Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
What if the street sign said: St Francis St. would you be putting that exactly as is in the name tag? I would put Saint Francis Street in it. What if there are 3 signs, one with St Francis St. Saintt Francis St. St Francis Street It may be a longer street, it may be that time passed by between when those signs were placed. But this does happen. Are you reatlly going to put name=St Francis St./Saintt Francis St./St Francis Street to cover all your bases? It's exactly the same situation. You're allowed to use some amount of your brain power to get from what you find on the signs before adding the contents to OSM. Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 01:05 schreef Paul Allen : > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:38 PM, Jo wrote: > >> Fortunately all streets in Brussels are already mapped, based on official >> data from Urbis. So the person from Biel who would prefer to put / in those >> names doesn't need to to so anymore. >> >> There are definitely street name signs which are wrong. It would be >> absurd to copy that wrong text into the name tags. It's not so wrong that >> is something completely different. >> >> Besides many street name signs in Brussels are like this: >> >> Avenue >> Simon Bolivar >> laan >> >> Even if that is a spelling error in itself. >> name=Avenue Simon Bolivar - Simon Bolivarlaan >> name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan >> >> words glue together in Dutch, like they do in German. >> > > Given that situation I'd say the best way to map it is: > > name=Avenue Simon Bolivar Laan > name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan > name:fr=Avenue Simon Bolivar > > Anyway, we don't want to put exactly what is on the street name signs in >> our name tags. >> > > Why not? It's what is on the sign. If that is what is on the sign then > that is what is ought to be mapped. Or maybe > I should change roads into rivers because I prefer rivers and I don't want > to map exactly what is on the ground. > > >> It's simply not practical >> > > Why? String length isn't a data problem unless the string exceeds some > arbitrary length allocated in the > database schema. It takes me a lot less time to type a long bilingual > name for a highway than to trace the > highway itself. > > >> and it would very quickly become nonsensical. >> > > If "name=Avenue Simon Bolivar Laan" is nonsensical then the street sign is > nonsensical. Complain to your > local elected representative and ask him/her for legislation to change the > naming conventions of street signs. > > I find it hard to understand why some mappers do not want to map reality. > Unless it's because they wish the street > signs were really monolingual. There are people where I live who object > to any use of English, should I cater to > their whims by amending all names around here to remove the English text > or should I map what is there? > > -- > Paul > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 4:23 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > On 10. Aug 2018, at 15:29, Paul Allen wrote: > > > > 1) It is said to be standard practice to render what is observable on > the ground. > > > everybody can render what she deems most useful, there is not an absolute > rule to render what is on the ground (e.g. if there is a typo on a sign, > you must not put that into ‘name’ if you know and have confirmed it is a > typo. It could be useful to map the signed name as well, but I wouldn’t use > the key “name” for it, as that is for the name) > You appear to be saying that the name of the street (as on the sign) is not the name of the street (as in the name=* tag applying to the street). This appears to be a post-modernist interpretation of "name." What else would the name=* tag, when applied to a way, be the name of? What is the wording on the street sign except the name of the street? > > I don't need to know which languages are spoken in this region, or what > language(s) the sign is in, that is what the > > sign SAYS and that is what should be mapped (in my opinion). > > thing is, you might want to know in which language the sign is, and there > is currently no way to find out from our data. If you don’t want to know, > you are already served ;-) > A mapper who doesn't speak English or Welsh (but is familiar with the Roman alphabet) could, nonetheless, put the words "Heol Napier Napier Street" into the name=* tag for the way. This is a straightforward mapping (both senses of the word) and matches observable reality. Yes, it would be nice if they also added "name:cy=Heol Napier" and "name:en=Napier Street" but that can come later, if at all. Adding the language tagging is of *secondary* importance, a refinement which is nice but not essential. Yes, the situation is somewhat different when the street has a name but there is no signage and different arguments can be made. And things get really complicated when there is an official name, a local name, but no signage. But when there is a street sign name=* should be used for what is on the sign because anything else is perverse. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
y boundary of >> Biel/Bienne). However, the renderers would then have to take these >> relations into account. >> >> Cheers >> Markus >> >> On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 at 13:25, Marc Gemis wrote: >>> >>> ] >>>>> p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up. >>>> >>>> That can be a sign that something is amiss. >>> >>> the previous times it popped up was not for consistency reasons, but >>> to do something on carto-css for osm.org >>> We do have multiple local tile sets for Belgium, where we do not have >>> that problem at all. >>> >>> As a Flemish person it's even annoying that software like OsmAnd >>> announces the name field and not name:nl >>> Nobody uses the composed FR-NL name in real live. You always use one >>> of the two depending on preference or situation. >>> >>> As someone suggested before, perhaps we should get rid of the usage of >>> name field for the default osm.org map and let the renderer decide >>> what (and how) to display names in multi-language areas based on >>> name:xx fields. >>> Let the local community assist in setting up those rules for carto-css >>> (e.g. French before Dutch), but the separator is decided by the map >>> maker. >>> >>> All that seems better than starting to change the name (and >>> addr:street) field of tens of thousands of objects just because >>> someone does not like the rendering on the default osm.org map. >>> >>> m. >>> >>> ___ >>> Tagging mailing list >>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20180810/be41d316/attachment-0001.html> > > -- > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 10:01:49 -0300 > From: peterkrauss > To: "Eric H. Christensen" , "Tag discussion, strategy > and related tools" > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes > Message-ID: <92c5c31b078475c256ff04f0c8e65...@openstreetmap.com.br> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > 1 up. > > - - - - - > > Well, > > * can anyone (as I) to vote? I am a database OSM user/developer (PostGIS > etc), not an experienced mapper. > > * there are here an "e-mail-vote protocol" to say +1 / -1 / > abstention... ? > > > Em 2018-08-09 12:57, Eric H. Christensen escreveu: >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >> Hash: SHA256 >> >> I'm opening up my Evacuation Routes proposal[0] for voting. I think >> we've had two good sessions of discussions for ironing out the bugs >> and it's time to get this thing out the door! >> >> [0] >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Evacuation_routes >> >> Thanks, >> Eric >> >> >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- >> Version: ProtonMail >> Comment: https://protonmail.com >> >> wsFcBAEBCAAQBQJbbGRRCRCAdqveAkuz0QAAOIAP/Rd0/+Clv4wMesiWU4Lu >> 2476V4MTaKpF7wmuHuwnXlf2hti07mxu6H0dt8FzCQAQ1wF9O2+j4o06jWpy >> i8qThaSGraU6eiazHrzJQ8cA9doEPFKRZ+piUAapRo7CS6rTOftEGva1jCIa >> JfW8KJ3kX2urQ332DTtQ/mc42ifJ7aVfuOp9UcwJ3K9uYHH7bUPlqENB3/DN >> vAbbnIl+YlAHtc6/Ye+ZmYKx1NgHgR/xV4iF2wyo2i021Q1C7ykAde8t7yOL >> 4HMY/O62gv9Ibtp1zE0m0Hr4gzLjMNeOH1047x8+hjNQa0csfucVw3t1pnhm >> /TfMLkpLwv5obU4YqPPoiTnziFMeI4hiUtXaXPiIuo1bUJTpQq2pIc+JEceK >> lWbsei//6HglwNYsFNYCqS/mgr7sYX9gJXHfrnZ7CPXeOCDRTh4Mrnp1K1AY >> q0Uo/Ml/lii0YBj0kBHCNNLx7aTPd2f9HOz7RlQoxLZpDQzuEqo10xW3UpWP >> ScjSj9aLZv1BgdyGD86YJEyFoJnhdbzQPF1+vfc/kLB5Q+ndI5oAUdEFHJkL >> pWxebiLoTgOZ1tWELdt7gnVG1/8v4tO1BmLY+OhFgOGryJJsRqMcAG+f97HE >> 6diB7HhvpJfqtLom9VDoyTdY4ol0ET/DPg+JCbwNQ9m8Y2YRF8NZwk7CwoAC >> 0WdT >> =rSoA >> -END PGP SIGNATURE- >> >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > -- > Peter Krauss > > > > -- > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 14:07:02 +0100 > From: Paul Allen > To:
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:38 PM, Jo wrote: > Fortunately all streets in Brussels are already mapped, based on official > data from Urbis. So the person from Biel who would prefer to put / in those > names doesn't need to to so anymore. > > There are definitely street name signs which are wrong. It would be absurd > to copy that wrong text into the name tags. It's not so wrong that is > something completely different. > > Besides many street name signs in Brussels are like this: > > Avenue > Simon Bolivar > laan > > Even if that is a spelling error in itself. > name=Avenue Simon Bolivar - Simon Bolivarlaan > name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan > > words glue together in Dutch, like they do in German. > Given that situation I'd say the best way to map it is: name=Avenue Simon Bolivar Laan name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan name:fr=Avenue Simon Bolivar Anyway, we don't want to put exactly what is on the street name signs in > our name tags. > Why not? It's what is on the sign. If that is what is on the sign then that is what is ought to be mapped. Or maybe I should change roads into rivers because I prefer rivers and I don't want to map exactly what is on the ground. > It's simply not practical > Why? String length isn't a data problem unless the string exceeds some arbitrary length allocated in the database schema. It takes me a lot less time to type a long bilingual name for a highway than to trace the highway itself. > and it would very quickly become nonsensical. > If "name=Avenue Simon Bolivar Laan" is nonsensical then the street sign is nonsensical. Complain to your local elected representative and ask him/her for legislation to change the naming conventions of street signs. I find it hard to understand why some mappers do not want to map reality. Unless it's because they wish the street signs were really monolingual. There are people where I live who object to any use of English, should I cater to their whims by amending all names around here to remove the English text or should I map what is there? -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
> If there's a street sign, that's what should be mapped in name=* even if it's > "wrong." Not temporarily wrong, but > permanently "the council has decreed that's what it is, and that's how it's > going to stay" wrong. Because if I'm in > a strange location, looking at a map that labels a street "Foo Lane" that's > what I expect to see on the sign. Anything > else is misleading and unhelpful. what if there are different street signs on the left and the right side because the street is on the boundary between 2 villages ? What if there are 2 streets signs on either end of the street with different spelling ? m. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > I am saying that street signs are just indications of names. Names for > streets are usually (at least in Italy and Germany) assigned by the city > council, Assigned by the county council here in the UK (I'm simplifying a little because some towns are unitary authorities). > it is an act of legislation assigning a name (again , at least in these > countries). Indeed. I doubt many people in the UK know it, but you have to apply to the county council (not the Post Office or Royal mail, as you might expect) to name your house (or change the existing name). > The signs might be ok, but for example in Italy we are used to having > often shorter names signed with respect to the actual name. Errors in > street signs are also not unheard of. Signs are an important part of > reality, but they are not the absolute truth and they are not the only way > to verify a name (e.g. ask locals, look in the city archive, etc.) > Here the signs are almost always correct. Because installing the signs is the task of the county council's highways department. Only rarely do things go wrong: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm Signs are an important part of reality, but they are not the absolute truth > and they are not the only way to verify a name (e.g. ask locals, look in > the city archive, etc.) > Yes, there are sometimes local names. That's what loc_name=*, alt_name=* and old_name=* are for. If there's a street sign, that's what should be mapped in name=* even if it's "wrong." Not temporarily wrong, but permanently "the council has decreed that's what it is, and that's how it's going to stay" wrong. Because if I'm in a strange location, looking at a map that labels a street "Foo Lane" that's what I expect to see on the sign. Anything else is misleading and unhelpful. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
Fortunately all streets in Brussels are already mapped, based on official data from Urbis. So the person from Biel who would prefer to put / in those names doesn't need to to so anymore. There are definitely street name signs which are wrong. It would be absurd to copy that wrong text into the name tags. It's not so wrong that is something completely different. Besides many street name signs in Brussels are like this: Avenue Simon Bolivar laan Even if that is a spelling error in itself. name=Avenue Simon Bolivar - Simon Bolivarlaan name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan words glue together in Dutch, like they do in German. Anyway, we don't want to put exactly what is on the street name signs in our name tags. It's simply not practical and it would very quickly become nonsensical. Jo Op vr 10 aug. 2018 om 23:48 schreef Peter Elderson : > if I were a renderer I would not try to parse/interpret a free format > string. I would parse only clearly defined sections, where the separator is > very very unlikely to occur in text strings. Space slash space might be > suitable, but not if any context is required, context such as that it’s > about language. So even if mappers and taggers decide to use eg > spaceslashspace as a language separator or whatever other category of > separator, I would still just render the full string including the > separator string. > > As a mapper, I want to map whats visible on the ground. Street names are > visible as strings on signs. I want to enter those without having to > consult other sources. If I happen to have more detailed knowledge, I want > to enter that in addition to the basics, not instead of. If the sign has > one line which looks like it has variants within the one string, be it > language varants, religious variants, or script variants, I still put the > whole thing in the tag. I see no need for any kind of unification there, > just copy the whole shebang. > > If (still as a mapper) I see multiple lines with equal font > style/type/size, then I would probably summize that they are equal > variants. In bilingual areas you can often be quite certain. Then I would > concatenate using slash or space slash space. I would expect the renderer, > any rendererer, not to break up the string but just render the whole thing > as the name. Of course when name:xx tags are present, renderers may have > rules for preference regarding name tags. > > If I were a data user, again I would not try to do anything with > substrings of a free format string. Which is not the same as being against > whatever people may wish to put in it, just you don’t build anything on > free format strings. > > > Mvg Peter Elderson > > > Op 10 aug. 2018 om 21:41 heeft marc marc > het volgende geschreven: > > > >> Le 10. 08. 18 à 19:28, Peter Elderson a écrit : > >> If the sign shows two strings one line each, you will need > >> interpretation and/or a glue character or glue string. > > > > in fact, what's the better glue character IS the question > > at the begging of this thread. > > > > Currently, a Brussels resident reading a sign with 2 lines in Biel is > > unable to fill in the name field without making a mistake or without > > first having to search the wiki to find the local convention, at least > > if this mapper has guessed that he is in a bilingual area (which is not > > always obvious when one is not able to recognize that the second line is > > the same as the first line in another language). > > On the other hand, an inhabitant of Biel is unable to map a street > > in Brussels without making a mistake, for the same reason. > > > > In the same way as in osm we defined ";" as being the separator between > > several values of the same key (with several exceptions), it would be > > useful to define a separator between several lines of the same key. > > Afterwards, it will be up to the different local communities to see > > the interest or not, to use it. > > but it would allow for example a contributor who adds a street to > > Brussels in iD or Josm to have assistance from the application to tell > > him how to encode this and make the possible link with the different > > corresponding name:xx > > > > or to take a less personal example, what would be the ideal way to do > > things in a bilingual city where nothing has yet been done ? does this > > community need a 5th glue character different from the 4 others ? > > or is there a way to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the > > 4 existing separators without falling into a sterile debate such as > > "I don't live in a bilingual zone so bilingual zones must have to do > > like me and have a one-only value in name"? > > > > Regards, > > Marc > > ___ > > Tagging mailing list > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org >
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:38 PM, Daniel McCormick wrote: > > The goal of OSM is not to create a map that renders great on the default > renderer. The goal is to create repository that can be rendered quickly and > easily by anyone. The default map is what we primarily interact with and > just like anything it has become the lens by which we view our contribution > to the map. However, that lens is not the best viewing glass in most > situations. When we add multiple languages we are not actually adding > anything to data, as long as we are using name:xx=*, but rather are > cluttering the existing data and impeding the use of the very data that we > spend so much time making better. With the names properly categorized we > can create a renderer that does all we want it to in much simpiler fashion > then if we are to add multilingual names to the name=* tag. We could even > make a renderer that shows multilingual names that sources all of our > name:xx tags. > I fully agree that in a monolingual area, adding other languages in the name=* tag is foolish and unhelpful. For streets I'd argue that adding name:xx=* is also unhelpful. Seeing "William Strasse" or "Wilhelm Strasse" on a map isn't much help if you're on the ground and looking at as sign saying "William Street." The situation changes in multilingual areas, where the signs themselves are multilingual. The example I keep using is: Heol Napier Napier Street But if the sign were damaged and replaced, the new sign is more likely to follow more recent conventions and say "Heol Napier Street." Either way name:cy="Heol Napier" and name:en="Napier Street" but in both situations rendering either of those does *not* show what the sign actually says. Having the renderer software use " / " to concatenate the two represents the first format adequately but misrepresents the second. I don't think there is any substitute for mapping and rendering the actuality. Maybe with vector tiles and the option to display any or all of name, name:cy, name:en, loc_name and alt_name at the click of a mouse, that changes, but I'd still prefer on-the-ground reality as the default. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 7:35 PM, Marc Gemis wrote: > > what if there are different street signs on the left and the right > side because the street is on the boundary between 2 villages ? > name:left=* and name:right=* are what the wiki recommends. Local mapping conventions might well decide to use "Left Street / Right Street" instead or as well. What if there are 2 streets signs on either end of the street with > different spelling ? Split the way and put the appropriate spelling on each half. Put the other spelling in alt_name. Or leave it as a single way and name it "Right Street / Wrong Street." Yes, you've found a couple of examples where it's not possible/sensible to map the reality well. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to not map the reality when it is both possible and sensible to do so. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
Am 10.08.2018 um 20:19 schrieb Paul Allen: > Because if I'm in > a strange location, looking at a map that labels a street "Foo Lane" > that's what I expect to see on the sign. Anything > else is misleading and unhelpful. Couldn't agree more. Note: we do have "official_name" for identifying when s*** happens. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 at 21:42, marc marc wrote: > In the same way as in osm we defined ";" as being the separator between > several values of the same key (with several exceptions), it would be > useful to define a separator between several lines of the same key. Then why not also use the semicolon to separate multilingual names? After all, two names are two values. Besides we already use the semicolon for alt_name. [^1] [^1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Multiple_names ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 10:47 PM, Peter Elderson wrote: if I were a renderer I would not try to parse/interpret a free format > string. I would parse only clearly defined sections, where the separator is > very very unlikely to occur in text strings. Space slash space might be > suitable, but not if any context is required, context such as that it’s > about language. So even if mappers and taggers decide to use eg > spaceslashspace as a language separator or whatever other category of > separator, I would still just render the full string including the > separator string. > Indeed. Don't parse it. It's not intended to be parseable and more than a variable name in a computer program. It is a label with no intrinsic semantics. Well, there's a separator which may not be present on the actual sign (but see below). As a mapper, I want to map whats visible on the ground. Street names are > visible as strings on signs. I want to enter those without having to > consult other sources. If I happen to have more detailed knowledge, I want > to enter that in addition to the basics, not instead of. Indeed. In my opinion that is the true purpose of name:xx=*. There is a separator which could be used (if editors permit) which is present on some signs. That is a new line. Not every bilingual sign has a new line. Not every new line on a sign separates languages (it could be a multi-word name on a sign which has to be narrow because of space restrictions). But it's a separator that could be entered as-is and is guaranteed to mean nothing more than that the sign has a line break at that point (which may also be the end of one language and the start of another). Use name:xx to make it clear if different portions of the sign are in different languages. If (still as a mapper) I see multiple lines with equal font > style/type/size, then I would probably summize that they are equal > variants. In bilingual areas you can often be quite certain. Then I would > concatenate using slash or space slash space. I would expect the renderer, > any rendererer, not to break up the string but just render the whole thing > as the name. Of course when name:xx tags are present, renderers may have > rules for preference regarding name tags. > This is a different problem from which separator to use. But it is sort of tangled up with that. I live in Wales which is officially bilingual English/Welsh. But it's not uniform. There are parts of Wales where most of the population is bilingual with a small percentage understanding only Welsh and a small percentage understanding only English. In other parts of Wales almost everybody understands English and almost nobody understands Welsh. Some renderers assume that Wales is uniform and where name:cy exists it should be used in preference to name:en or name. Other renderers give preference to name:en over name. Both approaches have problems over always preferring name (if present). Name is (should be) what is present. Somebody who speaks only Welsh and somebody who speaks only English can both live with "Aberteifi / Cardigan." Especially if both forms appear on road signage together (they usually do). A renderer preferring name:cy or name:en is going to upset or confuse more people. > If I were a data user, again I would not try to do anything with > substrings of a free format string. Which is not the same as being against > whatever people may wish to put in it, just you don’t build anything on > free format strings. > That's what name:xx is there for. It's still a free-format string, and therefore unparseable, but it's in a particular language -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
if I were a renderer I would not try to parse/interpret a free format string. I would parse only clearly defined sections, where the separator is very very unlikely to occur in text strings. Space slash space might be suitable, but not if any context is required, context such as that it’s about language. So even if mappers and taggers decide to use eg spaceslashspace as a language separator or whatever other category of separator, I would still just render the full string including the separator string. As a mapper, I want to map whats visible on the ground. Street names are visible as strings on signs. I want to enter those without having to consult other sources. If I happen to have more detailed knowledge, I want to enter that in addition to the basics, not instead of. If the sign has one line which looks like it has variants within the one string, be it language varants, religious variants, or script variants, I still put the whole thing in the tag. I see no need for any kind of unification there, just copy the whole shebang. If (still as a mapper) I see multiple lines with equal font style/type/size, then I would probably summize that they are equal variants. In bilingual areas you can often be quite certain. Then I would concatenate using slash or space slash space. I would expect the renderer, any rendererer, not to break up the string but just render the whole thing as the name. Of course when name:xx tags are present, renderers may have rules for preference regarding name tags. If I were a data user, again I would not try to do anything with substrings of a free format string. Which is not the same as being against whatever people may wish to put in it, just you don’t build anything on free format strings. Mvg Peter Elderson > Op 10 aug. 2018 om 21:41 heeft marc marc het > volgende geschreven: > >> Le 10. 08. 18 à 19:28, Peter Elderson a écrit : >> If the sign shows two strings one line each, you will need >> interpretation and/or a glue character or glue string. > > in fact, what's the better glue character IS the question > at the begging of this thread. > > Currently, a Brussels resident reading a sign with 2 lines in Biel is > unable to fill in the name field without making a mistake or without > first having to search the wiki to find the local convention, at least > if this mapper has guessed that he is in a bilingual area (which is not > always obvious when one is not able to recognize that the second line is > the same as the first line in another language). > On the other hand, an inhabitant of Biel is unable to map a street > in Brussels without making a mistake, for the same reason. > > In the same way as in osm we defined ";" as being the separator between > several values of the same key (with several exceptions), it would be > useful to define a separator between several lines of the same key. > Afterwards, it will be up to the different local communities to see > the interest or not, to use it. > but it would allow for example a contributor who adds a street to > Brussels in iD or Josm to have assistance from the application to tell > him how to encode this and make the possible link with the different > corresponding name:xx > > or to take a less personal example, what would be the ideal way to do > things in a bilingual city where nothing has yet been done ? does this > community need a 5th glue character different from the 4 others ? > or is there a way to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the > 4 existing separators without falling into a sterile debate such as > "I don't live in a bilingual zone so bilingual zones must have to do > like me and have a one-only value in name"? > > Regards, > Marc > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
On 11 August 2018 at 09:14, Jo wrote: > What if the street sign said: > > St Francis St. > > would you be putting that exactly as is in the name tag? > > I would put > > Saint Francis Street > > in it. > > What if there are 3 signs, one with > St Francis St. > Saintt Francis St. > St Francis Street > > It may be a longer street, it may be that time passed by between when > those signs were placed. But this does happen. > > Are you reatlly going to put > name=St Francis St./Saintt Francis St./St Francis Street > > to cover all your bases? > There was discussion recently (may have only been on the Australian list?) about St / Saint & the protocol (at least in English) is that Saint is spelled St when it is part of a street / place name. OSM rules are that street is always to be spelt in full, not as St. So even if the street showed those 3 signs, I would leave the whole thing as St Francis Street. Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
sent from a phone > On 10. Aug 2018, at 15:29, Paul Allen wrote: > > 1) It is said to be standard practice to render what is observable on the > ground. everybody can render what she deems most useful, there is not an absolute rule to render what is on the ground (e.g. if there is a typo on a sign, you must not put that into ‘name’ if you know and have confirmed it is a typo. It could be useful to map the signed name as well, but I wouldn’t use the key “name” for it, as that is for the name) > ... > I don't need to know which languages are spoken in this region, or what > language(s) the sign is in, that is what the > sign SAYS and that is what should be mapped (in my opinion). thing is, you might want to know in which language the sign is, and there is currently no way to find out from our data. If you don’t want to know, you are already served ;-) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes
sent from a phone
> On 10. Aug 2018, at 15:01, peterkrauss wrote:
>
> * can anyone (as I) to vote? I am a database OSM user/developer (PostGIS
> etc), not an experienced mapper.
you have to register to the osm wiki (if you haven’t yet) and vote on the
proposal page with {{vote|yes}}— or no
Cheers,
Martin
___
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
sent from a phone > On 10. Aug 2018, at 18:24, Paul Allen wrote: > > You appear to be saying that the name of the street (as on the sign) is not > the name of the street (as in the name=* > tag applying to the street). This appears to be a post-modernist > interpretation of "name." > > What else would the name=* tag, when applied to a way, be the name of? What > is the wording on the street sign > except the name of the street? I am saying that street signs are just indications of names. Names for streets are usually (at least in Italy and Germany) assigned by the city council, it is an act of legislation assigning a name (again , at least in these countries). The signs might be ok, but for example in Italy we are used to having often shorter names signed with respect to the actual name. Errors in street signs are also not unheard of. Signs are an important part of reality, but they are not the absolute truth and they are not the only way to verify a name (e.g. ask locals, look in the city archive, etc.) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
If the sign shows one string, name= should always be right. If you know the string contains two language variants and a separator, sep string, brackets or whatever, you can interpret the string and extract name:xx substrings. I would still keep the name= tag, to serve both rendering and other data usage. If the sign shows two strings one line each, you will need interpretation and/or a glue character or glue string. Because it’s not always two language variants. We have lots of signs giving the name, and on the second line somethingh else like the name of the city quarter, a year or years for birth and death of the person the street is named after, or the function or title of the person that (s)he is remembered for. I have even seen three line street name signs. When it comes to glueing strings (which in the OP’s case equals separating variants) , I strongly prefer / to - because - is extremely common in names and / is not. Mvg Peter Elderson > Op 10 aug. 2018 om 18:24 heeft Paul Allen het volgende > geschreven: > >> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 4:23 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer >> wrote: >> >> > On 10. Aug 2018, at 15:29, Paul Allen wrote: >> > >> > 1) It is said to be standard practice to render what is observable on the >> > ground. >> >> >> everybody can render what she deems most useful, there is not an absolute >> rule to render what is on the ground (e.g. if there is a typo on a sign, you >> must not put that into ‘name’ if you know and have confirmed it is a typo. >> It could be useful to map the signed name as well, but I wouldn’t use the >> key “name” for it, as that is for the name) > > You appear to be saying that the name of the street (as on the sign) is not > the name of the street (as in the name=* > tag applying to the street). This appears to be a post-modernist > interpretation of "name." > > What else would the name=* tag, when applied to a way, be the name of? What > is the wording on the street sign > except the name of the street? > >> > I don't need to know which languages are spoken in this region, or what >> > language(s) the sign is in, that is what the >> > sign SAYS and that is what should be mapped (in my opinion). >> >> thing is, you might want to know in which language the sign is, and there is >> currently no way to find out from our data. If you don’t want to know, you >> are already served ;-) > > A mapper who doesn't speak English or Welsh (but is familiar with the Roman > alphabet) could, nonetheless, > put the words "Heol Napier Napier Street" into the name=* tag for the way. > This is a straightforward mapping (both > senses of the word) and matches observable reality. Yes, it would be nice if > they also added "name:cy=Heol Napier" > and "name:en=Napier Street" but that can come later, if at all. Adding the > language tagging is of *secondary* > importance, a refinement which is nice but not essential. > > Yes, the situation is somewhat different when the street has a name but there > is no signage and different arguments can > be made. And things get really complicated when there is an official name, a > local name, but no signage. But when > there is a street sign name=* should be used for what is on the sign because > anything else is perverse. > > -- > Paul > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
> I find it hard to understand why some mappers do not want to map reality. > Unless it's because they wish the street > signs were really monolingual. There are people where I live who object to > any use of English, should I cater to > their whims by amending all names around here to remove the English text or > should I map what is there? I find it hard to understand why non-Belgians try to change a rule that is accepted by the Belgian community. The name field contains the name of the object as known by the local people. Not what an Englishmen or anyone else knows the place as. There is no 1 name, there are multiple names that have to be placed in 1 field. We could have chosen a semi-colon, as dash, or a any other separator. We chose " - ". The decision was taken before I joined the project in 2011. Perhaps the decision was influenced by what the rendered map looks like. Avenue Simon Bolivar - Simon Bolivarlaan make more sense on a map, looks nicer than "Avenue Simon Bolivar;Simon Bolivarlaan" or whatever. I doubt there are maps that show the contracted name. The name for Belgium "Belgique - België - Belgien" will not be found on the signs you see when you enter the country. The sign depends on the language spoken in the area at the border. So when you arrive in Belgium on the Flemish side you will see "België". Will you change the name when you survey the area there ? Traditional maps show the 3 names, I don't know which separator they use, but it's unlikely they used ";". m. p.s. from a discussion on Welsh street names on the UK mailing list, I doubt it is accepted that you write both the Welsh name and the English name in the name field. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
Le 10. 08. 18 à 20:35, Marc Gemis a écrit : >> If there's a street sign, that's what should be mapped in name=* even if >> it's "wrong." > What if there are 2 streets signs on either end of the street with > different spelling ? I agree with you the name of a highway, is the name of... the highway ! if somebody want to tag the content of street name signs including mistake, feel free to use traffis_sign=street_name or something like that. requesting to put all variant of all mistakes for a street in the name tag is a nonsense ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
Le 10. 08. 18 à 19:28, Peter Elderson a écrit : > If the sign shows two strings one line each, you will need > interpretation and/or a glue character or glue string. in fact, what's the better glue character IS the question at the begging of this thread. Currently, a Brussels resident reading a sign with 2 lines in Biel is unable to fill in the name field without making a mistake or without first having to search the wiki to find the local convention, at least if this mapper has guessed that he is in a bilingual area (which is not always obvious when one is not able to recognize that the second line is the same as the first line in another language). On the other hand, an inhabitant of Biel is unable to map a street in Brussels without making a mistake, for the same reason. In the same way as in osm we defined ";" as being the separator between several values of the same key (with several exceptions), it would be useful to define a separator between several lines of the same key. Afterwards, it will be up to the different local communities to see the interest or not, to use it. but it would allow for example a contributor who adds a street to Brussels in iD or Josm to have assistance from the application to tell him how to encode this and make the possible link with the different corresponding name:xx or to take a less personal example, what would be the ideal way to do things in a bilingual city where nothing has yet been done ? does this community need a 5th glue character different from the 4 others ? or is there a way to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the 4 existing separators without falling into a sterile debate such as "I don't live in a bilingual zone so bilingual zones must have to do like me and have a one-only value in name"? Regards, Marc ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes
1 up. - - - - - Well, * can anyone (as I) to vote? I am a database OSM user/developer (PostGIS etc), not an experienced mapper. * there are here an "e-mail-vote protocol" to say +1 / -1 / abstention... ? Em 2018-08-09 12:57, Eric H. Christensen escreveu: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 I'm opening up my Evacuation Routes proposal[0] for voting. I think we've had two good sessions of discussions for ironing out the bugs and it's time to get this thing out the door! [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Evacuation_routes Thanks, Eric -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: ProtonMail Comment: https://protonmail.com wsFcBAEBCAAQBQJbbGRRCRCAdqveAkuz0QAAOIAP/Rd0/+Clv4wMesiWU4Lu 2476V4MTaKpF7wmuHuwnXlf2hti07mxu6H0dt8FzCQAQ1wF9O2+j4o06jWpy i8qThaSGraU6eiazHrzJQ8cA9doEPFKRZ+piUAapRo7CS6rTOftEGva1jCIa JfW8KJ3kX2urQ332DTtQ/mc42ifJ7aVfuOp9UcwJ3K9uYHH7bUPlqENB3/DN vAbbnIl+YlAHtc6/Ye+ZmYKx1NgHgR/xV4iF2wyo2i021Q1C7ykAde8t7yOL 4HMY/O62gv9Ibtp1zE0m0Hr4gzLjMNeOH1047x8+hjNQa0csfucVw3t1pnhm /TfMLkpLwv5obU4YqPPoiTnziFMeI4hiUtXaXPiIuo1bUJTpQq2pIc+JEceK lWbsei//6HglwNYsFNYCqS/mgr7sYX9gJXHfrnZ7CPXeOCDRTh4Mrnp1K1AY q0Uo/Ml/lii0YBj0kBHCNNLx7aTPd2f9HOz7RlQoxLZpDQzuEqo10xW3UpWP ScjSj9aLZv1BgdyGD86YJEyFoJnhdbzQPF1+vfc/kLB5Q+ndI5oAUdEFHJkL pWxebiLoTgOZ1tWELdt7gnVG1/8v4tO1BmLY+OhFgOGryJJsRqMcAG+f97HE 6diB7HhvpJfqtLom9VDoyTdY4ol0ET/DPg+JCbwNQ9m8Y2YRF8NZwk7CwoAC 0WdT =rSoA -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Peter Krauss ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 2:01 PM, peterkrauss wrote: > > * can anyone (as I) to vote? Have you registered as a user of the OSM Wiki? Voting is a matter of editing the proposal page to add your vote. > I am a database OSM user/developer (PostGIS etc), not an experienced > mapper. If you don't already have an OSM Wiki account you can probably figure out how to create one. :) -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
The renderers and ALL data consumers would then have to take that into account. Tagging for the renderer means: Using a inappropriate tag on an object such that it renders in a colour or style the mapper prefers over correctly tagging an object. Putting 2 names in a name field where those 2 names have equal standing is not mapping for the renderer. That is mere pragmatism while mapping, and yes, we like to get our stuff rendered. Outsiders should already be glad we were able to agree on a consistent ordering for those names. The normal Belgian compromise for resolving this would be: make sure that fr - nl and nl - fr are equally distributed in name tags, at all times... The reason for not choosing Brussel/Bruxelles is that Brussel - Bruxelles clearly shows that there are 2 names in there. Instead of one long glued together string of characters. And of course, there are place names which have - in them, Sint-Agatha-Berchem - Berchem-Sainte-Agathe, for example. (When I write them, I put nl first, obviously, that's my first language, and incidentally also the language that place was known as, until maybe 200 years ago, before it became officially bilingual) Polyglot Op vr 10 aug. 2018 om 12:12 schreef SelfishSeahorse < selfishseaho...@gmail.com>: > Maybe a possible solution to get rid of name=* tags containing names > in multiple languages would be to add the information about which > languages are spoken in a particular region to its boundary relation > (e.g. spoken_languages=de;fr to the municipality boundary of > Biel/Bienne). However, the renderers would then have to take these > relations into account. > > Cheers > Markus > > On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 at 13:25, Marc Gemis wrote: > > > > ] > > > > p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up. > > > > > > That can be a sign that something is amiss. > > > > the previous times it popped up was not for consistency reasons, but > > to do something on carto-css for osm.org > > We do have multiple local tile sets for Belgium, where we do not have > > that problem at all. > > > > As a Flemish person it's even annoying that software like OsmAnd > > announces the name field and not name:nl > > Nobody uses the composed FR-NL name in real live. You always use one > > of the two depending on preference or situation. > > > > As someone suggested before, perhaps we should get rid of the usage of > > name field for the default osm.org map and let the renderer decide > > what (and how) to display names in multi-language areas based on > > name:xx fields. > > Let the local community assist in setting up those rules for carto-css > > (e.g. French before Dutch), but the separator is decided by the map > > maker. > > > > All that seems better than starting to change the name (and > > addr:street) field of tens of thousands of objects just because > > someone does not like the rendering on the default osm.org map. > > > > m. > > > > ___ > > Tagging mailing list > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
Maybe a possible solution to get rid of name=* tags containing names in multiple languages would be to add the information about which languages are spoken in a particular region to its boundary relation (e.g. spoken_languages=de;fr to the municipality boundary of Biel/Bienne). However, the renderers would then have to take these relations into account. Cheers Markus On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 at 13:25, Marc Gemis wrote: > > ] > > > p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up. > > > > That can be a sign that something is amiss. > > the previous times it popped up was not for consistency reasons, but > to do something on carto-css for osm.org > We do have multiple local tile sets for Belgium, where we do not have > that problem at all. > > As a Flemish person it's even annoying that software like OsmAnd > announces the name field and not name:nl > Nobody uses the composed FR-NL name in real live. You always use one > of the two depending on preference or situation. > > As someone suggested before, perhaps we should get rid of the usage of > name field for the default osm.org map and let the renderer decide > what (and how) to display names in multi-language areas based on > name:xx fields. > Let the local community assist in setting up those rules for carto-css > (e.g. French before Dutch), but the separator is decided by the map > maker. > > All that seems better than starting to change the name (and > addr:street) field of tens of thousands of objects just because > someone does not like the rendering on the default osm.org map. > > m. > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:25 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer < dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 10. Aug 2018, at 00:42, Daniel McCormick > wrote: > > > > While the default renderer favors name=* over name:nl or name:fr that is > not the case for other renderers. We as contributors might think that is > the most prominent way to view the data but not all renderers are the same. > Having our data be specific in saying this is the French name, this is the > Flemish name and this is the German name gives the data more flexibility > than just having all languages thrown into one name=* field. > > nobody questions the usefulness of name:language tags, the question is > only what, if anything, to put in the name tag in multilingual areas (and > also this is a term which can describe a lot of different realities, which > not necessarily have to be treated all the same). > Two things. 1) It is said to be standard practice to render what is observable on the ground. A minute's walk from where I live is a street sign that says: Heol Napier Napier Street That is what I observe. See https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0857064,-4.6583686,3a,15.4y,86.99h,96.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQGH0BhhjxXX2ctr-1NxmOg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 I don't need to know which languages are spoken in this region, or what language(s) the sign is in, that is what the sign SAYS and that is what should be mapped (in my opinion). 2) Ordinary consumers (people looking at OSM and trying to figure out where they are) need to know what signs SAY. Presenting them with half the information increases the cognitive load on somebody trying to figure out where they are when GPS is not very accurate. If they are unfamiliar with the languages involved then "Heol Napier Napier Street" may not be the same as "Napier Street" but a separate entity (perhaps its a side street branching off Napier Street). As it happens, I know that Heol Napier is the Welsh name of the street and Napier Street is the English name, but not everyone consuming the data will know (or want to know) that. They are more likely to be concerned with confirming that they are where they think they are. Having name:cy and name:en will perhaps permit vector maps to display names in a language of choice, but lacking that name=* should (in my opinion) show what is actually there. Anything else is perverse. As another matter, Wikipedia has an OSM-derived project that translates all names into as many languages as possible. I'm not sure this is useful. This might make sense for the tag info that comes back from a query, such as the Chinese for "addr:street" but not so much for the name of the street itself (which is almost always the equivalent of an arbitrary label). I'd say that for actual names, transliterations would be useful but translations would not (if you're asking a local and know the local language for "Where is" and can pronounce the name then that is more useful than knowing what the name means in your own language. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
