Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
It is as if the map was meant to be made, not used: Regarding all this: A current theme in OSM development is to make editing easier, so more people map. Without any quibble with better design or better tools: I'd rather use the output of hundreds of dedicated mappers, as opposed to the leavings of thousands of new or one time editors. Perhaps there are some feature types, like wheelchair access, where casting a broad net makes sense. But for most areas editing OSM is a bit technical. It's not the tools, it's the culture, conventions, and sense of what needs mapping. If for every million new viewers of OSM, the community netted ten recurring mappers, that would be great. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
+1 for use of the word muggle On Jul 20, 2013 1:47 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Guillaume Pratte guilla...@guillaumepratte.net wrote: Hello, I have been a serious user of OpenStreetMap for less than six months, and I am proud to recently have achieved my one hundredth contribution to the project. I really love the OpenStreetMap project, and I would like to replace my daily usage of Google Maps with OpenStreetMap. But it just seems I cannot. Anybody else feel the same issues? I feel the same issues. But at the same time I think it unwise to try and play catch-me-if-you-can with Google. There are many tasks where OSM is better than Google Maps. I use OSM gladly for things like: * Natural area trail maps or tracking. * Non-commercial POIs (e.g. toilets, drinking water, viewpoints, tourist oddities, fun stuff) * Detailed maps in pedestrian zones. * Printing * Mapping fun. To date OSM is run by a group of mappers that caters to mappers. There is an unlikely but burning desire to somehow turn more ordinary muggles into mappers. It is as if the map was meant to be made, not used: and it's working. Of the people I talk to and show OpenStreetMap, the vast majority have never even heard of it, and that includes land management, GIS professionals, teachers and engineers all who could in theory be interested. What would drive more mapping would in fact be more passive users: some percentage will survive the test of fire on the tagging list and become mappers. OSM could offer high quality print exports, or one-click embeddable maps, or a dozen other compelling services. But someone would have to pay for all that bandwidth and user support, in order to glean a few more true believer mappers. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
-1 for use of the word muggle, I prefer 'potential community members'. For instance, as a JOSM user I don't need Potlatch or Id. And they do use up bandwidth and user support. I'm very happy though to be part of a community that has a rich culture of users/developers/mappers with a different perspective than I have, and thus created these editors for less experienced mappers. 2013/7/20 Kathleen Danielson kathleen.daniel...@gmail.com +1 for use of the word muggle On Jul 20, 2013 1:47 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Guillaume Pratte guilla...@guillaumepratte.net wrote: Hello, I have been a serious user of OpenStreetMap for less than six months, and I am proud to recently have achieved my one hundredth contribution to the project. I really love the OpenStreetMap project, and I would like to replace my daily usage of Google Maps with OpenStreetMap. But it just seems I cannot. Anybody else feel the same issues? I feel the same issues. But at the same time I think it unwise to try and play catch-me-if-you-can with Google. There are many tasks where OSM is better than Google Maps. I use OSM gladly for things like: * Natural area trail maps or tracking. * Non-commercial POIs (e.g. toilets, drinking water, viewpoints, tourist oddities, fun stuff) * Detailed maps in pedestrian zones. * Printing * Mapping fun. To date OSM is run by a group of mappers that caters to mappers. There is an unlikely but burning desire to somehow turn more ordinary muggles into mappers. It is as if the map was meant to be made, not used: and it's working. Of the people I talk to and show OpenStreetMap, the vast majority have never even heard of it, and that includes land management, GIS professionals, teachers and engineers all who could in theory be interested. What would drive more mapping would in fact be more passive users: some percentage will survive the test of fire on the tagging list and become mappers. OSM could offer high quality print exports, or one-click embeddable maps, or a dozen other compelling services. But someone would have to pay for all that bandwidth and user support, in order to glean a few more true believer mappers. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:45 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.comwrote: To date OSM is run by a group of mappers that caters to mappers. There is an unlikely but burning desire to somehow turn more ordinary muggles into mappers. It is as if the map was meant to be made, not used: and it's working. Of the people I talk to and show OpenStreetMap, the vast majority have never even heard of it, and that includes land management, GIS professionals, teachers and engineers all who could in theory be interested. What would drive more mapping would in fact be more passive users: some percentage will survive the test of fire on the tagging list and become mappers. OSM could offer high quality print exports, or one-click embeddable maps, or a dozen other compelling services. But someone would have to pay for all that bandwidth and user support, in order to glean a few more true believer mappers. I think you just created OSM new tag line, OSM is meant to be made, not used Adding muggle useable features would certainly be a step in the right direction. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
I've not followed this thread too closely, but arguably OSM is meant to be made not used. Nobody should use OSM on a daily basis; that's what MapQuest Open, MapBox et al are for. Using OSM on a daily basis would be like trying to read a dictionary as your only book: all the words are there, but the story is rubbish. /Devil's Advocate On 20 Jul 2013 16:16, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:45 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.comwrote: To date OSM is run by a group of mappers that caters to mappers. There is an unlikely but burning desire to somehow turn more ordinary muggles into mappers. It is as if the map was meant to be made, not used: and it's working. Of the people I talk to and show OpenStreetMap, the vast majority have never even heard of it, and that includes land management, GIS professionals, teachers and engineers all who could in theory be interested. What would drive more mapping would in fact be more passive users: some percentage will survive the test of fire on the tagging list and become mappers. OSM could offer high quality print exports, or one-click embeddable maps, or a dozen other compelling services. But someone would have to pay for all that bandwidth and user support, in order to glean a few more true believer mappers. I think you just created OSM new tag line, OSM is meant to be made, not used Adding muggle useable features would certainly be a step in the right direction. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Nobody should use OSM on a daily basis Oops, than I'm nobody. I use OSM data and one of the reference views of this data (Mapnik on osm.org) on a daily basis. That makes me a heavy user. And contributor, because the use of OSM data (mkgmap, thanks to the developers of this nice program and Geofabrik for their extracts) gives me feedback on routing errors. The map on osm.org is very handy to see the gaps in the data, like the routing errors I run in to, missing roads or POI's. By using JOSM, which uses a view of a certain area, I'm enabled to contribute, that is updating the records in the database, as in this Wikipedia article: :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_entry_clerk (though I'm not so pretty as the woman on the photo) 2013/7/20 Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com I've not followed this thread too closely, but arguably OSM is meant to be made not used. Nobody should use OSM on a daily basis; that's what MapQuest Open, MapBox et al are for. Using OSM on a daily basis would be like trying to read a dictionary as your only book: all the words are there, but the story is rubbish. /Devil's Advocate On 20 Jul 2013 16:16, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:45 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.comwrote: To date OSM is run by a group of mappers that caters to mappers. There is an unlikely but burning desire to somehow turn more ordinary muggles into mappers. It is as if the map was meant to be made, not used: and it's working. Of the people I talk to and show OpenStreetMap, the vast majority have never even heard of it, and that includes land management, GIS professionals, teachers and engineers all who could in theory be interested. What would drive more mapping would in fact be more passive users: some percentage will survive the test of fire on the tagging list and become mappers. OSM could offer high quality print exports, or one-click embeddable maps, or a dozen other compelling services. But someone would have to pay for all that bandwidth and user support, in order to glean a few more true believer mappers. I think you just created OSM new tag line, OSM is meant to be made, not used Adding muggle useable features would certainly be a step in the right direction. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Guillaume Pratte guilla...@guillaumepratte.net wrote: Hello, I have been a serious user of OpenStreetMap for less than six months, and I am proud to recently have achieved my one hundredth contribution to the project. I really love the OpenStreetMap project, and I would like to replace my daily usage of Google Maps with OpenStreetMap. But it just seems I cannot. Anybody else feel the same issues? I feel the same issues. But at the same time I think it unwise to try and play catch-me-if-you-can with Google. There are many tasks where OSM is better than Google Maps. I use OSM gladly for things like: * Natural area trail maps or tracking. * Non-commercial POIs (e.g. toilets, drinking water, viewpoints, tourist oddities, fun stuff) * Detailed maps in pedestrian zones. * Printing * Mapping fun. To date OSM is run by a group of mappers that caters to mappers. There is an unlikely but burning desire to somehow turn more ordinary muggles into mappers. It is as if the map was meant to be made, not used: and it's working. Of the people I talk to and show OpenStreetMap, the vast majority have never even heard of it, and that includes land management, GIS professionals, teachers and engineers all who could in theory be interested. What would drive more mapping would in fact be more passive users: some percentage will survive the test of fire on the tagging list and become mappers. OSM could offer high quality print exports, or one-click embeddable maps, or a dozen other compelling services. But someone would have to pay for all that bandwidth and user support, in order to glean a few more true believer mappers. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
On 12/07/2013 23:14, Simon Poole wrote: Nobody was claiming that doing any of the above is easy, but it is simply a question of organizing the necessary resources (mainly money). [..] Does the community really want to transform that to something closer to the top heavy Wikipedia model which would be a likely consequence of running a full consumer mapping site? Given the current budget, the issue of a bold foray into the web-scale provision of consumer services would resolve itself quite easily : the unsustainable project would soon implode and revert to its stable state of 'core OSM'. Sustainability is the elephant in the room, trumping even capex budget and developer resources. As Saint Exupery said, perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove. The question is not about what should be added to http://openstreetmap.org but what can't be done by third parties... The mission statement of the OSMF tells it all : running and protecting the OSM database, and making it available to all (http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Mission_Statement). Sustainability is a rather strong subtext behind the whole thing. Now why should OSM steal the application development business from institutions, companies, individuals and all the other sort of motivated entities who never needed to have their service featured on osm.org to run it happily ? Do you use applications on servers run by the Linux Foundation or do you just take the code from them to boot the kernel on your own hosts ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
On Sat, 13 Jul 2013 11:17:37 +0200, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote: Given the current budget, the issue of a bold foray into the web-scale provision of consumer services would resolve itself quite easily : the unsustainable project would soon implode and revert to its stable state of 'core OSM'. Sustainability is the elephant in the room, trumping even capex budget and developer resources. ... Isn't the obvious answer just to provide these services to logged-in users and if loads of people start creating accounts just to access free stuff them limit it to actual map contributors. It seems crazy to argue that the project cannot provide decent services to contributors because we would then have to service the entire world. That just isn't true. Kevin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
2013/7/13 o...@k3v.eu: Isn't the obvious answer just to provide these services to logged-in users and if loads of people start creating accounts just to access free stuff them limit it to actual map contributors. It seems crazy to argue that the project cannot provide decent services to contributors because we would then have to service the entire world. That just isn't true. Kevin It's not obvious at all, I even think this would have several negative effects: - rewarding contributions one way or another (like giving acces to some additional service) may push quite bad quality contributions (gamification for example is to be considered with a lot of caution) - reducing access over time to services may create a very negative image: imagine you have access to some service, then this access gets limited, usually this is not providing positive feedback - the more services will be on osm.org the less new interesting services will be created on top of OSM data somewhere else. OSM is not a project created to provide services to end users, it is a project to create/share data in order to build services on top of them. The existing slippy map is a limited way to show the tip of our iceberg. It already has some negative effect, with a lot of people not going further and thinking that OSM is just that : an open map of streets... when OSM is much much more. There are plenty of sites providing very interesting services on top of OSM data, and osm.org should allow visitors to discover them instead of replicating more or less these sites and services. -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France Un nouveau serveur pour OSM... http://donate.osm.org/server2013/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr wrote: It's not obvious at all, I even think this would have several negative effects: - rewarding contributions one way or another (like giving acces to some additional service) may push quite bad quality contributions (gamification for example is to be considered with a lot of caution) - reducing access over time to services may create a very negative image: imagine you have access to some service, then this access gets limited, usually this is not providing positive feedback - the more services will be on osm.org the less new interesting services will be created on top of OSM data somewhere else. OSM is not a project created to provide services to end users, it is a project to create/share data in order to build services on top of them. The existing slippy map is a limited way to show the tip of our iceberg. It already has some negative effect, with a lot of people not going further and thinking that OSM is just that : an open map of streets... when OSM is much much more. There are plenty of sites providing very interesting services on top of OSM data, and osm.org should allow visitors to discover them instead of replicating more or less these sites and services. I agree with you about gamification, there are plenty of people faking 4square [and similar] check-ins just to get badges, etc. I don't think osm needs that kind of thing. The main problem with mappers having to rely on third party sites is they all update with different schedules. I make a change to fix a routing problem, how long do I have to wait before a third party site is updated; hours, days or weeks? Kevin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Kevin Peat wrote: The main problem with mappers having to rely on third party sites is they all update with different schedules. I make a change to fix a routing problem, how long do I have to wait before a third party site is updated; hours, days or weeks? This is going to become a growing problem. The incremental updates from planet help a lot, but I think there is still room for improvement in replicating changes in the various satellite servers? Given how long it's taking me to create an INITIAL tile set for just the UK, I think it's already out of date, so how do I just update those tiles which have had an incremental change. Next thing on my todo list after creating a local dump that the routing software can use and pick up the corrections I've put in. If we can improve the replication process then there is less of a problem keeping third party sites up to date. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote What do I think? I think code counts - good quality, robust, deployable code. Routing will happen on the front page pretty much instantly if someone comes up with a top-quality UI and the resources to make it happen. So far they haven't. You can have all the mailing list discussions like this in the world, but they don't make anything happen in themselves apart from, usually, sapping the energy of those who _do_ code... OSM seems pretty good at drives to raise cash. How about a drive to find developers to fix some of these things? It seems to me that there are a lot of university departments getting free geodata of the backs of OSM contributors efforts and it would nice if some of them gave something back. Another benefit of a wiki style homepage might be that the top jobs needing developers could be exposed to a much wider audience than is the case right now. Kevin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Am 11.07.2013 20:16, schrieb guillaume: ... When I first read these sentences I was in shock. I had always assumed that the goal of the project was to create a free and open map that could be used by anyone. I can't speak for Steve, I suspect that the specific issue didn't cross his mind in the very early days. But at least for a long time the goal (even if not explicitly stated) has been to collect and create free and open map DATA that can be used by anyone. Now should there be a all singing and dancing map site based on OSM data? Absolutely! However we've expected that somebody other than (for lack of a better term) core OSM would take the OSM data and create such a site. MapQuest Open and the other sites that have been mentioned are examples where that has been done. What hasn't happened is that a larger player has gone full in, that may still happen, maybe it needs a parallel community effort, maybe it should be core OSM. As has been pointed out before, the competitive landscape has changed a lot with google becoming the near monopolist at least for online mapping services and maybe we have to rethink I would normally at this point out that we don't really have any role model to base our strategy on, wikipedia historically being the only major consumer and service provider using its data, and for that reason not being comparable to OSM, but that is naturally no longer true (google is very likely serving more wikipedia content to the public than wikipedia itself). Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
2013/7/12 Simon Poole si...@poole.ch Now should there be a all singing and dancing map site based on OSM data? Absolutely! However we've expected that somebody other than (for lack of a better term) core OSM would take the OSM data and create such a site. MapQuest Open and the other sites that have been mentioned are examples where that has been done. What hasn't happened is that a larger player has gone full in how large should that larger player be? Mapquest is a company founded in 1967 and controlled by AOL since 2000. Whom are we waiting for? Google (have their own mapmaker), apple (already using OSM to fill the gaps but giving nothing back, not even attributing correctly), bing (already pushing osm by donating global aerial imagery but AFAIK not using the data so far besides the german military areas incident), yahoo (they don't even link their maps from yahoo.com and the first four (!) hits in their own search for maps are google maps, so not sure how serious they are still into maps). ESRI? the near monopolist at least for online mapping services and maybe we have to rethink +1, as someone mentioned above, our traditional role models Navteq and Teleatlas also changed their strategy and are not mere data providers anymore. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Simon Poole wrote: As has been pointed out before, the competitive landscape has changed a lot with google becoming the near monopolist at least for online mapping services and maybe we have to rethink Cherry picking the quotes ... Google may be the 'first choice' but they are also in many cases simply the worse choice. One of my own use of OSM is to provide location maps for client websites. I make sure that they are on google and google+ but in MANY cases when you zoom in on google all you get is a white area and no indication of how to get to the premises. At the risk of being acused of advertising ... but in this case google also has duff info which we have tried to correct several times over the last year or so! http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.10962lon=-2.07388zoom=18layers=M https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=ohm%27s+mowersll=52.10966,-2.074407spn=0.001341,0.003707hq=ohm%27s+mowershnear=Broadway,+Worcestershire,+United+Kingdomt=mz=19 I then add a 'get directions' button to the contact page and take people to a routing engine that actually knows the road a building is on ;) I'm happy to serve up my own tiles if needs be (the new server has been rending the UK since Monday!), but the services available do the job quite nicely at the moment. Education is the key here, and I certainly think that while we NEED a good map server, making openstreetmap.org a link to a good getting started page does make perfect sense. and add map.openstreetmap.org for the map direct and keep wiki.openstreetmap.org as the documentation front page. http://switch2osm.org/ is actually a cleaner front end at the moment? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Hi folks, This is my quick interjection to give kudos to everyone in this conversation for keeping what could have become a hostile or defensive thread really constructive and forward looking. As someone who spends a lot of time complaining about this mailing list, you've all done an excellent job of proving me wrong here, so I stand corrected, and appreciate it! This is a really great community :) This seems like a good time to mention that on the talk-US list we're working on planning a Birthday Sprint in August to celebrate OSM's 9th birthday[1]. The general idea is for folks with software projects to gather their communities (or for folks looking to help to find a project that needs them) and take a weekend to write some code! It won't be an in-person event, necessarily, but I think there could be a real benefit from more eyes than usual being focused on development projects over the course of the August 10-11. In addition, we're working on making sure that there are tasks queued up for non-developers who want to participate. Anyway, it sounds like there are a lot of ideas on this thread that are already in progress, or are ripe to get started. So I hope that we'll be able to include them in the Birthday Sprint! Cheers, Kathleen [1] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2013-July/011355.html On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 5:25 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Simon Poole wrote: As has been pointed out before, the competitive landscape has changed a lot with google becoming the near monopolist at least for online mapping services and maybe we have to rethink Cherry picking the quotes ... Google may be the 'first choice' but they are also in many cases simply the worse choice. One of my own use of OSM is to provide location maps for client websites. I make sure that they are on google and google+ but in MANY cases when you zoom in on google all you get is a white area and no indication of how to get to the premises. At the risk of being acused of advertising ... but in this case google also has duff info which we have tried to correct several times over the last year or so! http://www.openstreetmap.org/?**lat=52.10962lon=-2.07388** zoom=18layers=Mhttp://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.10962lon=-2.07388zoom=18layers=M https://maps.google.co.uk/**maps?q=ohm%27s+mowersll=52.** 10966,-2.074407spn=0.001341,**0.003707hq=ohm%27s+mowers** hnear=Broadway,+**Worcestershire,+United+**Kingdomt=mz=19https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=ohm%27s+mowersll=52.10966,-2.074407spn=0.001341,0.003707hq=ohm%27s+mowershnear=Broadway,+Worcestershire,+United+Kingdomt=mz=19 I then add a 'get directions' button to the contact page and take people to a routing engine that actually knows the road a building is on ;) I'm happy to serve up my own tiles if needs be (the new server has been rending the UK since Monday!), but the services available do the job quite nicely at the moment. Education is the key here, and I certainly think that while we NEED a good map server, making openstreetmap.org a link to a good getting started page does make perfect sense. and add map.openstreetmap.org for the map direct and keep wiki.openstreetmap.org as the documentation front page. http://switch2osm.org/ is actually a cleaner front end at the moment? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
This thread is very vibrant. To add to that: it's my belief that a first time user will need a different experience from osm.org than you and me who are experienced OSM'ers and yes, it is possible to have clickable POI's with photo's: http://geschichtskarten.openstreetmap.de/historische_objekte/?zoom=13lat=52.53336lon=13.42035layers=BFT And now to the proof of the pudding: what's next, after this Wiki discussion gradually fades out. Here's my proposal for a process: let's get a group of dedicated community members together who want to take the time (a year or so) to assist in creating the desired design of the site, the technical infrastructure needed (in the cloud or not?) etcetera and to keep what very good people built into osm.org what is is now (compliments for them!): a speedy, good looking osm.org website. And let's give that group a name, for instance: ' osm.org project group'. It would definitely need one of the sysadmins, one of the persons from the Mapnik team, an OSMF member, Gregory Knisely from Mapquest and Saman Bemel Benrud from Mapbox. Correct me if I'm forgetting someone. And let's test that design in a sandbox by both first time users (your mother in law for instance :-) and experienced mappers.Till now in this thread 30 community members commented. Who has the dedication to join the osm.org project group? Cheers, Johan ps don't miss the presentation 'Refining a vision for OpenStreetMap.org' @ SOTM (Saturday 7 September) 2013/7/12 Kathleen Danielson kathleen.daniel...@gmail.com Hi folks, This is my quick interjection to give kudos to everyone in this conversation for keeping what could have become a hostile or defensive thread really constructive and forward looking. As someone who spends a lot of time complaining about this mailing list, you've all done an excellent job of proving me wrong here, so I stand corrected, and appreciate it! This is a really great community :) This seems like a good time to mention that on the talk-US list we're working on planning a Birthday Sprint in August to celebrate OSM's 9th birthday[1]. The general idea is for folks with software projects to gather their communities (or for folks looking to help to find a project that needs them) and take a weekend to write some code! It won't be an in-person event, necessarily, but I think there could be a real benefit from more eyes than usual being focused on development projects over the course of the August 10-11. In addition, we're working on making sure that there are tasks queued up for non-developers who want to participate. Anyway, it sounds like there are a lot of ideas on this thread that are already in progress, or are ripe to get started. So I hope that we'll be able to include them in the Birthday Sprint! Cheers, Kathleen [1] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2013-July/011355.html On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 5:25 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Simon Poole wrote: As has been pointed out before, the competitive landscape has changed a lot with google becoming the near monopolist at least for online mapping services and maybe we have to rethink Cherry picking the quotes ... Google may be the 'first choice' but they are also in many cases simply the worse choice. One of my own use of OSM is to provide location maps for client websites. I make sure that they are on google and google+ but in MANY cases when you zoom in on google all you get is a white area and no indication of how to get to the premises. At the risk of being acused of advertising ... but in this case google also has duff info which we have tried to correct several times over the last year or so! http://www.openstreetmap.org/?**lat=52.10962lon=-2.07388** zoom=18layers=Mhttp://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.10962lon=-2.07388zoom=18layers=M https://maps.google.co.uk/**maps?q=ohm%27s+mowersll=52.** 10966,-2.074407spn=0.001341,**0.003707hq=ohm%27s+mowers** hnear=Broadway,+**Worcestershire,+United+**Kingdomt=mz=19https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=ohm%27s+mowersll=52.10966,-2.074407spn=0.001341,0.003707hq=ohm%27s+mowershnear=Broadway,+Worcestershire,+United+Kingdomt=mz=19 I then add a 'get directions' button to the contact page and take people to a routing engine that actually knows the road a building is on ;) I'm happy to serve up my own tiles if needs be (the new server has been rending the UK since Monday!), but the services available do the job quite nicely at the moment. Education is the key here, and I certainly think that while we NEED a good map server, making openstreetmap.org a link to a good getting started page does make perfect sense. and add map.openstreetmap.org for the map direct and keep wiki.openstreetmap.org as the documentation front page. http://switch2osm.org/ is actually a cleaner front end at the moment? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact -
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
The important part is to understand that the current lack of end-user services is not because of lack of knowledge, technology or any thing similar, but by design. Umm, no, not really. It most certainly *is* because of the lack of knowledge, technology, time, people and many other resources. It is not easy to provide any non-trivial end-user services based on OSM data - mainly because there is *a lot* of data. Take any example, like clickable POIs, better history, routing, search. If anyone wants to take such services to Google Maps level (so search just works for a change) then it WILL be hard to implement. Don't spread misinformation that anything is by design. If there were people to tackle those hard tasks then would anyone say no because that's our design? I don't think so. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013, at 8:29, Simon Poole wrote: Guillaume I've answered some of your questions directly on your OSM blog. Here just some general remarks: at least since I've been involved with OSM and likely for a whole lot longer, the tension between what we have stated as the primary function of the main site, providing tools for our contributors to add and edit data, and the expectation that it should be something more google-ish has been very apparent. At times, mostly just to drive the point home, it has been suggested that it might be best to get rid of the map on the front page completely. Now I think there is some consensus that the Map is an important marketing tool that we need to attract more contributors, well at least keep them interested for a couple seconds so that we can tell them our story. But that is likely where the consensus stops and that is one of the reasons (outside of resources) why there hasn't been much visible expansion of services on OSM over the last years. Providing more services to end users would have a lot of consequences, for example it would start encroaching on the business of third parties providing such services now (we naturally already do this with the current site to a certain point), at least raising the bar of what you would need to provide to differentiate your service from OSM. Providing a full blown end-user site would also require substantially more resources than we have at our disposal and would likely mean that our current all volunteer model both for operations and administration would no longer be workable. There are some clear downsides to our current business model for example our main brand is not exposed as much as if we were running 4square, MapQuest Open etc., and on the other hand interesting services for end users that exist don't profit from the OpenStreetMap label as they could do. The important part is to understand that the current lack of end-user services is not because of lack of knowledge, technology or any thing similar, but by design. Now the communities thinking about that may change, but because we are travelling in largely uncharted territory, it is not a surprise that change comes slowly. Simon Am 09.07.2013 06:41, schrieb Guillaume Pratte: Hello, I have been a serious user of OpenStreetMap for less than six months, and I am proud to recently have achieved my one hundredth contribution to the project. I really love the OpenStreetMap project, and I would like to replace my daily usage of Google Maps with OpenStreetMap. But it just seems I cannot. Anybody else feel the same issues? I'll give a few concrete examples why, humbly hoping that my words can encourage changes to the main website. First point: searching. I have OpenStreetMap zoomed in to some region of Montreal, Canada. I input café, looking for a coffee shop. I get results from Nominatim, inviting me to visit a village in Brazil named Café or even the Café point in Antarctica. While these search results awaken my globetrotter's desire to explore the world, they frustrate me at the same time. Why couldn't Nominatim priorize results from the bounding box or surrounding? Why can't OpenStreetMap show me results on the map like the OverPass API does, performing a search on the tag amenity=cafe and showing the results on the map? Second point: accessing POI information. I cannot click on point of interests (POI) to get more info about them. Why do we input address, business hours and phone numbers on shops and restaurants if the map cannot easily display this information to the user? Why do I have to show the map's data in order to have information on a point of interest? Third point: maximum zoom level. Some area are densely populated, and OpenStreetMap's current zoom level is not enough to see all details of the map. This is really unfortunate. Example: http://osm.org/go/cIrNs6Qzp-- What are the restaurant surrounding the Hard Rock Café on this map? I have to use the editor to be able to zoom and see all data. Fourth point: sharing a point of
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Am 12.07.2013 21:48, schrieb Paweł Paprota: The important part is to understand that the current lack of end-user services is not because of lack of knowledge, technology or any thing similar, but by design. Umm, no, not really. It most certainly *is* because of the lack of knowledge, technology, time, people and many other resources. It is not easy to provide any non-trivial end-user services based on OSM data - mainly because there is *a lot* of data. Take any example, like clickable POIs, better history, routing, search. If anyone wants to take such services to Google Maps level (so search just works for a change) then it WILL be hard to implement. Nobody was claiming that doing any of the above is easy, but it is simply a question of organizing the necessary resources (mainly money). That however would likely have a number of consequences that have been considered undesirable, at least up to now. What we have proven is that we can gather detailed map data at a global scale and operate the necessary infrastructure with a very high level of reliability and availability with very little administrative overhead, on a shoe string budget and with community driven processes and for the major part by volunteers. Nobody else has done anything remotely similar. Does the community really want to transform that to something closer to the top heavy Wikipedia model which would be a likely consequence of running a full consumer mapping site? Don't spread misinformation that anything is by design. If there were people to tackle those hard tasks then would anyone say no because that's our design? I don't think so. I could point you to any number of EWG/OWG, board minutes etc that clearly support the statement, but I think reading this thread alone should be enough. Luckily the people working on stuff destined for the main site have had the sense to work on mapper centric stuff (which includes yourself), even Rolands clickable POI implementation is not geared towards your average pure consumer (undoubtedly it could be made to work in such a fashion though). Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Am 11.07.2013 05:08, schrieb Andrew Errington: On 11 July 2013 00:27, RainerU ra...@sfr.fr wrote: We should not start with the most difficult tasks. Lets take something easy, which exists, but is not accessible for non-initiated people: creating a marker and share it by mail. This is the most asked for function by people from outside the project an up to now I just can tell: It's easy. Go to the export tab, chose HTML incorporable, set the marker, copy the text in the output field and extract the string after the href attribute. I don't think this procedure is easy for most people. Nor do I. This is made for developers and other IT experts but not for common users. I think it would be easier to have something like 'permalink', maybe called 'markerlink'. If you click on 'markerlink' you would get a URL with mlat and mlon set to the centre of the map view. You could copy and paste this into email or chat or whatever. What I am proposing is what people need to indicate the location of their home or their in a mail. It could be done by moving the set marker function from the export section to the main map page and simplifying it, something like: click on set a marker, click on the map, a marker is created, you can move it around and get a link by right clicking on it. Rainer ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Hi, On 07/11/2013 05:08 AM, Andrew Errington wrote: I proposed this idea to the Mapnik team, and I wrote the code to do it, but it was rejected. This is how silly myths like OSM hates women because they rejected a childcare proposal get started - by leaving out 90% of something. Please don't do it - it helps nobody. If you have to mention that your proposal (which was not to the Mapnik team, btw.) was rejected, then also say why. Have you seen the new map UI proposed by the Mapbox team (http://mapui.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/)? If something along those lines were used, then there would be more than enough room for a markerlink in the share panel. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:25 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Have you seen the new map UI proposed by the Mapbox team ( http://mapui.apis.dev.**openstreetmap.org/http://mapui.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/)? If something along those lines were used, then there would be more than enough room for a markerlink in the share panel. Yes, that's exactly where I'm going with it. Preview: https://f.cloud.github.com/assets/98601/778982/12bfaae4-e9c1-11e2-8afa-826d25c371cb.png ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Simon Poole wrote: [ http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Zethradon/diary/19605#comments ] While we are not very clear about it, OpenStreetMap.org is mainly about collecting and editing our data and not about providing services to end-users. [ http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/thread.html ] The important part is to understand that the current lack of end-user services is not because of lack of knowledge, technology or any thing similar, but by design. When I first read these sentences I was in shock. I had always assumed that the goal of the project was to create a free and open map that could be used by anyone. I must admit I do not understand why a project that relies so strongly on user contribution not have the goal to attract its user base on a daily basis. How can users actively contribute to the map if they need to rely to a competitive service for their daily needs? How can they spot errors on the map when they are not even exposed to the data? Why is it only a minority of users that actively contribute to the map? [1] [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osmdbstats8.png Simon Poole wrote: [ http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/067503.html ] OSM providing such a site is simply a major policy change and it needs to be thought about and discussed in such a context and not in I want a feature on the main site squabbles. Then consider you can reinterpret my original message as a proposal to discuss such a policy change. Should the OpenStreetMap project invest time and energy to make a usable map on the main website? Should the map be abandoned altogether, and rendering of the map be left to third parties, like Skobbler or Open MapQuest? Or should, perhaps, a new, independent and community-driven project be started with the goal to propose a complete end user interface for map.openstreetmap.org, leaving the main project focused on the data? What do you think? Guillaume Pratte ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Guillaume Pratte wrote: How can users actively contribute to the map if they need to rely to a competitive service for their daily needs? No-one has said that. We want everyone to be using OpenStreetMap data. But OpenStreetMap is much more than openstreetmap.org. Just because it isn't on osm.org doesn't mean it's a competitive service. What do you think? What do I think? I think code counts - good quality, robust, deployable code. Routing will happen on the front page pretty much instantly if someone comes up with a top-quality UI and the resources to make it happen. So far they haven't. You can have all the mailing list discussions like this in the world, but they don't make anything happen in themselves apart from, usually, sapping the energy of those who _do_ code. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Using-OpenStreetMap-on-a-daily-basis-tp5768864p5769372.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Richard Fairhurst wrote: Guillaume Pratte wrote: How can users actively contribute to the map if they need to rely to a competitive service for their daily needs? No-one has said that. We want everyone to be using OpenStreetMap data. But OpenStreetMap is much more than openstreetmap.org. Just because it isn't on osm.org doesn't mean it's a competitive service. The competitive service I was trying to refer without naming it was Google. But, as a more important subject, I realized after reading your reply that I had highly lacked of respect to the OpenStreetMap developers and to the project itself in my previous email. I am not sure how I could think that writing such harsh word could contribute positively to the conversation. I want to sincerely apologize to everyone on the list. Thanks Richard for pointing it out. Guillaume Pratte ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
2013/7/9 Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk: Would a reasonable compromise be to provide links to projects that use osm? +1 There could be (few) direct links from the main map page to the wiki (e.g. get directions would link to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_based_Services#Routing (or better split the osm based services into smaller subpages). Another really basic thing of integration would be to expose osm ids for search. Right now when you search something you will get a marker on the position, but there is no direct link to an OSM object. The marker could be made actice and show info like for browse map data. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
2013/7/9 Michael Buege mich...@buegehome.de: Something like this? http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en great tool, would be cool to have a variant of this implemented on the main map. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Hey folks, This has been a really interesting and constructive conversation-- what I'm interested in is what we do next. There are a lot of really great ideas in here and I'd hate to see them just gathering dust. This raises a larger issue of figuring out how we as a community move forward when good ideas are put forth. I think it's natural for a project like this to adopt change (large or small) slowly, and to some extent, that's really beneficial (we wouldn't want rash decisions to grossly alter the course of the project without thinking through consequences). However, I think there's risk of becoming both risk- and change-averse, which can be really detrimental. Anyway, with my diatribe over, I'd like to return to the question of: now what? Cheers, Kathleen On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/7/9 Michael Buege mich...@buegehome.de: Something like this? http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en great tool, would be cool to have a variant of this implemented on the main map. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Kathleen Danielson kathleen.daniel...@gmail.com wrote: This raises a larger issue of figuring out how we as a community move forward when good ideas are put forth. I think it's natural for a project like this to adopt change (large or small) slowly, and to some extent, that's really beneficial (we wouldn't want rash decisions to grossly alter the course of the project without thinking through consequences). However, I think there's risk of becoming both risk- and change-averse, which can be really detrimental. OSM is a largely (though not entirely) a do-ocracy, which means that the way to look at something like this is to say I will , and that will bring forth the change I want, or if not the exact change I want, then at least make it a possibility. And some of these things you will be able to do, and some you won't be able to. Let's take a two examples: 1) Routing on the main site. 2) Addressing missing from OSM These are both often cited as reasons why OSM isn't usable on a daily basis. 1. Routing on osm.org Routing on the main site is something that's been worked on for at least a year, but I think it's been closer to two years. It's a problem that requires some amount of developer time, as well as sys-admin time, as well as computing resources to support. If you felt especially strongly about wanting it on osm.org (and not on your own site), you could work on it. Or if you didn't have the skill, you could pay for it, or if you didn't have the money, you could fundraise to pay for it. Or you're welcome to run for a position in something like the OSMF and convince your colleagues that this is worth spending organizational resources on. 2. Missing Addresses One of the other reasons that is often cited for why OSM is not usable by people is the lack of good geocoding, which is in part due to the lack of complete addressing in even some of our most mapped cities. There's a lot you can do here. The first, and most immediate thing would be to collect addresses. I suggest everyone do that if they can, if not of addresses in general, then at least of POIs they care about. But if that's not enough (and even I don't think that will be enough), then you could try to get address data from your local government office and work with the US Import Committee (because you're in the US) and create a process for importing that data. That process is non-trivial, and requires a lot of work in terms of data analysis, refinement of the data, multiple iterations of the data source, learning new software (since we have awesome address conflation software written by community members), coming up with an update plan, etc. In other words, if you, or anyone else, has an itch that they feel needs scratching, that they feel is a real barrier to their either personal or professional adoption of OSM, then the path is clear. And if your solution is useful, people will get behind it. - Serge The question isn't What will we do, but rather What will you do? Anyway, with my diatribe over, I'd like to return to the question of: now what? Cheers, Kathleen On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/7/9 Michael Buege mich...@buegehome.de: Something like this? http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en great tool, would be cool to have a variant of this implemented on the main map. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Am 10.07.2013 15:31, schrieb Kathleen Danielson: Hey folks, This has been a really interesting and constructive conversation-- what I'm interested in is what we do next. There are a lot of really great ideas in here and I'd hate to see them just gathering dust. This raises a larger issue of figuring out how we as a community move forward when good ideas are put forth. I think it's natural for a project like this to adopt change (large or small) slowly, and to some extent, that's really beneficial (we wouldn't want rash decisions to grossly alter the course of the project without thinking through consequences). However, I think there's risk of becoming both risk- and change-averse, which can be really detrimental. Anyway, with my diatribe over, I'd like to return to the question of: now what? A documentation on the discussion and solutions/wishes would be a good starting point. I am not sure how well the ticket system is used for the front page but for many discussions it would be helpful to have some summarizing available. Even only a link list will help everyone to get a faster overview than starting researching manually. Maybe on the wiki ? fly signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
2013/7/10 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com: 1. Routing on osm.org Routing on the main site is something that's been worked on for at least a year, but I think it's been closer to two years. It's a problem that requires some amount of developer time, as well as sys-admin time, as well as computing resources to support. Yes, this is known and many people are probably waiting for this, but it takes much less time and work to set up one (or a few) link(s) from the map to osm based services # routing etc. in the wiki, but we would have to know if we want this to happen, and if yes for what kind of uses/wiki pages. Who could decide on this, SWG? The board? Is there a process to propose this? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Martin-- Excellent questions :) For my own part, I can't see any reason why we couldn't create all of these resources on the wiki, if they don't exist already. I'm wondering if there's a more official way we want to display them. To some extent this goes back to the question of the landing page, re: how people are introduced to OSM. That's a much larger discussion, but in the mean time, how about we set up a wiki page that lists these resources? On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/7/10 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com: 1. Routing on osm.org Routing on the main site is something that's been worked on for at least a year, but I think it's been closer to two years. It's a problem that requires some amount of developer time, as well as sys-admin time, as well as computing resources to support. Yes, this is known and many people are probably waiting for this, but it takes much less time and work to set up one (or a few) link(s) from the map to osm based services # routing etc. in the wiki, but we would have to know if we want this to happen, and if yes for what kind of uses/wiki pages. Who could decide on this, SWG? The board? Is there a process to propose this? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 7:38 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Another really basic thing of integration would be to expose osm ids for search. Right now when you search something you will get a marker on the position, but there is no direct link to an OSM object. The marker could be made actice and show info like for browse map data. You might want to take another look at the search results panel on osm.org. As of a few weeks ago there is a view details link that will take you to the browse page of the object found by nominatim, if it is an actual OSM object (as opposed to something like a postcode that nominatim builds on its own and has no corresponding specific OSM object). This happened as the result of a pull request: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/250 Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Am 09.07.2013 14:08, schrieb Michael Buege: Zitat Immanuel Giulea: I think a directory of all the tools available would be a great starting point. Something like this? http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en This list is definitely too big for someone who is neither a OSM contributor nor an IT expert. This kind of public basically needs three services: a marker service allowing to set and share a marker, a POI search service and a routing service. There should be one or two links on the OSM project front page for each of these services, not more. Rainer ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Am 10.07.2013 15:50, schrieb Serge Wroclawski: Let's take a two examples: 1) Routing on the main site. 2) Addressing missing from OSM We should not start with the most difficult tasks. Lets take something easy, which exists, but is not accessible for non-initiated people: creating a marker and share it by mail. This is the most asked for function by people from outside the project an up to now I just can tell: It's easy. Go to the export tab, chose HTML incorporable, set the marker, copy the text in the output field and extract the string after the href attribute. Rainer ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
+1 to not crowding main cite with dozens of technical links. I got lost in http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en =) On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 10:14 PM, RainerU ra...@sfr.fr wrote: Am 09.07.2013 14:08, schrieb Michael Buege: Zitat Immanuel Giulea: I think a directory of all the tools available would be a great starting point. Something like this? http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en This list is definitely too big for someone who is neither a OSM contributor nor an IT expert. This kind of public basically needs three services: a marker service allowing to set and share a marker, a POI search service and a routing service. There should be one or two links on the OSM project front page for each of these services, not more. Rainer ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 16:01:51 +0200 From: Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com To: Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com Cc: osm talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis Message-ID: cabptjtd3kg9v+ds9ohjhj7_dbsuzrcshixwqjcsyexrgheh...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2013/7/10 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com: 1. Routing on osm.org Routing on the main site is something that's been worked on for at least a year, but I think it's been closer to two years. It's a problem that requires some amount of developer time, as well as sys-admin time, as well as computing resources to support. Yes, this is known and many people are probably waiting for this, but it takes much less time and work to set up one (or a few) link(s) from the map to osm based services # routing etc. in the wiki, but we would have to know if we want this to happen, and if yes for what kind of uses/wiki pages. Who could decide on this, SWG? The board? Is there a process to propose this? cheers, Martin We have a world-wide OSM routing solution at Mapquest that should be easy to implement on the main site. http://developer.mapquest.com/web/products/open/directions-service Currently, we update the route data nightly using the latest daily at http://planet.openstreetmap.org/replication/day/000/000/ Also, every so often we do wipe the database and ingest the latest planet and then catch up to the latest daily. I would love to see routing on the main site. --Greg Knisely ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
I once read one of the OSM gurus (can't remember who, maybe it was andy but I'm not sure) that said Render and they'll map. Here in Rio, there's not an overwhelming number of mappers, but from those only a fraction care to enter all POIs details such as address. I think that this happens basically because they don't seem to matter, because they are not shown on the main OSM interface. Maybe if they're clickable, more mappers would add more detail. Cheers, Arlindo Nighto Pereira On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Pavel Melnikov positro...@gmail.comwrote: +1 to not crowding main cite with dozens of technical links. I got lost in http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en =) On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 10:14 PM, RainerU ra...@sfr.fr wrote: Am 09.07.2013 14:08, schrieb Michael Buege: Zitat Immanuel Giulea: I think a directory of all the tools available would be a great starting point. Something like this? http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en This list is definitely too big for someone who is neither a OSM contributor nor an IT expert. This kind of public basically needs three services: a marker service allowing to set and share a marker, a POI search service and a routing service. There should be one or two links on the OSM project front page for each of these services, not more. Rainer ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
I haven't read the full thread, but in reply to the initial dilemma I say: Pah! When I moved home to Durham, UK, I switched to OpenStreetMap being the *only ** map I used, and that all that was mapped in the city was the river and 3 roads(one of which was a motorway). I wrote a little bit about it http://www.livingwithdragons.com/. But yep, OpenStreetMap has some limitations if you don't understand that not everything needs or will be on osm.org. There are political reasons (understandably) for features not making it to OSM.org, and also resource limitations(mainly volunteers to create the systems). But think how it can be nicer to choose which is the best routing/POI/app/whatever system for you, and bookmark that in your browser. wiki.osm.org can be a good starting place to find lists of websites/software that attempts to perform a certain function. * I allowed myself to use any BY-SA style license, so that was OSM and any doodles from friends(open license implied by our friendship). On 10 July 2013 21:13, Arlindo Pereira openstreet...@arlindopereira.comwrote: I once read one of the OSM gurus (can't remember who, maybe it was andy but I'm not sure) that said Render and they'll map. Here in Rio, there's not an overwhelming number of mappers, but from those only a fraction care to enter all POIs details such as address. I think that this happens basically because they don't seem to matter, because they are not shown on the main OSM interface. Maybe if they're clickable, more mappers would add more detail. Cheers, Arlindo Nighto Pereira On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Pavel Melnikov positro...@gmail.comwrote: +1 to not crowding main cite with dozens of technical links. I got lost in http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en =) On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 10:14 PM, RainerU ra...@sfr.fr wrote: Am 09.07.2013 14:08, schrieb Michael Buege: Zitat Immanuel Giulea: I think a directory of all the tools available would be a great starting point. Something like this? http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en This list is definitely too big for someone who is neither a OSM contributor nor an IT expert. This kind of public basically needs three services: a marker service allowing to set and share a marker, a POI search service and a routing service. There should be one or two links on the OSM project front page for each of these services, not more. Rainer ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
In general I agree with a lot of your points, and too find it still rather difficult to use OSM on a daily basis as a map solution. Too often I find my self having to revert to using google maps even though I do know many of the listed third party sites. My main issues are public transport routing and to a lesser degree geocoding / search as the OSM solutions are generally less flexible or forgiving to inaccuracies. For more special interest purposes, OSM on the otherhand often does win out already compared to gmaps. However, I think the situation is improving and the usefulness of OSM.org could be improved further helping the OSM brandname, without having to be a full google maps replacement. With regard to competing with commercial OSM users: My impression is that nearly all businesses around OSM, aren't really trying to be a direct competitor to google maps either. And with perhaps the exception of open mapquest, non of them are trying to build an end-user facing mapping portal as a website. Instead nearly all of them are trying to sell products and services or use OSM data directly in third party sites like Fourscare, craigslist, News sites, or games, where maps are important, but not the central focus of the company. Or they use OSM in the mobile domain. So expanding osm.org to cater to more of average joe's mapping needs won't hurt any of the OSM based businesses, as it doesn't impact their business model. To the contrary, I am sure most of them would love to see a strengthening of the OSM brand and an associated improvement of the mapdata. And even if it did. OSM's primary purpose isn't to provide businesses with free resources to make money. Commenting on some of your points more directly: Guillaume Pratte wrote Second point: accessing POI information. I cannot click on point of interests (POI) to get more info about them. Why do we input address, business hours and phone numbers on shops and restaurants if the map cannot easily display this information to the user? Why do I have to show the map's data in order to have information on a point of interest? This has been on the wish list for a while, as this feature is rather important / useful even if you don't want to cater to the end-user. By visualising more of the currently hidden data, it is likely to encourage more mappers to add the data. However, this feature seems to have mostly failed due to a lack of developers adopting this project and getting bringing it to conclusion. Also there was never quite consensus over what the technically best way to implement this feature was to be scalable enough for osm.org. However, if there is a developer who could push this feature, there is a good chance that it would end up on osm.org Guillaume Pratte wrote Third point: maximum zoom level. Some area are densely populated, and OpenStreetMap's current zoom level is not enough to see all details of the map. This is really unfortunate. Example: http://osm.org/go/cIrNs6Qzp-- What are the restaurant surrounding the Hard Rock Café on this map? I have to use the editor to be able to zoom and see all data. This aspect at least is likely going to be fixed soon. Once the new rendering server is in production there hopefully will be a Z19 ( http://orm.openstreetmap.org/#19/45.49753/-73.57669 ) Guillaume Pratte wrote Fifth point: routing. Why is there absolutely no routing implemented on the main OpenStreetMap website? This is I concede a naïve question, as it might be simply because of limited server resources. Once we have our new servers, is this something we want to implement, as a community? This has also been on the todo list for a long time. There also exists at least a partial implementation ( http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/routing# ), but it never quite reached the necessary maturity to actually get merged. Furthermore, so far the server resources to run the backend of a full scale routing engine weren't available. Once Phase II of the funding drive ( http://blog.openstreetmap.org/2013/06/26/extending-funding-drive/ ) has completed that might change and hopefully routing will finally be added to the main page. But things don't always progress as quickly as one would like in a large community driven project. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Using-OpenStreetMap-on-a-daily-basis-tp5768864p5769228.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
On 11 July 2013 00:27, RainerU ra...@sfr.fr wrote: Am 10.07.2013 15:50, schrieb Serge Wroclawski: Let's take a two examples: 1) Routing on the main site. 2) Addressing missing from OSM We should not start with the most difficult tasks. Lets take something easy, which exists, but is not accessible for non-initiated people: creating a marker and share it by mail. This is the most asked for function by people from outside the project an up to now I just can tell: It's easy. Go to the export tab, chose HTML incorporable, set the marker, copy the text in the output field and extract the string after the href attribute. I don't think this procedure is easy for most people. I think it would be easier to have something like 'permalink', maybe called 'markerlink'. If you click on 'markerlink' you would get a URL with mlat and mlon set to the centre of the map view. You could copy and paste this into email or chat or whatever. I proposed this idea to the Mapnik team, and I wrote the code to do it, but it was rejected. I think if we had clickable POIs it would be better- I would expect a right-click to offer a menu which would include the option to make a permalink for the POI, or left-click would pop up a window with more details of the POI and had a option within it to make a permalink. The more I use Naver maps (a mapping service from the Korean web portal Naver) the more I like what they have done and they way they do it. The URL is http://map.naver.com/ and although it's all in Korean you can click around and play with a few features. Just off the top of my head, here are some things you can do: * clickable POIs * highlight POIs (all restaurants, all banks, all gas stations etc.) * on-screen ruler (draw a line and it calculates the length) * routing (provides driving directions, cycling directions, walking directions and bus and train journey details. It also estimates the taxi fare for that journey) * aerial photo view * street view I think it's better than Google maps, and there is another Korean portal called Daum with similar features (http://map.daum.net/?t__nil_bestservice=map). I have also mentioned before, just recently, that Naver has an attribution for OSM, but I don't know how they are using OSM data. Having said that, I like to use the OSM main map a lot of the time. Best wishes, Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Guillaume I've answered some of your questions directly on your OSM blog. Here just some general remarks: at least since I've been involved with OSM and likely for a whole lot longer, the tension between what we have stated as the primary function of the main site, providing tools for our contributors to add and edit data, and the expectation that it should be something more google-ish has been very apparent. At times, mostly just to drive the point home, it has been suggested that it might be best to get rid of the map on the front page completely. Now I think there is some consensus that the Map is an important marketing tool that we need to attract more contributors, well at least keep them interested for a couple seconds so that we can tell them our story. But that is likely where the consensus stops and that is one of the reasons (outside of resources) why there hasn't been much visible expansion of services on OSM over the last years. Providing more services to end users would have a lot of consequences, for example it would start encroaching on the business of third parties providing such services now (we naturally already do this with the current site to a certain point), at least raising the bar of what you would need to provide to differentiate your service from OSM. Providing a full blown end-user site would also require substantially more resources than we have at our disposal and would likely mean that our current all volunteer model both for operations and administration would no longer be workable. There are some clear downsides to our current business model for example our main brand is not exposed as much as if we were running 4square, MapQuest Open etc., and on the other hand interesting services for end users that exist don't profit from the OpenStreetMap label as they could do. The important part is to understand that the current lack of end-user services is not because of lack of knowledge, technology or any thing similar, but by design. Now the communities thinking about that may change, but because we are travelling in largely uncharted territory, it is not a surprise that change comes slowly. Simon Am 09.07.2013 06:41, schrieb Guillaume Pratte: Hello, I have been a serious user of OpenStreetMap for less than six months, and I am proud to recently have achieved my one hundredth contribution to the project. I really love the OpenStreetMap project, and I would like to replace my daily usage of Google Maps with OpenStreetMap. But it just seems I cannot. Anybody else feel the same issues? I'll give a few concrete examples why, humbly hoping that my words can encourage changes to the main website. First point: searching. I have OpenStreetMap zoomed in to some region of Montreal, Canada. I input café, looking for a coffee shop. I get results from Nominatim, inviting me to visit a village in Brazil named Café or even the Café point in Antarctica. While these search results awaken my globetrotter's desire to explore the world, they frustrate me at the same time. Why couldn't Nominatim priorize results from the bounding box or surrounding? Why can't OpenStreetMap show me results on the map like the OverPass API does, performing a search on the tag amenity=cafe and showing the results on the map? Second point: accessing POI information. I cannot click on point of interests (POI) to get more info about them. Why do we input address, business hours and phone numbers on shops and restaurants if the map cannot easily display this information to the user? Why do I have to show the map's data in order to have information on a point of interest? Third point: maximum zoom level. Some area are densely populated, and OpenStreetMap's current zoom level is not enough to see all details of the map. This is really unfortunate. Example: http://osm.org/go/cIrNs6Qzp-- What are the restaurant surrounding the Hard Rock Café on this map? I have to use the editor to be able to zoom and see all data. Fourth point: sharing a point of interest. There should be an easy way to do that. I have found a (complicated) way to do it, which is all but obvious to newcomers. Here is how: • Using the layer icon at the top right of the map, I select Browse Map Data; • I select the object I want to share (which is not always possible; sometimes it is hidden behind a residential area or similar); • I click on Details • On the resulting page, I click on View way on larger map • I get an URL similar to this that I can share: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=225637513 Fifth point: routing. Why is there absolutely no routing implemented on the main OpenStreetMap website? This is I concede a naïve question, as it might be simply because of limited server resources. Once we have our new servers, is this something we want to implement, as a community? I really like the OpenStreetMap project, and I dream to be able
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
From: Simon Poole [mailto:si...@poole.ch] Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis There are some clear downsides to our current business model for example our main brand is not exposed as much as if we were running 4square, MapQuest Open etc., and on the other hand interesting services for end users that exist don't profit from the OpenStreetMap label as they could do. The important part is to understand that the current lack of end-user services is not because of lack of knowledge, technology or any thing similar, but by design. I believe both clickable POIs and routing are on the to-do list but have suffered from a lack of people/time although keep in mind clickable POIs means different things to different people. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Am 09.07.2013 09:13, schrieb Paul Norman: I believe both clickable POIs and routing are on the to-do list but have suffered from a lack of people/time although keep in mind clickable POIs means different things to different people. Yes, I pointed that out in my comment to the OPs blog post. The expectations still need to be managed though, the way both features are implemented in their current incarnations is clearly geared towards contributors, not the general public. Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
On 2013-07-09 09:20, Simon Poole wrote: Am 09.07.2013 09:13, schrieb Paul Norman: I believe both clickable POIs and routing are on the to-do list but have suffered from a lack of people/time although keep in mind clickable POIs means different things to different people. Yes, I pointed that out in my comment to the OPs blog post. The expectations still need to be managed though, the way both features are implemented in their current incarnations is clearly geared towards contributors, not the general public. The problem with OSM is that with Google, Google maps is the go-to site to get everything: map, routing, information. With OSM it is not. And while it is perfectly clear that OSM has limited resources and will probably never be able to offer all services from one portal, it is the biggest downside we have at the moment. I go to openstreetmap.org to see the map and/or search for places I go to osrm.at to get car routing I go to fietsrouteplanner-zuid.nl for bicycle routing in my neighborhood I go to maps.cloudmade.com for general bicycle or walking routing I go to opengastromap.de to get proper restaurant information (unfortunately Germany only) It just is less userfriendly than having it all on one site. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Hi, On 07/09/2013 09:36 AM, Maarten Deen wrote: The problem with OSM is that with Google, Google maps is the go-to site to get everything: [...] It just is less userfriendly than having it all on one site. Then again, having all this offered by different people and not by one big corporate behemoth might also have advantages. If one day the people at fietsrouteplanner-zuid.nl make a business decision you don't like - say, they tune their parameters in a way you don't agree with, or display advertising, or require registration or whatnot - then you can use someone else's site (or, if one doesn't exist, someone else can with relative ease set up a site). Let's not kid ourselves - even if we *were* to offer everything as a one-stop shop, we'd still have people with special interests whom we couldn't serve from the main site and for whom special third-party sites would be created, and it is in *those* where the value of OSM really becomes apparent. The great thing about OSM is not that we might one day have a site where you can do everything that you can do on Google too; the great thing is that everyone can set up their *own* site where you can do something. And shouldn't we actively encourage that (by, perhaps, better integrating osm.org with third party sites) rather than building our very own corporate behemoth? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Guillaume Pratte wrote: I really like the OpenStreetMap project, and I dream to be able to use it as a primary map instead of Google Maps. I feel resolving these issues would bring me many steps closer to making that dream come true. What do you all think? Do you also have showstoppers that prevent you to use OpenStreetMap as your primary and daily map? Rather than answering each point individually I'll give a general reply of the way *I* think things want to move forward. Openstreetmap has provided a base on which to build applications, and 'routing' is an area where there are some good routing engines available on-line using the 'common' database. We are now looking to address the missing 'historic' data via openhistoricalmap with local groups looking to process material they have into a more common format that can be shared. That is the key here, sharing material. Personally I have my own build of OSRM routing running locally so I can then look at adding my own local materiel since personally I do not like a few of the important directions currently generated by all of the current engines. And I can DO that which is the major difference between OSM and google/bing mapping! The in thing at the moment is 'the cloud', but once again commercial enterprise has hijacked what should be another cooperation tool? While providing backup of our important data elsewhere on the system is a good use of the system, the bulk of unused processing power is based in our own computers, which with the increasing 'unlimited' bandwidths available could be used to perhaps render higher resolution tiles over night somewhere in the world? More practical here is the use of our local machines to run much as stand alone sat nav's do nowadays. We simply download a view of the local area along with routing data from another source on 'the cloud' and then don't need an internet connection to use that data. Important around here since current navigation has many blank areas as I loose mobile broadband completely. What is the point of our having to pay even for 3G when most of the time you can't even get a connection, and can't get at your 'centrally stored' data ;) And 4G is another joke, when it's only available were wireless hotspots provide a better cover? I hope people are seeing where this is going? Do we want to replace google/bing ... probably not ... even for world wide cover? Do we want to provide a much better service 'locally', yes, something that the likes of google/bing can't easily address? I'm running 'locus' on my tablet and phone. It's not prefect, but I can select a map source and a routing engine and even go off-line. All the tools are in place to do most of what we want, so the target now should be to improve 'distribution' so that we can pick up locally enhanced feeds easier and reduce the load on the 'main' map? My next problem is simply addressing the holes in my one use of OSM which is another discussion. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Maarten Deen wrote: The problem with OSM is that with Google, Google maps is the go-to site to get everything: map, routing, information. With OSM it is not. And while it is perfectly clear that OSM has limited resources and will probably never be able to offer all services from one portal, it is the biggest downside we have at the moment. I go to openstreetmap.org to see the map and/or search for places I go to osrm.at to get car routing I go to fietsrouteplanner-zuid.nl for bicycle routing in my neighborhood I go to maps.cloudmade.com for general bicycle or walking routing I go to opengastromap.de to get proper restaurant information (unfortunately Germany only) It just is less userfriendly than having it all on one site. But a local 'portal' which provides all your locally enhanced feeds could get around that problem? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Am 09.07.2013 09:36, schrieb Maarten Deen: . The problem with OSM is that with Google, Google maps is the go-to site to get everything: map, routing, information. With OSM it is not. And while it is perfectly clear that OSM has limited resources and will probably never be able to offer all services from one portal, it is the biggest downside we have at the moment. I go to openstreetmap.org to see the map and/or search for places I go to osrm.at to get car routing I go to fietsrouteplanner-zuid.nl for bicycle routing in my neighborhood I go to maps.cloudmade.com for general bicycle or walking routing I go to opengastromap.de to get proper restaurant information (unfortunately Germany only) It just is less userfriendly than having it all on one site. It is a bit like Android vs. iOS with google in the role pf Apple :-) And this is essentially what I was implying with my comments that we and the OSM ecosystem can't/don't leverage the strength of the OpenStreetMap brand. visionary_mode Assuming that we don't want to change our modus operandi, one of the way we might be able to improve things is for openstreetmap.org to have more of a brokerage role in the OSM. While I have been mainly thinking about this in the context of map tile and consulting providers, there is no real reason why we couldn't do something along such lines for routing services, search engines and so on. One way this could work would be similar to umap tied to your OSM account (umap actually already offers a lot of the functionality). So you could choose and configure the map tiles you wanted to see on your version of osm, which search engine to use and so one (and allow a way to easily embed such a map on your web site). It would probably need some minimum API/UI rules but not What is tricky is how to handle commercial offerings (however they are financed directly or by ads), but I think this could be worked out. /visionary_mode Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Frederik Ramm wrote: The great thing about OSM is not that we might one day have a site where you can do everything that you can do on Google too; the great thing is that everyone can set up their *own* site where you can do something. And shouldn't we actively encourage that (by, perhaps, better integrating osm.org with third party sites) rather than building our very own corporate behemoth? The short version of what I said -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
My daughter came bouncing in to my office distracting me :-) Am 09.07.2013 10:01, schrieb Simon Poole: It would probably need some minimum API/UI rules but not What is tricky is how to handle commercial offerings (however they are financed directly or by ads), but I think this could be worked out. should be It would probably need some minimum API/UI rules but not too restrictive. What is tricky ... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Frederik, On Tue, 09 Jul 2013 09:53:54 +0200, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: ... The great thing about OSM is not that we might one day have a site where you can do everything that you can do on Google too; the great thing is that everyone can set up their *own* site where you can do something. And shouldn't we actively encourage that (by, perhaps, better integrating osm.org with third party sites) rather than building our very own corporate behemoth? That is okay for people who have been in the OSM world for a long time so know about third party sites and also enjoy the freedom to run their own services. I think where an integrated, gmaps style, site would be most useful is in attracting new contributors. Someone coming cold to openstreetmap.org today might mistakenly think that what is the point in contributing to a map where there is no routing or where the map itself is about as interactive as something printed on paper. My ideal solution would be to have a gmaps style integrated site mainly as a shop window to attract new people (+ also nice to show off to the media) and then also have a proper contributors portal (maybe at osm.org) which would focus very much on community, showing people active in your area, local mapping events, tagging standards for your country, data sources you can use, tips from experienced mappers, that kind of thing. Kevin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Am 09.07.2013 11:25, schrieb o...@k3v.eu: My ideal solution would be to have a gmaps style integrated site mainly as a shop window to attract new people (+ also nice to show off to the media) ... I'm sure you realize that even if you call it something different it is still a duck (as in: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, ...), In practice what you would like amounts to running a full blown gmaps competitor, and if it even done badly it would be so insanely popular that we would have to turn the project inside out to support it (we already have some of the issues without even trying). Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Would a reasonable compromise be to provide links to projects that use osm? Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 09/07/2013 11:30 Simon Poole wrote: Am 09.07.2013 11:25, schrieb o...@k3v.eu: My ideal solution would be to have a gmaps style integrated site mainly as a shop window to attract new people (+ also nice to show off to the media) ... I'm sure you realize that even if you call it something different it is still a duck (as in: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, ...), In practice what you would like amounts to running a full blown gmaps competitor, and if it even done badly it would be so insanely popular that we would have to turn the project inside out to support it (we already have some of the issues without even trying). Simon ___ talk mailing list o...@k3v.eu http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
I'm also very new at Openstreetmap and want to add my 2cents. I think a directory of all the tools available would be a great starting point. So far I was introduced to wheelmap and overpass. But not any of the fantastic dozens of tools available. If those tools were allowed as layers on the main map I would be happy. Let's face it openstreetmap is very little known. I have contacted the geography faculties here in Montreal to let them know an alternative to gmaps exists. Google has become synonymous to search engine. Gmaps has become synonymous to mapping. Immanuel On 2013-07-09 6:42 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: Would a reasonable compromise be to provide links to projects that use osm? Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 09/07/2013 11:30 Simon Poole wrote: Am 09.07.2013 11:25, schrieb o...@k3v.eu: My ideal solution would be to have a gmaps style integrated site mainly as a shop window to attract new people (+ also nice to show off to the media) ... I'm sure you realize that even if you call it something different it is still a duck (as in: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, ...), In practice what you would like amounts to running a full blown gmaps competitor, and if it even done badly it would be so insanely popular that we would have to turn the project inside out to support it (we already have some of the issues without even trying). Simon ___ talk mailing list o...@k3v.eu http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Well we do have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_based_Services and other lists of services (not suggesting that they are a sufficient replacement for a integrated solution). Simon Am 09.07.2013 12:40, schrieb Philip Barnes: Would a reasonable compromise be to provide links to projects that use osm? Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 09/07/2013 11:30 Simon Poole wrote: Am 09.07.2013 11:25, schrieb o...@k3v.eu mailto:o...@k3v.eu: My ideal solution would be to have a gmaps style integrated site mainly as a shop window to attract new people (+ also nice to show off to the media) ... I'm sure you realize that even if you call it something different it is still a duck (as in: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, ...), In practice what you would like amounts to running a full blown gmaps competitor, and if it even done badly it would be so insanely popular that we would have to turn the project inside out to support it (we already have some of the issues without even trying). Simon ___ talk mailing list o...@k3v.eu mailto:o...@k3v.eu http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
On Tue, 09 Jul 2013 12:30:23 +0200, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote: Am 09.07.2013 11:25, schrieb o...@k3v.eu: My ideal solution would be to have a gmaps style integrated site mainly as a shop window to attract new people (+ also nice to show off to the media) ... I'm sure you realize that even if you call it something different it is still a duck (as in: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, ...), In practice what you would like amounts to running a full blown gmaps competitor, and if it even done badly it would be so insanely popular that we would have to turn the project inside out to support it (we already have some of the issues without even trying). I don't think that would be the case as gmaps is so ingrained in most peoples surfing habits that they aren't suddenly going to change en-masse to OSM whatever the site looks like. It just seems to me that if you have a shop window from 2006 a lot of people aren't going to bother to come in and check-out the great stuff you have in the back room. Kevin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Zitat Immanuel Giulea: I'm also very new at Openstreetmap and want to add my 2cents. I think a directory of all the tools available would be a great starting point. Something like this? http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en -- Michael ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Maarten Deen wrote: The problem with OSM is that with Google, Google maps is the go-to site to get everything: map, routing, information. With OSM it is not. [...] It just is less userfriendly than having it all on one site. And that's a great business opportunity for someone... right? Although: it turns out that not even Google has everything. I guess that if you're a car driver who searches for addresses a lot, especially in places with big long roads (where house numbers are really important), Google Maps is wonderful. But fortunately I live in a country where we have (a) short roads and (b) bikes, and actually Google's not all that. Their bike cartography? Cartography is probably too kind. Their bike routing? Sure, if you like being mowed down on lethal fast roads. Their POI display? I sort of fell out of love with that after spending half-an-hour looking for a non-existent bike shop on the back streets of Great Malvern. So, instead, I use OpenCycleMap, CycleStreets, and a couple of other sites. Maybe one day, someone will build the all-in-one British cycle mapping website to end them all, and I'll use that. And I bet you it will be made with OSM data. If even Google can't manage to be everything, openstreetmap.org certainly can't be. Instead, we're at the heart of an ecosystem that allows people to build their own everythings. If the OSM-based everything for you doesn't exist yet, go out and build it. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Using-OpenStreetMap-on-a-daily-basis-tp5768864p5768930.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Am 09.07.2013 14:04, schrieb o...@k3v.eu: It just seems to me that if you have a shop window from 2006 a lot of people aren't going to bother to come in and check-out the great stuff you have in the back room. I believe that it is well recognized that we have a slight contradiction in the way we operate that on the one hand we want and need attractive shop windows to attract more mappers, on the other hand don't actually want to provide services to such contributors (outside of supporting contributing and editing). The, at least historic, way out is to assume that our data consumers, 4square, and all the others, are providing the shop windows and we only have to do something minimal for visitors that stumble on us by accident. If this actually works is open to debate. What is clear is that our past role models (Navteq, TeleAtlas) have themselves departed more from the pure data collector/provider model than we have in response to market pressure (mainly google). Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Guillaume We use here . Almost any system here integrated with osm. F On Jul 9, 2013 11:43 AM, Guillaume Pratte guilla...@guillaumepratte.net wrote: Hello, I have been a serious user of OpenStreetMap for less than six months, and I am proud to recently have achieved my one hundredth contribution to the project. I really love the OpenStreetMap project, and I would like to replace my daily usage of Google Maps with OpenStreetMap. But it just seems I cannot. Anybody else feel the same issues? I'll give a few concrete examples why, humbly hoping that my words can encourage changes to the main website. First point: searching. I have OpenStreetMap zoomed in to some region of Montreal, Canada. I input café, looking for a coffee shop. I get results from Nominatim, inviting me to visit a village in Brazil named Café or even the Café point in Antarctica. While these search results awaken my globetrotter's desire to explore the world, they frustrate me at the same time. Why couldn't Nominatim priorize results from the bounding box or surrounding? Why can't OpenStreetMap show me results on the map like the OverPass API does, performing a search on the tag amenity=cafe and showing the results on the map? Second point: accessing POI information. I cannot click on point of interests (POI) to get more info about them. Why do we input address, business hours and phone numbers on shops and restaurants if the map cannot easily display this information to the user? Why do I have to show the map's data in order to have information on a point of interest? Third point: maximum zoom level. Some area are densely populated, and OpenStreetMap's current zoom level is not enough to see all details of the map. This is really unfortunate. Example: http://osm.org/go/cIrNs6Qzp--What are the restaurant surrounding the Hard Rock Café on this map? I have to use the editor to be able to zoom and see all data. Fourth point: sharing a point of interest. There should be an easy way to do that. I have found a (complicated) way to do it, which is all but obvious to newcomers. Here is how: • Using the layer icon at the top right of the map, I select Browse Map Data; • I select the object I want to share (which is not always possible; sometimes it is hidden behind a residential area or similar); • I click on Details • On the resulting page, I click on View way on larger map • I get an URL similar to this that I can share: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=225637513 Fifth point: routing. Why is there absolutely no routing implemented on the main OpenStreetMap website? This is I concede a naïve question, as it might be simply because of limited server resources. Once we have our new servers, is this something we want to implement, as a community? I really like the OpenStreetMap project, and I dream to be able to use it as a primary map instead of Google Maps. I feel resolving these issues would bring me many steps closer to making that dream come true. What do you all think? Do you also have showstoppers that prevent you to use OpenStreetMap as your primary and daily map? Guillaume ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
People will stumble more easily on the OpenStreetMap site than on any of the other sites (umap, OSRM, etc..). Most press articles are about OpenStreetMap, so they search for that brand; thus they will end up on the openstreetmap.org website. The list of all services is also neatly hidden on the wiki. How many first time visitors will go from the main page to that page ? I understand that the main website is targeted towards contributors, but that is not clear from just looking at the website. People see a map and probably want to use it in a google way. They compare the features and assume that OpenStreetMap has to offer less. They will not look for an alternative service based upon OSM. just my .5 cents Marc On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote: Am 09.07.2013 14:04, schrieb o...@k3v.eu: It just seems to me that if you have a shop window from 2006 a lot of people aren't going to bother to come in and check-out the great stuff you have in the back room. I believe that it is well recognized that we have a slight contradiction in the way we operate that on the one hand we want and need attractive shop windows to attract more mappers, on the other hand don't actually want to provide services to such contributors (outside of supporting contributing and editing). The, at least historic, way out is to assume that our data consumers, 4square, and all the others, are providing the shop windows and we only have to do something minimal for visitors that stumble on us by accident. If this actually works is open to debate. What is clear is that our past role models (Navteq, TeleAtlas) have themselves departed more from the pure data collector/provider model than we have in response to market pressure (mainly google). Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Am 09.07.2013 13:57, schrieb Simon Poole: Well we do have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_based_Services and other lists of services (not suggesting that they are a sufficient replacement for a integrated solution). and you do not find it cause it is hidden in the wiki and not many pages link to it. Well, a link to two or three of these list in the wiki about services, online maps and tools in general would be really helpful. Last week I had to help a friend to get a marker set. Still is still an issue. It is explained on help.osm but again no link from page. The .svg export is another annoying issue as it rarely works. How about a link page under osm.org to better guide interested people ? Could be even just a link to a wiki page. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Richard Fairhurst wrote: If even Google can't manage to be everything, openstreetmap.org certainly can't be. Instead, we're at the heart of an ecosystem that allows people to build their own everythings. If the OSM-based everything for you doesn't exist yet, go out and build it. I'm certainly getting around to the same point of view. While there are a lot of 'shop windows' to find suitable software, googleplay and other android stores, i-store, linux repositories and even window sources. Searching for OSM or openstreetmap does not give particularly reliable results. Even searching gives a lot of 'miss-information'? So perhaps the starting point is to expand on the long list of links that we do have in a more informative way? We perhaps need to differentiate better services and user software from developer and other tools. A 'router' is not necessarily a 'routing service' and this gets rather messy when you look on the wiki currently? Mike - I'm not talking about making the front end more 'developer' orientated, but better forward users to other available local portals? One of the things that irritates me with the existing map is that it's not immediately obvious where in the world you are, especially if working from a random link. I think I am looking for a 'location' box which also lists local websites and other versions of the database? I'd include a link to an appropriate routing site as part of the box. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
I agree. Adding more functionality to OpenStreetMap.org means that people will use it as a go-to mapping site for things like routing and recommend it to others. This means they'll probably find errors/incompleteness... and they can then fix them or tag them with a note. I know plenty of people who, because of my frequent linking to openstreetmap.org, have joined and fixed a few basic things in their area: adding a pub here or there etc. Making openstreetmap.org more useful for users will hopefully mean there is an increased supply of people who want to edit the map. And if they are just seeing a map in Foursquare or another app, they don't exactly see that there's an edit button. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ On 9 July 2013 at 13:54:54, Marc Gemis (marc.ge...@gmail.com) wrote: People will stumble more easily on the OpenStreetMap site than on any of the other sites (umap, OSRM, etc..). Most press articles are about OpenStreetMap, so they search for that brand; thus they will end up on the openstreetmap.org website. The list of all services is also neatly hidden on the wiki. How many first time visitors will go from the main page to that page ? I understand that the main website is targeted towards contributors, but that is not clear from just looking at the website. People see a map and probably want to use it in a google way. They compare the features and assume that OpenStreetMap has to offer less. They will not look for an alternative service based upon OSM. just my .5 cents ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Am 09.07.2013 13:42, schrieb Immanuel Giulea: ... Let's face it openstreetmap is very little known. I have contacted the geography faculties here in Montreal to let them know an alternative to gmaps exists. Google has become synonymous to search engine. Gmaps has become synonymous to mapping. Before I forget: my usual plea for more help in/for the Communications Working Group http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Communication_Working_Group While we are likely to have enough hands at a regional and local level, we really more help communicating globally (it would in the long run naturally be advantageous if we could sync regional and global comms a bit). So if there are readers that have some experience in the area and want to help, please don't hesitate to get in contact with Harry. Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
Some of the issues you raise seem to be solved in e.g. http://www.openlinkmap.org/ There are some very useful maps out there umap, openlinkmap, geschichtskarten, hikebike map, etc. each serving a different audience. It would be great to see all that functionality combined in 1 uber-map. Google does this to a certain extend (umap + openlinkmap + routing). But what happens to usability when you keep adding information, rendering of obscure POIs ? How do you hide irrelevant information, or just show that special piece of data ? That are some nice challenges imho. Marc On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Guillaume Pratte guilla...@guillaumepratte.net wrote: Hello, I have been a serious user of OpenStreetMap for less than six months, and I am proud to recently have achieved my one hundredth contribution to the project. I really love the OpenStreetMap project, and I would like to replace my daily usage of Google Maps with OpenStreetMap. But it just seems I cannot. Anybody else feel the same issues? I'll give a few concrete examples why, humbly hoping that my words can encourage changes to the main website. First point: searching. I have OpenStreetMap zoomed in to some region of Montreal, Canada. I input café, looking for a coffee shop. I get results from Nominatim, inviting me to visit a village in Brazil named Café or even the Café point in Antarctica. While these search results awaken my globetrotter's desire to explore the world, they frustrate me at the same time. Why couldn't Nominatim priorize results from the bounding box or surrounding? Why can't OpenStreetMap show me results on the map like the OverPass API does, performing a search on the tag amenity=cafe and showing the results on the map? Second point: accessing POI information. I cannot click on point of interests (POI) to get more info about them. Why do we input address, business hours and phone numbers on shops and restaurants if the map cannot easily display this information to the user? Why do I have to show the map's data in order to have information on a point of interest? Third point: maximum zoom level. Some area are densely populated, and OpenStreetMap's current zoom level is not enough to see all details of the map. This is really unfortunate. Example: http://osm.org/go/cIrNs6Qzp--What are the restaurant surrounding the Hard Rock Café on this map? I have to use the editor to be able to zoom and see all data. Fourth point: sharing a point of interest. There should be an easy way to do that. I have found a (complicated) way to do it, which is all but obvious to newcomers. Here is how: • Using the layer icon at the top right of the map, I select Browse Map Data; • I select the object I want to share (which is not always possible; sometimes it is hidden behind a residential area or similar); • I click on Details • On the resulting page, I click on View way on larger map • I get an URL similar to this that I can share: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=225637513 Fifth point: routing. Why is there absolutely no routing implemented on the main OpenStreetMap website? This is I concede a naïve question, as it might be simply because of limited server resources. Once we have our new servers, is this something we want to implement, as a community? I really like the OpenStreetMap project, and I dream to be able to use it as a primary map instead of Google Maps. I feel resolving these issues would bring me many steps closer to making that dream come true. What do you all think? Do you also have showstoppers that prevent you to use OpenStreetMap as your primary and daily map? Guillaume ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
