[talk-au] Vicmap data
I just tried to add some more Victoria missing road names but can't get the Vicmap imagery working in either JOSM or Potlatch. Does it still work for anyone else Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data
Nick,
It is currently working for me JOSM, this is my imagery URL:
tms:http://whoots.mapwarper.net:80/tms/{zoom}/{x}/{y}/WEB_MERCATOR/http://api.maps.vic.gov.au/geowebcacheWM/service/wms?VERSION=1.1.1TILED=true
Maybe it was down last night?
Sent:Saturday, September 13, 2014 at 6:38 PM
From:Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com
To:talk-au@openstreetmap.org talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject:[talk-au] Vicmap data
I just tried to add some more Victoria missing road names but cant get the Vicmap imagery working in either JOSM or Potlatch.
Does it still work for anyone else
Nick
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Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data
Thanks all, Got it working in JOSM now. (Just had a little error in the URL). Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data copying
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:28 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: What about this confusing one: http://bit.ly/1hXvwVK The picnic ground/campsite is literally signed No Name, and that's how everyone refers to it. I have no idea what the history is. (And there's a corner on the way up Mount Buller called 'Unnamed corner'). Well if you add the tag source:name then it should be clear that it is a real name? Rather than a description .. like Service Road, No Public Access ... in some ways I don't mind that in the name tag as it does convey information that may not be avaliable otherwise. Yes, it's unambiguous - but still confusing. One of my friends on this recent cycling trip down the Snowy thought the No Name on his GPS was a mistake in OSM. Maybe in a weird case like that we should make it name=No Name (ie, actually include the quotes), or name=No Name Picnic Ground. The tag unsigned come from the wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Noname I don't like the finality of the tag noname as that implys there is no name at all... the sign may be missing .. but it may still have a name. Even just a local name that the locals use to idntify it. Agreed. Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data copying
On Sat, 2014-05-17 at 22:12 +1000, Steve Bennett wrote: Hi David, The policy shift you're advocating is enormous.. No, no Steve, I worded my last letter really badly and totally apologise if I unintentionally offended anyone. My comment related specifically to your line - Yeah. I'm still deciding what to do about places where Vicmap shows a track in the bush that can't be seen on any imagery - probably because the vegetation is too dense. I meant leave the 'grey' areas to the survey people. There are many roads (and particularly tracks) that cannot been seen clearly on the imagery, and many more where some parts cannot be seen. I'd rather the people working with imagery or other non (recent) survey data such as Vic Maps did not make educated guesses but go and have a look, or ask some else to go and have a look. I have had a road (into a new estate) removed, apparently because it did not show up on Bing. Very annoying to a new owner there who was directing tradies via OSM ! But that in no way means I don't value the armchair mappers contribution. I'd just like them to double check their data, one way or another before committing. Maybe what we need is some sort of register ? The people studying imagery are good at picking up anomalies, differences between image and map. They could log it and have some local go and check ? Better than just jumping in. You may be amused to know that some years ago, I was shocked to discover I had apparently built my house in the middle of the Bendigo Region National Park. I was waiting to get a letter telling me to move it when I realised someone had just followed the tree line, assuming all was national park. They had swept up the Park it self, the Welsford State Forest, Sugarloaf Conservation Park and a large number of private properties. A very quick check would have prevented that error. I am pretty sure all we want is for the database to have accurate, relevant data. David On Sat, 2014-05-17 at 22:12 +1000, Steve Bennett wrote: On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 8:31 AM, David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net wrote: Guys, can I respectfully suggest that source=survey ? Vicmaps (and others) sometimes show roads that have been closed, land sold off etc. Those roads will show up in imagery because the car tracks last a long time on the ground. Further, visiting the site can clarify the state and status of a road. Road names on published maps are sometimes wrong, lets not propagate those errors ! Lets restrict mapping via imagery to those situations where survey is not possible. Hi David, The policy shift you're advocating is enormous. You're proposing that virtually all armchair mapping cease, that the rate of OSM mapping be reduced by 100x, and that many contributors essentially stop mapping. Naturally, I oppose this suggestion :) You seem to be falling into the trap of assuming there is some kind of aerial imagery vs survey choice. Obviously the best thing for OSM is both. Advantages of aerial mapping: - many times faster - more accurate than GPS traces in some/many/most cases - contribution from people for whom site surveys are not practical/possible/desirable - quickly do the groundwork so a site survey is more efficient and focuses on relevant details Advantages of site surveys: - get details that can't be obtained from the air - GPS traces more accurate than aerial mapping in some/many/most cases - fun (for some people) Me, I do a lot of aerial mapping. When I'm out and about I try to use what I've seen to update OSM. But I don't travel hundreds of kilometres out of my way just to do a bit of site surveying. In summary: let the aerial mappers keep doing their thing, let the ground surveyors do their thing, and let's work together for the good of the project. Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data copying
On 19/05/2014 4:22 PM, David Bannon wrote:
No, no Steve, I worded my last letter really badly and totally apologise
if I unintentionally offended anyone. My comment related specifically to
your line -
Alan Greenspan --- ' /I know you think you/ understand what /you/
thought I /said/ but I'm not sure /you/ realize that what /you/ heard is
not what I meant'
Anyone who has been on the internet for a while will realise that
anything can and will be misconstrued. No one should take it personally!
I meant leave the 'grey' areas to the survey people. There are many
roads (and particularly tracks) that cannot been seen clearly on the
imagery, and many more where some parts cannot be seen. I'd rather the
people working with imagery or other non (recent) survey data such as
Vic Maps did not make educated guesses but go and have a look, or
ask some else to go and have a look.
Humm .. there are places I've been before GPS... One example:
I know the road is there as I've been on it. However it is now closed
for vehicles - inside a National Park. I've mapped bits of it into OSM
as it may be of use to walkers. The bit I cannot 'see' with imagery I've
connected with very apparent straight lines. I do have copyright maps of
the area but I'm not looking at those now (they were current when I was
there ... many years ago!). I'm not going back there, I've many other
(new to me) places to go. Nor would I request someone to go there.
Someone probably will go there .. but I'll leave their interest and trip
up to them. So I'm adding stuff that I think is of use, an indication
rather than accurate in some places .. but those bits are straight lines
and anyone who knows the area will know that those are not 'truth'.
For places I've not been to yet and have an interest in .. I'll map the
bits I can see. So I can use the OSM map better when I get there. I do
have current maps of those areas too .. with written descriptions and
photos .. but I don't use those to put info on OSM either.Nor do I
connect th ebits .. as I don't know that they are connected (yet).
I have had a road (into a new estate) removed, apparently because it
did not show up on Bing.
I'm against removing stuff of any description .. unless you really know
it is not there. And as you say the only way to 'know' is to got there
(or have been before, even then things change). Same for changing it,
don't change unless you 'know'.
I've been deleting the tag name={Unnamed] and adding the tag
unsigned=yes, in one case I 'know' the roads name .. but my source I
remember as a street directory . So I cannot use it untill the memory
fades a bit more. In most cases I've been past some of the roads .. and
there is no street sign (indeed most have no power poles nor street
lighting). In this case I think it can be changed without 'knowing' as
the intent is clear - there is no local sign to get a name from .. at
least not when the tag was added.
So .. my take as always
Rules were made for the guidance of the wise,
and the obedience of fools.
To be wise though you have to know the intent, and ramifications ...
becarefull as to where you place yourself.
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Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data copying
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:22 PM, David Bannon dban...@internode.on.netwrote: No, no Steve, I worded my last letter really badly and totally apologise if I unintentionally offended anyone. My comment related specifically to your line - Ok, no worries :) Yeah. I'm still deciding what to do about places where Vicmap shows a track in the bush that can't be seen on any imagery - probably because the vegetation is too dense. I meant leave the 'grey' areas to the survey people. There are many roads (and particularly tracks) that cannot been seen clearly on the imagery, and many more where some parts cannot be seen. I'd rather the people working with imagery or other non (recent) survey data such as Vic Maps did not make educated guesses but go and have a look, or ask some else to go and have a look. Yeah, it's a real issue. Like I said, I'm still trying to work out how best to proceed. My general approach is to be a bit more liberal with roads that don't go through, and more conservative with ones that do. I'm also trying to use fixme=* to express doubt: fixme=unverified from vicmap (ie, I can't see through the vegetation, so I'm taking vicmap's word for it) fixme=verify access (I can see a track, vicmap has a track, but I'm still a little skeptical that it's public access) Sometimes I also use highway=path rather than highway=track if I'm dubious that the public can drive a vehicle down it. My intention in all this is to minimise the chance that someone gets routed down a road that is not publicly accessible, or otherwise impassable. Personally, I think it's ok to show dead-end 4WD tracks that happen to not be driveable, because I think the people that use those kinds of maps expect that. But definitely willing to discuss this point, and open to all opinions... I have had a road (into a new estate) removed, apparently because it did not show up on Bing. Very annoying to a new owner there who was directing tradies via OSM ! But that in no way means I don't value the armchair mappers contribution. I'd suggest adding notes on to the road in question, like note=This road was built in early 2014 and is surveyed. I'd just like them to double check their data, one way or another before committing. To be honest, I go so much faster if I'm not doing any checking - you might be surprised how fast I map :) It doesn't really make sense to spend 10 minutes verifying a road that I created in 10 seconds - I just take the chance that I'm introducing a couple of errors. But mostly I'm doing stuff out in the bush. I'm usually pretty cautious about deleting anything like you describe. I have come across a couple where I just couldn't fathom why someone had drawn a road somewhere, but I'll usually cross-check against a couple of other sources. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/172612474 Maybe what we need is some sort of register ? The people studying imagery are good at picking up anomalies, differences between image and map. They could log it and have some local go and check ? Better than just jumping in. Are there enough of us to make it worthwhile? Anyway, a better mechanism would probably be through fixme=*, so you can go and look for fixme's in your area at your leisure. You may be amused to know that some years ago, I was shocked to discover I had apparently built my house in the middle of the Bendigo Region National Park. I was waiting to get a letter telling me to move it when I realised someone had just followed the tree line, assuming all was national park. They had swept up the Park it self, the Welsford State Forest, Sugarloaf Conservation Park and a large number of private properties. A very quick check would have prevented that error. Yeah, that seems pretty silly. Although IMHO we need a better approach to maintaining administrative boundaries - it doesn't really make sense for anyone to be able to move them at will, since there is a genuine authority for each. I am pretty sure all we want is for the database to have accurate, relevant data. You left out comprehensive and useful. I think I have a higher tolerance for error because I want OSM to be useful and complete-ish *now*. I use it on a regular basis for planning trips, and I can't wait a few years for all the checking. I'd rather a pretty complete map with a few errors which will be corrected over time. But that's all it is - different priorities. Maybe I think 98% accuracy is enough, whereas you want 99.5% - and someone else might want 99.95%... Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data copying
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
Humm .. there are places I've been before GPS... One example:
I know the road is there as I've been on it. However it is now closed for
vehicles - inside a National Park. I've mapped bits of it into OSM as it
may be of use to walkers. The bit I cannot 'see' with imagery I've
connected with very apparent straight lines. I do have copyright maps of
the area but I'm not looking at those now (they were current when I was
there ... many years ago!). I'm not going back there, I've many other (new
to me) places to go. Nor would I request someone to go there. Someone
probably will go there .. but I'll leave their interest and trip up to
them. So I'm adding stuff that I think is of use, an indication rather than
accurate in some places .. but those bits are straight lines and anyone who
knows the area will know that those are not 'truth'.
Yeah, someone (you?) added lots of tracks through the Victorian Alps in
very low detail. It was actually incredibly helpful, and really motivated
me to go through and improve them all - rather than starting from a blank
slate. And in certain areas, I get a real kick out of doing very high
quality aerial mapping like this: http://bit.ly/1hXv9KZ
I've been deleting the tag name={Unnamed] and adding the tag
unsigned=yes, in one case I 'know' the roads name .. but my source I
remember as a street directory . So I cannot use it untill the memory fades
a bit more. In most cases I've been past some of the roads .. and there is
no street sign (indeed most have no power poles nor street lighting). In
this case I think it can be changed without 'knowing' as the intent is
clear - there is no local sign to get a name from .. at least not when the
tag was added.
Sounds sensible.
What about this confusing one: http://bit.ly/1hXvwVK
The picnic ground/campsite is literally signed No Name, and that's how
everyone refers to it. I have no idea what the history is. (And there's a
corner on the way up Mount Buller called 'Unnamed corner').
Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data copying
On 19/05/2014 11:42 PM, Steve Bennett wrote:
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com
mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
Humm .. there are places I've been before GPS... One example:
I know the road is there as I've been on it. However it is now
closed for vehicles - inside a National Park. I've mapped bits of
it into OSM as it may be of use to walkers. The bit I cannot 'see'
with imagery I've connected with very apparent straight lines. I
do have copyright maps of the area but I'm not looking at those
now (they were current when I was there ... many years ago!). I'm
not going back there, I've many other (new to me) places to go.
Nor would I request someone to go there. Someone probably will go
there .. but I'll leave their interest and trip up to them. So I'm
adding stuff that I think is of use, an indication rather than
accurate in some places .. but those bits are straight lines and
anyone who knows the area will know that those are not 'truth'.
Yeah, someone (you?) added lots of tracks through the Victorian Alps
in very low detail. It was actually incredibly helpful, and really
motivated me to go through and improve them all - rather than starting
from a blank slate. And in certain areas, I get a real kick out of
doing very high quality aerial mapping like this: http://bit.ly/1hXv9KZ
Glad it helps, and should have made a good trip. And ... no I don't
think that was me ... NSW, Tas, some bits along the Nullabor IIRC.
I've been deleting the tag name={Unnamed] and adding the tag
unsigned=yes, in one case I 'know' the roads name .. but my
source I remember as a street directory . So I cannot use it
untill the memory fades a bit more. In most cases I've been past
some of the roads .. and there is no street sign (indeed most have
no power poles nor street lighting). In this case I think it can
be changed without 'knowing' as the intent is clear - there is no
local sign to get a name from .. at least not when the tag was added.
Sounds sensible.
What about this confusing one: http://bit.ly/1hXvwVK
The picnic ground/campsite is literally signed No Name, and that's
how everyone refers to it. I have no idea what the history is. (And
there's a corner on the way up Mount Buller called 'Unnamed corner').
Well if you add the tag source:name then it should be clear that it is a
real name? Rather than a description .. like Service Road, No Public
Access ... in some ways I don't mind that in the name tag as it does
convey information that may not be avaliable otherwise.
The tag unsigned come from the wiki
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Noname
I don't like the finality of the tag noname as that implys there is no
name at all... the sign may be missing .. but it may still have a name.
Even just a local name that the locals use to idntify it.
I tend to map stuff that is there .. as even if you cannot use it for
access (closed for whatever reason) you can use it for navigation .. but
there are other views.
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/6728/tagging-historicunsignedunmaintained-trails
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[talk-au] Vicmap data copying
Am I correct in saying that it is permissable to copy street names from the VicMap into OSM? Also - what about the house numbers, is that ok as well? I have neither the time, talent or inclination to do an import of house numbers, but would help out in any manual effort to add all house numbers for Victoria into OSM. Is such an import envisaged because, if so, then I wouldn't want to muddy the waters by starting to manually add them. Also - I remember someone saying that Gold Coast roade name data was available. Is this available yet for josm or potlach since I would love to get the rest of the roads named up there? Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data copying
Hi Nick, From Li Xia's email on 10/10/13: I had a meeting with Vicmap staff today in regards to importing Vicmap data into OSM under the CC license. They are very excited about the community showing interest in their data and are have clarified that importing it is fine. I'm not clear on whether we need to add any attribution tags, but for now when I trace stuff from Vicmap, I just add source=vicmap. IMHO some small scale imports may be useful, but from my comparisons, the VicMap data is not necessarily better than OSM. It often has stuff OSM doesn't, but sometimes that includes spurious stuff like roads that no longer exist, never did, etc. Steve On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.comwrote: Am I correct in saying that it is permissable to copy street names from the VicMap into OSM? Also - what about the house numbers, is that ok as well? I have neither the time, talent or inclination to do an import of house numbers, but would help out in any manual effort to add all house numbers for Victoria into OSM. Is such an import envisaged because, if so, then I wouldn't want to muddy the waters by starting to manually add them. Also - I remember someone saying that Gold Coast roade name data was available. Is this available yet for josm or potlach since I would love to get the rest of the roads named up there? Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data copying
Steve wrote IMHO some small scale imports may be useful, but from my comparisons, the VicMap data is not necessarily better than OSM. It often has stuff OSM doesn't, but sometimes that includes spurious stuff like roads that no longer exist, never did, etc. Thanks Steve, As far as importing goes, I'm only talking about house numbers (since they are so hard to collect by survey). I definitely think that road names must NOT be imported but added individually, where current osm data and bing imagery indicate that there really is a road (currently OSM unamed) there. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data copying
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.comwrote: Steve wrote IMHO some small scale imports may be useful, but from my comparisons, the VicMap data is not necessarily better than OSM. It often has stuff OSM doesn't, but sometimes that includes spurious stuff like roads that no longer exist, never did, etc. Thanks Steve, As far as importing goes, I'm only talking about house numbers (since they are so hard to collect by survey). Yeah, house numbers are probably a really good example where in most places we have zero data. I definitely think that road names must NOT be imported but added individually, where current osm data and bing imagery indicate that there really is a road (currently OSM unamed) there. Yeah. I'm still deciding what to do about places where Vicmap shows a track in the bush that can't be seen on any imagery - probably because the vegetation is too dense. Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data copying
On Thu, 2014-05-15 at 18:02 +1000, Steve Bennett wrote: On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com (sensible statements about house numbers) I definitely think that road names must NOT be imported but added individually, where current osm data and bing imagery indicate that there really is a road (currently OSM unamed) there. Yeah. I'm still deciding what to do about places where Vicmap shows a track in the bush that can't be seen on any imagery - probably because the vegetation is too dense. Guys, can I respectfully suggest that source=survey ? Vicmaps (and others) sometimes show roads that have been closed, land sold off etc. Those roads will show up in imagery because the car tracks last a long time on the ground. Further, visiting the site can clarify the state and status of a road. Road names on published maps are sometimes wrong, lets not propagate those errors ! Lets restrict mapping via imagery to those situations where survey is not possible. David Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] vicmap data licensing
Hi Nyall, Starting simple is a great suggestion. Importing the massive vicmap dataset will be a huge project. To keep track of it all, would starting a wiki page and outline requirements, methods and progress be useful in coordinate this effort? In regards to existing data, such as LGAs, non existent what so ever is simple, just import the vicmap data. What if there is some data, but very little amount of it? Options are to: 1. Delete existing and import new. 2. Determine duplicates and work around them. Which of the above option is best practice? Li. On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Nyall Dawson nyall.daw...@gmail.comwrote: Maybe a good approach would be to start with the easy things first. It should be quite straightforward to import the boundary information like postcodes and LGA borders. Unless I'm mistaken, these boundaries are basically non-existent in Victoria OSM at the moment. Property boundaries would be another good candidate like this - there should be very little existing information we'd need to worry about. Nyall On 11 October 2013 07:37, Li m...@lixia.co wrote: Does anyone have experience on importing data? In particular avoiding duplicates? Li. On 10 Oct 2013, at 5:16 pm, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I guess the thing to consider is how you would handle a second import if someone had edited the data in OSM in between. I think this kind of conflict would be very difficult to resolve. You could either plan to do a 1-off import, or maybe include a tag on the imported data matching a unique identifier for the same feature in the vicmap data. The US Tiger import did something like this. - Ben Kelley. On 10 Oct 2013 17:12, Li Xia m...@lixia.co wrote: Hi everyone, I'm meeting Vicmap and data.gov staff tomorrow to get their blessing on importing vicmap data into OSM. Once the licensing is squared away, we can move onto discussing techniques of importing the data. Snapshot data in shp format is available from data.vic.gov.au. Alternatively a vicmap provides a live feed to weekly data diffs directly. Any advice on how to import this data is much appreciated. Li ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] vicmap data licensing
Option 1 seems to me like the better way to go. JOSM can also read and display shp files, conversion may not be necessary. Key is to make the vicmap data easy to access. Currently they are available from data.vic.gov.au in SHP and WMS. I'll write up some instructions on how to access this data on the wiki page. Li. On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 9:43 AM, Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com wrote: I see there are two ways we can approach this. One is to make the data available in OSM form. People can use information to trace/import to complete the map as they go about their daily mapping. Secondly, we can have a complete plan as to how we import bits that we know come from good sources and should complement/replace existing OSM data. If we import LGA and postcodes, we immediately need to consider things like what happens when these align with coastlines, or with each other, or with suburb boundaries? Probably other things too. Worst case is, as has been done on some occasions in the past, is for the import to be done and to leave hundreds of thousands of fixmes scattered around the country. Ian. On 14 October 2013 08:21, Nyall Dawson nyall.daw...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe a good approach would be to start with the easy things first. It should be quite straightforward to import the boundary information like postcodes and LGA borders. Unless I'm mistaken, these boundaries are basically non-existent in Victoria OSM at the moment. Property boundaries would be another good candidate like this - there should be very little existing information we'd need to worry about. Nyall On 11 October 2013 07:37, Li m...@lixia.co wrote: Does anyone have experience on importing data? In particular avoiding duplicates? Li. On 10 Oct 2013, at 5:16 pm, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I guess the thing to consider is how you would handle a second import if someone had edited the data in OSM in between. I think this kind of conflict would be very difficult to resolve. You could either plan to do a 1-off import, or maybe include a tag on the imported data matching a unique identifier for the same feature in the vicmap data. The US Tiger import did something like this. - Ben Kelley. On 10 Oct 2013 17:12, Li Xia m...@lixia.co wrote: Hi everyone, I'm meeting Vicmap and data.gov staff tomorrow to get their blessing on importing vicmap data into OSM. Once the licensing is squared away, we can move onto discussing techniques of importing the data. Snapshot data in shp format is available from data.vic.gov.au. Alternatively a vicmap provides a live feed to weekly data diffs directly. Any advice on how to import this data is much appreciated. Li ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] vicmap data licensing
Cut the data into small chunks (0.25 x 0.25 deg). Load each chunk it into josm. Download the relevant area to a separate layer. Compare with what is already there. Expect to spend a least 2 hours with each chunk depending on what data your adding. Cheers Ross On 11/10/13 06:37, Li wrote: Does anyone have experience on importing data? In particular avoiding duplicates? Li. On 10 Oct 2013, at 5:16 pm, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com mailto:ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I guess the thing to consider is how you would handle a second import if someone had edited the data in OSM in between. I think this kind of conflict would be very difficult to resolve. You could either plan to do a 1-off import, or maybe include a tag on the imported data matching a unique identifier for the same feature in the vicmap data. The US Tiger import did something like this. - Ben Kelley. On 10 Oct 2013 17:12, Li Xia m...@lixia.co mailto:m...@lixia.co wrote: Hi everyone, I'm meeting Vicmap and data.gov http://data.gov staff tomorrow to get their blessing on importing vicmap data into OSM. Once the licensing is squared away, we can move onto discussing techniques of importing the data. Snapshot data in shp format is available from data.vic.gov.au http://data.vic.gov.au. Alternatively a vicmap provides a live feed to weekly data diffs directly. Any advice on how to import this data is much appreciated. Li ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] vicmap data licensing
Maybe a good approach would be to start with the easy things first. It should be quite straightforward to import the boundary information like postcodes and LGA borders. Unless I'm mistaken, these boundaries are basically non-existent in Victoria OSM at the moment. Property boundaries would be another good candidate like this - there should be very little existing information we'd need to worry about. Nyall On 11 October 2013 07:37, Li m...@lixia.co wrote: Does anyone have experience on importing data? In particular avoiding duplicates? Li. On 10 Oct 2013, at 5:16 pm, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I guess the thing to consider is how you would handle a second import if someone had edited the data in OSM in between. I think this kind of conflict would be very difficult to resolve. You could either plan to do a 1-off import, or maybe include a tag on the imported data matching a unique identifier for the same feature in the vicmap data. The US Tiger import did something like this. - Ben Kelley. On 10 Oct 2013 17:12, Li Xia m...@lixia.co wrote: Hi everyone, I'm meeting Vicmap and data.gov staff tomorrow to get their blessing on importing vicmap data into OSM. Once the licensing is squared away, we can move onto discussing techniques of importing the data. Snapshot data in shp format is available from data.vic.gov.au. Alternatively a vicmap provides a live feed to weekly data diffs directly. Any advice on how to import this data is much appreciated. Li ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] vicmap data licensing
I see there are two ways we can approach this. One is to make the data available in OSM form. People can use information to trace/import to complete the map as they go about their daily mapping. Secondly, we can have a complete plan as to how we import bits that we know come from good sources and should complement/replace existing OSM data. If we import LGA and postcodes, we immediately need to consider things like what happens when these align with coastlines, or with each other, or with suburb boundaries? Probably other things too. Worst case is, as has been done on some occasions in the past, is for the import to be done and to leave hundreds of thousands of fixmes scattered around the country. Ian. On 14 October 2013 08:21, Nyall Dawson nyall.daw...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe a good approach would be to start with the easy things first. It should be quite straightforward to import the boundary information like postcodes and LGA borders. Unless I'm mistaken, these boundaries are basically non-existent in Victoria OSM at the moment. Property boundaries would be another good candidate like this - there should be very little existing information we'd need to worry about. Nyall On 11 October 2013 07:37, Li m...@lixia.co wrote: Does anyone have experience on importing data? In particular avoiding duplicates? Li. On 10 Oct 2013, at 5:16 pm, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I guess the thing to consider is how you would handle a second import if someone had edited the data in OSM in between. I think this kind of conflict would be very difficult to resolve. You could either plan to do a 1-off import, or maybe include a tag on the imported data matching a unique identifier for the same feature in the vicmap data. The US Tiger import did something like this. - Ben Kelley. On 10 Oct 2013 17:12, Li Xia m...@lixia.co wrote: Hi everyone, I'm meeting Vicmap and data.gov staff tomorrow to get their blessing on importing vicmap data into OSM. Once the licensing is squared away, we can move onto discussing techniques of importing the data. Snapshot data in shp format is available from data.vic.gov.au. Alternatively a vicmap provides a live feed to weekly data diffs directly. Any advice on how to import this data is much appreciated. Li ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] vicmap data licensing
Hi Li I'm convinced that you will find that it is practically impossible to mass import (or even mass merge) a new road dataset into existing data when there is a large amount of existing data. The only practical way would be to delete all of the Victorian data and start again with the mass import. This would destroy OSM Victoria. Using high quality external data to complete the existing data is a realistic and not to difficult job. Firstly any existing roads that lost their names in the licence change (or had only ever been traced rather than surveyed in the first place) will appear highlighted in OSMI and can easily be named using vicmap data by any number of armchair mappers. This is an easy and enjoyable task. Also the vicmapdata will probably have a lot of roads that are new or that have never been traced or surveyed in OSM. These can easily be identified by overlaying the vicmap data in one JOSM layer and the existing data in another. Using correct transparency and colouring the new roads stand out like.oops. Then the vicmap data (on a road by road basis) can be click selected and merged into the existing layer with all its tags. If a whole neighbourhood is new then it may be merged as a unit. You will have to manually connect the new road/s to existing ones but that is also easy. Bing imagery (which is very good in Australia) can aslo be used, at the same time, to verify or tweak the vicmap data as it is manually merged. All this results in excellent road data which will be better than any other prroviders, by a wide margin. I do this every year that new TIGER data comes out and I make sure a few cities in the USA are updated in this fashion. Every time vicmap produce new datasets this process can easily be repeated, without having to do a whole new mass import. Of course, ideally, local mappers will have surveyed any new roads way before vicmap have produced a new data set. This certainly happens in Canberra - which reminds me, there may be three of four new roads open today - I'll go have a look in a minute or two. Given the current amount of good quality existing Victorian road data in OSM, the task of getting it perfect using vicmapdata will not take too long. Of even more use would be if there is cadastral data available. This is absolutely essential if OSM is to ever succeed and this data is not easily surveyed. Walking around with a pad an pencil peering into people's letterboxes or doors is not safe or enjoyable. Therefore this data is ideal to be mass imported. (especially as it would probably be high quality data). Even then you would have to be careful not to step on peoples toes who had already done a street or two. Maybe you could import address info on a street by street basis and if your import program found any existing address data, it could ignore that street and create a list somewhere that people could use to do a partial manual import from vicmap data. How you programmatically compare streets in OSM and Vicmapdata is the difficult bit. No one in OSM has ever been brave (or maybe clever) enough to achieve this yet and I certainly couldn't. Mass imports only can work if there is no (or almost no) existing data. USA found this out when the mass import of TIGER data, effectively destroyed the USA OSM community and it has taken nearly ten years to recover. Unfortunately the original TIGER data was/is very low quality in terms of geometry and this still plagues the USA data to this day (and probably for the next 5 years or so). I'm sure that people in OSM-US can help in converting vicmap data into an imagery layer (and may even host it for you as well :-) Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] vicmap data licensing
Hi everyone, I'm meeting Vicmap and data.gov staff tomorrow to get their blessing on importing vicmap data into OSM. Once the licensing is squared away, we can move onto discussing techniques of importing the data. Snapshot data in shp format is available from data.vic.gov.au. Alternatively a vicmap provides a live feed to weekly data diffs directly. Any advice on how to import this data is much appreciated. Li ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] vicmap data licensing
Does anyone have experience on importing data? In particular avoiding duplicates? Li. On 10 Oct 2013, at 5:16 pm, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I guess the thing to consider is how you would handle a second import if someone had edited the data in OSM in between. I think this kind of conflict would be very difficult to resolve. You could either plan to do a 1-off import, or maybe include a tag on the imported data matching a unique identifier for the same feature in the vicmap data. The US Tiger import did something like this. - Ben Kelley. On 10 Oct 2013 17:12, Li Xia m...@lixia.co wrote: Hi everyone, I'm meeting Vicmap and data.gov staff tomorrow to get their blessing on importing vicmap data into OSM. Once the licensing is squared away, we can move onto discussing techniques of importing the data. Snapshot data in shp format is available from data.vic.gov.au. Alternatively a vicmap provides a live feed to weekly data diffs directly. Any advice on how to import this data is much appreciated. Li ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] vicmap data licensing
Hi Li Does the vicmap[ data include road geometry and road names. If so then a really usefull thing to do would be to create an imagery layer from this data that could be used in JOSM. This is what is done in the USA with each year's TIGER data. Then we could use the Bing imagery the vicmap layer and existing data to fill in all the unnamed streets/roads and include any new ones or ones that have not yet been surveyed or traced. It would only be a matter of months and all of Victoria's roads would be completely up to date. Curerently, I'm spending hours each day using the TIGER data and Bing imagery in helping to fix up the horrible original TIGER data but would love to be helping in fixing up Australia. Nick Hocking Canberra ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data released on data.gov.au
Sweet, very exciting and willing to lend a hand in the import process. Also have a few contacts in Vicmap, and will email Nyall Dawson directly. What tools are available for importing data (and removing duplicates) Li. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 10:00 PM, talk-au-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote: Send Talk-au mailing list submissions to talk-au@openstreetmap.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to talk-au-requ...@openstreetmap.org You can reach the person managing the list at talk-au-ow...@openstreetmap.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Talk-au digest... Today's Topics: 1. Vicmap data released on data.gov.au (Nyall Dawson) 2. Re: Vicmap data released on data.gov.au (Ian Sergeant) 3. Re: Vicmap data released on data.gov.au (Paul Norman) 4. Re: Vicmap data released on data.gov.au (Nyall Dawson) -- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 09:27:15 +1000 From: Nyall Dawson nyall.daw...@gmail.com To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: [talk-au] Vicmap data released on data.gov.au Message-ID: CAB28AsgZPt3Dw4WAuwRSYA_Jm=x+3v428= v7mifeedxbger...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, I'm not sure if this has been raised yet, but in the last week the entire VicMap dataset was released on data.vic.gov.au under a CC-Attribution 3.0 license. This includes the entire address [1], roads [2], parcel boundaries [3], and administration boundaries [4] for Victoria. I gather by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution/data.gov.au_explicit_permission that we're OK to use data from data.gov.au for OSM. Does anyone know if this is still the case, and if so, how we could go about getting this data into osm? I'm willing to do any hard work required, but don't want to duplicate effort and first want to see if there's already any ongoing discussion about this data release. Regards, Nyall Dawson 1. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/address-vicmap-address/748 2. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/road-network-vicmap-transport/4877 3. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/parcel-view-vicmap-property/2038 4. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/locality-boundaries-property-polygon-vicmap-admin/2043 http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/local-government-area-boundaries-property-polygon-vicmap-admin/2039 -- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 10:09:54 +1000 From: Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com To: Nyall Dawson nyall.daw...@gmail.com Cc: OSM - Talk-au talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data released on data.gov.au Message-ID: calda4yjby0bzvngqvkr3j91lzonefgu8p0x7fewr7exrtuh...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 We should send an email to the data owner to seek permission under our contributor terms. I don't think there is any relationship between data.vic.gov.au and data.gov.au, so I don't see how any permission we have is relevant to this. Ian. On 8 July 2013 09:27, Nyall Dawson nyall.daw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I'm not sure if this has been raised yet, but in the last week the entire VicMap dataset was released on data.vic.gov.au under a CC-Attribution 3.0 license. This includes the entire address [1], roads [2], parcel boundaries [3], and administration boundaries [4] for Victoria. I gather by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution/data.gov.au_explicit_permission that we're OK to use data from data.gov.au for OSM. Does anyone know if this is still the case, and if so, how we could go about getting this data into osm? I'm willing to do any hard work required, but don't want to duplicate effort and first want to see if there's already any ongoing discussion about this data release. Regards, Nyall Dawson 1. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/address-vicmap-address/748 2. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/road-network-vicmap-transport/4877 3. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/parcel-view-vicmap-property/2038 4. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/locality-boundaries-property-polygon-vicmap-admin/2043 http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/local-government-area-boundaries-property-polygon-vicmap-admin/2039 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/attachments/20130708/b953cea8/attachment-0001.html -- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2013 17:28:03 -0700 From: Paul Norman penor...@mac.com
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data released on data.gov.au
Hi Nyall, Yeah I'm quite interested to know more about this. I gather the Spatial DataMart has been around a while, so is the difference that they've published it on data.vic.gov.au and made it accessible to the public? Or is it the licensing that has changed? Might be worth having a meetup to discuss what we can do with all this data. Steve On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 1:43 PM, Nyall Dawson nyall.daw...@gmail.com wrote: All we need from them is a statement that a notice associated with the Produced Work reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses, views, accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from the Database, Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a Collective Database, and that it is available under this License (ODbL 4.3) meets the requirements of a notice reasonable to the medium. Basically, that the attribution required by the ODbL is enough. Some cities have viewed CC BY's reasonable to the medium to mean every data source needs to be credited directly on a web map. Great -- this is exactly what I needed to know. I've attempted to get in contact with the appropriate person at data.vic.gov.au, I'll report back here how this goes. Cheers, Nyall Dawson ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data released on data.gov.au
On 9 July 2013 13:51, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Nyall, Yeah I'm quite interested to know more about this. I gather the Spatial DataMart has been around a while, so is the difference that they've published it on data.vic.gov.au and made it accessible to the public? Or is it the licensing that has changed? Actually it's both - previously DataMart was only accessible by authorised users. The CC-BY license is new too.. (although I'm not sure exactly what license the data used to be under, it definitely wasn't a free license like this). Might be worth having a meetup to discuss what we can do with all this data. I'm keen for this. My request has been forwarded to the DTF, so I'll hopefully have some more info when they get back to me. Cheers, Nyall ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Vicmap data released on data.gov.au
Hi all, I'm not sure if this has been raised yet, but in the last week the entire VicMap dataset was released on data.vic.gov.au under a CC-Attribution 3.0 license. This includes the entire address [1], roads [2], parcel boundaries [3], and administration boundaries [4] for Victoria. I gather by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution/data.gov.au_explicit_permission that we're OK to use data from data.gov.au for OSM. Does anyone know if this is still the case, and if so, how we could go about getting this data into osm? I'm willing to do any hard work required, but don't want to duplicate effort and first want to see if there's already any ongoing discussion about this data release. Regards, Nyall Dawson 1. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/address-vicmap-address/748 2. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/road-network-vicmap-transport/4877 3. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/parcel-view-vicmap-property/2038 4. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/locality-boundaries-property-polygon-vicmap-admin/2043 http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/local-government-area-boundaries-property-polygon-vicmap-admin/2039 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data released on data.gov.au
We should send an email to the data owner to seek permission under our contributor terms. I don't think there is any relationship between data.vic.gov.au and data.gov.au, so I don't see how any permission we have is relevant to this. Ian. On 8 July 2013 09:27, Nyall Dawson nyall.daw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I'm not sure if this has been raised yet, but in the last week the entire VicMap dataset was released on data.vic.gov.au under a CC-Attribution 3.0 license. This includes the entire address [1], roads [2], parcel boundaries [3], and administration boundaries [4] for Victoria. I gather by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution/data.gov.au_explicit_permission that we're OK to use data from data.gov.au for OSM. Does anyone know if this is still the case, and if so, how we could go about getting this data into osm? I'm willing to do any hard work required, but don't want to duplicate effort and first want to see if there's already any ongoing discussion about this data release. Regards, Nyall Dawson 1. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/address-vicmap-address/748 2. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/road-network-vicmap-transport/4877 3. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/parcel-view-vicmap-property/2038 4. http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/locality-boundaries-property-polygon-vicmap-admin/2043 http://www.data.vic.gov.au/raw_data/local-government-area-boundaries-property-polygon-vicmap-admin/2039 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data released on data.gov.au
From: Nyall Dawson [mailto:nyall.daw...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2013 4:27 PM To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: [talk-au] Vicmap data released on data.gov.au Hi all, I'm not sure if this has been raised yet, but in the last week the entire VicMap dataset was released on data.vic.gov.au under a CC- Attribution 3.0 license. This includes the entire address [1], roads [2], parcel boundaries [3], and administration boundaries [4] for Victoria. I gather by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution/data.gov.au_explicit_perm ission that we're OK to use data from data.gov.au for OSM. Does anyone know if this is still the case, and if so, how we could go about getting this data into osm? I'm willing to do any hard work required, but don't want to duplicate effort and first want to see if there's already any ongoing discussion about this data release. All we need from them is a statement that a notice associated with the Produced Work reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses, views, accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from the Database, Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a Collective Database, and that it is available under this License (ODbL 4.3) meets the requirements of a notice reasonable to the medium. Basically, that the attribution required by the ODbL is enough. Some cities have viewed CC BY's reasonable to the medium to mean every data source needs to be credited directly on a web map. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data released on data.gov.au
All we need from them is a statement that a notice associated with the Produced Work reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses, views, accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from the Database, Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a Collective Database, and that it is available under this License (ODbL 4.3) meets the requirements of a notice reasonable to the medium. Basically, that the attribution required by the ODbL is enough. Some cities have viewed CC BY's reasonable to the medium to mean every data source needs to be credited directly on a web map. Great -- this is exactly what I needed to know. I've attempted to get in contact with the appropriate person at data.vic.gov.au, I'll report back here how this goes. Cheers, Nyall Dawson ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
