Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Jan S]

Am 8. März 2019 19:02:08 MEZ schrieb Martin 
>
>what about other police facilities that are also tagged with
>amenity=police
>now, should they key the basic tag as well?

That wouldn't be useful, I guess. Maintaining amenity=police would already be a 
concession to existing mapping and rendering traditions in the case of 
public-facing police stations. But it shouldn't remain the general tag to mark 
all police facilities. Many police facilities simply don't coincide with the 
definition of amenity, which reads "For describing useful and important 
facilities for visitors and residents".

I'd still favour a clear-cut solution with a proper police scheme.

Best, Jan

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Mar 2019, at 01:31, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> & marked © www.berlinonline.net as well as OSM Contributors?
> 
> Can they impose their own copyright on an OSM map?


the data is copyright osm, the map rendering is their copyright. That’s the 
ODbL. You only have to share the data and can produce proprietary works from 
them.

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 at 09:47, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> it is literally a safe-keeping ground, but what it actually means is an
> area to store seized/confiscated objects (e.g. vehicles).
>

Ah, thanks, makes perfect sense now! - we know them as a holding-yard.

fun fact: there’s an official website and their map is OSM based:
> https://service.berlin.de/standort/121649/
>

& marked © www.berlinonline.net  as well as
OSM Contributors?

Can they impose their own copyright on an OSM map?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

>> & what's a "Sicherstellungsgelände der Polizei" ? 


fun fact: there’s an official website and their map is OSM based:
https://service.berlin.de/standort/121649/

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Mar 2019, at 00:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> & what's a "Sicherstellungsgelände der Polizei" ? All Google can come up with 
> is "freezing terrain", which I'm pretty sure isn't right! 


it is literally a safe-keeping ground, but what it actually means is an area to 
store seized/confiscated objects (e.g. vehicles).

Ciao, Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 at 04:03, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> E.g. (I guess these aren't police stations,
>

Yeah, places like this one :-) https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/380771
(Or is it?)


> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/23462697
>

& what's a "Sicherstellungsgelände der Polizei" ? All Google can come up
with is "freezing terrain", which I'm pretty sure isn't right!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 7. März 2019 um 01:27 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>:

> > maintain amenity=police for public-facing police station
>
> +1 for keeping the basic tag for police stations
>


what about other police facilities that are also tagged with amenity=police
now, should they key the basic tag as well?
E.g. (I guess these aren't police stations, but I do not know them)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/33258
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/23462697

We have already acquired experience with similar cases, e.g.
tourism=information was first only used for information offices.
Today they are only 3,5% of all objects with an "information" tag (and 95%
of all information=* tags are combined with tourism=* , like
tourism=information).
As a result tourism=information has become meaningless, you will look at
the information tag to see what it is about.

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> maintain amenity=police for public-facing police station

+1 for keeping the basic tag for police stations
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Jan S]

Am 6. März 2019 19:37:13 MEZ schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer 
:
>I would be more in favor of using more explicit tags, like
>amenity=police_station because this implies more obviously that it is a
>public facing facility.

Or, to keep it simple, maintain amenity=police for public-facing police 
stations and office=government and government=police for all non public-facing 
facilities. Although such a scheme would probably fall short again, given the 
many different types of police facilities...

Or - I'm just brainstorming - amenity=police for public-facing stations and a 
police scheme for all other facilities?

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I would be more in favor of using more explicit tags, like
amenity=police_station because this implies more obviously that it is a
public facing facility.

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Jan S]

Am 6. März 2019 13:56:43 MEZ schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer 
:

>
>IMHO we need to distinguish different kind of facilities (e.g. a police
>station from police barracks) and different kind of police types at the
>facility (e.g. coast guards, customs, federal police, military police,
>etc.
>plus subtypes as required.)
>
>Regarding the facility type, the tag "amenity=police" is choosen poorly
>because it may be interpreted as any kind of police facility, or it may
>be
>seen as "for police stations only". (Btw. there are also different kind
>of
>police stations based on size/rank and opening hours, at least in
>Germany,
>e.g. "Polizeiwache", "Polizeipräsidium" / Direktion,
>"Kriminalkommisariat",
>"Polizeiposten", "Polizeirevier", etc., some of which also imply
>certain
>operator types (Kriminal...))
>The details may vary in Germany according to the Bundesland.
>
>I am not only interested in the German situation, but would like to
>collect
>more tagging requirements  from other realities as well, so that it can
>become a global scheme, although I would recommend to tag the specific
>name
>in the local language (see above) as well (not necessarily in name,
>might
>eventually be a candidate for official name).

I propose that we proceed on two levels. On the one hand we should define a 
general "police" scheme that's sufficiently general to cover police facilities 
worldwide. That could be the "police" tag I've proposed, and a list of keys for 
typical facilities. This scheme should provide a tag for points of first 
contact, typically with 24/7 service (i.e. the prototype of a local police 
station). Other police stations that don't fulfil this role could be grouped as 
e.g. "police=office" or "police=administration" and then be differentiated by 
the name tag. Otherwise we could represent the level of hierarchy of the 
respective offices with something like a "police:admin=1-5" scheme, but I 
wouldn't see the use of doing so.

The other question that remains unresolved (and IMO can only be resolved in 
every state or region autonomously) is the definition of what is to be 
considered police. But independently of the respective local definition, the 
corresponding sites should be able to be mapped under a new police-scheme.

Best,
Jan

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 6. März 2019 um 09:55 Uhr schrieb Jan S :

> Am 6. März 2019 01:57:21 MEZ schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com>:
> >if you think about it, there are more police forces in Germany,
> >particularly if we find more specific tagging for specific categories
> >of forces (e.g. Bereitschaftspolizei, Autobahnpolizei,
> >Wasserschutzpolizei, LKA, BKA) and others that might eventually be
> >considered police like Zoll, Steuerfahndung, Justizvollzugsbeamte,
> >Küstenwache, Forstamt (forrester), Ordnungsamt,
> >Wirtschaftskontrolldienst, Feldjäger, ...
>
> IMO you're mentioning two types of forces. All those that carry the notion
> "Polizei" as part of their name are police forces.



yes, no doubt about this ;-)



> They are either part of the state or the federal police (except the BKA,
> which is a separate entity).



actually there is no "Polizei" in "Bundeskriminalamt", nor is it in
"Landeskriminalamt", but I guess we agree these are both police forces?
This demonstrates that "Polizei" as part of the name is not a requirement.



> I think hence that a subdivision as to whether a unit belongs to the state
> or the federal police is sufficient in Germany.



I would be interested to go into more detail. Currently, AFAIK there is not
even a way to distinguish between federal and "Länder" police?



> Also, different units of the same police force may share facilities.
>


yes



>
> All other forces or entities are part of the administration.



I do not understand this sentence, aren't police forces in general part of
the administration?




> The main difference is that the police may intervene in any issue of any
> other entity, as long as that other entity is not available or not able to
> cope with the situation. E.g. the police intervene in prison riots if the
> prison staff cannot deal with the situation. Or, if you're partying hard
> during the day, it'll be the Ordnungsamt knocking on your door, while at
> night it'll be the police (who may also knock during the day, if the
> Ordnungsamt for some reason can't).
>
> This, however, will have to be defined according to the domestic situation
> in every state.
>


yes, the compentences aren't necessarily unique, if you pour oil on the
beach you might get into problems with any kind of police, including the
local police and coast guards (Küstenwache), and probably Ordnungsamt as
well.

IMHO we need to distinguish different kind of facilities (e.g. a police
station from police barracks) and different kind of police types at the
facility (e.g. coast guards, customs, federal police, military police, etc.
plus subtypes as required.)

Regarding the facility type, the tag "amenity=police" is choosen poorly
because it may be interpreted as any kind of police facility, or it may be
seen as "for police stations only". (Btw. there are also different kind of
police stations based on size/rank and opening hours, at least in Germany,
e.g. "Polizeiwache", "Polizeipräsidium" / Direktion, "Kriminalkommisariat",
"Polizeiposten", "Polizeirevier", etc., some of which also imply certain
operator types (Kriminal...))
The details may vary in Germany according to the Bundesland.

I am not only interested in the German situation, but would like to collect
more tagging requirements  from other realities as well, so that it can
become a global scheme, although I would recommend to tag the specific name
in the local language (see above) as well (not necessarily in name, might
eventually be a candidate for official name).


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Jan S]

Am 6. März 2019 01:57:21 MEZ schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer 
:
>
>
>sent from a phone
>
>> On 5. Mar 2019, at 12:17, Jan S  wrote:
>> 
>> Any thoughts on this?
>
>
>if you think about it, there are more police forces in Germany,
>particularly if we find more specific tagging for specific categories
>of forces (e.g. Bereitschaftspolizei, Autobahnpolizei,
>Wasserschutzpolizei, LKA, BKA) and others that might eventually be
>considered police like Zoll, Steuerfahndung, Justizvollzugsbeamte,
>Küstenwache, Forstamt (forrester), Ordnungsamt,
>Wirtschaftskontrolldienst, Feldjäger, ...

IMO you're mentioning two types of forces. All those that carry the notion 
"Polizei" as part of their name are police forces. They are either part of the 
state or the federal police (except the BKA, which is a separate entity). I 
think hence that a subdivision as to whether a unit belongs to the state or the 
federal police is sufficient in Germany. Also, different units of the same 
police force may share facilities.

All other forces or entities are part of the administration. The main 
difference is that the police may intervene in any issue of any other entity, 
as long as that other entity is not available or not able to cope with the 
situation. E.g. the police intervene in prison riots if the prison staff cannot 
deal with the situation. Or, if you're partying hard during the day, it'll be 
the Ordnungsamt knocking on your door, while at night it'll be the police (who 
may also knock during the day, if the Ordnungsamt for some reason can't).

This, however, will have to be defined according to the domestic situation in 
every state.

Best, Jan

>Belonging to “military” does not necessarily exclude a body from being
>a police force, neither in osm, or does it?
>
>Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Jan S]

Am 6. März 2019 00:35:44 MEZ schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick :
>On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 at 22:01, Jan S  wrote:
>
>
>How about emergency=police?
>
I had thought about that, too. But my impression is that the emergency tag is 
more restricted to facilities that help you in ongoing situations of distress 
and are on the spot. I assume it's rather unusual to go to the police in an 
emergency, but you'd rather call them.

The police station itself may be for less urgent situations mainly. So also for 
that reason, the emergency tag may be inaccurate.

Best, Jan

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 5. Mar 2019, at 12:17, Jan S  wrote:
> 
> Any thoughts on this?


if you think about it, there are more police forces in Germany, particularly if 
we find more specific tagging for specific categories of forces (e.g. 
Bereitschaftspolizei, Autobahnpolizei, Wasserschutzpolizei, LKA, BKA) and 
others that might eventually be considered police like Zoll, Steuerfahndung, 
Justizvollzugsbeamte, Küstenwache, Forstamt (forrester), Ordnungsamt, 
Wirtschaftskontrolldienst, Feldjäger, ...

Belonging to “military” does not necessarily exclude a body from being a police 
force, neither in osm, or does it?

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 at 22:01, Jan S  wrote:

> As amenity=police is currently being used indiscriminately for almost all
> police-related facilities, we would have to review all police buildings
> manually anyways to differentiate police stations and other units. In the
> long run, I would therefore get rid of amenity=police altogether (and thus
> decongestionate the "amenity"-tag a bit).
>

How about emergency=police?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 5, 2019, 12:59 PM by grimpeu...@gmail.com:

> I imagined that all public-facing police stations be tagged as:
>
> police=station
> operator=(Bundespolizei/Straż Miejska etc.)
> opening_hours=*
> ...
>
> Police barracks would then be
>
> police=barracks
> operator=*
> ...
> And an administrative building could be
>
> police=administration
> operator=*
> opening_hours=*
> ...
>
>
> As amenity=police is currently being used indiscriminately for almost all 
> police-related facilities, we would have to review all police buildings 
> manually anyways to differentiate police stations and other units. In the 
> long run, I would therefore get rid of amenity=police altogether (and thus 
> decongestionate the "amenity"-tag a bit).
>
That works quite well! Some comments:

For administrative building I would really use office tag.

I see no value in dropping amenity=police, even in far future.
I see no harm whatsoever in supposed "congestion" and breaking all data 
consumers
using amenity=police would not be nice.

I am not sure about using operator for police type, in some cases it may cause 
conflicts with
normal use of operator tag.

Maybe police:type?

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Jan S]

Am Di., 5. März 2019 um 12:46 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

>
>
>
> Mar 5, 2019, 12:17 PM by grimpeu...@gmail.com:
>
> I would hence suggest to introduce a new tag "police" with keys like
> "station", "administration", "criminal police", "barracks", "range",
> "naval_base" (for river police or coast guard), etc. The type of police
> could then be tagged as "operator=*"
>
> "police=station" should be defined as comprising all police stations of
> the lowest level, where you can turn to in case of an emergency, no matter
> whether the operating entity is formally a civil or a military one. Other
> areas or buildings, like barracks, ranges, administrative units etc. could
> then be tagged as "police=*" or "military=*", according to the
> classification of the operating force.
>
> Any thoughts on this?
>
> I would tag office with internal police administration with some office=*
> tag, without amenity=police
>
> We should not tag Tesco headquarters as shop, we should not tag government
> office
> maintaining canals as waterway=canal and we should not tag government
> office
> managing police as amenity=police
>
> Similarly, police laboratory, range, barracks, academy, warehouse should
> also should not be
> tagged amenity=police.
>
> But police tag makes sense, just do not require or request to always add
> also amenity=police.
>
> I would keep amenity=police to public-facing police places.
>
> To values of police tag - there is also municipal police (in Poland called
> "Straż Miejska"
> that is usually mostly handling illegally parked vehicles and minor
> disturbances like
> drunk people).
>
> So also police=municipal?
>
> BTW, I would not mix police type (municipal, state, military, etc) with
> object type (naval_base,
> administration, barracks, range) in one key.
>
> Thanks for commenting!

Maybe my post was confusing.

I imagined that all public-facing police stations be tagged as:

police=station
operator=(Bundespolizei/Straż Miejska etc.)
opening_hours=*
...

Police barracks would then be

police=barracks
operator=*
...
And an administrative building could be

police=administration
operator=*
opening_hours=*
...

As amenity=police is currently being used indiscriminately for almost all
police-related facilities, we would have to review all police buildings
manually anyways to differentiate police stations and other units. In the
long run, I would therefore get rid of amenity=police altogether (and thus
decongestionate the "amenity"-tag a bit).

Best,
Jan
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 5, 2019, 12:17 PM by grimpeu...@gmail.com:

> I would hence suggest to introduce a new tag "police" with keys like 
> "station", "administration", "criminal police", "barracks", "range", 
> "naval_base" (for river police or coast guard), etc. The type of police could 
> then be tagged as "operator=*"
>
> "police=station" should be defined as comprising all police stations of the 
> lowest level, where you can turn to in case of an emergency, no matter 
> whether the operating entity is formally a civil or a military one. Other 
> areas or buildings, like barracks, ranges, administrative units etc. could 
> then be tagged as "police=*" or "military=*", according to the classification 
> of the operating force.
>
> Any thoughts on this?
>
I would tag office with internal police administration with some office=* tag, 
without amenity=police

We should not tag Tesco headquarters as shop, we should not tag government 
office 
maintaining canals as waterway=canal and we should not tag government office 
managing police as amenity=police

Similarly, police laboratory, range, barracks, academy, warehouse should also 
should not be 
tagged amenity=police.

But police tag makes sense, just do not require or request to always add also 
amenity=police.

I would keep amenity=police to public-facing police places.

To values of police tag - there is also municipal police (in Poland called 
"Straż Miejska"
that is usually mostly handling illegally parked vehicles and minor 
disturbances like 
drunk people).

So also police=municipal?

BTW, I would not mix police type (municipal, state, military, etc) with object 
type (naval_base, 
administration, barracks, range) in one key.
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Jan S]

Am Fr., 1. März 2019 um 18:55 Uhr schrieb Greg Troxel :

> Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:
>
> > I wonder what we call "police" in OSM.
> >
> > The wiki does not offer a lot of guidance (France aside): "A police
> station
> > is a building where police officers and other staff work and are
> dispatched
> > from, and where suspects and evidence are collected and processed."
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpolice
> >
> > Is this limited to civil police forces, or does it include military
> forces?
> > The French seem to include the Gendarmerie (military force under the
> > jurisdiction of the Ministry of the Interior), and similarly we include
> the
> > Carabinieri in Italy (adding also landuse=military).
>

I have looked at some police facilites in my area and must admit that I am
now even more confused about how to map them.

Here in Germany, there are two main police forces, the 16 state polices and
the federal police. Also, in some cities there is a municipal police, which
are usually uniformed members of the city administration who are not
allowed to recur to the use of force. Still, they do some minor policing
tasks. There's also a military police, but afaik their competences are
restricted to issues within the military forces.

Here in Frankfurt for example, the municipal police station is tagged as
"amenity=police" and "operator=Stadtpolizei" (
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/440792258), which to me is fine. State
and federal police stations are also tagged as "amenity=police" albeit
without the "operator" tag (e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/440792258
for a federal police station and
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/401296942 for a state police station).
That's also fine, I guess, although the "operator" tag might be helpful.

However, other facilities of the state police, like barracks for special
units, are also tagged as "amenity=police" (
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/55342341), although they don't attend the
public at all. And even stranger, barracks of the federal police are tagged
as "military=barracks" (https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/4537958),
although since the Federal Border Protection Service (Bundesgrenzschutz)
has been transformed into the federal police in the 1990s, it has lost its
combatant status under international law and today clearly is a civil
police force.

In France, I've checked only one Gendarmerie site, where the area has been
tagged as "landuse=military" but the Gendarmerie station on the area, where
the public is attended, has been tagged as "amenity=police" (
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/47840959). However, the barracks of the
Compagnie Républicaine de Sécurité at Strabourg are also mapped as
"amenity=police", although there doesn't seem to be a post to attend the
public, either.

The combination of "office=government" and "government=police" is hardly
used at all in Germany and France (which is not surprising at all, given
that taginfo only returns 75 instances at all).

In consequence, I don't see that the current way of tagging police
facilities was useful for several reasons:

1) Police facilities are tagged as "amenity=police", indiscriminately of
whether one can go there in an emergency or not. Even purely administrative
units which don't attend the public at all receive the same tag as common
police stations.

2) The police has a variety of facilites, similar to the military forces,
that cannot be currently differentiated.

3) There is a confusion about what to tag as "police" and what to tag as
"military".

I would hence suggest to introduce a new tag "police" with keys like
"station", "administration", "criminal police", "barracks", "range",
"naval_base" (for river police or coast guard), etc. The type of police
could then be tagged as "operator=*"

"police=station" should be defined as comprising all police stations of the
lowest level, where you can turn to in case of an emergency, no matter
whether the operating entity is formally a civil or a military one. Other
areas or buildings, like barracks, ranges, administrative units etc. could
then be tagged as "police=*" or "military=*", according to the
classification of the operating force.

Any thoughts on this?

Best,
Jan
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Greg Troxel]

Sergio Manzi  writes:

> The typical roles of the Coast Guard (/or whatever is called in
> different countries/) is maritime borders control and maritime law
> enforcement.

This is why it's hard.   Border control is sort of military and law
enforcement is mostly police.

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Greg Troxel]

Graeme Fitzpatrick  writes:

>> The Border Patrol and other immigration people I would
>> sort into police.  They arrest people, rather than treating them as
>> prisoners of war (Geneva convention again).
>
> So would a Border Patrol / Customs office be tagged as a Police station?

That's a hard call.  First, Border Patrol feels more like police, and
Customs, not military, and not really police, similar to how the
Inspector of Weights and Measures that checks the meters on the gas
pumps isn't police.

> I certainly expect some other countries to be harder.

Agreed.

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Sergio Manzi]

On 2019-03-02 00:09, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> However, In Australia (& I know there are other countries the same) the Coast 
> Guard is a strictly civilian, volunteer marine rescue group only, with no 
> military, or police, connections at all (apart from working together with 
> Water Police on searches / rescues etc).


I think you're talking about something different from the "true", de facto, 
Australian "Coast Guard", which is "Maritime Border Command": 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_Border_Command_(Australia)

Maybe you're referring  to community S organizations like "Marine Rescue 
NSW", "Australian Volunteer Coast Guard" or "Royal Volunteer Coastal Patrol".

The typical roles of the Coast Guard (/or whatever is called in different 
countries/) is maritime borders control and maritime law enforcement.

Sergio



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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 at 21:44, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> I wonder what we call "police" in OSM.
>
> The wiki does not offer a lot of guidance (France aside): "A police
> station is a building where police officers and other staff work and are
> dispatched from, and where suspects and evidence are collected and
> processed."
>

Which seems to relate to the "Emergency" clean-up
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Emergency_Cleanup. I know I
mentioned it once before, but maybe we should start a discussion on it &
try to get things moving?

On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 at 03:55, Greg Troxel  wrote:

>
> > What about coast guards?
>
> In the US, I view the Coast Guard as a cross between a rescue service
> and a military service.
>

However, In Australia (& I know there are other countries the same) the
Coast Guard is a strictly civilian, volunteer marine rescue group only,
with no military, or police, connections at all (apart from working
together with Water Police on searches / rescues etc).


> > Typically there will be many kind of "police", according to what you
> count
> > in, and this might eventually differ between countries.
>
> Totally agreed.
>

Quite definitely


> I think each country needs to sort the various entities into military vs
> police, along some notion of "defending the country from outsiders" vs
> "domestic law enforcement" and clues about adminstration and reporting.
> That consensus should be documented on each country's wiki page.
>

Agreed, but on that subject, it would be good if something could be set
that detects where you are logging in from, so if you're international eg
in the USA & are making changes in Australia, a warning box comes up to ask
"Have you checked the Australian Tagging Guidelines?" or words to that
effect, which would (may) help stop well-intentioned people making changes
that aren't actually correct eg changing Coast Guard from rescue group to
military or vice versa.

In the US, prison guards are "corrections officers" and not police, as I
> understand it.


Correct, but I don't think you'd ever tag a Corrections Service office,
because that will only be found in an actual jail, which is already tagged
that way.


> The Border Patrol and other immigration people I would
> sort into police.  They arrest people, rather than treating them as
> prisoners of war (Geneva convention again).
>

So would a Border Patrol / Customs office be tagged as a Police station?

I certainly expect some other countries to be harder.
>

Yep!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Greg Troxel]

Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:

> I wonder what we call "police" in OSM.
>
> The wiki does not offer a lot of guidance (France aside): "A police station
> is a building where police officers and other staff work and are dispatched
> from, and where suspects and evidence are collected and processed."
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpolice
>
> Is this limited to civil police forces, or does it include military forces?
> The French seem to include the Gendarmerie (military force under the
> jurisdiction of the Ministry of the Interior), and similarly we include the
> Carabinieri in Italy (adding also landuse=military).

I think the issue is that the line between police and military is
basically fuzzy.

In the US, we have a rule that says the military cannot be used for
domestic law enforcement.  This is at least mostly true, but then there
are edge cases where the National Guard (military) is mobilized during
emergencies.  Of course it's overwhelmingly likely that the rule isn't
100% followed; I once met two guys with green unlabeled jumpsuits and a
very fancy helicopter with an unreadable tail number at a rural airport
-- they said they were "testing" it, and I'm skeptical.  But most people
who see a few soliders walking or on the Metro view them much like
somebody else with a job going about their business, not like police.

> What about coast guards?

In the US, I view the Coast Guard as a cross between a rescue service
and a military service.  While they have a counter-drug mission, that
only seems to come up with regard to vessels entering US waters from
outside, as opposed to people staying in the US.  And, the Coast Guard,
although part of the Department of Homeland Security rather than
Defense, is widely viewed as more military than police.  They have the
same retirement rules as the Army, and USCG people are in TriCare health
insurance, set up for Army/Navy/Air Force.

> Typically there will be many kind of "police", according to what you count
> in, and this might eventually differ between countries.

Totally agreed.

Another big deal between military vs police is rules of engagement in
terms of use of force.  And, adherence to the Geneva convention, which
prohibts hollowpoint ammunition.  Basically in the US all police have
expanding ammunition, while the military uses fully jacketed.

I think each country needs to sort the various entities into military vs
police, along some notion of "defending the country from outsiders" vs
"domestic law enforcement" and clues about adminstration and reporting.
That consensus should be documented on each country's wiki page.

> E.g. in Italy there are (list is probably not complete):
> polizia postale, forestale, carabinieri, guardia costiera, polizia locale,
> provinciale, municipale, di stato, guardia di finanza, carabinieri,
> penitenziaria, ...
>
> For example it may be a question (and it might also differ, depending on
> the competences and duties they have in the country, whom they are
> subordinate, etc.) whether we count customs service as police, or prison
> officers, coast guards, maybe "intelligence services" in some occasions,
> foresters, etc.

Agreed that this is messy.

In the US, prison guards are "corrections officers" and not police, as I
understand it.  The Border Patrol and other immigration people I would
sort into police.  They arrest people, rather than treating them as
prisoners of war (Geneva convention again).

Broadly, local police are under a chain of command that goes to the
local government, state police to the governor, and federal police to a
cabinet official other than Secretary of Defense (or USCG/DHS).

But here, there's a pretty wide gulf in what happens and uniforms, if
you leave out some of the things that are intentionally invisible, and
perhaps the Border Patrol.  So I'd expect the "is this particular group
police or military" to be almost entirely uncontroversial here.  I
certainly expect some other countries to be harder.


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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Alex Rollin]

office=government ?

i was just looking at something similar with immigration offices, oft
frequented by travelers.  embassies, yes.  in-country immigration offices,
no.
--
Alex


On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:

 To move this forward I've put this in proposal draft form:

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dranger_station
 While the amenity amenity tag is overloaded, it seems more practical to
 put ranger stations
 next to fire and police stations, at least for now.

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Alex Rollin alex.rol...@gmail.com wrote:

 office=government ?
 i was just looking at something similar with immigration offices, oft
 frequented by travelers.  embassies, yes.  in-country immigration offices,
 no.


That's broader, and works for some ranger stations.

But private natural area landowners also have ranger stations, which can
be understood as the go-to place
for permits, police issues, maintenance issues, maps, guidance, etc.
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Il giorno 07/ago/2013, alle ore 08:17, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com ha 
scritto:

 office=government ?
 i was just looking at something similar with immigration offices, oft 
 frequented by travelers.  embassies, yes.  in-country immigration offices, 
 no.
 
 That's broader, and works for some ranger stations.

it is far too broad IMHO, if we tagged everything on that level of detail we 
had just a total of 15 tags and it would be hard to make any practical sense 
out of the data...

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Bryce Nesbitt]

To move this forward I've put this in proposal draft form:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dranger_station
While the amenity amenity tag is overloaded, it seems more practical to put
ranger stations
next to fire and police stations, at least for now.
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Clifford Snow]

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:

 We were just discussing the amenity tag in #osm. If we are inventing a new
 tag, can we avoid using amenity? Whatever a ranger station is, it is not an
 amenity and I would like to stop the spread of this woefully overloaded
 tag. It may *have* some amenities like toilets, drinking fountains or guide
 maps but it is not itself an amenity.


Toby,
I agree that amenity is probably overused. However, looking at the similar
usage of the amenity tag, ranger_station would be the likely candidate to
fall under amenity. Under amenity there is, police, townhall, fire_station,
courthouse, public_building, public_facility, village_hall, etc.

Do you recommendation of a better tag? Personally I like the thought of
leisure=park park=ranger_station. But that doesn't fit the current schema.

-- 
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Dominik George]

Hi,

the question is: Is there duty one oft law enforcement? If so, the tag is 
correct IMHO.

-nik



Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com schrieb:
At:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/US_National_Park_Service_Tagging
We have ranger stations listed under amenity=police.

Rangers are indeed a type of police, but one that often also
counts squirrels or displays rocks.
Should ranger stations get their own tag?




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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Mike Thompson]

While there may be personnel at a ranger station that have law enforcement
authority, that will not always be the case, and in any event, law
enforcement is probably not the primary function of most ranger stations.
If every facility where law enforcement personnel were stationed were
tagged amenity=police then many fire departments (at least in the US)
would have to be tagged that way, as they have personnel with law
enforcement authority (to investigate arson and code violations).

Mike


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:24 AM, Dominik George n...@naturalnet.de wrote:

 Hi,

 the question is: Is there duty one oft law enforcement? If so, the tag is
 correct IMHO.

 -nik



 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com schrieb:

 At:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/US_National_Park_Service_Tagging
 We have ranger stations listed under amenity=police.

 Rangers are indeed a type of police, but one that often also
 counts squirrels or displays rocks.
 Should ranger stations get their own tag?

 --

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 6:20 AM, Mike Thompson miketh...@gmail.com wrote:

 While there may be personnel at a ranger station that have law enforcement
 authority, that will not always be the case, and in any event, law
 enforcement is probably not the primary function of most ranger stations.
 If every facility where law enforcement personnel were stationed were
 tagged amenity=police then many fire departments (at least in the US)
 would have to be tagged that way, as they have personnel with law
 enforcement authority (to investigate arson and code violations).


Agreed.
And aote the USA the jobs of law enforcement ranger and interpretive ranger
have split, though both may work out of the same building.
Ranger stations have overlap with fire stations and police stations, but
seem quite distinct.
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Clifford Snow]

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.comwrote:

 And aote the USA the jobs of law enforcement ranger and interpretive
 ranger have split, though both may work out of the same building.
 Ranger stations have overlap with fire stations and police stations, but
 seem quite distinct.


Is it time we had a specific tag for ranger station such as
amenity=ranger_station? In the US, it would apply to both the NPS as well
as some state parks.


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Paul Johnson]

That might not quite work...NFS ranger stations are, for all practical
purposes, police stations and tourism information facilities.  In BLM
areas, they're almost exclusively police stations.  In some states and most
counties, they're purely tourism information.


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.uswrote:


 On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.comwrote:

 And aote the USA the jobs of law enforcement ranger and interpretive
 ranger have split, though both may work out of the same building.
 Ranger stations have overlap with fire stations and police stations, but
 seem quite distinct.


 Is it time we had a specific tag for ranger station such as
 amenity=ranger_station? In the US, it would apply to both the NPS as well
 as some state parks.


 --
 Clifford

 OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=police

[Toby Murray]

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.uswrote:


 On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.comwrote:

 And aote the USA the jobs of law enforcement ranger and interpretive
 ranger have split, though both may work out of the same building.
 Ranger stations have overlap with fire stations and police stations, but
 seem quite distinct.


 Is it time we had a specific tag for ranger station such as
 amenity=ranger_station? In the US, it would apply to both the NPS as well
 as some state parks.


We were just discussing the amenity tag in #osm. If we are inventing a new
tag, can we avoid using amenity? Whatever a ranger station is, it is not an
amenity and I would like to stop the spread of this woefully overloaded
tag. It may *have* some amenities like toilets, drinking fountains or guide
maps but it is not itself an amenity.

Toby
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