date:20110605


Hi,

Nick Hocking wrote:
The only way, I see, out of this mess is for me to map a new set of 
residential roads, using my actual GPS tracks, alongside the nearmapped 
ones, make then properly routable, and maybe put a layer tag on them 
(for the moment) to ensure that routers don't confuse the issue.


Well if you are prepared to do this work, and if it is clear that the 
other mapper doesn't support the license change, and if you think simply 
staying with the current status for a while is not an option (since you 
need to add road name), then I'd just delete the other person's data and 
replace it with yours. The map will not be worse for it, and the other 
mapper can hardly complain.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means

2011-06-05 Thread John Smith

On 5 June 2011 21:40, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 Hi,

 Nick Hocking wrote:

 The only way, I see, out of this mess is for me to map a new set of
 residential roads, using my actual GPS tracks, alongside the nearmapped
 ones, make then properly routable, and maybe put a layer tag on them (for
 the moment) to ensure that routers don't confuse the issue.

 Well if you are prepared to do this work, and if it is clear that the other
 mapper doesn't support the license change, and if you think simply staying
 with the current status for a while is not an option (since you need to add
 road name), then I'd just delete the other person's data and replace it with
 yours. The map will not be worse for it, and the other mapper can hardly
 complain.

He is yet to back up his claims about people using the data, so far
I'm told the SES and other emergency services use their own
GPS/mapping solutions. So unless he can backup his claims he's only
going to be vandalising the map, and here you are cheering him along
after you so carefully worded things earlier to try and prevent any
kind of edit waring or map vandalisim.

As others have pointed out, the best way to handle the change over
would be to start a new database and copy data into it that is
allowable.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means


Hi,

John Smith wrote:

He is yet to back up his claims about people using the data


I don't think it makes a difference. If I have one set of data with a 
questionable copyright situation and no street names, and another set of 
data with street names surveyed by someone who agrees to the CT, there's 
no reason to prefer the former.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means

2011-06-05 Thread John Smith

On 5 June 2011 22:35, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 Hi,

 John Smith wrote:

 He is yet to back up his claims about people using the data

 I don't think it makes a difference. If I have one set of data with a
 questionable copyright situation and no street names, and another set of
 data with street names surveyed by someone who agrees to the CT, there's no
 reason to prefer the former.

He made the same claim to talk-au without backing up his assertions
when questions so his claims could be verified.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means

2011-06-05 Thread John Smith

On 5 June 2011 22:48, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 Where the claim was made has no relevance for my assessment that it does not
 make a difference.

As I said, you tried so hard to word thing to reduce the change of an
edit war and now you are cheering some along to do the exact opposite,
so I'd say it makes a lot of difference at this point in time.

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[OSM-legal-talk] PGS coastline

2011-06-05 Thread OJ W

My account used for importing PGS coastlines just got an email asking
that it agree to new contributor terms - has anyone already declared
this is OK during the import-checking phase of license change?

Asking on mailing list, since there should be about 32 other accounts
used for the import and controlled by other people, so presumably we
want them all to make a consistant decision.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] PGS coastline

2011-06-05 Thread Richard Weait

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 8:56 AM, OJ W ojwli...@googlemail.com wrote:
 My account used for importing PGS coastlines just got an email asking
 that it agree to new contributor terms - has anyone already declared
 this is OK during the import-checking phase of license change?

 Asking on mailing list, since there should be about 32 other accounts
 used for the import and controlled by other people, so presumably we
 want them all to make a consistant decision.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalog

PGS is the first listed in the import catalog page and marked as PD
and Okay.  Any reason to think otherwise?

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] PGS coastline

2011-06-05 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar

Isn't PGS in the public domain since it's a work of the US federal
government and in addition was automatically generated from Landsat
imagery, which is also in the public domain?


On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 8:56 PM, OJ W ojwli...@googlemail.com wrote:
 My account used for importing PGS coastlines just got an email asking
 that it agree to new contributor terms - has anyone already declared
 this is OK during the import-checking phase of license change?

 Asking on mailing list, since there should be about 32 other accounts
 used for the import and controlled by other people, so presumably we
 want them all to make a consistant decision.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] PGS coastline

2011-06-05 Thread OJ W

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalog

That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Is mail address legal@... valid?

2011-06-05 Thread Jukka Rahkonen

Michael Collinson mike@... writes:

Hi Jukka,

Yes, it is still in use and we read everything and we we do try to
respond. Have we missed something?

Mike
License Working Group
Hi,

It is just about a proper way of attributing OSM in a Web Feature Service (WFS).
I posted a question first to this mailing list on May 16th and then to the
members of License Working Group on May 20th and another try on June 1st. Not so
hurry to get an answer, I just wanted to know that the question has arrived and
the working group is aware about it. The service itself is up and configured now
so that the WFS service metadata includes links to OSM license page. I have also
a separate web page describing the service and OSM license in mentioned there as
well with.

Service metadata is always available from
http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfsversion=1.1.0request=getcapabilities
and it contains AccessConstraints section with the following text

Contains Map data from OpenStreetMap contributors
http://www.openstreetmap.org/
under CC-BY-SA license
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
Additional OpenStreetMap constraints
http://www.openstreetmap.orgcopyright?copyright_locale=en
Contains spatial data from the National Land Survey of Finland (NLS)
under NLS open license
http://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/ilmaisetaineistot

The data from the service do not necessarily contain any hint about the origin
of the data or the licenses. In WFS users are supposed to chech such things from
the service metadata. However, WFS services can be used without studying the
metadata throughly. An example of direct data access and the output:
http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfsversion=1.1.0request=getfeaturetypename=tows:osm_polygonmaxfeatures=1

-Jukka Rahkonen-

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Is mail address legal@... valid?

2011-06-05 Thread Michael Collinson

For me as a personal contributor, it looks great as is. It goes out with
every extraction(?). You are making attribution credit reasonable to
the medium (CC-BY-SA and CC-BY). You are crediting OpenStreetMap and
properly identifying the CC-BY-SA license. You also have a link to
http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright for second-level attribution ...
we are following exactly such an approach with all direct extractions
from OSM (Planet, CGIMap, Rails API); you should find the text in Planet
and CGIMap already. It will work with ODbL too.

You are not crediting all 400,000 OSM registrants in a manner at least
as prominent as such other comparable authorship credit. [1] but ODbL
fixes that. ;-)

Mike

[1] http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/legalcode Section 4(c)
last sentence

On 05/06/2011 16:33, Jukka Rahkonen wrote:
[snip]

Service metadata is always available from
http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfsversion=1.1.0request=getcapabilities
and it contains AccessConstraints section with the following text

-Jukka Rahkonen-

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means

2011-06-05 Thread SteveC

Sadly I agree.

Steve

stevecoast.com

On Jun 5, 2011, at 4:19, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote:

 The problem I have is a bit different.
 
 Someone (who has actively declined the CT) has been using nearmap to trace in 
 some roads under construction in the Canberra area. Some of these roads are 
 now complete and open to the public. 
 
 It would be pointless of me to add information to the nearmapped ways (E.G 
 it's name) since it seems certain that these ways will be deleted from OSM. 
 However it is critical that these roads appear on the map right now, so that 
 emergency services have access to the most up-to-date information available.
 
 The only way, I see, out of this mess is for me to map a new set of 
 residential roads, using my actual GPS tracks, alongside the nearmapped ones, 
 make then properly routable, and maybe put a layer tag on them (for the 
 moment) to ensure that routers don't confuse the issue.
 Once all the nearmap data has been removed then I would remove the layer tags.
 
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means


On 05.06.2011 02:09, Frederik Ramm wrote:

means for them. I know for a fact that among the current disagreeing
mappers there are some who intend to stay with OSM and who are just
holding out until the last minute; and I know there are some who simply
wanted to delay their decision until later.
These have actively declined the license. What about all these mappers 
who can't be reached any more? Anonymous edits (uid=0)?


I have some recent statistic of a comparably small community.
For Thailand currently 31% of all contributors (that are still visible 
in the planet as last author) have not responded. Of these 162 mappers a 
quite large number of 41 (25%) has not contributed over the past two 
years. Quite likely they won't respond to the email ever.

These edits sum up to 2,18 percent of the total nodes.

I have the feeling that remapping this data has a lot less potential for 
a conflict than remapping data of a somewhat active contributor who 
recently declined but may change his mind.


How to deal with these edits? What to advise in regard to abandoned 
accounts?


My statistic only counts contributions in this small area. for more 
reliable figures the global last edit date would be needed.


Stephan

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means

2011-06-05 Thread Michael Collinson

I am also very hesitant to have a specific date now and basically
support Kai's concept. Mostly the date thing is caution, I would like to
move to Phase 4 as soon as possible but think we can then take our time
getting as much ODbL coverage as possible. It is also disparate
situations. At one extreme is ripping out and not replacing data where
there may be a delayed solution available. At the other extreme, there
is a local mapper or mapping party fixing up their local area with
content equal to or better than a contributor who has clearly and
publicly stated that they have no intention of ever accepting. [BTW, we
will certainly make a full dump available upon the Phase 4 switch-over]

Since the unknowns and what-ifs are now falling away fast, I suggest we
focus in on what critical mass is and do what we can do to achieve it.
My initial criteria with some examples are:

- We should have the numbers. ODbL coverage weighted by size of
contribution is looking great [1] but we are not there yet. I would like
to have done our best to reach the large number of previous small and
lapsed contributors and had a response. This is just beginning to come
in this weekend. This may have important impact on local mappers.

- Local mappers and communities have had a chance to assess actual
rather than hypothetical impact in small areas and regions.

- Large-scale individual contributors who would like to accept the new
terms but feel they can't for some reason have been helped where
practical and possible.

- Where a specific import or derivation issue exists, short or medium
term possibilities have been exhausted. In Australia, we may get a
straight yes/no answer from Nearmap on keeping current contributions. In
the UK there is the ambiguous position of OS Streetview data. Champions
for individual blank and yellow tagged entries in
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue welcome.

Mike

[1] http://matt.dev.openstreetmap.org/treemap.png

On 05/06/2011 03:23, Kai Krueger wrote:

Frederik Ramm wrote:

Now I sense some uncertainty among mappers as to what phase 4 exactly
means for them. I know for a fact that among the current disagreeing
mappers there are some who intend to stay with OSM and who are just
holding out until the last minute; and I know there are some who simply
wanted to delay their decision until later.

Yes, there are a number of people who have declined to relicense as it is
the only way available to formally voice ones disagreement with any of a)
the new licence, b) the CT or c) the process. Nevertheless, they remain
adamant supports and enthusiasts of OSM. Just that they happen to disagree
with what is best for the project and without being able to see into the
future it is pretty much impossible to say for sure which cause of action is
the best for the project.

So it is important to try and not alienate either side as much as possible.
Phase 4 is critical in this respect, as it is the first time ones decision
has actual consequences for mappers and starts locking users out of the
project, some of whom have put a huge amount of effort into OSM to ensure it
has become a success and deserve everyones respect. So it is bound to give
bad blood and result in highly emotional debates.

Frederik Ramm wrote:

Do not delete and re-map anything beforedate. We will send out a
message to everyone who has not agreed to the license change, and inform
them that after that date, mappers are likely to purge non-relicensed
data and that if they want their data to remain, they need to redecide
before that date.

Out of the listed options, I would personally prefer this option most, as it
imho leaves the most options open. However, rather than a specific date, I
would advertise the date to be the time at which a critical mass is
reached. I.e. when it becomes clear that sufficient data has successfully
been relicensed that the damage due to data loss will be acceptable to the
overall project.

That then really is the point of no return at which one can start a graceful
damage control by replacing no relicensable data.

At that point I presume OSMF will decide on a formal date on which phase 5
will begin. In order to give all data users enough time to adapt to the new
license and consider the consequences, I would expect OSMF to set this date
at least a month or two in advance, which will then still give mappers a
reasonable amount of time to start fixing up the holes that the relicensing
process will produce in the data.

Kai

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Sent from the Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means

2011-06-05 Thread Ed Avis

I don't think that edit wars to deliberately change the licence status of bits 
of
map are the way forward - for either side.  It's just as unacceptable from the
pro-ODbL camp as from the pro-CC camp.

However, I can understand that if mappers believe that large amounts of data 
will
be deleted (which is a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent) then they will
want to recreate it.

One way might be to create a second, 'ODbL-pure' database where there is full
licence to rip out anything from contributors who don't support the ODbL change.
Then if this version of the map becomes better than the current OSM it can
replace it.  Indeed, that could be a gradual changeover rather than a big bang.

None of this reduces the need to reach out to all contributors, whichever side 
of
the licensing debate they are on, and for all sides to find a constructive way
forward rather than hardening positions and seeing who blinks first.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means

2011-06-05 Thread Maarten Deen


On 5-6-2011 2:09, Frederik Ramm wrote:


Any misunderstanding in this area will lead to friction: mapper A
thought he still had time to reconsider; but mapper B goes ahead and
deletes/re-maps A's work (possibly with less precision or other things
that A doesn't like). A, who intended to stay with OSM but was just
playing a little game of stubbornness and protest, is infuriated (how
could you throw away my super precise mapping!), and B has wasted his
time.


If that is your attitude towards the license change, then I really do 
not understand why all these phases are necessary. If the object of the 
game is to change the license regardless of anything, then just change 
it already.


Maarten

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means

2011-06-05 Thread James Livingston

On 5 June 2011 22:35, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

  John Smith wrote:

 He is yet to back up his claims about people using the data


 I don't think it makes a difference. If I have one set of data with a
 questionable copyright situation and no street names, and another set of
 data with street names surveyed by someone who agrees to the CT, there's no
 reason to prefer the former.


Being more accurate (traced from high quality imagery, versus GPS) could be
a reason to prefer the former.

I'm not certain about how the person in question would take this, but you'd
want to be careful not to get into edit wars about this. The original person
could quite easily put their more accurate ways back, and copy the names
from the newer ones (since they can be CC licensed).


Do we want to encourage people to delete perfectly good data because they
don't like the licence?


-- 
James
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means

2011-06-05 Thread James Livingston

On 5 June 2011 10:09, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 I know for a fact that among the current disagreeing mappers there are some
 who intend to stay with OSM and who are just holding out until the last
 minute;


As far as I can tell, doing that is the only way to say I don't like the
licence/CTs/process/whatever, but I will re-license my data. Accepting is
taking as a vote for liking the new license, and I quite a few people that
are going to do it at the last minute for this reason. The group of people
who want the new licence and the group of people that will accept the
licence isn't quite the same.


I for example have had to say No, because you now have to give an answer
to edit, but would almost certainly change that to a Yes at the last minute
(subject to figure out how to split incompatible data into it's own
account).

-- 
James
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Phase 4 and what it means

2011-06-05 Thread Mike Dupont

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote:
 On 05.06.2011 02:09, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 means for them. I know for a fact that among the current disagreeing
 mappers there are some who intend to stay with OSM and who are just
 holding out until the last minute; and I know there are some who simply
 wanted to delay their decision until later.

 These have actively declined the license. What about all these mappers who
 can't be reached any more? Anonymous edits (uid=0)?

 I have some recent statistic of a comparably small community.
 For Thailand currently 31% of all contributors (that are still visible in
 the planet as last author) have not responded. Of these 162 mappers a quite
 large number of 41 (25%) has not contributed over the past two years. Quite
 likely they won't respond to the email ever.
 These edits sum up to 2,18 percent of the total nodes.

 I have the feeling that remapping this data has a lot less potential for a
 conflict than remapping data of a somewhat active contributor who recently
 declined but may change his mind.

 How to deal with these edits? What to advise in regard to abandoned
 accounts?

Frederik the great is only interested in remapping  Silesia
(Schlesien) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_the_Great#Warfare
and does not care about the data loss, leader loss or anything else.
He seems to be almost joyful in his statements about finally getting
rid of these pesky and annoying people so he can do what he wants, it
always amazes me to read his postings.

but seriously, the license team is not concerned about porting the
licenses to other jurisdictions, but once you have signed the new
contributor terms, they will not ever have to ask you again. This
process is about you giving up all your rights, not them doing
anything for it in return.

The quality of the license is poor, the support in the open source
community is next to zero, the fragmented nature of the documents is
annoying, there are many unanswered questions as well, the missing
compatibility with creative commons is a serious roadblock, the way
the whole thing is being managed is a disaster.

But once enough people have signed away their rights the license can
be changed at whim and adjusted so that it will mostly work, and if it
does not, tough luck.

We, the osm fork team are working on preserving your work and your
contributions under the existing license. I personally wish that the
leaders of OSM were not so us against them, they are pushing people
out.  Osm fork now has the resources to host the tiles and also does
not have the bandwidth problems that osm does. The only thing that is
missing is a good rendering solution for drawing updates, we are
working on new software to do a better tiles at home to render in a
distributed fashion. When these things are in place your maps of
Thailand will not be lost, your data will be available and the tiles
will be usable also going into the future.

I wish that OSM was not so monolithic, but there does not seem to be
any compassion or understanding for allowing multiple tiles, multiple
license or multiple layers in osm proper. There is only one license,
one layer (ok two with cycllemap) and only one way, that way seems to
be pushed down on everyone.

What we really need is the ODBL to be a fork, an experiment that
should first work and then be an option, but the decision was made and
we cannot do anything about it.

With great sadness to I write these words and hope that you will all
have the strength and the courage to resist the pressure to give up
your rights and demand a fair treatment.

mike

-- 
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
flossk.org flossal.org

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Re: [OSM-talk] early OSM webmap request

2011-06-05 Thread Erik Johansson

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 1:31 AM, Steve Chilton s.l.chil...@mdx.ac.uk wrote:
 For my SOTMEU presentation I need an image of the OSM webmap prior to mapnik, 
 the old landsat +white lines version.
 I have looked on 'history' and 'featured images' on wiki but no luck.
 There are a couple of examples in blackadder and coast lecture presentations 
 in SVN but not really clear enough to use.
 Can anyone send me, or point me to, a suitable image (even the famous 
 Regent's Park one would be fine!)?

OSM Wiki has some uploaded images, and there wasn't that much activity
in 2005-2006.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListFilessort=img_timestamplimit=50asc=1

e.g.

Stockholm
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Stockholm-Openstreetmap.png

Oxford
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OxfordMap-20060604.jpg

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mail sending rate?

2011-06-05 Thread Michael Collinson


Hi Brice,

The first wave went out in batches over two days to about 14,000 
contributors who have edited during the 12 months.


The second wave going out now is to about 90,000 contributors who have 
made at least one edit but have not contributed over the last year. It 
started Friday UK time. We expect immediate response rate to be lower so 
it is going out faster. It is projected to finish Monday evening.  Once 
that is complete, every one who has ever made an edit but not accepted 
or declined the new terms should have been sent an email to their 
registered email address. A few questions and comments are coming in and 
we are trying to follow them all up individually.


Anyone curious can see the first text at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ODBL/2011_May_Letter_Translations


May I also squeeze in a public thanks to Tom Hughes who kindly made the 
process happen.


Mike

On 04/06/2011 21:11, eMerzh wrote:

Hi,
i've seen that the foundation has started to send mail about the license change.

the graph make by Toby Murray here
http://ni.kwsn.net/~toby/OSM/license_count.html show well the 2 phase
of mail sending.
I've also read that mails are send by wave instead of all in once...)

But, ...My question is pure curiosity : what is the time frame
dedicated to the mail sending  ? where are we now? what is the time
between 2 waves ?

anyone has any info on this?

Thanks

Brice

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Re: [OSM-talk] early OSM webmap request

2011-06-05 Thread Mikel Maron

Second slide has a shot over Brighton.
http://www.slideshare.net/mikel_maron/openstreetmap-brighton-0

 == Mikel Maron ==
+14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron





From: Steve Chilton s.l.chil...@mdx.ac.uk
To: talk@openstreetmap.org talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Sat, June 4, 2011 6:31:58 PM
Subject: [OSM-talk] early OSM webmap request

For my SOTMEU presentation I need an image of the OSM webmap prior to mapnik, 
the old landsat +white lines version. 

I have looked on 'history' and 'featured images' on wiki but no luck.
There are a couple of examples in blackadder and coast lecture presentations in 
SVN but not really clear enough to use.
Can anyone send me, or point me to, a suitable image (even the famous Regent's 
Park one would be fine!)?

Cheers
STEVE

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bandwidth limit/IP blocking - Error 303 on the OSM API?

2011-06-05 Thread Jaak Laineste

Hi,

 this reminded me an issue what I've had twice - I had made two
sessions of hands-on trainings for OSM, with about 30-40 computers in
a classroom. In both cases when they started to do actual data
download/editing, then last ones were rejected from API calls. Perhaps
just as we were under same IP address. You can imagine that having
this technical issue in front of the all the leading geography
teachers of our country can be quite embarrassing.

 Is there a procedure or contact to register an IP for temporary
higher load for such cases?

Jaak

2011/6/2 Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com:
 On 2 June 2011 03:42, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote:
 On Wed, 2011-06-01 at 22:18 +0100, Tom Hughes wrote:

 Yes, you got blocked on 16th May by the looks of it. I don't think I did
 it so it was probably one of my colleagues.

 Is there not some sort of audit trail or changelog for when users get
 blocked?


 Yes, there is an internal sysadmin audit trail.

 I think it would be useful if one could find out if theyre blocked or if
 there is some other server problem, without having to ask on the mailing
 list.


 API...
 HTTP Error 403 - Forbidden connection have been blocked. This is
 used on mass downloaders who degrade the API for mappers. [*]
 HTTP Error 509 - Bandwidth Limit Exceeded requested excessive
 amounts of data in a short period. Automatically removed after dropped
 below threshold.

 API + WWW served an average of 2529965 requests per day for May 2011.

 Tiles downloads are auto-magically slowed down after reaching a high
 threshold. Number of IP addresses currently being slowed down:
 http://munin.openstreetmap.org/openstreetmap/konqi.openstreetmap/squid_delay_pools.html
 Tile downloads are normally in excess of 1000 per second.

  Suggestions, work-arounds?

 Use the full history dump, as somebody has already suggested.

 Also, you can use the daily/minutely diffs if you want to keep up with
 'real-time' map edits.


 Yes. The replication diffs contain all the changes applied for the period.

 *: There is also an ancient release of JOSM blocked which flips
 lat/lon coordinates.

 Regards
  Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] early OSM webmap request

2011-06-05 Thread Floris Looijesteijn

There's one on the bottom of WikiProject The Netherlands:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Netherlands

Greets,
Floris

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Erik Johansson e...@kth.se wrote:
 On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 1:31 AM, Steve Chilton s.l.chil...@mdx.ac.uk wrote:
 For my SOTMEU presentation I need an image of the OSM webmap prior to 
 mapnik, the old landsat +white lines version.
 I have looked on 'history' and 'featured images' on wiki but no luck.
 There are a couple of examples in blackadder and coast lecture presentations 
 in SVN but not really clear enough to use.
 Can anyone send me, or point me to, a suitable image (even the famous 
 Regent's Park one would be fine!)?

 OSM Wiki has some uploaded images, and there wasn't that much activity
 in 2005-2006.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListFilessort=img_timestamplimit=50asc=1

 e.g.

 Stockholm
 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Stockholm-Openstreetmap.png

 Oxford
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OxfordMap-20060604.jpg

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Re: [OSM-talk] early OSM webmap request

2011-06-05 Thread Steve Chilton

Floris

Thanks for that.
Thanks to all who replied - I have several good examples to choose from now.

As an aside it does point up fact that it would be good if someone took bull by 
horns and wrote a definitive history of OSM, sooner rather than later whilst 
information, images etc are easily available (and no i am not the right person 
for that task!).

Cheers
STEVE

From: Floris Looijesteijn [o...@floris.nu]
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 8:14 PM
To: Steve Chilton
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] early OSM webmap request

There's one on the bottom of WikiProject The Netherlands:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Netherlands

Greets,
Floris

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Erik Johansson e...@kth.se wrote:
 On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 1:31 AM, Steve Chilton s.l.chil...@mdx.ac.uk wrote:
 For my SOTMEU presentation I need an image of the OSM webmap prior to 
 mapnik, the old landsat +white lines version.
 I have looked on 'history' and 'featured images' on wiki but no luck.
 There are a couple of examples in blackadder and coast lecture presentations 
 in SVN but not really clear enough to use.
 Can anyone send me, or point me to, a suitable image (even the famous 
 Regent's Park one would be fine!)?

 OSM Wiki has some uploaded images, and there wasn't that much activity
 in 2005-2006.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListFilessort=img_timestamplimit=50asc=1

 e.g.

 Stockholm
 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Stockholm-Openstreetmap.png

 Oxford
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OxfordMap-20060604.jpg

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bandwidth limit/IP blocking - Error 303 on the OSM API?


On 05.06.2011 20:46, Jaak Laineste wrote:

  this reminded me an issue what I've had twice - I had made two
sessions of hands-on trainings for OSM, with about 30-40 computers in

[...]

  Is there a procedure or contact to register an IP for temporary
higher load for such cases?


You could use offline data and load this into JSOM. To rely on online 
ressources for a training is always risky.


For doing test edits: Why not use the dev api? Then you won't have to 
worry about uploads breaking something.


Stephan

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bandwidth limit/IP blocking - Error 303 on the OSM API?

2011-06-05 Thread Serge Wroclawski

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote:
 On 05.06.2011 20:46, Jaak Laineste wrote:

  Is there a procedure or contact to register an IP for temporary
 higher load for such cases?

 You could use offline data and load this into JSOM. To rely on online
 ressources for a training is always risky.

In my experience, using Potlatch is easier. People can use their own
computers and they already have Flash, so we can begin immediately.[1]

 For doing test edits: Why not use the dev api? Then you won't have to worry
 about uploads breaking something.

When I've done this kind of training, it's been for a disaster, and we
need the real data, and the real api.

- Serge

[1] For the few times I encountered a Free Software person who
wouldn't use Flash, I told them the PL source was free, and directed
them to use Josm.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bandwidth limit/IP blocking - Error 303 on the OSM API?


On 05.06.2011 22:18, Serge Wroclawski wrote:

For doing test edits: Why not use the dev api? Then you won't have to worry
about uploads breaking something.


When I've done this kind of training, it's been for a disaster, and we
need the real data, and the real api.


In what way does the dev API differ from the real one that is affecting 
your training? Or is it just that there is not enough data available?
You can upload an extract of the area you are using into dev in advance 
to have data to play with.


Stephan

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bandwidth limit/IP blocking - Error 303 on the OSM API?

2011-06-05 Thread Serge Wroclawski

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote:
 On 05.06.2011 22:18, Serge Wroclawski wrote:

 For doing test edits: Why not use the dev api? Then you won't have to
 worry
 about uploads breaking something.

 When I've done this kind of training, it's been for a disaster, and we
 need the real data, and the real api.

 In what way does the dev API differ from the real one that is affecting your
 training? Or is it just that there is not enough data available?
 You can upload an extract of the area you are using into dev in advance to
 have data to play with.

Maybe my comment wasn't clear.

When I've done training for OSM, it's been in the context of a crisis
event when we had 20-40 people using areal imagery to examine an area
and map it. They would classify roads, detect destroyed buildings,
identify tent cities, etc.

The point wasn't just to train them in some abstract way, but to make
real change.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mail sending rate?

2011-06-05 Thread maning sambale

A good side-effect of this mass mails, is that I noticed some mappers
who haven't been editing over the last year.  Have become active
again.

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Michael Collinson m...@ayeltd.biz wrote:
 Hi Brice,

 The first wave went out in batches over two days to about 14,000
 contributors who have edited during the 12 months.

 The second wave going out now is to about 90,000 contributors who have made
 at least one edit but have not contributed over the last year. It started
 Friday UK time. We expect immediate response rate to be lower so it is going
 out faster. It is projected to finish Monday evening.  Once that is
 complete, every one who has ever made an edit but not accepted or declined
 the new terms should have been sent an email to their registered email
 address. A few questions and comments are coming in and we are trying to
 follow them all up individually.

 Anyone curious can see the first text at
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ODBL/2011_May_Letter_Translations

 May I also squeeze in a public thanks to Tom Hughes who kindly made the
 process happen.

 Mike

 On 04/06/2011 21:11, eMerzh wrote:

 Hi,
 i've seen that the foundation has started to send mail about the license
 change.

 the graph make by Toby Murray here
 http://ni.kwsn.net/~toby/OSM/license_count.html show well the 2 phase
 of mail sending.
 I've also read that mails are send by wave instead of all in once...)

 But, ...My question is pure curiosity : what is the time frame
 dedicated to the mail sending  ? where are we now? what is the time
 between 2 waves ?

 anyone has any info on this?

 Thanks

 Brice

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Re: [OSM-talk] early OSM webmap request

2011-06-05 Thread Russ Nelson

Steve Chilton writes:
  As an aside it does point up fact that it would be good if someone
  took bull by horns and wrote a definitive history of OSM,

Once upon a time, there was a boy and his map...

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Re: [Talk-de] Wohin Monsterrelation führen können + taggen von Grenzen (WAR: Konflikt mit Relation und Landesgrenze)

fly high wrote:
Bekomme ich für diese Relation auch nicht geöffnet !
dito,
ich glaube aber gelesen zu haben, dass das 2000-er limit -leider- nicht mehr
besteht (?)

es dauert halt nur ewig und klappt nicht immer. Ansonsten kann ich mir nicht
erklären, wie die Brüder da mehr als 2000 Member reinbekommen haben.
Eventuell ist das Limit auch bei 2048 2¹¹ ?

Habe mich mal ein bischen umgeschaut:
...
2. Was sollen eigentlich die ganzen name:left/right=,
region:left/right=, province:left/right= an den Grenzlinien. Sowas
gehört in eine Relation und nicht an die Linie.
nicht ganz. die Italien-Grenze ist eine MP-Relation; da brauchen die Member
outer und inner, damit die auch in Italien vorhandenen Enklaven und Exklaven
sauber erfasst werden.
Insofern ist das Feld member_type bereits belegt.
Left/right ist ihmo ne uralte Klamotte, die schon längst raus sollte

3. An Küstenlinien sollte nicht ein boundary tag geklebt werden, dazu
genügt die Grenzrelation.
na ja, stören tut's nicht, ist aber quatsch

Da diese Punkte wohl über Landesgrenzen hinaus zu diskutieren sind, ist
diese Mail wohl eher auf talk@ aufgehoben, aber Eure Meinung
interessiert mich trotzdem.
lob lob

Gruss
Walter

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Re: [Talk-de] Wohin Monsterrelation führen können + taggen von Grenzen (WAR: Konflikt mit Relation und Landesgrenze)

2011-06-05 Thread Chris66

Am 05.06.2011 11:20, schrieb Walter Nordmann:

 ich glaube aber gelesen zu haben, dass das 2000-er limit -leider- nicht mehr
 besteht (?)

Moin,
das 2000er Limit gilt für Nodes pro Way und sonst für gar nichts. ;-)

Chris


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Re: [Talk-de] Konflikt mit Relation und Landesgrenze

2011-06-05 Thread Markus


Hi und danke für Dein Engagement!


Kann Dir leider im Momment auch nicht weiter helfen


Ja, da scheinen einige Probleme dahinter zu lauern...

Habe die Sorge, dass je mehr Zeit zwischen Fehler und Behebung vergeht, 
desto mehr Konflikte auftreten, die dann kaskadisch wirken und sich 
irgendwann überhaupt nicht mehr entwirren lassen?


Gruss, Markus

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[Talk-de] OT: Re: Renderer Update-Frequenz

2011-06-05 Thread Schorschi



On Tue, 31 May 2011, Garry wrote:

 Damals wurde die Frage nach dem Atomausstieg auch noch anderst beantwortet als
 heute...

puh, der Vergleich hinkt aber gewaltig ... das musste ich jetzt mal 
loswerden ;-)

Schusch

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Re: [Talk-de] Wohin Monsterrelation führen können + taggen von Grenzen (WAR: Konflikt mit Relation und Landesgrenze)

jauu, jetzt wo du das sagst, fällt es mir auch wieder ein.
Ist also nur ein Server-Last-Problem.

Gruss
Walter

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[Talk-de] openstreetmap und qgis

hi,

ist auf den ersten Blick etwas OT, aber ich brauch etwas Unterstützung von
euch:

qgis http://qgis.org kann als GIS-System sehr viele Daten sehr schnell on
the Fly auf dem Schirm darstellen, wenn es an die Daten rankommt.
Das geht z.B sehr schön für die Shape-Files, die man ja mit entsprechender
Software aus OSM-Daten erstellen kann.

http://wnordmann.homeunix.com/images/stories/osm/forum/thumb/dach-al4.png

QGIS kann u. A. direkt auf Postgresql-Datenbanken zugreifen und die dortigen
Daten visualisieren. Das geht aber nicht bei den von OSM verwendeten. 
Das liegt daran, dass qgis keine langen ID's (int*8) unterstützt. Diese ids
sind bei den per Osmosis erstellten Schematas 64Bit 
und derzeit wird osm2pgsql ebenfalls auf 64Bit umgestellt, da zumindest die
Nodes in einiger Zeit zu groß werden.

Die QGIS-Entwickler sehen derzeit keinen Befarf, in qgis entsprechende
Änderungen zu machen. 
Ein entprechendes Ticket ist seit 5 Jahren offen. Auch heute bin ich bei
denen abgeblitzt.

Daher der Sinn der langen Rede: Macht bei den Brüdern etwas Druck und fragt
selber nach dieser Möglichkeit.

Gruss
Walter

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[Talk-de] Rampe / Auffahrt zu einem Schloss oder einer Villa

2011-06-05 Thread Albrecht Will

Moin,
helft mal bitte bei obigem tag. 
Da die Rampe wirklich 5 m breit und 40 m lang ist mit je 12 m langen Auffahrten 
von beiden Seiten, wollte ich sie schon als eigenständiges Bauwerk erfassen. 
Wäre das sinnvoll?
Albrecht

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Re: [Talk-de] openstreetmap und qgis


Hi,

Walter Nordmann wrote:

qgis http://qgis.org kann als GIS-System sehr viele Daten sehr schnell on
the Fly auf dem Schirm darstellen, wenn es an die Daten rankommt.
Das geht z.B sehr schön für die Shape-Files, die man ja mit entsprechender
Software aus OSM-Daten erstellen kann.


Es gibt auch ein OSM-Plugin, mit dem QGIS direkt, ohne Umweg ueber Shape 
oder PostGIS, OSM-Daten einlesen kann.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-de] Rampe / Auffahrt zu einem Schloss oder einer Villa

2011-06-05 Thread malenki

Albrecht Will schrieb:

helft mal bitte bei obigem tag. 

Welchem?

Da die Rampe wirklich 5 m breit und 40 m lang ist mit je 12 m langen
Auffahrten von beiden Seiten, wollte ich sie schon als eigenständiges
Bauwerk erfassen. Wäre das sinnvoll?

Ich nähme wohl:
highway=service
service=*
embankment=*
width=5
surface=*

/Nicht/ zu verwenden:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ramp

hth
malenki



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Re: [Talk-de] openstreetmap und qgis


Frederik Ramm wrote:
 
 Es gibt auch ein OSM-Plugin, mit dem QGIS direkt, ohne Umweg ueber Shape 
 oder PostGIS, OSM-Daten einlesen kann.
danke frederik,

war mir wohl bekannt, hab ich aber lange nicht mehr verwendet.

Der Zugriff auf die Postgres-DB ist für alle sinnvoll, die z.b. die bereits
vorverdauten Flächen verarbeiten wollen. Diese werden ja u.A. von
osm2pgsql aus den Rohdaten erstellt und liegen halt in der DB, die -noch-
auf 32 bit rennt.

Diejenigen, die eine mühsam aufgebaute Simple- oder Snapshot-DB haben,
schauen blöd aus der Wäsche. Und das sind nicht wenige im OSM-Land.

Gerade der Vorteil der Ad-Hoc-Auswertungen kommt hier nicht zum Tragen.
Die Visualisierung einer beliebigen Abfrage an die DB (z.B. Erfassung der
Rossmann-Filialen) wäre hiermit ohne grosse Umstände möglich. Ohne Rendern,
ohne OpenLayers, ohne Webserver, ohne ...
einfach DATEN -- SQL-Query -- Bild

Ich werd mir den Plugin nochmal ansehen, meine aber mich zu erinnern, dass
der eigentlich nicht zu gebrauchen war.

Die OSM-Daten in QGIS als direkt als Layer zu verwenden, hat schon was.
Dann bräuchte ich hier nicht den Umweg über Shapes zu gehen:

http://wnordmann.homeunix.com/images/stories/osm/forum/thomas1.png

Die aktuellen Shapes UND POLY-Files mit und ohne Buffer dieser Länder gehen
demnächst wieder online.

Gruss
Walter

p.s. die Schweizer sollten sich mal um ihre Boundaries kümmern; da sieht es
echt mau aus.






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Re: [Talk-de] openstreetmap und qgis



  http://wnordmann.homeunix.com/images/stories/osm/forum/thumb/dach-al4.png
 
sorry, link funktionierte nicht; sollte aber jetzt ok sein.

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[Talk-de] Navigation on osm data

Hello,

I am wondering if osm data contains information which helps rounting programs 
like navit to announce before a crossing which lane to take, when there are 
multiple lanes (e.g. one for turning left, one for straight or turning right). 
Deriving that simply from the angles the streets meet at the crossing does not 
work reliably

As an example see the bug report, I opened against navit:

http://trac.navit-project.org/ticket/870

Many thanks,
Rainer
-- 
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07157-734133
email: rdor...@web.de
jabber: rdor...@jabber.org
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Re: [Talk-de] Navigation on osm data

2011-06-05 Thread Chris66

Am 05.06.2011 17:23, schrieb Rainer Dorsch:

 I am wondering if osm data contains information which helps rounting programs 
 like navit to announce before a crossing which lane to take, when there are 
 multiple lanes (e.g. one for turning left, one for straight or turning 
 right). 
 Deriving that simply from the angles the streets meet at the crossing does 
 not 
 work reliably

Hi,
es gibt 1 oder 2 Proposals für Lane-Assist-Tagging ist aber noch kaum
in den Daten enthalten.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Lane_Assist

Chris



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[Talk-de] OT: Navigation on osm data

Hello,

I am wondering if osm data contains information which helps rounting programs 
like navit to announce before a crossing which lane to take, when there are 
multiple lanes (e.g. one for turning left, one for straight or turning right). 
Deriving that simply from the angles the streets meet at the crossing does not 
work reliably

As an example see the bug report, I opened against navit:

http://trac.navit-project.org/ticket/870

Many thanks,
Rainer
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[Talk-de] OT: Displaying Color Encoded Information in Track

Hello,

I would like to display color encoded information in a track. In my particular 
case right now, I would like to record signal strength with my cellphone. The 
easiest way to collect the data is for me a gps track and a table containing 
time and signal strenght.

My end goal is to have the signal strength encoded in the color of the track 
(similarly like josm may encode velocity in the color of the track).

Any input how to achieve this is welcome.

Thanks,
Rainer

-- 
Rainer Dorsch
http://bokomoko.de/


-- 
Rainer Dorsch
http://bokomoko.de/

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[Talk-de] OSM-Wochennotiz Nr. 46

2011-06-05 Thread Gehling Marc

Hallo,

die Wochennotiz Nr. 46 mit allen Neuigkeiten aus dem OpenStreetMap-Universum 
ist da: http://blog.openstreetmap.de/2011/06/osm-wochennotiz-nr-46/

Viel Spaß beim Lesen!
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Re: [Talk-de] Navigation on osm data

2011-06-05 Thread Kai Krueger


Rainer Dorsch wrote:
 
 I am wondering if osm data contains information which helps rounting
 programs 
 like navit to announce before a crossing which lane to take, when there
 are 
 multiple lanes (e.g. one for turning left, one for straight or turning
 right). 
 

Dazu gibt es gerade auch eine Diskussion im Forum
http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=12554

Ein Vorschlag um Turn lanes zu mappen ist
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/turn_lanes

Noch sind vermutlich sehr wenige Kreuzungen so getaged, aber wenn Navi
programme wie Navit  oder MapFactor Free[1] anfangen wuerden diese Tags zu
unterstuetzen, waere die Motivation sicherlich hoeher unter mappern diese
auch zu taggen. Das uebliche Henne und Ei problem.

Kai

P.S. hatte es einen Grund warum die mail auf Englisch geschrieben wurde?
Dann koente ich meine Antwort auch auf Englisch wiederholen.

[1] http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/29/traffic-lane-assistant/p1

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Re: [Talk-de] Evtl. Lösung für zu kleine Schrift bei nicht Lateinischem Alphabet


Hallo Peter,

On 31.05.2011 22:50, Peter wrote:

Aber wenn es hier keinen mit dem Font interessiert: auch gut, halt
Lösung ohne Problem:-)
mich interessiert schon eine Lösung, aber wir haben hier mit zwei 
verschiedenen Problemen zu kämpfen.


Dass in einem Font die Größen nicht passen lässt sich durch einen 
kombinierten Font wie du es beschreibst lösen.
Leider hilft das nicht bei dem Problem, dass in vielen Sprachen die 
Glyphen abhängig vom Kontext sind. Für das arabische gibt es wohl einen 
Workaround im Rendering Code, für andere aber nicht.


So lange das nicht gelöst ist hilft es auch nicht weiter einen passenden 
Font zu haben. Da muss die Rendering-Engine von Mapnik angepasst werden. 
Harfbuzz könnte ein Kandidat sein oder Pango.


Leider scheint das auf der Prio-Liste von den Mapnik Entwicklern relativ 
weit unten zu stehen.


Vielleicht geschieht ja noch ein Wunder und es implementiert jemand.
Für Python scheint es im ocitysmap schon gemacht zu sein:

http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/maposmatic/ocitysmap.git/tree/ocitysmap2/layoutlib/single_page_renderers.py

Stephan


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Re: [Talk-de] Navigation on osm data

Hallo Kai,

danke für die Antwort.

Am Sunday, 5. June 2011 schrieb Kai Krueger:
 Rainer Dorsch wrote:
  I am wondering if osm data contains information which helps rounting
  programs
  like navit to announce before a crossing which lane to take, when there
  are
  multiple lanes (e.g. one for turning left, one for straight or turning
  right).
 
 Dazu gibt es gerade auch eine Diskussion im Forum
 http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=12554
 
 Ein Vorschlag um Turn lanes zu mappen ist
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/turn_lanes
 
 Noch sind vermutlich sehr wenige Kreuzungen so getaged, aber wenn Navi
 programme wie Navit  oder MapFactor Free[1] anfangen wuerden diese Tags zu
 unterstuetzen, waere die Motivation sicherlich hoeher unter mappern diese
 auch zu taggen. Das uebliche Henne und Ei problem.

Ich werde die nächsten Tage mal eine Zusammenfassung der Antworten schreiben 
und dem navit bugreport anhängen. Bin nicht sicher, wann das implementiert 
wird, ich fürchte ich komme vor Herbst nicht dazu...

 Kai
 
 P.S. hatte es einen Grund warum die mail auf Englisch geschrieben wurde?
 Dann koente ich meine Antwort auch auf Englisch wiederholen.

Nur Gewohnheit, poste sehr selten auf deutschen Listen.

Danke nochmal und Gruß
Rainer

 [1] http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/29/traffic-lane-assistant/p1
 
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 tml Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
 
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Re: [Talk-de] OT: Displaying Color Encoded Information in Track

2011-06-05 Thread Sarah Hoffmann

Hi,

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 05:50:45PM +0200, Rainer Dorsch wrote:
 I would like to display color encoded information in a track. In my 
 particular 
 case right now, I would like to record signal strength with my cellphone. The 
 easiest way to collect the data is for me a gps track and a table containing 
 time and signal strenght.
 
 My end goal is to have the signal strength encoded in the color of the track 
 (similarly like josm may encode velocity in the color of the track).

Die StyleMaps von Openlayers sollten genau das tun, was du brauchst. Fuer
ein Beispiel siehe http://openlayers.org/dev/examples/stylemap.html

Grob gesagt musst du die Signalstaerke in die passende Farbe umwandeln und
als zusaetzliche Eigenschaft zum Trackpunkt speichern. Dann musst du eine
Stylemap laden mit:

[...]
  fillColor: ${signalcolor}
[...]

Wenn du die Farbe direkt in Javascript berechnen willst, musst du Style-Regeln
schreiben. Siehe http://openlayers.org/dev/examples/style-rules.html

Gruss

Sarah

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[Talk-de] ODbL im Wiki

2011-06-05 Thread Markus


Ich wollte grad jemandem die neue Lizenz ODbL erklären.

Im Wiki finde ich:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Open_Database_License
Dort steht etwas von Vorschlag und Abstimmung

Ich dachte, wir /haben/ bereits die ODbL?!

In obigem Wikitext findet man einen Link:
http://www.opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/
und eine inoffizielle Übersetzung:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Open_Database_Licence_-_Licence_Text

Aber die beiden Texte sind höchst unterschiedlich.

Vielleicht könnte die LWG den Text im Wiki so schreiben, dass er 
irgendwie konsistent ist?


Vielleicht liest ja hier jemand aus der LWG mit?
Oder vielleicht kann jemand diesen Bedarf weiterleiten?

Danke, Markus

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Re: [Talk-de] ODbL im Wiki