Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-19 16:06 GMT+02:00 Bryan Housel :

> > This is not the first time, and you have stated more than once your idea
> of tag creation and endorsement is top down, with the software maintainer
> deciding the tags on the input side, sweeping away the confusing plurality
> of comunity created tags.
>
> That’s not really what I think - are you sure I said that?
>


this is what I understood from the messages you recently sent here, e.g.:
"We have too many tags for different kinds of lifeguards.  This is too
confusing. I don’t want to have to show all these choices to iD users. ...
Let’s just use one tag *`emergency=lifeguard`*" (note that this tag has 6 /
six uses and its use is conflicting with documented and more established
tags because of overlap and using the same key) .

You also wrote: "It kind of makes one question whether a community edited
wiki is a good way to standardize a tagging scheme intended to produce a
coherant mapping dataset.  Bold suggestion: maybe the people who write the
tools should just get together over beers and decide what all the tags
should be.  I’ll buy!"




>
> I think the community should continue to invent tags, but if the tags that
> aren’t very good (as decided by people who work on software), I think we
> should have a process for replacing them.  You're right that this has been
> going on for a while, but starting now I’m trying to involve the community
> more rather than just changing things in the editor.
>


I appreciate you recognize there should be a process, but I wouldn't call
your current way of interacting with the community an involvement in the
decision making. You make the decisions and then communicate here what it
is and ask to "please update the wiki".



>
> > There is no reason you shouldn't properly document the changes in
> tagging recommendation in the wiki via a proposal like all other mappers
> and developers do.
>
> Proposals don’t work - see `transit:lanes`.. see the long thread about
> `landcover vs landuse`.  etc. etc.
> This is the main reason I’ve decided to step up and take the lead on these
> things.
> The old process wasn’t working.
>


At least  the old process lead us until here, I agree with Frederik that
"taking the lead on tagging" is clearly overstepping your mandate, in the
most sensitive and essential field.

iD is not an editor like the rest, it is the "official" / default editor of
the OSMF, it is the main, OSMF endorsed editor. The scope of the OSMF is
(beside others) [1]:
- Supports a diverse community
- Affirms tagging conventions, mediates tagging conflicts
- Does not decide what to map or how to map

The operation of the OSMF editor should not be in conflict with the OSMF
mission.




>
> ... (and no, debating tags on a mailing list is not meaningful work).
>



can you please clarify, do you mean debating tags is never meaningful work,
or whether it is not meaningful to debate them on a mailing list?



>
> I’m happy to do the work on the editor side, but we need people to work on
> actual tag migrations (either manually or via automated scripts), and we
> need a dedicated corps of volunteers who care about making the wiki simple
> and accurate.



I am sure almost all wiki editors care a lot about making the wiki simple
and accurate. One reason for the existing complexity is, that we are
mapping the whole world. What might be logical, implicit, necessary or
unnecessary from a certain point of view / context will not necessarily be
so also in other parts of the world. Nobody can see the whole picture,
therefor it is important that the tagging development is done by a diverse
community, and not just by one or a few software developers.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Mateusz Konieczny]

20. Jun 2018 01:30 by graemefi...@gmail.com :


> Is there a blank page template to copy - had a look but couldn't find one?




https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:ValueDescription#Usage 
 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 19 June 2018 at 23:41, Tod Fitch  wrote:

>
> FWIW, I volunteer on a back country ski patrol (winter rescue) and while
> we have a building we use as our base of operations the areas we patrol are
> very dependent on snow pack and where we notice people going to. Your
> concept of lifeguard=area could possibly be applied to our situation. That
> said, mapping an exact boundary of the area served would be very
> problematic: Unlike a developed ski area there are no signs indicating you
> are leaving the the official boundaries. It is, after all, undeveloped
> “back country”.
>
> The boundary issue may also apply to lifeguards on the beach: Both to the
> north and south of the beaches in the town I live in there is no clear
> demarcation of where the area served ends (no signs, etc.). Having a few
> years of observation and having talked to some of the year round
> lifeguards, I have a general feel for the areas but not exact enough to map.
>
> And it may well be seasonal: Most of the lifeguards work only in summer as
> that is when the crowds are largest and the city (local beach by me) and
> the state (beaches to the north and south of the city) save money by having
> a greatly reduced staff and thus coverage in the off season.
>

That's the problem I have with only trying to map an area, or undefined
place - just don't think it will work?

> Southern California. Two things probably contribute to the local practice:
> Lack of crowds during winter and winter storms typically do the most damage
> to beach side facilities. I am not even sure that other beach towns near by
> follow the same practice, only that the town I live in does.
>
>
So the photos on
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_tower &
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_platform
would be your sort of mobile towers?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Sorry, everyone, but getting back to discussions re the proposed tag!

On 19 June 2018 at 19:11, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> First step: Cheat as much as you can!!!
> Find a wiki page you like and use that as your template.
>
> Then look around for other wiki pages .. if you likle some bit of it ..
> steel that too.
>
> Combine them all together and see how it looks.
>
> Then do the content.
> Here is one I have hacked at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce
>
> You can use photos from wikipedia. Some times they are very good. If you
> can find one that does the whole description thing you are on a winner.
>

Is there a blank page template to copy - had a look but couldn't find one?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Warin]

On 20/06/18 03:10, Christoph Hormann wrote:


On Tuesday 19 June 2018, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Perhaps it would make sense to treat the iD editor and the tagging
presets it uses as two different projects that are conceptually
separate enough so that the tagging presets as rolled out on osm.org
can be curated by a group that is separate from the editor writers?

The question in that case would of course be how the group of people
supervising this list is selected and what the guiding principles of
this project are.

But the general direction of your idea seems right - breaking up the
direct connection between editors and presets, maintaining presets in a
form that is interoperable between editors and offering a choice which
presets to use to editor users and - in case of iD - editor
deployments.  In such a situation you would not need to worry about who
controls an individual collection of tagging presets any more since
there would probably be sufficient diversity for this to be self
regulating.



Perhaps there needs to be options of which preset collection you want.
You could prefer the presets made by group 1 .. or group 6.
Each preset group can be made by separate people or collections of people.
You might even be able to select the present group on the fly.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Christoph Hormann]

On Tuesday 19 June 2018, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> Perhaps it would make sense to treat the iD editor and the tagging
> presets it uses as two different projects that are conceptually
> separate enough so that the tagging presets as rolled out on osm.org
> can be curated by a group that is separate from the editor writers?

The question in that case would of course be how the group of people 
supervising this list is selected and what the guiding principles of 
this project are.

But the general direction of your idea seems right - breaking up the 
direct connection between editors and presets, maintaining presets in a 
form that is interoperable between editors and offering a choice which 
presets to use to editor users and - in case of iD - editor 
deployments.  In such a situation you would not need to worry about who 
controls an individual collection of tagging presets any more since 
there would probably be sufficient diversity for this to be self 
regulating.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 19.06.2018 14:16, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> seems to be quite the opposite of that approach.  Now i know of course 
> an editor and its presets is not the same as a map style but still it 
> seems important to have some objective goals and criteria for decisions 
> regarding presets, especially if you present addition, change or 
> removal of presets as pre-planned steps in a process to change tagging.

Perhaps it would make sense to treat the iD editor and the tagging
presets it uses as two different projects that are conceptually separate
enough so that the tagging presets as rolled out on osm.org can be
curated by a group that is separate from the editor writers?

I don't think designing tags is what the editor writers should do, that
would clearly be overstepping their mandate.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Bryan Housel]

> This is not the first time, and you have stated more than once your idea of 
> tag creation and endorsement is top down, with the software maintainer 
> deciding the tags on the input side, sweeping away the confusing plurality of 
> comunity created tags. 

That’s not really what I think - are you sure I said that?

I think the community should continue to invent tags, but if the tags that 
aren’t very good (as decided by people who work on software), I think we should 
have a process for replacing them.  You're right that this has been going on 
for a while, but starting now I’m trying to involve the community more rather 
than just changing things in the editor.


> There is no reason you shouldn't properly document the changes in tagging 
> recommendation in the wiki via a proposal like all other mappers and 
> developers do.

Proposals don’t work - see `transit:lanes`.. see the long thread about 
`landcover vs landuse`.  etc. etc.
This is the main reason I’ve decided to step up and take the lead on these 
things. 
The old process wasn’t working. 


> You won't be able to argue that it takes less time or is more efficient to 
> discuss this on the tagging mailing list.

Truer words were never spoken..  I expect this to be a bit of a time sink, but 
I’m hoping some more people will step up and do some of the work necessary (and 
no, debating tags on a mailing list is not meaningful work).

I’m happy to do the work on the editor side, but we need people to work on 
actual tag migrations (either manually or via automated scripts), and we need a 
dedicated corps of volunteers who care about making the wiki simple and 
accurate. 


Thanks Bryan


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Bryan Housel]

Basically, yeah 


> On Jun 19, 2018, at 9:47 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> 
> On 19/06/2018 14:37, Bryan Housel wrote:
>> Yes it was settled a week ago
>> The migration is being discussed here: 
>> https://github.com/osmlab/osm-tagging/issues/1
>> This thread can end now :)
>> 
>> Thanks, Bryan
>> 
> 
> So as well as being lead developer on an OSM editor you reckon that you've 
> not been getting enough ad hominem attacks and have appointed yourself OSM 
> tagging dictator as well?Clearly someone who really doesn't like the 
> quiet life :)
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-19 15:37 GMT+02:00 Bryan Housel :

> Yes it was settled a week ago
> The migration is being discussed here:  https://github.com/osmlab/
> osm-tagging/issues/1
> This thread can end now :)
>


I don't believe the OSM community should allow the maintainer of their
default editor to introduce new tags unilaterally. I agree you must not
support all tags, not even those with significant usage, but you must not
introduce new tags. This is not the first time, and you have stated more
than once your idea of tag creation and endorsement is top down, with the
software maintainer deciding the tags on the input side, sweeping away the
confusing plurality of comunity created tags.

There is no reason you shouldn't properly document the changes in tagging
recommendation in the wiki via a proposal like all other mappers and
developers do. You won't be able to argue that it takes less time or is
more efficient to discuss this on the tagging mailing list.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Andy Townsend]

On 19/06/2018 14:37, Bryan Housel wrote:

Yes it was settled a week ago
The migration is being discussed here: 
https://github.com/osmlab/osm-tagging/issues/1

This thread can end now :)

Thanks, Bryan



So as well as being lead developer on an OSM editor you reckon that 
you've not been getting enough ad hominem attacks and have appointed 
yourself OSM tagging dictator as well?    Clearly someone who really 
doesn't like the quiet life :)




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Tod Fitch]

> On Jun 18, 2018, at 9:23 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> On 19 June 2018 at 08:45, Graeme Fitzpatrick  > wrote:
> 
> That's the concern I have with "place" - our lifesavers operate out of a surf 
> club, a permanent building behind the beach (lifeguard=base). Each morning, 
> they will decide the safest part of the beach, so will set up 200 m's right 
> of the club this morning, but tomorrow they may be 100 m's left - that 
> shouldn't be a lifeguard=place
> 
> Just had a thought as I'm starting to work on a wiki page.
> 
> Could we use lifeguard=area (or similar) to show that there is a lifeguard on 
> duty somewhere in this area, but not at an exact location, or too messy?
> 


FWIW, I volunteer on a back country ski patrol (winter rescue) and while we 
have a building we use as our base of operations the areas we patrol are very 
dependent on snow pack and where we notice people going to. Your concept of 
lifeguard=area could possibly be applied to our situation. That said, mapping 
an exact boundary of the area served would be very problematic: Unlike a 
developed ski area there are no signs indicating you are leaving the the 
official boundaries. It is, after all, undeveloped “back country”.

The boundary issue may also apply to lifeguards on the beach: Both to the north 
and south of the beaches in the town I live in there is no clear demarcation of 
where the area served ends (no signs, etc.). Having a few years of observation 
and having talked to some of the year round lifeguards, I have a general feel 
for the areas but not exact enough to map.

And it may well be seasonal: Most of the lifeguards work only in summer as that 
is when the crowds are largest and the city (local beach by me) and the state 
(beaches to the north and south of the city) save money by having a greatly 
reduced staff and thus coverage in the off season.

> On Jun 18, 2018, at 11:52 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  
> wrote:
> 
> On 19 June 2018 at 08:34, Tod Fitch  > wrote:
> 
> Might want to check if there is some sort of tag indicating seasonal before 
> removing from the map.
> 
> On the beach near me many of the lifeguard structures are built on what 
> amounts to a sledge and are dragged to storage at the end of the summer 
> season. In summer they are placed in the same locations each year, if nothing 
> else so that the communications and power connections don’t need to be 
> relaid. But even if they don’t need power and communications, the visitor use 
> patterns remain fairly constant so the location of lifeguard 
> stations/towers/structures remains fairly constant.
> 
> In any even, depending on the season the aerial imagery was taken you may see 
> only an empty stretch of beach. Or you may see what looks like a small 
> building from above.
> 
> Thanks Tod - sorry, I missed your post earlier.
> 
> I haven't seen any seasonal tags on any of the stations I've looked at so far.
> 
> A portable tower that get's put away over Winter then goes back in the same 
> spot next year is a new one on me, but could well explain some of the shots 
> that appear to show a structure, which then isn't there in other shots. What 
> area are you in?  
> 

Southern California. Two things probably contribute to the local practice: Lack 
of crowds during winter and winter storms typically do the most damage to beach 
side facilities. I am not even sure that other beach towns near by follow the 
same practice, only that the town I live in does.

Cheers!


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Bryan Housel]

Yes it was settled a week ago
The migration is being discussed here:  
https://github.com/osmlab/osm-tagging/issues/1 

This thread can end now :)

Thanks, Bryan




> On Jun 19, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 2018-06-19 15:14 GMT+02:00 Bryan Housel  >:
> Thank you for checking! 
> I guess those can be`emergency=lifeguard + lifeguard=base`
> (what was decided before)
> 
> 
> "decided"? 
> I suggest you use a different key than "emergency" for this new tag you 
> intend to introduce via iD presets, the above would conflict with the 
> established tags. E.g. use "amenity", so that both systems can coexist.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-19 15:14 GMT+02:00 Bryan Housel :

> Thank you for checking!
> I guess those can be`emergency=lifeguard + lifeguard=base`
> (what was decided before)



"decided"?
I suggest you use a different key than "emergency" for this new tag you
intend to introduce via iD presets, the above would conflict with the
established tags. E.g. use "amenity", so that both systems can coexist.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Bryan Housel]

Thank you for checking! 
I guess those can be`emergency=lifeguard + lifeguard=base`
(what was decided before)


> On Jun 19, 2018, at 8:39 AM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> I just randomly checked out 20 of the places currently tagged with 
> emergency=lifeguard_base and none of them looked like something for which 
> office=lifeguard would seem appropriate, but all of them looked like what I 
> expected, a place where you can find lifeguards, just with more equipment and 
> infrastructure than a lifeguard_tower.
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: marc marc 
>> Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 22:24
>> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
>> 
>> Le 19. 06. 18 à 13:56, Bryan Housel a écrit :
>>>> the lifeguard base is defined for storage and administration
>> 
>>> It could be `office=lifeguard`
>> 
>> that look like a good idea at least for the administration
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[osm.tagging]

I just randomly checked out 20 of the places currently tagged with 
emergency=lifeguard_base and none of them looked like something for which 
office=lifeguard would seem appropriate, but all of them looked like what I 
expected, a place where you can find lifeguards, just with more equipment and 
infrastructure than a lifeguard_tower.

> -Original Message-
> From: marc marc 
> Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 22:24
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
> 
> Le 19. 06. 18 à 13:56, Bryan Housel a écrit :
> >> the lifeguard base is defined for storage and administration
> 
> > It could be `office=lifeguard`
> 
> that look like a good idea at least for the administration
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[marc marc]

Le 19. 06. 18 à 13:56, Bryan Housel a écrit :
>> the lifeguard base is defined for storage and administration

> It could be `office=lifeguard`

that look like a good idea at least for the administration
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 19.06.2018 um 13:41 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:



water_rescue_station vs. lifeguard_base

there are 216 emergency=water_rescue_station which to me seems a 
pretty self explanatory tag to indicate a somehow permanent presence 
of lifeguards with some infrastructure. The wiki says it is in 
proximity to the water surface it is guarding. The other tag is 
emergency=lifeguard_base with 240 uses and defined as the "main 
building" where the administrative work gets done and equipment and 
vehicles are "stored".
I do not think we should merge those former 2 tags, they are both 
documented and clearly describe something very different. I agree the 
decision to use emergency=lifeguard_base for the office and storage 
building could be questioned, regarding the word "lifeguard base" 
(which to me suggests a place where lifeguards operate / supervise, 
not where they do the paperwork, as it is intended according to the 
wiki) and maybe also regarding the choice of "emergency" as a key, 
although this could be argumented because they are part of "emergency" 
services somehow.


Maybe I do see a clear separation in the wiki pages. It is a very 
unpractical one, though. In most cases I know a Water Rescue Station and 
a Lifeguard Base would share the same facility with the same people 
manning them. And checking some sample usages I strongly suspect that 
most tagged Lifeguard Bases should rather be Water Rescue Stations or 
sometime even Lifeguard Towers or Platforms. When looking for the 
emergency relevant facility you would rather look for the rescue station 
than for the admin building, wouldn't you?





There are also 443 emergency=lifeguard_tower
to me this looks like a clear tag, and I see no benefit in changing 
this to 2 tags like emergency=lifeguard  and lifeguard=tower.




Maybe it's better to just introduce a new emergency=lifeguard in
addition to the existing emergency=lifguard_base, that way Bryan
can offer that in iD and existing tags, data consumers and wiki
doesn't need to be changed. It's a non-breaking change then
instead of a breaking change.




as the lifeguard base is defined for storage and administration, it 
doesn't seem to fit with the expectations one would have from a 
potential new emergency=lifeguard.
I don't see why the expectation should be different since Lifeguard Base 
already is under the emergency category. I would concur putting it under 
office might make more sense.


Tobias
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Christoph Hormann]

Don't want to comment on the subject itself but since you open a lot of 
tagging discussions w.r.t. presets in iD i am wondering if there is a 
documented policy on presets in iD and if not if it might be time to 
think about having one.

The reason i am asking is that by bringing up a tagging issue and at the 
same time directly connecting it to presets in a popular editor you 
have a significant risk of distorting the usual process in which 
tagging rules are established in OSM.  By indicating that a consensus 
in the discussion here will manifest in iD presets independent of other 
factors that might not even have come up in the discussion here but 
which tend to rightfully affect the success of a tagging idea in the 
normal process where mappers over time "vote with their feet" so to 
speak you could end up with a "the tail wagging the dog" situation 
(i.e. the OSM establishment here telling the global mapper community 
top down how to map things).

In OSM-Carto it has been long time practice that rendering decisions 
should support mappers in consistent use of tags but should not attempt 
to actively steer mappers to change mapping habits - even in cases 
where that would be extremely convenient for rendering.  And how to 
ensure that has been a frequent subject and occasionally also a point 
of conflict in style development discussions in the past.

What you sketch in 

https://github.com/osmlab/osm-tagging/issues/1

seems to be quite the opposite of that approach.  Now i know of course 
an editor and its presets is not the same as a map style but still it 
seems important to have some objective goals and criteria for decisions 
regarding presets, especially if you present addition, change or 
removal of presets as pre-planned steps in a process to change tagging.

Please don't interpret this as a critique of your attempts to improve 
tagging in OSM (which are admirable).  My comment is only about 
actively connecting this to editor preset decisions.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Bryan Housel]

> On Jun 19, 2018, at 7:41 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 2018-06-19 11:17 GMT+02:00 Andrew Harvey  >:
> Martin, which part? The whole reason this discussion started is because Bryan 
> wants to offer a way to tag a lifeguard facility iD without forcing users to 
> choose the exact kind of lifeguard facility. At the moment with the current 
> documentation on the wiki you need to choose what type, and can't say it's a 
> generic.
> 
> My suggestion for this case is to add lifeguard/s=yes as property to the 
> guarded object or part of the object that is guarded / supervised, or maybe 
> supervised:lifeguard=yes ?

You can do this too, I won’t complain.


> If Bryan wants to propose a new "neutral" lifeguard facility which does not 
> bear any information in the first level about the kind of feature on the 
> ground (in contrast to the system that has evolved through the comunity 
> process), I suggest he sets up a proposal. There are currently only 6 uses of 
> emergency=lifeguard


The lifeguard tags that have "evolved through the community process" are flawed 
and not really used much, so we’re changing them. 
(I will not be doing a proposal, but posting to tagging mailing list seems 
nicer than just changing things)

going forward:

`emergency=lifeguard`
`lifeguard=*`   (tbh I dont care what values go here, base, place, space, 
whatever)


> water_rescue_station vs. lifeguard_base
> 
> there are 216 emergency=water_rescue_station which to me seems a pretty self 
> explanatory tag to indicate a somehow permanent presence of lifeguards with 
> some infrastructure. The wiki says it is in proximity to the water surface it 
> is guarding. The other tag is emergency=lifeguard_base with 240 uses and 
> defined as the "main building" where the administrative work gets done and 
> equipment and vehicles are "stored". 

It’s fine for people to keep tagging these but I probably wouldn't add a preset 
for this in iD.


> as the lifeguard base is defined for storage and administration, it doesn't 
> seem to fit with the expectations one would have from a potential new 
> emergency=lifeguard. 

It could be `office=lifeguard` then.  Let’s get rid of them.


Thanks, Bryan

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-19 11:17 GMT+02:00 Andrew Harvey :

> Martin, which part? The whole reason this discussion started is because
> Bryan wants to offer a way to tag a lifeguard facility iD without forcing
> users to choose the exact kind of lifeguard facility. At the moment with
> the current documentation on the wiki you need to choose what type, and
> can't say it's a generic.
>


My suggestion for this case is to add lifeguard/s=yes as property to the
guarded object or part of the object that is guarded / supervised, or maybe
supervised:lifeguard=yes ?

If Bryan wants to propose a new "neutral" lifeguard facility which does not
bear any information in the first level about the kind of feature on the
ground (in contrast to the system that has evolved through the comunity
process), I suggest he sets up a proposal. There are currently only 6 uses
of emergency=lifeguard


water_rescue_station vs. lifeguard_base

there are 216 emergency=water_rescue_station which to me seems a pretty
self explanatory tag to indicate a somehow permanent presence of lifeguards
with some infrastructure. The wiki says it is in proximity to the water
surface it is guarding. The other tag is emergency=lifeguard_base with 240
uses and defined as the "main building" where the administrative work gets
done and equipment and vehicles are "stored".


I do not think we should merge those former 2 tags, they are both
documented and clearly describe something very different. I agree the
decision to use emergency=lifeguard_base for the office and storage
building could be questioned, regarding the word "lifeguard base" (which to
me suggests a place where lifeguards operate / supervise, not where they do
the paperwork, as it is intended according to the wiki) and maybe also
regarding the choice of "emergency" as a key, although this could be
argumented because they are part of "emergency" services somehow.

There are also 443 emergency=lifeguard_tower
to me this looks like a clear tag, and I see no benefit in changing this to
2 tags like emergency=lifeguard  and lifeguard=tower.



> Maybe it's better to just introduce a new emergency=lifeguard in addition
> to the existing emergency=lifguard_base, that way Bryan can offer that in
> iD and existing tags, data consumers and wiki doesn't need to be changed.
> It's a non-breaking change then instead of a breaking change.
>



as the lifeguard base is defined for storage and administration, it doesn't
seem to fit with the expectations one would have from a potential new
emergency=lifeguard.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Andrew Harvey]

Martin, which part? The whole reason this discussion started is because
Bryan wants to offer a way to tag a lifeguard facility iD without forcing
users to choose the exact kind of lifeguard facility. At the moment with
the current documentation on the wiki you need to choose what type, and
can't say it's a generic.

Maybe it's better to just introduce a new emergency=lifeguard in addition
to the existing emergency=lifguard_base, that way Bryan can offer that in
iD and existing tags, data consumers and wiki doesn't need to be changed.
It's a non-breaking change then instead of a breaking change.

On 19 June 2018 at 19:08, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> 2018-06-19 10:56 GMT+02:00 :
>
>>
>>
>> The whole purpose of this thread is to move from emergency=lifeguard_base
>> to emergency=lifeguard + lifeguard=base.
>>
>>
>>
>> And the existing existing=water_rescue_station seem to be identical in
>> meaning to lifeguard_base, as such should be changed into
>> emergency=lifeguard + lifeguard=base.
>>
>
>
> crazy, please do not do it, I cannot see any advantage.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Warin]

On 19/06/18 16:19, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
I've had a go at starting a wiki page for info & discussion: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Emergency%3Dlifeguard


This is my first attempt at a wiki, so please be kind! :-)

All input welcome from those of you who actually know how to do it!


First step: Cheat as much as you can!!!
Find a wiki page you like and use that as your template.

Then look around for other wiki pages .. if you likle some bit of it .. 
steel that too.


Combine them all together and see how it looks.

Then do the content.
Here is one I have hacked at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce

You can use photos from wikipedia. Some times they are very good. If you 
can find one that does the whole description thing you are on a winner.




Thanks

Graeme

On 19 June 2018 at 14:58, <mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au>> wrote:


Something like that is exactly what I as looking for…

*From:*Graeme Fitzpatrick mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>>
*Sent:* Tuesday, 19 June 2018 14:24
*To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>>
    *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

On 19 June 2018 at 08:45, Graeme Fitzpatrick
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:

That's the concern I have with "place" - our lifesavers
operate out of a surf club, a permanent building behind the
beach (lifeguard=base). Each morning, they will decide the
safest part of the beach, so will set up 200 m's right of the
club this morning, but tomorrow they may be 100 m's left -
that shouldn't be a lifeguard=place

Just had a thought as I'm starting to work on a wiki page.

Could we use lifeguard=area (or similar) to show that there is a
lifeguard on duty somewhere in this area, but not at an exact
location, or too messy?


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org>
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging>




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-19 10:56 GMT+02:00 :

>
>
> The whole purpose of this thread is to move from emergency=lifeguard_base
> to emergency=lifeguard + lifeguard=base.
>
>
>
> And the existing existing=water_rescue_station seem to be identical in
> meaning to lifeguard_base, as such should be changed into
> emergency=lifeguard + lifeguard=base.
>


crazy, please do not do it, I cannot see any advantage.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Warin]

On 19/06/18 16:52, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
On 19 June 2018 at 16:30, Marc Gemis > wrote:


> I'll take a stab at ambulance / paramedic / emergency rescue or
something along those lines, but I think we're agreed it's not a
"lifeguard"?


I agree, but perhaps we should involve the Russian community to
improve the wiki, as part of the mistagging is happening there.


Yep, good idea.

How? :-)

Just a post on the RU list? Does it need to be in Russian, because I 
certainly can't speak (or write) it!


I have used a translator to do the basics.
I have prefaced it with "Electronic translation. It should convey the 
information... but may not be technically the best language wise."
Or something similar ... I also include the English source .. so those 
who may like to see that can have a play.


Worked reasonable well.
Note: Russian Ice Cream is really good. Forget the beer.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[osm.tagging]

From: Martin Koppenhoefer  
Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 18:24
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

 

IMHO, if you want to tag the former, be explicit, do not use amenity=lifeguard 
because it is ambiguous, use something like amenity=lifeguard_station (or 
emergency rather than amenity).

 

 

 

The whole purpose of this thread is to move from emergency=lifeguard_base to 
emergency=lifeguard + lifeguard=base.

 

And the existing existing=water_rescue_station seem to be identical in meaning 
to lifeguard_base, as such should be changed into emergency=lifeguard + 
lifeguard=base.

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-18 18:03 GMT+02:00 Tobias Wrede :

> Am 11.06.2018 um 23:09 schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick:
>
> Had a look at https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserrettungsstation & it's
> a purely German organisation, which would appear to be life guards,
> although with possibly a bit of Coast Guard / Marine Rescue included?
>
> Actually, this would be the general German term for a lifeguard base. They
> are manned/run by different organisations (DLRG, ASB, Wasserwacht). To my
> knowledge they only do near shore rescuing for swimmers, surfers, light
> boats etc.
>


+1, these are permanent stations (although I would not expect them to
operate in the winter in Germany, do they?), unlike for example these:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WOPR-Pobierowo-2006.jpg which are
set up in the season and do not operate out of a permanent structure. IMHO,
if you want to tag the former, be explicit, do not use amenity=lifeguard
because it is ambiguous, use something like amenity=lifeguard_station (or
emergency rather than amenity).




> Off-shore rescuing more intended for rescuing ships' crews is done by
> German Coast Guard (Küstenwache, state run) or more often by another
> non-governmental organization called Deutsche Gesellschaft zur Rettung
> Schiffbrüchiger.
>


coast guards have a lot of competences usually, rescuing people is just one
of their many duties. They can be seen as kind of police, military or
customs, often they will also: control the coasts for unapproved pollution,
look for informal immigrants and trafficking of all kind via the sea, look
for illegal constructions at the coasts, control the quota for fishing,
control of vessels with respect to maritime law, etc. in short a kind of
police on the water.

Amenity=coast_guard is currently proposed, has not yet 100 usages, and can
be found here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aamenity%3Dcoast_guard
There is also emergency=coast_guard with a fifth of the usage and IMHO less
suitable (because this is not only or mainly about "emergency", see above).

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 19 June 2018 at 08:34, Tod Fitch  wrote:

>
> Might want to check if there is some sort of tag indicating seasonal
> before removing from the map.
>
> On the beach near me many of the lifeguard structures are built on what
> amounts to a sledge and are dragged to storage at the end of the summer
> season. In summer they are placed in the same locations each year, if
> nothing else so that the communications and power connections don’t need to
> be relaid. But even if they don’t need power and communications, the
> visitor use patterns remain fairly constant so the location of lifeguard
> stations/towers/structures remains fairly constant.
>
> In any even, depending on the season the aerial imagery was taken you may
> see only an empty stretch of beach. Or you may see what looks like a small
> building from above.
>

Thanks Tod - sorry, I missed your post earlier.

I haven't seen any seasonal tags on any of the stations I've looked at so
far.

A portable tower that get's put away over Winter then goes back in the same
spot next year is a new one on me, but could well explain some of the shots
that appear to show a structure, which then isn't there in other shots.
What area are you in?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 19 June 2018 at 16:30, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> > I'll take a stab at ambulance / paramedic / emergency rescue or
> something along those lines, but I think we're agreed it's not a
> "lifeguard"?
>
>
> I agree, but perhaps we should involve the Russian community to
> improve the wiki, as part of the mistagging is happening there.
>

Yep, good idea.

How? :-)

Just a post on the RU list? Does it need to be in Russian, because I
certainly can't speak (or write) it!

>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Marc Gemis]

> I'll take a stab at ambulance / paramedic / emergency rescue or something 
> along those lines, but I think we're agreed it's not a "lifeguard"?


I agree, but perhaps we should involve the Russian community to
improve the wiki, as part of the mistagging is happening there.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I've had a go at starting a wiki page for info & discussion:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Emergency%3Dlifeguard

This is my first attempt at a wiki, so please be kind! :-)

All input welcome from those of you who actually know how to do it!

Thanks

Graeme

On 19 June 2018 at 14:58,  wrote:

> Something like that is exactly what I as looking for…
>
>
>
> *From:* Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 19 June 2018 14:24
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
>
>
>
>
>
> On 19 June 2018 at 08:45, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> That's the concern I have with "place" - our lifesavers operate out of a
> surf club, a permanent building behind the beach (lifeguard=base). Each
> morning, they will decide the safest part of the beach, so will set up 200
> m's right of the club this morning, but tomorrow they may be 100 m's left -
> that shouldn't be a lifeguard=place
>
>
>
> Just had a thought as I'm starting to work on a wiki page.
>
>
>
> Could we use lifeguard=area (or similar) to show that there is a lifeguard
> on duty somewhere in this area, but not at an exact location, or too messy?
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[osm.tagging]

Something like that is exactly what I as looking for…

 

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick  
Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 14:24
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

 

 

On 19 June 2018 at 08:45, Graeme Fitzpatrick mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

That's the concern I have with "place" - our lifesavers operate out of a surf 
club, a permanent building behind the beach (lifeguard=base). Each morning, 
they will decide the safest part of the beach, so will set up 200 m's right of 
the club this morning, but tomorrow they may be 100 m's left - that shouldn't 
be a lifeguard=place

 

Just had a thought as I'm starting to work on a wiki page.

 

Could we use lifeguard=area (or similar) to show that there is a lifeguard on 
duty somewhere in this area, but not at an exact location, or too messy?

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 19 June 2018 at 08:45, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

>
> That's the concern I have with "place" - our lifesavers operate out of a
> surf club, a permanent building behind the beach (lifeguard=base). Each
> morning, they will decide the safest part of the beach, so will set up 200
> m's right of the club this morning, but tomorrow they may be 100 m's left -
> that shouldn't be a lifeguard=place
>

Just had a thought as I'm starting to work on a wiki page.

Could we use lifeguard=area (or similar) to show that there is a lifeguard
on duty somewhere in this area, but not at an exact location, or too messy?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 18 June 2018 at 21:15, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>  "lifeguard=place" is currently not used at all, and I do not believe it
> is a good tag. "place" is so generic, it doesn't allow for any deduction of
> meaning more than "thing" or "feature", and it is used for toponyms as a
> key in OSM.
>

There's currently 41 (or maybe 76?) of them in use


> On beaches I would distinguish lifeguards that operate out of a structure
> like a tower, a cabin, office or a similar building, from those who only
> sit in a chair below an umbrella or a temporary roof, or maybe not even.
>

That's the concern I have with "place" - our lifesavers operate out of a
surf club, a permanent building behind the beach (lifeguard=base). Each
morning, they will decide the safest part of the beach, so will set up 200
m's right of the club this morning, but tomorrow they may be 100 m's left -
that shouldn't be a lifeguard=place


> Shall it be a feature and a property (feature would indicate the position,
> as property you could add something like lifeguard=yes to a beach or
> swimming pool (likely implied).
>

That's a good idea!
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 18 June 2018 at 21:38,  wrote:
>
>
>
> Well, take as an example this beach: https://www.openstreetmap.org/
> way/17960956
>
>
>
> I don’t think a blanket supervised=yes or lifeguard=yes is appropriate for
> that.
>
>
>
> But there are multiple areas, each maybe a few 100m, somewhere in which a
> lifeguard is going to put down their flags, beach chair, umbralla, whatever
> regularly.
>
>
>
> So the question becomes, what’s the appropriate tagging scheme for these
> areas?
>
> A major problem I have with that "beach" is that if someone has designated
all that stretch as "Surfers Paradise beach", then they have included ~9
separate named beaches under that one name :-( Looks like I've got some
re-mapping to do!

As part of our discussion here, that stretch includes 8 bases & 22 towers
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 18 June 2018 at 21:17, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

>
>> Do we have any tagging scheme for “an area in which it is likely for a
>> lifeguard to be”? I’m not sure if simply tagging an area with
>> emergency=lifeguard lifeguard=place is appropriate for that.
>>
>
> supervised =* to
> indicate if the beach has a lifeguard (yes, no, interval - in the format
> of opening_hours =*
> ) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dbeach
>

"Patrolled"? Or is that possibly suggesting police patrols?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 18 June 2018 at 16:24,  wrote:

>
>
> I didn’t check it out myself, but, based on what you wrote, probably.
> Also, probably means that it’s not a good idea to just do a mechanical edit
> from the current tags to the new ones without reviewing all of them.
>

No, this will have to be a manual check, but there's only ~900 worldwide so
not impossible. Some should  be pretty straight forward - if a building
beside the beach is marked as a base, then that's fine, but an apparently
empty stretch of beach, or water!, being marked as a base or tower isn't. I
guess  message to the original mapper, in a lot of case years ago, asking
or confirmation that there's actually something there will be the best way
to go?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Wow, thanks everybody for your thoughts.

Going through a few comments

On 18 June 2018 at 17:58, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> If you use Google translate from English "lifeguard" to Russian, you
> get Спасатель
> Doing the translation in the other direction, (so from Спасатель to
> English) you get first "rescuer" and as a second "lifesaver".
> Perhaps this has something to do with the lifeguards found away from
> water in e.g . Russia ? Something that is "lost in translation" ?
>

Found 3 - 4 of these in a similar area, one of which is
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/354731850#map=18/56.73835/61.11087

Part of the description gives:  Медицина катастроф - трассовый пунк Малые
Брусяны which Mr Google translates to "Medicine of catastrophes - route
point Small Brusians", which I've got to say doesn't shed an awful lot of
light on the subject!

I'll take a stab at ambulance / paramedic / emergency rescue or something
along those lines, but I think we're agreed it's not a "lifeguard"?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 11.06.2018 um 23:09 schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick:
Had a look at https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserrettungsstation & 
it's a purely German organisation, which would appear to be life 
guards, although with possibly a bit of Coast Guard / Marine Rescue 
included?


Actually, this would be the general German term for a lifeguard base. 
They are manned/run by different organisations (DLRG, ASB, Wasserwacht). 
To my knowledge they only do near shore rescuing for swimmers, surfers, 
light boats etc. Off-shore rescuing more intended for rescuing ships' 
crews is done by German Coast Guard (Küstenwache, state run) or more 
often by another non-governmental organization called Deutsche 
Gesellschaft zur Rettung Schiffbrüchiger.


Tobias
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Andrew Harvey]

On 18 June 2018 at 21:28, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:
>
> 2018-06-18 13:17 GMT+02:00 Andrew Harvey :
>
>> Do we have any tagging scheme for “an area in which it is likely for a
>>> lifeguard to be”? I’m not sure if simply tagging an area with
>>> emergency=lifeguard lifeguard=place is appropriate for that.
>>>
>>
>> supervised =* to
>> indicate if the beach has a lifeguard (yes, no, interval - in the format
>> of opening_hours 
>> =*) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dbeach
>>
>
> there are different kind of "supervision" on beaches possible: supervision
> that the equipment at the beach is fine (including for example chairs,
> umbrellas, sport pitches), or lifeguards who do not control the beach but
> the water in front of the beach, and do only check for people endangered by
> the water, not for things that might be damaged. The supervision tag
> definition is not clear on this (or if you read it literally, is not
> applying unambiguously well to lifeguards).
>

Agreed but the wiki for beach says when applied to beaches it specifically
means supervised by a lifeguard, when applied to other features yes it's
unrelated to lifeguards. This is how I've been using the tag, I think
that's okay as the default. It is common for beaches to have supervision
that's not a lifeguard? I'm all ears for a proposal for finer grain
tagging, but until them I'd encourage people to keep mapping per the wiki
using supervised on beaches with lifeguards.

On 18 June 2018 at 21:38,  wrote:
>
> Well, take as an example this beach: https://www.openstreetmap.org/
> way/17960956
>
>
>
> I don’t think a blanket supervised=yes or lifeguard=yes is appropriate for
> that.
>
>
>
> But there are multiple areas, each maybe a few 100m, somewhere in which a
> lifeguard is going to put down their flags, beach chair, umbralla, whatever
> regularly.
>
>
>
> So the question becomes, what’s the appropriate tagging scheme for these
> areas?
>

I'd suggest that if there are sections permanently patrolled, to break it
up and use a multipolygon relation on the whole beach and tag each
patrolled section as supervised. Just like how a single road is split up to
tag different maxspeed, surface, lanes etc.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[osm.tagging]

From: Andrew Harvey  
Sent: Monday, 18 June 2018 21:17
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

 

Do we have any tagging scheme for “an area in which it is likely for a 
lifeguard to be”? I’m not sure if simply tagging an area with 
emergency=lifeguard lifeguard=place is appropriate for that.

 

 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:supervised> supervised=* to indicate 
if the beach has a lifeguard (yes, no, interval - in the format of  
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours> opening_hours=*) 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dbeach

 

 

 

Well, take as an example this beach: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/17960956

 

I don’t think a blanket supervised=yes or lifeguard=yes is appropriate for that.

 

But there are multiple areas, each maybe a few 100m, somewhere in which a 
lifeguard is going to put down their flags, beach chair, umbralla, whatever 
regularly.

 

So the question becomes, what’s the appropriate tagging scheme for these areas?

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-18 13:17 GMT+02:00 Andrew Harvey :

> Do we have any tagging scheme for “an area in which it is likely for a
>> lifeguard to be”? I’m not sure if simply tagging an area with
>> emergency=lifeguard lifeguard=place is appropriate for that.
>>
>
> supervised =* to
> indicate if the beach has a lifeguard (yes, no, interval - in the format
> of opening_hours =*
> ) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dbeach
>



there are different kind of "supervision" on beaches possible: supervision
that the equipment at the beach is fine (including for example chairs,
umbrellas, sport pitches), or lifeguards who do not control the beach but
the water in front of the beach, and do only check for people endangered by
the water, not for things that might be damaged. The supervision tag
definition is not clear on this (or if you read it literally, is not
applying unambiguously well to lifeguards).

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Andrew Harvey]

On 18 June 2018 at 21:04,  wrote:

>
>
> While on the topic of lifeguards, lifeguard=place on a node doesn’t really
> fit to beaches where there a lifeguard place is usually, but it can be
> anywhere in a larger section of the beach on a day by day basis, depending
> on the weather and sea conditions at that moment.
>

If they move around the beach day to day, then the lifeguard=place tag
isn't appropriate. I think it's only when there is pretty much a permanent
chair/position (can be seasonal or with opening hours, but has some
recurrence to it)


>
> Do we have any tagging scheme for “an area in which it is likely for a
> lifeguard to be”? I’m not sure if simply tagging an area with
> emergency=lifeguard lifeguard=place is appropriate for that.
>

supervised =* to
indicate if the beach has a lifeguard (yes, no, interval - in the format of
opening_hours =*)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dbeach
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-18 13:04 GMT+02:00 :

>
> For what it’s worth, I fully agree with you. Any emergency=lifeguard[_*]
> that’s not anywhere close to water is pretty much guaranteed to be a
> tagging error.
>
>
>
> While on the topic of lifeguards, lifeguard=place on a node doesn’t really
> fit to beaches where there a lifeguard place is usually, but it can be
> anywhere in a larger section of the beach on a day by day basis, depending
> on the weather and sea conditions at that moment.
>



 "lifeguard=place" is currently not used at all, and I do not believe it is
a good tag. "place" is so generic, it doesn't allow for any deduction of
meaning more than "thing" or "feature", and it is used for toponyms as a
key in OSM.
On beaches I would distinguish lifeguards that operate out of a structure
like a tower, a cabin, office or a similar building, from those who only
sit in a chair below an umbrella or a temporary roof, or maybe not even.

Shall it be a feature and a property (feature would indicate the position,
as property you could add something like lifeguard=yes to a beach or
swimming pool (likely implied).

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[osm.tagging]

No worries.

 

For what it’s worth, I fully agree with you. Any emergency=lifeguard[_*] that’s 
not anywhere close to water is pretty much guaranteed to be a tagging error.

 

While on the topic of lifeguards, lifeguard=place on a node doesn’t really fit 
to beaches where there a lifeguard place is usually, but it can be anywhere in 
a larger section of the beach on a day by day basis, depending on the weather 
and sea conditions at that moment.

 

Do we have any tagging scheme for “an area in which it is likely for a 
lifeguard to be”? I’m not sure if simply tagging an area with 
emergency=lifeguard lifeguard=place is appropriate for that. 

 

From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Monday, 18 June 2018 20:44
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

 

On 18/06/18 18:39, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
<mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au>  wrote:

From: Warin  <mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com> <61sundow...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Monday, 18 June 2018 17:35
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org <mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

 

On 18/06/18 16:24, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
<mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au>  wrote:

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick  <mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com> 
 
Sent: Monday, 18 June 2018 16:01
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools  
<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

 

while some show a shape in one image, but other's, possibly during the northern 
winter, show an empty deserted beach.

 

 

I would consider lifeguard=place to be still acceptable for these if there is 
some defined time when a lifeguard is present. Maybe specified with a seasonal 
tag or opening_hours (e.g. only on weekends or something like that).

 

If it is not near water .. then how does it match the general perception of 
'lifeguard'? 

Definition of lifeguard - an expert swimmer employed to rescue bathers who get 
into difficulty at a beach or swimming pool.

 

Where did I ever say something else?

 

Apologies .. me reading things that are not there?? 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Warin]

On 18/06/18 18:39, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:


*From:*Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, 18 June 2018 17:35
*To:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
*Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

On 18/06/18 16:24, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
<mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> wrote:


*From:*Graeme Fitzpatrick 
<mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, 18 June 2018 16:01
*To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
 <mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>
    *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

while some show a shape in one image, but other's, possibly during
the northern winter, show an empty deserted beach.

I would consider lifeguard=place to be still acceptable for these
if there is some defined time when a lifeguard is present. Maybe
specified with a seasonal tag or opening_hours (e.g. only on
weekends or something like that).

If it is not near water .. then how does it match the general 
perception of 'lifeguard'?


Definition of /lifeguard/- an expert swimmer employed to rescue 
bathers who get into difficulty at a beach or swimming pool.


Where did I ever say something else?



Apologies .. me reading things that are not there??

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Andrew Harvey]

> I don’t think just because a lifeguard=place isn’t there 24/7, 365 days a
year means it isn’t a lifeguard=place.

Agreed, lifeguard=place might just have a flag/chair which is only there
sometimes, which so long as there is some regularity to it, I think is fine
for OSM.

On 18 June 2018 at 18:39,  wrote:

> *From:* Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, 18 June 2018 17:35
> *To:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
>
>
>
> On 18/06/18 16:24, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
>
> *From:* Graeme Fitzpatrick  
> *Sent:* Monday, 18 June 2018 16:01
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>  
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
>
>
>
> while some show a shape in one image, but other's, possibly during the
> northern winter, show an empty deserted beach.
>
>
>
>
>
> I would consider lifeguard=place to be still acceptable for these if there
> is some defined time when a lifeguard is present. Maybe specified with a
> seasonal tag or opening_hours (e.g. only on weekends or something like
> that).
>
>
>
> If it is not near water .. then how does it match the general perception
> of 'lifeguard'?
>
> Definition of *lifeguard* - an expert swimmer employed to rescue bathers
> who get into difficulty at a beach or swimming pool.
>
>
>
> Where did I ever say something else?
>
>
>
> The one particular case I quoted, and for which I said lifeguard=place
> might still apply is “where a shape is visible in some imagery, but not in
> other” showing an “empty deserted *beach*”. Which pretty clearly implies
> that it’s near water.
>
>
>
> I don’t think just because a lifeguard=place isn’t there 24/7, 365 days a
> year means it isn’t a lifeguard=place.
>
>
>
> Which is why I said that tags like seasonal (e.g. only in summer) or
> opening_hours (e.g. only on weekend, only in specific know times, …) might
> apply.
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[osm.tagging]

> -Original Message-
> From: Marc Gemis 
> Sent: Monday, 18 June 2018 17:59
> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
> 
> If you use Google translate from English "lifeguard" to Russian,
> you get Спасатель Doing the translation in the other direction, (so
> from Спасатель to
> English) you get first "rescuer" and as a second "lifesaver".
> Perhaps this has something to do with the lifeguards found away
> from water in e.g . Russia ? Something that is "lost in
> translation" ?

Yeah, most likely. Which is why the OP suggested improving the wiki... With 
which I fully agree.



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[osm.tagging]

From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Monday, 18 June 2018 17:35
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

 

On 18/06/18 16:24, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
<mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au>  wrote:

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick  <mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com> 
 
Sent: Monday, 18 June 2018 16:01
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools  
<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

 

while some show a shape in one image, but other's, possibly during the northern 
winter, show an empty deserted beach.

 

 

I would consider lifeguard=place to be still acceptable for these if there is 
some defined time when a lifeguard is present. Maybe specified with a seasonal 
tag or opening_hours (e.g. only on weekends or something like that).

 

If it is not near water .. then how does it match the general perception of 
'lifeguard'? 

Definition of lifeguard - an expert swimmer employed to rescue bathers who get 
into difficulty at a beach or swimming pool.

 

Where did I ever say something else?

 

The one particular case I quoted, and for which I said lifeguard=place might 
still apply is “where a shape is visible in some imagery, but not in other” 
showing an “empty deserted *beach*”. Which pretty clearly implies that it’s 
near water.

 

I don’t think just because a lifeguard=place isn’t there 24/7, 365 days a year 
means it isn’t a lifeguard=place.

 

Which is why I said that tags like seasonal (e.g. only in summer) or 
opening_hours (e.g. only on weekend, only in specific know times, …) might 
apply.

 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Marc Gemis]

If you use Google translate from English "lifeguard" to Russian, you
get Спасатель
Doing the translation in the other direction, (so from Спасатель to
English) you get first "rescuer" and as a second "lifesaver".
Perhaps this has something to do with the lifeguards found away from
water in e.g . Russia ? Something that is "lost in translation" ?

m.
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 9:35 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 18/06/18 16:24, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
>
> From: Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> Sent: Monday, 18 June 2018 16:01
> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
>
>
>
> while some show a shape in one image, but other's, possibly during the 
> northern winter, show an empty deserted beach.
>
>
>
>
>
> I would consider lifeguard=place to be still acceptable for these if there is 
> some defined time when a lifeguard is present. Maybe specified with a 
> seasonal tag or opening_hours (e.g. only on weekends or something like that).
>
>
> If it is not near water .. then how does it match the general perception of 
> 'lifeguard'?
>
> Definition of lifeguard - an expert swimmer employed to rescue bathers who 
> get into difficulty at a beach or swimming pool.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[osm.tagging]

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick  
Sent: Monday, 18 June 2018 16:01
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

 

while some show a shape in one image, but other's, possibly during the northern 
winter, show an empty deserted beach.

 

 

I would consider lifeguard=place to be still acceptable for these if there is 
some defined time when a lifeguard is present. Maybe specified with a seasonal 
tag or opening_hours (e.g. only on weekends or something like that).

 

 

Maybe the wiki's need to be modified (consolidated?) to emphasize that 
"lifeguard" refers to rescue of swimmers in the water?

 

 

 

I didn’t check it out myself, but, based on what you wrote, probably. Also, 
probably means that it’s not a good idea to just do a mechanical edit from the 
current tags to the new ones without reviewing all of them.

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 17 June 2018 at 21:34, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

> If the consensus is to change it to emergency=lifeguard + lifeguard=*,
> then I think this needs to be changed in:
>
> 1. The wiki
>
>
> I don't think it's far to the people who put the effort in to do a great
> job on the wiki documentation and those who've been mapping to that
> accepted tagging per the wiki, to change (4) without us first/while doing
> 1,2,3.
>

Thanks Andrew

Did some looking at the various lifeguard pages earlier, then had a play
with Overpass Turbo to have a look at what's what, & it looks as if quite a
few of the existing "lifeguard" entries may not be correct?

Is everyone in agreement that "lifeguard" should relate to somebody located
at a beach / lake / river / pool etc to watch over swimmers & provide
assistance as required?

Similarly, a marked lifeguard facility (base / tower / platform) should be
a permanent structure, or, in the case of a lifeguard=place, be located in
the same position all the time?

When I had a quick scan through various entries, I found a few
lifeguard=bases marked as being at both fire (well away from water) &
mountain-rescue stations; towers shown as actually being located in the
water!; others are on the beach, but nothing is visible in various
satellite images, while some show a shape in one image, but other's,
possibly during the northern winter, show an empty deserted beach.

Also found a few listings in Russia, that show lifeguard=place located
beside a highway in a building that's also marked Doctor, & with a helipad
out the back, once again, nowhere near water?

Maybe the wiki's need to be modified (consolidated?) to emphasize that
"lifeguard" refers to rescue of swimmers in the water?

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Andrew Harvey]

If the consensus is to change it to emergency=lifeguard + lifeguard=*, then
I think this needs to be changed in:

1. The wiki
2. Put forward a proposal to do a mechanical edit to change the existing
tags
3. Carry out that mechanical edit
4. Add the preset in iD

I don't think it's far to the people who put the effort in to do a great
job on the wiki documentation and those who've been mapping to that
accepted tagging per the wiki, to change (4) without us first/while doing
1,2,3.

I think only then we can propose to osm-carto for this to be rendered on
the default OSM basemap.

On 17 June 2018 at 16:38, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

> So, after a few days thought, can we say that we've resolved to work on
> asking for emergency=lifeguard to be rendered, which would then go down to
> lifeguard=base etc?
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> On 12 June 2018 at 07:43, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 11 June 2018 at 17:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/06/18 15:39, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
>>>
>>> *From:* Andrew Harvey 
>>> 
>>> *Sent:* Monday, 11 June 2018 15:31
>>> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>>>  
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Also, water_rescue_station is probably identical to lifeguard_base
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Agree based on the description given at https://wiki.openstreetmap.
>>> org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dwater_rescue_station it sounds like
>>> lifeguard_base.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just based on the tag name I thought it meant something like
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_guard. The wikipedia page seems to
>>> indicate coast_guard is a common term internationally (even though many of
>>> the agencies worldwide aren't known as the "Coast Guard", it seems like
>>> it's common enough for emergency=coast_guard.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That was my first thought too, but then I looked at the description on
>>> the wiki and it very much sounds like a life guard base and not a coast
>>> guard station.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder if any of the current water_rescue_station's are really coast
>>> guards?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That’s certainly possible. If the decision is made to merge these keys,
>>> they will probably all need to be manually checked.
>>>
>>>
>>> Err not in the uk ... coast guard is not military.
>>>
>>> See
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Coastguard
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_National_Lifeboat_Institution
>>>
>>>
>>> In Australia that are volunteers that do marine rescue e.g.
>>>
>>> http://marinerescueqld.org.au/
>>>
>>>
>>> None of these fit in to the beach lifeguard situation.
>>>
>>> I have no idea what the though was behind the OSM water rescue station .
>>> I think that is just confusing.
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>>
>> Agree with you that "Coast Guard" is not a one-size-fits-all term.
>>
>> There is amenity=rescue_station https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/T
>> ag:amenity%3Drescue_station, which, to my mind should actually also be
>> an emergency= listing?
>>
>> Looking at that, it appears that the whole emergency= area has been going
>> to be cleaned up https://wiki.openstreetmap.
>> org/wiki/WikiProject_Emergency_Cleanup - for the last 4 years!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

So, after a few days thought, can we say that we've resolved to work on
asking for emergency=lifeguard to be rendered, which would then go down to
lifeguard=base etc?


Thanks

Graeme

On 12 June 2018 at 07:43, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

>
>
> On 11 June 2018 at 17:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11/06/18 15:39, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
>>
>> *From:* Andrew Harvey 
>> 
>> *Sent:* Monday, 11 June 2018 15:31
>> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>>  
>> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
>>
>>
>>
>> > Also, water_rescue_station is probably identical to lifeguard_base
>>
>>
>>
>> Agree based on the description given at https://wiki.openstreetmap.
>> org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dwater_rescue_station it sounds like
>> lifeguard_base.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just based on the tag name I thought it meant something like
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_guard. The wikipedia page seems to
>> indicate coast_guard is a common term internationally (even though many of
>> the agencies worldwide aren't known as the "Coast Guard", it seems like
>> it's common enough for emergency=coast_guard.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> That was my first thought too, but then I looked at the description on
>> the wiki and it very much sounds like a life guard base and not a coast
>> guard station.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder if any of the current water_rescue_station's are really coast
>> guards?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> That’s certainly possible. If the decision is made to merge these keys,
>> they will probably all need to be manually checked.
>>
>>
>> Err not in the uk ... coast guard is not military.
>>
>> See
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Coastguard
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_National_Lifeboat_Institution
>>
>>
>> In Australia that are volunteers that do marine rescue e.g.
>>
>> http://marinerescueqld.org.au/
>>
>>
>> None of these fit in to the beach lifeguard situation.
>>
>> I have no idea what the though was behind the OSM water rescue station .
>> I think that is just confusing.
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
> Agree with you that "Coast Guard" is not a one-size-fits-all term.
>
> There is amenity=rescue_station https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/
> Tag:amenity%3Drescue_station, which, to my mind should actually also be
> an emergency= listing?
>
> Looking at that, it appears that the whole emergency= area has been going
> to be cleaned up https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_
> Emergency_Cleanup - for the last 4 years!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 11 June 2018 at 17:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/06/18 15:39, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
>
> *From:* Andrew Harvey 
> 
> *Sent:* Monday, 11 June 2018 15:31
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>  
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
>
>
>
> > Also, water_rescue_station is probably identical to lifeguard_base
>
>
>
> Agree based on the description given at https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dwater_rescue_station it sounds like
> lifeguard_base.
>
>
>
> Just based on the tag name I thought it meant something like
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_guard. The wikipedia page seems to
> indicate coast_guard is a common term internationally (even though many of
> the agencies worldwide aren't known as the "Coast Guard", it seems like
> it's common enough for emergency=coast_guard.
>
>
>
>
>
> That was my first thought too, but then I looked at the description on the
> wiki and it very much sounds like a life guard base and not a coast guard
> station.
>
>
>
>
>
> I wonder if any of the current water_rescue_station's are really coast
> guards?
>
>
>
>
>
> That’s certainly possible. If the decision is made to merge these keys,
> they will probably all need to be manually checked.
>
>
> Err not in the uk ... coast guard is not military.
>
> See
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Coastguard
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_National_Lifeboat_Institution
>
>
> In Australia that are volunteers that do marine rescue e.g.
>
> http://marinerescueqld.org.au/
>
>
> None of these fit in to the beach lifeguard situation.
>
> I have no idea what the though was behind the OSM water rescue station . I
> think that is just confusing.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
Agree with you that "Coast Guard" is not a one-size-fits-all term.

There is amenity=rescue_station
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Drescue_station, which, to
my mind should actually also be an emergency= listing?

Looking at that, it appears that the whole emergency= area has been going
to be cleaned up
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Emergency_Cleanup - for the
last 4 years!

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 11 June 2018 at 15:31, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

> > Also, water_rescue_station is probably identical to lifeguard_base
>
>
> Agree based on the description given at https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dwater_rescue_station it sounds like
> lifeguard_base.
>

Had a look at https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserrettungsstation & it's a
purely German organisation, which would appear to be life guards, although
with possibly a bit of Coast Guard / Marine Rescue included?

I'd also go for the simple arrangement:

emergency=lifeguard

lifeguard=base/place/platform/tower


although


emergency=life_ring should remain separate


Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Warin]

On 11/06/18 15:39, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:


*From:*Andrew Harvey 
*Sent:* Monday, 11 June 2018 15:31
*To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 


*Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

> Also, water_rescue_station is probably identical to lifeguard_base

Agree based on the description given at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dwater_rescue_station 
it sounds like lifeguard_base.


Just based on the tag name I thought it meant something like 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_guard. The wikipedia page seems to 
indicate coast_guard is a common term internationally (even though 
many of the agencies worldwide aren't known as the "Coast Guard", it 
seems like it's common enough for emergency=coast_guard.


That was my first thought too, but then I looked at the description on 
the wiki and it very much sounds like a life guard base and not a 
coast guard station.


I wonder if any of the current water_rescue_station's are really coast 
guards?


That’s certainly possible. If the decision is made to merge these 
keys, they will probably all need to be manually checked.




Err not in the uk ... coast guard is not military.

See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Coastguard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_National_Lifeboat_Institution


In Australia that are volunteers that do marine rescue e.g.

http://marinerescueqld.org.au/


None of these fit in to the beach lifeguard situation.

I have no idea what the though was behind the OSM water rescue station . 
I think that is just confusing.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[osm.tagging]

From: Andrew Harvey  
Sent: Monday, 11 June 2018 15:31
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

 

> Also, water_rescue_station is probably identical to lifeguard_base

 

Agree based on the description given at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dwater_rescue_station it 
sounds like lifeguard_base.

 

Just based on the tag name I thought it meant something like 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_guard. The wikipedia page seems to indicate 
coast_guard is a common term internationally (even though many of the agencies 
worldwide aren't known as the "Coast Guard", it seems like it's common enough 
for emergency=coast_guard.

 

 

That was my first thought too, but then I looked at the description on the wiki 
and it very much sounds like a life guard base and not a coast guard station.

 

 

I wonder if any of the current water_rescue_station's are really coast guards?

 

 

That’s certainly possible. If the decision is made to merge these keys, they 
will probably all need to be manually checked.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Andrew Harvey]

On 11 June 2018 at 15:16, Bryan Housel  wrote:
>
> Sounds good - lets do it!
> What are the next steps?
>

Let's wait for people to weigh in, and see if we have a consensus on which
way to proceed.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Andrew Harvey]

> Also, water_rescue_station is probably identical to lifeguard_base


Agree based on the description given at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dwater_rescue_station it
sounds like lifeguard_base.


Just based on the tag name I thought it meant something like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_guard. The wikipedia page seems to
indicate coast_guard is a common term internationally (even though many of
the agencies worldwide aren't known as the "Coast Guard", it seems like
it's common enough for emergency=coast_guard.


I wonder if any of the current water_rescue_station's are really coast
guards?


On 11 June 2018 at 15:04,  wrote:

> These are different things, and the differentiation should definitely not
> simply thrown away.
>
>
>
> Though I’m not fundamentally opposed to making it a hierarchical tag along
> the lines of:
>
>
>
> emergency=lifeguard
>
> lifeguard=base/place/platform/tower
>
>
>
> Also, water_rescue_station is probably identical to lifeguard_base
>
>
>
> All the usual arguments for and against trying to change tags “by decree”
> apply…
>
>
>
> *From:* Bryan Housel 
> *Sent:* Monday, 11 June 2018 14:22
> *To:* osm-tagging 
> *Subject:* [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
>
>
>
> I was looking at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:emergency today.
>
>
>
> We have too many tags for different kinds of lifeguards.  This is too
> confusing.
>
> I don’t want to have to show all these choices to iD users.
>
>
>
> *tag*
>
> *uses*
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_base
> 
>
> 202
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_place
> 
>
> 39
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_platform
> 
>
> 24
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_tower
> 
>
> 424
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dwater_rescue_station
> 
>
> 197
>
>
>
>
>
> More details here:
>
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/4918#issuecomment-374611561
>
>
>
>
>
> Let’s just use one tag *`emergency=lifeguard`*
>
> We can change this before the tags gain too much more traction (a few
> hundred uses is not very many)
>
>
>
> If people really want to map whatever the lifeguard sits on, they can use
> a different tag for that.
>
> `lifeguard_type=platform`  or `tower` or something.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks, Bryan
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Bryan Housel]

> Though I’m not fundamentally opposed to making it a hierarchical tag along 
> the lines of:
> emergency=lifeguard
> lifeguard=base/place/platform/tower

Sounds good - lets do it!  
What are the next steps?


> All the usual arguments for and against trying to change tags “by decree” 
> apply…

Be nice.  You can probably tell that I’m running an experiment today to see 
whether this tagging list is useful or not.
If I wanted to change a tag by decree, I’d just change it.


thanks, Bryan

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Andrew Harvey]

I think having this level of separation is very important and we should
encourage tagging the exact type of lifeguard facility over a generic
emergency=lifeguard.

However in the same way the generic highway=road can be used if the highway
classification isn't known, we could add emergency=lifeguard as a
placeholder tagging until the exact type can be mapped. iD does this via
the "Unknown Road" preset, so we could do the same with an "Unknown
Lifeguard Facility" mapped as emergency=lifeguard. This would ensure it's
non-destructive to the 800+ existing features mapped.

If the consensus is to replace the existing tags into subtags, then a
mechanical edit should happen to ensure those 800+ features are migrated,
if that's not possible, we should retain the current tagging
recommendations.



On 11 June 2018 at 14:22, Bryan Housel  wrote:

> I was looking at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:emergency today.
>
> We have too many tags for different kinds of lifeguards.  This is too
> confusing.
> I don’t want to have to show all these choices to iD users.
>
> taguses
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_base
>  202
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_place
>  39
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_platform
>  24
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_tower
>  424
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dwater_rescue_station
> 
> 197
>
>
> More details here:
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/4918#issuecomment-374611561
>
>
> Let’s just use one tag *`emergency=lifeguard`*
> We can change this before the tags gain too much more traction (a few
> hundred uses is not very many)
>
> If people really want to map whatever the lifeguard sits on, they can use
> a different tag for that.
> `lifeguard_type=platform`  or `tower` or something.
>
>
> Thanks, Bryan
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[osm.tagging]

These are different things, and the differentiation should definitely not 
simply thrown away.

 

Though I’m not fundamentally opposed to making it a hierarchical tag along the 
lines of:

 

emergency=lifeguard

lifeguard=base/place/platform/tower

 

Also, water_rescue_station is probably identical to lifeguard_base

 

All the usual arguments for and against trying to change tags “by decree” apply…

 

From: Bryan Housel  
Sent: Monday, 11 June 2018 14:22
To: osm-tagging 
Subject: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

 

I was looking at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:emergency today.

 

We have too many tags for different kinds of lifeguards.  This is too confusing.

I don’t want to have to show all these choices to iD users.

 


tag

uses


  
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_base

202


  
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_place

39


  
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_platform

24


  
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_tower

424


  
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dwater_rescue_station

197

 

 

More details here:

https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/4918#issuecomment-374611561

 

 

Let’s just use one tag `emergency=lifeguard`

We can change this before the tags gain too much more traction (a few hundred 
uses is not very many)

 

If people really want to map whatever the lifeguard sits on, they can use a 
different tag for that.

`lifeguard_type=platform`  or `tower` or something.

 

 

Thanks, Bryan

 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging