Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Hakuch]

There I asked to form a working group for a project like this. Because I
myself don't have the time or capacity to work on this alone. It would
even be better when more people could participate in something like this

On 25.02.2016 22:48, Dominic Coletti wrote:
> I am not literate in German, but I think the idea of a dedicated website to
> proposal, or at least a tool outside of the Wiki proper would be very
> helpful.
> 
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:46 PM Hakuch  wrote:
> 
>> On 25.02.2016 06:57, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>> How can we let more people with more different backgrounds participate in
>>> the tagging definition process ? And do we want this ?
>>>
>>> I have no idea.
>>>
>>
>> just before I read this topic, I started a thread in the (german, sorry)
>> forum to discuss about a Proposal Tool. I think it would help if we
>> would have a nice, clear and well arranged Website/Tool for proposal and
>> voting.
>>
>> http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=53748
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Dominic Coletti]

I am not literate in German, but I think the idea of a dedicated website to
proposal, or at least a tool outside of the Wiki proper would be very
helpful.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:46 PM Hakuch  wrote:

> On 25.02.2016 06:57, Marc Gemis wrote:
> > How can we let more people with more different backgrounds participate in
> > the tagging definition process ? And do we want this ?
> >
> > I have no idea.
> >
>
> just before I read this topic, I started a thread in the (german, sorry)
> forum to discuss about a Proposal Tool. I think it would help if we
> would have a nice, clear and well arranged Website/Tool for proposal and
> voting.
>
> http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=53748
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Hakuch]

On 25.02.2016 06:57, Marc Gemis wrote:
> How can we let more people with more different backgrounds participate in
> the tagging definition process ? And do we want this ?
>
> I have no idea.
>

just before I read this topic, I started a thread in the (german, sorry)
forum to discuss about a Proposal Tool. I think it would help if we
would have a nice, clear and well arranged Website/Tool for proposal and
voting.

http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=53748




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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Marc Gemis]

Taginfo is just reporting numbers. It can be hard to do a correct
interpretation of those numbers

- impact of an import / mechanical edit
- impact of presets in editors
- impact of a vocal member  in a local community that is followed by a
 group of local mappers
- impact of a crazy mapper (e.g. most landuse in Belgium in mapped by 1
person).
- local difference in interpretation (e.g. allotments are used differently
in Russia I believe -- see some SOTM presentation).
- how do you know what is meant by the mappers when you only see the
key-values: e.g. shop=salon (hairdresser ? seats (salon in french) ?)

I've also noticed that some communities do not participate in the votings
at all (or hardly): Where were the voters from e.g. Russia, Belgium, The
Netherlands, Japan or France in the suffix voting ? or the jewellery voting
?
OTOH I see a pretty large group of German voters. Also, the there is a
certain group of people returning in all votings.

I'm not blaming anyone for participating in the voting process all the
time, someone has to do the hard work of defining new tags. However, it
hardly representative for the community as a whole. If we want diversity
(often mentioned during OSMF elections), we have to change this.
How can we let more people with more different backgrounds participate in
the tagging definition process ? And do we want this ?

I have no idea.

regards

m

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Dominic Coletti 
wrote:

> I meant a more formal incorporation such as adjusting the votes required
> based on Taginfo data. That said, I fully support how we currently use it.
>
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 13:32 Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> > Am 24.02.2016 um 18:57 schrieb Dominic Coletti <
>> dcoletti.dc...@gmail.com>:
>> >
>> > Do you have an alternative? For example, incorporating Taginfo into the
>> process.
>>
>>
>> can you explain? I think taginfo is usually involved in the process, in
>> the sense that people look tags up in taginfo before voting.
>>
>> cheers
>> Martin
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>>
> --
>
> *C/CMSgt Dominic Coletti, CAP*
> Whiskey Flight Sergeant, Raleigh-Wake Composite Squadron
> (H) 919-463-9554
> U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
> GoCivilAirPatrol.com 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 24.02.2016 um 18:57 schrieb Dominic Coletti :
> 
> Do you have an alternative? For example, incorporating Taginfo into the 
> process.


can you explain? I think taginfo is usually involved in the process, in the 
sense that people look tags up in taginfo before voting. 

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Dominic Coletti]

I meant a more formal incorporation such as adjusting the votes required
based on Taginfo data. That said, I fully support how we currently use it.
On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 13:32 Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > Am 24.02.2016 um 18:57 schrieb Dominic Coletti  >:
> >
> > Do you have an alternative? For example, incorporating Taginfo into the
> process.
>
>
> can you explain? I think taginfo is usually involved in the process, in
> the sense that people look tags up in taginfo before voting.
>
> cheers
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Dominic Coletti]

Do you have an alternative? For example, incorporating Taginfo into the
process.
On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 12:39 Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> Am 23.02.2016 um 22:48 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :
>
> >>> Approval rate: 68.97%. Less than required 74% so provisional
> >>> rejection; proposer to make final call.
> >>
> >> The tricky bit of course is that those percentages are "of the people
> >> who voted".
> >
> > It is not surprising that only people who voted were voting.
>
>
> yes, but it's surprising that we have made changes to the tagging system
> via wiki so incredibly difficult. A minority of few more than a quarter of
> all contributors could block the rest (e.g. if all of them voted) in a
> decision. This is completely theoretical of course, but it illustrates that
> there's likely something wrong with the current way of counting votes in
> the wiki.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

Am 23.02.2016 um 22:48 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :

>>> Approval rate: 68.97%. Less than required 74% so provisional 
>>> rejection; proposer to make final call.
>> 
>> The tricky bit of course is that those percentages are "of the people 
>> who voted".
> 
> It is not surprising that only people who voted were voting.


yes, but it's surprising that we have made changes to the tagging system via 
wiki so incredibly difficult. A minority of few more than a quarter of all 
contributors could block the rest (e.g. if all of them voted) in a decision. 
This is completely theoretical of course, but it illustrates that there's 
likely something wrong with the current way of counting votes in the wiki.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 24일 11:26, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> "there's not much we can do about it" - this is simply untrue. Editors
> and map rendering have great power.

With power comes responsibility.

In my view the responsibility to make a map/rendering that distinguishes
itself from all the commercial maps out there that only care about
monetization. OSM is a map from humans for humans.



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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Warin]

On 24/02/2016 11:34 AM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
The reality is that most mappers don't pay any attention to this group 
or the "decisions" we make. It's all well and good to make careful 
deliberations about this tag or that one but in the end people will do 
what they want. They will continue to tag for the renderer, add tags 
that make no sense or aren't orthogonal to the main tag, add 
non-existent names to their favorite features (name="Dad's house") and 
there's not much we can do about it.


Sixty-two votes is actually a fair showing as these things go. It's 
only when you take into account that, according to Andy'e 
estimate, "around 1100 individual mappers last edited a jewellery 
shop" that it looks weak.


Anyway, now that the proposal has been "voted down" does that mean the 
tag description will change in the Wiki?


No. There have been no vote on 'shop=jewelry'!

That will not stop someone from changing its status to 'approved' 
despite there being no vote on 'shop=jewelry'.
If the same people were to vote with the same thoughts then over 60% 
would reject 'shop=jewelry'!!

I know I would reject it.

Would someone care to demonstrate?


On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:


On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 11:54:55 +
Andy Townsend > wrote:

> On 23/02/2016 10:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >
> > It was provisionally rejected with 40 votes for, 18 votes against
> > and 4 abstentions.
> > Approval rate: 68.97%. Less than required 74% so provisional
> > rejection; proposer to make final call.
>
> The tricky bit of course is that those percentages are "of the
people
> who voted".

It is not surprising that only people who voted were voting.

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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Dave Swarthout]

The reality is that most mappers don't pay any attention to this group or
the "decisions" we make. It's all well and good to make careful
deliberations about this tag or that one but in the end people will do what
they want. They will continue to tag for the renderer, add tags that make
no sense or aren't orthogonal to the main tag, add non-existent names to
their favorite features (name="Dad's house") and there's not much we can do
about it.

Sixty-two votes is actually a fair showing as these things go. It's only
when you take into account that, according to Andy'e estimate, "around 1100
individual mappers last edited a jewellery shop" that it looks weak.

Anyway, now that the proposal has been "voted down" does that mean the tag
description will change in the Wiki?

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 11:54:55 +
> Andy Townsend  wrote:
>
> > On 23/02/2016 10:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > >
> > > It was provisionally rejected with 40 votes for, 18 votes against
> > > and 4 abstentions.
> > > Approval rate: 68.97%. Less than required 74% so provisional
> > > rejection; proposer to make final call.
> >
> > The tricky bit of course is that those percentages are "of the people
> > who voted".
>
> It is not surprising that only people who voted were voting.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Hakuch]

On 23.02.2016 13:42, Andy Townsend wrote:
> As we've seen in at least one answer in this thread already, 
you can say my name if you want to :)

> they've
> never actually mapped one but do "care about tagging" (i.e. in this case
> they want to tell _other people_ how to tag things that they haven't
> mapped themselves).

do you think, I can't participate in voting or discussion about a
tagging scheme because I never tagged a jewelry shop? I dont think that
there would be a big enlightenment if I go out and try to find a jewelry
shop and tag it.

Yes of course, there might be discussion where it is much better to have
experiences with the objects themself. But this proposal was not about
the object but about general tagging questions.

so please please do not blame me like this, that I want to "tell people"
how they should map. And please, if you want to blame then just call me
by name.




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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Colin Smale]

Don't forget it doesn't really matter if the tag is jewelry or
jewellery. It's about having a uniform way of tagging. Who would vote
against that, I wonder? And if both values are currently considered
equivalent in OSM, changing existing data from one spelling to another
does not change the value of the data and should therefore not be
considered controversial. If a human changed the tag on one individual
shop from jewelry to jewellery or vice versa, would there be an outcry?
Would the change get reverted? No. 

Once that is established, we get the ecosystem partners (primarily
editors and consumers, starting with the editors) to follow the
standards we have agreed. In this case, both the alternatives are
already in use, so there should be no impact.

There's a saying in Dutch which, loosely translated, is "don't bother
mopping up with the tap still running". In other words, start by
stopping it getting worse before you get stuck into a losing battle
trying to tidy up the existing data. 

//colin 

On 2016-02-23 12:54, Andy Townsend wrote:

> On 23/02/2016 10:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 
> 
>> It was provisionally rejected with 40 votes for, 18 votes against and 4 
>> abstentions.
>> Approval rate: 68.97%. Less than required 74% so provisional rejection; 
>> proposer to make final call.
> 
> The tricky bit of course is that those percentages are "of the people who 
> voted".
> 
> Taginfo reckons objects with the key "shop" were last edited by 105 030 
> different users, and there are 1,976,690 shops, of which 20,851 are jewelry 
> and 215 jewellery, which suggests (finger in the air) around 1100 individual 
> mappers last edited a jewellery shop. Taking that as the base, the "approval 
> rate" of a little under 4%, based on a "voter turnout" or a little under 6%*.
> 
> It's pretty difficult to extrapolate any sort of "approval" or "rejection" 
> based on those numbers.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andy
> 
> * 6% is actually an overestimate of course - it's a guess at the "last 
> edited" rather than the "have ever edited" figure.  It'd be interesting to 
> know if anyone's got any stats on the latter (not necessarily for jewellery 
> shops) - presumably that'd need a full history planet (or an extract of one) 
> to do the analysis?
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Andy Townsend]

On 23/02/2016 12:32, markus schnalke wrote:

Aren't the ones who vote those who care for what the actual
tagging is?


As we've seen in at least one answer in this thread already, they've 
never actually mapped one but do "care about tagging" (i.e. in this case 
they want to tell _other people_ how to tag things that they haven't 
mapped themselves).



Because, if the others would care, why don't they
vote? ;-)


Maybe they're out mapping :)

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[markus schnalke]

[2016-02-23 11:54] Andy Townsend 
> >
> > It was provisionally rejected with 40 votes for, 18 votes against and 
> > 4 abstentions.
> > Approval rate: 68.97%. Less than required 74% so provisional 
> > rejection; proposer to make final call.
> 
> The tricky bit of course is that those percentages are "of the people 
> who voted".
> 
> Taginfo reckons objects with the key "shop" were last edited by 105 030 
> different users, and there are 1,976,690 shops, of which 20,851 are 
> jewelry and 215 jewellery, which suggests (finger in the air) around 
> 1100 individual mappers last edited a jewellery shop. Taking that as the 
> base, the "approval rate" of a little under 4%, based on a "voter 
> turnout" or a little under 6%*.

Numbers can help to see more clear, but they do not so necessarily.

Of those about 1100 mappers: How many cared for the tag names and
how many just clicked on a button to have it semantically tagged
as a jewel(le)ry shop (uninterested of what the exact tagging would
be)? How many implemented what the wiki says and how many want to
sharpen the information that is collected in the wiki?

Aren't the ones who vote those who care for what the actual
tagging is? Because, if the others would care, why don't they
vote? ;-)


meillo

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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Hakuch]

And how much of 1100 mappers would really be interested ine the spelling
of the word? Only beacause you map something, doesnt mean that you care
about the tagging, me for example never tagged a jewelry (or jewellery
:)) shop, but I did care about the proposal.

So, of course, its a pitty that only 60 people take part in a vote, but
its even more than in other votes..

Imho, we should ne a better voting platform than the wiki!

On 23.02.2016 12:54, Andy Townsend wrote:
> On 23/02/2016 10:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>> It was provisionally rejected with 40 votes for, 18 votes against and
>> 4 abstentions.
>> Approval rate: 68.97%. Less than required 74% so provisional
>> rejection; proposer to make final call.
> 
> The tricky bit of course is that those percentages are "of the people
> who voted".
> 
> Taginfo reckons objects with the key "shop" were last edited by 105 030
> different users, and there are 1,976,690 shops, of which 20,851 are
> jewelry and 215 jewellery, which suggests (finger in the air) around
> 1100 individual mappers last edited a jewellery shop. Taking that as the
> base, the "approval rate" of a little under 4%, based on a "voter
> turnout" or a little under 6%*.
> 
> It's pretty difficult to extrapolate any sort of "approval" or
> "rejection" based on those numbers.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andy
> 
> * 6% is actually an overestimate of course - it's a guess at the "last
> edited" rather than the "have ever edited" figure.  It'd be interesting
> to know if anyone's got any stats on the latter (not necessarily for
> jewellery shops) - presumably that'd need a full history planet (or an
> extract of one) to do the analysis?
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 23 February 2016 at 12:54, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> The tricky bit of course is that those percentages are "of the people who
> voted".
>
> Taginfo reckons objects with the key "shop" were last edited by 105 030
> different users, and there are 1,976,690 shops, of which 20,851 are jewelry
> and 215 jewellery, which suggests (finger in the air) around 1100 individual
> mappers last edited a jewellery shop. Taking that as the base, the "approval
> rate" of a little under 4%, based on a "voter turnout" or a little under
> 6%*.

That doesn't really make sense, people use the American spelling
because this is the tag suggested by editors or because it is the tag
supported by data consumers, not because they think it's necessarily
the best tag,

I'm quite sure that most people who voted for 'jewellery' use
'jewelry' when mapping.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Andy Townsend]

On 23/02/2016 10:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


It was provisionally rejected with 40 votes for, 18 votes against and 
4 abstentions.
Approval rate: 68.97%. Less than required 74% so provisional 
rejection; proposer to make final call.


The tricky bit of course is that those percentages are "of the people 
who voted".


Taginfo reckons objects with the key "shop" were last edited by 105 030 
different users, and there are 1,976,690 shops, of which 20,851 are 
jewelry and 215 jewellery, which suggests (finger in the air) around 
1100 individual mappers last edited a jewellery shop. Taking that as the 
base, the "approval rate" of a little under 4%, based on a "voter 
turnout" or a little under 6%*.


It's pretty difficult to extrapolate any sort of "approval" or 
"rejection" based on those numbers.


Cheers,

Andy

* 6% is actually an overestimate of course - it's a guess at the "last 
edited" rather than the "have ever edited" figure.  It'd be interesting 
to know if anyone's got any stats on the latter (not necessarily for 
jewellery shops) - presumably that'd need a full history planet (or an 
extract of one) to do the analysis?





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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 23 February 2016 at 11:33, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> I feel voting count is broken for some time. Has there been a formal
> proceduce to change the way we count the votes? How was this procedure
> introduced?
>
> Example, the current jeweller voting:
> Voting closed
> Voting on this proposal has been closed.
> It was provisionally rejected with 40 votes for, 18 votes against and 4
> abstentions.
> Approval rate: 68.97%. Less than required 74% so provisional rejection;
> proposer to make final call.

For my proposals, I follow the currently documented process with 74%
approval, and therefore consider the jewellery proposal rejected.

However, I think a discussion about a lower threshold, and in general
a formal approval of the voting guidelines by the community, would be
very useful.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Voting rules

[Hakuch]

ok I don't have a neutral opinion on this proposal, but I think
especially here, if you want to change 20.000 tagged objects, it should
be three quarters.


On 23.02.2016 11:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I feel voting count is broken for some time. Has there been a formal
> proceduce to change the way we count the votes? How was this procedure
> introduced?
> 
> Example, the current jeweller voting:
> Voting closed
> Voting on this proposal has been closed.
> It was provisionally rejected with 40 votes for, 18 votes against and 4
> abstentions.
> Approval rate: 68.97%. Less than required 74% so provisional rejection;
> proposer to make final call.
> 
> 
> Shall we really require three quarters approvement for a vote to pass? Even
> to change the constitution, in many countries you do not need more approval
> than two thirds.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
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0x3CBE432B.asc
Description: application/pgp-keys
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