Re: [OSM-talk] reddit AMA with some OSMF Board members. 15:00Z 9 Nov

[Tobias Knerr]

On 30.10.20 10:04, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Rory, I am absolutely sure there was no bad intent in the choice of
> format and platform, but given where this discussion went so fast, I
> believe the setting should be reconsidered, evaluating the possibility
> of choosing an open platform.

When I asked him, Spanholz said he would be happy to see the questions
and answers mirrored onto an open platform. All it takes is one
volunteer (or several) to step forward and do the manual work of copying
content back and forth.

Which open platform? Up to whoever volunteers. :)

And of course, the offer to submit questions by direct message still stands:

On 29.10.20 22:58, Tobias Knerr wrote:
> * Spanholz, the user who has been most active in organizing this AMA,
> has already offered to post questions on behalf of other people. So
> you can send in your questions without needing to sign up to reddit.

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Re: [OSM-talk] reddit AMA with some OSMF Board members. 15:00Z 9 Nov

[joost schouppe]

I think this is really an upside down reading of what is happening here. Of
course we will make an active effort to do our main communications on open
platforms. But it would be totally absurd to refuse an invitation to talk
to people, just because their channel isn't 100% open. That would
effectively mean Board members cannot talk to anyone or at any place that
isn't 100% open and equally accessible to all - so for example, not a
single physical event would be possible.

Christoph's solution isn't hard: any day is AMA on OSMF-talk, so just ask
your questions already. Tag them AMA, and I'll post them to spanholz.
Afterwards, we can totally copy the contents of the thread on some wiki
after the event.

If there's another place that wants to set up a chat with members of the
Board, our doors have never been more open.

Op vr 30 okt. 2020 om 11:24 schreef Christoph Hormann :

> By quoting the board statement i did not really intend to argue with the
> authors of said document about the exegesis of it - that would be kind of
> pointless.
>
> What i want to express is that this is a good practical case study how
> much commitment the board members have in their practical communication
> with the OSM community to open communication channels and platforms.  As
> (like you and Martin point out) individual board members but still in their
> capacity as board members and not as a group of private individuals.
>
> We have a saying in German that goes "wie man in den Wald hineinruft so
> schallt es heraus".  So if the board boldly advertises their commitment to
> open communication channels and then holds an exclusive event on a
> proprietary platform said board will have a hard time dealing with
> corporations boldly communicating their commitment to OpenStreetMap,
> community rules, OSMF policy, the license or similar things but then
> practically not living up to said promises from the perspective of the
> board or the OSM community.
>
> Language can be a powerful tool of social interaction but your ability to
> use it to that effect depends on you having and maintaining the reputation
> to be earnest, concise, well-defined and dependable in your communication -
> not only from your own perspective but also from that of the recipients of
> the communication.  If people have the impression that they cannot rely on
> what you say - and it does not matter if that is due to them misreading
> your communication or you being vague in it - you loose the ability to
> effectively communicate with people.  As a result you would massively
> narrow your social horizon to those people who are culturally close and
> like-minded to you.
>
> Back on subject - the solution to the problem here to be able to reach out
> to people on reddit who are more comfortable there than on open platforms
> while not being exclusive in my eyes could be fairly simple - you just
> allow questions on both reddit and open platforms and you post answers on
> both equally as well.  Yes, that is additional work.  But commitment
> without inconveniences is ultimately not really commitment.
>
> We even have a practical reference for Q in the OSMF context on open
> platforms by the way.  Before the board decided there to be a need for
> moderation (which was never re-evaluated afterwards by the way) in the
> lead-up to the board elections we had open Q on the OSM wiki with the
> candidates.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
> ___
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>


-- 
Joost Schouppe
OpenStreetMap  |
Twitter  | LinkedIn
 | Meetup

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Re: [OSM-talk] reddit AMA with some OSMF Board members. 15:00Z 9 Nov

[Christoph Hormann]

By quoting the board statement i did not really intend to argue with the 
authors of said document about the exegesis of it - that would be kind of 
pointless.

What i want to express is that this is a good practical case study how much 
commitment the board members have in their practical communication with the OSM 
community to open communication channels and platforms.  As (like you and 
Martin point out) individual board members but still in their capacity as board 
members and not as a group of private individuals.

We have a saying in German that goes "wie man in den Wald hineinruft so schallt 
es heraus".  So if the board boldly advertises their commitment to open 
communication channels and then holds an exclusive event on a proprietary 
platform said board will have a hard time dealing with corporations boldly 
communicating their commitment to OpenStreetMap, community rules, OSMF policy, 
the license or similar things but then practically not living up to said 
promises from the perspective of the board or the OSM community.

Language can be a powerful tool of social interaction but your ability to use 
it to that effect depends on you having and maintaining the reputation to be 
earnest, concise, well-defined and dependable in your communication - not only 
from your own perspective but also from that of the recipients of the 
communication.  If people have the impression that they cannot rely on what you 
say - and it does not matter if that is due to them misreading your 
communication or you being vague in it - you loose the ability to effectively 
communicate with people.  As a result you would massively narrow your social 
horizon to those people who are culturally close and like-minded to you.

Back on subject - the solution to the problem here to be able to reach out to 
people on reddit who are more comfortable there than on open platforms while 
not being exclusive in my eyes could be fairly simple - you just allow 
questions on both reddit and open platforms and you post answers on both 
equally as well.  Yes, that is additional work.  But commitment without 
inconveniences is ultimately not really commitment.

We even have a practical reference for Q in the OSMF context on open 
platforms by the way.  Before the board decided there to be a need for 
moderation (which was never re-evaluated afterwards by the way) in the lead-up 
to the board elections we had open Q on the OSM wiki with the candidates.

-- 
Christoph Hormann 
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] reddit AMA with some OSMF Board members. 15:00Z 9 Nov

[Maarten Deen]

On 2020-10-30 10:04, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


When digging slightly deeper it surfaces that people who do not want
to sign up at  can only read. "Ask me
anything" in readonly mode?


I'm sure you can send them questions via email 
(https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Contact) and I'm hoping the 
participants will monitor their email during the AMA. That should be 
near real-time enough.


The only down part is the countries where reddit is banned completely.

Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] reddit AMA with some OSMF Board members. 15:00Z 9 Nov

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 29. Okt. 2020 um 22:31 Uhr schrieb Rory McCann :

> On Thu, 29 Oct 2020, at 9:30 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> > So i suppose you will circumnavigate any subject related to OSMF
> > governance or the election and that you will not refer to what is going
> > to be said there in any future discussion of OSMF matters (because then
> > it would need to be considered as part of a consultation by the board).
>
> What, you think, I personally am not allowed to even _talk_ about anything
> to do with OSMF unless it's (e.g.) on this mailing list?! Come on,
> Christoph, that's ridiculus. If someone emails me, am I required to publish
> that email and any reply I make?! Seriously that's not what the committment
> to open communication channels means.



There's a difference between a chat among some people and a "Ask me
anything" which you, representing yourself as a board member and other
members of the board ("Some of us on the OSM Foundation Board") announce on
the talk list with the words: "It's an oppertunity to ask us some
questions.".

When digging slightly deeper it surfaces that people who do not want to
sign up at  can only read. "Ask me anything" in
readonly mode?

Rory, I am absolutely sure there was no bad intent in the choice of format
and platform, but given where this discussion went so fast, I believe the
setting should be reconsidered, evaluating the possibility of choosing an
open platform.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] reddit AMA with some OSMF Board members. 15:00Z 9 Nov

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Oct 29, 2020, 21:00 by o...@imagico.de:

>> Rory McCann  hat am 29.10.2020 20:33 geschrieben:
>>
>> Some of us on the OSM Foundation Board have agreed to do an AMA
>> (Ask Me Anything) on the reddit forum for OpenStreetMap 
>> [...]
>> See you there. 
>>
>
> Considering i would need to agree to the terms of some amoral corporation 
> most certainly not.
>
> I am looking forward to the practical demonstration on how the board will 
> implement their recently made commitment to open channels with that:
>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2020-August/007095.html
>
Looking at that document

"Essential communications willalways be accessible through an open, preferably 
self-hosted platform."

"For the purpose of this commitment, essential communications include: (...)
Publications or consultations by the board"

(1) 
Not sure whatever it includes communications by board members (not "by the 
board")
but acting as board representative.

(2)
I guess that quoting questions + answers on mailing list or diary entry would 
work well?
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Re: [OSM-talk] reddit AMA with some OSMF Board members. 15:00Z 9 Nov

[Tobias Knerr]

I've been considering the downsides of using a proprietary channel when
I was invited to participate. My thinking is:

* The questions and answers are publicly visible. (Yes, Reddit may nag
you sign up or install their app – close that noise.)
* Spanholz, the user who has been most active in organizing this AMA,
has already offered to post questions on behalf of other people. So you
can send in your questions without needing to sign up to reddit.

For something that's not an official event (just something individual
board members participate in), these options seem good enough.

Is it ideal? No, and I would be more than happy to participate in an
event hosted on our open platforms. But it's an initiative that I want
to encourage, as I hope it could get more OSM community members
interested in foundation matters, and the foundation could use more
active participation. It would be even better if community members took
the initiative to run more fun events on our self-hosted platforms –
that would probably do more to make them more lively and active than the
board could ever hope to achieve with its decrees.

(And of course you can ask questions on OSM channels around the year, no
need to wait for an "AMA". I know I don't need to tell that to you in
particular, but I wish the bulk of the community was less shy about
speaking up on OSMF issues.)

On 29.10.20 21:30, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> So i suppose you will circumnavigate any subject related to OSMF governance 
> or the election and that you will not refer to what is going to be said there 
> in any future discussion of OSMF matters (because then it would need to be 
> considered as part of a consultation by the board).

Not every communication between a member of the board and one or more
community member(s) constitutes a "consultation". It's good to be wary
about slippery slopes, but this just doesn't make the cut.

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Re: [OSM-talk] reddit AMA with some OSMF Board members. 15:00Z 9 Nov

[Rory McCann]

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020, at 9:30 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> So i suppose you will circumnavigate any subject related to OSMF 
> governance or the election and that you will not refer to what is going 
> to be said there in any future discussion of OSMF matters (because then 
> it would need to be considered as part of a consultation by the board).

What, you think, I personally am not allowed to even _talk_ about anything to 
do with OSMF unless it's (e.g.) on this mailing list?! Come on, Christoph, 
that's ridiculus. If someone emails me, am I required to publish that email and 
any reply I make?! Seriously that's not what the committment to open 
communication channels means.

A web page is open protocols. The existance of some JS trying to nudge you to 
sign up doesn't make it "closed". Annoying maybe, but it's still open. Both 
archive.org & archive.is appear to be able to arcive reddit posts, so you have 
a way to view it.

Anyway, I'll save the web page after and send it to you, just to be 100% sure.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020, at 9:30 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> 
> 
> > Rory McCann  hat am 29.10.2020 21:06 geschrieben:
> > 
> > This just a social thing, not official announcements, so that doesn't 
> > apply. 
> 
> Quoting from the commitment:
> 
> > For the purpose of this commitment, essential communications 
> > include:
> > * Publications or consultations by the board, WGs, committees or 
> > other Foundation bodies.
> > * Communications mandated by OSMF policies/guidelines/frameworks 
> > and similar documents.
> > * Anything related to how the OSMF is governed, such as AGMs and 
> > elections.
> 
> So i suppose you will circumnavigate any subject related to OSMF 
> governance or the election and that you will not refer to what is going 
> to be said there in any future discussion of OSMF matters (because then 
> it would need to be considered as part of a consultation by the board).
> 
> > Regardless, you can read/vew it without needing to create an account, so 
> > essentially, there will be a web page you can read. 
> 
> Quoting again from the commitment:
> 
> > By open platforms, we mean those that are accessible through 
> > open-source software and open protocols, and do not require an 
> > account at a third-party service to access. (Read-only public 
> > access is sufficient for one-way publications, but not two-way 
> > communications.)
> 
> By the way - reddit has been most notorious in making their platform 
> essentially inaccessible to anyone who does not sign up with them - i 
> frequently when following links from some search results to their 
> platform have not been able to view the actual content because it was 
> hidden by javascript nudging you to sign up.  So you should not make 
> the assumption that content on reddit is accessible to everyone 
> (although i kind of think that in 2020 that should be common knowledge 
> for any proprietary corporate platform - just like twitter, facebook 
> etc.)
> 
> -- 
> Christoph Hormann 
> http://www.imagico.de/
> 
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] reddit AMA with some OSMF Board members. 15:00Z 9 Nov

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Reddit is entirely blocked by all ISPs in Indonesia due to government
policy, so I am not able to participate in any discussions on that website
while I am living there.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 12:39 PM Rory McCann  wrote:

> Hello OSMers,
>
> Some of us on the OSM Foundation Board have agreed to do an AMA (Ask Me
> Anything) on the reddit forum for OpenStreetMap (aka “the r/openstreetmap
> subreddit”) starting on 15:00 UTC 9th November. It's an oppertunity to ask
> us some questions. Be gentle. 
>
> More details:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/openstreetmap/comments/jk73ez/annoucement_ama_with_osmf_board_members_on_9th_of/
>
> Event date/time in your timezone:
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Reddit+AMA+with+OSMF+board+members=20201109T15=1440=23=55
>
> Event Countdown:
> https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?p0=1440=20201109T15=Reddit%20AMA%20with%20OSMF%20board%20members
>
> Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/IAmA
>
> See you there. 
>
> --
> Rory
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] reddit AMA with some OSMF Board members. 15:00Z 9 Nov

[Christoph Hormann]

> Rory McCann  hat am 29.10.2020 21:06 geschrieben:
> 
> This just a social thing, not official announcements, so that doesn't apply. 

Quoting from the commitment:

> For the purpose of this commitment, essential communications 
> include:
> * Publications or consultations by the board, WGs, committees or 
> other Foundation bodies.
> * Communications mandated by OSMF policies/guidelines/frameworks 
> and similar documents.
> * Anything related to how the OSMF is governed, such as AGMs and 
> elections.

So i suppose you will circumnavigate any subject related to OSMF governance or 
the election and that you will not refer to what is going to be said there in 
any future discussion of OSMF matters (because then it would need to be 
considered as part of a consultation by the board).

> Regardless, you can read/vew it without needing to create an account, so 
> essentially, there will be a web page you can read. 

Quoting again from the commitment:

> By open platforms, we mean those that are accessible through 
> open-source software and open protocols, and do not require an 
> account at a third-party service to access. (Read-only public 
> access is sufficient for one-way publications, but not two-way 
> communications.)

By the way - reddit has been most notorious in making their platform 
essentially inaccessible to anyone who does not sign up with them - i 
frequently when following links from some search results to their platform have 
not been able to view the actual content because it was hidden by javascript 
nudging you to sign up.  So you should not make the assumption that content on 
reddit is accessible to everyone (although i kind of think that in 2020 that 
should be common knowledge for any proprietary corporate platform - just like 
twitter, facebook etc.)

-- 
Christoph Hormann 
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] reddit AMA with some OSMF Board members. 15:00Z 9 Nov

[Rory McCann]

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020, at 9:00 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> I am looking forward to the practical demonstration on how the board 
> will implement their recently made commitment to open channels with 
> that:
> 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2020-August/007095.html

This just a social thing, not official announcements, so that doesn't apply. 

Regardless, you can read/vew it without needing to create an account, so 
essentially, there will be a web page you can read. 

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Re: [OSM-talk] reddit AMA with some OSMF Board members. 15:00Z 9 Nov

[Christoph Hormann]

> Rory McCann  hat am 29.10.2020 20:33 geschrieben:
> 
> Some of us on the OSM Foundation Board have agreed to do an AMA
> (Ask Me Anything) on the reddit forum for OpenStreetMap 
> [...]
> See you there. 

Considering i would need to agree to the terms of some amoral corporation most 
certainly not.

I am looking forward to the practical demonstration on how the board will 
implement their recently made commitment to open channels with that:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2020-August/007095.html


-- 
Christoph Hormann 
http://www.imagico.de/

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