Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Sun, Mar 05, 2023 at 05:31:27PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
> My understanding is that the shared part is at least 10Gbit for each
> segment.  Not sure how many houses would share one segment.
> 
> I still expect a fiber connection to be faster than my 25Mbit DSL
> connection.  And it's not like people are constantly downloading, so
> I would think for the most part you ought to get decent speed in most
> cases, although of course what speed the server at the other and can
> provide you is a different story.  It's only as fast as the slowest link.

At least what I have read says Rogers is using XGS-PON and they say they
offer up to 8Gbit symmetric (so has to be XGS-PON based).  And I did
find at least one article say rogers is in fact one of the companies
deplying XGS-PON.  Apparently NG-PON2 is too expensive still.  Of course
the fiber itself in the ground doesn't care so they can upgrade later
if they want.

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Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Fri, Mar 03, 2023 at 09:37:10AM -0500, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
> Feel free to correct me but I believe that all the "optical" and co-axial
> cable based services are shared(GPON).

What internet isn't these days?  My current 25Mbit DSL link goes to a
box a few hundred meters down the street and then to a shared fiber link
back to Bell.  They are all "up to" some speed.

> So you could be sharing your 2.5Gb with up to 100 other people and if
> everybody decides to download a few hundred GB of video files at the same
> time you could be seeing speeds like 25Mb.
> So last mile bit rate is almost always much greater than the bandwidth that
> is available from the end node(home) to the core(151 front).
> I have seen 6Mbit DSL reduced to hundreds of bps by chronic back-haul
> congestion.
> 
> So a fiber/cable modems buffering with a 1Gb output may be enough to cover
> the practical bandwidth available on a reasonably loaded network.

My understanding is that the shared part is at least 10Gbit for each
segment.  Not sure how many houses would share one segment.

I still expect a fiber connection to be faster than my 25Mbit DSL
connection.  And it's not like people are constantly downloading, so
I would think for the most part you ought to get decent speed in most
cases, although of course what speed the server at the other and can
provide you is a different story.  It's only as fast as the slowest link.

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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Fri, Mar 03, 2023 at 09:56:06AM -0500, James Knott via talk wrote:
> Actually, they're up to 8 Gb.

Hmm, they do in fact offer 8Gbit at that location, starting at $400/month
versus $125/month for 2.5Gbit.  $400 seems a bit steep.

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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 2023-03-03 12:47, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 2023-03-03 12:17, James Knott wrote:
With cable the all the customers on the segment are sharing the same 
bandwidth.
So if your the first one on the cable you have the full speed to 
yourself but if your number 100 then you and the 99 other people are 
sharing that speed.


If you're on Fibe, you only have your own wire out to the node in the 
neighbourhood.  From there, it's shared.  Not much different from cable. 
Well with cable you can have 1000 people connected to the line card on 
the node before your on the shared back-haul.

So its shared up front and on the back.



Forgot to mention, even with original ADSL, with the dedicated copper 
pair, going back to the CO, the Internet connection was still shared 
at the DSLAM.  Several years ago, I was setting up some DSLAMs for 
Sprint Canada, just before Rogers bought them. Each DSLAM shelf had 32 
lines connected to it, but all that traffic wound up on a DS3, which 
was 45 Mb.  So, you had 32 ADSL lines sharing that 45 Mb.



That kind of makes my point.

The last DSLAMs I looked at well over 5 years ago were 24 ports with 
multiple 1G back-hauls

That is less than full bandwidth to less than half the available bandwidth.

On the other hand DOCSIS can support something like 1000 subscribers on 
a cable interface, and then you have the same issues of back-haul.


GPON and 10-GPON I believe are limited to 128 subscribers per fiber 
interface.


In all cases we have a funnel.
The question is how big is the mouth of the funnel and how small is the 
throat.


I don't have a particular love for one technology over another.
But with decades of experience with DSL I am familial with all the warts 
and features of the technology.


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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-03-03 12:17, James Knott wrote:
With cable the all the customers on the segment are sharing the same 
bandwidth.
So if your the first one on the cable you have the full speed to 
yourself but if your number 100 then you and the 99 other people are 
sharing that speed.


If you're on Fibe, you only have your own wire out to the node in the 
neighbourhood.  From there, it's shared.  Not much different from cable. 


Forgot to mention, even with original ADSL, with the dedicated copper 
pair, going back to the CO, the Internet connection was still shared at 
the DSLAM.  Several years ago, I was setting up some DSLAMs for Sprint 
Canada, just before Rogers bought them.  Each DSLAM shelf had 32 lines 
connected to it, but all that traffic wound up on a DS3, which was 45 
Mb.  So, you had 32 ADSL lines sharing that 45 Mb.


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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 

|   My 5-year-old wiring is CAT 6e -- we'll see how far it can
| actually be pushed.

Oops: it is CAT 6.

| I am not sure that 2.5G is enough of a step to cause me to turn
| everything over.  I am buying 2.5Gbit things when there is little
| price premium.  So far, that amounts to:
| 
| - 1.5Gbit down FTTH from Bell [some folks get 3G, I think: oops on the
|   2.5Gbit step]
| 
| - four 2.5Gbit ports on my recent little-PCs-that are routers (not yet
|   deployed)
| 
| And that's it.

Not true.  I forgot that I bought a couple of 2.5Gbit ethernet <-> USB
dongles too.  From AliExpress.  One USB A and the other USB C.
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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-03-03 11:51, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
The upside of ADSL is that it is wire speed from the customer point to 
the node equipment is what you can get before back-haul.


With cable the all the customers on the segment are sharing the same 
bandwidth.
So if your the first one on the cable you have the full speed to 
yourself but if your number 100 then you and the 99 other people are 
sharing that speed.


If you're on Fibe, you only have your own wire out to the node in the 
neighbourhood.  From there, it's shared.  Not much different from cable.


I picked 151 front as a common point that people would know as a 
backbone point.
There are a hand full of IX points in Toronto now but 151 is still the 
biggest.
There is also a reasonable likelihood that some of your traffic will 
still transit 151 Front.


Rogers is certainly there and many other ISPs.  I believe Bell peers in 
the U.S..


When UUNET moved into 151 front the reason I was given was because of 
the adjacent CO.
That was also LONG before the building became a data center, and lots 
of big Bell COs are gone now or nothing more than a small brick 
building, so that CO may have gone also.


I was a computer tech in a data centre there in the late 70s and 80s, 
long before the Internet and VoIP tech that allowed the shrinking of the 
CO.  Last time I was there, a few years ago, doing work for Freedom, the 
"CO" was a small fraction of what it was, when I worked in it.  I was in 
planning there, 1989-1995 and saw a lot of change.  I remember when 
UUNET was there.  Some of my work was for Compuserve and the Microsoft 
network, along with various resellers and other carriers.  I'm the guy 
who planned the installation of a lot of systems there, as well as 
downtown Toronto and also up on the CN Tower.


Here's a bit of trivia from back then.  I had over 6000 bays (racks or 
cabinets, most 8' tall) of equipment to keep track of.  The -48V plant 
ran about 7,000 amps to power all that equipment.  At that time, the 
Unitel equipment was on the 4th & 5th floors, with the other companies 
scattered among the other floors.  I worked with all of them in my planning.


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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 2023-03-03 10:11, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 2023-03-03 09:37, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

Rogers offers 2.5Gbit fiber in some places.
Feel free to correct me but I believe that all the "optical" and 
co-axial cable based services are shared(GPON).


So you could be sharing your 2.5Gb with up to 100 other people and if 
everybody decides to download a few hundred GB of video files at the 
same time you could be seeing speeds like 25Mb.
So last mile bit rate is almost always much greater than the 
bandwidth that is available from the end node(home) to the core(151 
front).
I have seen 6Mbit DSL reduced to hundreds of bps by chronic back-haul 
congestion.


So a fiber/cable modems buffering with a 1Gb output may be enough to 
cover the practical bandwidth available on a reasonably loaded network.




ADSL always comes in as a poor 2nd to cable.  I'm on Rogers with a 
500/30 package.  I rarely see less than about 920/32.

That is pretty good, getting just about 2x the service speed.

xDSL has some serious speed limitations trying to run over old POTS 
copper lines.

I am amazed that they can get 100Mb over old copper lines.

The upside of ADSL is that it is wire speed from the customer point to 
the node equipment is what you can get before back-haul.


With cable the all the customers on the segment are sharing the same 
bandwidth.
So if your the first one on the cable you have the full speed to 
yourself but if your number 100 then you and the 99 other people are 
sharing that speed.


Everybody oversells their bandwidth because not all your customers will 
be using the full bandwidth all the time.
Generally the averaging works well but at some point your customers 
start using more of their bandwidth and your back-haul and upstream 
bandwidth need to increase.
The carriers ran into this problem years ago and resorted to deep packet 
inspection and heavy duty traffic management because the cost of 
increasing the back-haul was higher than the cost of the fancy routers.
All that infrastructure is still there and in use, which is the reason 
you will see blazing speeds using speedtest but not so fast with 
real-life data.


Are there any ISPs distributing from 151 Front W. to customers? (I 
worked in that building for 17 years.)  The nearest Bell offices are 
on Simcoe, near Dundas and on Adelaide, near Bay.  I'm not sure where 
the nearest Rogers office is and I don't know where Beanfield is.  151 
Front W. is the Torix Internet Exchange point, where various carriers 
and ISPs meet to exchange data.  For some reason, Bell doesn't seem to 
be there.

https://www.torix.ca/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Internet_Exchange


I picked 151 front as a common point that people would know as a 
backbone point.
There are a hand full of IX points in Toronto now but 151 is still the 
biggest.
There is also a reasonable likelihood that some of your traffic will 
still transit 151 Front.


Bell has facilities in the building but last time I looked was not a 
member of TORIX.

I am sure there are still some boutique ISPs serving from 151 front.

When UUNET moved into 151 front the reason I was given was because of 
the adjacent CO.
That was also LONG before the building became a data center, and lots of 
big Bell COs are gone now or nothing more than a small brick building, 
so that CO may have gone also.




https://www.speedtest.net/result/14428650936
Never trust speedtests because the carriers manipulate the traffic to 
prioritize speed test sites.

Try copying a multi GB file and see what your speeds are.
Better still wrap it in a VPN.

The point I would like to make is that the speed of the cable into your 
house is seldom if ever the same as the throughput of the overall 
backing network.





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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-03-03 09:37, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

Rogers offers 2.5Gbit fiber in some places.
Feel free to correct me but I believe that all the "optical" and 
co-axial cable based services are shared(GPON).


So you could be sharing your 2.5Gb with up to 100 other people and if 
everybody decides to download a few hundred GB of video files at the 
same time you could be seeing speeds like 25Mb.
So last mile bit rate is almost always much greater than the bandwidth 
that is available from the end node(home) to the core(151 front).
I have seen 6Mbit DSL reduced to hundreds of bps by chronic back-haul 
congestion.


So a fiber/cable modems buffering with a 1Gb output may be enough to 
cover the practical bandwidth available on a reasonably loaded network.




ADSL always comes in as a poor 2nd to cable.  I'm on Rogers with a 
500/30 package.  I rarely see less than about 920/32.


Are there any ISPs distributing from 151 Front W. to customers? (I 
worked in that building for 17 years.)  The nearest Bell offices are on 
Simcoe, near Dundas and on Adelaide, near Bay.  I'm not sure where the 
nearest Rogers office is and I don't know where Beanfield is.  151 Front 
W. is the Torix Internet Exchange point, where various carriers and ISPs 
meet to exchange data.  For some reason, Bell doesn't seem to be there.

https://www.torix.ca/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Internet_Exchange

https://www.speedtest.net/result/14428650936

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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-03-03 08:42, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

Rogers offers 2.5Gbit fiber in some places.


Actually, they're up to 8 Gb.


- four 2.5Gbit ports on my recent little-PCs-that are routers (not yet
   deployed)
Yeah I am considering picking up one of those.



I have a 4 port Qotom mini PC with Gb ports.  I bought it just before 
2.5 Gb models were available.  I run pfSense on it.


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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-03-03 02:54, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

We don't need more that 1Gbit now.  That might change in the lifetime
of your house.  But the wires are the hard part to upgrade -- switches
are easy.  My 5-year-old wiring is CAT 6e -- we'll see how far it can
actually be pushed.


Gb Ethernet was designed for plain CAT5, before 5e was even available.  
I have 25 YO CAT5 here that's running Gb.  This cable was actually 
installed by Rogers, when I first got a cable modem. (anyone remember 
Rogers @home?).  They had to run the coax to my "office" at the other 
end of my condo from where the cable came in. While they were doing 
that, I had them pull in a couple of runs of CAT5, which I provided.  
They fished it up the wall, along side air ducts, over my bedroom closet 
& bathroom, across my laundry room ceiling, down the wall behind my 
water heater and through the wall into my office closet.



I am not sure that 2.5G is enough of a step to cause me to turn
everything over


2.5 and 5 Gb were created because 10 Gb was too much of a jump from 1 Gb.



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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 2023-03-03 08:42, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:



I am not sure that 2.5G is enough of a step to cause me to turn
everything over.  I am buying 2.5Gbit things when there is little
price premium.  So far, that amounts to:

- 1.5Gbit down FTTH from Bell [some folks get 3G, I think: oops on the
   2.5Gbit step]

Rogers offers 2.5Gbit fiber in some places.
Feel free to correct me but I believe that all the "optical" and 
co-axial cable based services are shared(GPON).


So you could be sharing your 2.5Gb with up to 100 other people and if 
everybody decides to download a few hundred GB of video files at the 
same time you could be seeing speeds like 25Mb.
So last mile bit rate is almost always much greater than the bandwidth 
that is available from the end node(home) to the core(151 front).
I have seen 6Mbit DSL reduced to hundreds of bps by chronic back-haul 
congestion.


So a fiber/cable modems buffering with a 1Gb output may be enough to 
cover the practical bandwidth available on a reasonably loaded network.



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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Fri, Mar 03, 2023 at 02:54:37AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> We don't need more that 1Gbit now.  That might change in the lifetime
> of your house.  But the wires are the hard part to upgrade -- switches
> are easy.  My 5-year-old wiring is CAT 6e -- we'll see how far it can
> actually be pushed.

CAT 5e can handle 10GbaseT for runs up to 30m as far as I remember.

> I am not sure that 2.5G is enough of a step to cause me to turn
> everything over.  I am buying 2.5Gbit things when there is little
> price premium.  So far, that amounts to:
> 
> - 1.5Gbit down FTTH from Bell [some folks get 3G, I think: oops on the
>   2.5Gbit step]

Rogers offers 2.5Gbit fiber in some places.

> - four 2.5Gbit ports on my recent little-PCs-that are routers (not yet
>   deployed)

Yeah I am considering picking up one of those.

> And that's it.
> 
> I might buy 2.5Gbit switches some day.  Currently you can get 8-port dumb
> ones on AliExpress for US$140-ish.  That isn't yet worth it to me.

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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Lennart Sorensen via talk 

| Well you don't have to have more than 1Gbit on a single machine just
| because you have 1.5Gbit to the house.  Although I guess if you don't
| share with anyone, you want to use it all yourself.  I am currently
| pondering whether 10Gbit switches are easy to find to wire up my new
| house when I move this fall.  Well if I wanted to spend $1 they are
| easy to find, but that seems a tad unreasonable to me.  Now if I could
| buy one at cost from work... maybe I should ask.

We don't need more that 1Gbit now.  That might change in the lifetime
of your house.  But the wires are the hard part to upgrade -- switches
are easy.  My 5-year-old wiring is CAT 6e -- we'll see how far it can
actually be pushed.

I am not sure that 2.5G is enough of a step to cause me to turn
everything over.  I am buying 2.5Gbit things when there is little
price premium.  So far, that amounts to:

- 1.5Gbit down FTTH from Bell [some folks get 3G, I think: oops on the
  2.5Gbit step]

- four 2.5Gbit ports on my recent little-PCs-that are routers (not yet
  deployed)

And that's it.

I might buy 2.5Gbit switches some day.  Currently you can get 8-port dumb
ones on AliExpress for US$140-ish.  That isn't yet worth it to me.
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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Mar 01, 2023 at 12:57:33PM -0500, David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
> Agreed, but one of our main uses of laptops at work is teleconferencing.
> Using wi-fi lead to stalls, drops and disconnections, so much that we issue
> each person two docking stations with wired ethernet ports. One is for home,
> the other for the office.
> 
> A few colleagues have home routers that are far enough from their desks that
> wiring isn't easy, and they suffer disproportionately.

Never any issue with wifi at our office, unless you go to the lab area
where the amount of wifi present is incomprehensible and even finding
an SSID in the list to connect is nearly impossible.  Makes you wish
there was a search field on the connection page.  It the main part of
the office it just works all the time.  Of course if it didn't someone
would not be doing their job given enterprise wifi is our business.

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Mar 01, 2023 at 12:43:42PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> Current laptops rarely have Ethernet ports.  Wireless is good enough for 
> most purposes and ethernet sockets add thickness.  You can always add a 
> dongle (USB 3.x and Thunderbolt are plenty fast enough).

I have a USB gigabit adapter for my work laptop.  Haven't used it once
yet in 3 years.

> Perhaps "workstation" (eg. ThinkPad P series) and "gaming" notebooks have 
> them.  Those are not optimizing for minimum weight and minimum size.

The 3rd gen P series dropped it.  They do have 40Gbps USB4/thunderbolt
ports though.

> I think that's dead except on systems that require more than 100w.  Not 
> sure.

Certainly the Thinkpad P16 uses a rectangular 230W power connector.
Looks the same as the previous P series as far sa I can tell.

> I like the ThinkCentre M75q tiny at the moment.  Not perfect by any means.  
> I just bought one and will try to use it to replace my almost 10 year old 
> conventional desktop.
> 
> It all depends on what you value.
> 
> I always think I want upgradability.  So lets look at what I did upgrade 
> in almost 10 years of my disktop.
> 
> - more RAM (4 sockets!).  M75q has 2 sockets (I've maxed it)
> 
> - video card (PCIe sockets).  M75q cannot be upgraded.
> 
> - faster ethernet card (PCIe sockets): I never needed it.  M75q cannot.  
>   But now I have a mild need: we got Bell FTTH with 1.5g down.  I expect 
>   it doesn't matter.
> 
> What do you imagine that you might expand?

Well you don't have to have more than 1Gbit on a single machine just
because you have 1.5Gbit to the house.  Although I guess if you don't
share with anyone, you want to use it all yourself.  I am currently
pondering whether 10Gbit switches are easy to find to wire up my new
house when I move this fall.  Well if I wanted to spend $1 they are
easy to find, but that seems a tad unreasonable to me.  Now if I could
buy one at cost from work... maybe I should ask.

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Warren McPherson via talk]

I love the idea of the Framework Laptop.

On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 2:36 PM Dave Collier-Brown via talk 
wrote:

> On 3/1/23 13:27, William Park via talk wrote:
>
> A new machine makes more sense, now.  Up to now, I've always built one
> myself.  Maybe, I should try brand name, this time...
>
> You might look at a Framework laptop, as it's not all glued and soldered
> together
>
> frame.work
>
> Introducing the new and upgraded Framework Laptop
> <#m_2317328739708854745_>
>
> Framework Laptop: A thin, light, high-performance notebook that's
> upgradeable, repairable, and 100% yours. Order today with the latest
> configuration options.
>
>  https://frame.work/ 
>
>
>
> --dave
>
>
> On 2023-03-01 12:43, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
>
> ...
> What do you imagine that you might expand?
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> --
> David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the 
> restdave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com |  -- Mark Twain
>
>
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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Dave Collier-Brown via talk]

On 3/1/23 13:27, William Park via talk wrote:
A new machine makes more sense, now.  Up to now, I've always built one myself.  
Maybe, I should try brand name, this time...

You might look at a Framework laptop, as it's not all glued and soldered 
together

[https://images.prismic.io/frameworkmarketplace/21ea7901-d013-472c-a2f8-cde8f96f4f4a_PR2204+-+ADL+Press1.jpg?auto=compress,format]

frame.work

Introducing the new and upgraded Framework Laptop

Framework Laptop: A thin, light, high-performance notebook that's upgradeable, 
repairable, and 100% yours. Order today with the latest configuration options.

 https://frame.work/



--dave


On 2023-03-01 12:43, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
...
What do you imagine that you might expand?
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--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com
 |  -- Mark Twain


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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-03-01 13:27, William Park via talk wrote:
I've been postponing upgrades.  If I start to upgrade, it would be new 
big monitor, new graphic card to match, more ram, faster ssd, external 
hard disk "raid" box, etc.  Strangely, I don't care about CPU, as long 
as it's fast enough.  I would be satisfied with fast single core.


My computer started life with a 32 bit AMD CPU.  I've replaced the mom 
board a couple of times and now have an i7 CPU.  About the only original 
parts left are the case and power cord.  It's so old, the case is cream 
colour, which happens to match my IBM "M" keyboard.


My ThinkPad E520 is over 11 years old and still going strong.

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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[William Park via talk]

I've been postponing upgrades.  If I start to upgrade, it would be new 
big monitor, new graphic card to match, more ram, faster ssd, external 
hard disk "raid" box, etc.  Strangely, I don't care about CPU, as long 
as it's fast enough.  I would be satisfied with fast single core.


A new machine makes more sense, now.  Up to now, I've always built one 
myself.  Maybe, I should try brand name, this time...



On 2023-03-01 12:43, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

...
What do you imagine that you might expand?
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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[David Collier-Brown via talk]

On 3/1/23 12:43, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:


| From: William Park via talk 

| I decided against buying it.  It doesn't have builtin ethernet port,

Current laptops rarely have Ethernet ports.  Wireless is good enough for
most purposes and ethernet sockets add thickness.


Agreed, but one of our main uses of laptops at work is teleconferencing. 
Using wi-fi lead to stalls, drops and disconnections, so much that we 
issue each person two docking stations with wired ethernet ports. One is 
for home, the other for the office.


A few colleagues have home routers that are far enough from their desks 
that wiring isn't easy, and they suffer disproportionately.


--dave

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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: William Park via talk 

| I decided against buying it.  It doesn't have builtin ethernet port,

Current laptops rarely have Ethernet ports.  Wireless is good enough for 
most purposes and ethernet sockets add thickness.  You can always add a 
dongle (USB 3.x and Thunderbolt are plenty fast enough).

Perhaps "workstation" (eg. ThinkPad P series) and "gaming" notebooks have 
them.  Those are not optimizing for minimum weight and minimum size.

| and power
| port is not the square plug like other (older) ThinkPads.

I think that's dead except on systems that require more than 100w.  Not 
sure.

| My company upgraded to ThinkPad P1 (64GB ram, 1TB ssd), and it's crap. First
| laptop didn't recognize AC power plug, forcing me to charge via USB-C.  Second
| (current) laptop crashes everyday, especially during Zoom but not always.

Oh well.  So many ways that can happen.  Try warranty support?

| I'm looking to upgrade my desktop.  Hopefully with a laptop, but another
| desktop is okay too.  I was going to buy the same laptop as work laptop, and
| I'm glad I waited.

I like the ThinkCentre M75q tiny at the moment.  Not perfect by any means.  
I just bought one and will try to use it to replace my almost 10 year old 
conventional desktop.

It all depends on what you value.

I always think I want upgradability.  So lets look at what I did upgrade 
in almost 10 years of my disktop.

- more RAM (4 sockets!).  M75q has 2 sockets (I've maxed it)

- video card (PCIe sockets).  M75q cannot be upgraded.

- faster ethernet card (PCIe sockets): I never needed it.  M75q cannot.  
  But now I have a mild need: we got Bell FTTH with 1.5g down.  I expect 
  it doesn't matter.

What do you imagine that you might expand?
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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[William Park via talk]

I decided against buying it.  It doesn't have builtin ethernet port, and 
power port is not the square plug like other (older) ThinkPads.


My company upgraded to ThinkPad P1 (64GB ram, 1TB ssd), and it's crap. 
First laptop didn't recognize AC power plug, forcing me to charge via 
USB-C.  Second (current) laptop crashes everyday, especially during Zoom 
but not always.


I'm looking to upgrade my desktop.  Hopefully with a laptop, but another 
desktop is okay too.  I was going to buy the same laptop as work laptop, 
and I'm glad I waited.



On 2023-02-28 12:12, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

| From: William Park via talk 
|
| I just received email promo from Lenovo:
|
| ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) - Black
| https://s.bluecore.com/Utrkeyg72dZq_0DQf820_NrJxD
|
| Is this a good deal?

The more precise question would "is this a good deal for me?"
Unfortunately we don't really know what you need or want.

My current ideas about Lenovo:

- they have horribly high list prices

- they often put stuff on sale.  Usually 40-50+ percent off.

- (all brands) expandability of notebooks is being reduced.  Different
   models are different.  Pro Tip: apparently no LPDDR4 DRAM is in sockets.
   Many machines have no RAM sockets -- all soldered.
   Some have soldered RAM + 1 socket (a lifeline but annoying because
   two matched SODIMMs perform better).
   
- they have a changing array of coupons to give you additional discounts.

   They are not secret but they are sometimes hard to find.

- sometimes you can get significant cash-back by going through rakuten.ca
   10% yesterday and today but that is higher than normal.  I've seen it at
   14% a couple of weeks ago.
   Note: rakuten does not combine with some coupons (hard to figure out
   which)

- there is an educational / first responders discount through id.me
   I know little about it because I don't qualify.

About this particular computer:

- for that much money, I'd demand perfection.

- I'd prefer a better screen (more pixels, more nits, better colour
   perhaps, maybe touch)

- I'd prefer a later generation Intel CPU.  They really seem to be getting
   better in each recent generation.  I also prefer AMD but I think that
   Intel is now getting close and has some advantages (Thunderbolt,
   "efficiency cores").

   (AMD Ryzen CPU naming is a misleading mess.  You have to look up the
   particular chip to find out the microarchitecture generation.)

- I have not bought ThinkPads recently because the price premium has been
   too high.  I certainly liked much about my ancient ones.
   Exception: I bought ThinkPad C13 ChromeBooks but they were less than
   $200.

- 16G RAM is much better that 8G but is it enough for the long
   amortization period of such an expensive notebook? (Three years ago I
   threw 32G in my main notebook because it was so cheap; I don't know if I
   need it)  For most people, 16G is comfortable.  For you: I have no way
   of knowing; probably you don't either.

- I find interesting deals on redflagdeals.com, in the Hot Deals Forum.
   Deals come and go.

- Randomly, this is cheaper and has better features but is a ThinkBook
   rather than a ThinkPad (not the same quality).  Note: I'm not
   recommending it (I haven't looked closely at it)



- if still available, this is a little more than half the cost of the
   ThinkPad and better in some ways.  You may detest the format: touch
   screen, can be folded into a tablet.



If you don't mind a barely used ThinkPad, this guy bought one at a very
good price from Lenovo, decided he didn't need it, instead of returning it
offered it to the community at cost, got stiffed, and is probably stuck
with it.  So: he might accept a bit less than his asking price:



Somewhere in the forums he mentioned why he didn't like it as much as
other choices.

Note: his price will not be subject to HST.  He might be able to give
you a copy of his original invoice which will show the HST he paid.

Note: I haven't talked to him about this so much is guess-work on my part.


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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 

| If you don't mind a barely used ThinkPad, this guy bought one at a very 
| good price from Lenovo, decided he didn't need it, instead of returning it 
| offered it to the community at cost, got stiffed, and is probably stuck 
| with it.

Wrong.  He's going to return it soon if nobody wants it.


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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: William Park via talk 
| 
| I just received email promo from Lenovo:
| 
| ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) - Black
| https://s.bluecore.com/Utrkeyg72dZq_0DQf820_NrJxD
| 
| Is this a good deal?

The more precise question would "is this a good deal for me?"
Unfortunately we don't really know what you need or want.

My current ideas about Lenovo:

- they have horribly high list prices

- they often put stuff on sale.  Usually 40-50+ percent off.

- (all brands) expandability of notebooks is being reduced.  Different 
  models are different.  Pro Tip: apparently no LPDDR4 DRAM is in sockets.
  Many machines have no RAM sockets -- all soldered.
  Some have soldered RAM + 1 socket (a lifeline but annoying because
  two matched SODIMMs perform better).
  
- they have a changing array of coupons to give you additional discounts.
  They are not secret but they are sometimes hard to find.

- sometimes you can get significant cash-back by going through rakuten.ca
  10% yesterday and today but that is higher than normal.  I've seen it at
  14% a couple of weeks ago.
  Note: rakuten does not combine with some coupons (hard to figure out 
  which)

- there is an educational / first responders discount through id.me
  I know little about it because I don't qualify.

About this particular computer:

- for that much money, I'd demand perfection.

- I'd prefer a better screen (more pixels, more nits, better colour 
  perhaps, maybe touch)

- I'd prefer a later generation Intel CPU.  They really seem to be getting 
  better in each recent generation.  I also prefer AMD but I think that 
  Intel is now getting close and has some advantages (Thunderbolt, 
  "efficiency cores").

  (AMD Ryzen CPU naming is a misleading mess.  You have to look up the 
  particular chip to find out the microarchitecture generation.)

- I have not bought ThinkPads recently because the price premium has been 
  too high.  I certainly liked much about my ancient ones.
  Exception: I bought ThinkPad C13 ChromeBooks but they were less than 
  $200.

- 16G RAM is much better that 8G but is it enough for the long 
  amortization period of such an expensive notebook? (Three years ago I 
  threw 32G in my main notebook because it was so cheap; I don't know if I 
  need it)  For most people, 16G is comfortable.  For you: I have no way 
  of knowing; probably you don't either.

- I find interesting deals on redflagdeals.com, in the Hot Deals Forum.  
  Deals come and go.

- Randomly, this is cheaper and has better features but is a ThinkBook 
  rather than a ThinkPad (not the same quality).  Note: I'm not 
  recommending it (I haven't looked closely at it)



- if still available, this is a little more than half the cost of the 
  ThinkPad and better in some ways.  You may detest the format: touch 
  screen, can be folded into a tablet.



If you don't mind a barely used ThinkPad, this guy bought one at a very 
good price from Lenovo, decided he didn't need it, instead of returning it 
offered it to the community at cost, got stiffed, and is probably stuck 
with it.  So: he might accept a bit less than his asking price:



Somewhere in the forums he mentioned why he didn't like it as much as 
other choices.

Note: his price will not be subject to HST.  He might be able to give 
you a copy of his original invoice which will show the HST he paid.

Note: I haven't talked to him about this so much is guess-work on my part.---
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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 06:40:16PM -0500, Michael Hill via talk wrote:
> It seems like a good deal but I couldn't find any evidence that it was
> possible to increase the RAM.

You can not upgrade the ram.  That model (like most of the slim s
versions) is not upgradable.  You have what you bought and that's it.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[Michael Hill via talk]

On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 6:01 PM William Park via talk  wrote:
>
> I just received email promo from Lenovo:
>
>  ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) - Black
>  https://s.bluecore.com/Utrkeyg72dZq_0DQf820_NrJxD
>
> Is this a good deal?

It seems like a good deal but I couldn't find any evidence that it was
possible to increase the RAM.

Mike
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[GTALUG] ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) -- good deal?

[William Park via talk]

I just received email promo from Lenovo:

ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) - Black
https://s.bluecore.com/Utrkeyg72dZq_0DQf820_NrJxD

Is this a good deal?
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