Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Philip Barnes]

I would not consider Lidl or Aldi to be discount shops in the UK. They are not 
really cheaper than the other supermarkets when you compare own brand products.

Lidl in particular stocks some quite expensive luxury products that you will 
not find anywhere else, a whole Serano Ham and stand at Christmas springs to 
mind.

Costco in the UK only allows very select groups to have membership for which 
you would need to provide documentation. It is not a simple case of payment.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=391819

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 27 June 2018 00:52:06 BST, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 27/06/18 08:42, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>
>> On 27 June 2018 at 02:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've set up a propsal, please comment:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/discounter
>>
>
>>
>>
>> Sorry Martin, but to me at least, that proposal doesn't really say 
>> anything?
>>
>> Couldn't /any/ shop become a discounter, just by hanging a sign out 
>> the front "50% off everything in store"?
>>
>> & the Wiki page doesn't  help matters at all?
>>
>> The 4 examples they list for Australia are a main-stream supermarket
>& 
>> the 3 biggest department stores in the country!
>
>+1
>
>Here is an Australian discount shop 
>https://www.discountpartywarehouse.com.au/
>It does sell food .. of a sort.
>
>And the wikipedia list of UK discount shops does not include Aldi nor 
>Lidi .. so the wikipedia does not support the statements made here ..
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_discount_shops_in_the_United_Kingdom

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Warin]

On 27/06/18 08:42, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On 27 June 2018 at 02:22, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote:



I've set up a propsal, please comment:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/discounter



Sorry Martin, but to me at least, that proposal doesn't really say 
anything?


Couldn't /any/ shop become a discounter, just by hanging a sign out 
the front "50% off everything in store"?


& the Wiki page doesn't  help matters at all?

The 4 examples they list for Australia are a main-stream supermarket & 
the 3 biggest department stores in the country!


+1

Here is an Australian discount shop 
https://www.discountpartywarehouse.com.au/

It does sell food .. of a sort.

And the wikipedia list of UK discount shops does not include Aldi nor 
Lidi .. so the wikipedia does not support the statements made here ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_discount_shops_in_the_United_Kingdom


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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 11:29 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 27/06/18 01:33, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 4:22 PM, marc marc 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> maybe something like for=retailer
>> like it exist for social_facility
>>
>
> Best idea I've seen so far.  OK, it's the only idea I've seen so far, but
> it doesn't seem
> obviously wrong (those with a far longer experience of mapping than I have
> may come
> up with many reasons it's a bad idea).
>
>
> access=retailer ??
>

I thought of that, but there are problems.  The first is that
access=members is discouraged in favour of
access=private (Costco requires a membership fee).  The documentation also
seems to be a little
dismissive of using access outside of highways and parking (it doesn't
strongly discourage it but it
doesn't encourage it much).  Authors of editors seem to prefer consistency
in subtags, so if we
allowed access=retailers|members|public there would need to be special-case
code to prevent
the option of making a highway access=retailers being shown.

So maybe wholesaler:for=retailers|members|public is the way to go.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 27 June 2018 at 02:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> I've set up a propsal, please comment:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/discounter
>
>
Sorry Martin, but to me at least, that proposal doesn't really say anything?

Couldn't *any* shop become a discounter, just by hanging a sign out the
front "50% off everything in store"?

& the Wiki page doesn't  help matters at all?

The 4 examples they list for Australia are a main-stream supermarket & the
3 biggest department stores in the country!
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Warin]

On 27/06/18 02:37, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
2018-06-26 17:50 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny >:


26. Jun 2018 15:53 by pla16...@gmail.com :

Again, I have to say that in the UK people think of Aldi and
Lidl as supermarkets.  Cheaper, different brands, but in
the same mental category as Tesco and Safeway.

The same in Poland.



In Australia too they are thought of as supermarkets.


there are clearly verifiable differences, e.g. you cannot buy anything 
truely "fresh" at Aldi or Lidl, there might be a very small selection 
of fruit and vegetable, but they won't have fish or meat or cheese 
other than prepackaged and/or frozen. You will typically not get any 
really good beer, quality might be decent but they don't have the 
upper end quality (and maybe not even the low end), the extremely 
reduced variety is also observable, as is the presentation style (in 
boxes, not individually, etc.).


The quality, variety and costs of the products and produce is not 
something that OSM has tagged, indeed there is opposition to adding tags 
as to what stores sell. I would think the quality and costs would have 
even more opposition.


So I think at best this is a sub tag ... and I won't be using it ever. 
Much too subjective.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Warin]

On 27/06/18 01:33, Paul Allen wrote:
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 4:22 PM, marc marc > wrote:


Le 26. 06. 18 à 16:37, Paul Allen a écrit :

> Ummm, so how do we map real wholesalers, who sell only to
retailers and not
> to the general public?

maybe something like for=retailer
like it exist for social_facility


Best idea I've seen so far.  OK, it's the only idea I've seen so far, 
but it doesn't seem
obviously wrong (those with a far longer experience of mapping than I 
have may come

up with many reasons it's a bad idea).


access=retailer ??
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-26 17:50 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

> 26. Jun 2018 15:53 by pla16...@gmail.com:
>
> Again, I have to say that in the UK people think of Aldi and Lidl as
> supermarkets.  Cheaper, different brands, but in
> the same mental category as Tesco and Safeway.
>
> The same in Poland.
>


there are clearly verifiable differences, e.g. you cannot buy anything
truely "fresh" at Aldi or Lidl, there might be a very small selection of
fruit and vegetable, but they won't have fish or meat or cheese other than
prepackaged and/or frozen. You will typically not get any really good beer,
quality might be decent but they don't have the upper end quality (and
maybe not even the low end), the extremely reduced variety is also
observable, as is the presentation style (in boxes, not individually,
etc.).

For other kind of store that are not selling food, the attribute "discount"
often means supposedly cheap, inferior products (and maybe additionally
quality stuff at the usual price), might be ok for occasional use, but the
Pros buy elsewhere.

There are also drugstore discounters (DM etc.), which have in Germany
entirely replaced what once were the chemists. Or building_centres which
have replaced serious hard ware stores (talking again about Germany here,
in Italy there are still ten thousands of hardware stores, you find them at
every second corner, but they often sell the same china tools you get at
OBI).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-26 15:53 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

> I'd categorize Toys "R" Us as a toy store and Staples as an office supply
> store.  As somebody else said in this
> thread, we shouldn't be tagging shops differently because their prices are
> lower.
>


the lower price comes at a cost.



>  "Today I want to buy something, ANYTHING, at a discount but I can't decide
> whether to go to Toys "R" Us or Staples."  Doesn't happen.
>


indeed. looks as if this would better a property, e.g. shop=supermarket,
discounter=yes

You could also use this information also the other way round: get me all x
around me, but not those with discounter=not no
To me it seems useful. Better question is verifiability, but for the
objects I have in mind, they state it themselves.

could also be applied to electronic shops and probably to any kind of shop
selling goods.

I've set up a propsal, please comment:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/discounter

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Mateusz Konieczny]

26. Jun 2018 15:53 by pla16...@gmail.com :


> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <> 
> dieterdre...@gmail.com > > wrote:
>
>>
>> indeed Aldi is the first (at least in Europe) to operate this way. It is not 
>> unlikely the discount store description in wikipedia was influenced by 
>> Germans >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_store 
>> 
>> and names Aldi and Lidl as examples:
>
> Again, I have to say that in the UK people think of Aldi and Lidl as 
> supermarkets.  Cheaper, different brands, but in
> the same mental category as Tesco and Safeway.




The same in Poland.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 4:22 PM, marc marc 
wrote:

> Le 26. 06. 18 à 16:37, Paul Allen a écrit :
>
> > Ummm, so how do we map real wholesalers, who sell only to retailers and
> not
> > to the general public?
>
> maybe something like for=retailer
> like it exist for social_facility
>

Best idea I've seen so far.  OK, it's the only idea I've seen so far, but
it doesn't seem
obviously wrong (those with a far longer experience of mapping than I have
may come
up with many reasons it's a bad idea).

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[marc marc]

Le 26. 06. 18 à 16:37, Paul Allen a écrit :
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:55 PM, Bryan Housel wrote:
> 
> `shop=wholesale` is what people are using for stores like Costco and
> Sam’s Club:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dwholesale
> 
> Well spotted,  I didn't think to look for that.  Thanks.
> 
> Ummm, so how do we map real wholesalers, who sell only to retailers and not
> to the general public?


maybe something like for=retailer
like it exist for social_facility
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:55 PM, Bryan Housel  wrote:

`shop=wholesale` is what people are using for stores like Costco and Sam’s
> Club:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dwholesale
> 
>

Well spotted,  I didn't think to look for that.  Thanks.

Ummm, so how do we map real wholesalers, who sell only to retailers and not
to the general public?  It would be irritating to go out of your way to
visit a wholesaler
only to find it won't let you buy stuff because you're not a retailer.
Industrial=warehouse
isn't an exact match.  There isn't an access=retailer, and access=private
has been
used for membership access (which could be by virtue of being a retailer or
because
you're a member of the public who has paid a membership fee).

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Bryan Housel]

> Meanwhile, there probably is a need to tag a kind of store that is sometimes 
> referred to as a discount store.  I'm
> thinking of the likes of Costco or Sam's Club.  They're essentially 
> wholesalers operating on a cash and carry basis
> and which are open to the public, not just retailers (but you may need to pay 
> a membership fee).  Sometimes known

`shop=wholesale` is what people are using for stores like Costco and Sam’s Club:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dwholesale 


Thanks, Bryan

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> indeed Aldi is the first (at least in Europe) to operate this way. It is
> not unlikely the discount store description in wikipedia was influenced by
> Germans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_store
>
> and names Aldi and Lidl as examples:
>

Again, I have to say that in the UK people think of Aldi and Lidl as
supermarkets.  Cheaper, different brands, but in
the same mental category as Tesco and Safeway.

"Meanwhile, a "speciality", "single line" or "category killer
> " discount store/shop,
> such as Toys "R" Us  or
> Staples , may specialise in
> specific merchandise lines, relying on bulk purchase and efficient
> distribution to keep down costs.[1]
> “
>

I'd categorize Toys "R" Us as a toy store and Staples as an office supply
store.  As somebody else said in this
thread, we shouldn't be tagging shops differently because their prices are
lower.  People don't look up shops
selling at a discount and go there to buy something they didn't want; they
look up shops selling what they want
to buy and then compare prices.  "Today I want to buy something, ANYTHING,
at a discount but I can't decide
whether to go to Toys "R" Us or Staples."  Doesn't happen.  "Today I need
office supplies, do I go to the the
office supply shop a mile away or Staples 30 miles away?"  Does happen.  I
think it would be a big mistake to
tag Toys "R" Us and Staples as discount stores, no matter what Wikipedia
says.

Meanwhile, there probably is a need to tag a kind of store that is
sometimes referred to as a discount store.  I'm
thinking of the likes of Costco or Sam's Club.  They're essentially
wholesalers operating on a cash and carry basis
and which are open to the public, not just retailers (but you may need to
pay a membership fee).  Sometimes known
as "Retail Warehouses" and sometimes as "Cash and Carries" (but that
originally meant wholesale only, and
originally originally appears to have been a trademark of the specific
wholesaler who came up with the idea).  They sell
what supermarkets and convenience stores sell, but you buy in bulk.

So, if there is actually a need for this (which I'm sure some people will
dispute) do we repurpose shop=discount for
these or have something new?  Either way (if we do it at all), how do we
distinguish between wholesale-only, retail-only
and wholesale-and-retail?

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Philip Barnes]

On 26 June 2018 10:24:16 BST, Selfish Seahorse  
wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 11:01, Martin Koppenhoefer
> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry for writing again, but I believe this discussion shows that the
>term shop=discount is not self-explaining at all. It evokes different
>thoughts in different people / national contexts. In Germany, the term
>"discounter" is clearly defined, but it doesn't seem this is a
>statement that can be shared globally. As it isn't much used either, we
>should probably discourage the use all together.
>>
>> I have put a list of common names on these objects in the wiki, as it
>will help people familiar with the brands to understand what kind of
>shop was tagged:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddiscount
>> most used values are Poundland and Poundworld.
>
>Concluding from their names and websites, Poundland and Poundworld are
>variety stores, not discount stores. This list seem to confirm your
>observation that shop=discount may not be self-explanatory globally.
>
>Any objections if I retag Poundland and Poundworld stores as
>shop=variety_store?
>
No objection but one of them is on its way out of business so we will soon need 
to retag them as closed and survey what takes their place. 

I do get the two mixed up, they both seem the same to me, but saw the Meole 
Brace shop is closing and checking OSM it is Poundworld. 

Phil (trigpoint) 

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Selfish Seahorse <
selfishseaho...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Any objections if I retag Poundland and Poundworld stores as
> shop=variety_store?
>

That's how I would tag them if either of those chains had a presence in the
areas I've been mapping.  That's
how I've tagged similar types of shop.  I still don't like the value
"variety_store" but it's what we have for that
kind of store so Iuse it.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> exactly. Wholesale is a different story. Discount shops do not sell huge
> packings / wholesale confections with many boxes inside. They might sell
> slightly bigger packages (often made on purpose for them, not available in
> other supermarkets), like 1,75l  lemonade instead of 1/1,5l lemonade, or
> 500gr cornflakes instead of 375gr cornflakes, but you will not find 4000gr
> Cornflakes.
>

Hmm   I think this is another example of different countries,/different
terminologies.  What you just described there sounds
very much like my local Aldi, which most people here think of as a
supermarket, not a discounter.  A supermarket that is
cheaper than the other supermarkets, a supermarket that mostly sells
products that are made for them under brand names
that disguise the fact that the real brand is Aldi), but still a
supermarket.

Over in the US a discount store means something very different.  It is much
closer to being a wholesaler that sells to
the public.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Selfish Seahorse]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 11:01, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
> Sorry for writing again, but I believe this discussion shows that the term 
> shop=discount is not self-explaining at all. It evokes different thoughts in 
> different people / national contexts. In Germany, the term "discounter" is 
> clearly defined, but it doesn't seem this is a statement that can be shared 
> globally. As it isn't much used either, we should probably discourage the use 
> all together.
>
> I have put a list of common names on these objects in the wiki, as it will 
> help people familiar with the brands to understand what kind of shop was 
> tagged:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddiscount
> most used values are Poundland and Poundworld.

Concluding from their names and websites, Poundland and Poundworld are
variety stores, not discount stores. This list seem to confirm your
observation that shop=discount may not be self-explanatory globally.

Any objections if I retag Poundland and Poundworld stores as shop=variety_store?

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-26 11:00 GMT+02:00 Selfish Seahorse :

>
> As far as I know, prices are also low because discount stores
> typically sell own labels (no name products) instead of band products,
> because there's usually only one product per category instead of a
> dozen of it (e.g. only one kind of coffee, vanilla yoghurt or
> toothpaste)  because they sell only products with a high rotation
> (e.g. no fresh herbs, wholemeal flour or lactose-free products),
> because they sell products off pallets instead of putting them on
> shelves, because the shops are usually located at peripheries where
> rents are lower than in centres, because they attract customers with
> special offers (like smartphones at very low prices, but they only
> sell five of it) and/or because of parallel imports of brand products.



exactly. Wholesale is a different story. Discount shops do not sell huge
packings / wholesale confections with many boxes inside. They might sell
slightly bigger packages (often made on purpose for them, not available in
other supermarkets), like 1,75l  lemonade instead of 1/1,5l lemonade, or
500gr cornflakes instead of 375gr cornflakes, but you will not find 4000gr
Cornflakes.

Generally, small selection, simple presentation (besides pallets, they use
different shelves, e.g. shelves with 2 boards instead of 5-7 boards,
because they put boxes upon boxes in the shelves and sell out of the boxes,
rather than placing products in the shelves individually).

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Selfish Seahorse]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 00:50, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> Discount stores are, as I understand it (I don't have any remotely near me) 
> more of a cut-down wholesaler but open
> to the public.  Presentation and packaging is that of a wholesaler, and 
> savings come from buying in bulk. Depending on
> the particular retailer, product range may be primarily foodstuff 
> (overlapping with supermarkets and convenience stores)
> or might concentrate on things like office supplies.  When it's foodstuffs 
> you're not buying a consumer-size box of
> cornflakes but a very large carton of consumer-size boxes of cornflakes.

As far as I know, prices are also low because discount stores
typically sell own labels (no name products) instead of band products,
because there's usually only one product per category instead of a
dozen of it (e.g. only one kind of coffee, vanilla yoghurt or
toothpaste)  because they sell only products with a high rotation
(e.g. no fresh herbs, wholemeal flour or lactose-free products),
because they sell products off pallets instead of putting them on
shelves, because the shops are usually located at peripheries where
rents are lower than in centres, because they attract customers with
special offers (like smartphones at very low prices, but they only
sell five of it) and/or because of parallel imports of brand products.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Sorry for writing again, but I believe this discussion shows that the term
shop=discount is not self-explaining at all. It evokes different thoughts
in different people / national contexts. In Germany, the term "discounter"
is clearly defined, but it doesn't seem this is a statement that can be
shared globally. As it isn't much used either, we should probably
discourage the use all together.

I have put a list of common names on these objects in the wiki, as it will
help people familiar with the brands to understand what kind of shop was
tagged:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddiscount
most used values are Poundland and Poundworld.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-26 0:14 GMT+02:00 Graeme Fitzpatrick :

> shop=convenience is a smaller supermarket, usually with longer opening
> hours, but also more expensive than full size supermarkets.
>
>


I would like to point out that scale does matter. A puddle is not a small
lake. A lake is not a small ocean. A bush is not a small tree, 5 trees are
not a forest (besides in OSM), ecc.
A supermarket is defined as offering a big selection of stuff (as opposed
to a discounter / discount supermarket which only offers a very small
selection of basic products).
A supermarket also is presenting stuff in a certain way (e.g. see here, all
items cleanly set up in the shelves, no boxes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarket#/media/File:Fredmeyer_edit_1.jpg
as opposed to a discount supermarket, where whole boxes are placed in the
shelves:
https://www.aldi.us/fileadmin/fm-dam/Responsive_Design/New_to_ALDI/ALDI_NewToALDI_ShoppingAtALDI_InformationPage_316x284_Desktop_8.jpg


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-25 18:48 GMT+02:00 Tod Fitch :

> In my area convenience stores are relatively small with a limited choice
> of products with the defining feature being that they are open more hours
> than a typical store, often open 24x7.
>
> Usually the prices are higher at a convenience store, not lower.
>



convenience stores are always small, otherwise they are called supermarket.
discounters will not be open 24x7, usually they tend to have restrictive
opening hours to keep prices low.
Here's the self description of some (originally German) dicounter stores
and their leading principles:
https://www.aldi.us/en/new-to-aldi/shopping-at-aldi/
https://www.lidl.com/about-us

Other discount stores include:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netto_(store)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netto_Marken-Discount
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_(supermarket)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 08:50, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> Discount stores are, as I understand it (I don't have any remotely near
> me) more of a cut-down wholesaler but open
> to the public.  Presentation and packaging is that of a wholesaler, and
> savings come from buying in bulk. Depending on
> the particular retailer, product range may be primarily foodstuff
> (overlapping with supermarkets and convenience stores)
> or might concentrate on things like office supplies.  When it's foodstuffs
> you're not buying a consumer-size box of
> cornflakes but a very large carton of consumer-size boxes of cornflakes.
>

Fair call Paul. I wasn't thinking of the Costco style of shop where you
have to pay for membership, but can then literally buy a pallet of
whatever. I guess they're discount?


> Of course, there are probably stores that are a blend of the above.  I
> think we need a real-world mailing list so we can
> vote on how to make the real world conform to our tagging schemes.
>

That's it! From now on OSM will serve as the world's dictionary & you will
all use the words that we define! If you don't comply, we will wipe you off
the map! :-)
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 11:14 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> To my mind, =discount & =variety are exactly the same shops. While
> =variety has a full article, I'd personally think that they should both be
> called =discount.
>

To my mind they're different.  Although I wouldn't have chosen variety as
the value, that's what we have for what is
often referred to as a dollar store (west Atlantic) or pound shop (east
Atlantic).  They started off with a single price
point for a variety of cheap tat, now they have two or three price points
for the cheap tat and may also sell more expensive
tat too.  But they're not primarily food stores and may not have any food
items at all.  Trinkets and gizmos, for the most
part.  See, for example, my local variety shop: http://mikesshop.co.uk/
(the 1990s just called and asked for its web
design back).  Product range has little overlap with a supermarket or
convenience store.

Discount stores are, as I understand it (I don't have any remotely near me)
more of a cut-down wholesaler but open
to the public.  Presentation and packaging is that of a wholesaler, and
savings come from buying in bulk. Depending on
the particular retailer, product range may be primarily foodstuff
(overlapping with supermarkets and convenience stores)
or might concentrate on things like office supplies.  When it's foodstuffs
you're not buying a consumer-size box of
cornflakes but a very large carton of consumer-size boxes of cornflakes.

Of course, there are probably stores that are a blend of the above.  I
think we need a real-world mailing list so we can
vote on how to make the real world conform to our tagging schemes.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 02:49, Tod Fitch  wrote:

>
> So it is shop=convenience that is selling “from the pallet” and is likely
>> to be a cheaper?
>>
>
> In my area convenience stores are relatively small with a limited choice
> of products with the defining feature being that they are open more hours
> than a typical store, often open 24x7.
>
> Usually the prices are higher at a convenience store, not lower.
>

My view would be that "cheaper" supermarkets eg Aldi would still be a
shop=supermarket

shop=convenience is a smaller supermarket, usually with longer opening
hours, but also more expensive than full size supermarkets. They are the
proverbial "corner store". I think 7/11 is a worldwide example?

To my mind, =discount & =variety are exactly the same shops. While =variety
has a full article, I'd personally think that they should both be called
=discount.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Jmapb]

On 6/24/2018 2:08 PM, Selfish Seahorse wrote:

Hi

No, a discount shop isn't the same as a a variety shop. To cite Wikipedia [^1]:


A discount store or discount shop is a retail shop which sells products at 
prices that are lower than the typical market price.

[...]

Discount stores/shops are not variety stores, which sell goods at a single 
price-point or multiples thereof (£1, $2, etc.). Discount stores differ from 
variety stores in that they sell many name-brand products, and because of the 
wide price range of the items offered.

[^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_store

Regards
Markus


The idea that a "variety store" must sell at a single price point is 
oddly strict. In the USA we have many so-called "dollar stores" whose 
prices are not constrained in that way -- they're just typically lower 
that standard retail stores. Maybe 20 years ago they more-or-less stuck 
to dollar prices. Those days are long over, but they're still operated 
in the same spirit. (And even named that way -- Dollar Tree, Dollar 
General, Ninety-nine Cent Store -- but many items are priced in the 
$5-$10 range.)


Wikipedia even contradicts itself here -- the "discount store" article 
claims that a "variety store" only sells at a single price point, while 
the photo on the "variety store" page shows a so-called one-euro shop in 
Amsterdam pricing goods at 0.99€, 1.49€, 3.49€, etc.


Is there something other than the increasingly bygone single-price 
gimmick that we can use to discern between them? If not, I'd assert that 
"discount store" and "variety store" are synonyms. ("Wide range" and 
"many name-brand products" are pretty subjective.)


jmb

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Tod Fitch]

On June 25, 2018 8:12:33 AM PDT, Mateusz Konieczny  
wrote:
>
>
>
>24. Jun 2018 22:17 by dieterdre...@gmail.com
>:
>
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>>> On 24. Jun 2018, at 22:00, Mateusz Konieczny <>>
>matkoni...@tutanota.com >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> It sounds like any type of shop may have discount shop variation.
>>
>>
>> usually the term discount shop refers to shops selling food “from the
>pallet”, i.e. a smaller selection and less laborious presentation,
>tending to bigger packages, for a cheaper price.
>> Sometimes also with supposed inferior quality. Nowadays also
>typically sell occasionally selected non-food stuff according to the
>season (like tools, clothing, toys, even electronics like 1 laptop or 1
>phone), but usually only from 2-3 boxes, it does not take significant
>space.
>>
>
>
>
>
>So it is shop=convenience that is selling “from the pallet” and is
>likely to be a cheaper?

In my area convenience stores are relatively small with a limited choice of 
products with the defining feature being that they are open more hours than a 
typical store, often open 24x7.

Usually the prices are higher at a convenience store, not lower.



-- 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Mateusz Konieczny]

25. Jun 2018 17:32 by l...@tobias-wrede.de :


> > Am 25.06.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Mateusz  Konieczny:
> > 
>> 
>>   24. Jun 2018 22:17 by >> dieterdre...@gmail.com 
>> >> :
>>   
>>> sent from aphone
>>> 
 On 24. Jun 2018, at 22:00, Mateusz Konieczny < matkoni...@tutanota.com 
  >  wrote:
   
   It sounds like any type of shop may have discount shop  
 variation.
>>> 
>>> usually the term discount shop refers to shops selling food
>>> “from the pallet”, i.e. a smaller selection and less laborious
>>> presentation, tending to bigger packages, for a cheaper price.
>>> Sometimes also with supposed inferior quality. Nowadays also
>>> typically sell occasionally selected non-food stuff according tothe 
>>> season (like tools, clothing, toys, even electronics like 1laptop 
>>> or 1 phone), but usually only from 2-3 boxes, it does nottake 
>>> significant space.
>>>   
>>   
>>
>>   
>>   
>> So it is shop=convenience that is selling “from the pallet” andis 
>> likely to be a cheaper?
>>   
>>   
> 
> Reading shop=discount first the kind of shop sprang to my mind that
> sell all kinds of stuff in the range of 1-5€. Here they often havenames 
> like 1€ Store, 99c Store etc. 
> 
> Looking at usages on Overpass Turbo indeed many of the occurrencesare 
> that kind of stores (shop=variety?). But there are also a lot of
> supermarkets (Aldi etc) with this tag, as well as drug stores andhardware 
> stores it seems (I had to guess from the name where I didnot recognize 
> it). 
> 
> To me its obvious that the tag in its current usage is totally
> unusable as it does not denote at all what I can expect to buy inthe 
> store. Rather there could be a tag as discount=yes showing it'ssome kind 
> of discount store along the special shop=* tag.
> 
> So I'm perfectly fine with discouraging the use on the wiki page butI 
> would not simply call it a duplicate of shop=variety but refer tolikely 
> tags as shop=supermarket/convenience/variety.
> 
>




I attemped to improve description again - see

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ashop%3Ddiscount=revision=1622243=1622125
 


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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 25.06.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:


24. Jun 2018 22:17 by dieterdre...@gmail.com 
:


sent from a phone

On 24. Jun 2018, at 22:00, Mateusz Konieczny
mailto:matkoni...@tutanota.com>> wrote:

It sounds like any type of shop may have discount shop variation.


usually the term discount shop refers to shops selling food “from
the pallet”, i.e. a smaller selection and less laborious
presentation, tending to bigger packages, for a cheaper price.
Sometimes also with supposed inferior quality. Nowadays also
typically sell occasionally selected non-food stuff according to
the season (like tools, clothing, toys, even electronics like 1
laptop or 1 phone), but usually only from 2-3 boxes, it does not
take significant space.


So it is shop=convenience that is selling “from the pallet” and is 
likely to be a cheaper?




Reading shop=discount first the kind of shop sprang to my mind that sell 
all kinds of stuff in the range of 1-5€. Here they often have names like 
1€ Store, 99c Store etc.


Looking at usages on Overpass Turbo indeed many of the occurrences are 
that kind of stores (shop=variety?). But there are also a lot of 
supermarkets (Aldi etc) with this tag, as well as drug stores and 
hardware stores it seems (I had to guess from the name where I did not 
recognize it).


To me its obvious that the tag in its current usage is totally unusable 
as it does not denote at all what I can expect to buy in the store. 
Rather there could be a tag as discount=yes showing it's some kind of 
discount store along the special shop=* tag.


So I'm perfectly fine with discouraging the use on the wiki page but I 
would not simply call it a duplicate of shop=variety but refer to likely 
tags as shop=supermarket/convenience/variety.


Tobias

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[osm.tagging]

I remember about 20 years ago when I was still living in Germany I regularly 
went to a shop that was selling (mostly) food stuff "from the pallet", 
sometimes with slight transport damage (cans with dents, that type of thing).

That's what I would expect to find for a shop=discount


> -Original Message-
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
> Sent: Monday, 25 June 2018 06:17
> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] shop=discount
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> > On 24. Jun 2018, at 22:00, Mateusz Konieczny
>  wrote:
> >
> > It sounds like any type of shop may have discount shop variation.
> 
> 
> usually the term discount shop refers to shops selling food “from the
> pallet”, i.e. a smaller selection and less laborious presentation,
> tending to bigger packages, for a cheaper price.
> Sometimes also with supposed inferior quality. Nowadays also
> typically sell occasionally selected non-food stuff according to the
> season (like tools, clothing, toys, even electronics like 1 laptop or
> 1 phone), but usually only from 2-3 boxes, it does not take
> significant space.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Warin]

On 25/06/18 06:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 24. Jun 2018, at 22:00, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

It sounds like any type of shop may have discount shop variation.


usually the term discount shop refers to shops selling food “from the pallet”, 
i.e. a smaller selection and less laborious presentation, tending to bigger 
packages, for a cheaper price.
Sometimes also with supposed inferior quality. Nowadays also typically sell 
occasionally selected non-food stuff according to the season (like tools, 
clothing, toys, even electronics like 1 laptop or 1 phone), but usually only 
from 2-3 boxes, it does not take significant space.



That is a method of retailing. It could be applied to, say, a hardware store ..

I think it should be a sub tag ... retail:method=pallet/shelf/* ??

I don't think OSM should suggest that one store is 'cheaper' than another.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Jun 2018, at 22:00, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> It sounds like any type of shop may have discount shop variation.


usually the term discount shop refers to shops selling food “from the pallet”, 
i.e. a smaller selection and less laborious presentation, tending to bigger 
packages, for a cheaper price.
Sometimes also with supposed inferior quality. Nowadays also typically sell 
occasionally selected non-food stuff according to the season (like tools, 
clothing, toys, even electronics like 1 laptop or 1 phone), but usually only 
from 2-3 boxes, it does not take significant space.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Mateusz Konieczny]

24. Jun 2018 20:08 by selfishseaho...@gmail.com 
:


> Hi
>
> No, a discount shop isn't the same as a a variety shop. To cite Wikipedia 
> [^1]:
>
>> A discount store or discount shop is a retail shop which sells products at 
>> prices that are lower than the typical market price.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Discount stores/shops are not variety stores, which sell goods at a single 
>> price-point or multiples thereof (£1, $2, etc.). Discount stores differ from 
>> variety stores in that they sell many name-brand products, and because of 
>> the wide price range of the items offered.




It sounds like any type of shop may have discount shop variation.




So shop=discount may be a convenience discount shop or doityourself discount 
shop 


or medical supply discount shop...

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-24 20:08 GMT+02:00 Selfish Seahorse :

> Hi
>
> No, a discount shop isn't the same as a a variety shop.
>


+1, it could be seen as a variant of small supermarket or convenience
store. I have also asked myself in the past if we make these a new kind of
shop or add a discounter=yes flag or something similar.
Currently they are tagged as supermarkets.

It is usually clear for the "natives" which brand names relate to discount
stores, but the distinction might be interesting for tourists. I believe
there is some difference compared to supermarkets, which could be reflected
somehow in the tagging, but maybe it is so subtle that a main tag would be
overkill? A flag makes it easy for dataconsumers that are unaware or less
interested in this distinction, to ignore it, without delivering completely
wrong results.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Peter Elderson]

I would call both "dumps".

2018-06-24 20:08 GMT+02:00 Selfish Seahorse :

> Hi
>
> No, a discount shop isn't the same as a a variety shop. To cite Wikipedia
> [^1]:
>
> > A discount store or discount shop is a retail shop which sells products
> at prices that are lower than the typical market price.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Discount stores/shops are not variety stores, which sell goods at a
> single price-point or multiples thereof (£1, $2, etc.). Discount stores
> differ from variety stores in that they sell many name-brand products, and
> because of the wide price range of the items offered.
>
> [^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_store
>
> Regards
> Markus
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 11:17, Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
> >
> > I described it on
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddiscount
> > as a clear duplicate of more popular shop=variety_store
> >
> > See
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:
> shop%3Ddiscount=1621726=1340500
> > for my edit.
> >
> > I am posting here to check whatever I missed something.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Selfish Seahorse]

Hi

No, a discount shop isn't the same as a a variety shop. To cite Wikipedia [^1]:

> A discount store or discount shop is a retail shop which sells products at 
> prices that are lower than the typical market price.
>
> [...]
>
> Discount stores/shops are not variety stores, which sell goods at a single 
> price-point or multiples thereof (£1, $2, etc.). Discount stores differ from 
> variety stores in that they sell many name-brand products, and because of the 
> wide price range of the items offered.

[^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_store

Regards
Markus
On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 11:17, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
> I described it on
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddiscount
> as a clear duplicate of more popular shop=variety_store
>
> See
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Ddiscount=1621726=1340500
> for my edit.
>
> I am posting here to check whatever I missed something.
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