Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[John F. Eldredge]

I am dubious about tagging the artists that the gallery represents, 
since this is likely to change on a fairly frequent basis.  My 
impression is that most exhibitions are only for a period of a week or 
two, meaning that the tag information would frequently be out of date.


On 02/03/2016 02:52 PM, Max wrote:

On 2016년 02월 03일 10:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

I'd prefer amenity=museum, but I see that putting it under the tourism
key is quite established so it would have to be discussed if a change
would make sense (if it hurts less to do this change one and forever or
if it is better to bear the little pain when putting tourism=museum as
main tag on a museum).

I would be more explicit with the key names, to avoid situations like
amenity=parking, parking=surface, surface=asphalt ;-)

amenity (or tourism)=museum
museum_type (or museum_for or museum:topic or ...) = art / railway /
history / war / mathematics / ...
art_form = painting / photography / sculpture / prints / 
art_genre = still_life / landscape / portrait / religious /  (if
applicable, many collections will be more diverse, but some might be
specialized)
art_style = expressionism / futurism / impressionism / mannerism / ...
(if applicable)


So we are now at:
tourism=museum (nicer would be amenity, but for the sake of not changing
too much)
museum:topic= art / railway / history / war / mathematics / ...
art_form = painting / photography / sculpture / video / 
art_genre = still_life / landscape / portrait / religious /  (if
applicable, many collections will be more diverse, but some might be
specialized)
art_style = expressionism / futurism / impressionism / mannerism / ...


Additionally
amenity=contemporary_art_gallery

and
shop=art

That sounds good to me.
Maybe we should have a way to add the names of the artist this gallery
represents?

Are there any objections to this?

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 1 February 2016 at 20:56, Dave F  wrote:
> Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum

I'm still a bit confused by this. Would you consider the MoMA a
gallery and/or a museum?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 1 February 2016 at 22:50, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> On Mon Feb 1 21:44:50 2016 GMT, ael wrote:
>> On Mon, Feb 01, 2016 at 07:56:22PM +, Dave F wrote:
>> > Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum
>>
>> +1
>> ael
>>
> +2
> The wiki should reflect the tags mappers use, not dictate to them.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)

I'm still a bit confused by this statement, and I'm not sure whether
all of you mean the same by it, so the same question for ael and Phil:
Would you consider places like the MoMA galleries and/or museums?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 3 February 2016 at 21:52, Max  wrote:
> So we are now at:
> tourism=museum (nicer would be amenity, but for the sake of not changing
> too much)
> museum:topic= art / railway / history / war / mathematics / ...
> art_form = painting / photography / sculpture / video / 
> art_genre = still_life / landscape / portrait / religious /  (if
> applicable, many collections will be more diverse, but some might be
> specialized)
> art_style = expressionism / futurism / impressionism / mannerism / ...

I think such a specific subdivision would be useful, but I'm under the
impression that the more complex a proposal grows, the larger the
chance it will be rejected. I am therefore not planning to include
this in the proposal. Feel free to propose it yourself, or just start
using it, though.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 9 February 2016 at 00:02, Max  wrote:
> The Moma is a Museum.

Please keep in mind that this is your personal definition - and
perhaps the definition of the people in your field. But that's not
necessarily the definition of the average English speaker. For
example, Wikipedia calls the following museums all art galleries in
their first line:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber_Institute_of_Fine_Arts
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tate_Modern
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Portrait_Gallery,_London

I don't think either fit your definition. You could say Wikipedia is
wrong here, but I think it does show that English speakers use the
term 'art gallery' in this sense of the word too.

Are you British yourself, by the way?

> For actual (contemporary) art galleries we should introduce
> amenity=art_gallery or something similar.

I don't think this would help, for example Birmigham has the
'Birmingham Museum & Art Gallery' which is certainly not an art
gallery in your sense of the word.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Moma is a Museum.

By the current definition of the OSM wiki it should be tagged
tourism=gallery

Because this is confusing I support the move to remove tourism=gallery
entirely and make it museum.

For actual (contemporary) art galleries we should introduce
amenity=art_gallery or something similar.

max


On 2016년 02월 08일 23:54, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> On 1 February 2016 at 20:56, Dave F 
> wrote:
>> Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum
> 
> I'm still a bit confused by this. Would you consider the MoMA a 
> gallery and/or a museum?
> 
> -- Matthijs
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Matthijs Melissen]

Continued here:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2016-February/028479.html

-- Matthijs

On 1 February 2016 at 20:28, Matthijs Melissen  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have created a proposal to discourage the tag tourism=gallery,
> suggesting either shop=art or tourism=museum as an alternative.
>
> The proposal can be found here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Discourage_tourism%3Dgallery
>
> Please let me know what you think.
>
> -- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-03 6:57 GMT+01:00 althio :

> In more details:
>
> For museums, including art museums (collection of works):
> tourism = museum
> + museum = art / railway / history / ...
> + art = painting / photography / ...
> [no tourism = gallery]
>


I'd prefer amenity=museum, but I see that putting it under the tourism key
is quite established so it would have to be discussed if a change would
make sense (if it hurts less to do this change one and forever or if it is
better to bear the little pain when putting tourism=museum as main tag on a
museum).

I would be more explicit with the key names, to avoid situations like
amenity=parking, parking=surface, surface=asphalt ;-)

amenity (or tourism)=museum
museum_type (or museum_for or museum:topic or ...) = art / railway /
history / war / mathematics / ...
art_form = painting / photography / sculpture / prints / 
art_genre = still_life / landscape / portrait / religious /  (if
applicable, many collections will be more diverse, but some might be
specialized)
art_style = expressionism / futurism / impressionism / mannerism / ...  (if
applicable)


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-02 23:17 GMT+01:00 Max :

> > both, the two examples above, as the first two  examples on the link,
> > clearly show that the word gallery has multiple meanings:
> >
> >   * Many galleries display the art prints without prices - hoping to get
> > more easily into an e-mail contact with their visitors.
> >   * The new renaissance and baroque galleries at the Waiters Art Museum,
> > Baltimore, include rooms that resemble those of a
> > seventeenth-century Dutch nobleman.
>
> I can understand where the confusion is coming from, but it is actually
> not really hard to distinguish.
>
> The art gallery is an important part of the art business. There is the
> gallerist whose job it is to find promising artists to invest in. The
> gallerist works with the artist to promote the artist and is selling the
> artworks of the artist. Usually the gallerist has a contract with the
> artist that grants the gallerist the right to represent this artist for
> a country or continent.
>
> For the layman it might be confusing that there are museums which also
> call some of their rooms a gallery, or even the whole museum is called
> gallery. This however is just because in this context gallery is used as
> a synonym for exhibition space.




+1, I completely agree and am not confused at all (I am frequently visiting
galleries myself).



> Here it is more the architectural sense
> of the word gallery, just like it can be used for things that are
> balcony like.
>


that's yet another meaning I think (might be that these spaces have
historically been used to put up paintings and that the museum usage is
coming from there, but the word is now used for a type of architectural
element independently of art being shown or not). These would likely be
tagged differently (building:part=gallery etc.) so they don't pose a
problem.




>
> If an artist says something like: "Next month I'll show my work in a
> gallery in Paris" you can safely assume that the art gallery of the
> first kind is what is referred to.
>


sure



>
> Sure, in a seruous gallery you will not find pricetags on the works. If
> you do see them, that's a sign it might be just what is described as
> shop=art in the wiki. Why? because the gallery will either have a
> separate sheet of paper with the prices and the list of works, or the
> gallerist prefers to negociate individually with the clients.
>
>

+1, typically either separate pricelists (on request) or individual
negotiation.




> So your examples are not confusing at all. That there is no price tag,
> is no indicator that it is a museum.
>


+1, I didn't mean to say these examples (btw., they're your examples, they
are the examples from your dictionary link) were confusing, I wrote they
are proving that the word "gallery" is used for different things. The
problem is that the tag "tourism=gallery" or "amenity=gallery" don't tell
you which kind of gallery is meant. Intuitively I would have said it's the
first type (gallery as part of the contemporary art discourse, works for
sale), but as the wiki defines it as the second type (museum type), it is
clear that we will have problems with this tag to know what was meant.

Maybe we can use more explicit values, e.g.
"amenity=contemporary_art_gallery" for the first type? This is admittedly
quite a long tag, but it is much more verbose about what is actually
tagged, and would lead to less wrong tagging I guess. My stance for the
museum art galleries is to tag them as museums and subtype.



Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 03일 10:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I'd prefer amenity=museum, but I see that putting it under the tourism
> key is quite established so it would have to be discussed if a change
> would make sense (if it hurts less to do this change one and forever or
> if it is better to bear the little pain when putting tourism=museum as
> main tag on a museum).
> 
> I would be more explicit with the key names, to avoid situations like
> amenity=parking, parking=surface, surface=asphalt ;-)
> 
> amenity (or tourism)=museum
> museum_type (or museum_for or museum:topic or ...) = art / railway /
> history / war / mathematics / ...
> art_form = painting / photography / sculpture / prints / 
> art_genre = still_life / landscape / portrait / religious /  (if
> applicable, many collections will be more diverse, but some might be
> specialized)
> art_style = expressionism / futurism / impressionism / mannerism / ... 
> (if applicable)


So we are now at:
tourism=museum (nicer would be amenity, but for the sake of not changing
too much)
museum:topic= art / railway / history / war / mathematics / ...
art_form = painting / photography / sculpture / video / 
art_genre = still_life / landscape / portrait / religious /  (if
applicable, many collections will be more diverse, but some might be
specialized)
art_style = expressionism / futurism / impressionism / mannerism / ...


Additionally
amenity=contemporary_art_gallery

and
shop=art

That sounds good to me.
Maybe we should have a way to add the names of the artist this gallery
represents?

Are there any objections to this?

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 02일 04:16, Warin wrote:
> No. OSM amenity - important facilities.

LOL. you mean important facilities like
bar, bbq, biergarten, ice_cream, brothel, casino, cinema, gambling,
nightclub, stripclub, swingerclub, dojo, game_feeding,

> Tourism is the correct key in this instance, a place that provides 
> visual pleasure.

Hm. could probably be said about a stripclub too.
As an artist, I must say that when I go to a museum or gallery it is
mostly work.
For almost anyone I know it is too. I don't think many people of the
typical gallery visitors would agree with "tourism". Investment,
research, inspiration, socializing, networking, business, scouting would
all fit just as well - or better - as tourism does.

m.




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 02일 04:16, Warin wrote:
>> However, the English word "Gallery" doesn't seem to have this specific
>> meaning. Merriam-Webster includes "sculptures, etc"
>> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gallery
> 
> Picking nits;
> Merriam-Webster is American English.
> OSM policy is to use British English ... so the Oxford Dictionary should
> be used.

Right.

https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gallery
https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/museum

Gallery: A room or building for the display or sale of works of art: an
art gallery the National Gallery

Museum: A building in which objects of historical, scientific, artistic,
or cultural interest are stored and exhibited: [as name]: the Museum of
Modern Art

Also the British English is contradicting the use in OSM and the
definition in the OSM wiki where museum is non-art only and Gallery is a
Museum for art. That seems completely made up. Thanks Matthijs for
bringing this conversation up. Now how do we fix it?

M.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 02.02.2016 um 19:36 schrieb Max :
> https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gallery
> 
> Gallery: A room or building for the display or sale of works of art: an
> art gallery the National Gallery


both, the two examples above, as the first two  examples on the link, clearly 
show that the word gallery has multiple meanings:

Many galleries display the art prints without prices - hoping to get more 
easily into an e-mail contact with their visitors.
The new renaissance and baroque galleries at the Waiters Art Museum, Baltimore, 
include rooms that resemble those of a seventeenth-century Dutch nobleman.


how do you propose we should deal with this? Use the same tag for both kinds of 
gallery? use it only for one type and use another tag for the other type 
(which?)


> 
> Also the British English is contradicting the use in OSM and the
> definition in the OSM wiki where museum is non-art only and Gallery is a
> Museum for art.


yes, while tags are not entirely the same thing as is natural language, they 
tend to be used in a way that is deducted from the meaning of the words. Trying 
to establish definitions that go against the actual meaning of the words will 
not work.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Warin]

On 2/02/2016 8:06 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


Am 02.02.2016 um 05:31 schrieb Greg Troxel :

Another type of exhibit venue is a room in a local library that
typically doesn't charge the artist or get involved in sales (the artist
puts up contact information); it's just free exhibit space for the sake
of having more art on display and supporting artists (who are viewed as
worthy of government charity).


in this case I'd prefer to use a main tag for the room (either area or node), 
amenity=exhibition_space (i.e. you locate it inside the bigger structure that 
contains it)



In this example the main function is a library. Any wall space within the 
library can then be used to display art. The 'exhibition space' is scattered .. 
not a simple single area.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 02일 20:54, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> both, the two examples above, as the first two  examples on the link,
> clearly show that the word gallery has multiple meanings:
> 
>   * Many galleries display the art prints without prices - hoping to get
> more easily into an e-mail contact with their visitors.
>   * The new renaissance and baroque galleries at the Waiters Art Museum,
> Baltimore, include rooms that resemble those of a
> seventeenth-century Dutch nobleman.

I can understand where the confusion is coming from, but it is actually
not really hard to distinguish.

The art gallery is an important part of the art business. There is the
gallerist whose job it is to find promising artists to invest in. The
gallerist works with the artist to promote the artist and is selling the
artworks of the artist. Usually the gallerist has a contract with the
artist that grants the gallerist the right to represent this artist for
a country or continent.

For the layman it might be confusing that there are museums which also
call some of their rooms a gallery, or even the whole museum is called
gallery. This however is just because in this context gallery is used as
a synonym for exhibition space. Here it is more the architectural sense
of the word gallery, just like it can be used for things that are
balcony like.

If an artist says something like: "Next month I'll show my work in a
gallery in Paris" you can safely assume that the art gallery of the
first kind is what is referred to.

Sure, in a seruous gallery you will not find pricetags on the works. If
you do see them, that's a sign it might be just what is described as
shop=art in the wiki. Why? because the gallery will either have a
separate sheet of paper with the prices and the list of works, or the
gallerist prefers to negociate individually with the clients.

So your examples are not confusing at all. That there is no price tag,
is no indicator that it is a museum.
The second example is clearly using the word gallery in the
architectural or exhibition space sense, but that doesn't make it an art
gallery. It's a museum (which has some thematic rooms/exhibition spaces
a.k.a. "galleries").

Does it make sense?

Max




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[althio]

How about...
- tourism = museum
- shop = artwork
- shop = *

In more details:

For museums, including art museums (collection of works):
tourism = museum
+ museum = art / railway / history / ...
+ art = painting / photography / ...
[no tourism = gallery]

For galleries (showing art works, with exhibition and sales):
shop = artwork
+ artwork = painting / photography / ...
(note: we have also tourism = artwork for public pieces of art, not for
sale)

For "art shops":
shop = interior_decoration / furniture / carpet / antiques / ...

- althio
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

Am 02.02.2016 um 04:16 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

>>> 2 problems with tourism=gallery: it is not clear, which kind of gallery
>>> is intended,
> 
> Many many key/values are not precise in what is intended. That is why 'sub 
> keys' are used.
> 'Sub keys' like width, height add detail. If you think a gallery needs more 
> detail, add sub keys to it!


no, I think there are lots of meanings for the word "gallery", ranging from 
architecture over mining,  to kind of museum to private exhibition spaces that 
are part of the contemporary art discourse. The latter 2 are IMHO different 
enough to not put them under the same main tag.



> 
>>>  and either way "tourism" is not a nice key for these
>>> (neither is it for museums).
> 
> A 'nice key'?
> 
> Tourism? Visiting a place for pleasure? Looks to be the correct key to me!


it's rather constricting, to me museums are not in the first place a kind of 
leisure institution but more for heritage and education. 


> 
>> What would be a proper way to tag this?
>> 
>> 
>> amenity=museum
>> museum=art
>> 
>> 
>> ?
> 
> No. OSM amenity - important facilities.
> 


IMHO museums are important facilities.


cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Steve Doerr]

On 01/02/2016 22:15, Dave F wrote:


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/museum#Noun




See also this definition and note in the OED under 'museum':

'2. a. A building or institution in which objects of historical, 
scientific, artistic, or cultural interest are preserved and exhibited. 
Also: the collection of objects held by such an institution.


'Although a museum may include a library or art gallery, the word is not 
(in British use) normally applied to an institution in which either of 
these is the sole or most prominent feature. However, in continental 
Europe the corresponding word is often used to denote an art collection, 
and when so used is usually rendered museum in English (cf. musée n. 
). Similarly, in the 
United States, museum is sometimes used for art museum'.


It seems to me that the wiki was attempting to preserve the British 
English distinction between a museum and a gallery, and the latest 
changes have moved it in the direction of American and European usage.


--
Steve

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 02.02.2016 um 05:31 schrieb Greg Troxel :
> 
> Finally, there's a fourth entity, sort of, venues that are something
> else but also exhibit art.  This happens both commerically an
> non-commercially.
> 
> There is a restaurant near me that has a different artist each month,
> with the artist selecting works and hanging them.  


+1, good point 
I d make this an attribute and not change the main tag for the venue in this 
case. S.th. like shows_art=yes (but is opening a can of worms: what is "true 
art", and what is the simulation of art).

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 02.02.2016 um 05:31 schrieb Greg Troxel :
> 
> Another type of exhibit venue is a room in a local library that
> typically doesn't charge the artist or get involved in sales (the artist
> puts up contact information); it's just free exhibit space for the sake
> of having more art on display and supporting artists (who are viewed as
> worthy of government charity).


in this case I'd prefer to use a main tag for the room (either area or node), 
amenity=exhibition_space (i.e. you locate it inside the bigger structure that 
contains it)

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Dave F]

Neither are really a direct alternative

Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum

Just because there are fewer 'gallery' than museum doesn't make it 
incorrect.


Just because galleries may be incorrectly tagged a 'museum' doesn't make 
them incorrect.


A shop selling art could be a sub tag of gallery (or maybe the other way 
around?)


I see no reason for discouraging tourism=galley.

Dave F.


On 01/02/2016 19:28, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

Hi all,

I have created a proposal to discourage the tag tourism=gallery,
suggesting either shop=art or tourism=museum as an alternative.

The proposal can be found here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Discourage_tourism%3Dgallery

Please let me know what you think.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 1 February 2016 at 22:17, Max  wrote:
> Those are clearly museums, not galleries and they are correctly tagged
> as museums. Sorry to say this, but that sentence clearly shows OP has
> not understand what a gellery is. The wiki pages for tourism=gallery,
> and shop=art do explain nicely what the difference is between those.

Thanks for your useful comments.

I'm not sure if I fully understand your explanation. How would you
categorize the following examples:

* http://www.mudam.lu/en/le-musee/la-collection/currently-at-mudam/
* http://www.whitewallgalleries.com/
* https://www.bcee.lu/en/Discover-BCEE/Discover-BCEE/The-'Am-Tunnel'-art-gallery

I'm not sure if I ever saw an art shop of the type you described. Do
you have any example of these, perhaps a URL?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

Browsing in the wiki I can see where all the confusion comes from.
Basically the wiki is saying that anything showing art is a gallery,
while the word museum is reserved for science and history.

Obviously that's not the case and should be fixed.


On 2016년 02월 01일 23:40, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> On 1 February 2016 at 20:28, Matthijs Melissen  
> wrote:
>> I have created a proposal to discourage the tag tourism=gallery,
>> suggesting either shop=art or tourism=museum as an alternative.
>>
>> The proposal can be found here:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Discourage_tourism%3Dgallery
> 
> Note that this proposal is exactly the proposal althio formulated
> here: 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2016-January/028265.html
> In that thread it got a lot of support. Interesting how rapidly the
> hive-mind can change opinions...
> 
> -- Matthijs
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[ael]

On Mon, Feb 01, 2016 at 07:56:22PM +, Dave F wrote:
> Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum
 
+1
ael


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

No, that's not the difference.

A museum is an institution which shows art works so that the public can
see them. The art works are usually by established artists. Shows are
curated thematically by curators.

A gallery is showing art to the public. There is the possibility of
purchase, but it is only a tiny fraction of the audience which actually
is buying. The works are by artists the gallery represents. Shows are
designed by the artist (with help or in collaboration with the gallerist).

An art shop is selling art(sy things). Visiting without buying is
possible, just as you may walk through a supermarket without buying
anything. The artworks are for sale are usually more on the craft side
of the arts. They are of decorative nature and not of considerable worth
on the art market. Art works may end there as second hand goods. The
producers of these art works may not even know their work is in the
shop. There is no special exhibition, concept or theme other than the
intent of selling the goods.




On 2016년 02월 01일 22:49, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> I always thought that an Art Gallery is a specific type of museum, i.e.
> an Art Museum. It can also mean a shop that exhibits and sells art.
> Hence tourism=gallery seems a good way indicate an Art Museum or Art
> Gallery, in line with tourism=museum. A shop that exhibits art with the
> main aim of selling it is clearly a shop=art.
> 
> Volker
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Volker Schmidt]

I always thought that an Art Gallery is a specific type of museum, i.e. an
Art Museum. It can also mean a shop that exhibits and sells art.
Hence tourism=gallery seems a good way indicate an Art Museum or Art
Gallery, in line with tourism=museum. A shop that exhibits art with the
main aim of selling it is clearly a shop=art.

Volker
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon Feb 1 21:44:50 2016 GMT, ael wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 01, 2016 at 07:56:22PM +, Dave F wrote:
> > Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum
>  
> +1
> ael
> 
+2
The wiki should reflect the tags mappers use, not dictate to them.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 1 February 2016 at 20:56, Dave F  wrote:
> Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum

Note that the wiki currently states: 'Note that art galleries very
often have the word "museum" in the name. Despite this, if they are
primarily displaying art, they should probably take the tag
tourism=gallery'.

It is not clear whether you (and the people agreeing with you) do or
do not agree that this statement in the wiki is correct.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[althio]

> > > Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum
> >
> > +1
> > ael
> >
> +2
> The wiki should reflect the tags mappers use, not dictate to them.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)

Wiki is not clear at all.
"An art gallery (or art museum) is […]"
I don't understand why you seem to support the wiki in this current state.

- althio
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 02일 00:03, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> On 1 February 2016 at 22:17, Max  wrote:
>> Those are clearly museums, not galleries and they are correctly tagged
>> as museums. Sorry to say this, but that sentence clearly shows OP has
>> not understand what a gellery is. The wiki pages for tourism=gallery,
>> and shop=art do explain nicely what the difference is between those.
> 
> Thanks for your useful comments.
Sorry if it sounded harsh.

> I'm not sure if I fully understand your explanation. How would you
> categorize the following examples:
> 
> * http://www.mudam.lu/en/le-musee/la-collection/currently-at-mudam/
That's clearly a museum. On the page you see that the Museum has a
collection. The museum aquires works from artists for their collection.
Galleries don't do that. If museums do sell from their collection (this
happens one in a while) it is a major scandal.
You can also define it by their business model. They ask for donations.
Another indicator that it's a museum, galleries would not do this
either, because they live off the (usually 50%) fee of their sales.

> * http://www.whitewallgalleries.com/
That is a gallery. At least that's their self understanding. It is
selling crap IMHO, but let's not get into that. It seems quite
commercial, shop=art seems fair for this one as well.

> * 
> https://www.bcee.lu/en/Discover-BCEE/Discover-BCEE/The-'Am-Tunnel'-art-gallery
I would tag this as museum, not gallery. The word gallery is sometimes
used in a museum as a synonym for exhibition hall. In this case it is a
showroom for the aquisitions of a bank. It is not the intent of the
exhibition to resell these works. That said, showing the work usually
makes the work more valuable, so it is in the interest of the owner to
display the works (or lend them, sometimes permanently, to a museum).

> I'm not sure if I ever saw an art shop of the type you described. Do
> you have any example of these, perhaps a URL?

the picture in the wiki for shop=art is a good example.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

I second this. Gallery, Museum and a shop that sells art are completely
different things.

"I had a look at some famous galleries: the MoMA in New York, the Uffizi
in Florence, the National Gallery of Art in Washington DC, the Van Gogh
Museum in Amsterdam, the Musée d'Orsay in Paris, and the Guggenheim
Museum in Bilbao."

Those are clearly museums, not galleries and they are correctly tagged
as museums. Sorry to say this, but that sentence clearly shows OP has
not understand what a gellery is. The wiki pages for tourism=gallery,
and shop=art do explain nicely what the difference is between those.

Source: I'm an art professor.
m.


On 2016년 02월 01일 20:56, Dave F wrote:
> Neither are really a direct alternative
> 
> Sorry, but a gallery is not a museum
> 
> Just because there are fewer 'gallery' than museum doesn't make it
> incorrect.
> 
> Just because galleries may be incorrectly tagged a 'museum' doesn't make
> them incorrect.
> 
> A shop selling art could be a sub tag of gallery (or maybe the other way
> around?)
> 
> I see no reason for discouraging tourism=galley.
> 
> Dave F.
> 
> 
> On 01/02/2016 19:28, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have created a proposal to discourage the tag tourism=gallery,
>> suggesting either shop=art or tourism=museum as an alternative.
>>
>> The proposal can be found here:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Discourage_tourism%3Dgallery
>>
>>
>> Please let me know what you think.
>>
>> -- Matthijs
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 02일 00:38, Max wrote:
> Browsing in the wiki I can see where all the confusion comes from.
> Basically the wiki is saying that anything showing art is a gallery,
> while the word museum is reserved for science and history.

Ironically the image in the wiki for tourism=museum shows the national
GALLERY. (which should be tagged museum, but the national gallery is
showing art which the wiki is not mentioning, only "exhibitions on
scientific, historical, cultural topics")
It's a mess.

> Obviously that's not the case and should be fixed.

I think there is a need for sub tags in tourism=museum so that we can
distinguish between a science, history, tech, or art museum.





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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Dave F]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/museum#Noun


On 01/02/2016 21:49, Volker Schmidt wrote:
I always thought that an Art Gallery is a specific type of museum, 
i.e. an Art Museum. It can also mean a shop that exhibits and sells art.
Hence tourism=gallery seems a good way indicate an Art Museum or Art 
Gallery, in line with tourism=museum. A shop that exhibits art with 
the main aim of selling it is clearly a shop=art.


Volker



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Colin Smale]

Thanks Max - that sounds clear and objective to me, and from an informed
source. 

Why don't we just copy this text to the wiki so (with a bit of luck)
newly tagged museums/galleries/shops will follow this pattern. Then we
can discuss the relative merits of a wholesale retagging of the "legacy"
objects, or whether it is better to leave the existing tags in place. 

//colin

On 2016-02-01 23:10, Max wrote:

> No, that's not the difference.
> 
> A museum is an institution which shows art works so that the public can
> see them. The art works are usually by established artists. Shows are
> curated thematically by curators.
> 
> A gallery is showing art to the public. There is the possibility of
> purchase, but it is only a tiny fraction of the audience which actually
> is buying. The works are by artists the gallery represents. Shows are
> designed by the artist (with help or in collaboration with the gallerist).
> 
> An art shop is selling art(sy things). Visiting without buying is
> possible, just as you may walk through a supermarket without buying
> anything. The artworks are for sale are usually more on the craft side
> of the arts. They are of decorative nature and not of considerable worth
> on the art market. Art works may end there as second hand goods. The
> producers of these art works may not even know their work is in the
> shop. There is no special exhibition, concept or theme other than the
> intent of selling the goods.
> 
> On 2016년 02월 01일 22:49, Volker Schmidt wrote: 
> 
>> I always thought that an Art Gallery is a specific type of museum, i.e.
>> an Art Museum. It can also mean a shop that exhibits and sells art.
>> Hence tourism=gallery seems a good way indicate an Art Museum or Art
>> Gallery, in line with tourism=museum. A shop that exhibits art with the
>> main aim of selling it is clearly a shop=art.
>> 
>> Volker
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

I've edited it a bit:

An art museum is an institution which shows artworks so that the public
can see them. The artworks are usually by established artists. Shows are
developed with a concept by curators. Artworks are from the museums
collection or on loan from other museums, galleries or private
collectors. The business model of an museum is based on public funding,
donations and ticket sales. Exhibitions are permanent collections and
temporary special exhibitions which run for a couple of months.
Depending on the available space, permanent and temporary exhibitions
are often simultaneously on display (in different rooms or levels).

A gallery is showing art to the public. There is the possibility of
purchase, but it is only a tiny fraction of the audience which actually
is buying. The works are by artists the gallery represents. Shows are
designed by the artist (with help or in collaboration with the
gallerist). Am exhibition consists typically of new work by the artist
is usually on display for a couple of weeks only. The business model of
an art gallery is based on the sales from the art. A gallery usually
gets a cut of up to 50% of the price of the artwork and is doing the
dealings with the art collector.

An art shop is selling art(sy things). Visiting without buying is
possible, just as you may walk through a supermarket without buying
anything. The artworks are for sale may be more on the craft side
of the arts. They usually are of decorative nature and not of
considerable worth on the art market.
Artworks may end there as second hand goods. The
producers of these artworks may not even know their work is in the
shop. There is no special exhibition, concept or theme other than the
intent of selling the goods.


On 2016년 02월 01일 23:24, Colin Smale wrote:
> Thanks Max - that sounds clear and objective to me, and from an informed
> source.
> 
> Why don't we just copy this text to the wiki so (with a bit of luck)
> newly tagged museums/galleries/shops will follow this pattern. Then we
> can discuss the relative merits of a wholesale retagging of the "legacy"
> objects, or whether it is better to leave the existing tags in place.
> 
> //colin
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> On 2016-02-01 23:10, Max wrote:
> 
>> No, that's not the difference.
>>
>> A museum is an institution which shows art works so that the public can
>> see them. The art works are usually by established artists. Shows are
>> curated thematically by curators.
>>
>> A gallery is showing art to the public. There is the possibility of
>> purchase, but it is only a tiny fraction of the audience which actually
>> is buying. The works are by artists the gallery represents. Shows are
>> designed by the artist (with help or in collaboration with the gallerist).
>>
>> An art shop is selling art(sy things). Visiting without buying is
>> possible, just as you may walk through a supermarket without buying
>> anything. The artworks are for sale are usually more on the craft side
>> of the arts. They are of decorative nature and not of considerable worth
>> on the art market. Art works may end there as second hand goods. The
>> producers of these art works may not even know their work is in the
>> shop. There is no special exhibition, concept or theme other than the
>> intent of selling the goods.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2016년 02월 01일 22:49, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>>> I always thought that an Art Gallery is a specific type of museum, i.e.
>>> an Art Museum. It can also mean a shop that exhibits and sells art.
>>> Hence tourism=gallery seems a good way indicate an Art Museum or Art
>>> Gallery, in line with tourism=museum. A shop that exhibits art with the
>>> main aim of selling it is clearly a shop=art.
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-02 0:57 GMT+01:00 Max :

> Ironically the image in the wiki for tourism=museum shows the national
> GALLERY. (which should be tagged museum, but the national gallery is
> showing art which the wiki is not mentioning, only "exhibitions on
> scientific, historical, cultural topics")
> It's a mess.
>
> > Obviously that's not the case and should be fixed.
>
> I think there is a need for sub tags in tourism=museum so that we can
> distinguish between a science, history, tech, or art museum.
>


actually if you call a gallery like the national gallery or the
Gemäldegalerie in Berlin an "art museum", you are not wrong, but you loose
one level of detail: a gallery as a kind of art museum only collects and
exhibits paintings, while more generic art museums might collect anything
related to art, like sculptures, video, paintings, prints, ...

2 problems with tourism=gallery: it is not clear, which kind of gallery is
intended, and either way "tourism" is not a nice key for these (neither is
it for museums).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 02일 01:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I think there is a need for sub tags in tourism=museum so that we can
> distinguish between a science, history, tech, or art museum.
> 
> actually if you call a gallery like the national gallery or the
> Gemäldegalerie in Berlin an "art museum", you are not wrong, but you
> loose one level of detail: a gallery as a kind of art museum only
> collects and exhibits paintings, while more generic art museums might
> collect anything related to art, like sculptures, video, paintings,
> prints, ...

I believe the German word "Galerie" is a short form for Gemäldegalerie
which is a place where paintings are on display.

However, the English word "Gallery" doesn't seem to have this specific
meaning. Mirriam-Webster includes "sculptures, etc"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gallery

> 2 problems with tourism=gallery: it is not clear, which kind of gallery
> is intended, and either way "tourism" is not a nice key for these
> (neither is it for museums).

What would be a proper way to tag this?


amenity=museum
museum=art


?





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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Warin]

On 2/02/2016 1:56 PM, Max wrote:


On 2016년 02월 02일 01:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

 I think there is a need for sub tags in tourism=museum so that we can
 distinguish between a science, history, tech, or art museum.

actually if you call a gallery like the national gallery or the
Gemäldegalerie in Berlin an "art museum", you are not wrong, but you
loose one level of detail: a gallery as a kind of art museum only
collects and exhibits paintings, while more generic art museums might
collect anything related to art, like sculptures, video, paintings,
prints, ...

I believe the German word "Galerie" is a short form for Gemäldegalerie
which is a place where paintings are on display.

However, the English word "Gallery" doesn't seem to have this specific
meaning. Mirriam-Webster includes "sculptures, etc"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gallery


Picking nits;
Mirriam-Webster is American English.
OSM policy is to use British English ... so the Oxford Dictionary should be 
used.




2 problems with tourism=gallery: it is not clear, which kind of gallery
is intended,


Many many key/values are not precise in what is intended. That is why 'sub 
keys' are used.
'Sub keys' like width, height add detail. If you think a gallery needs more 
detail, add sub keys to it!


  and either way "tourism" is not a nice key for these
(neither is it for museums).


A 'nice key'?

Tourism? Visiting a place for pleasure? Looks to be the correct key to me!


What would be a proper way to tag this?


amenity=museum
museum=art


?


No. OSM amenity - important facilities.

Tourism is the correct key in this instance, a place that provides visual 
pleasure.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Greg Troxel]

Max  writes:

> An art museum is an institution which shows artworks so that the public
> can see them. The artworks are usually by established artists. Shows are
> developed with a concept by curators. Artworks are from the museums
> collection or on loan from other museums, galleries or private
> collectors. The business model of an museum is based on public funding,
> donations and ticket sales. Exhibitions are permanent collections and
> temporary special exhibitions which run for a couple of months.
> Depending on the available space, permanent and temporary exhibitions
> are often simultaneously on display (in different rooms or levels).
>
> A gallery is showing art to the public. There is the possibility of
> purchase, but it is only a tiny fraction of the audience which actually
> is buying. The works are by artists the gallery represents. Shows are
> designed by the artist (with help or in collaboration with the
> gallerist). Am exhibition consists typically of new work by the artist
> is usually on display for a couple of weeks only. The business model of
> an art gallery is based on the sales from the art. A gallery usually
> gets a cut of up to 50% of the price of the artwork and is doing the
> dealings with the art collector.
>
> An art shop is selling art(sy things). Visiting without buying is
> possible, just as you may walk through a supermarket without buying
> anything. The artworks are for sale may be more on the craft side
> of the arts. They usually are of decorative nature and not of
> considerable worth on the art market.
> Artworks may end there as second hand goods. The
> producers of these artworks may not even know their work is in the
> shop. There is no special exhibition, concept or theme other than the
> intent of selling the goods.

Most of the discussion participants seem European, so I wanted to chime
in that Max's dividing lines and rationale for these three things seem
100% right to me, as an American who visits Museums, has visited
galleries, sometimes on the invitation of exhibiting artists, and has
exhibited as an artist (photography, hobby).

I find the distinction above between gallery and shop=art to be somewhat
like amenity=cafe and amenity=fast_food.  I get the point about artist
curation in galleries, but in my view the key question is would another
artist consider it the kind of place that usually has proper art, vs a
Thomas Kincaid shop or a place with framed touristy posters, so there is
a significant aspect of a quality dividing line.

There's also a vague notion that works in a gallery are probably on
consignment (owned by the artist until a sale), whereas in a shop=art
they are more likely bought to be inventory.



Finally, there's a fourth entity, sort of, venues that are something
else but also exhibit art.  This happens both commerically an
non-commercially.

There is a restaurant near me that has a different artist each month,
with the artist selecting works and hanging them.  Unlike most
galleries, there is no commission; the restaurant owner both wants to
support artists and (I believe) make the restaurant seem connected to
the local art scene to make it more attractive to diners.  Several other
restaurants similarly show art, and I suspect some of them take a
commission.

Another type of exhibit venue is a room in a local library that
typically doesn't charge the artist or get involved in sales (the artist
puts up contact information); it's just free exhibit space for the sake
of having more art on display and supporting artists (who are viewed as
worthy of government charity).

In both examples, there is a main thing, restaurant or library, which
happens to have art displayed at least sometimes, but that's a detail.
So they are definitely not tourism=gallery.  They might be
amenity=restaurant gallery=yes, much like wifi=yes.


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