Re: [OSM-talk-be] hoe map ik een bus halte ? :-) / how to map a bus stop ? :-)
All bus stops of De Lijn have timetable information, so I don't see why we'd map that explicitely. I think the same goes for TEC. Even the stops of TEC I can verify in Flanders have timetables. Sometimes the name is present in big letters on the shelter. I don't see why we'd map that either. A €1 pole with real time information does seem interesting to tag, although they don't work more than half the time... Another tag that might make sense for a shelter is lit=yes. Some shelters, at least in Flanders, have solar panels on top and when it gets dark a small lamp can turn on when somebody moves around in the shelter. Still, even that is much detail with very little benefit, except maybe for those who are into statistics. If we'd ever manage to actually map all of those. Anyway, I'm mostly interested in adding information to stops, so they can be identified for use in route relations and to indicate whether there are facilities for disabled people, but that is rather detail to be added to the highway=platform/public_transport=platform way. tactile_paving and wheelchair. Cheers, Jo 2014-08-21 7:24 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: Just to make it clear: the picture is not about tagging bus lines, it's about tagging bus stops. You refer to a page on the routes. Furthermore. it was not a question, I just found it a nice summary for what's in the wiki (probably somewhere under the public transport pages). Hence the smiley in the subject :-) There were a couple of tags that I had not heard of before (strip and the ones related to the time table and other information in the shelter). I doubt this information can be found in the Belgian (part of the) wiki. This does not always follows the evolution of the other communities. regards m On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 6:42 AM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2014-08-20 07:40, Marc Gemis wrote : https://twitter.com/JLZIMMERMANN/status/501356038499868672/photo/1 The answers to those questions about our conventions should be found here, Marc WikiProject Belgium/Conventions/Bus and tram lines (tagging) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Bus_and_tram_lines#Tagging so that anybody can tag without asking the same questions and getting the same or different answers over and over again. I had to made modifications to those few lines for readability. But there was no answer when I tried to raise a discussion about missing, essential infos. Mainly, how must a route extension (optional detour) be represented (unclear (at least) two separate type https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:type=route https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:type%3Droute relations)? Must the detour (e.g. a small loop that some but not all buses follow) be represented standing alone (A - B - D - E and B - C - D) or must the whole route be repeated with and without the extension (A - B - D - E and A - B - C - D - E) The problem is that let us say 3 extensions potentially make 8 whole routes. Also, if the extension is at the end of the line (A - B - D - E [- F]), is it OK to represent the route only once (A - B - C - D - E - F)? André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] hoe map ik een bus halte ? :-) / how to map a bus stop ? :-)
I'll agree that the things mentioned in the picture are often micromapping. But on the other hand how does an international app knows all this when there is no OSM+ database that contains all this country specific information ? I keep on wondering how useful the routes are for routing without timetables. An application that wants to give me the opportunity to plan my travel via public transportation needs this I think. It's of little use to tell me that I can arrive at my destination on a Sunday with bus X when that bus only passes there on weekdays. But of course, this is a totally different problem/discussion. regards m On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: All bus stops of De Lijn have timetable information, so I don't see why we'd map that explicitely. I think the same goes for TEC. Even the stops of TEC I can verify in Flanders have timetables. Sometimes the name is present in big letters on the shelter. I don't see why we'd map that either. A €1 pole with real time information does seem interesting to tag, although they don't work more than half the time... Another tag that might make sense for a shelter is lit=yes. Some shelters, at least in Flanders, have solar panels on top and when it gets dark a small lamp can turn on when somebody moves around in the shelter. Still, even that is much detail with very little benefit, except maybe for those who are into statistics. If we'd ever manage to actually map all of those. Anyway, I'm mostly interested in adding information to stops, so they can be identified for use in route relations and to indicate whether there are facilities for disabled people, but that is rather detail to be added to the highway=platform/public_transport=platform way. tactile_paving and wheelchair. Cheers, Jo 2014-08-21 7:24 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: Just to make it clear: the picture is not about tagging bus lines, it's about tagging bus stops. You refer to a page on the routes. Furthermore. it was not a question, I just found it a nice summary for what's in the wiki (probably somewhere under the public transport pages). Hence the smiley in the subject :-) There were a couple of tags that I had not heard of before (strip and the ones related to the time table and other information in the shelter). I doubt this information can be found in the Belgian (part of the) wiki. This does not always follows the evolution of the other communities. regards m On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 6:42 AM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2014-08-20 07:40, Marc Gemis wrote : https://twitter.com/JLZIMMERMANN/status/501356038499868672/photo/1 The answers to those questions about our conventions should be found here, Marc WikiProject Belgium/Conventions/Bus and tram lines (tagging) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Bus_and_tram_lines#Tagging so that anybody can tag without asking the same questions and getting the same or different answers over and over again. I had to made modifications to those few lines for readability. But there was no answer when I tried to raise a discussion about missing, essential infos. Mainly, how must a route extension (optional detour) be represented (unclear (at least) two separate type https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:type=route https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:type%3Droute relations)? Must the detour (e.g. a small loop that some but not all buses follow) be represented standing alone (A - B - D - E and B - C - D) or must the whole route be repeated with and without the extension (A - B - D - E and A - B - C - D - E) The problem is that let us say 3 extensions potentially make 8 whole routes. Also, if the extension is at the end of the line (A - B - D - E [- F]), is it OK to represent the route only once (A - B - C - D - E - F)? André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] hoe map ik een bus halte ? :-) / how to map a bus stop ? :-)
Say you have an app like Opentripplanner, the time tables are available there, but where the bus passes geographically is contained in the OSM route relations. Whether this is important or not, is another matter. It isn' t so much for routing, but it is if you want to be able to draw a map like the one you can find in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Wouters The bus routes are in pink, almost invisible as they are only of limited importance to the subject or the theme of the map. But on this page it is interesting to be able to see them, as I added descriptions about how to get to given points on the actual route: http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Ad%27s_Path Cheers, Jo 2014-08-21 9:17 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: I'll agree that the things mentioned in the picture are often micromapping. But on the other hand how does an international app knows all this when there is no OSM+ database that contains all this country specific information ? I keep on wondering how useful the routes are for routing without timetables. An application that wants to give me the opportunity to plan my travel via public transportation needs this I think. It's of little use to tell me that I can arrive at my destination on a Sunday with bus X when that bus only passes there on weekdays. But of course, this is a totally different problem/discussion. regards m On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: All bus stops of De Lijn have timetable information, so I don't see why we'd map that explicitely. I think the same goes for TEC. Even the stops of TEC I can verify in Flanders have timetables. Sometimes the name is present in big letters on the shelter. I don't see why we'd map that either. A €1 pole with real time information does seem interesting to tag, although they don't work more than half the time... Another tag that might make sense for a shelter is lit=yes. Some shelters, at least in Flanders, have solar panels on top and when it gets dark a small lamp can turn on when somebody moves around in the shelter. Still, even that is much detail with very little benefit, except maybe for those who are into statistics. If we'd ever manage to actually map all of those. Anyway, I'm mostly interested in adding information to stops, so they can be identified for use in route relations and to indicate whether there are facilities for disabled people, but that is rather detail to be added to the highway=platform/public_transport=platform way. tactile_paving and wheelchair. Cheers, Jo 2014-08-21 7:24 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: Just to make it clear: the picture is not about tagging bus lines, it's about tagging bus stops. You refer to a page on the routes. Furthermore. it was not a question, I just found it a nice summary for what's in the wiki (probably somewhere under the public transport pages). Hence the smiley in the subject :-) There were a couple of tags that I had not heard of before (strip and the ones related to the time table and other information in the shelter). I doubt this information can be found in the Belgian (part of the) wiki. This does not always follows the evolution of the other communities. regards m On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 6:42 AM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2014-08-20 07:40, Marc Gemis wrote : https://twitter.com/JLZIMMERMANN/status/501356038499868672/photo/1 The answers to those questions about our conventions should be found here, Marc WikiProject Belgium/Conventions/Bus and tram lines (tagging) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Bus_and_tram_lines#Tagging so that anybody can tag without asking the same questions and getting the same or different answers over and over again. I had to made modifications to those few lines for readability. But there was no answer when I tried to raise a discussion about missing, essential infos. Mainly, how must a route extension (optional detour) be represented (unclear (at least) two separate type https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:type=route https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:type%3Droute relations)? Must the detour (e.g. a small loop that some but not all buses follow) be represented standing alone (A - B - D - E and B - C - D) or must the whole route be repeated with and without the extension (A - B - D - E and A - B - C - D - E) The problem is that let us say 3 extensions potentially make 8 whole routes. Also, if the extension is at the end of the line (A - B - D - E [- F]), is it OK to represent the route only once (A - B - C - D - E - F)? André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] hoe map ik een bus halte ? :-) / how to map a bus stop ? :-)
So we say the same: for actual trip planning you need a time table. But of course with the current OSM data you can see which bus you have to take, which is an important first step regards m On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: Say you have an app like Opentripplanner, the time tables are available there, but where the bus passes geographically is contained in the OSM route relations. Whether this is important or not, is another matter. It isn' t so much for routing, but it is if you want to be able to draw a map like the one you can find in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Wouters The bus routes are in pink, almost invisible as they are only of limited importance to the subject or the theme of the map. But on this page it is interesting to be able to see them, as I added descriptions about how to get to given points on the actual route: http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Ad%27s_Path Cheers, Jo 2014-08-21 9:17 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: I'll agree that the things mentioned in the picture are often micromapping. But on the other hand how does an international app knows all this when there is no OSM+ database that contains all this country specific information ? I keep on wondering how useful the routes are for routing without timetables. An application that wants to give me the opportunity to plan my travel via public transportation needs this I think. It's of little use to tell me that I can arrive at my destination on a Sunday with bus X when that bus only passes there on weekdays. But of course, this is a totally different problem/discussion. regards m On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: All bus stops of De Lijn have timetable information, so I don't see why we'd map that explicitely. I think the same goes for TEC. Even the stops of TEC I can verify in Flanders have timetables. Sometimes the name is present in big letters on the shelter. I don't see why we'd map that either. A €1 pole with real time information does seem interesting to tag, although they don't work more than half the time... Another tag that might make sense for a shelter is lit=yes. Some shelters, at least in Flanders, have solar panels on top and when it gets dark a small lamp can turn on when somebody moves around in the shelter. Still, even that is much detail with very little benefit, except maybe for those who are into statistics. If we'd ever manage to actually map all of those. Anyway, I'm mostly interested in adding information to stops, so they can be identified for use in route relations and to indicate whether there are facilities for disabled people, but that is rather detail to be added to the highway=platform/public_transport=platform way. tactile_paving and wheelchair. Cheers, Jo 2014-08-21 7:24 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: Just to make it clear: the picture is not about tagging bus lines, it's about tagging bus stops. You refer to a page on the routes. Furthermore. it was not a question, I just found it a nice summary for what's in the wiki (probably somewhere under the public transport pages). Hence the smiley in the subject :-) There were a couple of tags that I had not heard of before (strip and the ones related to the time table and other information in the shelter). I doubt this information can be found in the Belgian (part of the) wiki. This does not always follows the evolution of the other communities. regards m On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 6:42 AM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2014-08-20 07:40, Marc Gemis wrote : https://twitter.com/JLZIMMERMANN/status/501356038499868672/photo/1 The answers to those questions about our conventions should be found here, Marc WikiProject Belgium/Conventions/Bus and tram lines (tagging) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Bus_and_tram_lines#Tagging so that anybody can tag without asking the same questions and getting the same or different answers over and over again. I had to made modifications to those few lines for readability. But there was no answer when I tried to raise a discussion about missing, essential infos. Mainly, how must a route extension (optional detour) be represented (unclear (at least) two separate type https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:type=route https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:type%3Droute relations)? Must the detour (e.g. a small loop that some but not all buses follow) be represented standing alone (A - B - D - E and B - C - D) or must the whole route be repeated with and without the extension (A - B - D - E and A - B - C - D - E) The problem is that let us say 3 extensions potentially make 8 whole routes. Also, if the extension is at the end of the line (A - B - D - E [- F]), is it OK to represent the route only once (A - B - C - D - E - F)? André.
Re: [OSM-talk-be] hoe map ik een bus halte ? :-) / how to map a bus stop ? :-)
What would strip=yes stand for? I think it might be interesting to indicate whether there is a bay where the bus can get out of the way of other traffic. Now I indicate that by drawing public_transport=platform/highway=platform around it, where applicable. Or it can be inferred from a separately drawn cycleway. Another thing which might be interesting, is to indicate what was used for the positioning of the node. - Actual survey of the position of the pole - The B of the word B U S from aerial imagery (in France they have /\/\/\/\ instead) - A corner of the separately drawn (from imagery) amenity=shelter/shelter:type=public_transport For the bench, I'd simply add a node with amenity=bench nowadays. For the waste_basket too. Jo 2014-08-20 7:40 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: https://twitter.com/JLZIMMERMANN/status/501356038499868672/photo/1 regards m ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] hoe map ik een bus halte ? :-) / how to map a bus stop ? :-)
I also have no idea what the strip tag means. I also add a bench=no to the few shelters I see where there is no bench. regards m On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:59 AM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: What would strip=yes stand for? I think it might be interesting to indicate whether there is a bay where the bus can get out of the way of other traffic. Now I indicate that by drawing public_transport=platform/highway=platform around it, where applicable. Or it can be inferred from a separately drawn cycleway. Another thing which might be interesting, is to indicate what was used for the positioning of the node. - Actual survey of the position of the pole - The B of the word B U S from aerial imagery (in France they have /\/\/\/\ instead) - A corner of the separately drawn (from imagery) amenity=shelter/shelter:type=public_transport For the bench, I'd simply add a node with amenity=bench nowadays. For the waste_basket too. Jo 2014-08-20 7:40 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: https://twitter.com/JLZIMMERMANN/status/501356038499868672/photo/1 regards m ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] hoe map ik een bus halte ? :-) / how to map a bus stop ? :-)
On 2014-08-20 07:40, Marc Gemis wrote : https://twitter.com/JLZIMMERMANN/status/501356038499868672/photo/1 The answers to those questions about our conventions should be found here, Marc WikiProject Belgium/Conventions/Bus and tram lines (tagging) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Bus_and_tram_lines#Tagging so that anybody can tag without asking the same questions and getting the same or different answers over and over again. I had to made modifications to those few lines for readability. But there was no answer when I tried to raise a discussion about missing, essential infos. Mainly, how must a route extension (optional detour) be represented (unclear (at least) two separate type https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:type=route https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:type%3Droute relations)? Must the detour (e.g. a small loop that some but not all buses follow) be represented standing alone (A - B - D - E and B - C - D) or must the whole route be repeated with and without the extension (A - B - D - E and A - B - C - D - E) The problem is that let us say 3 extensions potentially make 8 whole routes. Also, if the extension is at the end of the line (A - B - D - E [- F]), is it OK to represent the route only once (A - B - C - D - E - F)? André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] hoe map ik een bus halte ? :-) / how to map a bus stop ? :-)
Are you mapping for the renderer or are you mapping to describe the route the bus follows? If you are mapping for the renderer it would seem to suffice to create separate routes for the 'extensions', but sometimes they are not extensions, but completely alternative routes. So the only way that makes sense is to map a route from starting point to end point in such a way that all stops for that variation of the route are served. I had corrected this in the one route you attempted to map. Why didn't you look at the many, many routes I had already mapped in Flanders? Once the stops are mapped (performing actual conflation and checking they are properly positioned, thank you very much), I can provide you with skeleton relations containing all the stops served by each variation for a given route (a given sequence of stops, really). To limit the amount of variations somewhat, the shorter variants of telescopic lines are not in there. Jo 2014-08-21 6:42 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-08-20 07:40, Marc Gemis wrote : https://twitter.com/JLZIMMERMANN/status/501356038499868672/photo/1 The answers to those questions about our conventions should be found here, Marc WikiProject Belgium/Conventions/Bus and tram lines (tagging) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Bus_and_tram_lines#Tagging so that anybody can tag without asking the same questions and getting the same or different answers over and over again. I had to made modifications to those few lines for readability. But there was no answer when I tried to raise a discussion about missing, essential infos. Mainly, how must a route extension (optional detour) be represented (unclear (at least) two separate type https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:type=route https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:type%3Droute relations)? Must the detour (e.g. a small loop that some but not all buses follow) be represented standing alone (A - B - D - E and B - C - D) or must the whole route be repeated with and without the extension (A - B - D - E and A - B - C - D - E) The problem is that let us say 3 extensions potentially make 8 whole routes. Also, if the extension is at the end of the line (A - B - D - E [- F]), is it OK to represent the route only once (A - B - C - D - E - F)? André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] hoe map ik een bus halte ? :-) / how to map a bus stop ? :-)
Just to make it clear: the picture is not about tagging bus lines, it's about tagging bus stops. You refer to a page on the routes. Furthermore. it was not a question, I just found it a nice summary for what's in the wiki (probably somewhere under the public transport pages). Hence the smiley in the subject :-) There were a couple of tags that I had not heard of before (strip and the ones related to the time table and other information in the shelter). I doubt this information can be found in the Belgian (part of the) wiki. This does not always follows the evolution of the other communities. regards m On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 6:42 AM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2014-08-20 07:40, Marc Gemis wrote : https://twitter.com/JLZIMMERMANN/status/501356038499868672/photo/1 The answers to those questions about our conventions should be found here, Marc WikiProject Belgium/Conventions/Bus and tram lines (tagging) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Bus_and_tram_lines#Tagging so that anybody can tag without asking the same questions and getting the same or different answers over and over again. I had to made modifications to those few lines for readability. But there was no answer when I tried to raise a discussion about missing, essential infos. Mainly, how must a route extension (optional detour) be represented (unclear (at least) two separate type https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:type=route https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:type%3Droute relations)? Must the detour (e.g. a small loop that some but not all buses follow) be represented standing alone (A - B - D - E and B - C - D) or must the whole route be repeated with and without the extension (A - B - D - E and A - B - C - D - E) The problem is that let us say 3 extensions potentially make 8 whole routes. Also, if the extension is at the end of the line (A - B - D - E [- F]), is it OK to represent the route only once (A - B - C - D - E - F)? André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
