Re: [GTALUG] flakey laptop power supply [was Re: Laptop made by Intel ?]

[William Park via talk]

I think it's laptop, because AC power works on my personal T450.

On 2022-11-21 17:04, Don Tai via talk wrote:
That's horrible. I'd certainly exchange the laptop. Does USB-C charge as 
quickly as AC mains power? Is it a power supply or a laptop issue?


Don

On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 11:00, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:


| From: William Park via talk mailto:talk@gtalug.org>>

| At work, we recently got Lenovo P1 Gen3, and it's flaky.  My
laptop doesn't
| recognize AC power plug, so I have to charge via USB-C. Everything
is off USB,
| even the docking station, and it disconnects often.  You can hear
Windows
| notifications.  So, network hangs, USB disk hangs, serial dongle
hangs, etc.
| Fans is blasting even in sleep mode.

P1 *should* be quite nice.  Hope you got them on sale.

Modern power supplies are pretty tricky.

Lenovo support should be able to handle this.  Of course there are a
few
problems if it involves returning the device:

- how can you eliminate confidential files from the system before
   returning it?  Theoretically very difficult with an SSD
(wear-levelling
   is magic).

- all your work configuring the system needs to be redone when you
get it
   back.

- you are missing the machine for a few weeks.

I think Lenovo offers a service that allows you to retain the disk when
you send the device in for repair.  It may cost.
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Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Alvin Starr via talk 

| The issue is not just the last mile speed to your house but what is the
| backing service provided.

I simplify it to three parts (terms are different for cable):

1. last mile (user to CO)

2. backhaul (CO to a big centre / Point of Presence for 3rd party ISP)

3. big centre / 3rd party ISP to cloud

Note: this is a model and not 100% accurate.

3rd party ISPs pay a ridiculous amount for backhaul because the CRTC
got bamboozled.  So much that those ISPs wanted to pool together to
provide their own backhaul network but Bell and Rogers would not let
them put equipment in the COs.

The third one matters but is generally beyond the ken of we who are
customers.  If you do traceroutes, sometime you can see backlogs at
exchanges (packet loss).  They usually reflect games being played by
the gods.

For example: Bell used to refuse to interconnect with Rogers so
traffic that should have been exchanged at 1 Front St. went to Chicago
and back.
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[GTALUG] [LONG!] Re: Forced off DSL by Bell

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Michael Galea via talk 

I am puzzling over the same problems...

| Hi, Bell notified me that they will soon be shutting down my copper telephone
| service, no options.  My DSL to TekSavvy will go with it. Joy.

My neighbourhood got Bell Fiber to the Home (FTTH).  I signed up but
said I wanted to keep my copper too.  They thought that that was odd
but went ahead.

I recently got a letter (bulk, I think) saying that copper service is
being turned off in the neighbourhood (in March, I think).

| I run my own NAT/mail/vpn server firewall and I want to keep it.

I get DSL service from Vybe over copper.  I have a static IP address.
I run a mail server and a DNS server on it.  I also have been assigned
a /24 by ARIN (actually, before ARIN) and Vybe routes it to my home
too.

Bell can't give me a static IP address and they sure aren't going to
route my /24 to my home.

| Apparently,
| others have been able connect to Bell by turning on PPPoE pass through on the
| Bell (HH4000) modem.

When I asked Vybe about what to do, they said PPPoE would work on the
HH4000, but only in an "I heard that" kind of way.

This seems very odd to me, for a few reasons.

They actually said I could use my existing modem but that is nonsense
since it connects to copper and the HH4000 provides ethernet.  This
shows the ignorance of the Vybe tech support person that I was talking
to.  Note: I don't blame him but I don't know where to turn for
accurate information.  Experimentation, partly.

What I can do, in theory is throw away my modem and connect my gateway
machine (which talked PPPoE to the modem) to the HH4000.  But I don't
want a big-bang cutover so I'll do it a little differently.

I'm paying Vybe for a DSL connection at 25M, over copper.

Vybe doesn't offer fibre.  Bell doesn't let them resell it.  So how
can I pay them for service over copper after copper is gone?

I could flood them at 1G with this connection.  How can they be
compensated for that amount of traffic?  Remember, they have to pay
their upstream provider for bandwidth; probably Bell too.

I actually want two PPPoE connections:
- to Bell, for the IP service I'm paying them for
- to Vybe for my static IP address etc.
But I don't think that the protocol allows you to have two PPPoE
sessions over one ethernet.

Why do I want Bell's IP address as well as my static address?

- I'm paying Bell for bandwidth and I want to use Bell's bandwidth

- apparently my in-house set-top-boxes (think Chrome Cast With Google
  TV (what a horrible name)) are only allowed access to TV because they
  come through the IP address assigned by Bell.  This was told to me
  by a Bell sales person so it might be wrong, but it makes some
  sense.

| Has anyone on the list gone this route? Is Bell still dreadful, even on fibre?
| Am I crazy to look at Rogers?

Rogers isn't going to give you a static IP address.  My Rogers line
changes IP address randomly but on average about once a year.  But you
cannot control the entry in the reverse domain for a Rogers address so
it isn't very useful for an SMTP server.

I don't know anything about Rogers business service.  That should
support a static IP address.  But even third-party ISPs cannot offer
static IPs over Rogers fabric, only over Bell's.

Most of Rogers service is fast down, slow up.  There are a very few
places where Rogers has installed FTTH, and then it is faster down,
fast up.

With those exceptions, Bell FTTH is capable of much faster up than
Rogers is.

The two giants are leapfrogging each other, but at the speed of
tectonic drift.

I may be forced to move my mailserver out of my home.  Something that
I've avoided for about 35 years.

| PS: I pay ~$40/Mo for landline, which looks to increase to $52 after the
| change! Robbers!

All these companies (by which I mean both -- it *is* a duopoly) offer
great prices for bundles of services.  Typically for two years at a
time.  You have to appear willing to switch to get good deals after
then.

I'm paying Bell $90 + tax for 1.5G down 9xxM up internet + "home
phone" + Basic TV, including HH4000 modem and one "PVR" TV box [It
isn't a PVR -- stuff is being stored somewhere in Bell's cloud).

Note:

Traditionally, Old fashioned copper landlines (POTS) had power
supplied by big batteries in the Central office (CO).  It even had
enough to power a light in your Princess Phone.  So your phone service
continued through Hydro outages.  Of course some events took out both
networks.

When Rogers started to offer landlines, they put UPSes in the nodes.
They'd last for a few hours.  After that, they deployed generators to
keep the service going.  I observed this because they did it across
the street from our house during a long power blackout.

Bell is giving me a phone service though the HH4000.  The HH3000 had a
UPS to handle phone service during Hydro outages.  But the HH4000 does
not include a UPS and the HH3000 isn't an option.  I assume that I
could put the HH4000 on my own UPS.

For most people 

Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 2022-11-21 22:13, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:

On 2022-11-21 20:57, Alex Kink wrote:
They can provide landline over fibre using a POTS adapter for those 
who need that.


That should be possible as there are VOIP based phones. They just 
won't be as reliable as plain old copper based POTS. In the past few 
years our phone has never gone out but the Internet has gone out 
several times.


I don't know how the cost of FTTH is supposed to compare to Rogers for 
similar speeds. Every time I ask about Fiber I'm told that it isn't 
available in my area.


The issue is not just the last mile speed to your house but what is the 
backing service provided.
So when you pick your carrier you need to look into how well they 
provision their back end.


I have a cottage with a 3Mbit DSL service and the DSL service is rock solid.
The back haul from the fiber connect point on the other hand is little 
better than 2 tin cans and a string.
During the last 2 years the summer service has been so bad that I was 
seeing throughput from my cottage to anywhere of tens of bits per second.
So back end performance can at times be much more important than the raw 
last mile speed.



Fortunately now I have Starlink so I am not worried about how badly the 
carriers treat rural Canadians.


--
Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (647)478-6285
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 2022-11-21 18:57, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
[snip]

(Hopefully you won't be too insulted with a rhetorical question - -  )

Do you really think Bell gives one rat's fart about anything than their profit?

(Please note - - - service is somewhat similar(!!!) in their structure
- - - yes I
am now also a 'Bell' customer - - - so speaking from experience ;-( !! )


The Bell directors have a legal responsibility to increase shareholder 
value.

It is simple and there are no requirements for the company to be moral.
If causing peoples deaths without breaking any laws increases the 
shareholder value then the company is obliged to make that choice.


There is a reason you do not get out of the vehicle to pet the lion when 
your on that holiday.
The lion is not evil, it just sees you as food and will rip your throat 
out and not feel bad.


Companies are like that lion.


--
Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (647)478-6285
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] flakey laptop power supply [was Re: Laptop made by Intel ?]

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Don Tai via talk 
| 
| That's horrible. I'd certainly exchange the laptop. Does USB-C charge as
| quickly as AC mains power? Is it a power supply or a laptop issue?

I've seen a video that disassembled a Lenovo charger that supplies
more current than USB C allows.

Apparently Lenovo has its own private protocol for these
beyond-standard power levels.



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Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 2022-11-21 16:13, Michael Galea via talk wrote:
Hi, Bell notified me that they will soon be shutting down my copper 
telephone service, no options.  My DSL to TekSavvy will go with it. Joy.


I run my own NAT/mail/vpn server firewall and I want to keep it. 
Apparently, others have been able connect to Bell by turning on PPPoE 
pass through on the Bell (HH4000) modem.


Has anyone on the list gone this route? Is Bell still dreadful, even 
on fibre? Am I crazy to look at Rogers?


PS: I pay ~$40/Mo for landline, which looks to increase to $52 after 
the change! Robbers!


If they drop the copper then you will need some kind of VOIP adapter 
which is not such a big deal but if you lose power then your VOIP 
adapter will not work unless it has some kind of battery backup.
One thing that was a feature of copper lines was that it provided power 
to run the phone from the central office or remote so that in the case 
of an emergency you would still have service.


A number of years ago I started moving my phone services to a VOIP 
provider and now even my home phone is a VOIP service.

If I am spending over $10/month for 3 phone lines I would be surprised.

It has been fairly reliable for years but at one point my VOIP provider 
was mostly offline for about a week because of a DOS attack.
On the other hand I lost my land line phone from Bell for 2 weeks 
because of some idiot with a back hoe.


My next step is to port my mobile number.

--
Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (647)478-6285
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2022-11-21 20:57, Alex Kink wrote:
They can provide landline over fibre using a POTS adapter for those who need 
that.


That should be possible as there are VOIP based phones. They just won't be 
as reliable as plain old copper based POTS. In the past few years our phone 
has never gone out but the Internet has gone out several times.


I don't know how the cost of FTTH is supposed to compare to Rogers for 
similar speeds. Every time I ask about Fiber I'm told that it isn't 
available in my area.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick

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Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[Don Tai via talk]

When I got Bell Fiber to the home, they ripped out my copper. Rogers, on
the other hand still has their coax to my house. I've had very reliable
service with Bell FTTH for the last 5 years. Very reliable through all
weather. I even have pics of the FTTN install, and the outside connections.

Don

On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 at 20:31, James Knott via talk  wrote:

> On 2022-11-21 19:13, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
> > On 2022-11-21 18:35, Michael Galea via talk wrote:
> >> the copper is being yanked.
> >
> > If someone was still using copper for their telephone service (ie.
> > they don't have a cell phone), what are they going to do for phone
> > service?
> >
> > Is this being done by bell out in the country? Rogers is also forcing
> > changes on customers whether you like it or not. A family member who
> > lives in a condo is being forced to go with Ignite TV as Rogers is
> > dropping the current TV service. Rogers is saying the TV adapter box
> > only has HDMI output so if you have an older TV without HDMI customers
> > in the building will have a problem.
> >
>
> The question becomes how long do you expect the companies to maintain
> obsolete plant.  The world has been moving to fibre and IP for years.
>
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[Alex Kink via talk]

On Nov 21, 2022, at 19:13, Kevin Cozens via talk  wrote:
> If someone was still using copper for their telephone service (ie. they don't 
> have a cell phone), what are they going to do for phone service?

They can provide landline over fibre using a POTS adapter for those who need 
that.

Out of curiosity I just checked bell.ca for what the price for landline is 
these days. It starts at $52/month. I don't know what I expected it to cost, 
since I've never had a landline in the 20+ years I've been in Canada, but I 
certainly didn't expect it to be that much.---
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Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[James Knott via talk]

On 2022-11-21 19:13, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:

On 2022-11-21 18:35, Michael Galea via talk wrote:

the copper is being yanked.


If someone was still using copper for their telephone service (ie. 
they don't have a cell phone), what are they going to do for phone 
service?


Is this being done by bell out in the country? Rogers is also forcing 
changes on customers whether you like it or not. A family member who 
lives in a condo is being forced to go with Ignite TV as Rogers is 
dropping the current TV service. Rogers is saying the TV adapter box 
only has HDMI output so if you have an older TV without HDMI customers 
in the building will have a problem.




The question becomes how long do you expect the companies to maintain 
obsolete plant.  The world has been moving to fibre and IP for years.


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Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2022-11-21 18:35, Michael Galea via talk wrote:

the copper is being yanked.


If someone was still using copper for their telephone service (ie. they 
don't have a cell phone), what are they going to do for phone service?


Is this being done by bell out in the country? Rogers is also forcing 
changes on customers whether you like it or not. A family member who lives 
in a condo is being forced to go with Ignite TV as Rogers is dropping the 
current TV service. Rogers is saying the TV adapter box only has HDMI output 
so if you have an older TV without HDMI customers in the building will have 
a problem.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick

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Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 5:35 PM Michael Galea via talk  wrote:
>
> On 2022-11-21 17:51, Tom Low-Shang via talk wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 04:13:28PM -0500, Michael Galea via talk wrote:
> >> Hi, Bell notified me that they will soon be shutting down my copper
> >> telephone service, no options.  My DSL to TekSavvy will go with it. Joy.
> >
> > Have you contacted TekSavvy about it? They do provide service on a dry
> > loop at no extra charge. That's how my TekSavvy DSL is setup.
> >
> I spoke to the sales guy at TekSavvy first. He asked "Are they going to
> remove the copper?", which I thought was ominous.
>
> I spoke to two Bell service reps and one said the copper would stay. The
> second went away to tech support (10 minutes!) and then said "Bell
> management was committed to a completely fibre based network".  I crupt
> in to the technical support line and a tech confirmed the bad news, the
> copper is being yanked.

Germany has gone to a 100% non-POTS system.
>
> PS: Thank you to Alex and Mike for confirming that I could run PPPoE
> through the Bell modem.
>
> PPS: Oddly enough, my daughter, a Globe and Mail reporter, is
> interviewing the head of the CRTC today. I wish she could ask him why
> I'm going to have to pay Bell double the cost of my TekSavvy Internet
> and what he expects TekSavvy to do when all the DSL and Cable is gone.
>
(Hopefully you won't be too insulted with a rhetorical question - -  )

Do you really think Bell gives one rat's fart about anything than their profit?

(Please note - - - service is somewhat similar(!!!) in their structure
- - - yes I
am now also a 'Bell' customer - - - so speaking from experience ;-( !! )
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Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[Michael Galea via talk]

On 2022-11-21 17:51, Tom Low-Shang via talk wrote:

On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 04:13:28PM -0500, Michael Galea via talk wrote:

Hi, Bell notified me that they will soon be shutting down my copper
telephone service, no options.  My DSL to TekSavvy will go with it. Joy.


Have you contacted TekSavvy about it? They do provide service on a dry
loop at no extra charge. That's how my TekSavvy DSL is setup.

I spoke to the sales guy at TekSavvy first. He asked "Are they going to 
remove the copper?", which I thought was ominous.


I spoke to two Bell service reps and one said the copper would stay. The 
second went away to tech support (10 minutes!) and then said "Bell 
management was committed to a completely fibre based network".  I crupt 
in to the technical support line and a tech confirmed the bad news, the 
copper is being yanked.


PS: Thank you to Alex and Mike for confirming that I could run PPPoE 
through the Bell modem.


PPS: Oddly enough, my daughter, a Globe and Mail reporter, is 
interviewing the head of the CRTC today. I wish she could ask him why 
I'm going to have to pay Bell double the cost of my TekSavvy Internet 
and what he expects TekSavvy to do when all the DSL and Cable is gone.


--
Michael Galea

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Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[Tom Low-Shang via talk]

On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 04:13:28PM -0500, Michael Galea via talk wrote:
> Hi, Bell notified me that they will soon be shutting down my copper
> telephone service, no options.  My DSL to TekSavvy will go with it. Joy.

Have you contacted TekSavvy about it? They do provide service on a dry 
loop at no extra charge. That's how my TekSavvy DSL is setup.

-- 
Tom Low-Shang
416 857 7013
https://twitch.tv/tomlowshang
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Re: [GTALUG] flakey laptop power supply [was Re: Laptop made by Intel ?]

[Don Tai via talk]

That's horrible. I'd certainly exchange the laptop. Does USB-C charge as
quickly as AC mains power? Is it a power supply or a laptop issue?

Don

On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 11:00, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

> | From: William Park via talk 
>
> | At work, we recently got Lenovo P1 Gen3, and it's flaky.  My laptop
> doesn't
> | recognize AC power plug, so I have to charge via USB-C. Everything is
> off USB,
> | even the docking station, and it disconnects often.  You can hear Windows
> | notifications.  So, network hangs, USB disk hangs, serial dongle hangs,
> etc.
> | Fans is blasting even in sleep mode.
>
> P1 *should* be quite nice.  Hope you got them on sale.
>
> Modern power supplies are pretty tricky.
>
> Lenovo support should be able to handle this.  Of course there are a few
> problems if it involves returning the device:
>
> - how can you eliminate confidential files from the system before
>   returning it?  Theoretically very difficult with an SSD (wear-levelling
>   is magic).
>
> - all your work configuring the system needs to be redone when you get it
>   back.
>
> - you are missing the machine for a few weeks.
>
> I think Lenovo offers a service that allows you to retain the disk when
> you send the device in for repair.  It may cost.
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] flakey laptop power supply [was Re: Laptop made by Intel ?]

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

I've actually had good enough luck with USB-C that I leave my Acer's native
power supply at home when I travel.

There are some decent USB PD hubs available that will power/charge the
laptop while also supporting other USB plugins, and some also have
secondary video (by HDMI or USB-C) and even wired Ethernet. Here's one
example


- Evan

On Sun, Nov 20, 2022 at 11:01 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <
talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

> | From: William Park via talk 
>
> | At work, we recently got Lenovo P1 Gen3, and it's flaky.  My laptop
> doesn't
> | recognize AC power plug, so I have to charge via USB-C. Everything is
> off USB,
> | even the docking station, and it disconnects often.  You can hear Windows
> | notifications.  So, network hangs, USB disk hangs, serial dongle hangs,
> etc.
> | Fans is blasting even in sleep mode.
>
> P1 *should* be quite nice.  Hope you got them on sale.
>
> Modern power supplies are pretty tricky.
>
> Lenovo support should be able to handle this.  Of course there are a few
> problems if it involves returning the device:
>
> - how can you eliminate confidential files from the system before
>   returning it?  Theoretically very difficult with an SSD (wear-levelling
>   is magic).
>
> - all your work configuring the system needs to be redone when you get it
>   back.
>
> - you are missing the machine for a few weeks.
>
> I think Lenovo offers a service that allows you to retain the disk when
> you send the device in for repair.  It may cost.
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[Alex Kink via talk]

Do I understand correctly that Bell notified that they are shutting down the 
copper line, which means no more TekSavvy DSL, and are replacing it with FTTH 
(Fibre to the home), hence your mention of HH4000?

Yes, PPPoE pass through on HH4000 is a thing that works. You might need to call 
Bell tech support (good luck!) for them to toggle some "switch" to enable that. 
I've heard that from two separate people who are savvy enough, yet I see 
comments on Ubiquiti forums that this was on by default. YMMV.

As much as I love TekSavvy as a company, I'd much prefer to be in your 
situation. I get very crappy DSL at my place and GPON would go a long way in 
making my life better.

> On Nov 21, 2022, at 16:13, Michael Galea via talk  wrote:
> 
> Hi, Bell notified me that they will soon be shutting down my copper telephone 
> service, no options.  My DSL to TekSavvy will go with it. Joy.
> 
> I run my own NAT/mail/vpn server firewall and I want to keep it. Apparently, 
> others have been able connect to Bell by turning on PPPoE pass through on the 
> Bell (HH4000) modem.
> 
> Has anyone on the list gone this route? Is Bell still dreadful, even on 
> fibre? Am I crazy to look at Rogers?
> 
> PS: I pay ~$40/Mo for landline, which looks to increase to $52 after the 
> change! Robbers!
> 
> -- 
> Michael Galea
> ---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

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[GTALUG] Forced off DSL by Bell

[Michael Galea via talk]

Hi, Bell notified me that they will soon be shutting down my copper 
telephone service, no options.  My DSL to TekSavvy will go with it. Joy.


I run my own NAT/mail/vpn server firewall and I want to keep it. 
Apparently, others have been able connect to Bell by turning on PPPoE 
pass through on the Bell (HH4000) modem.


Has anyone on the list gone this route? Is Bell still dreadful, even on 
fibre? Am I crazy to look at Rogers?


PS: I pay ~$40/Mo for landline, which looks to increase to $52 after the 
change! Robbers!


--
Michael Galea
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