Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Why not record the URL of the store in website=*? That way people can visit the store's website and see for themselves what they sell. The benefit of this is that if the shop alters their range of goods you don't need to alter the tags. The store will update their website. So, all you need is a top-level generic tag (shop=bakery, meaning general baked goods store). Personally, I think generic tags are perfectly sufficient. If I visit an unfamiliar town, and I am looking for a certain item, such as artisanal bread baked by unicorns, I am quite happy to see a list of half a dozen potential places in OSM (maybe all tagged shop=bakery) and then explore them myself to find out which one is best for what I want. Furthermore, when I am tagging I don't want to agonise over which of 100 tags is appropriate. This is the key to map making- knowing what to omit. Best wishes, Andrew On 7 June 2013 14:42, Johan Jönsson joha...@goteborg.cc wrote: Michael Krämer ohrosm@... writes: ..snip.. Basically I think we're on the same page: To my understanding we agree that there's a need to differentiate between the different kinds of baked goods. So the problem is how to classify and name these. But as pretty often I guess that's where trouble starts. ..snip.. Murry McEntire murry.mcentire@... writes: ..snip.. 1) Pastries should definitely not be listed as a product of shop=confectionery.2) A more correct definition for shop=bakery is selling cakes, pastries, pies and bread -- or tongue in cheek: selling cakes, pastries, pies and sometimes bread, but rarely bread alone ..snip.. Murry It looks too me that both american Murry and german Michael have found that a breadselling shop is different from a pastry-selling shop. So why not do as the Original Poster, Martin, wrote and distinguish these two. (The discussed problem seem to be that bread-shop is bäckerei in german and that pastry-shop is bakery in english, similar name for different things) We might even need to go so far to consider to abandon shop=bakery and use shop=bread and shop=pastry instead. p.s. Shop=bakery and shop=butcher where the first shop-values, when the shop-key broke out from amenity-key. These two really are old entities that have been with us in our culture for a long time and kind of demands to be tagged. d.s. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
2013/6/7 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com Why not record the URL of the store in website=*? That way people can visit the store's website and see for themselves what they sell. of course you do this IF they have a website (traditional smaller ones usually won't have a website I guess, not even in 2013), but this isn't an alternative to setting a class. If you wanted to see how many bakeries (that sell bread, not exclusively cakes) are in Germany, with your system you needed months to check ;-) Thought your argument to the extreme, you would only tag website=* and poi=yes ;-) cheers, Martin -- Martin Koppenhoefer (Dipl-Ing. Arch.) Via del Santuario Regina degli Apostoli, 18 00145 Roma |I|I|I|I|I|I|I|I| Italia N41.851, E12.4824 tel1: +39 06.916508070 tel2: +49 30 868708638 mobil: +39 392 3114712 mobil: +49 1577 7793740 m...@koppenhoefer.com http://www.koppenhoefer.com Hinweis: Diese Nachricht wurde manuell erstellt. Wir bemühen uns um fehlerfreie Korrespondenz, dennoch kann es in Ausnahmefällen vorkommen, dass bei der manuellen Übertragung von Informationen in elektronische Medien die übertragenen Informationen Fehler aufweisen. Wir bitten Sie, dies zu entschuldigen. Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of koppenhoefer.com unless specifically stated. This email and any files attached are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@koppenhoefer.com Please note that to ensure regulatory compliance and for the protection of our clients and business, we may monitor and read messages sent to and from our systems. Thank You. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 17:42:32 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2013/6/7 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com Why not record the URL of the store in website=*? That way people can visit the store's website and see for themselves what they sell. of course you do this IF they have a website (traditional smaller ones usually won't have a website I guess, not even in 2013), but this isn't an alternative to setting a class. If you wanted to see how many bakeries (that sell bread, not exclusively cakes) are in Germany, with your system you needed months to check ;-) I only need to check the ones that are within 500m of my hotel. :) Thought your argument to the extreme, you would only tag website=* and poi=yes ;-) You know, I've been thinking that might be a possibility. Allow a website owner to hold his or her own tags. The tags could be held in a file on the website in much the same way as robots.txt or an RSS feed, or a vcard file, and the store/facility/whetever has an object (node or area) in OSM with the URL. A program periodically extracts objects from the OSM database and fetches the tags from the store's website. Tags are added, modified or deleted appropriately. I suppose we could do something similar to this now, if the store's URL is in the OSM database we could try to extract things like phone number and address by querying the webpage, after all, it's all machine readable. If we can't trust it to be completely automatic the results could be passed to a human for verification. While I am on this flight of fancy, how about Update POI by email? Send an email to an OSM address containing the object ID and a list of tags. A program at OSM receives the email, checks the sender's ID against the database of OSM users, and updates the tags based on the contents of the email. If the message can not be parsed or it contains any errors then it is all discarded and the sender notified. Best wishes, Andrew ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] When was landuse=reservoir deprecated ?
2013/6/6 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com Last but not least my question still remains. Why was it just set to abandoned without any prior discussion on this list ? Interestingly this seems to be a case of fiddling by admin, as the user setting this to abandoned is a wiki admin according to his wiki user page. FYI, I reset the tag to Approved, as a 260362 uses tag can hardly be called abandoned without any discussion. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
2013/6/7 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com While I am on this flight of fancy, how about Update POI by email? some time ago there was a proposal to update POI by twitter IIRR, maybe that service is still active? cheers, Martin -- Martin Koppenhoefer (Dipl-Ing. Arch.) Via del Santuario Regina degli Apostoli, 18 00145 Roma |I|I|I|I|I|I|I|I| Italia N41.851, E12.4824 tel1: +39 06.916508070 tel2: +49 30 868708638 mobil: +39 392 3114712 mobil: +49 1577 7793740 m...@koppenhoefer.com http://www.koppenhoefer.com Hinweis: Diese Nachricht wurde manuell erstellt. Wir bemühen uns um fehlerfreie Korrespondenz, dennoch kann es in Ausnahmefällen vorkommen, dass bei der manuellen Übertragung von Informationen in elektronische Medien die übertragenen Informationen Fehler aufweisen. Wir bitten Sie, dies zu entschuldigen. Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of koppenhoefer.com unless specifically stated. This email and any files attached are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@koppenhoefer.com Please note that to ensure regulatory compliance and for the protection of our clients and business, we may monitor and read messages sent to and from our systems. Thank You. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] When was landuse=reservoir deprecated ?
2013/6/7 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 2013/6/6 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com Last but not least my question still remains. Why was it just set to abandoned without any prior discussion on this list ? Interestingly this seems to be a case of fiddling by admin, as the user setting this to abandoned is a wiki admin according to his wiki user page. FYI, I reset the tag to Approved, as a 260362 uses tag can hardly be called abandoned without any discussion. please excuse me, no fiddling by admin, as the user wasn't yet wiki admin when he performed the disputed edit. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] When was landuse=reservoir deprecated ?
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com writes: 2013/6/6 Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com We have gotten several notes reported from craigslist users saying this lake is missing from the map but I think it turns out that craigslist is not rendering landuse=reservoir so unless lakes have natural=water they don't show up on the CL maps. Just another rendering oddity I guess. If you agree that landuse=reservoir doesn't necessarily need to be water on the whole area, then it seems logical to require a water-tag on the actual water covered area to render blue. As long as the main style puts so much emphasis on landuse people will continue to map areas mainly with landuse and use very less frequent the physical tags which are not rendered. This essentially was the point I was trying to make: when humans see landuse=reservoir, they think it means different things 1) parcel containing protection zone and water, arguably to be shaded some light green natural/protected. should have water=reservoir on the actual water, to be blue 2) what is water=reservoir in 1, and thus should be blue That's why I suggested landuse=reservoir_protection instead, but that should include the water so it's not right etiher. I'm fine with landuse=reservoir, but then as always it needs to be clear and renderers need to catch up. pgpcn4owKdZ11.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] When was landuse=reservoir deprecated ?
I want to call a few facts in mind: - We have an old attribute landuse = reservoir. This is very much in use. - We have a proposal Water detail. This was approved in voting by a large majority. This proposal includes: waterway=riverbank (replaced by natural=water + water=river) landuse=reservoir (replaced by natural=water + water=reservoir) landuse=pond (replaced by natural=water + water=pond) and: Until all renderers (which render those areas differently from natural=water) support those new values, both schemes can be used together: just add natural=water and water=* to already present tags. Deprecates means is equivalent for all purposes to. For example, landuse=reservoir should be rendered exactly like natural=water + water=reservoir. There are too many uses of the current tagging scheme, and we don't want massive retagging and edit wars. Many users have decided together for this new approach. This result should be respected by all of us. Finally, it was at that time already been discussed extensively over the content. Why do we resist again bring this discussion now? The proposal is unique and clearly understandable. The desire of the community should follow, and document decisions made in the wiki accordingly. This also means that there is a successor to landuse=reservoir. My assumption was that you know the decision of the community. Apparently this is not so, otherwise this discussion would not be necessary. Sincerely yours René Thanks to Google Translate for the translation of my German contribution. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] When was landuse=reservoir deprecated ?
On 06.06.2013 23:55, fly wrote: We should use both landuse and water. The first for the whole area and the later for the water area. [...] Better use boolean (e.g. intermittent=yes/no). Maybe editors should warn or silently change these tags. Last but not least my question still remains. Why was it just set to abandoned without any prior discussion on this list ? Because the Water details proposal¹ included the deprecation. It was even mentioned on this list that the proposal included deprecation - although learning which tags exactly were proposed for deprecation required clicking the wiki link iirc. Still, the deprecations should not be as a surprise to anybody participating here. The proposal also notes that water=reservoir is supposed to be synonymous to landuse=reservoir, which directly contradicts the interpretation brought forward here. Using intermittent=yes/no seems sensible, though - and it was also mentioned in the Water details proposal. Tobias ¹ http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Water_details ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
If you look at my entire message, I did point out that vertical clearance was an attribute of the ways, not the bridge. How should the vertical clearance from the bridge to the water be tagged, and how do you tag what height of water was the reference point? If the water level is high, there will be less room for watercraft to pass under the bridge. Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: On 06/giu/2013, at 23:55, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: the maximum clearance for vehicles passing under the bridge. The proposal mentions the first two, but not the third. in osm this is an attribute on the way(s) under the bridge, not of the bridge itself cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] When was landuse=reservoir deprecated ?
Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de writes: Because the Water details proposal¹ included the deprecation. It was even mentioned on this list that the proposal included deprecation - although learning which tags exactly were proposed for deprecation required clicking the wiki link iirc. Still, the deprecations should not be as a surprise to anybody participating here. The proposal also notes that water=reservoir is supposed to be synonymous to landuse=reservoir, which directly contradicts the interpretation brought forward here. Trying to not worry too much about the past, two things are clear: A) there is much confusion over what landuse=reservoir means or should mean B) there is no documented landuse tagging to describe a parcel that contains a (land) buffer and water that is a reservoir. So what landuse is appropriate for the parcel? pgp80ZpQNIqAd.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] When was landuse=reservoir deprecated ?
Am 07.06.2013 16:20, schrieb René Kirchhoff: I want to call a few facts in mind: - We have an old attribute landuse = reservoir. This is very much in use. - We have a proposal Water detail. This was approved in voting by a large majority. 16:3 is a poor result for voting activity This proposal includes: waterway=riverbank (replaced by natural=water + water=river) landuse=reservoir (replaced by natural=water + water=reservoir) landuse=pond (replaced by natural=water + water=pond) and: Until all renderers (which render those areas differently from natural=water) support those new values, both schemes can be used together: just add natural=water and water=* to already present tags. Deprecates means is equivalent for all purposes to. For example, landuse=reservoir should be rendered exactly like natural=water + water=reservoir. There are too many uses of the current tagging scheme, and we don't want massive retagging and edit wars. Many users have decided together for this new approach. This result should be respected by all of us. Finally, it was at that time already been discussed extensively over the content. That is not what taginfo presents. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=water#values Why do we resist again bring this discussion now? The proposal is unique and clearly understandable. The desire of the community should follow, and document decisions made in the wiki accordingly. This also means that there is a successor to landuse=reservoir. There where unanswered questions on this list and no real discussion. I only find: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.tagging/7247/focus=7309 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.tagging/8547/focus=8556 Can someone please show me the conclusion on this list as I do not find it. My assumption was that you know the decision of the community. Apparently this is not so, otherwise this discussion would not be necessary. That is exactly the point. What is the community for you. I would always discuss these major edits prior on this list. The numbers on taginfo lead to a different view: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landuse=reservoir http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/water=reservoir it is still 27:1 towards landuse=reservoir Once we get to a decision we need to change the wiki and also inform the developer of the editors as I only stumbled over this issue cause of: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/8759 cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] When was landuse=reservoir deprecated ?
Am 07.06.2013 15:11, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2013/6/7 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com 2013/6/6 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com mailto:lowfligh...@googlemail.com Last but not least my question still remains. Why was it just set to abandoned without any prior discussion on this list ? Interestingly this seems to be a case of fiddling by admin, as the user setting this to abandoned is a wiki admin according to his wiki user page. FYI, I reset the tag to Approved, as a 260362 uses tag can hardly be called abandoned without any discussion. please excuse me, no fiddling by admin, as the user wasn't yet wiki admin when he performed the disputed edit. Still he is admin now and I won`t accept these kind of changes even made by a normal user. Do not get me wrong I did mail him a private message asking to revert his changes but the answer was not really acceptable and made me angry so I started this discussion. Frederik did change the page in the mean time and he did start to participate in this discussion. Well, let's get a solution, finally. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Animal_breeding
I remember you that the voting of this proposal is under way and will end on 2013-06-15: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Animal_breeding Please express your opinion, so we can finally end the procedure and create a definitive wiki page. Thank you Alberto ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Animal_breeding
Am 07.06.2013 19:24, schrieb Alberto: I remember you that the voting of this proposal is under way and will end on 2013-06-15: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Animal_breeding Please express your opinion, so we can finally end the procedure and create a definitive wiki page. What your are talking about are genus not species see: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:genus http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:species You can also link to: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:taxon Landuse=grass seems to be to general better use meadow. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Note: I'm using on-line translation dictionaries. Please correct or clarify any non-English word misuse. I have tried to learn other languages, but find I am not adept at language skills. I know dictionaries can be misleading or wrong from experience. Years ago I ate in a Munich restaurant where the menus did not have translations and was the only place I encountered while in Germany where none of the staff spoke English. Fortunately the menu had pictures so I pointed at my main course then tried to order a soda pop. I tried three terms from my guidebook and none were understood. A couple dining at the restaurant that spoke a tiny bit of English tried to help and I ended up with tonic water. Ugh. (The main course was delicious.) I was informed later by a German associate that any of the terms would have worked in Berlin, but the guidebook had used regional terms that were a poor choice for Germany as a whole. A summary as I understand it: We currently have English labels and definitions used for tags for bakery and confectionery that have language translation mismatches, especially based on common usage of the words. English cultures are comfortable using one term for shops of any type bakery goods (bakery), but continental Europeans are not. There may be regulatory reasons in Europe for not grouping them as a whole. Some specifics: The English definitions for the tags are misleading or wrong. Defining a bakery as sells bread is highly misleading. It is more likely to be understood by common usage as a cake or pastry shop. Listing pastry as a product of a confectionery is wrong as the term means candy or chocolates shop. Pastries are bakery goods. backeri, boulangerie are linked to bakery, when a much more appropriate choice would have been bread shop. kondertorei, feinbakdere, patisserie, viennoiseries may be linked to confectionery when the most accurate choice would have been bakery, English usage, common meanings and problems with technical/translation definitions: Americans first look to bakery (in directories, legends, web searches, ...) for any type of bakery product. It appears the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia do the same (or for bakers). Americans then may look for sub classes such as bread, cakes, pastry. Americans commonly refer to bread shops, as in I'm going to the bread store, but often call them bakeries. Americans have understanding of cake shop, pastry shop, pie shop; but often reference them by the more general I'm going to the bakeryAmericans have no commonly used term for shops that sell all types of non-bread bakery goods other than bakery. Cakes and pastries are generally thought to be different things (perhaps because one is made with batter and one with pastry (literally paste) dough), but some (nations) see pastries as a subset of cakes and other see cakes as a subset of pastries. Pastry to Americans means sweet bakery items made primarily from pastry dough. Secondary meanings can include pies, tarts and quiches, or meat pies. Items made from batters or various bread doughs are generally not considered pastries Although some of the translation dictionaries linked non-English terms for pastry to confectionery, this is an esoteric linking and should not be used. The translation definition I received for konditorei was cake shop, confectioners shop, the second of which is wrong unless konitorei commonly specialize in zuckeri and konfekt. I do not believe they do? Since the translation dictionaries lacked specifics, I'm assuming feinbackerei, konditorei and patisserie can be interpreted as selling most kinds of non-bread bakery goods. Not so sure about viennoiseries which may be pastries only. A new proposed solution considering the most appropriate English definitions and the needs of both groups. A new category shop=bread be created. backerie, boulangerie should be linked to this shop. The English definition: a shop that specializes in selling breads. See also shop=bakery. Question: would a nationality cuisine sub tag be useful enough to mention for use? The category shop=bakery be retained; konditorei, feinbackerei, patisserie should be linked to this shop. It should also be used where both bread and non-bread bakery products sales are important, and when the specific baked good sold is unknown. A sub tag cuisine=nationality could be used but is optional and should only be used if the nationality differs from that of the location. The English definition: a shop that sells bakery goods such as cakes, pastries, pies, and bread. See also shop=bread. I would prefer not to define any other type of bakery goods shop, but I'll let the continental Europeans tell me if there is a need. Understand that if shop=pastry is added it would be defined to sell pastries (and perhaps pies or tarts) and point to the wikipedia page for pastries, so would not sell cakes, cookies or other bakery goods. If you need a distinct shop for all non-bread bakery goods; tagging with
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
* Murry McEntire murry.mcent...@gmail.com [130607 20:15]: [..] A summary as I understand it: We currently have English labels and definitions used for tags for bakery and confectionery that have language translation mismatches, especially based on common usage of the words. English cultures are comfortable using one term for shops of any type bakery goods (bakery), but continental Europeans are not. There may be regulatory reasons in Europe for not grouping them as a whole. To broaden the perspective a bit: All arabic countries that I have travelled to so far have the following kinds of shop: - shops that sell bread, often made on premises, and in a few cases also cookies and very simple kinds of pastry (basically sweet bread). If signs in english are used, these shops are signed as bakery - shops that sell sweets but no cake, cookies or pastry - small restaurants that offer (sweet) pastry, to eat in or take out, but nothing else (they never offer coffee or tea, so I wouldn't call them cafe) - places that sell cakes and cookies (mostly takeout, no coffee etc.) - places that sell coffee and tea, but usually no food. If there are signs in english, they usually read cafe or coffee shop So, my conclusion here is that in the arabic world I would expect a bakery to be a place selling mostly or only bread. Wolfgang ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
This sounds like a reasonable compromise. Incidentally, I am an American and would not classify pastries and confections as the same thing, although one shop will sometimes sell both. I would tend to think of a bread shop as a shop that sells bread, and perhaps other baked goods, but does not do its own baking. Typically, these shops sell goods originating from a single industrial-scale bakery, and which have been returned by grocery stores after they did not sell, but which are still in good condition. Murry McEntire murry.mcent...@gmail.com wrote: Note: I'm using on-line translation dictionaries. Please correct or clarify any non-English word misuse. I have tried to learn other languages, but find I am not adept at language skills. I know dictionaries can be misleading or wrong from experience. Years ago I ate in a Munich restaurant where the menus did not have translations and was the only place I encountered while in Germany where none of the staff spoke English. Fortunately the menu had pictures so I pointed at my main course then tried to order a soda pop. I tried three terms from my guidebook and none were understood. A couple dining at the restaurant that spoke a tiny bit of English tried to help and I ended up with tonic water. Ugh. (The main course was delicious.) I was informed later by a German associate that any of the terms would have worked in Berlin, but the guidebook had used regional terms that were a poor choice for Germany as a whole. A summary as I understand it: We currently have English labels and definitions used for tags for bakery and confectionery that have language translation mismatches, especially based on common usage of the words. English cultures are comfortable using one term for shops of any type bakery goods (bakery), but continental Europeans are not. There may be regulatory reasons in Europe for not grouping them as a whole. Some specifics: The English definitions for the tags are misleading or wrong. Defining a bakery as sells bread is highly misleading. It is more likely to be understood by common usage as a cake or pastry shop. Listing pastry as a product of a confectionery is wrong as the term means candy or chocolates shop. Pastries are bakery goods. backeri, boulangerie are linked to bakery, when a much more appropriate choice would have been bread shop. kondertorei, feinbakdere, patisserie, viennoiseries may be linked to confectionery when the most accurate choice would have been bakery, English usage, common meanings and problems with technical/translation definitions: Americans first look to bakery (in directories, legends, web searches, ...) for any type of bakery product. It appears the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia do the same (or for bakers). Americans then may look for sub classes such as bread, cakes, pastry. Americans commonly refer to bread shops, as in I'm going to the bread store, but often call them bakeries. Americans have understanding of cake shop, pastry shop, pie shop; but often reference them by the more general I'm going to the bakeryAmericans have no commonly used term for shops that sell all types of non-bread bakery goods other than bakery. Cakes and pastries are generally thought to be different things (perhaps because one is made with batter and one with pastry (literally paste) dough), but some (nations) see pastries as a subset of cakes and other see cakes as a subset of pastries. Pastry to Americans means sweet bakery items made primarily from pastry dough. Secondary meanings can include pies, tarts and quiches, or meat pies. Items made from batters or various bread doughs are generally not considered pastries Although some of the translation dictionaries linked non-English terms for pastry to confectionery, this is an esoteric linking and should not be used. The translation definition I received for konditorei was cake shop, confectioners shop, the second of which is wrong unless konitorei commonly specialize in zuckeri and konfekt. I do not believe they do? Since the translation dictionaries lacked specifics, I'm assuming feinbackerei, konditorei and patisserie can be interpreted as selling most kinds of non-bread bakery goods. Not so sure about viennoiseries which may be pastries only. A new proposed solution considering the most appropriate English definitions and the needs of both groups. A new category shop=bread be created. backerie, boulangerie should be linked to this shop. The English definition: a shop that specializes in selling breads. See also shop=bakery. Question: would a nationality cuisine sub tag be useful enough to mention for use? The category shop=bakery be retained; konditorei, feinbackerei, patisserie should be linked to this shop. It should also be used where both bread and non-bread bakery products sales are important, and when the specific baked good sold is unknown. A sub tag cuisine=nationality could be used but is optional and should only be used if the nationality
Re: [Tagging] Bridges redux
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:42 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.comwrote: I am also a programmer, and agree that it would make sense to have a movable tag with a value of yes or no, in addition to the finer-grained bridge=type tag. If we were dealing with a database with all bridge types required to be in a lookup table, then it would make sense to have the bridge type table determine whether or not the bridge was movable. However, since we are dealing with a database where users can add new bridge types at any time, or may not know which technical term to use for the bridge type, having a separate movable=yes tag makes more sense. Complexities everywhere! A pretty darn common type of bridge is a movable bridge that does not move. e.g. a former bascule or swing bridge that is now fixed open or closed. Or put another way: something people will expect to see as a drawbridge in rendering, but should not be movable for routing purposes. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Wolfgang Zenker wolfgang@... writes: * Murry McEntire murry.mcentire@... [130607 20:15]: [..] A summary as I understand it: We currently have English labels and definitions used for tags for bakery and confectionery that have language translation mismatches, especially based on common usage of the words. ... English cultures are comfortable using one term for shops of any type bakery goods (bakery), but continental Europeans are not. There may be regulatory reasons in Europe for not grouping them as a whole. ... A new proposed solution considering the most appropriate English definitions and the needs of both groups. A new category shop=bread be created... The English definition: a shop that specializes in selling breads. The category shop=bakery be retained; ... It should be used where both bread and non-bread bakery products sales are important, and when the specific baked good sold is unknown. All arabic countries that I have travelled to so far have the following kinds of shop: - shops that sell bread, often made on premises, and in a few cases also cookies and very simple kinds of pastry (basically sweet bread). If signs in english are used, these shops are signed as bakery --shop=bread, bread=yes, pastry=yes, (craft=bread_baker?) name:en=Ishtmar Bakery - shops that sell sweets but no cake, cookies or pastry --shop=confectionary - small restaurants that offer (sweet) pastry, to eat in or take out, but nothing else --amenity=restaurant, (selling=bread?) (craft=pastry_baker?) - places that sell cakes and cookies (mostly takeout, no coffee etc.) --shop=bakery, cake=yes, cookie=yes - places that sell coffee and tea, but usually no food. If there are signs in english, they usually read cafe or coffee shop --amenity=café, name=Ishtmar Café So, my conclusion here is that in the arabic world I would expect a bakery to be a place selling mostly or only bread. Wolfgang A great contribution by Murry! If we want to have two different shop-values to separate bakeries that mostly sell bread from the other kinds of bakeries and still want to use words by their english meaning; It seems that Murrys way is the way to go! (If we want only one value, then bakery is good for both, that is consistent with the english language) So I want to point out that it really isn´t an option to use bakery only for breadselling shops, even though it might be closer to the words origin (when you had to go to the baker to get bread) it is not how it is used in the english language today (as Murry have explained). (I would myself, as would many other foreigners assume that bakery mainly was about bread, but that is not the point) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
A look at the English language business directory for Cairo Egypt shows two categories related to the discussion: Bakery Pastry Shops and Candy and Confectionery. They do not do sub categories, but allow the businesses to select keywords. Listings are few, so should not be considered a good sample. Businesses that focus on bread choose both bakery and bread as keywords. Bakery goods businesses that do not feature bread choose bakery and one or more of cake, cupcake, pastry, western dessert, muffin, and other keywords. Businesses that feature both bread and other baked goods use bakery in combination with other keywords. Businesses that sell bakery goods, candy, chocolates and ice_cream choose bakery as one of many key words. Web searches for Cairo bakeries and similar searches provide a lot more examples. Such results are similar to the business directory. A business using bakery in their web presence sells some sort of baked good, but not necessarily bread. The business directories and web presence, especially in English, are not representative of the many bazaar stalls and smaller shops. However the results above mesh with my experience on a trip to Cairo and Luxor. When speaking, a bread store was called a bakery, but the term was also used for bakeries that did not sell bread. In the most heavily tourist areas, English signs saying bakery were used for any kind of baked good. Most shops were not bread shops, but that would be expected for a tourist area. Outside the most heavily tourist areas, bread, non-bread, and combination shops are common. The shops I saw that did have English signs seemed to prefer to identify the products sold, e.g, bread, cakes, pastries, sweets to calling themselves a bakery. No idea how many of the shops I saw handled subsidized bread. I did not travel in any area where tourists would be a rarity. Extrapolating, an English speaking Egyptian would be comfortable calling shops selling any kind of baked good a bakery. They would first call a shop selling bread a bakery, but would (commonly) know what shop=bread meant. Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
