Re: [OSM-talk] software requirements for OSM Editor: Firefox

[Tom Hughes via talk]

On 06/10/2023 14:23, Martin Trautmann wrote:

On 23-10-06 14:24, Tom Hughes wrote:



Maybe it would be easy to avoid and maybe it wouldn't but until
we know what the actual problem is we can't tell and none of the
developers are likely to have such an old browser to reproduce
it even if they wanted to so unless you can provide more details
somehow it's not clear what can be done.



Apart from the info given before I do see an

Uncaught SyntaxError: expected expression, got '='

https://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/id-859874f88bc2e65931793d0d2edfb626917168cd008d86196e5b6fe2c88b39d5.js

:29:19029 



That's far more likely to be the main problem but you'd need to
ask the iD developers if they have any clue what it might be.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] software requirements for OSM Editor: Firefox

[Tom Hughes via talk]

On 06/10/2023 12:53, Martin Trautmann wrote:

On 23-10-06 13:41, Tom Hughes wrote:

On 06/10/2023 12:12, Martin Trautmann wrote:

On 23-10-06 12:55, Tom Hughes via talk wrote:

No it was released in June 2020. October 2021 was the last
security patches.

To answer the original question there have been any deliberate
changes that I know but given the error it's entirely possible
that FF has fixed something in what CSP rules it checks for what
requests.


I doubt that since FF did not see any changes here for some time,
unfortunately. So it appears to be from an OSM editor's change.


I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

My hypothesis is that something in iD has started using a data URL
where it didn't before and that is triggering a latent bug in your
version of firefox (in that it is checking that URL against the
media-src rule in our security policy) while newer versions of
firefox are checking it against some other rule.


Thanks - that does clarify the issue. But as you say, "something in iD
has started" - so it's a change within OSM's editor, which does break
old systems.

Maybe it's a reasonable and necessary change for ID - but maybe it isn't!



Without knowing more about which load is being blocked it's not
really possible to say more and I might be totally wrong as I'm
just guessing from the limited information available.



I agree - but I don't know where else to report this malfunction. It's
obvious that one part of this bug is an outdated FF version. But that
does not mean that those have to be excluded.


Nobody is deliberately excluding you but equally nobody is going
to spend hours trying to make it work either.

Maybe it would be easy to avoid and maybe it wouldn't but until
we know what the actual problem is we can't tell and none of the
developers are likely to have such an old browser to reproduce
it even if they wanted to so unless you can provide more details
somehow it's not clear what can be done.

We don't even know the CSP error in the console is the root
cause of your main problems - it might be incidental as a media
load failing doesn't normally cause total page failure.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] software requirements for OSM Editor: Firefox

[Tom Hughes via talk]

On 06/10/2023 12:12, Martin Trautmann wrote:

On 23-10-06 12:55, Tom Hughes via talk wrote:

No it was released in June 2020. October 2021 was the last
security patches.

To answer the original question there have been any deliberate
changes that I know but given the error it's entirely possible
that FF has fixed something in what CSP rules it checks for what
requests.


I doubt that since FF did not see any changes here for some time,
unfortunately. So it appears to be from an OSM editor's change.


I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

My hypothesis is that something in iD has started using a data URL
where it didn't before and that is triggering a latent bug in your
version of firefox (in that it is checking that URL against the
media-src rule in our security policy) while newer versions of
firefox are checking it against some other rule.

Without knowing more about which load is being blocked it's not
really possible to say more and I might be totally wrong as I'm
just guessing from the limited information available.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] software requirements for OSM Editor: Firefox

[Tom Hughes via talk]

No it was released in June 2020. October 2021 was the last
security patches.

To answer the original question there have been any deliberate
changes that I know but given the error it's entirely possible
that FF has fixed something in what CSP rules it checks for what
requests.

I don't see that error, and as far as I can see our policy only
allows data URLs for images and not for other media which suggests
no data URLs are being validated against media-src for me.

Tom

On 06/10/2023 11:34, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
Firefox 78 EST has reached end of life over year ago, see 
https://endoflife.date/firefox 


It was released in October 2021.

I would strongly encourage to update it for security reasons.
And would not be surprised if random things are breaking.

Oct 6, 2023, 11:54 by tr...@gmx.de:

Have there been any changes for a minimum software version to use
the openstreetmap editor?

I can still browse with my old firefox version 78.15.0esr, but when
I try to edit anything, the editor's area remains empty.

Inspecting the pages names "The page’s settings blocked the loading
of a resource at data: (“media-src”)."

id-container does not load any more, I suppose.

Anything from

https://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/id-859874f88bc2e65931793d0d2edfb626917168cd008d86196e5b6fe2c88b39d5.js
 causes an error here.



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Re: [OSM-talk] mapilio? (street-level imagery)

[Tom Hughes via talk]

On 24/05/2023 13:31, Greg Troxel wrote:


I just got spam from mapilio, implying that I was a "Mapilio
contributor".  This was, to my memory, the first I had heard of them.


There have been a handful of mentions on the forum of various lists
in the last few months.

I too just got spammed by them - quite ironic given the GDPR Compliant
logo at the bottom of every page on their web site.


Looking briefly, it seems like a corporate thing with proprietary
tooling.  They talk about an app in proprietary app stores but do not
mention F-Droid :-) The point seems to be to monetize crowdsourced
contributions, in a gamified/rewards-ish sort of way.


The address on the web site actually appears to be a coffee shop
in Andover so I think we can discount that as a mere correspondence
address. The web site appears to have been created by a non-native
speaker of english which points overseas.

Looking at their "custom iD editor" repository there is actually
a single commit from today to add their imagery which was done by
a user with a visiosoft.com.tr address so possibly they are the
people really behind it?

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] AT Email

[Tom Hughes via talk]

On 30/01/2023 13:25, Mike N. wrote:

Not sure where to report this but it seems that AT Email has placed 
OpenStreetMap Emails on the block list in the past week.


Might I suggest that AT Email would be the place to report it?

I mean I'm not sure what you think we can do about it remotely.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM and Google

[Tom Hughes via talk]

No it couldn't - the google problem he refers to was with
their authentication service not their DNS service.

Tom

On 14/12/2020 19:10, James wrote:

are you using 8.8.8.8 or 4.4.4.4 as a dns? could explain it.

On Mon., Dec. 14, 2020, 1:58 p.m. Niels Elgaard Larsen, > wrote:


Google services was down for an hour today. I noticed that at the
same time I could
not push my edits with JOSM due to "internal server error"

Was that a coincidence or do we somehow depend on Google?



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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM and Google

[Tom Hughes via talk]

On 14/12/2020 18:54, Niels Elgaard Larsen wrote:

Google services was down for an hour today. I noticed that at the same 
time I could not push my edits with JOSM due to "internal server error"


Was that a coincidence or do we somehow depend on Google?


It was a coincidence.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] Please SWITCH to Mailman 3 & hyperkitty

[Tom Hughes via talk]

That's just the instructions on how to migrate the data
and it doesn't cover anything related to actually installing
and configuring all the components of mailman 3 from a
quick look which is a big issue given that it's not packaged
and it's a not a single tool like mailman 2 but rather is
a collection of separate components.

Given that we're already looking at other things there is
no point in spending several months and many man hours on
attempting a migration to something that we have to install
from source and then try and keep up to date without any
upstream packages.

You're right that the UI tries to be a web forum but from
personal experience I can say that it fails - it's probably
a better UI as a simple archiver but it's no use as a way
of reading lists day to day. The only thing that's ever
got close to that is Discourse.

A bigger problem is that the UI for list owners is horrid.

Tom

On 14/12/2020 18:58, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:

Python's mailing lists use mailman 3:

https://www.python.org/community/lists/ 



What is the problem with the UI ? It seems far, far more useable than 
pipermail and hyperkitty feels like a forum.


If upgrading isn't possible, well then I guess bad luck. The mailman 
focs doesn't make it look that hard (is it skipping over OSM server 
specific steps that make the process harder?)


https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/migration.html 



Thanks,
IpswichMapper
--



14 Dec 2020, 18:45 by t...@compton.nu:

It's not going to happen.

Virtually nobody uses mailman 3 with the exception of Fedora
and I know from using it there that the UI is a disaster.

Also it's not packaged for Ubuntu and it's far more complicated to
deploy than what we have.

Don't think of mailman 3 as an upgrade - it's basically a
totally different product.

There is talk of a change, but it won't be to mailman 3.

Tom

On 14/12/2020 18:42, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:

Okay thanks, I'll contact him on github. I don't havd mailman
administration experience, or that much coding experience for
that matter. I was just suprised that we are stuck with 10+
years old cluttered pipermail when hyperkitty is actually useable.

-- 




14 Dec 2020, 18:37 by j...@liotier.org:

 From looking at the Mailman Chef cookbook at
https://github.com/openstreetmap/chef/tree/master/cookbooks/mailman
,
Tom Hughes is the person you should ask. If you have mailman
administration experience, maybe you could make it happen.


On 12/14/20 7:18 PM, ipswichmapper--- via talk wrote:


I was wondering if all the lists on
https://lists.openstreetmap.org

could be switched to Mailman 3 and hyperkitty (the newest
archiver).

Currently, pipermail is used to archive, and its UI is
*unusable*.
Comparatevely, hyperkitty is a lot more like a forum.

 From my experience, the mailing lists are *far more active*
than
the forum, so it would be good to have it searchable & more
accessible (the only downside to this is newer users might
use the
mailing list now. I don't think this is a downside, but I
understand why others would think so).

Also, Mailman 3 still gets updates, while *mailman2 is on
maintainance mode and won't recieve feature updates.*

I strongly recommend that the mailing lists are upgraded to
mailman3 with hyperkitty: this will make the mailing lists
so, so
much more useable.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Please SWITCH to Mailman 3 & hyperkitty

[Tom Hughes via talk]

It's not going to happen.

Virtually nobody uses mailman 3 with the exception of Fedora
and I know from using it there that the UI is a disaster.

Also it's not packaged for Ubuntu and it's far more complicated
to deploy than what we have.

Don't think of mailman 3 as an upgrade - it's basically a
totally different product.

There is talk of a change, but it won't be to mailman 3.

Tom

On 14/12/2020 18:42, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:
Okay thanks, I'll contact him on github. I don't havd mailman 
administration experience, or that much coding experience for that 
matter. I was just suprised that we are stuck with 10+ years old 
cluttered pipermail when hyperkitty is actually useable.


--



14 Dec 2020, 18:37 by j...@liotier.org:

 From looking at the Mailman Chef cookbook at
https://github.com/openstreetmap/chef/tree/master/cookbooks/mailman
,
Tom Hughes is the person you should ask. If you have mailman
administration experience, maybe you could make it happen.


On 12/14/20 7:18 PM, ipswichmapper--- via talk wrote:


I was wondering if all the lists on
https://lists.openstreetmap.org 
could be switched to Mailman 3 and hyperkitty (the newest archiver).

Currently, pipermail is used to archive, and its UI is *unusable*.
Comparatevely, hyperkitty is a lot more like a forum.

From my experience, the mailing lists are *far more active* than
the forum, so it would be good to have it searchable & more
accessible (the only downside to this is newer users might use the
mailing list now. I don't think this is a downside, but I
understand why others would think so).

Also, Mailman 3 still gets updates, while *mailman2 is on
maintainance mode and won't recieve feature updates.*

I strongly recommend that the mailing lists are upgraded to
mailman3 with hyperkitty: this will make the mailing lists so, so
much more useable.






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Re: [Talk-GB] Nominatim oddity

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

On 07/12/2020 17:23, Mark Goodge wrote:

This may be a dim question, and this may possibly be the wrong place to 
ask it. But, at the risk of being both dim and out of place... Why does 
Nominatim return "Britanniarum Regnum" as the country name for objects 
in the UK? For example:


https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/ui/details.html?osmtype=N=21279378=place 


Well it doesn't for me. Do you have your browser languages set to
prefer Latin or something (that's the name:la for the UK relation).

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Tom Hughes via talk]

On 02/12/2020 09:27, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Michal Migurski wrote:
 > FB’s attribution approach in keeping with best practices

seen from other commercial users of display maps.


In the spirit of Twitter footnoting one of Donald Trump's "I won the 
election" tweets, this is your respectful reminder that Google, Bing, 
Here, Tencent, ViaMichelin, TomTom, Mapquest, Esri, and Qwant all have 
on-map attribution.


The really curious thing is that of all of those, it is only Facebook
that manages to annoy our volunteers by causing them to receive what
are essentially support requests that should be going to Faceboook.

Something about the way Facebook attributes causes their users to
think that we are responsible for whatever problems they are having...

Tom

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

So that can't possibly be when the copyright expires, rather it's
a question of contractual provisions in a license agreement between
them and NLS not copyright as such.

Of course it's only claiming they do have a copyright that they
can make such a license necessary.

Tom

On 01/12/2020 09:49, Ken Kilfedder wrote:

Hi Tom,

IpswichMapper forwarded me this note, apparently received from NLS via an 
enquiry made by Rob-from-OSMF:


“I wish I could give you better news on the 1940s OS maps of south-east England.
Unfortunately, you’re right, they were scanned by a third-party commercial 
company
who have placed commercial re-use restrictions on this layer – there are further
details under our Copyright Exceptions list at
https://maps.nls.uk/copyright.html#exceptions. These restrictions will last for
another couple of years – until the end of 2022 – which I know might seem a long
way off, but hopefully will pass quickly. Then we’ll be happily able to share
them with the OSM community, along with the rest of England and Wales
National Grid 1940s-1960s mapping, that will be of interest too.”




---
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On Tue, 1 Dec 2020, at 9:41 AM, Tom Hughes wrote:

If we assume that a new copyright is created by the scanning (which is
a complicated question) then there is no way it expires next year.

What exactly do you think the term is for this copyright and when do
you think it starts from?

I don't think it's relevant anyway as I thought NLS had given us
permission to use their scans?

Tom

On 01/12/2020 09:32, Ken Kilfedder wrote:

SO,

It turns out - we cannot use these images until the scanner's copyright expires 
at the end of next year.  Happily, it seems like there will be GB-wide coverage 
available at that point, not just the London-Southend-Brighton area.

However, I have been happily using these images for a bit less than a year now, 
so I'm looking for advice on How to redact. I've tagged all the relevant 
changesets with the name of the TMS, so it should be possible.

1.  Is there an overpass syntax that would let me download (to JOSM) - all ways 
with addr:housenumber added or changed via a changeset with a certain source 
tag?  (and not updated by something else later)
2. Could I then wipe all such addr:housenumbers and re-upload?
3. Could I keep a JOSM session file around to reupload the addr:housenumbers 
once the scanner's copyright has elapsed?



This has come to light thanks to IpswitchMapper's tireless efforts to set up a 
tasking manager for adding housenumber, and thank to Rob-from-OSMF's 
communications with NLS.

---
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On Mon, 16 Nov 2020, at 10:55 AM, Ken Kilfedder wrote:

Hi Mark,

If there is absolute confidence in that, can it be added to the wiki page here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Library_of_Scotland

And can it be added to the default set of old maps in JOSM?

If it is available for use, not point in keeping it a secret.

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On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, at 6:47 PM, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:




Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:

  It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
  in NLS is available freely.

What are its licensing terms?

"available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"


It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving
data from it.

I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for
wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey.
House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets
are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number
in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still
the same.

Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

If we assume that a new copyright is created by the scanning (which is
a complicated question) then there is no way it expires next year.

What exactly do you think the term is for this copyright and when do
you think it starts from?

I don't think it's relevant anyway as I thought NLS had given us
permission to use their scans?

Tom

On 01/12/2020 09:32, Ken Kilfedder wrote:

SO,

It turns out - we cannot use these images until the scanner's copyright expires 
at the end of next year.  Happily, it seems like there will be GB-wide coverage 
available at that point, not just the London-Southend-Brighton area.

However, I have been happily using these images for a bit less than a year now, 
so I'm looking for advice on How to redact. I've tagged all the relevant 
changesets with the name of the TMS, so it should be possible.

1.  Is there an overpass syntax that would let me download (to JOSM) - all ways 
with addr:housenumber added or changed via a changeset with a certain source 
tag?  (and not updated by something else later)
2. Could I then wipe all such addr:housenumbers and re-upload?
3. Could I keep a JOSM session file around to reupload the addr:housenumbers 
once the scanner's copyright has elapsed?



This has come to light thanks to IpswitchMapper's tireless efforts to set up a 
tasking manager for adding housenumber, and thank to Rob-from-OSMF's 
communications with NLS.

---
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On Mon, 16 Nov 2020, at 10:55 AM, Ken Kilfedder wrote:

Hi Mark,

If there is absolute confidence in that, can it be added to the wiki page here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Library_of_Scotland

And can it be added to the default set of old maps in JOSM?

If it is available for use, not point in keeping it a secret.

---
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On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, at 6:47 PM, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:




Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:

 It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
 in NLS is available freely.

What are its licensing terms?

"available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"


It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving
data from it.

I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for
wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey.
House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets
are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number
in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still
the same.

Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Turn Restrictions at roundabouts

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

On 03/10/2020 16:57, Philip Barnes wrote:


They are intended to stop this type of routing
https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=graphhopper_car=52.64994%2C-1.20491%3B52.64983%2C-1.2049

Which is techincally not illegal and in real world usage is not going to 
happen.


But unless the start or end point is on the flare why would a
router do that over the shorter route on the roundabout... I mean
maybe there are a few cases where the flare is shorter somehow?

Tom

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Re: [Talk-GB] Turn Restrictions at roundabouts

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

On 03/10/2020 14:05, Brian Prangle wrote:

There seems to be a predilection for adding turn restrictions , either 
no right rurns or no U turns at the exit flares of roundabouts to 
prevent turning back into the entry flares where there are no explicit 
signed restrictions. I suspect this is "rendering for routers". Do 
routers actually need this data?  I'm tempted just to delete them all 
wherever I meet them, but I suspect there are thousands of them and 
there'll be howls of complaint.


Surely if there is a flare then the entry half of the flare will
be one-way against anybody turning off which should exclude it from
any consideration by a router?

Tom

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Re: [Talk-GB] Overpass query strangeness within iD

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

Hopefully I've fixed them on TW for the next update.

Tom

On 16/09/2020 12:44, Tom Hughes via Talk-GB wrote:

That would be because somebody on TranslateWiki has added a bunch
of bogus strings to the en-GB translation:

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/blob/master/config/locales/en-GB.yml#L621 



Tom

On 16/09/2020 12:00, Paul Berry wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't in edit mode so nothing to do with iD. I'm using the 
latest version of Chrome on Windows 10 and browsing to the standard 
https://www.openstreetmap.org site with Standard Layer selected and 
the Query tool used. You can see that everything's in en-gb (as I have 
set it), excepting the one search result in question, by viewing the 
screenshot here: http://pberry.me.uk/osm/osm_query.png


I've double-checked on other devices, operating systems, and browsers 
but the issue remains. I hope this helps to narrow down the problem.


Regards,
/Paul/

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 at 11:04, Nick via Talk-GB 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:


    Hi Gareth

    It was just a thought if that might have been the source

    Cheers

    Nick

    On 16/09/2020 10:12, Gareth L wrote:

    Hi Nick,

    Not in the example I cited.

    Gareth


    On 16 Sep 2020, at 10:03, Nick 
    <mailto:n...@foresters.org> wrote:

    

    Just out of curiosity, were these all mapped with the new version
    of the RapiD OSM editor https://mapwith.ai/rapid-esri?

    On 16/09/2020 08:18, Gareth L wrote:


    Morning Mateusz,

    __ __

    You’re right, it’s not encountered in edit mode.

    __ __

    4:

 1. “en-GB en”
 2. “en-GB”
 3. System Locale: en-us;English (United States)*

    Input Locale: en-gb;English (United Kingdom)

    __ __

    *damn, i’m normally better at keeping it en-gb!

    __ __

    Gareth

    __ __

    Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
    for Windows 10

    __ __

    *From: *Mateusz Konieczny <mailto:matkoni...@tutanota.com>
    *Sent: *16 September 2020 08:09
    *To: *Gareth L <mailto:o...@live.co.uk>
    *Cc: *Paul Berry <mailto:pmberry2...@gmail.com>; Talk GB
    <mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>
    *Subject: *Re: [Talk-GB] Overpass query strangeness within iD

    __ __

    1) it is not a bug of default style at all - what is displayed
    in tiles is not related

    (both are using OSM data and here similarities end)

    2) it is not a Mapnik bug - it is a library used by OSM Carto
    (default map style)

    3) it is not in edit mode, so it is likely not an iD bug (maybe
    it uses an iD 

    presets that have some bug)

    __ __

    Is it still visible in edit mode? The it may be an iD bug.

    __ __

    4) Which exactly language settings you have? 

    __ __

    (a) In OSM settings

    (b) In browser

    (c) In OS

    __ __

    For me this is not present,

    I see Polish description ("Budynek przemysłowy itp group
    <https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/414437370>") as I selected

    Polish as preferred language in OSM settings.

    __ __

    Sep 16, 2020, 08:57 by o...@live.co.uk <mailto:o...@live.co.uk>:

    Hi Paul,

    I’m not sure if the fault is with the ID viewer, mapnik, or
    overpass-api really. ID bugs can be reported/tracked through
    its GitHub repo https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD
    <https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD>

    For others curious, an example is go to
    https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.37824/-1.23676 and
    right click> query features on say, the ITP building or air
    ambulance. It will show “Индустриална сграда itp group” on
    the results where you choose which element you want more
    detail on.

    I’m not that familiar with the codebase but it looks like
    there has been quite a lot of activity in the localisation
    section, so it is possibly a recently introduced bug.

    Gareth

    *From: *Paul Berry <mailto:pmberry2...@gmail.com>

    *Sent: *16 September 2020 00:21

    *To: *Talk GB <mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>

    *Subject: *[Talk-GB] Overpass query strangeness within iD

    Hi all,

    Not sure who to direct this to so apologies for targeting
    the mailing list. However, I hope the right people can be
    found this way.

    If you use the query feature within iD (which uses the
    Overpass API) and point at a commercial building you get a
    Bulgarian label in the results set instead of an English
    one: Търговска Сграда, which translates as "commercial
    building" - there might be other cosmetic bugs out there.

    Regards,

    /Paul/

    __ __

    __ __


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Re: [Talk-GB] Overpass query strangeness within iD

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

That would be because somebody on TranslateWiki has added a bunch
of bogus strings to the en-GB translation:

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/blob/master/config/locales/en-GB.yml#L621

Tom

On 16/09/2020 12:00, Paul Berry wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't in edit mode so nothing to do with iD. I'm using the 
latest version of Chrome on Windows 10 and browsing to the standard 
https://www.openstreetmap.org site with Standard Layer selected and the 
Query tool used. You can see that everything's in en-gb (as I have set 
it), excepting the one search result in question, by viewing the 
screenshot here: http://pberry.me.uk/osm/osm_query.png


I've double-checked on other devices, operating systems, and browsers 
but the issue remains. I hope this helps to narrow down the problem.


Regards,
/Paul/

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 at 11:04, Nick via Talk-GB 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:


Hi Gareth

It was just a thought if that might have been the source

Cheers

Nick

On 16/09/2020 10:12, Gareth L wrote:

Hi Nick,

Not in the example I cited.

Gareth


On 16 Sep 2020, at 10:03, Nick 
 wrote:



Just out of curiosity, were these all mapped with the new version
of the RapiD OSM editor https://mapwith.ai/rapid-esri?

On 16/09/2020 08:18, Gareth L wrote:


Morning Mateusz,

__ __

You’re right, it’s not encountered in edit mode.

__ __

4:

 1. “en-GB en”
 2. “en-GB”
 3. System Locale: en-us;English (United States)*

Input Locale: en-gb;English (United Kingdom)

__ __

*damn, i’m normally better at keeping it en-gb!

__ __

Gareth

__ __

Sent from Mail 
for Windows 10

__ __

*From: *Mateusz Konieczny 
*Sent: *16 September 2020 08:09
*To: *Gareth L 
*Cc: *Paul Berry ; Talk GB

*Subject: *Re: [Talk-GB] Overpass query strangeness within iD

__ __

1) it is not a bug of default style at all - what is displayed
in tiles is not related

(both are using OSM data and here similarities end)

2) it is not a Mapnik bug - it is a library used by OSM Carto
(default map style)

3) it is not in edit mode, so it is likely not an iD bug (maybe
it uses an iD 

presets that have some bug)

__ __

Is it still visible in edit mode? The it may be an iD bug.

__ __

4) Which exactly language settings you have? 

__ __

(a) In OSM settings

(b) In browser

(c) In OS

__ __

For me this is not present,

I see Polish description ("Budynek przemysłowy itp group
") as I selected

Polish as preferred language in OSM settings.

__ __

Sep 16, 2020, 08:57 by o...@live.co.uk :

Hi Paul,

I’m not sure if the fault is with the ID viewer, mapnik, or
overpass-api really. ID bugs can be reported/tracked through
its GitHub repo https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD


For others curious, an example is go to
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.37824/-1.23676 and
right click> query features on say, the ITP building or air
ambulance. It will show “Индустриална сграда itp group” on
the results where you choose which element you want more
detail on.

I’m not that familiar with the codebase but it looks like
there has been quite a lot of activity in the localisation
section, so it is possibly a recently introduced bug.

Gareth

*From: *Paul Berry 

*Sent: *16 September 2020 00:21

*To: *Talk GB 

*Subject: *[Talk-GB] Overpass query strangeness within iD

Hi all,

Not sure who to direct this to so apologies for targeting
the mailing list. However, I hope the right people can be
found this way.

If you use the query feature within iD (which uses the
Overpass API) and point at a commercial building you get a
Bulgarian label in the results set instead of an English
one: Търговска Сграда, which translates as "commercial
building" - there might be other cosmetic bugs out there.

Regards,

/Paul/

__ __

__ __


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Re: [Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

If you think Bristol or Aberdeen are mad then try Norwich:

  https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/172506

Again presumably due to Norwich's history as a port and therefore
having control of the river.

Tom

On 12/09/2020 22:53, Russ Garrett wrote:

Yeah, I assume what happened is that the City of Bristol ended up, at
some point, as a statutory port authority (which I think they were
until 1991), and somehow the boundary from that has remained as their
local authority boundary. But it's still a fairly unique situation as
there are many other harbours with statutory port authorities where
this anomaly doesn't exist.

I'm fairly sure that Bristol boundary does not coincide with the
current limits of the Port of Bristol. Aberdeen has a small seaward
extension which also doesn't appear to coincide with their current
port authority limits either. So it's not clear what these seaward
extensions currently achieve.

I'd love to find the actual legislation which created this...

Russ

On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 at 22:24, Mark Goodge  wrote:




On 12/09/2020 21:23, Russ Garrett wrote:

I've foolishly now decided to try to get to the bottom of it - the
beating of the bounds still doesn't explain why exactly it covers that
area (although I'm impressed that the Lord Mayor managed to commandeer
a warship to do so!)


AIUI, it's because it's the historic maritime navigation route into
Bristol and Avonmouth. The simplified constituency boundary map is,
possibly a little bizarrely, one of the best visualisations of that:

https://members.parliament.uk/constituency/3368/location

See also this Admiralty chart for the Bristol Channel - you can see that
the "Bristol Deep" channel passes between the two islands and leads into
the harbour:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0278/1529/products/OCB-1179.jpg

Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Pedestrian priority and highway=cycleway

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

I suspect that the real clue is in the changeset tags:

  resolved:outdated_tags:incomplete_tags=10

So the iD validator has presumably claimed that the tagging of
those paths was "out of date" in some way and this was likely a
misguided attempt to fix that.

Of course that was likely based on some rule in the validator
that is trying push whatever daft path tagging the wiki is
currently trying to promote...

Certainly I think a polite enquiry would have been a better first
response than presuming malice.

Tom

On 03/09/2020 10:29, Robert Skedgell wrote:

A user has recently changed highway=cycleway objects in Queen Elizabeth
Olympic Park, London (QEOP) from highway=cycleway to highway=footway on
the ground that "Olympic Park paths are Pedestrian Priority".

In several places, the edited object no longer has a bicycle=* access
tag and segregated=no has been removed, which breaks cycle routing
through the path. I am unsure whether this is carelessness, or the
expression of an agenda which has no place in OSM. If the latter, this
is vandalism.

It also appears to be tagging for the renderer, as changing
cycleway->footway changes the path in OpenCycleMap from a blue dashed
line to a red dashed line.

Changes made by Skyguy in:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/89374106

Broken routing by missing access tags (not changing the highway=* tag
for now) fixed in:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/90351366

Most paths in QEOP are 3 metre wide gold-top asphalt (looks a bit like
surface=compacted and sometimes mapped as such) and there are no paths
on which cycling is prohibited. The paths are almost all included as
cycle tracks in the TfL CID export. QEOP is generally open to the public
24/7, but any part can be closed without notice for events.

I believe the most appropriate base tagging, following the duck tagging
principle for highway=*, for most of the paths in QEOP would be:
highway=cycleway + segregated=no + bicycle=permissive + foot=permissive

There is nothing in the Wiki which suggests that pedestrians do not
already have priority on unsegregated cycleways, so the edit seems
unnecessary.

The current Highway Code Rule 62 does not make this explicit, but
pedestrian priority seems a reasonable interpretation of: "Take care
when passing pedestrians, especially children, older or disabled people,
and allow them plenty of room. Always be prepared to slow down and stop
if necessary."
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82

The proposed new Rule 63 could also reasonably be read as strongly
implying pedestrian priority:
"Sharing space with pedestrians, horse riders and horse drawn vehicles.
When riding in places where sharing with pedestrians, horse riders or
horse drawn vehicles is permitted take care when passing pedestrians,
especially children, older adults or disabled people. Let them know you
are there when necessary e.g. by ringing your bell (it is recommended
that a bell is fitted to your bike), or by calling out politely.
Remember that pedestrians may be deaf, blind or partially sighted and
that this may not be obvious.
Do not pass pedestrians, horse riders or horse drawn vehicles closely or
at high speed, particularly from behind. Remember that horses can be
startled if passed without warning. Always be prepared to slow down and
stop when necessary."
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/review-of-the-highway-code-to-improve-road-safety-for-cyclists-pedestrians-and-horse-riders/summary-of-the-consultation-proposals-on-a-review-of-the-highway-code

BCC to DWG because of the impact in cycle routing.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Referential integrity of https://planet.openstreetmap.org/replication/minute//004/146/694.osc.gz

[Tom Hughes via talk]

On 12/08/2020 13:56, Roland Olbricht via talk wrote:


in the minute diff, in file
https://planet.openstreetmap.org/replication/minute//004/146/694.osc.gz
the way 40657824 uses node 7804408284, but that node is contained
neither in 694.osc.gz nor in any earlier minute diff.


It's in 693 as far as I can see?

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] Deprecated feature template in the wiki

[Tom Hughes via talk]

On 10/06/2020 13:07, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

This doesn't make sense. Why is the definition for the tag removed? Why 
should someone not " (semi-)automatically change “deprecated” tags to 
something else in the database" if these tags are completely synonymous 
as the template suggests?


It doesn't say you shouldn't change them - it says that such a change
is an automated edit that should follow the automated edit rules.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM nicknames are Unicode characters? (not Ascii?)

[Tom Hughes via talk]

On 28/05/2020 14:02, mbranco2 wrote:

I was surprised finding an OSM username written in gothic characters: 
I'm not sure if this mailing list could show such font, the 
nickname is 햒햆햘햙햗햔 ("mastro" in normal characters).
The problem is that, if you want to access this user profile, you've to 
copy and paste his name written with such font, searching with 
osm.org/user/mastro  give no results.


Isn't this an anomaly?



So we shouldn't allow people who don't use the latin
alphabet to register using names in their native language?

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] talk Digest, Vol 189, Issue 24

[Tom Hughes via talk]

I don't believe you can migrate to StackExchange - we would have to
start over if we went that route.

You definitely can't pay for a StackExhange site - they specifically
say that they no longer offer that.

Tom

On 20/05/2020 22:17, Allan Mustard wrote:
Simon, et al, if money is required from the OSMF, could not one of the 
working groups submit a funding request for migration to a new platform 
like StackExchange?  Microgrant is probably not appropriate for 
something like this.  Just my two cents' worth.


apm

On 5/20/2020 4:42 PM, talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:

Send talk mailing list submissions to
talk@openstreetmap.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
talk-ow...@openstreetmap.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of talk digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. Re: our Q site help.openstreetmap.org is dying
   (Mateusz Konieczny)
2. Re: our Q site help.openstreetmap.org is dying (Tom Hughes)
3. Re: our Q site help.openstreetmap.org is dying (Lester Caine)
4. Re: our Q site help.openstreetmap.org is dying (Simon Poole)
5. Re: our Q site help.openstreetmap.org is dying (Tobias Wrede)
6. Re: our Q site help.openstreetmap.org is dying (Frederik Ramm)
7. Re: our Q site help.openstreetmap.org is dying (Tobias Wrede)
8. Re: our Q site help.openstreetmap.org is dying (James)


--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 15:48:27 +0200 (CEST)
From: Mateusz Konieczny
To: Tobias Wrede
Cc: Talk
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] our Q site help.openstreetmap.org is dying
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"




May 20, 2020, 09:28 byl...@tobias-wrede.de:


Can we involve any of the OSM organizations to find, maybe pay, someone?


The question is about the plan. Life support for this specific platform?

It sounds like an endless pit that can consume plenty of resources,
but maybe I am too pessimistic.

Migrate to Stack Exchange? Even assuming that this company will agree
it has plenty of potential issues.

Wait for someone to volunteer and fix? It would be nice, but not sure what
are chances of that.
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:

--

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 15:12:58 +0100
From: Tom Hughes
To: Mateusz Konieczny, Tobias Wrede

Cc: Talk
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] our Q site help.openstreetmap.org is dying
Message-ID:<15f2bcdf-981f-19e7-224f-8b92f6574...@compton.nu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 20/05/2020 14:48, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:



Migrate to Stack Exchange? Even assuming that this company will agree
it has plenty of potential issues.

They have a public process for proposing new sites:

https://area51.stackexchange.com/faq

So long as enough people are interested it shouldn't be an issue. I've
been through the process with another site.

Tom



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Re: [OSM-talk] our Q site help.openstreetmap.org is dying

[Tom Hughes via talk]

On 20/05/2020 14:48, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:



Migrate to Stack Exchange? Even assuming that this company will agree
it has plenty of potential issues.


They have a public process for proposing new sites:

  https://area51.stackexchange.com/faq

So long as enough people are interested it shouldn't be an issue. I've
been through the process with another site.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] our Q site help.openstreetmap.org is dying

[Tom Hughes via talk]

Where on earth do you get the idea that they're using the same software?

They're not.

In fact OSQA and all the other similar open source projects are attempts
to recreate the Stack Overflow experience and they're basically all dead
or, if still on life support, then very poor clones.

Personally my preference would be to close help.osm.org and move to a
proper SO site via the Area 51 process which should be no problem for a
community of our size.

I imagine that will be unpopular with a subset of our users however.

The alternative if it's going to stay alive is that somebody needs to
find a way to migrate the data to something like Askbot that is at least
semi-conscious.

Tom

On 20/05/2020 13:52, Andreas Vilén wrote:
Stack overflow seems to use the same software and is highly active. This 
seems to be updated? Can't we update as they do?


https://stackoverflow.com/questions

/Andreas

On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 9:34 AM Tobias Wrede > wrote:


Hi,

we have several channels in OSM to facilitate discussions and support.
First touch point for new users is often help.openstreetmap.org
.
Questions relating to mapping in general, tagging, editors,
development,
OSM based applications are asked there and get answered in most cases.

The site is based on OSQA, a software which has not been maintained in
some time. Some application errors have surface in the past but had to
be ignored since no fixes are coming from OSQA any more. Until now we
could live with that. They were annoying but not critical. There are
open tickets on OSM github to move the help site to some other
framework
(https://github.com/openstreetmap/operations/issues/149,
https://github.com/openstreetmap/operations/issues/377) but there isn't
exactly an abundance of volunteers to take care of that.

Usability of help.openstreetmap.org 
has now seriously worsened over the
past few days with some js error popping up for longer and longer times

(https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/74831/why-does-the-add-a-new-comment-button-sometimes-not-work).

Buttons to support formatting questions and answers are gone, comments
cannot be added and moderation functions (reporting, converting
questions to comments etc.) are not working anymore.

If this continuous we can shut down the site soon. Even if this problem
got resolved somehow it's only a matter of time until a new problem
arises. The site provides a low entry hurdles place to ask questions
that can be solved by simple answers. I'd hate so see it gone.

I'm neither a programmer who could help out on the technical side
nor am
I involved in OSM organization and politics to have an idea on how this
could be sorted out. Question around: Can we find someone to take care
of the technical side? Can we involve any of the OSM organizations to
find, maybe pay, someone? Does the community even find it worthwhile
keeping the site?

cheers,

Tobias




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Re: [Talk-GB] List moderator - volunteers needed

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

On 14/03/2020 11:37, Dan S wrote:

Op za 14 mrt. 2020 om 11:20 schreef Tom Hughes via Talk-GB
:


On 14/03/2020 11:13, Rob Nickerson wrote:


As may have seen in Simon's response it sounds like we currently lack
list moderators. If this is something you would like to do please email
this mailing list.

Likewise we probably need to think about the criteria of what makes a
good list moderator. If there are any traits that you'd like to see in a
mailing list moderator please share with this mailing list.


Just to clarify what Simon said a bit before you all get carried
away, there absolutely is a list administrator and there is evidence
that they are processing the moderation queue.

That's not to say that they are actively reading the messages on
the list or applying any particular code of conduct.

It does mean however that you can't just choose somebody and ask
me to make them the list owner - you will need to try and make
contact with the existing list owner and discuss the situation
with them before attempting a putsch.


Do they read messages to the "owner" address more actively?
talk-gb-ow...@openstreetmap.org


I have no idea but hopefully.

Tom

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Re: [Talk-GB] List moderator - volunteers needed

[Tom Hughes via Talk-GB]

On 14/03/2020 11:13, Rob Nickerson wrote:

As may have seen in Simon's response it sounds like we currently lack 
list moderators. If this is something you would like to do please email 
this mailing list.


Likewise we probably need to think about the criteria of what makes a 
good list moderator. If there are any traits that you'd like to see in a 
mailing list moderator please share with this mailing list.


Just to clarify what Simon said a bit before you all get carried
away, there absolutely is a list administrator and there is evidence
that they are processing the moderation queue.

That's not to say that they are actively reading the messages on
the list or applying any particular code of conduct.

It does mean however that you can't just choose somebody and ask
me to make them the list owner - you will need to try and make
contact with the existing list owner and discuss the situation
with them before attempting a putsch.

Tom

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