Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Warin]

On 26/05/18 23:13, Tod Fitch wrote:

On May 26, 2018, at 5:42 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:



sent from a phone


On 24. May 2018, at 05:47, Tod Fitch  wrote:

By the way, I don’t see a way to tag the accuracy or confidence level for a 
measurement. Seems like we ought to have something like *:confidence=*, similar 
to the *:lanes tagging so we could, for example tag the width of a road as:

width=18’0"
width:confidence=2’0"


I’m not sure we really need this, road width will have small variations anyway.


Road widths can vary. But a general method of tagging uncertainty could be 
useful for other things. It gives a way of indicating that the location of some 
items has been surveyed with professional equipment and techniques and is 
accurate to, say, a centimeter.


The variation of the road width should be included in the uncertainty.


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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Tod Fitch]

> On May 26, 2018, at 5:42 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 24. May 2018, at 05:47, Tod Fitch  wrote:
>> 
>> By the way, I don’t see a way to tag the accuracy or confidence level for a 
>> measurement. Seems like we ought to have something like *:confidence=*, 
>> similar to the *:lanes tagging so we could, for example tag the width of a 
>> road as:
>> 
>> width=18’0"
>> width:confidence=2’0"
> 
> 
> I’m not sure we really need this, road width will have small variations 
> anyway.
> 

Road widths can vary. But a general method of tagging uncertainty could be 
useful for other things. It gives a way of indicating that the location of some 
items has been surveyed with professional equipment and techniques and is 
accurate to, say, a centimeter.


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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. May 2018, at 05:47, Tod Fitch  wrote:
> 
> By the way, I don’t see a way to tag the accuracy or confidence level for a 
> measurement. Seems like we ought to have something like *:confidence=*, 
> similar to the *:lanes tagging so we could, for example tag the width of a 
> road as:
> 
> width=18’0"
> width:confidence=2’0"


I’m not sure we really need this, road width will have small variations anyway.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Warin]

On 24/05/18 13:47, Tod Fitch wrote:


On May 23, 2018, at 7:57 PM, Paul Johnson > wrote:


On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 10:34 AM, Tod Fitch > wrote:




On May 22, 2018, at 12:48 PM, Paul Johnson > wrote:

In the case of your typical bog standard American residential
street, I'm strongly disinclined to agree that this is a two
lane situation.  I'd be inclined to mark unpainted lanes in the
cases where channelization regularly occurs without the pavement
markings anyway. This isn't the case on residential streets, as
people will tend to drive right up the middle of such streets,
only movingly right to meet oncoming traffic and maybe when
approaching a stop sign.




Hmmm. I guess driving culture may vary from place to place in the
US. I always keep to the right regardless of the existence of a
lane markings. I will admit, however, that traffic studies
indicate that the average driver will be a bit more to the center
of the pavement if there are no lane markings. Similarly, at
least in residential areas, it has been found that drivers will
generally go slower if there is no center marking. At least that
is the rational my local government is using to remove the center
divider marking for traffic calming purposes.

While this may be true, most people will shy towards center (and 
perhaps even stay in center) for most of their trip down a standard 
width street (which, while typically 40 feet, this is /inclusive/ of 
all features including sidewalks, making the effective width of the 
roadway closer to 25 feet, a random pull from Mesa, Arizona's design 
guide  blindly from 
Google confirms this, with their design guide being 27 feet across 
between curbs), means that two full size pickups can (barely) pass 
two cars parked on opposite sides of the street at once.  That's also 
generously wide compared to a lot of places, many suburban and small 
town residential streets I've encountered are open-edged with parking 
off the paved area, and the paved area being maybe 20 feet on a 
particularly wide street.  New urbanist street designs are similarly, 
deliberately, narrow as a traffic calming measure, as parked vehicles 
will tend to provide de facto ad hoc chicanes.  As such, if lanes are 
marked at all, it's usually at the very ends of blocks only, where 
parking is prohibited, as a confirmation that the street is indeed 
two-way and provide a hint as to the default passing rule.


I have noticed that newer developments, especially infill development, 
have narrower residential roads than where I live. And I admit I did 
not look up current design standards. I simply took a tape measure to 
a number of residential streets in my neighborhood. The one in front 
of my house is 40’0" +/- 1" between the curbs. There are sidewalks but 
I excluded them from my 40’ number. Subjectively my current street 
seems about the same as others in the area and the same as my in 
previous neighborhood in a different city. Both neighborhoods are 
older, laid out when accommodating the automobile was high on the list 
of design criteria. It would be interesting to pull out the design 
standards that were in effect in the 1950s, 60s and 70s when much of 
our current suburbia was created. I would not be surprised if a lot of 
our current stock of residential roads are wider than the current 
standards specify.


By the way, I don’t see a way to tag the accuracy or confidence level 
for a measurement. Seems like we ought to have something like 
*:confidence=*, similar to the *:lanes tagging so we could, for 
example tag the width of a road as:


width=18’0"
width:confidence=2’0"

The metrology term is 'uncertainty' .. so

width:uncertainty=2'0"
To be complete there would need to be a statement of level of confidence 
and coverage factor.
However, for OSM simplicity, it could be assumed to have a normal 
distribution covering one standard deviation .. making the confidence 
level ~68% and the coverage factor ~1.
Of course the stated confidence level and coverage factor would be 
assessed by the next metrologist.


There is a rough wikipedea thing on it .. it is rough. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_uncertainty ...
Best to look at the second reference in that wikipedia page ... NPL do 
good articles.





If you are only estimating from the most likely source (allowable 
imagery) then you probably are not going to be much closer than 0.5 
meters or a couple of feet.


A confidence/accuracy tag would probably be another can of worms. How 
are you determining it? Statistically? One sigma? Two sigma? Or assume 
a single measurement but with a technique known to some typical error 
pattern?


But I digress.



I know that road design varies over the world 

Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Tod Fitch]

> On May 23, 2018, at 7:57 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 10:34 AM, Tod Fitch  > wrote:
> 
>> On May 22, 2018, at 12:48 PM, Paul Johnson > > wrote:
>> 
>> In the case of your typical bog standard American residential street, I'm 
>> strongly disinclined to agree that this is a two lane situation.  I'd be 
>> inclined to mark unpainted lanes in the cases where channelization regularly 
>> occurs without the pavement markings anyway.  This isn't the case on 
>> residential streets, as people will tend to drive right up the middle of 
>> such streets, only movingly right to meet oncoming traffic and maybe when 
>> approaching a stop sign.
>> 
> 
> Hmmm. I guess driving culture may vary from place to place in the US. I 
> always keep to the right regardless of the existence of a lane markings. I 
> will admit, however, that traffic studies indicate that the average driver 
> will be a bit more to the center of the pavement if there are no lane 
> markings. Similarly, at least in residential areas, it has been found that 
> drivers will generally go slower if there is no center marking. At least that 
> is the rational my local government is using to remove the center divider 
> marking for traffic calming purposes.
>  
> While this may be true, most people will shy towards center (and perhaps even 
> stay in center) for most of their trip down a standard width street (which, 
> while typically 40 feet, this is inclusive of all features including 
> sidewalks, making the effective width of the roadway closer to 25 feet, a 
> random pull from Mesa, Arizona's design guide 
>  blindly from Google 
> confirms this, with their design guide being 27 feet across between curbs), 
> means that two full size pickups can (barely) pass two cars parked on 
> opposite sides of the street at once.  That's also generously wide compared 
> to a lot of places, many suburban and small town residential streets I've 
> encountered are open-edged with parking off the paved area, and the paved 
> area being maybe 20 feet on a particularly wide street.  New urbanist street 
> designs are similarly, deliberately, narrow as a traffic calming measure, as 
> parked vehicles will tend to provide de facto ad hoc chicanes.  As such, if 
> lanes are marked at all, it's usually at the very ends of blocks only, where 
> parking is prohibited, as a confirmation that the street is indeed two-way 
> and provide a hint as to the default passing rule.

I have noticed that newer developments, especially infill development, have 
narrower residential roads than where I live. And I admit I did not look up 
current design standards. I simply took a tape measure to a number of 
residential streets in my neighborhood. The one in front of my house is 40’0" 
+/- 1" between the curbs. There are sidewalks but I excluded them from my 40’ 
number. Subjectively my current street seems about the same as others in the 
area and the same as my in previous neighborhood in a different city. Both 
neighborhoods are older, laid out when accommodating the automobile was high on 
the list of design criteria. It would be interesting to pull out the design 
standards that were in effect in the 1950s, 60s and 70s when much of our 
current suburbia was created. I would not be surprised if a lot of our current 
stock of residential roads are wider than the current standards specify.

By the way, I don’t see a way to tag the accuracy or confidence level for a 
measurement. Seems like we ought to have something like *:confidence=*, similar 
to the *:lanes tagging so we could, for example tag the width of a road as:

width=18’0"
width:confidence=2’0"

If you are only estimating from the most likely source (allowable imagery) then 
you probably are not going to be much closer than 0.5 meters or a couple of 
feet.

A confidence/accuracy tag would probably be another can of worms. How are you 
determining it? Statistically? One sigma? Two sigma? Or assume a single 
measurement but with a technique known to some typical error pattern?

But I digress.

> 
> I know that road design varies over the world and even, to a certain extent, 
> within different states in the United States. So this discussion is showing 
> different regional points of view. A typical, or to borrow the UK slang  “bog 
> standard”, American suburban residential street is wide enough for parallel 
> parking on each side and space for trucks/lorries to get past one another 
> [1]. Typical parking lanes are about 8 feet (2.4 meters) and a typical 
> traffic lane is 12 feet (3.7 meters). So a total pavement width is typically 
> around 40 feet (12.2 meters). In some parts of the world, even in older 
> crowded US cities, a road of that width might be striped for four lanes of 
> traffic. But a typical US residential 

Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 12:31 PM, yo paseopor  wrote:

> Case B: some pics before
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.46210902249982=12.
> 874923250143638=17=ygjsHztch9KkrIILOPA3Jg=
> photo=0.4957587433175=0.4652742508751958=0.3348214285714282
>
> lanes=1, impossible to be estimated:lanes=2 , instead of some itallian
> driver would try to overtake you for the right. There is no invitation at
> all, please be clever, be serious, think about all the vehicles that may
> use some osm app with these values. And also map for the safety of the
> different kind of drivers.
>

Plus in the US, this often isn't terribly different, as people will attempt
(smart and legal or otherwise) to pass bicycles on blind curves and whatnot
on a road like this, and there's a tendency to use residential streets as
defacto living streets, since we have no formalized concept of that in our
road designs, so the entire width is shared space with the only real
consistency being that parking is facing forward on the right hand curb or
just past the right edge of the paved surface.
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 10:34 AM, Tod Fitch  wrote:

>
> On May 22, 2018, at 12:48 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
> In the case of your typical bog standard American residential street, I'm
> strongly disinclined to agree that this is a two lane situation.  I'd be
> inclined to mark unpainted lanes in the cases where channelization
> regularly occurs without the pavement markings anyway.  This isn't the case
> on residential streets, as people will tend to drive right up the middle of
> such streets, only movingly right to meet oncoming traffic and maybe when
> approaching a stop sign.
>
>>
>
> Hmmm. I guess driving culture may vary from place to place in the US. I
> always keep to the right regardless of the existence of a lane markings. I
> will admit, however, that traffic studies indicate that the average driver
> will be a bit more to the center of the pavement if there are no lane
> markings. Similarly, at least in residential areas, it has been found that
> drivers will generally go slower if there is no center marking. At least
> that is the rational my local government is using to remove the center
> divider marking for traffic calming purposes.
>

While this may be true, most people will shy towards center (and perhaps
even stay in center) for most of their trip down a standard width street
(which, while typically 40 feet, this is *inclusive* of all features
including sidewalks, making the effective width of the roadway closer to 25
feet, a random pull from Mesa, Arizona's design guide
 blindly from Google
confirms this, with their design guide being 27 feet across between curbs),
means that two full size pickups can (barely) pass two cars parked on
opposite sides of the street at once.  That's also generously wide compared
to a lot of places, many suburban and small town residential streets I've
encountered are open-edged with parking off the paved area, and the paved
area being maybe 20 feet on a particularly wide street.  New urbanist
street designs are similarly, deliberately, narrow as a traffic calming
measure, as parked vehicles will tend to provide de facto ad hoc chicanes.
As such, if lanes are marked at all, it's usually at the very ends of
blocks only, where parking is prohibited, as a confirmation that the street
is indeed two-way and provide a hint as to the default passing rule.

I know that road design varies over the world and even, to a certain
> extent, within different states in the United States. So this discussion is
> showing different regional points of view. A typical, or to borrow the UK
> slang  “bog standard”, American suburban residential street is wide enough
> for parallel parking on each side and space for trucks/lorries to get past
> one another [1]. Typical parking lanes are about 8 feet (2.4 meters) and a
> typical traffic lane is 12 feet (3.7 meters). So a total pavement width is
> typically around 40 feet (12.2 meters). In some parts of the world, even in
> older crowded US cities, a road of that width might be striped for four
> lanes of traffic. But a typical US residential street has no lane markings.
>

US tends to favor 9 feet per lane and 6 or 7 foot parking strips for a full
size residential street (and combine with 6 feet being the minimum, 7
becoming common, and even wider in some places for the bike lane, this will
feel quite clausterphobic and many, if not most, drivers who will yield the
entire space to a vehicle passing a parked vehicle first to stay out of the
door zones).  Per federal guidelines, a boulevard would be at least 10,
preferably 11 foot lanes (and this will still feel quite narrow to most
American drivers).


> I can see the logic of only using the lanes tag if there is paint on the
> pavement. But that leads to another issue: It is pretty easy from
> experience to glance at a photo of a road and say it is wide enough for two
> lanes of traffic. But it is much harder for me to determine a width
> accurate to a couple of feet. I don’t see a way to show a measurement error
> estimate [2] and listing something as width=40'0" implies much more
> accuracy than a guess based on a quick visual survey or imagery actually
> provides.
>

Look for the wear marks, these will be quite prominent in sun-prone areas
and where concrete is used.  Generally speaking if there's defined lanes
that are just worn off, there will be wear marks where passing motorists
have rolled the same spot repeatedly.  This can often be confirmed with
your favorite license-compatible street-level imagery or a survey.  Though
if you're using JOSM and have suitably high resolution aerials available,
you can use JOSM to draw a line perpendicular to the way from curbface to
curbface to find the width.


> I am rambling. To the point, if I were to add my photo [1] to the urban
> highway tagging examples page of the wiki [3] what tags should it have. My
> current guess is:
>
> 

Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[yo paseopor]

Also I add

oneway=no

Salut i marques vials
yopaseopor

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 5:34 PM, Tod Fitch  wrote:

>
> On May 22, 2018, at 12:48 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
> In the case of your typical bog standard American residential street, I'm
> strongly disinclined to agree that this is a two lane situation.  I'd be
> inclined to mark unpainted lanes in the cases where channelization
> regularly occurs without the pavement markings anyway.  This isn't the case
> on residential streets, as people will tend to drive right up the middle of
> such streets, only movingly right to meet oncoming traffic and maybe when
> approaching a stop sign.
>
>>
>
> Hmmm. I guess driving culture may vary from place to place in the US. I
> always keep to the right regardless of the existence of a lane markings. I
> will admit, however, that traffic studies indicate that the average driver
> will be a bit more to the center of the pavement if there are no lane
> markings. Similarly, at least in residential areas, it has been found that
> drivers will generally go slower if there is no center marking. At least
> that is the rational my local government is using to remove the center
> divider marking for traffic calming purposes.
>
> I know that road design varies over the world and even, to a certain
> extent, within different states in the United States. So this discussion is
> showing different regional points of view. A typical, or to borrow the UK
> slang  “bog standard”, American suburban residential street is wide enough
> for parallel parking on each side and space for trucks/lorries to get past
> one another [1]. Typical parking lanes are about 8 feet (2.4 meters) and a
> typical traffic lane is 12 feet (3.7 meters). So a total pavement width is
> typically around 40 feet (12.2 meters). In some parts of the world, even in
> older crowded US cities, a road of that width might be striped for four
> lanes of traffic. But a typical US residential street has no lane markings.
>
> I can see the logic of only using the lanes tag if there is paint on the
> pavement. But that leads to another issue: It is pretty easy from
> experience to glance at a photo of a road and say it is wide enough for two
> lanes of traffic. But it is much harder for me to determine a width
> accurate to a couple of feet. I don’t see a way to show a measurement error
> estimate [2] and listing something as width=40'0" implies much more
> accuracy than a guess based on a quick visual survey or imagery actually
> provides.
>
> I am rambling. To the point, if I were to add my photo [1] to the urban
> highway tagging examples page of the wiki [3] what tags should it have. My
> current guess is:
>
> highway=residential
> parking:lane:both=parallel
> sidewalk=right
> surface=asphalt
> width=40'
>
> For the specific example given by the photo, what tags would you suggest.
>
> Thanks!
>
> [1] https://www.dropbox.com/s/1g3vt0egw4ntg7q/2018_0523_
> 072821_908_173.jpg?dl=0
> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units
> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_tagging_samples/urban
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[yo paseopor]

https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/6QXgHLK26FTMlmovwuaxfg
-For these reasons it is important the local knowledge . Instead you can
see in some parts of this street some road markings at the both sides I
assure you only one car fits in the unique lane it has along the street.
Try to pass two cars. It is not the unique street with this problem at that
town (Sant Pere de Ribes).
It is a very clear case of lanes=1 / and oneway=no

For the other answer I make a petition to the non-spanish speakers as I
cannot make a correct translation of this. Please use an automatic
translator for this sentence to understand the meaning:
"No hay webos de adelantar a la Guardia Civil en su propio carril por ancho
que este sea mientras ellos estén circulando y no hagan ninguna indicación
dejando paso, no los hay."

I insist .The number of lanes based in the road marks is an exact value of
an objective tag. An estimated lanes number without markings will be the
result of a big amount of subjective errors as the first you said with my
example.

I am agree with a new extra tag called divider or road_marks to ensure
there are or not road marks.

Salut i marques vials
yopaseopor


On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 7:15 AM, <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* yo paseopor <yopaseo...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 May 2018 04:11
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings
>
>
>
> oneway=no
>
> lanes=1
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYQQwOGMPC6imwyGhMHMCg
>
>
>
>
>
> I would consider that wrong.
>
>
>
> lanes=1
>
> oneway=no
>
>
>
> is a road that is so narrow that opposing traffic can only pass by slowing
> down and making use of shoulder/verge to pass each other. Or maybe even has
> the need to look for a https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Tag:highway=passing_place to be able to pass each other (like
> the example image shown on that page).
>
>
>
> What your image above shows is pretty clearly a lanes=2, which you can see
> very well by just following the street a few meters:
>
>
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/6QXgHLK26FTMlmovwuaxfg
>
>
>
> as you can see, there are clear road markings establishing two lanes.
>
>
>
>
>
> Here is an example of the roads I mean that should be tagged with
>
>
>
> lanes=2
>
> divider=no
>
> (oneway=no is normally implicit, so no need to tag it when there is no
> reason to wrongly assume a road should be oneway)
>
>
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/KQjnvNHHcOLKZj2P4pB2WQ
>
>
>
> You can see that the roads generally have no marked lanes, but at the
> T-intersection there are markings that make it clear the road is intended
> to be a two lane road.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Thorsten
>
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[yo paseopor]

Case B: some pics before
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.46210902249982=12.874923250143638=17=ygjsHztch9KkrIILOPA3Jg=photo=0.4957587433175=0.4652742508751958=0.3348214285714282

lanes=1, impossible to be estimated:lanes=2 , instead of some itallian
driver would try to overtake you for the right. There is no invitation at
all, please be clever, be serious, think about all the vehicles that may
use some osm app with these values. And also map for the safety of the
different kind of drivers.

Salut i marques vials
yopaseopor


On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> 2018-05-23 8:07 GMT+02:00 José G Moya Y. :
>
>> @Martin:I don't want to be a troll, but I feel there is some
>> inconsistence between answers in this thread and answers in cycle:lanes
>> last week.
>>
>
>
> Here are mapillary images for the 2 examples I gave,
> Case A, for me lanes=2, unmarked: https://www.mapillary.com/app/
> ?lat=42.19987521996=12.37958488039=17.080616229522438=
> dxeGLQKJpAKONnVjOyHCuQ=photo=0.5039420595168772=
> 0.5520701196885281=0
>
> Case B which is larger than case A, with 1 lane marked (but effectively 2
> lanes traffic), for which I agree to tag lanes=1
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.45943826996552=12.
> 876404262878054=17=r-semo9mp70dR08qELPgYw=photo
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.43346094747278=12.
> 935902815838062=15.827449025905015=3xxozoDy6nVpc8bd3-d-Fw=
> photo
> (there's no imagery for the exact spot I mentioned before, the images
> demonstrate the way it is built is inviting to use the shoulder)
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Tod Fitch]

> On May 22, 2018, at 12:48 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> In the case of your typical bog standard American residential street, I'm 
> strongly disinclined to agree that this is a two lane situation.  I'd be 
> inclined to mark unpainted lanes in the cases where channelization regularly 
> occurs without the pavement markings anyway.  This isn't the case on 
> residential streets, as people will tend to drive right up the middle of such 
> streets, only movingly right to meet oncoming traffic and maybe when 
> approaching a stop sign.
> 

Hmmm. I guess driving culture may vary from place to place in the US. I always 
keep to the right regardless of the existence of a lane markings. I will admit, 
however, that traffic studies indicate that the average driver will be a bit 
more to the center of the pavement if there are no lane markings. Similarly, at 
least in residential areas, it has been found that drivers will generally go 
slower if there is no center marking. At least that is the rational my local 
government is using to remove the center divider marking for traffic calming 
purposes.

I know that road design varies over the world and even, to a certain extent, 
within different states in the United States. So this discussion is showing 
different regional points of view. A typical, or to borrow the UK slang  “bog 
standard”, American suburban residential street is wide enough for parallel 
parking on each side and space for trucks/lorries to get past one another [1]. 
Typical parking lanes are about 8 feet (2.4 meters) and a typical traffic lane 
is 12 feet (3.7 meters). So a total pavement width is typically around 40 feet 
(12.2 meters). In some parts of the world, even in older crowded US cities, a 
road of that width might be striped for four lanes of traffic. But a typical US 
residential street has no lane markings.

I can see the logic of only using the lanes tag if there is paint on the 
pavement. But that leads to another issue: It is pretty easy from experience to 
glance at a photo of a road and say it is wide enough for two lanes of traffic. 
But it is much harder for me to determine a width accurate to a couple of feet. 
I don’t see a way to show a measurement error estimate [2] and listing 
something as width=40'0" implies much more accuracy than a guess based on a 
quick visual survey or imagery actually provides.

I am rambling. To the point, if I were to add my photo [1] to the urban highway 
tagging examples page of the wiki [3] what tags should it have. My current 
guess is:

highway=residential
parking:lane:both=parallel
sidewalk=right
surface=asphalt
width=40'

For the specific example given by the photo, what tags would you suggest.

Thanks!

[1] https://www.dropbox.com/s/1g3vt0egw4ntg7q/2018_0523_072821_908_173.jpg?dl=0
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_tagging_samples/urban___
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[José G Moya Y .]

El mié., 23 de mayo de 2018 9:28, Javier Sánchez Portero <
javiers...@gmail.com> escribió:

>
>
> Anyway, for your example of the LR-333 road, most of the time it isn't
> enough wide for two cars to pass comfortably (see here
> https://goo.gl/maps/6PC2Wfkfw7A2 like the van has to put the wheel in the
> border line and probably stop). In this case, lanes=1, oneway=no is the
> best tagging.
>

I don't know why is this image tagged as LR-333, since this is
CL--SO-Whatever (Soria side). My interest was in how to tag the Rioja-style
twoway-onelane roads, which are marked as twolane roads with a nonstandard
road sign with the text "línea central solo marca eje carretera" (middle
line just marks middle of road").
According to wiki definition, that way would be considered twolane (since
the only standard marking on it is a lane divisor), despite of being a
defacto onelane road.
(Painting a single line on the middle is cheaper than painting a line on
each border).

Anyway, the entire riad (all segments) should be tagged as Javier says.

>
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-05-23 8:07 GMT+02:00 José G Moya Y. :

> @Martin:I don't want to be a troll, but I feel there is some inconsistence
> between answers in this thread and answers in cycle:lanes last week.
>


Here are mapillary images for the 2 examples I gave,
Case A, for me lanes=2, unmarked:
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=42.19987521996=12.37958488039=17.080616229522438=dxeGLQKJpAKONnVjOyHCuQ=photo=0.5039420595168772=0.5520701196885281=0

Case B which is larger than case A, with 1 lane marked (but effectively 2
lanes traffic), for which I agree to tag lanes=1
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.45943826996552=12.876404262878054=17=r-semo9mp70dR08qELPgYw=photo
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.43346094747278=12.935902815838062=15.827449025905015=3xxozoDy6nVpc8bd3-d-Fw=photo
(there's no imagery for the exact spot I mentioned before, the images
demonstrate the way it is built is inviting to use the shoulder)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[osm.tagging]

From: Javier Sánchez Portero <javiers...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2018 17:27
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

 

Anyway, for your example of the LR-333 road, most of the time it isn't enough 
wide for two cars to pass comfortably (see here 
https://goo.gl/maps/6PC2Wfkfw7A2 like the van has to put the wheel in the 
border line and probably stop). In this case, lanes=1, oneway=no is the best 
tagging. 

 

I agree that for this particular road lanes=1 is appropriate. Some people may 
tag it as lanes=1.5. But I find non-integer values for lanes quite problematic.

 

You could use lanes:both_ways=1 (in addition to lanes=1) to be explicit about 
it, but that is sort of implied. (In the absence of oneway=yes or an explicit 
lanes:forward or lanes:backward, if the lanes count is odd, it’s assumed the 
middle lane is both_ways while the remaining lanes are evenly split between 
forward and backward).

 

 

Would you tag the same in GC-210 road?: 
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/v_G65XwwVnjf0u3i0RxRqA

What I suggest is that the tagging division=no is correct for examples like 
this.

 

 

This one looks like the prototypical:

 

lanes=2

divider=no

 

I don’t think anyone could argue this is a lanes:both_ways=1 (which would be 
implied by lanes=1 oneway=no, even if not explicitly tagged).

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Javier Sánchez Portero]

Hi Jose

The facts of be able (or not) to overtake and drive in the middle (as Paul
says) are interesting but not necessary relevant for the discussion (IMO).

Anyway, for your example of the LR-333 road, most of the time it isn't
enough wide for two cars to pass comfortably (see here
https://goo.gl/maps/6PC2Wfkfw7A2 like the van has to put the wheel in the
border line and probably stop). In this case, lanes=1, oneway=no is the
best tagging. Would you tag the same in GC-210 road?:
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/v_G65XwwVnjf0u3i0RxRqA

What I suggest is that the tagging division=no is correct for examples like
this.

2018-05-23 7:07 GMT+01:00 José G Moya Y. <josem...@gmail.com>:

> @Martin:I don't want to be a troll, but I feel there is some inconsistence
> between answers in this thread and answers in cycle:lanes last week.
>
> @javier, yopaseopor: I don't drive, but I think you can overtake a Guardia
> Civil car in two-way roads where there are one lane.
> The cycle:lane thread told much about what is and isn't to be marked as
> lane, and one case came to my mind.
>  Think of the road from Villoslada de Cameros, Rioja, Spain and Montenegro
> de Cameros, Soria, SameCountry. Rioja side is a two-fake-lanes road ("line
> between lanes just mark centre of road") while Soria side is a two way one
> lane road (markings at sides of the road). The width of the road is the
> same.
>
>
>
> P.D. Enviado desde un móvil (celular). Disculpe las erratas. No veo bien
> la pantalla...
>
> El 23/5/2018 7:16, <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> escribió:
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* yo paseopor <yopaseo...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 May 2018 04:11
>
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings
>
>
>
> oneway=no
>
> lanes=1
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYQQwOGMPC6imwyGhMHMCg
>
>
>
>
>
> I would consider that wrong.
>
>
>
> lanes=1
>
> oneway=no
>
>
>
> is a road that is so narrow that opposing traffic can only pass by slowing
> down and making use of shoulder/verge to pass each other. Or maybe even has
> the need to look for a https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Tag:highway=passing_place to be able to pass each other (like
> the example image shown on that page).
>
>
>
> What your image above shows is pretty clearly a lanes=2, which you can see
> very well by just following the street a few meters:
>
>
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/6QXgHLK26FTMlmovwuaxfg
>
>
>
> as you can see, there are clear road markings establishing two lanes.
>
>
>
>
>
> Here is an example of the roads I mean that should be tagged with
>
>
>
> lanes=2
>
> divider=no
>
> (oneway=no is normally implicit, so no need to tag it when there is no
> reason to wrongly assume a road should be oneway)
>
>
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/KQjnvNHHcOLKZj2P4pB2WQ
>
>
>
> You can see that the roads generally have no marked lanes, but at the
> T-intersection there are markings that make it clear the road is intended
> to be a two lane road.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Thorsten
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Selfish Seahorse]

On 23 May 2018 at 08:07, José G Moya Y.  wrote:
> @Martin:I don't want to be a troll, but I feel there is some inconsistence
> between answers in this thread and answers in cycle:lanes last week.

Exactly. I too prefer to not dilute the current definition of the
lanes key because it corresponds to what a lane is:

'A division of a road marked off with painted lines ...'
(https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/lane)

On 22 May 2018 at 19:45,   wrote:
> Personally, I tend to tag roads that are wide enough for 2 lanes (two cars 
> can pass each other without noticeably slowing down) and which are clearly 
> meant to be two lane (one lane each direction) roads with:
>
> lanes=2
> divider=no

This is subjective. If two cars can pass there, this doesn't also mean
that two buses or lorries can pass (or a bus/lorry and a car).

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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[José G Moya Y .]

@Martin:I don't want to be a troll, but I feel there is some inconsistence
between answers in this thread and answers in cycle:lanes last week.

@javier, yopaseopor: I don't drive, but I think you can overtake a Guardia
Civil car in two-way roads where there are one lane.
The cycle:lane thread told much about what is and isn't to be marked as
lane, and one case came to my mind.
 Think of the road from Villoslada de Cameros, Rioja, Spain and Montenegro
de Cameros, Soria, SameCountry. Rioja side is a two-fake-lanes road ("line
between lanes just mark centre of road") while Soria side is a two way one
lane road (markings at sides of the road). The width of the road is the
same.



P.D. Enviado desde un móvil (celular). Disculpe las erratas. No veo bien la
pantalla...

El 23/5/2018 7:16, <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> escribió:





*From:* yo paseopor <yopaseo...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, 23 May 2018 04:11

*To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
*Subject:* Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings



oneway=no

lanes=1

https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYQQwOGMPC6imwyGhMHMCg





I would consider that wrong.



lanes=1

oneway=no



is a road that is so narrow that opposing traffic can only pass by slowing
down and making use of shoulder/verge to pass each other. Or maybe even has
the need to look for a
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=passing_place to be able to
pass each other (like the example image shown on that page).



What your image above shows is pretty clearly a lanes=2, which you can see
very well by just following the street a few meters:



https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/6QXgHLK26FTMlmovwuaxfg



as you can see, there are clear road markings establishing two lanes.





Here is an example of the roads I mean that should be tagged with



lanes=2

divider=no

(oneway=no is normally implicit, so no need to tag it when there is no
reason to wrongly assume a road should be oneway)



https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/KQjnvNHHcOLKZj2P4pB2WQ



You can see that the roads generally have no marked lanes, but at the
T-intersection there are markings that make it clear the road is intended
to be a two lane road.



Cheers,

Thorsten
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[osm.tagging]

 

 

From: yo paseopor <yopaseo...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2018 04:11
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

 

oneway=no

lanes=1

https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYQQwOGMPC6imwyGhMHMCg

 

 

I would consider that wrong.

 

lanes=1

oneway=no 

 

is a road that is so narrow that opposing traffic can only pass by slowing down 
and making use of shoulder/verge to pass each other. Or maybe even has the need 
to look for a https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=passing_place to 
be able to pass each other (like the example image shown on that page).

 

What your image above shows is pretty clearly a lanes=2, which you can see very 
well by just following the street a few meters:

 

https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/6QXgHLK26FTMlmovwuaxfg

 

as you can see, there are clear road markings establishing two lanes.

 

 

Here is an example of the roads I mean that should be tagged with

 

lanes=2

divider=no

(oneway=no is normally implicit, so no need to tag it when there is no reason 
to wrongly assume a road should be oneway)

 

https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/KQjnvNHHcOLKZj2P4pB2WQ

 

You can see that the roads generally have no marked lanes, but at the 
T-intersection there are markings that make it clear the road is intended to be 
a two lane road.

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, May 22, 2018, 11:29 Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> 2018-05-22 17:18 GMT+02:00 Tod Fitch :
>
>> In reviewing the wiki in preparation to fixing some of my older mapping,
>> it seems there is an inconsistency in how to tag a road that is wide enough
>> to two lanes of traffic but is lacking lane striping.
>>
>> In the lanes description [1] it says "the lanes=* key should be used to
>> specify the total number of marked lanes of a road." But in the out of town
>> highway tagging sample page [2] with a photo described as "smaller road,
>> maybe tertiary with appropriate administrative status" it shows a lane
>> count on a road with no markings.
>>
>> Am I correct in believing that the example photo should have its tagging
>> changed, dropping the lanes=2 and adding a width tag (if the width is known
>> or can be reasonably estimated)?
>>
>
>
> From practise in my area I would think we should drop the requirement of
> road markings and leave more freedom to the mapper. If a road is wide
> enough for 2 lanes and traffic is using 2 lanes, but there are no road
> markings, or currently no road markings, or mostly no road markings, I
> would still tag allow to tag 2 lanes. We could add a tag about road
> markings, or maybe absence of road markings.
> I'm unsure whether to differentiate absence of road markings because they
> are not deemed necessary from absence where they once were there but are
> not visible any more and someday might return.
>
> For example on a typical provincial country road with clearly 2 lanes
> there will often be no markings. (IMHO lanes=2 as it would be implied also
> when not setting a lanes tag), while in another case the situation is more
> ambiguous. This is a primary with a wide dual-carriageway, where 2 cars
> sometimes fit, while sometimes would require the slower driver to drive on
> the shoulder (what actually happens) so the other can overtake. I would be
> reluctant to tag these roads with 1.5-2 lanes (unmarked) as lanes=2 (in OSM
> it is indeed one lane).
>
> references, case A: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/487717815
> case B: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/90537120
> if you pay attention on google you can see how it is used as 2 lanes and
> even a car surpass:
> https://www.google.it/maps/@41.392393,13.0069698,167m/data=!3m1!1e3
>
> We've also seen the example of the residential area in Australia where
> only the intersections had road markings.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> My current interest is in fixing the tagging for residential roads that
>> are wide enough for bi-directional traffic with legal parallel parking but
>> have no markings on the pavement. I don't see a exact match to that in
>> either the urban [3] or rural highway [2] tagging example pages.
>>
>> To use the street I live on as an example, am I correct that a
>> residential road with bidirectional traffic and parallel parking with no
>> markings should be tagged as:
>>
>> highway=residential
>> surface=asphalt
>> parking:lane:both=parallel
>> width=40’0"
>> maxspeed=25 mph
>>
>>
>
> to me this seems lanes=2
>

In the case of your typical bog standard American residential street, I'm
strongly disinclined to agree that this is a two lane situation.  I'd be
inclined to mark unpainted lanes in the cases where channelization
regularly occurs without the pavement markings anyway.  This isn't the case
on residential streets, as people will tend to drive right up the middle of
such streets, only movingly right to meet oncoming traffic and maybe when
approaching a stop sign.

>
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Javier Sánchez Portero]

I'm not completely sure of what you want tou express. When you say "a
oneway one-wide-lane", I think you refers to a oneway=yes, lanes=1 (correct
me if not). I'm referring to a two way road (oneway=no) with enough width
for two approaching cars to pass each other without having to slow down or
use the shoulder.

In this kind of way, having enough space) you could leagally overtake any
vehicle if there isn't a restriction sign, even if it's a police one. I
have many examples of this around.

Regards, Javier

El mar., 22 may. 2018 19:31, yo paseopor  escribió:

> Javier, I don't know if it has enough sense to use a new tag to tag
> something we have already tagged or not. But try it in Spain, overtake a
> Guardia Civil de tráfico car or motorbike in a oneway one-wide-lane and
> expect it ;)
>
> Salut i marques viales
> yopaseopor
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[yo paseopor]

Javier, I don't know if it has enough sense to use a new tag to tag
something we have already tagged or not. But try it in Spain, overtake a
Guardia Civil de tráfico car or motorbike in a oneway one-wide-lane and
expect it ;)

Salut i marques viales
yopaseopor
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Javier Sánchez Portero]

I agree with the solution mentioned by Thorsten. The keys oneway=no +
[lanes=2] + division=no have much more sense to me than tagging lanes=1 +
oneway=no for this kind of highway (just the same width that a two lanes
way but without division).

A proper value could serve to indicate also that the division was present
once ago but actually are blured, as Martin suggested.

I would like a proposal for the division key and a clarification in they
key lanes wiki.

Cheers, Javier


El mar., 22 may. 2018 18:46,  escribió:

> Personally, I tend to tag roads that are wide enough for 2 lanes (two cars
> can pass each other without noticeably slowing down) and which are clearly
> meant to be two lane (one lane each direction) roads with:
>
> lanes=2
> divider=no
>
> Yes, I know that is in violation of the strict reading of the wiki, but I
> feel it makes sense, and as far as I can determine, tagging roads that are
> meant to have two lanes with lanes=2 even in the absence of such road
> markings seems to be pretty widespread practice. (The use of the divider
> tag isn't very widespread, but again, I feel it makes sense in this
> context.)
>
> Cheers,
> Thorsten
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Tod Fitch 
> > Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2018 01:18
> > To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> > 
> > Subject: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane
> > markings
> >
> > In reviewing the wiki in preparation to fixing some of my older
> > mapping, it seems there is an inconsistency in how to tag a road
> > that is wide enough to two lanes of traffic but is lacking lane
> > striping.
> >
> > In the lanes description [1] it says "the lanes=* key should be
> > used to specify the total number of marked lanes of a road." But in
> > the out of town highway tagging sample page [2] with a photo
> > described as "smaller road, maybe tertiary with appropriate
> > administrative status" it shows a lane count on a road with no
> > markings.
> >
> > Am I correct in believing that the example photo should have its
> > tagging changed, dropping the lanes=2 and adding a width tag (if
> > the width is known or can be reasonably estimated)?
> >
> > My current interest is in fixing the tagging for residential roads
> > that are wide enough for bi-directional traffic with legal parallel
> > parking but have no markings on the pavement. I don't see a exact
> > match to that in either the urban [3] or rural highway [2] tagging
> > example pages.
> >
> > To use the street I live on as an example, am I correct that a
> > residential road with bidirectional traffic and parallel parking
> > with no markings should be tagged as:
> >
> > highway=residential
> > surface=asphalt
> > parking:lane:both=parallel
> > width=40’0"
> > maxspeed=25 mph
> >
> > If, and only if, a center strip is added then lanes=2 should be
> > added. (I actually measured the width in this case but for hope to
> > be able to use the measurement tool on aerial imagery in JOSM for
> > most cases).
> >
> > Is my current understanding correct? If so, I will update the wiki
> > pages for both the urban and rural highway tagging examples to
> > reflect that and will take some photos of the roads in my area to
> > make additional examples.
> >
> >
> > [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes#Description
> > [2]
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_tagging_samples/out_of_
> > town
> > [3]
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_tagging_samples/urban
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-05-22 20:10 GMT+02:00 yo paseopor :

>
> Think about it : with more than one lane you can overtake legally. With
> only one lane you cannot overtake in your same direction because you don't
> have any lane to pass by.
>


Not sure about the jurisdiction you write about, but also this is perfectly
legal, at least in Germany. You don't need to have a lane for overtaking,
you just have to have sufficient space to not endanger anyone and you must
not cross a continuous divider line (and there must not be a sign that
forbids overtaking).




> If the streetof only one lane is wide enough you can pass a stopped car,
> but you cannot overtake it if they are moving also. Ask it to the police.
>


different law in different countries.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-05-22 18:33 GMT+02:00 yo paseopor :

>  One of the problems of driving in Rome is that people overtakes you in a
> one-lane-street for every side they can turn it. If police would punished
> them this problem will not exist as not exists in the other countries of
> Europe.
>



in Germany this is perfectly legal (I believe in Italy it is not), you can
use any lane you like inside settlements.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[yo paseopor]

You have other tags to mark there is more than one direction:
oneway=no

I think it is important to  keep the sense of the wiki, why?
Because , with data you can "imagine" (or render) some kind of reality. It
is not the same:

1
oneway=no
lanes=1
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYQQwOGMPC6imwyGhMHMCg

2
oneway=no
lanes=2
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/xg8szNBm0vd2ESAkjds1DA

3
oneway=yes
lanes=1
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/OxpRJfW_9qy_Z8QL4NoWXw

4
oneway=yes
lanes=2
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/oENxpXhruhvcFszNlkudtg

Think about it : with more than one lane you can overtake legally. With
only one lane you cannot overtake in your same direction because you don't
have any lane to pass by. If the streetof only one lane is wide enough you
can pass a stopped car, but you cannot overtake it if they are moving also.
Ask it to the police. I think is interesting to keep the meaning of the
tagging scheme.

May we have to retag all the oneway=no without lanes all over the world?
May we have to add a new tag called divider (or similar?) . For me if
divider=yes lanes > 1 , if divider=no lanes = 1 so I don't need a new tag
to remark it.

Salut i marques vials (Health and road marks)
yopaseopor

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 7:45 PM,  wrote:

> Personally, I tend to tag roads that are wide enough for 2 lanes (two cars
> can pass each other without noticeably slowing down) and which are clearly
> meant to be two lane (one lane each direction) roads with:
>
> lanes=2
> divider=no
>
> Yes, I know that is in violation of the strict reading of the wiki, but I
> feel it makes sense, and as far as I can determine, tagging roads that are
> meant to have two lanes with lanes=2 even in the absence of such road
> markings seems to be pretty widespread practice. (The use of the divider
> tag isn't very widespread, but again, I feel it makes sense in this
> context.)
>
> Cheers,
> Thorsten
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Tod Fitch 
> > Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2018 01:18
> > To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> > 
> > Subject: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane
> > markings
> >
> > In reviewing the wiki in preparation to fixing some of my older
> > mapping, it seems there is an inconsistency in how to tag a road
> > that is wide enough to two lanes of traffic but is lacking lane
> > striping.
> >
> > In the lanes description [1] it says "the lanes=* key should be
> > used to specify the total number of marked lanes of a road." But in
> > the out of town highway tagging sample page [2] with a photo
> > described as "smaller road, maybe tertiary with appropriate
> > administrative status" it shows a lane count on a road with no
> > markings.
> >
> > Am I correct in believing that the example photo should have its
> > tagging changed, dropping the lanes=2 and adding a width tag (if
> > the width is known or can be reasonably estimated)?
> >
> > My current interest is in fixing the tagging for residential roads
> > that are wide enough for bi-directional traffic with legal parallel
> > parking but have no markings on the pavement. I don't see a exact
> > match to that in either the urban [3] or rural highway [2] tagging
> > example pages.
> >
> > To use the street I live on as an example, am I correct that a
> > residential road with bidirectional traffic and parallel parking
> > with no markings should be tagged as:
> >
> > highway=residential
> > surface=asphalt
> > parking:lane:both=parallel
> > width=40’0"
> > maxspeed=25 mph
> >
> > If, and only if, a center strip is added then lanes=2 should be
> > added. (I actually measured the width in this case but for hope to
> > be able to use the measurement tool on aerial imagery in JOSM for
> > most cases).
> >
> > Is my current understanding correct? If so, I will update the wiki
> > pages for both the urban and rural highway tagging examples to
> > reflect that and will take some photos of the roads in my area to
> > make additional examples.
> >
> >
> > [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes#Description
> > [2]
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_tagging_samples/out_of_
> > town
> > [3]
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_tagging_samples/urban
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-05-22 18:33 GMT+02:00 yo paseopor :

> I'm not agree with that , Martin
> Road markings are real, touchable, checkable, objective...estimated width
> and estimated lanes not. OSM data serves to a lot of apps with lane
> indications, if we drop this then the apps will show erroneous information
> or less exact information.
>
>  One of the problems of driving in Rome is that people overtakes you in a
> one-lane-street for every side they can turn it. If police would punished
> them this problem will not exist as not exists in the other countries of
> Europe.
>


I have explicitly not cited Rome but other places, including Australia, and
I believe it is common on a global level not to have always road markings
on a 2 lane road. As I said, I wouldn't tag 2 lanes in cases where you have
to slow down in order to pass an approaching vehicle, or use the shoulder,
but there are many places with sufficient space and ordinary 2 lane
traffic, just no markings.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[osm.tagging]

Personally, I tend to tag roads that are wide enough for 2 lanes (two cars can 
pass each other without noticeably slowing down) and which are clearly meant to 
be two lane (one lane each direction) roads with:

lanes=2
divider=no

Yes, I know that is in violation of the strict reading of the wiki, but I feel 
it makes sense, and as far as I can determine, tagging roads that are meant to 
have two lanes with lanes=2 even in the absence of such road markings seems to 
be pretty widespread practice. (The use of the divider tag isn't very 
widespread, but again, I feel it makes sense in this context.)

Cheers,
Thorsten

> -Original Message-
> From: Tod Fitch 
> Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2018 01:18
> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> 
> Subject: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane
> markings
> 
> In reviewing the wiki in preparation to fixing some of my older
> mapping, it seems there is an inconsistency in how to tag a road
> that is wide enough to two lanes of traffic but is lacking lane
> striping.
> 
> In the lanes description [1] it says "the lanes=* key should be
> used to specify the total number of marked lanes of a road." But in
> the out of town highway tagging sample page [2] with a photo
> described as "smaller road, maybe tertiary with appropriate
> administrative status" it shows a lane count on a road with no
> markings.
> 
> Am I correct in believing that the example photo should have its
> tagging changed, dropping the lanes=2 and adding a width tag (if
> the width is known or can be reasonably estimated)?
> 
> My current interest is in fixing the tagging for residential roads
> that are wide enough for bi-directional traffic with legal parallel
> parking but have no markings on the pavement. I don't see a exact
> match to that in either the urban [3] or rural highway [2] tagging
> example pages.
> 
> To use the street I live on as an example, am I correct that a
> residential road with bidirectional traffic and parallel parking
> with no markings should be tagged as:
> 
> highway=residential
> surface=asphalt
> parking:lane:both=parallel
> width=40’0"
> maxspeed=25 mph
> 
> If, and only if, a center strip is added then lanes=2 should be
> added. (I actually measured the width in this case but for hope to
> be able to use the measurement tool on aerial imagery in JOSM for
> most cases).
> 
> Is my current understanding correct? If so, I will update the wiki
> pages for both the urban and rural highway tagging examples to
> reflect that and will take some photos of the roads in my area to
> make additional examples.
> 
> 
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes#Description
> [2]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_tagging_samples/out_of_
> town
> [3]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_tagging_samples/urban
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[yo paseopor]

I'm not agree with that , Martin
Road markings are real, touchable, checkable, objective...estimated width
and estimated lanes not. OSM data serves to a lot of apps with lane
indications, if we drop this then the apps will show erroneous information
or less exact information.

 One of the problems of driving in Rome is that people overtakes you in a
one-lane-street for every side they can turn it. If police would punished
them this problem will not exist as not exists in the other countries of
Europe.
Tagging in OSM has to be clear, scalable, objective...as road marks should
be.

Salut i marques vials
yopaseopor


On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 5:18 PM, Tod Fitch  wrote:

> In reviewing the wiki in preparation to fixing some of my older mapping,
> it seems there is an inconsistency in how to tag a road that is wide enough
> to two lanes of traffic but is lacking lane striping.
>
> In the lanes description [1] it says "the lanes=* key should be used to
> specify the total number of marked lanes of a road." But in the out of town
> highway tagging sample page [2] with a photo described as "smaller road,
> maybe tertiary with appropriate administrative status" it shows a lane
> count on a road with no markings.
>
> Am I correct in believing that the example photo should have its tagging
> changed, dropping the lanes=2 and adding a width tag (if the width is known
> or can be reasonably estimated)?
>
> My current interest is in fixing the tagging for residential roads that
> are wide enough for bi-directional traffic with legal parallel parking but
> have no markings on the pavement. I don't see a exact match to that in
> either the urban [3] or rural highway [2] tagging example pages.
>
> To use the street I live on as an example, am I correct that a residential
> road with bidirectional traffic and parallel parking with no markings
> should be tagged as:
>
> highway=residential
> surface=asphalt
> parking:lane:both=parallel
> width=40’0"
> maxspeed=25 mph
>
> If, and only if, a center strip is added then lanes=2 should be added. (I
> actually measured the width in this case but for hope to be able to use the
> measurement tool on aerial imagery in JOSM for most cases).
>
> Is my current understanding correct? If so, I will update the wiki pages
> for both the urban and rural highway tagging examples to reflect that and
> will take some photos of the roads in my area to make additional examples.
>
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes#Description
> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_tagging_
> samples/out_of_town
> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_tagging_samples/urban
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Sample tagging for highways with no lane markings

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-05-22 17:18 GMT+02:00 Tod Fitch :

> In reviewing the wiki in preparation to fixing some of my older mapping,
> it seems there is an inconsistency in how to tag a road that is wide enough
> to two lanes of traffic but is lacking lane striping.
>
> In the lanes description [1] it says "the lanes=* key should be used to
> specify the total number of marked lanes of a road." But in the out of town
> highway tagging sample page [2] with a photo described as "smaller road,
> maybe tertiary with appropriate administrative status" it shows a lane
> count on a road with no markings.
>
> Am I correct in believing that the example photo should have its tagging
> changed, dropping the lanes=2 and adding a width tag (if the width is known
> or can be reasonably estimated)?
>


>From practise in my area I would think we should drop the requirement of
road markings and leave more freedom to the mapper. If a road is wide
enough for 2 lanes and traffic is using 2 lanes, but there are no road
markings, or currently no road markings, or mostly no road markings, I
would still tag allow to tag 2 lanes. We could add a tag about road
markings, or maybe absence of road markings.
I'm unsure whether to differentiate absence of road markings because they
are not deemed necessary from absence where they once were there but are
not visible any more and someday might return.

For example on a typical provincial country road with clearly 2 lanes there
will often be no markings. (IMHO lanes=2 as it would be implied also when
not setting a lanes tag), while in another case the situation is more
ambiguous. This is a primary with a wide dual-carriageway, where 2 cars
sometimes fit, while sometimes would require the slower driver to drive on
the shoulder (what actually happens) so the other can overtake. I would be
reluctant to tag these roads with 1.5-2 lanes (unmarked) as lanes=2 (in OSM
it is indeed one lane).

references, case A: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/487717815
case B: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/90537120
if you pay attention on google you can see how it is used as 2 lanes and
even a car surpass:
https://www.google.it/maps/@41.392393,13.0069698,167m/data=!3m1!1e3

We've also seen the example of the residential area in Australia where only
the intersections had road markings.




>
> My current interest is in fixing the tagging for residential roads that
> are wide enough for bi-directional traffic with legal parallel parking but
> have no markings on the pavement. I don't see a exact match to that in
> either the urban [3] or rural highway [2] tagging example pages.
>
> To use the street I live on as an example, am I correct that a residential
> road with bidirectional traffic and parallel parking with no markings
> should be tagged as:
>
> highway=residential
> surface=asphalt
> parking:lane:both=parallel
> width=40’0"
> maxspeed=25 mph
>
>

to me this seems lanes=2



> If, and only if, a center strip is added then lanes=2 should be added. (I
> actually measured the width in this case but for hope to be able to use the
> measurement tool on aerial imagery in JOSM for most cases).
>
> Is my current understanding correct?



it is the literal reading of the lanes tag description, but as you pointed
out, it conflicts with other parts of the wiki. And if you don't add a
lanes tag, the common default is lanes=2.

What do you think about a new tag for the absence of road markings?


Cheers,
Martin
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