subject:"\[Tagging\] housenumber on node and area"

On 29 May 2015 at 11:43, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:






 On 2015-05-29 11:58, pmailkeey . wrote:



 On 29 May 2015 at 07:34, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:



Only Royal Mail think Chepstow is in Gloucestershire, England. Normal
 people think it is in Monmouthshire, Wales. This is the correct postal
 address:

 1 Bigstone Meadow
 Tutshill
 CHEPSTOW
 NP16 7JU


 And as expected, no mention of county or country - which RM just don't
 use. I'm not sure why you say RM thinks it's in Glocs since it's a Welsh
 PostCode.


   The house is in Gloucestershire. RM say it is in Chepstow, which is in
 Wales, but according to RM this bit of Chepstow is in Glocs.


Geographically, Tutshill is not in Chepstow, it's near Chepstow.

1 Bigstone Meadow
NP16 7JU

would easily reach the correct destination - as would 1 NP16 7JU


  (by  the way, I picked this address arbitrarily from the internet. I
 have friends in Tutshill (which is why I am aware of all the gory details
 here) but not at this address)


 My aunt lives in Norfolk. Her postcode is Peterborough, Cambridgeshire.


  Which just emphasises how confusing it all is. Peterborough is not in
 Cambridgeshire from an administrative perspective - it's a Unitary
 Authority, within the Ceremonial County of Cambridgeshire which lives on in
 people's minds and through the office of Lord Lieutenant. So is your aunt's
 house in Norfolk, Peterborough or Cambridgeshire? The answer is all of the
 above - it depends on your perspective.



It's arguably in WISBECH (postTown) (Cambridgeshire.)

But it isn't. Small village just outside Wisbech. Small village is spread
out enough to be in two counties.

For some strange reason, RM chose settlements rather than counties to
determine postcodes.


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-29 Thread Marc Gemis

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 11:33 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
wrote:

 Did you ever look at the example that I've send you ? (probably not
 because it doesn't fit in your idea of addresses)


 Probably !


  The house numbers are used to identity flats, not the building.


 Now you're confusing 'house numbers' with flat numbers !


No, they are not flat numbers.  see
http://osm.org/go/0EpD1Xa_M?m=relation=3899303
They are just a continuation from the numbers you see to the north. Number
9 does not exist. There is no common number to refer to the building.

Similarly in the Eduard Anseelestraat they just continue from the 89 to the
east and are followed by the house with number 107 to the west.

Sorry that the Belgian reality does not fit into your world model.

regards

m
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 29 May 2015 at 07:18, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:




 That's a circular definition. What is the actual difference between the
 two types of address, in your model?


Only 1 type of address, just attached to a different type object.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 29 May 2015 at 10:56, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:


 On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 11:33 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
 wrote:

 Did you ever look at the example that I've send you ? (probably not
 because it doesn't fit in your idea of addresses)


 Probably !


  The house numbers are used to identity flats, not the building.


 Now you're confusing 'house numbers' with flat numbers !


 No, they are not flat numbers.  see
 http://osm.org/go/0EpD1Xa_M?m=relation=3899303
 They are just a continuation from the numbers you see to the north. Number
 9 does not exist. There is no common number to refer to the building.

 Similarly in the Eduard Anseelestraat they just continue from the 89 to
 the east and are followed by the house with number 107 to the west.

 Sorry that the Belgian reality does not fit into your world model.



I know of buildings where the flat numbers are continuations of house
numbers. It's not a big deal for me. Actually, the one I'm thinking of are
not flats but apartments. 2 storey apartments, 4 storey building.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 29 May 2015 at 07:34, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:




 Postcodes don't have addresses, but addresses can have postcodes. I say
 can have and not have as addresses can exist without postcodes, for
 example when the local authority has named the roads in a new estate but
 the postcodes have not been allocated yet. You need to be able to talk
 about addresses with the utility companies so they can connect all the
 wires and pipes correctly and set up their backoffice systems for the new
 customers. The postcode is often not known at that stage.


Util cos have meter reference points and supply properties without
addresses - including those with 'known' but not confirmed postcodes -
based on existing addressed properties.


 Only Royal Mail think Chepstow is in Gloucestershire, England. Normal
 people think it is in Monmouthshire, Wales. This is the correct postal
 address:

 1 Bigstone Meadow
 Tutshill
 CHEPSTOW
 NP16 7JU


And as expected, no mention of county or country - which RM just don't use.
I'm not sure why you say RM thinks it's in Glocs since it's a Welsh
PostCode.


 (by  the way, I picked this address arbitrarily from the internet. I have
 friends in Tutshill (which is why I am aware of all the gory details here)
 but not at this address)



My aunt lives in Norfolk. Her postcode is Peterborough, Cambridgeshire.

-- 
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@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

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 pets*

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 29 May 2015 at 06:14, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:


 On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:39 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
 wrote:

 Addresses are used to identify buildings. Not all buildings need to be
 identified.


 Did you ever look at the example that I've send you ? (probably not
 because it doesn't fit in your idea of addresses)


Probably !


  The house numbers are used to identity flats, not the building.


Now you're confusing 'house numbers' with flat numbers !



 8 different house numbers, 4 on the ground floor, 4 on the first. I don't
 remember where the mailboxes are located, they are probably grouped
 somewhere on the ground floor so the mailman does not have to take the
 stairs. But someone delivering a package to the front door might want to
 know that they have to take the stair and then follow the corridor to the
 Xth door.


Use the query feature here
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.49451mlon=-1.87597#map=19/52.49451/-1.87597
for
an explanation.


 As many people have pointed out, addresses are used for many different
 things (mailboxes, entrances, buildings, rooms within building (e.g.
 Suite), parcels). But you keep on insisting on your view: address ==
 building.
 But then at a certain moment you said that an address could go on a node
 and on a building. And when someone asks you to explain that, you start
 throwing back questions without explaining what you meant.

 So please sit back, relax and accept that not everyone shares your view.
 Addresses will be mapped as nodes, on buildings and as interpolation lines.
 This is OSM, this is accepted and the data consumers can (or have to) live
 with that.


Also consider this
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=54.21007mlon=-3.27043#map=19/54.21007/-3.27043
scenario where the part-building has the address and the entrances have
further detail.



 have a nice Friday



So far so good. Off to chemist for 2 lots of pain killers and hospital for
getting my back xrayed. I may ask someone if they'd like a hand to build
submarines - wondering about cracking a joke re all their latest boats have
sunk !


-- 
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
 pets*

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-29 Thread Colin Smale

 

On 2015-05-29 11:58, pmailkeey . wrote: 

 On 29 May 2015 at 07:34, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:

 Only Royal Mail think Chepstow is in Gloucestershire, England. Normal people 
 think it is in Monmouthshire, Wales. This is the correct postal address: 
 
 1 Bigstone Meadow
 Tutshill
 CHEPSTOW
 NP16 7JU
 
 And as expected, no mention of county or country - which RM just don't use. 
 I'm not sure why you say RM thinks it's in Glocs since it's a Welsh PostCode.

The house is in Gloucestershire. RM say it is in Chepstow, which is in
Wales, but according to RM this bit of Chepstow is in Glocs. 

 (by the way, I picked this address arbitrarily from the internet. I have 
 friends in Tutshill (which is why I am aware of all the gory details here) 
 but not at this address)
 
 My aunt lives in Norfolk. Her postcode is Peterborough, Cambridgeshire.

Which just emphasises how confusing it all is. Peterborough is not in
Cambridgeshire from an administrative perspective - it's a Unitary
Authority, within the Ceremonial County of Cambridgeshire which lives on
in people's minds and through the office of Lord Lieutenant. So is your
aunt's house in Norfolk, Peterborough or Cambridgeshire? The answer is
all of the above - it depends on your perspective.

 -- 

Mike. 

@millomweb [2] - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland 
via THE AREA'S PREMIER WEBSITE -  

CURRENTLY UNAVAILABLE DUE TO ONGOING HARASSMENT OF ME, MY FAMILY,
PROPERTY  PETS 

TCs [3] 

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-29 Thread John Eldredge

Zip codes, in the USA, are the same way. They are intended for the post 
office's routing, and don't necessarily correspond to administrative 
divisions of the land. A given plot of land may be in one administrative 
division for tax purposes, yet be lumped into a neighboring division for 
mail-delivery purposes.




On May 29, 2015 7:34:20 AM Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:


On Fri, 2015-05-29 at 12:57 +0100, pmailkeey . wrote:


 For some strange reason, RM chose settlements rather than counties to
 determine postcodes.

They chose where the sorting offices were and from that where the lines
of communication went, that is why Market Bosworth (a long way inside
Leicestershire) has a Nuneaton, Warwickshire postcode/postal address and
why Barmouth on the Welsh coast has a Shrewsbury postcode.

Postcodes are a good way to deliver mail, they are pretty rubbish for
anything else.

Phil (trigpoint)




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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-29 Thread Philip Barnes

On Fri, 2015-05-29 at 12:57 +0100, pmailkeey . wrote:


 For some strange reason, RM chose settlements rather than counties to
 determine postcodes. 
 
They chose where the sorting offices were and from that where the lines
of communication went, that is why Market Bosworth (a long way inside
Leicestershire) has a Nuneaton, Warwickshire postcode/postal address and
why Barmouth on the Welsh coast has a Shrewsbury postcode.

Postcodes are a good way to deliver mail, they are pretty rubbish for
anything else.

Phil (trigpoint)




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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-28 Thread Marc Gemis

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:39 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
wrote:

 Addresses are used to identify buildings. Not all buildings need to be
 identified.


Did you ever look at the example that I've send you ? (probably not because
it doesn't fit in your idea of addresses)  The house numbers are used to
identity flats, not the building. 8 different house numbers, 4 on the
ground floor, 4 on the first. I don't remember where the mailboxes are
located, they are probably grouped somewhere on the ground floor so the
mailman does not have to take the stairs. But someone delivering a package
to the front door might want to know that they have to take the stair and
then follow the corridor to the Xth door.

As many people have pointed out, addresses are used for many different
things (mailboxes, entrances, buildings, rooms within building (e.g.
Suite), parcels). But you keep on insisting on your view: address ==
building.
But then at a certain moment you said that an address could go on a node
and on a building. And when someone asks you to explain that, you start
throwing back questions without explaining what you meant.

So please sit back, relax and accept that not everyone shares your view.
Addresses will be mapped as nodes, on buildings and as interpolation lines.
This is OSM, this is accepted and the data consumers can (or have to) live
with that.

have a nice Friday

m
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 28 May 2015 at 08:24, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:

 Mike, what's a node address and what's an area address (without
 resorting to circular definitions)? I have never seen a flag for this in
 any of the many address databases I have worked with.



Address on a node and address on an area ! ???




 On 2015-05-28 02:04, pmailkeey . wrote:



 On 28 May 2015 at 00:39, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:22 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
 wrote:
 
  In the US where there are mailboxes with the little flags on them it
 seems correct to put the address on the node for that box. Common sense
 really.

 Mike, you keep on insisting that addresses should always be put on an
 area and never on a node. Now here you say it's common sense and
 correct to put it on a node (that represents the mailbox). What is
 your position really?

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 Quite simply area addresses should be on the area and not a node and
 addresses for a node should be on the node.

 --
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  @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
 For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
 via *the area's premier website - *

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 property  pets*

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 28 May 2015 at 09:49, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:




 Addresses are just labels, with (in the general case) an N:M relation with
 areas. Addresses are not used to identify buildings, as that would imply
 that all buildings (even sheds and garages) would need their own address.


Addresses are used to identify buildings. Not all buildings need to be
identified.


 In multi-occupancy buildings (apartments, shared offices etc) each
 separately registered unit needs its own address (in order to ensure post
 etc is directed to the right party); the geometry of each unit can vary
 wildly, in three dimensions. A 1:1 relation between addresses and areas
 (actually volumes might be a better word here) is certainly very common,
 but not enough to cover the reality.


The purpose is to get a person (postman or otherwise) to the right place.
It might not be accurately mappable where the right place is and the person
may have to use initiative at the 'general location' to find the right door
or letterbox.



 International addressing in databases is an extremely complex area, which
 is caused to a large extent by people thinking they understand their own
 address (after all, everybody has one)

No they don't ! (long list of examples intentionally omitted!)

I've added mine at the bottom.



 and then expecting the rest of the world to follow the same model. The UK
 address model lives in a parallel universe compared to the administrative
 boundaries. It needs extra fields (locality for example) to disambiguate,
 when a Post Town has multiple roads with the same name. The UK has
 properties which don't have a number (just a name). Until recently it used
 counties which hadn't existed for years. All this because the addressing
 system is run by Royal Mail, purely for its own convenience in delivering
 mail, and there's nothing better.

 I pity some countries which don't have addresses, and have stuff delivered
 based on mileposts and landmarks. Maybe what3words[1] will catch on. How
 will we put that in OSM I wonder?

 Ireland still doesn't have postcodes by the way, despite working on it
 for the past million years. All they have at the moment is Loc8 [2] which
 is a private initiative, probably born out of frustration with the lack of
 progress by An Post. They are about to get Eircode[3] which looks
 incredibly complex for what it is.

 //colin

 [1] http://what3words.com/

 [2] http://www.myloc8ion.com/

 [3] http://www.eircode.ie/



Mike.
54.212404,-3.270514
https://maps.google.com/maps?f=qsource=s_qhl=engeocode=q=54.212404,-3.270514aq=sll=54.212154,-3.270836sspn=0.001441,0.004128vpsrc=6t=hg=54.212404,-3.270514ie=UTF8ll=54.212404,-3.270514spn=0.001441,0.004128z=19iwloc=A
Earth
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-28 Thread Richard Welty

On 5/28/15 8:44 PM, pmailkeey . wrote:
 Do explain

first problem - where google points

do you have any idea how many things are wrong with that statement?

the two big ones:

1) we must not depend on anything google does

2) google doesn't even reliably get it right

so handwaving where google points is simply wrong. way wrong.

richard
 On 29 May 2015 at 01:39, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net
 mailto:rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:

 On 5/28/15 8:26 PM, pmailkeey . wrote:



 Postcodes don't have addresses!

 Where Google points, given that postcode, for a geographic address

 Bigstone Meadow
 Tutshill
 Nr Chepstow
 Gloucestershire 
 England

 ummm, i think you have quite a bit to learn about geocoding.


-- 
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 Averill Park Networking - GIS  IT Consulting
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

Do explain

On 29 May 2015 at 01:39, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:

  On 5/28/15 8:26 PM, pmailkeey . wrote:




 Postcodes don't have addresses!

  Where Google points, given that postcode, for a geographic address

  Bigstone Meadow
 Tutshill
 Nr Chepstow
 Gloucestershire
 England

ummm, i think you have quite a bit to learn about geocoding.

 richard

 -- rwe...@averillpark.net
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 29 May 2015 at 01:50, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:

  On 5/28/15 8:44 PM, pmailkeey . wrote:

 Do explain

  first problem - where google points

 do you have any idea how many things are wrong with that statement?

 the two big ones:

 1) we must not depend on anything google does

 2) google doesn't even reliably get it right

 so handwaving where google points is simply wrong. way wrong.

 richard


1) and 2) are irrelevant.

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 28 May 2015 at 07:32, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:

 In the UK we have postal addresses which are for Royal Mail's convenience,
 not yours. Often your (correct) postal address suggests you are in a
 different town, and sometimes even a different country.

 What would you call the geographic address for NP16 7JU? The postal
 address is Chepstow. It's not even in Wales.


Postcodes don't have addresses!

Where Google points, given that postcode, for a geographic address

Bigstone Meadow
Tutshill
Nr Chepstow
Gloucestershire
England


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-28 Thread Richard Welty

On 5/28/15 8:26 PM, pmailkeey . wrote:



 Postcodes don't have addresses!

 Where Google points, given that postcode, for a geographic address

 Bigstone Meadow
 Tutshill
 Nr Chepstow
 Gloucestershire 
 England

ummm, i think you have quite a bit to learn about geocoding.

richard

-- 
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 Averill Park Networking - GIS  IT Consulting
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-28 Thread Ross


Hi Mike,

Here's the entrance

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/-15.91204/135.52593

There's nothing mapped there but if you look at bing imagery you can see 
where the access is.


Here's the approximate centroid

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/-15.5677/135.7972

Cheers
Ross


On 28/05/15 10:00, pmailkeey . wrote:

Hi Ross,

On 27 May 2015 at 10:03, Ross i...@4x4falcon.com 
mailto:i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:


But if you tagged it on the 1,000,000 hectare property and it was
then displayed at the centroid you'd never find the access to the
property as it's centroid is not even close to the road where the
address is.

The entrance is here:

http://binged.it/1Rn0nOY


but the centroid is about here:

http://binged.it/1Rn0zhb


Can you plot this address area on OSM, include a loose node for the 
'entrance' and give me an OSM map link for it ?


Cheers.

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-28 Thread Marc Gemis

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:39 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
wrote:

 Mike.
 54.212404,-3.270514
 https://maps.google.com/maps?f=qsource=s_qhl=engeocode=q=54.212404,-3.270514aq=sll=54.212154,-3.270836sspn=0.001441,0.004128vpsrc=6t=hg=54.212404,-3.270514ie=UTF8ll=54.212404,-3.270514spn=0.001441,0.004128z=19iwloc=A
 Earth
 Milky Way
 Universe 1


What in case you live on the sixth floor ?

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

In the UK we have postal addresses which are for Royal Mail's convenience,
not yours. Often your (correct) postal address suggests you are in a
different town, and sometimes even a different country.

What would you call the geographic address for NP16 7JU? The postal
address is Chepstow. It's not even in Wales.

 On 27 May 2015 at 08:07, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:

  Martin et al.,

 It might help to have some kind of paradigm here as I think our frames
 of
 reference may be divergent. If we don't have consensus about the
 question
 we will never agree about the answer except by coincidence, and that
 would be the worst situation of all.

 What are the use cases for an address? Is it as a routing target? A
 label or annotation for a building? or a property in a looser
 sense?
 Is it for the benefit of the postman? Or what?

 //colin



 In the UK we have postal addresses and geographic addresses. In the main
 they're the same but where there isn't a postal address, there's only the
 geographic address. There are cases where the postal address and
 geographic
 address are different - such as PO Box numbers where a firm at one address
 has their post delivered to another address.

 Address: geographic/routing (A description for finding a 'place' - a
 (geographic) location; the next 8 bits, a web page etc.
 Address: postal post delivery.


 --
 Mike.
 @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
 For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
 via *the area's premier website - *

 *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family,
 property
  pets*

 TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

 

Mike, what's a node address and what's an area address (without
resorting to circular definitions)? I have never seen a flag for this in
any of the many address databases I have worked with. 

On 2015-05-28 02:04, pmailkeey . wrote: 

 On 28 May 2015 at 00:39, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:22 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com 
 wrote:
 
 In the US where there are mailboxes with the little flags on them it seems 
 correct to put the address on the node for that box. Common sense really.
 
 Mike, you keep on insisting that addresses should always be put on an
 area and never on a node. Now here you say it's common sense and
 correct to put it on a node (that represents the mailbox). What is
 your position really?
 
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 Quite simply area addresses should be on the area and not a node and 
 addresses for a node should be on the node.
 
 -- 
 
 Mike. 
 
 @millomweb [2] - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland 
 via THE AREA'S PREMIER WEBSITE - 
 
 CURRENTLY UNAVAILABLE DUE TO ONGOING HARASSMENT OF ME, MY FAMILY, PROPERTY  
 PETS 
 
 TCs [3] 
 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-28 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer





 Am 28.05.2015 um 09:24 schrieb Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:
 
 Mike, what's a node address and what's an area address (without resorting 
 to circular definitions)? I have never seen a flag for this in any of the 
 many address databases I have worked with.
 


have you dealt with international addresses or were they related to specific 
countries? Were the addresses in these dbs polygons or points?

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

 

Addresses are just labels, with (in the general case) an N:M relation
with areas. Addresses are not used to identify buildings, as that
would imply that all buildings (even sheds and garages) would need their
own address. In multi-occupancy buildings (apartments, shared offices
etc) each separately registered unit needs its own address (in order to
ensure post etc is directed to the right party); the geometry of each
unit can vary wildly, in three dimensions. A 1:1 relation between
addresses and areas (actually volumes might be a better word here)
is certainly very common, but not enough to cover the reality. 

International addressing in databases is an extremely complex area,
which is caused to a large extent by people thinking they understand
their own address (after all, everybody has one) and then expecting the
rest of the world to follow the same model. The UK address model lives
in a parallel universe compared to the administrative boundaries. It
needs extra fields (locality for example) to disambiguate, when a Post
Town has multiple roads with the same name. The UK has properties which
don't have a number (just a name). Until recently it used counties which
hadn't existed for years. All this because the addressing system is run
by Royal Mail, purely for its own convenience in delivering mail, and
there's nothing better. 

I pity some countries which don't have addresses, and have stuff
delivered based on mileposts and landmarks. Maybe what3words[1] will
catch on. How will we put that in OSM I wonder? 

Ireland still doesn't have postcodes by the way, despite working on it
for the past million years. All they have at the moment is Loc8 [2]
which is a private initiative, probably born out of frustration with the
lack of progress by An Post. They are about to get Eircode[3] which
looks incredibly complex for what it is. 

//colin 

[1] http://what3words.com/ 

[2] http://www.myloc8ion.com/ [2] 

[3] http://www.eircode.ie/ 

On 2015-05-28 09:34, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 

 Am 28.05.2015 um 09:24 schrieb Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:
 
 Mike, what's a node address and what's an area address (without 
 resorting to circular definitions)? I have never seen a flag for this in any 
 of the many address databases I have worked with.
 
 have you dealt with international addresses or were they related to specific 
 countries? Were the addresses in these dbs polygons or points? 
 
 Cheers 
 Martin 
 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

 

On 2015-05-28 12:24, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 

 2015-05-28 12:12 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:
 
 If you have a block of flats with 2000 people apparently living at the same 
 address, I can't imagine that a single, shared letter box will be enough. 
 Each apartment will have its own address. 
 Or are you talking about where each apartment has its own private letter box 
 in the entrance hall?
 
 yes. the latter. They all have the same address, but they all have their own 
 individual letter box. There are many many cases like this. You (the mail 
 service) don't need a distinct address for each property (=apartment / unit).

Maybe the postman doesn't care, but I (the sender of the letter) do. I
want to know that the correct John Smith gets my letter. And I am not
going to send everything with recorded delivery just in case. In my
opinion, the apartment number (= the letterbox identifier) is therefore
part of the address. 

 Which would bring us back to what's an address? Is it for delivering 
 letters, or is it about the property itself?
 
 it is all of this.

You are of course absolutely right, my question was intended
rhetorically... but nonetheless with a serious background. Address
means different things to different people. Either we federalise and
delegate responsibility for the model to countries (agree to differ),
and give up on the futile exercise of trying to agree on a simple model
that will fit every case in the world, or we analyse various systems
across the world and make a more abstract model which can fit all of the
cases analysed - which will probably be viewed by everyone as
unnecessarily complex for their particular use case. 

 Cheers, 
 Martin 
 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-28 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

2015-05-28 12:12 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:

 If you have a block of flats with 2000 people apparently living at the
 same address, I can't imagine that a single, shared letter box will be
 enough. Each apartment will have its own address.

 Or are you talking about where each apartment has its own private letter
 box in the entrance hall?



yes. the latter. They all have the same address, but they all have their
own individual letter box. There are many many cases like this. You (the
mail service) don't need a distinct address for each property (=apartment /
unit).



 Which would bring us back to what's an address? Is it for delivering
 letters, or is it about the property itself?



it is all of this.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 2015-05-28 11:13, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

2015-05-28 10:49 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:

Addresses are just labels, with (in the general case) an N:M relation with
areas. Addresses are not used to identify buildings, as that would imply
that all buildings (even sheds and garages) would need their own address.

actually in Italy garages sometimes get their own addresses if they have a
separate gate. A gate can also have it's own housenumber without leading to
anything, like here:
https://www.google.it/maps/@41.83254,12.477383,3a,75y,283h,85.62t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1seGMH98B7GPT129x3i2PgaQ!2e0!6m1!1e1
[1]
this is number 6, leading to the garden of the house of which all actual
housenumbers are 8 and the entrance is here:
https://www.google.it/maps/@41.832353,12.477295,3a,75y,300.31h,96.95t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQZDm_XBQAUDVxW8KkF2YGg!2e0!6m1!1e1
[2]

You used the magic word sometimes. Same in NL, if they are
discontiguous with the rest of the property. But only sometimes, not
always. I have never seen a garage/shed in the UK with an independent
address.

In multi-occupancy buildings (apartments, shared offices etc) each
separately registered unit needs its own address (in order to ensure post
etc is directed to the right party);
no, you can have all post boxes at one spot and people will go there to
retrieve their mail. No need for distinct addresses (because typically you
will also write a name, not just an address).

Again, that is possible in some cases. The postal service (and other
deliverers such as bailiffs) needs to be able to guarantee that it got
to the addressee, or at least the addressee's property. Hence the need
for a unique address for each unit. In NL every unit must have its own
letter box.

If you have a block of flats with 2000 people apparently living at the
same address, I can't imagine that a single, shared letter box will be
enough. Each apartment will have its own address.

Or are you talking about where each apartment has its own private letter
box in the entrance hall? Which would bring us back to what's an
address? Is it for delivering letters, or is it about the property
itself?

Maybe we should have a N:M between address and property unit, with
mail delivery location as an optional element to the address? If the
address is a node, it needs to be related to the property unit
somehow. 2-d geometry is not enough for this if the node is located
outside the property unit, or if the address refers to multiple property
units. If it is located at the mail delivery location, then it may not
be useful for navigation purposes unless you can derive the property
unit location (and/or its entrance(s)) from the address node.

It can also be different (several addresses), but it really depends on the
local situation. Or maybe you are referring to the UK only?

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-28 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

2015-05-28 10:49 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:

 Addresses are just labels, with (in the general case) an N:M relation with
 areas. Addresses are not used to identify buildings, as that would imply
 that all buildings (even sheds and garages) would need their own address.



actually in Italy garages sometimes get their own addresses if they have a
separate gate. A gate can also have it's own housenumber without leading to
anything, like here:
https://www.google.it/maps/@41.83254,12.477383,3a,75y,283h,85.62t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1seGMH98B7GPT129x3i2PgaQ!2e0!6m1!1e1
this is number 6, leading to the garden of the house of which all actual
housenumbers are 8 and the entrance is here:
https://www.google.it/maps/@41.832353,12.477295,3a,75y,300.31h,96.95t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQZDm_XBQAUDVxW8KkF2YGg!2e0!6m1!1e1



 In multi-occupancy buildings (apartments, shared offices etc) each
 separately registered unit needs its own address (in order to ensure post
 etc is directed to the right party);



no, you can have all post boxes at one spot and people will go there to
retrieve their mail. No need for distinct addresses (because typically you
will also write a name, not just an address).
It can also be different (several addresses), but it really depends on the
local situation. Or maybe you are referring to the UK only?

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-28 Thread John Eldredge

Also, large industrial facilities may have all mail delivered to a central 
office, yet have separate street addresses for individual buildings for 
delivering goods.




On May 28, 2015 9:21:44 AM Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:


In the UK we have postal addresses which are for Royal Mail's convenience,
not yours. Often your (correct) postal address suggests you are in a
different town, and sometimes even a different country.

What would you call the geographic address for NP16 7JU? The postal
address is Chepstow. It's not even in Wales.

 On 27 May 2015 at 08:07, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:

  Martin et al.,

 It might help to have some kind of paradigm here as I think our frames
 of
 reference may be divergent. If we don't have consensus about the
 question
 we will never agree about the answer except by coincidence, and that
 would be the worst situation of all.

 What are the use cases for an address? Is it as a routing target? A
 label or annotation for a building? or a property in a looser
 sense?
 Is it for the benefit of the postman? Or what?

 //colin



 In the UK we have postal addresses and geographic addresses. In the main
 they're the same but where there isn't a postal address, there's only the
 geographic address. There are cases where the postal address and
 geographic
 address are different - such as PO Box numbers where a firm at one address
 has their post delivered to another address.

 Address: geographic/routing (A description for finding a 'place' - a
 (geographic) location; the next 8 bits, a web page etc.
 Address: postal post delivery.


 --
 Mike.
 @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
 For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
 via *the area's premier website - *

 *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family,
 property
  pets*

 TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 11:03 GMT+02:00 Ross i...@4x4falcon.com:

 But if you tagged it on the 1,000,000 hectare property and it was then
 displayed at the centroid you'd never find the access to the property as
 it's centroid is not even close to the road where the address is.




Yes, but more intelligent software could see that it is a huge object with
this address and ask where exactly you want to go. Huge objects like this
tend to have several entrances, obviously a centroid will not work well.
Also, a software could recognize automatically which entrances are inside
or on the perimeter of a given (area) address. All this will not work with
just a node.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Markus Lindholm

On 27 May 2015 at 09:48, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 Am 27.05.2015 um 09:38 schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org:
 Also, the address must be unique
 why?

Otherwise they make bad routing targets

/Markus

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Warin


On 27/05/2015 7:33 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


2015-05-27 11:03 GMT+02:00 Ross i...@4x4falcon.com 
mailto:i...@4x4falcon.com:


But if you tagged it on the 1,000,000 hectare property and it was
then displayed at the centroid you'd never find the access to the
property as it's centroid is not even close to the road where the
address is.




Yes, but more intelligent software could see that it is a huge object 
with this address and ask where exactly you want to go. Huge objects 
like this tend to have several entrances, obviously a centroid will 
not work well. Also, a software could recognize automatically which 
entrances are inside or on the perimeter of a given (area) address. 
All this will not work with just a node.





Using that logic the address should be on a node at the main visitor 
entry ... only visitors will need that level of detail .. regulars will 
make their own way once in close proximity.
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area





 Am 27.05.2015 um 11:59 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com:
 
 Using that logic the address should be on a node at the main visitor entry 
 ... only visitors will need that level of detail .. regulars will make their 
 own way once in close proximity.


no, because there are other usecases then routing, and you would not know to 
what else besides the visitor entry (if any) the address belongs.

Cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Colin Smale

 

A block of flats will also have many addresses. Each individual
apartment will have its own. If there is a garage down the street which
is part of the property of the flat, you could say that the garage is
also part of the address. Things can get very messy... 

Depending on the definition you choose, an address may be 1-dimensional,
2-dimensional or 3-dimensional. 

Although the majority of cases are 1:1 (a house with one address) we
need a scheme that is able to handle the esoteric cases as well.
Buildings with no address, buildings with multiple addresses, addresses
with multiple buildings, addresses with an extreme extent, apparent
duplicate addresses etc etc. Any scheme which cannot handle these cases
is IMHO broken (or to use a nicer word: incomplete). 

In IT-land it is very usual to allow a location to have multiple
addresses, each with a role. For example, you may have one address for
post (PO Box number), one for putting in your satnav for visiting by
car, one round the back for goods deliveries - all referring to the
same building. The local government may have yet another idea. 

//colin 

On 2015-05-27 09:47, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 

 Am 27.05.2015 um 09:38 schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org: Absent 
 any information, tagging the plot is better than nothing. A building is 
 better - and even better is the main entrance or an even finer scheme to 
 separate entrance and postbox.
 
 if you add an address that belongs to a plot to just a node of the entrance, 
 how would you know the spatial extension of the address? Or do you suggest to 
 duplicate the address on the node?
 By using an area we can omit the repetition of the address on all pois inside 
 this area. All entrances inside an address area are automatically associated 
 with this address and can be used for routing etc
 
 cheers 
 Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Ross

But if you tagged it on the 1,000,000 hectare property and it was then 
displayed at the centroid you'd never find the access to the property as 
it's centroid is not even close to the road where the address is.


The entrance is here:

http://binged.it/1Rn0nOY


but the centroid is about here:

http://binged.it/1Rn0zhb

The property across the road is similar, with it's entrance on the same 
road but the centroid is about 25kms away.


In the case of both these properties a better representation is the name 
of the property, the first is Lorella Springs and the second is Bauhinia 
Downs but neither is on the property in osm.



But the node is a perfect representation of where the entrance of the 
property is and that's what the Australian/New Zealand standard is for 
addressing.


Copy of standard is here:

http://shop.standards.co.nz/catalog/4819:2011(AS%7CNZS)/scope?

If you don't want to read it all it basically says that rural addresses 
are determined by the entrance to the property and the number is 
determined by the distance from the reference point for the road.  This 
will be the start of the road for a no through road or as determined for 
a through road.  It also says that moving away from the reference point 
along the road the even numbers will be on the right and the odd numbers 
on the left.


This makes it extremely easy for any on to find an address in rural 
areas of Australia.


For example an address of:

146 A Road
A Locality

Will be 1.46 km from the start of the road on the right hand side as the 
numbers are increasing.


Like wise:

12677 A Road
Another Locality

will be 126.77 km from the start fo the road on the left hand side.

It also makes it extremely easy to determine how addresses in Australia 
should be mapped.  Not on the property  or building.



Cheers
Ross


On 27/05/15 16:18, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:





Am 27.05.2015 um 02:00 schrieb Ross i...@4x4falcon.com:

In Australia the address refers to the property ie the plot of ground that is 
defined by the cadastral plan.

So those plots of ground may  be 600 sq m or 1,000,000 hectares and may have 
zero, one or many buildings.


generally it will be more useful to have an area tagged where there is one, eg 
in your examples above. A node is not a nice representation of an address on a 
1000,000 hectares property

cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Lauri Kytömaa

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Markus Lindholm
markus.lindh...@gmail.com wrote:
 Otherwise they make bad routing targets

Complete addresses may indeed be unique, but the housenumber part
can be and is in may countries the same for, for example all
apartments in an apartment building. In other countries each apartment
may have a running housenumber, i.e. unique within that street.

Effectively, all software working with osm data has to support (i.e.
build an index of) nodes and ways with addr:* tags, no matter whether
they are a part of a way or a relation, or whether they stand alone.
In most cases, if not in all use cases, the different properties and
objects it might refer to can then be algorithmically extracted; if
that is absolutely necessary. Hence, I would say that address info on
a node is never wrong; it accomplishes the goals and every application
can find it, but IF the address is the only address of some thing
(being an entrance or a building), it's better to have it on the node
or the way depicting that feature. When a feature has several
addresses, the most simple solution is again a node for each address;
everybody can extract and use all those addresses.

-- 
alv

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Colin Smale

 

Don't know if this can happen in the Australian model, but there may be
multiple visitor entrances which are true alternatives (i.e. not one
main plus one side entrance). I would hope the routing would pick the
most appropriate entrance, given an ultimate destination in the middle
somewhere and not force everyone to use one entrance, irrespective of
their arrival route. 

//colin 

On 2015-05-27 11:59, Warin wrote: 

 On 27/05/2015 7:33 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 
 
 2015-05-27 11:03 GMT+02:00 Ross i...@4x4falcon.com:
 But if you tagged it on the 1,000,000 hectare property and it was then 
 displayed at the centroid you'd never find the access to the property as it's 
 centroid is not even close to the road where the address is. 
 
 Yes, but more intelligent software could see that it is a huge object with 
 this address and ask where exactly you want to go. Huge objects like this 
 tend to have several entrances, obviously a centroid will not work well. 
 Also, a software could recognize automatically which entrances are inside or 
 on the perimeter of a given (area) address. All this will not work with just 
 a node.

 Using that logic the address should be on a node at the main visitor
entry ... only visitors will need that level of detail .. regulars will
make their own way once in close proximity. 

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Jean-Marc Liotier


On 27/05/2015 09:47, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Am 27.05.2015 um 09:38 schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org:

Absent any information, tagging the plot is better than nothing. A building is 
better - and even better is the main entrance or an even finer scheme to 
separate entrance and postbox.

By using an area we can omit the repetition of the address on all pois inside 
this area.

Indeed, that seems like a case where area is superior.

There may be other ways to cover this case. Among them I stumbled upon 
the associatedAddress relation at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/associatedAddress#Relation_associatedAddress 
but I have no idea about its relevance - I am definitely out of my depth 
here...



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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Jean-Marc Liotier


On 27/05/2015 09:57, Daniel Koć wrote:

W dniu 27.05.2015 9:38, Jean-Marc Liotier napisał(a):

Also, the address must be unique - it must not be present on more than
one object, even if more than one POI exists at that address.
So there are exceptions to this rule: I know at least one example 
where the same address is given for two different retail/service 
buildings (~500 m in city along river is rather a big distance, and 
it's not a tagging mistake).
So now I understand why some information systems I know use for the 
address a primary key distinct from any of the address's components. 
Using a random primary key also makes the address still relatable across 
events such as street name change.



On 27/05/2015 09:48, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Am 27.05.2015 um 09:38 schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org:

Also, the address must be unique
why? 
Relational integrity ? But after Daniel's remark above, I now believe I 
was mistaken in how I understood address uniqueness: the address object 
that must be unique but two addresses may have the same attributes.


When French telcos send each other messages to order construction of 
local loops, they mention an address identifier - the address attributes 
are accessory.



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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 10:38 GMT+02:00 Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com:

 On 27 May 2015 at 09:48, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Am 27.05.2015 um 09:38 schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org:
  Also, the address must be unique
  why?

 Otherwise they make bad routing targets




Maybe for ideal routing, an address is sometimes not sufficient? What if
your satnav asked you after you entered the address: do you want to
a) get to the main entrance
b) get to the petrol station at this address?
c) choose another target from a selection at this address?
or something like this.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Markus Lindholm

On 27 May 2015 at 10:48, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 2015-05-27 10:38 GMT+02:00 Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com:

 On 27 May 2015 at 09:48, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Am 27.05.2015 um 09:38 schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org:
  Also, the address must be unique
  why?

 Otherwise they make bad routing targets

 Maybe for ideal routing, an address is sometimes not sufficient? What if
 your satnav asked you after you entered the address: do you want to
 a) get to the main entrance
 b) get to the petrol station at this address?
 c) choose another target from a selection at this address?
 or something like this.

Ideally the routing application shouldn't need to ask for
clarification once a human asked for a route to a specific address.

Now that might not be possible for a number of reasons, e.g.

- Ground truth is such that an address actually isn't unique
- Incomplete data in the database, exact match was not found
- Ambiguous data in the database, same address is distributed over
multiple objects in the database

Personally I consider the last case to be bad mapping practice.

/Markus

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area





 Am 27.05.2015 um 02:00 schrieb Ross i...@4x4falcon.com:
 
 In Australia the address refers to the property ie the plot of ground that is 
 defined by the cadastral plan.
 
 So those plots of ground may  be 600 sq m or 1,000,000 hectares and may have 
 zero, one or many buildings.


generally it will be more useful to have an area tagged where there is one, eg 
in your examples above. A node is not a nice representation of an address on a 
1000,000 hectares property 

cheers 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Colin Smale

 

Martin et al., 

It might help to have some kind of paradigm here as I think our frames
of reference may be divergent. If we don't have consensus about the
question we will never agree about the answer except by coincidence,
and that would be the worst situation of all. 

What are the use cases for an address? Is it as a routing target? A
label or annotation for a building? or a property in a looser
sense? Is it for the benefit of the postman? Or what? 

//colin 

On 2015-05-27 08:18, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 

 Am 27.05.2015 um 02:00 schrieb Ross i...@4x4falcon.com: In Australia the 
 address refers to the property ie the plot of ground that is defined by the 
 cadastral plan. So those plots of ground may be 600 sq m or 1,000,000 
 hectares and may have zero, one or many buildings.
 
 generally it will be more useful to have an area tagged where there is one, 
 eg in your examples above. A node is not a nice representation of an address 
 on a 1000,000 hectares property 
 
 cheers 
 Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 27 May 2015 at 08:07, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:

  Martin et al.,

 It might help to have some kind of paradigm here as I think our frames of
 reference may be divergent. If we don't have consensus about the question
 we will never agree about the answer except by coincidence, and that
 would be the worst situation of all.

 What are the use cases for an address? Is it as a routing target? A
 label or annotation for a building? or a property in a looser sense?
 Is it for the benefit of the postman? Or what?

 //colin



In the UK we have postal addresses and geographic addresses. In the main
they're the same but where there isn't a postal address, there's only the
geographic address. There are cases where the postal address and geographic
address are different - such as PO Box numbers where a firm at one address
has their post delivered to another address.

Address: geographic/routing (A description for finding a 'place' - a
(geographic) location; the next 8 bits, a web page etc.
Address: postal post delivery.


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@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
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via *the area's premier website - *

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:22 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:

 In the US where there are mailboxes with the little flags on them it seems 
 correct to put the address on the node for that box. Common sense really.

Mike, you keep on insisting that addresses should always be put on an
area and never on a node. Now here you say it's common sense and
correct to put it on a node (that represents the mailbox). What is
your position really?

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 28 May 2015 at 00:39, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:22 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
 wrote:
 
  In the US where there are mailboxes with the little flags on them it
 seems correct to put the address on the node for that box. Common sense
 really.

 Mike, you keep on insisting that addresses should always be put on an
 area and never on a node. Now here you say it's common sense and
 correct to put it on a node (that represents the mailbox). What is
 your position really?

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Quite simply area addresses should be on the area and not a node and
addresses for a node should be on the node.

-- 
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@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 27 May 2015 at 08:48, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:





  Am 27.05.2015 um 09:38 schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org:
 
  Also, the address must be unique


 why?


Otherwise high risk of computer crashing

Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 27 May 2015 at 01:00, Ross i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:

  Your still missing the point.

 Depending on the country, state, area the address does not necessarily
 refer to the building.

 In Australia the address refers to the property ie the plot of ground that
 is defined by the cadastral plan.

 So those plots of ground may  be 600 sq m or 1,000,000 hectares and may
 have zero, one or many buildings.

 Easiest way to plot these is on a node at the access point to the plot of
 ground.


Building is the 'common' example. In cases where plots of land receive
things then the plot area should have the address. If there are many
buildings but only one address, where is the mail to be delivered ? Put the
address on that building. In the US where there are mailboxes with the
little flags on them it seems correct to put the address on the node for
that box. Common sense really.




 As someone else pointed out a building may have multiple addresses
 particularly when it's on the corner of two streets.

 I live near a town of 1500 people.  In the main part of the town there are
 5 buildings that have two addresses.

 All of these have one address on the main street and one address on the
 side street.  The reason is that there are two different entrances to two
 different businesses.

 So how are you going to tag that on the building?


Around here, there are buildings with 30 addresses. Each building is
subdivided into individual houses and each house has the address tagged to
the area. One does the same with your case of smaller buildings and have
the address of each on the building. Near me is a building split into flats
- with 4 entrances. I've named the building on the area and then marked the
entrances each labelled for the properties they serve.


-- 
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@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area





 Am 27.05.2015 um 09:07 schrieb Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:
 
 What are the use cases for an address? Is it as a routing target? A label 
 or annotation for a building? or a property in a looser sense? Is it for 
 the benefit of the postman? Or what?


it is a property of some other object it refers to, like a plot, a building or 
in some cases an entrance, a staircase or an apartment. You will need it for 
geocoding and reverse gc. For routing it might not be sufficient (eg in case of 
big areas you'd want to be led to an entrance or a reception area)


cheers 
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Jean-Marc Liotier


On 27/05/2015 09:07, Colin Smale wrote:
What are the use cases for an address? Is it as a routing target? A 
label or annotation for a building? or a property in a looser 
sense? Is it for the benefit of the postman? Or what?


As Christian Quest explained on talk-fr just minutes ago, an address is 
all that and more: a building, a cadastral plot, an entrance, a piece of 
equipment inside... But foremost it is an identifier - being at a 
specific geographic position comes second to that.


Absent any information, tagging the plot is better than nothing. A 
building is better - and even better is the main entrance or an even 
finer scheme to separate entrance and postbox... But as Christian said, 
learning to walk precedes learning to run - having an address at all is 
the essential step.


Also, the address must be unique - it must not be present on more than 
one object, even if more than one POI exists at that address.



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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area





 Am 27.05.2015 um 09:38 schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org:
 
 Absent any information, tagging the plot is better than nothing. A building 
 is better - and even better is the main entrance or an even finer scheme to 
 separate entrance and postbox.


if you add an address that belongs to a plot to just a node of the entrance, 
how would you know the spatial extension of the address? Or do you suggest to 
duplicate the address on the node?
By using an area we can omit the repetition of the address on all pois inside 
this area. All entrances inside an address area are automatically associated 
with this address and can be used for routing etc

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area





 Am 27.05.2015 um 09:38 schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org:
 
 Also, the address must be unique


why?

Cheers 
Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-27 Thread Daniel Koć


W dniu 27.05.2015 9:38, Jean-Marc Liotier napisał(a):


Also, the address must be unique - it must not be present on more than
one object, even if more than one POI exists at that address.


So there are exceptions to this rule: I know at least one example where 
the same address is given for two different retail/service buildings 
(~500 m in city along river is rather a big distance, and it's not a 
tagging mistake).


--
The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down [A. Cohen]


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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-26 Thread Bryce Nesbitt

If a building is all one address, I see no reason not to tag the building
outline.
If there are multiple addresses, then nodes are a good way to go.

Both schemes are in use.
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-26 Thread Ross


Your still missing the point.

Depending on the country, state, area the address does not necessarily 
refer to the building.


In Australia the address refers to the property ie the plot of ground 
that is defined by the cadastral plan.


So those plots of ground may  be 600 sq m or 1,000,000 hectares and may 
have zero, one or many buildings.


Easiest way to plot these is on a node at the access point to the plot 
of ground.


As someone else pointed out a building may have multiple addresses 
particularly when it's on the corner of two streets.


I live near a town of 1500 people.  In the main part of the town there 
are 5 buildings that have two addresses.


All of these have one address on the main street and one address on the 
side street.  The reason is that there are two different entrances to 
two different businesses.


So how are you going to tag that on the building?

By tagging on a node the actual entrances can be marked and it 
accurately maps what is on the ground.


Cheers
Ross


On 27/05/15 09:32, pmailkeey . wrote:



On 27 May 2015 at 00:06, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl 
mailto:colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:


Mike, you are missing the point... A building and an address are
two different things. A building may have 0 to N addresses. An
address may or may not refer to a building. The business rules
to link the two concepts vary by country. An address is not
usually a unique identifier of a building - it's for getting the
post delivered to the right letter box.



I don't think I'm missing the point. People have addresses and that 
usually relates to their dwelling - so it's correct to attach the 
address to the dwelling rather than a node of the dwelling. There is 
one building where I've placed a mailbox (private) on the building as 
it is not near the usual main entrance.


The point is, the house number should go on the area, not the node and 
not both.


--
Mike.
@millomweb 
https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all 
your info on Millom and South Copeland

via *the area's premier website - *
*
*
*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, 
property  pets*

*
*
TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail


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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-26 Thread Warin


On 26/05/2015 6:11 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:





Am 25.05.2015 um 17:53 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com:

CONGRATULATIONS ! You win the award for the best puzzle of the year! It appears 
to be a loose numbering system for identifying entrances rather than properties.


that's what I told you initially, you said tagging a node would be wrong and 
I replied it depends on the region. In Italy it seems they really associate a number to 
(most) entrances. Even more crazy, I have seen a number of places (different 
towns/villages) where the existing, old numbering  was changed (strike through of old, 
often stone engraved number and new number with paint or adhesive sticker). I cannot 
imagine any reason if not to deliberately create confusion ;-)




There are places in the world with 8 day weeks, 6 day weeks .. I'd not be 
surprised by a 5 day week!

And at least one country does not use 'the yearly calendar' the 'we' all do ..

So ... if  OSM is to be world wide it must allow for the interesting  
'exceptions' by providing ways of entering and using the varied systems in use.


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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-26 Thread Colin Smale

 

Mike, you are missing the point... A building and an address are two
different things. A building may have 0 to N addresses. An address may
or may not refer to a building. The business rules to link the two
concepts vary by country. An address is not usually a unique identifier
of a building - it's for getting the post delivered to the right letter
box. 

On 2015-05-27 00:56, pmailkeey . wrote: 

 On 26 May 2015 at 09:11, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Am 25.05.2015 um 17:53 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com:
 
 CONGRATULATIONS ! You win the award for the best puzzle of the year! It 
 appears to be a loose numbering system for identifying entrances rather 
 than properties.
 
 that's what I told you initially, you said tagging a node would be wrong 
 and I replied it depends on the region. In Italy it seems they really 
 associate a number to (most) entrances. Even more crazy, I have seen a 
 number of places (different towns/villages) where the existing, old 
 numbering was changed (strike through of old, often stone engraved number 
 and new number with paint or adhesive sticker). I cannot imagine any reason 
 if not to deliberately create confusion ;-)
 
 Building addresses shouldn't be on nodes. Named entrances can be - on 
 ent/exit nodes. 
 -- 
 
 Mike. 
 
 @millomweb [2] - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland 
 via THE AREA'S PREMIER WEBSITE - 
 
 CURRENTLY UNAVAILABLE DUE TO ONGOING HARASSMENT OF ME, MY FAMILY, PROPERTY  
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-26 Thread Richard Welty

On 5/26/15 6:56 PM, pmailkeey . wrote:

 Building addresses shouldn't be on nodes. Named entrances can be - on
 ent/exit nodes. 

if building addresses shouldn't be on nodes, what are we to make of
the address interpolation feature?

richard

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-26 Thread pmailkeey .

On 26 May 2015 at 09:11, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:





  Am 25.05.2015 um 17:53 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com:
 
  CONGRATULATIONS ! You win the award for the best puzzle of the year! It
 appears to be a loose numbering system for identifying entrances rather
 than properties.


 that's what I told you initially, you said tagging a node would be wrong
 and I replied it depends on the region. In Italy it seems they really
 associate a number to (most) entrances. Even more crazy, I have seen a
 number of places (different towns/villages) where the existing, old
 numbering  was changed (strike through of old, often stone engraved number
 and new number with paint or adhesive sticker). I cannot imagine any reason
 if not to deliberately create confusion ;-)


Building addresses shouldn't be on nodes. Named entrances can be - on
ent/exit nodes.

-- 
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-26 Thread pmailkeey .

On 27 May 2015 at 00:06, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:

  Mike, you are missing the point... A building and an address are two
 different things. A building may have 0 to N addresses. An address may or
 may not refer to a building. The business rules to link the two concepts
 vary by country. An address is not usually a unique identifier of a
 building - it's for getting the post delivered to the right letter box.





I don't think I'm missing the point. People have addresses and that usually
relates to their dwelling - so it's correct to attach the address to the
dwelling rather than a node of the dwelling. There is one building where
I've placed a mailbox (private) on the building as it is not near the usual
main entrance.

The point is, the house number should go on the area, not the node and not
both.

-- 
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-25 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

2015-05-23 1:56 GMT+02:00 pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com:

 have a look at these housenumbers, they're 5 and 7 for this side of the
 building (one big hotel), but the main address is from the main street
 (front of the buikding) and is different.

 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/attachments/20150520/465c45fc/attachment-0001.jpg


 I'm not even sure whether both of these are doors or just one



 need more info - Google streetview link?




Here you are, please also have a look at the opposite side of the road,
there is also a building with different housenumbers (because every
entrance is assigned a housenumber there, even if it's not an actual
entrance but a possible entrance (e.g. at some time in the past there was
an entrance)).
https://www.google.it/maps/@41.889945,12.498432,3a,75y,295.64h,97.03t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sFHbNr6r2HbfpCK-bhCoVRQ!2e0!6m1!1e1?hl=en

Please also note that there aren't necessarily letterboxes, rather the
opposite, there won't be a letterbox if it is a lateral entrance (or even
window) which is not used as an entrance.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-25 Thread pmailkeey .

On 25 May 2015 at 09:14, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:


 2015-05-23 1:56 GMT+02:00 pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com:

 have a look at these housenumbers, they're 5 and 7 for this side of the
 building (one big hotel), but the main address is from the main street
 (front of the buikding) and is different.

 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/attachments/20150520/465c45fc/attachment-0001.jpg


 I'm not even sure whether both of these are doors or just one



 need more info - Google streetview link?




 Here you are, please also have a look at the opposite side of the road,
 there is also a building with different housenumbers (because every
 entrance is assigned a housenumber there, even if it's not an actual
 entrance but a possible entrance (e.g. at some time in the past there was
 an entrance)).

 https://www.google.it/maps/@41.889945,12.498432,3a,75y,295.64h,97.03t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sFHbNr6r2HbfpCK-bhCoVRQ!2e0!6m1!1e1?hl=en

 Please also note that there aren't necessarily letterboxes, rather the
 opposite, there won't be a letterbox if it is a lateral entrance (or even
 window) which is not used as an entrance.

 Cheers,
 Martin

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CONGRATULATIONS ! You win the award for the best puzzle of the year! It
appears to be a loose numbering system for identifying entrances rather
than properties. On that street, 8 and 10 are the same property, it appears
- but more interestingly, at the back of the hotel, there are about 4
entrances all numbered 2 and two entrances not numbered at all.

What did you have in mind you wanted to do with those ?

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-22 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer





 Am 21.05.2015 um 23:53 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com:
 
 Tag the building with street address and add an ent/exit node to mark the 
 entrance.


have a look at these housenumbers, they're 5 and 7 for this side of the 
building (one big hotel), but the main address is from the main street (front 
of the buikding) and is different.
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/attachments/20150520/465c45fc/attachment-0001.jpg


I'm not even sure whether both of these are doors or just one


cheers 
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-22 Thread pmailkeey .

On 22 May 2015 at 07:35, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:





  Am 21.05.2015 um 23:53 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com:
 
  Tag the building with street address and add an ent/exit node to mark
 the entrance.


 have a look at these housenumbers, they're 5 and 7 for this side of the
 building (one big hotel), but the main address is from the main street
 (front of the buikding) and is different.

 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/attachments/20150520/465c45fc/attachment-0001.jpg


 I'm not even sure whether both of these are doors or just one



need more info - Google streetview link?

Here in uk doors may not have a 'letterbox' aka point of delivery and as
such, Royal Mail would not assign those as addresses. '5' and '7' may not
be house numbers but key numbers or internal ref numbers - or 'private'
access doors to 'facility rooms' allowing hirers independent access without
using the main entrance. I suggest you leave them untagged until you know
what they are to avoid putting erroneous info on the map.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-22 Thread Ross




On 21/05/15 20:16, pmailkeey . wrote:



On 21 May 2015 at 02:08, Ross i...@4x4falcon.com 
mailto:i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:




On 21/05/15 09:51, pmailkeey . wrote:



On 20 May 2015 at 14:10, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com
mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

We know that addr:housenumber
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr=* can be tagged
on nodes
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#How_to_map_addresses
and that it's very convenient.


But wrong.


Why?  It's all very well that this may be you opinion but the wiki
and accepted practice says otherwise.



Address = building = area, not node. It's 'accepted' as a second best 
option for where a building hasn't been drawn. I find quite a lot of 
them and remove them by transferring the data to the buildings - 
sometimes there's a building and a loose node containing the same 
data! In those cases, a simple node deletion is required.




Where is it accepted?

Australian addresses refer to the property only and a property may have 
several buildings.


I can show you plenty of locations where there is no building but it 
still has an address, or the property is so large that the access from 
the street/road is 50km from the only building on the property and if 
you were routing to the address you'd never get there if the address was 
on the building.


As someone else also pointed out, accepted practice in different 
countries varies.


Open address data in Australia is point (node) data and specifies what 
type of address it is, eg Driveway frontage, Building Centroid, 
Property Centroid, Property Access Point, to name a few.


The most significant of these is the Property Access Point it tends to 
occur where a property has an address in one street but because of 
different reasons (cliff, drainage, etc) the actual access is from 
another street, usually via a right of way.


IMO addresses should be on nodes only and should show were you access 
the property (type Driveway frontage, Property Access Point, 
Building Access Point) without anything else on the node. This way 
when you use a router it takes you to where you access the property.  
This also covers the accessibility issues for disabled access.


Cheers
Ross

--
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@millomweb 
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your info on Millom and South Copeland

via *the area's premier website - *
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*
*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 2015-05-21 01:51, pmailkeey . wrote :


 On 20 May 2015 at 14:10, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com
 mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 We know that addr:housenumber
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr=* can be tagged on
 nodes
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#How_to_map_addresses and
 that it's very convenient.


 But wrong.
Yes it's right.
  

 A problem in tagging the number on a node *instead* of on an area
 is that someone making a nice copy ( paste) like below (partim)
 of the nice information found in the left pane of OSM.org will
 inadvertently miss the number.
 Does anyone have an objection against the same number being *also*
 on the node?
 That is the same number both on a node (once) and on the
 way/relation *that this node belongs to* (once)?
 (we already have the other address information routinely
 duplicated and even triplicated (associatedAddress) for the sake
 of consumers finding it, so why not the address?)


 Info shouldn't be duplicated or triplicated either. 

Please be clear and justify.
Info is routinely in two places, e.g. building and associatedStreet, to
cope with software or people that do not support one of the places.
This is exactly the case.
(and if you look for DE, FR etc, it's more than two places)

Cheers

André.



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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 2015-05-20 19:26, Andreas Goss wrote :
 That is the same number both on a node (once) and on the way/relation
 *that this node belongs to* (once)?

 Do you mean area when you say way? I think if a building has the
 address then you should not have a node for just the address. If it's
 a amenity, craft etc. then it's fine to put the address on that, too.
An amenity is not an object, it's an attribute of an object like a building.
It hasn't got an address either, the object has one.
And yes, my point is (only) about when the object is an area made of a
closed way.
The wiki states that the address of an area can be tagged on one of its
nodes.

Cheers

André.



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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:13 AM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Info is routinely in two places, e.g. building and associatedStreet, to
 cope with software or people that do not support one of the places.


that depends, some people use associatedStreet only to associate a building
with a street. They do not repeat addr:postalcode, addr:city. Some people
repeat addr:street in both, but not everybody does that.
BTW, addr:city and addr:postalcode is also not repeated in areas where the
admin boundaries and postal code boundaries are complete (e.g. Germany or
Flanders).

Don't expect other people to duplicate the info. Don't expect other people
to leave the data in both places.

regards

m
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:30 AM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com
wrote:

 The wiki states that the address of an area can be tagged on one of its
 nodes.


typically the entrance node.
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-21 Thread Jo

If I followed it correctly, also in the Netherlands all addresses are
mapped on nodes, which they lined up diagonally inside the building
contours, for buildings with more than 1 address.

Since they have all the data out in the open, they could import it, of
course, which means they now have a complete situation which is consistent
to boot.

Polyglot

2015-05-21 13:06 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com:

 There are apartment buildings where each apartment has a different house
 number,  (and no, they are not unit or apartment numbers and yes 2 floors
 with different apartments). [1]
 Many discussions on the different OSM lists and fora have showed that in
 different countries 1 building can have multiple addresses. e.g. with
 entrances in 2 different streets, same building, 2 addresses. see e.g. [2]

 So no reason to laugh I guess :-)

 regards

 m


 [1] http://osm.org/go/0EpD1X0ge?m=relation=3899303
 [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/AddrN


 On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:33 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
 wrote:



 On 21 May 2015 at 11:22, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:

 Be careful in which country you do this, never do this in Denmark e.g.
 [1]
 How do you deal with buildings with multiple addresses ? Or does not not
 exist in your part of the world (honest question) ?

 regards

 [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#Denmark


 Thanks Marc, that's made me laugh - What is a building ?

 Is it a 'building' not connected to another building or is it an address
 - or does it vary ? A building as a row of houses (or flats, for that
 matter) has multiple addresses but each house is drawn as a building in its
 own right but touching the next one. Multiple addresses in one building is
 a little trickier and probably loose nodes are the answer to that. However,
 they should not contain any part of the 'external' address and be merely
 such as Flat 20.

 --
 Mike.
 @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
 For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
 via *the area's premier website - *

 *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family,
 property  pets*

 TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 21 May 2015 at 14:23, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:





 Am 21.05.2015 um 01:51 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com:

 We know that addr:housenumber
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr=* can be tagged on nodes
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#How_to_map_addresses and
 that it's very convenient.


 But wrong.



 what/where do you refer to? Is it wrong where you are? Typically inferring
 from your own experience to every other possible  place on earth will lead
 to _wrong_ conclusions

 Cheers
 Martin



Wrong on OSM - to tag an area's data by using a node.


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 21 May 2015 at 15:28, Ross i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:



 On 21/05/15 20:16, pmailkeey . wrote:



 On 21 May 2015 at 02:08, Ross i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:



 On 21/05/15 09:51, pmailkeey . wrote:



 On 20 May 2015 at 14:10, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote:

  Hi,

 We know that addr:housenumber
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr=* can be tagged on nodes
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#How_to_map_addresses and
 that it's very convenient.


  But wrong.


  Why?  It's all very well that this may be you opinion but the wiki and
 accepted practice says otherwise.



  Address = building = area, not node. It's 'accepted' as a second best
 option for where a building hasn't been drawn. I find quite a lot of them
 and remove them by transferring the data to the buildings - sometimes
 there's a building and a loose node containing the same data! In those
 cases, a simple node deletion is required.


 Where is it accepted?


On OSM - that's why they are there !


 Australian addresses refer to the property only and a property may have
 several buildings.

 I can show you plenty of locations where there is no building but it still
 has an address, or the property is so large that the access from the
 street/road is 50km from the only building on the property and if you were
 routing to the address you'd never get there if the address was on the
 building.

 As someone else also pointed out, accepted practice in different countries
 varies.

 Open address data in Australia is point (node) data and specifies what
 type of address it is, eg Driveway frontage, Building Centroid,
 Property Centroid, Property Access Point, to name a few.

 The most significant of these is the Property Access Point it tends to
 occur where a property has an address in one street but because of
 different reasons (cliff, drainage, etc) the actual access is from another
 street, usually via a right of way.

 IMO addresses should be on nodes only and should show were you access the
 property (type Driveway frontage, Property Access Point, Building
 Access Point) without anything else on the node.  This way when you use a
 router it takes you to where you access the property.  This also covers the
 accessibility issues for disabled access.


Interestingly, what you're saying is 'where I was' with Google maps - I
placed the hospital marker not on the building but near the entrance to the
driveway. This approach was queried by the hospital's web/IT dept and I
explained that I place the marker to mark the destination for routing -
i.e. so that a router would get someone on the right road despite the
hospital building being closer to another road. I also explained that I
consider placing the marker at the point where local signage would take
over the navigation from that point. That idea was agreed and is similar to
what you describe. However, with OSM we've far more tools to play with and
it seems the ent/exit tag could be used in that way. Your last point is a
similar case but in OSM the building (area) should have the address details
and the access driveway should make it clear which road is the one used to
reach the address.

I'm not sure whether access routes should actually connect to buildings -
I've not done this so far. A pointer on this one would be appreciated,
thanks.


-- 
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 21 May 2015 at 02:08, Ross i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:



 On 21/05/15 09:51, pmailkeey . wrote:



 On 20 May 2015 at 14:10, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote:

  Hi,

 We know that addr:housenumber
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr=* can be tagged on nodes
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#How_to_map_addresses and
 that it's very convenient.


  But wrong.


 Why?  It's all very well that this may be you opinion but the wiki and
 accepted practice says otherwise.



Address = building = area, not node. It's 'accepted' as a second best
option for where a building hasn't been drawn. I find quite a lot of them
and remove them by transferring the data to the buildings - sometimes
there's a building and a loose node containing the same data! In those
cases, a simple node deletion is required.

-- 
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
 pets*

TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:24 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
wrote:

 Another major OSM bug ! Buildings should have no more data than
 name/number with regard to addressing as all the rest of the address should
 be available elsewhere.


Easy to explain: editors ask the complete address information, including
city, postal code, country.
In some cases this is needed as the city and postal code might now be know,
e.g. when boundaries are missing.
It should/could be cleaned up after the boundaries are introduced though.
Is this the most important task for mappers ? Mmmm, probably not. Major bug
? not as long as the data is the same in the two places.


regards

m
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 2015-05-21 11:33, Marc Gemis wrote :

 On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:13 AM, André Pirard
 a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote:

 Info is routinely in two places, e.g. building and
 associatedStreet, to cope with software or people that do not
 support one of the places.


 that depends, some people use associatedStreet only to associate a
 building with a street. They do not repeat addr:postalcode, addr:city.
 Some people repeat addr:street in both, but not everybody does that.
 BTW, addr:city and addr:postalcode is also not repeated in areas where
 the admin boundaries and postal code boundaries are complete (e.g.
 Germany or Flanders).

 Don't expect other people to duplicate the info. Don't expect other
 people to leave the data in both places.
I don't expect anything such and this thread is about the housenumber.
As I have said, I want to avoid people or software missing the number
when looking at a building of which the number was put on a node.  What
they miss of data put in by other contributors is beyond my control.
 
Cheers

André.



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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-21 Thread Colin Smale

 

In general, there is a many-to-many relationship between buildings and
addresses. Within one building, amenities/enterprises may each have
their own address. An address may also refer to multiple buildings. 

//colin 

On 2015-05-21 11:30, André Pirard wrote: 

 On 2015-05-20 19:26, Andreas Goss wrote : That is the same number both on a 
 node (once) and on the way/relation 
 *that this node belongs to* (once)? 
 Do you mean area when you say way? I think if a building has the address then 
 you should not have a node for just the address. If it's a amenity, craft 
 etc. then it's fine to put the address on that, too.
 An amenity is not an object, it's an attribute of an object like a
building.
 It hasn't got an address either, the object has one.
 And yes, my point is (only) about when the object is an area made of a
closed way.
 The wiki states that the address of an area can be tagged on one of its
nodes.

 Cheers 

André.

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-21 Thread Andreas Goss


Info is routinely in two places, e.g. building and associatedStreet, to
cope with software or people that do not support one of the places.


But that should not happen. If you have the realtion there should not be 
a addr:street tag on the building.


Which is why some time ago we also had a lot of people cleaning up 
associatedStreet relations, because it's pointless when only a dozen 
mappers use it and everybody else uses the addr: tags on buildings.


__
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wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎


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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area


  
  
On 2015-05-21 12:24, pmailkeey . wrote
  :


  

  On 21 May 2015 at 10:13, André Pirard
a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com
wrote:

  
  On 2015-05-21 01:51, pmailkeey . wrote :
  
  


  

  

  

  Info shouldn't be duplicated or
triplicated either. 


  

  
 Please be clear and justify.
Info is routinely in two places, e.g. building and
associatedStreet, to cope with software or people that
do not support one of the places.
This is exactly the case.
(and if you look for "DE", "FR" etc, it's more than two
places)

Cheers 
 

  

  André.

  


  
  
  



Another major OSM bug ! Buildings should have no more
  data than name/number with regard to addressing as all the
  rest of the address should be available elsewhere. 

  

  

It seems that you did not understand that an address must include
the street name because it's not obvious to which street a building
belongs.

Cheers



  

  André.

  




  

  


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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 21 May 2015 at 11:22, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:

 Be careful in which country you do this, never do this in Denmark e.g. [1]
 How do you deal with buildings with multiple addresses ? Or does not not
 exist in your part of the world (honest question) ?

 regards

 [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#Denmark


Thanks Marc, that's made me laugh - What is a building ?

Is it a 'building' not connected to another building or is it an address -
or does it vary ? A building as a row of houses (or flats, for that matter)
has multiple addresses but each house is drawn as a building in its own
right but touching the next one. Multiple addresses in one building is a
little trickier and probably loose nodes are the answer to that. However,
they should not contain any part of the 'external' address and be merely
such as Flat 20.

-- 
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
 pets*

TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-21 Thread Daniel Koć


W dniu 21.05.2015 11:30, André Pirard napisał(a):


 An amenity is not an object, it's an attribute of an object like a
building.


That would be more true for building=school probably (building with the 
attribute of being suitable for school use) - things are very 
complicated under the surface.


School (as the example):
1) may be located inside the building as one of many things,
2) may use the whole building (this is the simplest case, but we tend to 
think about it the most),

3) may also contain the area or even be located in more buildings.

It is in fact the object, however very abstract - as any other 
institution. It may have the same address as the building, but it may 
have a different one (quite natural if it contains more than one 
building with housenumbers - only one of them may have the same 
housenumber as the institution).


As we try to be GIS database and hold close to the ground truth in case 
of doubt, we have to simplify a lot, but the right tool in general would 
be using relations for such abstract things.


--
The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down [A. Cohen]


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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

Be careful in which country you do this, never do this in Denmark e.g. [1]
How do you deal with buildings with multiple addresses ? Or does not not
exist in your part of the world (honest question) ?

regards

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#Denmark



On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:16 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
wrote:



 On 21 May 2015 at 02:08, Ross i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:



 On 21/05/15 09:51, pmailkeey . wrote:



 On 20 May 2015 at 14:10, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote:

  Hi,

 We know that addr:housenumber
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr=* can be tagged on nodes
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#How_to_map_addresses and
 that it's very convenient.


  But wrong.


 Why?  It's all very well that this may be you opinion but the wiki and
 accepted practice says otherwise.



 Address = building = area, not node. It's 'accepted' as a second best
 option for where a building hasn't been drawn. I find quite a lot of them
 and remove them by transferring the data to the buildings - sometimes
 there's a building and a loose node containing the same data! In those
 cases, a simple node deletion is required.

 --
 Mike.
 @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
 For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
 via *the area's premier website - *

 *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family,
 property  pets*

 TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

There are apartment buildings where each apartment has a different house
number,  (and no, they are not unit or apartment numbers and yes 2 floors
with different apartments). [1]
Many discussions on the different OSM lists and fora have showed that in
different countries 1 building can have multiple addresses. e.g. with
entrances in 2 different streets, same building, 2 addresses. see e.g. [2]

So no reason to laugh I guess :-)

regards

m


[1] http://osm.org/go/0EpD1X0ge?m=relation=3899303
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/AddrN


On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:33 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
wrote:



 On 21 May 2015 at 11:22, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:

 Be careful in which country you do this, never do this in Denmark e.g. [1]
 How do you deal with buildings with multiple addresses ? Or does not not
 exist in your part of the world (honest question) ?

 regards

 [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#Denmark


 Thanks Marc, that's made me laugh - What is a building ?

 Is it a 'building' not connected to another building or is it an address -
 or does it vary ? A building as a row of houses (or flats, for that matter)
 has multiple addresses but each house is drawn as a building in its own
 right but touching the next one. Multiple addresses in one building is a
 little trickier and probably loose nodes are the answer to that. However,
 they should not contain any part of the 'external' address and be merely
 such as Flat 20.

 --
 Mike.
 @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
 For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
 via *the area's premier website - *

 *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family,
 property  pets*

 TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail

 ___
 Tagging mailing list
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

On 21 May 2015 at 10:13, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 2015-05-21 01:51, pmailkeey . wrote :


 Info shouldn't be duplicated or triplicated either.

   Please be clear and justify.
 Info is routinely in two places, e.g. building and associatedStreet, to
 cope with software or people that do not support one of the places.
 This is exactly the case.
 (and if you look for DE, FR etc, it's more than two places)

 Cheers

   André.


Another major OSM bug ! Buildings should have no more data than name/number
with regard to addressing as all the rest of the address should be
available elsewhere.


-- 
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
 pets*

TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-21 Thread Ross




On 21/05/15 20:16, pmailkeey . wrote:



On 21 May 2015 at 02:08, Ross i...@4x4falcon.com 
mailto:i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:




On 21/05/15 09:51, pmailkeey . wrote:



On 20 May 2015 at 14:10, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com
mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

We know that addr:housenumber
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr=* can be tagged
on nodes
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#How_to_map_addresses
and that it's very convenient.


But wrong.


Why?  It's all very well that this may be you opinion but the wiki
and accepted practice says otherwise.



Address = building = area, not node. It's 'accepted' as a second best 
option for where a building hasn't been drawn. I find quite a lot of 
them and remove them by transferring the data to the buildings - 
sometimes there's a building and a loose node containing the same 
data! In those cases, a simple node deletion is required.




Where is it accepted?

Australian addresses refer to the property only and a property may have 
several buildings.


I can show you plenty of locations where there is no building but it 
still has an address, or the property is so large that the access from 
the street/road is 50km from the only building on the property and if 
you were routing to the address you'd never get there if the address was 
on the building.


As someone else also pointed out, accepted practice in different 
countries varies.


Open address data in Australia is point (node) data and specifies what 
type of address it is, eg Driveway frontage, Building Centroid, 
Property Centroid, Property Access Point, to name a few.


The most significant of these is the Property Access Point it tends to 
occur where a property has an address in one street but because of 
different reasons (cliff, drainage, etc) the actual access is from 
another street, usually via a right of way.


IMO addresses should be on nodes only and should show were you access 
the property (type Driveway frontage, Property Access Point, 
Building Access Point) without anything else on the node. This way 
when you use a router it takes you to where you access the property.  
This also covers the accessibility issues for disabled access.


Cheers
Ross


--
Mike.
@millomweb 
https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all 
your info on Millom and South Copeland

via *the area's premier website - *
*
*
*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, 
property  pets*

*
*
TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail


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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

2015-05-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer





Am 21.05.2015 um 01:51 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com:

 We know that addr:housenumber=* can be tagged on nodes and that it's very 
 convenient.
 
 But wrong.


what/where do you refer to? Is it wrong where you are? Typically inferring from 
your own experience to every other possible  place on earth will lead to 
_wrong_ conclusions

Cheers 
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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area


  
  
On 2015-05-21 12:16, pmailkeey . wrote
  :


  

  On 21 May 2015 at 02:08, Ross i...@4x4falcon.com
wrote:

   
  
  On 21/05/15 09:51, pmailkeey . wrote:
  
  

  
On 20 May 2015 at
  14:10, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
 Hi,
  
  We know that addr:housenumber=* can be tagged on nodes
  and that it's very convenient.

  
  
  
  But wrong.

  

  
  
 Why?  It's all very well that this may be you
opinion but the wiki and accepted practice says
otherwise.
  


  
  
  
  Address = building = area, not node. It's 'accepted' as a
  second best option for where a building hasn't been drawn.
  

Please carefully read what I wrote, especially what's
written in bold so that no one misses it:

  That is the same number both on a node
(once) and on the way/relation that this node belongs to
(once)?

If the node belongs to the way of the building then the building has
not "not been drawn".
It has been drawn and the node belongs to its perimeter way.
Marc has just explained why we do that.

  
 I find quite a lot of them and remove
  them by transferring the data to the buildings - sometimes
  there's a building and a loose node containing the same data!
  In those cases, a simple node deletion is required.

  

A lot?  
Maybe that comes from the fuzzy explanations of /wiki/JOSM/Plugins/AddrInterpolation.
In addition, it [plugin] can create
  individual house number nodes from address interpolation ways that
  follow the address interpolation way numbering rule.

House number nodes
Converting Address Interpolation way to
individual house numbers

It speaks about creating number nodes but not of what to do with
them.
I personally move (not delete) the nodes to be part of the building
way at the entrance (with shortcut N).

Cheers



  

  André.

  



  

  


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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area