subject:"Re\: \[GTALUG\] Boeing India software engineers"


Evan, please don't do this. This thread is beyond hope.

On 2019-03-13 5:18 p.m., Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

Just posted Monday:
https://www.lpi.org/blog/2019/03/11/will-robot-eat-your-job

While putting the link here may appear self serving, at least it's an 
attempt to bring this thread actually relevant to the purpose of this 
list... discussion of Linux and Open Source.


(not sure if the "L" word even appears earlier in this thread)

Peace.
___
Evan Leibovitch, Toronto
@evanleibovitch/@el56

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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers


Hello o1bigtenor,

What Ted Leslie said is not a proper citation.
Saying a bunch of derogatory things about a group of people and then 
adding 'if true' is not a citation. This does not provide proper context 
and is a violation of Code of Conduct.


This is a mailing list and not a court precedent, there are no freedom 
of speech implications here.


If you want to discuss moderation decision, please email bo...@gtalug.org

You've been put into moderation queue for the talk mailing list.

Alex.




On 2019-03-13 3:49 p.m., o1bigtenor wrote:

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 2:13 PM Alex Volkov via talk  wrote:

Okay Ted,

This violates several rules of our code of conduct including discrimination 
based on gender and gender identity and you are banned from this list.

I also removed Gary from the list because of repeatedly ignoring my warnings 
that the discussion about Boeing outsourcing is over.


Greetings Alex

I think I understand what you are trying to do but what you are
actually doing is increasing discrimination not lessening it with this
ruling.

An individual's writings were cited and concern was expressed if such
would prove true. You responded by classing this quote as
discrimination.
As I had never heard of the individual cited I had to look him up - -
- -it would appear that perhaps your issue should be with the
individual cited rather than the citee.

As much as I tend to agree that this thread has gone in directions it
perhaps should not have gone the actions to end the thread are, to me
at least, far scarier than the thread itself.

Regards

Dee



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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

2019-03-13 Thread Scott Sullivan via talk

Forgive the lack of signature.

This is a jointly drafted statement of GTALUG's board of directors.

We apologize for the confusion that omission may of caused. This comes from all 
of us, not just Alex.

On March 13, 2019 3:36:23 PM EDT, Alex Volkov via talk  wrote:
>Folks,
>
>
>In accordance with our code of conduct, we feel it's necessary to 
>intervene on this thread. It has not been conducted in a constructive 
>manner, and veered into racism.
>
>
>Those that have stepped out of line have been notified, and put under 
>the moderation queue. Further attempts to perpetuate this unacceptable 
>behaviour will result in bans.
>
>
>Here is our Code of Conduct if anyone needs a reference on how to
>behave 
>appropriately --https://gtalug.org/about/code-of-conduct/
>
>
>

-- 
Scott Sullivan
w/ GTALUG President Hat on
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

2019-03-13 Thread o1bigtenor via talk

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 2:13 PM Alex Volkov via talk  wrote:
>
> Okay Ted,
>
> This violates several rules of our code of conduct including discrimination 
> based on gender and gender identity and you are banned from this list.
>
> I also removed Gary from the list because of repeatedly ignoring my warnings 
> that the discussion about Boeing outsourcing is over.
>

Greetings Alex

I think I understand what you are trying to do but what you are
actually doing is increasing discrimination not lessening it with this
ruling.

An individual's writings were cited and concern was expressed if such
would prove true. You responded by classing this quote as
discrimination.
As I had never heard of the individual cited I had to look him up - -
- -it would appear that perhaps your issue should be with the
individual cited rather than the citee.

As much as I tend to agree that this thread has gone in directions it
perhaps should not have gone the actions to end the thread are, to me
at least, far scarier than the thread itself.

Regards

Dee
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers


Folks,


In accordance with our code of conduct, we feel it's necessary to 
intervene on this thread. It has not been conducted in a constructive 
manner, and veered into racism.



Those that have stepped out of line have been notified, and put under 
the moderation queue. Further attempts to perpetuate this unacceptable 
behaviour will result in bans.



Here is our Code of Conduct if anyone needs a reference on how to behave 
appropriately --https://gtalug.org/about/code-of-conduct/




On 2019-03-13 3:01 p.m., Christopher Browne via talk wrote:

On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 at 11:53, Alex Volkov via talk  wrote:

Okay everyone,

I believe this discussion is moved way off-topic and I don't think
anyone would change anyone else mind at this point.

So we should leave it at that.

Yes, please.

Quoting from the rules about this list...

"Particularly for this list:

- Don't be the guy on the soapbox,
- Try to stay out of political, social, or religious issues,"

This is certainly a political argument, therefore something we are to
"try to stay out of."

Individuals may not *think* they're saying things intended to be
racist, but that doesn't prevent those things from nevertheless being
perceived as such, and that's a decidedly woeful road to PLEASE NOT
head down.  Explaining why it wasn't is enormously unlikely to help.
In national scandal news, the Prime Minister is having little success
with his recent attempts to explain his situation, and he has
professional staff doubtless trying to help.  For those of us without
helpful staff, good luck



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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers


Okay Ted,

This violates several rules of our code of conduct including 
discrimination based on gender and gender identity and you are banned 
from this list.


I also removed Gary from the list because of repeatedly ignoring my 
warnings that the discussion about Boeing outsourcing is over.




Alex.


On 2019-03-13 2:58 p.m., ted leslie via talk wrote:
Harper in his "right here, right now" book - that just came out 
recently, explained all of this, and also, even basically saying Trump 
probably will not see out his term , and he is unstable, explained his 
election win, all coming round to "trade deals", to which Harper 
claims in his tenure he

generated more then any other head of state in time frame.
He talks about anywheres and somewheres - many people in decision 
making roles (especially 1%'rs) are anywheres in their lives, global 
and not very tied to community (of origin) anymore. Somewheres, the 
opposite.
This explains some of the free market slant, but the real issue is a 
"trade deal", good or bad?

Which is why, with all faults, many! Trump pulled off a win.
When a state makes a trade deal, it has to be good in a broad sense!
Harper gave an example of the dairy issue in Quebec (sms) that is a 
sore point because its very protectionist, and odd in view of "free 
trade". But, to stop that dairy SMS would be catastrophic for many 
small communities, so against , (also discussed) very stupid dogma : 
free trade is good period, the

deal is not done. Its not dogmatic , you need a GOOD DEAL!
A state has to make smart trade deals, and Harper passed on China 
trade deals (new) because it was insane, the IP theft is MASSIVE, this 
is not up for debate. Many other things are massively lopsided.
Unfortunately the Clinton trade deal damage has been done, and not 
something to quickly fix. Harper appears to have done much better 
trade deals, but it would appear the job outsourcing has to become a 
bigger variable in doing the deals.
When you don't want to "protect" (rather, really open up), you need to 
ease (in the trade agreement, i.e. period by period easement), and to 
retrain, and as a state, get your shit together.
Having said all this, I am not knowledgeable in the trade deals (if 
any) we have with India, and what should be done. If Canada has a 
net + to trade with India (good and services), then seems feds have to 
fund into the job lose incurred to correct, or, NOT MAKE THE DEAL.


Another oddity, if true, that is coming down the pipe in Canada, is 
the , according to JBP, Jordan B Peterson, the transition to 80+% 
female makeup in post secondary in 15 years, and in time leaving only 
males somewhat majority in STEM, and 0% in other,
if true, this is a incredible social change that is likely to have 
insane consequences. The new SJW, IdentPolitics, (snow flake gen - 
maybe a derog. term now, wasn't few years ago, not sure a better PC 
term), is going to create a new society soon, that outsourcing of jobs 
is going to be
infinitely low on the priority scale, of Canada's issues! I hope JBP 
is wrong, but its been a hell of a bomb drop, and some stats do 
perhaps support it. Disruption to employment with offshore is BIG! 
disruptions with this potential shift in education gender make up, is 
mind boggling!


-tl



On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 2:08 PM Don Tai via talk > wrote:


While the discussion centers around Indian workers, please do not
forget China. China has 1.4B people and they need work as well.
The Chinese government is willing to subsidize factories that
export products. These export products are therefore much cheaper
than comparable North American made ones. Thus US and Canuck
factories bite the dust. Hence Walmart stocks a significant amount
of Chinese goods.

The race to the bottom, when there is a country/state actor
involved means people here in Western countries lose companies and
jobs. The issue is much more complex than just saying it is ok for
Canadian companies to find the cheapest workers, for Canadian
consumers to buy the cheapest products. What will happen to
Canadian or Western society when a vast majority of jobs have gone
to China? If you want a harmonious society, jobs are needed for
all types of people. If you export a portion of these jobs to the
lowest bidder in another country, what happens to those people? As
a society we have no answer as yet, other than "You should find a
job higher up the value chain". Such comments seem so very
elitist, and lacking in compassion for fellow Canadians.
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

2019-03-13 Thread Christopher Browne via talk

On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 at 11:53, Alex Volkov via talk  wrote:
> Okay everyone,
>
> I believe this discussion is moved way off-topic and I don't think
> anyone would change anyone else mind at this point.
>
> So we should leave it at that.

Yes, please.

Quoting from the rules about this list...

"Particularly for this list:

- Don't be the guy on the soapbox,
- Try to stay out of political, social, or religious issues,"

This is certainly a political argument, therefore something we are to
"try to stay out of."

Individuals may not *think* they're saying things intended to be
racist, but that doesn't prevent those things from nevertheless being
perceived as such, and that's a decidedly woeful road to PLEASE NOT
head down.  Explaining why it wasn't is enormously unlikely to help.
In national scandal news, the Prime Minister is having little success
with his recent attempts to explain his situation, and he has
professional staff doubtless trying to help.  For those of us without
helpful staff, good luck

-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

2019-03-13 Thread ted leslie via talk

Harper in his "right here, right now" book - that just came out recently,
explained all of this, and also, even basically saying Trump probably will
not see out his term , and he is unstable, explained his election win, all
coming round to "trade deals", to which Harper claims in his tenure he
generated more then any other head of state in time frame.
He talks about anywheres and somewheres - many people in decision making
roles (especially 1%'rs) are anywheres in their lives, global and not very
tied to community (of origin) anymore. Somewheres, the opposite.
This explains some of the free market slant, but the real issue is a "trade
deal", good or bad?
Which is why, with all faults, many! Trump pulled off a win.
When a state makes a trade deal, it has to be good in a broad sense!
Harper gave an example of the dairy issue in Quebec (sms) that is a sore
point because its very protectionist, and odd in view of "free trade". But,
to stop that dairy SMS would be catastrophic for many small communities, so
against , (also discussed) very stupid dogma : free trade is good period,
the
deal is not done. Its not dogmatic , you need a GOOD DEAL!
A state has to make smart trade deals, and Harper passed on China trade
deals (new) because it was insane, the IP theft is MASSIVE, this is not up
for debate. Many other things are massively lopsided.
Unfortunately the Clinton trade deal damage has been done, and not
something to quickly fix. Harper appears to have done much better trade
deals, but it would appear the job outsourcing has to become a bigger
variable in doing the deals.
When you don't want to "protect" (rather, really open up), you need to ease
(in the trade agreement, i.e. period by period easement), and to retrain,
and as a state, get your shit together.
Having said all this, I am not knowledgeable in the trade deals (if any) we
have with India, and what should be done. If Canada has a net + to trade
with India (good and services), then seems feds have to fund into the job
lose incurred to correct, or, NOT MAKE THE DEAL.

Another oddity, if true, that is coming down the pipe in Canada, is the ,
according to JBP, Jordan B Peterson, the transition to 80+% female makeup
in post secondary in 15 years, and in time leaving only males somewhat
majority in STEM, and 0% in other,
if true, this is a incredible social change that is likely to have insane
consequences. The new SJW, IdentPolitics, (snow flake gen - maybe a derog.
term now, wasn't few years ago, not sure a better PC term), is going to
create a new society soon, that outsourcing of jobs is going to be
infinitely low on the priority scale, of Canada's issues! I hope JBP is
wrong, but its been a hell of a bomb drop, and some stats do perhaps
support it. Disruption to employment with offshore is BIG! disruptions with
this potential shift in education gender make up, is mind boggling!

-tl

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 2:08 PM Don Tai via talk  wrote:

> While the discussion centers around Indian workers, please do not forget
> China. China has 1.4B people and they need work as well. The Chinese
> government is willing to subsidize factories that export products. These
> export products are therefore much cheaper than comparable North American
> made ones. Thus US and Canuck factories bite the dust. Hence Walmart stocks
> a significant amount of Chinese goods.
>
> The race to the bottom, when there is a country/state actor involved means
> people here in Western countries lose companies and jobs. The issue is much
> more complex than just saying it is ok for Canadian companies to find the
> cheapest workers, for Canadian consumers to buy the cheapest products. What
> will happen to Canadian or Western society when a vast majority of jobs
> have gone to China? If you want a harmonious society, jobs are needed for
> all types of people. If you export a portion of these jobs to the lowest
> bidder in another country, what happens to those people? As a society we
> have no answer as yet, other than "You should find a job higher up the
> value chain". Such comments seem so very elitist, and lacking in compassion
> for fellow Canadians.
> ---
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> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

2019-03-13 Thread Don Tai via talk

While the discussion centers around Indian workers, please do not forget
China. China has 1.4B people and they need work as well. The Chinese
government is willing to subsidize factories that export products. These
export products are therefore much cheaper than comparable North American
made ones. Thus US and Canuck factories bite the dust. Hence Walmart stocks
a significant amount of Chinese goods.

The race to the bottom, when there is a country/state actor involved means
people here in Western countries lose companies and jobs. The issue is much
more complex than just saying it is ok for Canadian companies to find the
cheapest workers, for Canadian consumers to buy the cheapest products. What
will happen to Canadian or Western society when a vast majority of jobs
have gone to China? If you want a harmonious society, jobs are needed for
all types of people. If you export a portion of these jobs to the lowest
bidder in another country, what happens to those people? As a society we
have no answer as yet, other than "You should find a job higher up the
value chain". Such comments seem so very elitist, and lacking in compassion
for fellow Canadians.
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

2019-03-13 Thread Russell Reiter via talk

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 12:09 PM Dhaval Giani via talk, 
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 5:05 PM Gary  wrote:
> >
> > Dhaval, your dim view of the Indian value chain is unfounded because
> > India is now ranked 3rd in A.I. research. Indeed, if you're higher up in
> > the value chain in North America then you certainly do run the risk of
> > losing your job because, for example,  A.I. research has to be pretty
> > high up in the value chain I would suspect!!
> >
> > https://www.analyticsindiamag.com/ai-ml-research-breakthroughs-india/
> >
>
> Gary,
>
> I am getting close to assuming malicious intent in your statements
> right now. I have at no point in time put forth a dim view in the
> indian value chain. Instead you have lowered the value of indian chain
> by saying they will do it for cheap. I have constantly been advocating
> for friends back in India to charge the same prices that people here
> charge for the same skills. Why not? It is the same job. Please go and
> reread what I said. Once you go up the value chain, you are able to
> command the same dollar value, and that's when the risk of you losing
> your job reduces.
>

There is no job that an employee is not at risk of losing. The so called
value chain is just marketing hyperbole, just ask any placement/recruitment
specialist. Ask them which side of the cycle they are currently pushing,
glut of jobs or employee's. Its always one or tbe other. It is the
imbalance of trade which generates employment; Supply side vs. demand side
and recruitment agents square in the middle promoting whatever makes them
the most money.

Ethics and morals; jobs and people; nothing more than commodities to be
traded in the international marketplace. Its kind of like human
trafficking, except you don't actually have to move anything around
physically.

> Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 5:05 PM Gary  wrote:
>
> Dhaval, your dim view of the Indian value chain is unfounded because
> India is now ranked 3rd in A.I. research. Indeed, if you're higher up in
> the value chain in North America then you certainly do run the risk of
> losing your job because, for example,  A.I. research has to be pretty
> high up in the value chain I would suspect!!
>
> https://www.analyticsindiamag.com/ai-ml-research-breakthroughs-india/
>

Gary,

I am getting close to assuming malicious intent in your statements
right now. I have at no point in time put forth a dim view in the
indian value chain. Instead you have lowered the value of indian chain
by saying they will do it for cheap. I have constantly been advocating
for friends back in India to charge the same prices that people here
charge for the same skills. Why not? It is the same job. Please go and
reread what I said. Once you go up the value chain, you are able to
command the same dollar value, and that's when the risk of you losing
your job reduces.

Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

Dhaval, your dim view of the Indian value chain is unfounded because 
India is now ranked 3rd in A.I. research. Indeed, if you're higher up in 
the value chain in North America then you certainly do run the risk of 
losing your job because, for example,  A.I. research has to be pretty 
high up in the value chain I would suspect!!


https://www.analyticsindiamag.com/ai-ml-research-breakthroughs-india/

/gary




On 19-03-13 11:49 AM, Dhaval Giani wrote:

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:46 PM Gary  wrote:

No, I think YOU have misunderstood. When I download lectures I do so for
the sole purpose of entertainment and nothing more; I'm a senior
citizen. My thinking was that those individuals who enjoy science and
engineering can still indulge that interest and yet support themselves
with jobs that are unlikely to be outsourced. The alternative case of
spending a lot of money on a science or engineering degree to learn
science, which is their passion, just does not make sense because the
hope of establishing a career in the field before it gets outsourced is
unfounded in view of the fact that places like India have very talented
people who can do the job, do it better and work cheap!

I don't understand why you keep ignoring what I keep saying.

1. There are talented people everywhere
2. There are people who do things equally well and equally badly everywhere
3. For high quality work, no one works cheap.

So, if you are higher up the value chain, you are not going to lose
your job anytime soon.

Dhaval



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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 5:01 PM James Knott via talk  wrote:
>
> On 03/13/2019 11:59 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
> > And whose responsibility is that? The market will support what it
> > will. I pay my share of taxes to ensure that those who can't support
> > themselves are not left behind.
>
> And then we have people like Doug Ford, who cut taxes for the wealthy,
> while cutting support for those who need it.
>

well, that's a whole new can of worms, and I am not getting there :-).
Hopefully there is still an Ontario at the end of it :-)/


Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

2019-03-13 Thread Alvin Starr via talk


On 3/13/19 11:53 AM, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 03/13/2019 11:49 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:

So, if you are higher up the value chain, you are not going to lose
your job anytime soon.

Out of the population, how many will be higher up the value chain?  What
do the rest do?



In short.

They/You are screwed.

Its the result of work and business ethic that is from some time before 
1900.


Trying to turn back the clock has never really worked for anybody 
because there is someone out there who will keep their clock ticking and 
get up early to eat your breakfast.


--
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Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On 03/13/2019 11:59 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
> And whose responsibility is that? The market will support what it
> will. I pay my share of taxes to ensure that those who can't support
> themselves are not left behind.

And then we have people like Doug Ford, who cut taxes for the wealthy,
while cutting support for those who need it.

I don't like paying taxes any more than anyone else, but I'm not so
stupid or self centred as to think we can just cut taxes without serious
consequences.

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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:53 PM James Knott via talk  wrote:
>
> On 03/13/2019 11:49 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
> > So, if you are higher up the value chain, you are not going to lose
> > your job anytime soon.
>
> Out of the population, how many will be higher up the value chain?  What
> do the rest do?
>

And whose responsibility is that? The market will support what it
will. I pay my share of taxes to ensure that those who can't support
themselves are not left behind.

Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On 03/13/2019 11:55 AM, Dhaval Giani wrote:
> Another problem is that people are not willing to pay the actual cost
> of the goods. If you are to pay the actual cost of labour, the prices
> are quite a bit higher. An example is a restaurant meal. That labour
> cost is subsidized by tipping. Either we be ready to pay the actual
> cost, or we will continue seeing these shenanigans.
>
> (Still does not excuse the insane profit margins, but the reality is
> that as soon as these companies become more humane, the shareholders
> will drop these companies and the value will drop and our pensions
> will also drop)


That is a big part of the problem, putting money ahead of everything
else.  Another part of the problem is the nonsense that started with
President Reagan, that cutting taxes for the wealthy & corporations
means more for everyone.  It just doesn't work that way.  Never has,
never will.

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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:49 PM James Knott via talk  wrote:
>
> On 03/13/2019 11:22 AM, Dhaval Giani wrote:
> > What is this "good stuff" that is moving offshore? From what I can
> > see, stuff that is higher up the value chain is still in North
> > America, and is still going to remain here. And for a very simple
> > economic reason. It costs the same $ value.
>
> Well, I mentioned 3, IT, lab tests and law.  There are others.
>
> For many years, we were promised get an education and you'll always have
> a job.  It appears that no longer holds true as many areas, such as
> those I mentioned, are moving offshore.  What is someone starting out
> today supposed to do?  What will be the next area moved offshore?  Even
> some trades, such as aircraft maintenance are going.  We're heading into
> a situation where more and more people will be unable to support
> themselves.  Take a look at the news to find out about things like wage
> & wealth inequality, people unable to afford a decent place to live or
> even put food on the table.  And then look at where the money is going.
> Look at the super wealthy.  I mentioned Walmart.  In the U.S. they pay
> many of their employees so poorly that they need social assistance just
> to live.  One figure I recall was that each Walmart employee in
> Wisconsin costs the taxpayers some $4K per year.  Let's not forget that
> this is one of the wealthiest families in the U.S. being subsidized by
> the taxpayers.  One example of many.
>
> When people talk of cutting costs, they all too often forget about the
> cost of cutting costs.  Guess who it is that all too often is forced to
> pay for these "savings".
>

Well sure, and the US is a more complex case than just cost cutting.
Offshoring is just one part of it. The other problem is how the
immigration system works. In the name of protecting US jobs, you tie
work permits to just one company, and artificially lower salaries.
With free movement of labour, you are forced to pay market salaries.
Why should a company pay for an expensive visa, if the person will
just move to the next high paying job, when they can hire locally?

Another problem is that people are not willing to pay the actual cost
of the goods. If you are to pay the actual cost of labour, the prices
are quite a bit higher. An example is a restaurant meal. That labour
cost is subsidized by tipping. Either we be ready to pay the actual
cost, or we will continue seeing these shenanigans.

(Still does not excuse the insane profit margins, but the reality is
that as soon as these companies become more humane, the shareholders
will drop these companies and the value will drop and our pensions
will also drop)

Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On 03/13/2019 11:49 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
> So, if you are higher up the value chain, you are not going to lose
> your job anytime soon.

Out of the population, how many will be higher up the value chain?  What
do the rest do?

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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers


Okay everyone,


I believe this discussion is moved way off-topic and I don't think 
anyone would change anyone else mind at this point.


So we should leave it at that.


Alex.

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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:46 PM Gary  wrote:
>
> No, I think YOU have misunderstood. When I download lectures I do so for
> the sole purpose of entertainment and nothing more; I'm a senior
> citizen. My thinking was that those individuals who enjoy science and
> engineering can still indulge that interest and yet support themselves
> with jobs that are unlikely to be outsourced. The alternative case of
> spending a lot of money on a science or engineering degree to learn
> science, which is their passion, just does not make sense because the
> hope of establishing a career in the field before it gets outsourced is
> unfounded in view of the fact that places like India have very talented
> people who can do the job, do it better and work cheap!

I don't understand why you keep ignoring what I keep saying.

1. There are talented people everywhere
2. There are people who do things equally well and equally badly everywhere
3. For high quality work, no one works cheap.

So, if you are higher up the value chain, you are not going to lose
your job anytime soon.

Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On 03/13/2019 11:22 AM, Dhaval Giani wrote:
> What is this "good stuff" that is moving offshore? From what I can
> see, stuff that is higher up the value chain is still in North
> America, and is still going to remain here. And for a very simple
> economic reason. It costs the same $ value.

Well, I mentioned 3, IT, lab tests and law.  There are others.

For many years, we were promised get an education and you'll always have
a job.  It appears that no longer holds true as many areas, such as
those I mentioned, are moving offshore.  What is someone starting out
today supposed to do?  What will be the next area moved offshore?  Even
some trades, such as aircraft maintenance are going.  We're heading into
a situation where more and more people will be unable to support
themselves.  Take a look at the news to find out about things like wage
& wealth inequality, people unable to afford a decent place to live or
even put food on the table.  And then look at where the money is going. 
Look at the super wealthy.  I mentioned Walmart.  In the U.S. they pay
many of their employees so poorly that they need social assistance just
to live.  One figure I recall was that each Walmart employee in
Wisconsin costs the taxpayers some $4K per year.  Let's not forget that
this is one of the wealthiest families in the U.S. being subsidized by
the taxpayers.  One example of many.

When people talk of cutting costs, they all too often forget about the
cost of cutting costs.  Guess who it is that all too often is forced to
pay for these "savings".

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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

No, I think YOU have misunderstood. When I download lectures I do so for
the sole purpose of entertainment and nothing more; I'm a senior
citizen. My thinking was that those individuals who enjoy science and
engineering can still indulge that interest and yet support themselves
with jobs that are unlikely to be outsourced. The alternative case of
spending a lot of money on a science or engineering degree to learn
science, which is their passion, just does not make sense because the
hope of establishing a career in the field before it gets outsourced is
unfounded in view of the fact that places like India have very talented
people who can do the job, do it better and work cheap!

/gary

On 19-03-13 11:28 AM, Dhaval Giani wrote:

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:21 PM Gary via talk wrote:

Well, as I had indicated in an earlier email, it is a fact that from a
U.S. census 74% of those with STEM degrees do not work in STEM. This is
my authority.

However, even IEEE says that the "tech shortage" is just a myth:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/05/13/how_the_myth_of_a_canadian_skill_shortage_was_shattered_goar.html

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-myth-of-the-tech-talent-shortage-why-its-a-much-smaller-problem-than-vendors-say/

Gary,

I think you misunderstand what Alex says. How is it different saying
"only vocational training is worthwhile because spending money getting
an academic degree is useless" from "you don't need vocational
training, you can learn plumbing from youtube?". That is the ignorance
he is calling out.

I can attest to that. These are some very specialised fields. I have
worked with some very smart people, who have reinvented 50 year old
research because they don't have the academic CS background, and
refuse to learn from those mistakes. This is why you see software
becoming slower again :-).

Dhaval

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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

2019-03-13 Thread Digiital aka David via talk

Let me guess he worked for TATA.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 9:43 PM mwilson--- via talk  wrote:

>
> > Not to be left behind in an uncompetitive position, our Canadian
> > companies, too, are making great strides in reigning in costs by
> > shifting work offshore.
>
> A friend of mine had a job from hell for a while as Canada-side overseer
> of an India-based programming effort.  The job entailed being up all night
> to oversee, then being up all day explaining to management what was
> happening in India.  He's a smart, talented guy, but really, how good is
> *anybody* going to be working like that?
>
> ---
> Talk Mailing List
> talk@gtalug.org
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

2019-03-13 Thread Digiital aka David via talk

And that's what happened to me, I was a Dev for Rogers (The Cell side of
the biz) and they moved my work to India and said bye bye to me. As far as
I know after 1-2 yrs they brought the job back to Brampton. Because of the
issues where it would take double or more time to get things resolved
because of the time change, language.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 9:25 PM James Knott via talk 
wrote:

> On 03/12/2019 06:45 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
> > A number of years ago I read that India is generating more engineers per
> year
> > that the rest of the world combined. How good they are - - - - that's
> > another question.
>
> Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help
> desks etc. to India.  Many have come to regret that decision, due to the
> poor quality "help".  In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost
> ahead of value and we get garbage as a result.
>
> One very important question a lot are missing is who is going to pay for
> products, services, etc., when more and more of the jobs are moving
> overseas.  At one time, it was just cheap manufactured goods.  Now it's
> IT, legal and medical services and more.  When does it end?
>
> ---
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> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

2019-03-13 Thread Dave Collier-Brown via talk


On 2019-03-13 11:22 a.m., Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
> What is this "good stuff" that is moving offshore? From what I can
> see, stuff that is higher up the value chain is still in North
> America, and is still going to remain here. And for a very simple
> economic reason. It costs the same $ value.
> ---

I see the same, and in some cases (Emerson Electric, for example) the
work that was once outsourced to underpaid people elsewhere is being
brought back into the US and automated.

I used to have an eight-person team in India, and they were perfectly
good. A husband-and-wife team eventually moved to Canada and have been
successful here, with the wife being hired by my company and rising to
take over her department.

--dave

--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com |  -- Mark Twain


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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:21 PM Gary via talk  wrote:
>
> Well, as I had indicated in an earlier email, it is a fact that from a
> U.S. census 74% of those with STEM degrees do not work in STEM. This is
> my authority.
>
> However, even IEEE says that the "tech shortage" is just a myth:
> https://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth
>
> https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/05/13/how_the_myth_of_a_canadian_skill_shortage_was_shattered_goar.html
>
> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-myth-of-the-tech-talent-shortage-why-its-a-much-smaller-problem-than-vendors-say/
>

Gary,

I think you misunderstand what Alex says. How is it different saying
"only vocational training is worthwhile because spending money getting
an academic degree is useless" from "you don't need vocational
training, you can learn plumbing from youtube?". That is the ignorance
he is calling out.

I can attest to that. These are some very specialised fields. I have
worked with some very smart people, who have reinvented 50 year old
research because they don't have the academic CS background, and
refuse to learn from those mistakes. This is why you see software
becoming slower again :-).

Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

I don't think that one can statistically make the case that one nation 
or region of the world has better or less competent workers than any 
other for the simple reason that "in country" variation is far greater 
than the "between country variation". I think the more salient point is 
that there ARE very smart people in any region of the world and many of 
them want your job!!

/gary

On 19-03-13 11:12 AM, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 03/13/2019 10:59 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:

James Knott wrote

"

Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help
desks etc. to India.  Many have come to regret that decision, due to the
poor quality "help".  In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost
ahead of value and we get garbage as a result.

"

My comments are about how we were promised that if we moved into areas
such as IT, we'd be set for life.  The low cost work, such as
manufacturing cheap goods would be done offshore.  Well, it appears more
and more of the good stuff is also moving offshore.  A while ago, I was
reading how recent law grads were having trouble finding positions,
because the work they would have done is now being done in India.  I
also read about how medical lab tests are now also done elsewhere.  It's
getting to the point where the only jobs that aren't leaving are the
ones that can't be moved.  What happens to everyone else?

Incidentally, the trend to move stuff offshore started with U.S. General
Douglas MacArther.  When he was military governor of Japan, after WW2,
he realized that he needed to provide work, to prevent rebellion,
communism, etc..  To do this he promoted Japan as a source of cheap
labour to manufacture stuff for the U.S. and the rest of the world.  One
thing that has continued since then is a lot of the stuff from Asia, or
other low wage areas, is shoddy products.  Just take a look at the
clothes sold in Walmart.  At one time, they boasted that when you bought
from Walmart, you bought from your neighbours, as most of what they sold
was made in the U.S..  Now???

We're currently in the situation where the drive to cut costs is greatly
harming the economy, with more and more unable to properly support
themselves.




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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:12 PM James Knott via talk  wrote:
>
> On 03/13/2019 10:59 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
> > James Knott wrote
> >
> > "
> >> Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help
> >> desks etc. to India.  Many have come to regret that decision, due to the
> >> poor quality "help".  In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost
> >> ahead of value and we get garbage as a result.
> > "
>
> My comments are about how we were promised that if we moved into areas
> such as IT, we'd be set for life.

I fail to see how I can reach the conclusion you want me to by reading
your comment.

> The low cost work, such as
> manufacturing cheap goods would be done offshore.  Well, it appears more
> and more of the good stuff is also moving offshore.

What is this "good stuff" that is moving offshore? From what I can
see, stuff that is higher up the value chain is still in North
America, and is still going to remain here. And for a very simple
economic reason. It costs the same $ value.
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

Well, as I had indicated in an earlier email, it is a fact that from a
U.S. census 74% of those with STEM degrees do not work in STEM. This is
my authority.

However, even IEEE says that the "tech shortage" is just a myth:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/05/13/how_the_myth_of_a_canadian_skill_shortage_was_shattered_goar.html

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-myth-of-the-tech-talent-shortage-why-its-a-much-smaller-problem-than-vendors-say/

/gary

On 19-03-13 10:57 AM, Alex Volkov wrote:
I'm also going to chime in and say this point is pretty ignorant
implying that the only vocational work is worthwhile.

You say you have some understanding of science, programming, linux and
AI, but have you done anything that's been used by other people? Have
your received any feedback on your work? If not then whatever you've
done is just entertainment, this is an indulgence from your point of
view, and I don't believe you have authority to say this is not useful;

It's the same as if I were saying that no one needs vocational
training because there's a bunch of videos on youtube on how to fix
everything anyway and you can do everything by yourself; I'm a pretty
good plumber, I've fixed a faucet once.

Alex.

On 2019-03-13 10:10 a.m., Gary via talk wrote:
I believe the short answer is that if you live in North America, you
should avoid wasting money on a costly academic education, even if
you're very gifted, and, instead, focus on vocational training that
can never be outsourced, such as postal work, fire fighter, ambulance
paramedic and medical laboratory services. In that way there is a
clean bifurcation in the nature of work that is carried out between
here and India.

In this wonderful age, you don't have to spend a penny indulging your
interest in computer science, technology, physics and mathematics as
you have internet resources for that purpose. For example, I'm a
retired postal clerk but I entertain myself by downloading lectures
on these topics. I've taught myself c++ and I have lots of fun
developing applications in Linux. I have a passion for A.I and
mathematics but I know that, if you live in this country then these
studies can never be more than an indulgence, unless you have really
good connections; but then, in that case, you can just get a degree
in medieval history before taking the helm as CEO at some company,
which is what Carly Fiorinas did with HP.

https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2014/09/30/carly-fiorinas-medieval-history-major-inspires-young-female-conservatives

/gary

On 19-03-12 09:25 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 03/12/2019 06:45 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
A number of years ago I read that India is generating more
engineers per year

that the rest of the world combined. How good they are - - - - that's
another question.

Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help
desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to
the

poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost
ahead of value and we get garbage as a result.

One very important question a lot are missing is who is going to pay
for

products, services, etc., when more and more of the jobs are moving
overseas. At one time, it was just cheap manufactured goods. Now it's
IT, legal and medical services and more. When does it end?

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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On 03/13/2019 10:59 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
> James Knott wrote
>
> "
>> Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help
>> desks etc. to India.  Many have come to regret that decision, due to the
>> poor quality "help".  In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost
>> ahead of value and we get garbage as a result.
> "

My comments are about how we were promised that if we moved into areas
such as IT, we'd be set for life.  The low cost work, such as
manufacturing cheap goods would be done offshore.  Well, it appears more
and more of the good stuff is also moving offshore.  A while ago, I was
reading how recent law grads were having trouble finding positions,
because the work they would have done is now being done in India.  I
also read about how medical lab tests are now also done elsewhere.  It's
getting to the point where the only jobs that aren't leaving are the
ones that can't be moved.  What happens to everyone else?

Incidentally, the trend to move stuff offshore started with U.S. General
Douglas MacArther.  When he was military governor of Japan, after WW2,
he realized that he needed to provide work, to prevent rebellion,
communism, etc..  To do this he promoted Japan as a source of cheap
labour to manufacture stuff for the U.S. and the rest of the world.  One
thing that has continued since then is a lot of the stuff from Asia, or
other low wage areas, is shoddy products.  Just take a look at the
clothes sold in Walmart.  At one time, they boasted that when you bought
from Walmart, you bought from your neighbours, as most of what they sold
was made in the U.S..  Now???

We're currently in the situation where the drive to cut costs is greatly
harming the economy, with more and more unable to properly support
themselves.

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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 3:51 PM Gary  wrote:
>
> I think you've misconstrued the intent of our discussion.

o1bigtenor wrote

"
> A number of years ago I read that India is generating more engineers per year
> that the rest of the world combined. How good they are - - - - that's
> another question.
"

James Knott wrote

"
> Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help
> desks etc. to India.  Many have come to regret that decision, due to the
> poor quality "help".  In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost
> ahead of value and we get garbage as a result.
"

mwilson wrote

"
> A friend of mine had a job from hell for a while as Canada-side overseer
> of an India-based programming effort.  The job entailed being up all night
> to oversee, then being up all day explaining to management what was
> happening in India.  He's a smart, talented guy, but really, how good is
> *anybody* going to be working like that?
"

I am unsure how I have misconstrued the intention up there.

> The issue is
> worldwide labour arbitrage where production moves to the lowest cost
> region.  This is a reality that must be fully appreciated by those
> contemplating a career in North America. As you allude to in your
> rebuttal, it is a basic economic argument that is apparently lost on the
> massive hordes pursuing degrees  in computer science in this country.

And you have completely missed another important bit. None of the
important work is leaving the US (and as an extension North America).
If your job is leaving North America, that means you are not providing
enough value. These jobs pay the same either here, or there, in
absolute $ values, which is why they stay here. What goes away is
stuff that doesn't need much.

> No
> one here is trying to cast aspersions on the quality of Indian workers;
> rather, we see India as an up and coming force in the world by virtue of
> their favourable demographics. However, I don't believe that this view
> has been fully understood in this country.

Maybe you are saying that. That is not however what this thread is saying.

Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

I'm also going to chime in and say this point is pretty ignorant
implying that the only vocational work is worthwhile.

It's the same as if I were saying that no one needs vocational training
because there's a bunch of videos on youtube on how to fix everything
anyway and you can do everything by yourself; I'm a pretty good plumber,
I've fixed a faucet once.

Alex.

In this wonderful age, you don't have to spend a penny indulging your
interest in computer science, technology, physics and mathematics as
you have internet resources for that purpose. For example, I'm a
retired postal clerk but I entertain myself by downloading lectures on
these topics. I've taught myself c++ and I have lots of fun developing
applications in Linux. I have a passion for A.I and mathematics but I
know that, if you live in this country then these studies can never be
more than an indulgence, unless you have really good connections; but
then, in that case, you can just get a degree in medieval history
before taking the helm as CEO at some company, which is what Carly
Fiorinas did with HP.

https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2014/09/30/carly-fiorinas-medieval-history-major-inspires-young-female-conservatives

/gary

On 19-03-12 09:25 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 03/12/2019 06:45 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
A number of years ago I read that India is generating more engineers
per year

that the rest of the world combined. How good they are - - - - that's
another question.

Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help
desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to the
poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost
ahead of value and we get garbage as a result.

One very important question a lot are missing is who is going to pay for
products, services, etc., when more and more of the jobs are moving
overseas. At one time, it was just cheap manufactured goods. Now it's
IT, legal and medical services and more. When does it end?

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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

I think you've misconstrued the intent of our discussion. The issue is
worldwide labour arbitrage where production moves to the lowest cost
region. This is a reality that must be fully appreciated by those
contemplating a career in North America. As you allude to in your
rebuttal, it is a basic economic argument that is apparently lost on the
massive hordes pursuing degrees in computer science in this country. No
one here is trying to cast aspersions on the quality of Indian workers;
rather, we see India as an up and coming force in the world by virtue of
their favourable demographics. However, I don't believe that this view
has been fully understood in this country.

/gary

On 19-03-13 10:39 AM, Dhaval Giani wrote:

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 3:10 PM Gary via talk wrote:

I believe the short answer is that if you live in North America, you
should avoid wasting money on a costly academic education, even if
you're very gifted, and, instead, focus on vocational training that can
never be outsourced, such as postal work, fire fighter, ambulance
paramedic and medical laboratory services. In that way there is a clean
bifurcation in the nature of work that is carried out between here and
India.

In this wonderful age, you don't have to spend a penny indulging your
interest in computer science, technology, physics and mathematics as you
have internet resources for that purpose. For example, I'm a retired
postal clerk but I entertain myself by downloading lectures on these
topics. I've taught myself c++ and I have lots of fun developing
applications in Linux. I have a passion for A.I and mathematics but I
know that, if you live in this country then these studies can never be
more than an indulgence, unless you have really good connections; but
then, in that case, you can just get a degree in medieval history before
taking the helm as CEO at some company, which is what Carly Fiorinas did
with HP.

https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2014/09/30/carly-fiorinas-medieval-history-major-inspires-young-female-conservatives

/gary

I am not even going to begin by saying how wrong and how racist this
entire topic is.

I have worked with enough poor indian developers. I have also worked
with enough poor highly paid canadian, american and european
developers. They exist everywhere regardless of nationality.

I also worked with enough indian developers whose work would be
classified as poor while in India which magically turned to pretty
good when they started working in the US. I have also heard
interesting things being said by developers here about people in India
which spoke to how blind they were about situations outside of
Canada/US/Europe. (Part of it being, oh, open source is not about
passion to people in India, it is just a job. Well, it is, you know,
because they need food on their plates).

I am horrified that we are sitting here and talking about this.

If you are in the industry, then you are very much aware that is
mostly the grunt work that gets outsourced. If your job is getting
outsourced, then more likely than not, you are not that high up the
value chain. Sorry to break the news to you. Is it a nice thing? No,
absolutely not. I would not wish it on anybody. But the reality is, it
is basic economics. If it can be done for cheaper, and it is not
essential, "quality" (whatever that means), doesn't matter. Don't
begrudge whoever won that. Increase your own value. If you are doing
something essential, your job is not going to go away any time soon.
Let's not be racist and pick on someone other nationality.

Dhaval

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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 3:10 PM Gary via talk  wrote:
>
> I believe the short answer is that if you live in North America, you
> should avoid wasting money on a costly academic education, even if
> you're very gifted, and, instead, focus on vocational training that can
> never be outsourced, such as postal work, fire fighter, ambulance
> paramedic and medical laboratory services. In that way there is a clean
> bifurcation in the nature of work that is carried out between here and
> India.
>
> In this wonderful age, you don't have to spend a penny indulging your
> interest in computer science, technology, physics and mathematics as you
> have internet resources for that purpose. For example, I'm a retired
> postal clerk but I entertain myself by downloading lectures on these
> topics. I've taught myself c++ and I have lots of fun developing
> applications in Linux. I have a passion for A.I and mathematics but I
> know that, if you live in this country then these studies can never be
> more than an indulgence, unless you have really good connections; but
> then, in that case, you can just get a degree in medieval history before
> taking the helm as CEO at some company, which is what Carly Fiorinas did
> with HP.
>
> https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2014/09/30/carly-fiorinas-medieval-history-major-inspires-young-female-conservatives
>
> /gary

I am not even going to begin by saying how wrong and how racist this
entire topic is.

I have worked with enough poor indian developers. I have also worked
with enough poor highly paid canadian, american and european
developers. They exist everywhere regardless of nationality.

I also worked with enough indian developers whose work would be
classified as poor while in India which magically turned to pretty
good when they started working in the US. I have also heard
interesting things being said by developers here about people in India
which spoke to how blind they were about situations outside of
Canada/US/Europe. (Part of it being, oh, open source is not about
passion to people in India, it is just a job. Well, it is, you know,
because they need food on their plates).

I am horrified that we are sitting here and talking about this.

If you are in the industry, then you are very much aware that is
mostly the grunt work that gets outsourced. If your job is getting
outsourced, then more likely than not, you are not that high up the
value chain. Sorry to break the news to you. Is it a nice thing? No,
absolutely not. I would not wish it on anybody. But the reality is, it
is basic economics. If it can be done for cheaper, and it is not
essential, "quality" (whatever that means), doesn't matter. Don't
begrudge whoever won that. Increase your own value. If you are doing
something essential, your job is not going to go  away any time soon.
Let's not be racist and pick on someone other nationality.

Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Boeing India software engineers