Re: [Talk-ca] French Street names in Ottawa

[Charles Basenga Kiyanda]

Juste. La commission de toponymie indique aussi que l'inscription

Rue Laurier Street

serait incorrected, mais la justification est un article de la charte
Québécoise de la langue française qui ne s'applique évidemment pas en
Ontario.

Ceci dit, une note intéressante est dans le document de la commission de
toponymie:

"On ne doit en aucun cas conclure que l’affichage autorisé d’une forme
odonymique autre que le nom officiel accorde implicitement un statut
officiel ou officieux à cette autre forme"

Des fois, les municipalités font des erreurs d'affichage. J'imagine que
l'Ontario a une règle semblable. Ceci dit, peut-être qu'il faudrait
demander au Ontario Geographic Names Board. Ça semble être l'organisme
qui ressemble le plus à la Commission de Toponymie au Québec.

https://dr6j45jk9xcmk.cloudfront.net/documents/4011/gnb-frenchnames-stel02-207467.pdf

Cheers,

Charles

On 09/26/2016 10:16 PM, Gordon Dewis wrote:
> And according to the document, the mandate of la Commission de
> toponymie the guide in question only has a mandate for the province of
> Quebec ("
> La Commission de toponymie, quant à elle, a pour mandat d’effectuer
> l’inventaire des noms de lieux */sur l’ensemble du territoire
> québécois/*, de les normaliser, de les of cialiser et de les
> diffuser.”. (emphases added)
>
> The standard for the City of Ottawa appears to be different.
>
>   —G
>
>> On Sep 26, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Loïc Haméon > > wrote:
>>
>> Bonne trouvaille Pierre! 
>>
>>
>> For our English-speaking colleagues who might find it wearisome to
>> work through the French language info, I will cite the specific
>> street-names guide
>> (http://www.toponymie.gouv.qc.ca/ct/pdf/guideaffichageodonymique.pdf?ts=0.9319020490929337):
>> "Sur une plaque de rue ou un panneau de signalisation, l'élément
>> générique débute par la particule de position". 
>>
>> Loïc
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] French Street names in Ottawa

[Gordon Dewis]

And according to the document, the mandate of la Commission de toponymie the 
guide in question only has a mandate for the province of Quebec ("
La Commission de toponymie, quant à elle, a pour mandat d’effectuer 
l’inventaire des noms de lieux sur l’ensemble du territoire québécois, de les 
normaliser, de les of cialiser et de les diffuser.”. (emphases added)

The standard for the City of Ottawa appears to be different.

  —G

> On Sep 26, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Loïc Haméon  wrote:
> 
> Bonne trouvaille Pierre! 
> 
> 
> For our English-speaking colleagues who might find it wearisome to work 
> through the French language info, I will cite the specific street-names guide 
> (http://www.toponymie.gouv.qc.ca/ct/pdf/guideaffichageodonymique.pdf?ts=0.9319020490929337
>  
> ):
>  "Sur une plaque de rue ou un panneau de signalisation, l'élément générique 
> débute par la particule de position". 
> 
> Loïc
> 
> 

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Re: [Talk-ca] French Street names in Ottawa

[Loïc Haméon]

Bonne trouvaille Pierre!


For our English-speaking colleagues who might find it wearisome to work
through the French language info, I will cite the specific street-names
guide (
http://www.toponymie.gouv.qc.ca/ct/pdf/guideaffichageodonymique.pdf?ts=0.9319020490929337):
"Sur une plaque de rue ou un panneau de signalisation, l'élément générique
débute par la particule de position".

Loïc




On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 2:02 PM,  wrote:

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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re: French street names in Ottawa (Jonathan Crowe)
>2. Re: French street names in Ottawa (john whelan)
>3. Re: French street names in Ottawa (Pierre Béland)
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Jonathan Crowe 
> To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap 
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 12:30:51 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa
> I just did a quick check. On OSM, Rue/Chemin/Boulevard/etc. are
> capitalized in Montréal, Québec, Paris, Marseille, Besançon, Lille — and
> Gatineau. Ottawa is the *only* place I’m aware of where capitalizing Rue
> etc. is even a question.
>
> I mean, Quebec highway exit signs capitalize Rue, Boulevard, Chemin and so
> forth. Drive any autoroute.
>
> Which is to say that to me the evidence of existing usage elsewhere in the
> francophone world is pretty overwhelming. (For the record, I have been
> capitalizing Rue etc. in my edits.)
>
> This is the second time this month that anglophones (generally) have been
> discussing how to deal with names in other languages (see also the Nunavut
> place names thread). I think we need to be *very* careful about that:
> there’s an excellent chance that we don’t know what we’re talking about.
>
> Also, I have a hard time believing that search is so case-sensitive that
> capitalizing/not capitalizing Rue etc. would break it. (It’s broken in
> other ways: searching “boulevard cite des jeunes” does not yield Gatineau’s
> Boulevard de la Cité-des-Jeunes. But that’s another issue.)
>
>
> Jonathan Crowe
> The Map Room
> http://www.maproomblog.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:51 AM, john whelan  wrote:
> >
> > I was under the impression that the City of Ottawa named the streets,
> they use lower case for rue.   I assumed since they named the streets they
> were the authority.
> >
> > The entries were confirmed with a Francophone School teacher before
> being added.
> >
> > Originally about 97% of the highways in Ottawa had the French name added
> following the Ottawa by-law.  These were all done in lower case.  There
> were one or two street names that had odd names that were not covered by
> the by-law and these did not have the French added.
> >
> > Now we have a mixture as people have changed the entry to upper case in
> roughly 20% of the cases which is unfortunate as it impacts searching the
> French street name entry by name.  We also have had a number of highways
> added as Ottawa has grown which may or may not have had the French name
> added.
> >
> > Reality is most users use the English version of the street name and
> most rendering is done in English.  This is similar to many francophones in
> Ottawa prefer to use English versions of software as they feel they are
> less likely to have undocumented features.
> >
> > I only know of two renderers that use the French name and they are a
> custom set of rules I made for Maperitive and also they can be shown in
> OSMand with the right settings.
> >
> > Cheerio John
> >
> >
> >
> > On 26 September 2016 at 10:55, Loïc Haméon  wrote:
> > Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and
> not "Rue Sparks"
> > The first word is not capitalised.
> > This was carefully verified before the names were added.
> > Thanks John
> >
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > It's true that in French the generic element of place names (rue,
> avenue, chemin, etc.) are normally not capitalized as part of a text or
> address (http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra;
> srchtxt=rue=9=14=3=3.3.8#zz3).
> >
> > However, in maps, where the street name is usually shown independent of
> anything else and this generic name is the first element of the "sentence",
> it is usual for it to be capitalized. This is how they are entered in OSM
> in Quebec (http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/
> -71.28523=D) and also in other French maps, whether in Quebec (
> 

Re: [Talk-ca] Nunavut place names language

[James]

Maybe this video will also help solve what Inuktitut is used for in the
arctic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW4hI_METac

On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Laura O'Grady  wrote:

> Just spotted this map of Nunavut on Twitter:
>
> https://mobile.twitter.com/CanadianGIS/status/780181115407626240/photo/1
>
> It was created by the Inuit Heritage Trust in 2015 and may provide some
> insight into this issue.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Laura
>
>
> > --
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 14:15:02 -0400
> > From: "Stewart C. Russell" 
> > To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Nunavut place names language
> > Message-ID: <321f3e73-d212-b162-b7c9-c9ab5edb1...@gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> >> I would like to purpose OSM uses the same standard as this Wikipedia
> >> Article.
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_communities_in_Nunavut
> >
> > Seems reasonable.
> >
> >> I really believe that *name=** should be written in english (Community).
> >
> > It's certainly more consistent than using "English  Inuktitut",
> > since it's unlikely that people will call it two things at once.
> >
> > Please add name:en as well for the English names. That way, automatic
> > parsing will show a little less cultural bias.
> >
> >> Inuktitut name if different from the name = *alt_name*
> >
> > alt_name looks to me like it's for a name that's different in the same
> > language. This would be the case for Kugaaruk, which is also (according
> > to the Wikipedia article) known as Arviligjuaq.
> >
> >> Inuktitut syllabics = *name:in (ᐃᖅᐊᓗᑦ)*
> >
> > name:iu, surely?
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> > Stewart
> >
> >
>
>
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[Talk-ca] Fwd: French street names in Ottawa

[john whelan]

​On 26 September 2016 at 15:02, Gordon Dewis  wrote:
I think John's point is that the official name for "Sparks Street" is "rue
Sparks", not "Rue Sparks". If I were to go and confirm street names by
conducting an in-the-field survey, I would find that the sign says "rue
Sparks Street", not "Rue Sparks Street". Whether this follows the rules of
French according to l'Académie française, or some other body, is a
different conversation. If I ask the City of Ottawa, they will tell me "rue
Sparks", and that's what should appear in OSM.

--G
​


Strangely enough that doesn't work either.  There was a suggest that the
street name be "rue Sparks Street" which is fine on a printed map but hell
when you come to do an electronic search you need to enter "rue Sparks
etc.  You don't need the full name but Sparks by itself doesn't work which
is why I looked for other solutions.  The new street signs are of the form
"rue Sparks Street" but older ones with just the street name "Prestone" or
English only "Prestone Drive" are still around.

It other parts of the world name name:second language eg name:fr etc is
used and its documented in the OSM wiki.

By using it I can produce maps in either English or French.  I think Ottawa
is the only city in Canada that has a by-law that specifies street names
should be available in both official languages and it specifies the
translation.  In Gatineau, Montreal etc the problem doesn't arise.

Whilst I agree computers ought to understand what I think for the moment we
are stuck with search algorithms that look for an exact match.  In Ottawa
some imported CANVEC street names that were two words followed by street
etc unfortunately had two spaces in between the two part name.  These have
been caught and corrected but they were a problem for electronic
searching.  I've actually seen an American tourist pull out a laptop and
use JOSM to search an off line map to search for a street in Ottawa so its
not just Nomination that you have to be concerned about there are many
programs that are used to search OSM data.

My background is writing specifications for word processing emails etc in
Federal government and I am very aware that many francophones have
different opinions about the language.  So generally I research an
authority and go with that.  In my opinion the authority for Ottawa street
names is the Ottawa by-law.

If we get a mixture or inconsistency then that is worst than either case.
Computers do not handle inconsistency well.

To make it more usable it should be one way or the other and its not
something I use so in many ways I'm not too bothered which but having added
them to 97% of highways in Ottawa in a consistent manner that adhered to
the Ottawa by-law so they were searchable its a little disappointing that
they have been modified.  Reality is as I say I doubt it is used by anyone,
it was purely put in to meet bilingual requirements and demonstrate what
could be done.

On a practical note I think it is 99% of francophones in Ottawa felt
comfortable using English although service is offered in both official
languages.

Cheerio John
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Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa

[john whelan]

Strangely enough that doesn't work either.  There was a suggest that the
street name be "rue Sparks Street" which is fine on a printed map but hell
when you come to do an electronic search you need to enter "rue Sparks
etc.  You don't need the full name but Sparks by itself doesn't work which
is why I looked for other solutions.  The new street signs are of the form
"rue Sparks Street" but older ones with just the street name "Prestone" or
English only "Prestone Drive" are still around.

It other parts of the world name name:second language eg name:fr etc is
used and its documented in the OSM wiki.

By using it I can produce maps in either English or French.  I think Ottawa
is the only city in Canada that has a by-law that specifies street names
should be available in both official languages and it specifies the
translation.  In Gatineau, Montreal etc the problem doesn't arise.

Whilst I agree computers ought to understand what I think for the moment we
are stuck with search algorithms that look for an exact match.  In Ottawa
some imported CANVEC street names that were two words followed by street
etc unfortunately had two spaces in between the two part name.  These have
been caught and corrected but they were a problem for electronic
searching.  I've actually seen an American tourist pull out a laptop and
use JOSM to search an off line map to search for a street in Ottawa so its
not just Nomination that you have to be concerned about there are many
programs that are used to search OSM data.

My background is writing specifications for word processing emails etc in
Federal government and I am very aware that many francophones have
different opinions about the language.  So generally I research an
authority and go with that.  In my opinion the authority for Ottawa street
names is the Ottawa by-law.

If we get a mixture or inconsistency then that is worst than either case.
Computers do not handle inconsistency well.

To make it more usable it should be one way or the other and its not
something I use so in many ways I'm not too bothered which but having added
them to 97% of highways in Ottawa in a consistent manner that adhered to
the Ottawa by-law so they were searchable its a little disappointing that
they have been modified.  Reality is as I say I doubt it is used by anyone,
it was purely put in to meet bilingual requirements and demonstrate what
could be done.

On a practical note I think it is 99% of francophones in Ottawa felt
comfortable using English although service is offered in both official
languages.

Cheerio John

On 26 September 2016 at 15:02, Gordon Dewis  wrote:

> I think John's point is that the official name for "Sparks Street" is "rue
> Sparks", not "Rue Sparks". If I were to go and confirm street names by
> conducting an in-the-field survey, I would find that the sign says "rue
> Sparks Street", not "Rue Sparks Street". Whether this follows the rules of
> French according to l'Académie française, or some other body, is a
> different conversation. If I ask the City of Ottawa, they will tell me "rue
> Sparks", and that's what should appear in OSM.
>
> --G
>
> On Sep 26, 2016, 14:31 -0400, Pierre Choffet , wrote:
>
> Le 26/09/2016 à 13:02, john whelan a écrit :
>
>
> I suggest you take it up with the City of Ottawa since they have the
> responsibility for naming the streets.
>
> John, nous avons bien noté que ton premier message n'était pas une «
> demande de commentaires », mais une injonction à respecter une décision
> prise par la communauté locale d'Ottawa, laquelle impose *de fait* sa
> manière de cartographier sur son territoire. Il n'est néanmoins pas
> anormal de lancer une discussion en postant sur une liste de diffusion,
> et de recueillir des avis différents, a fortiori lorsqu'ils sont
> accompagnés de justifications.
> La légitimité de la communauté locale n'est pas remise en question,
> c'est pourquoi j'invite tout le monde à respecter cette volonté pour la
> Ville d'Ottawa, fusse-t-elle pour le moins étonnante pour les francophones.
>
> French in Canada is quite different to other countries. For example
> accents are not normally used in upper case in France but in Canada
> there are differences of opinion and it seems to relate to the opinion
> of your teacher.
>
> Je ne peux par contre pas te laisser dire une telle aberration.
> L'Académie française¹ et l'usage sur OSM² sont parfaitement clairs à ce
> sujet. L'accent sur les lettres diacritiques sur les majuscules est
> obligatoire en France, recommandé au Canada³, quoiqu'en pensent tes
> professeurs.
>
> There is very little consensus on what characters are used in the
> French language. One accented character only occurs in a single
> French place name. Fun when you need to define the character set.
> 863 is Canadian French character set by the way that is not used in
> other countries.
>
> DOS n'est plus largement utilisé depuis plusieurs décennies, y compris
> dans les régions 

Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa

[Gordon Dewis]

I think John's point is that the official name for "Sparks Street" is "rue 
Sparks", not "Rue Sparks". If I were to go and confirm street names by 
conducting an in-the-field survey, I would find that the sign says "rue Sparks 
Street", not "Rue Sparks Street". Whether this follows the rules of French 
according to l'Académie française, or some other body, is a different 
conversation. If I ask the City of Ottawa, they will tell me "rue Sparks", and 
that's what should appear in OSM.

--G

On Sep 26, 2016, 14:31 -0400, Pierre Choffet , wrote:
> Le 26/09/2016 (tel:26/09/2016) à 13:02, john whelan a écrit :
> >
> > I suggest you take it up with the City of Ottawa since they have the
> > responsibility for naming the streets.
> >
> John, nous avons bien noté que ton premier message n'était pas une «
> demande de commentaires », mais une injonction à respecter une décision
> prise par la communauté locale d'Ottawa, laquelle impose *de fait* sa
> manière de cartographier sur son territoire. Il n'est néanmoins pas
> anormal de lancer une discussion en postant sur une liste de diffusion,
> et de recueillir des avis différents, a fortiori lorsqu'ils sont
> accompagnés de justifications.
> La légitimité de la communauté locale n'est pas remise en question,
> c'est pourquoi j'invite tout le monde à respecter cette volonté pour la
> Ville d'Ottawa, fusse-t-elle pour le moins étonnante pour les francophones.
>
> > French in Canada is quite different to other countries. For example
> > accents are not normally used in upper case in France but in Canada
> > there are differences of opinion and it seems to relate to the opinion
> > of your teacher.
> Je ne peux par contre pas te laisser dire une telle aberration.
> L'Académie française¹ et l'usage sur OSM² sont parfaitement clairs à ce
> sujet. L'accent sur les lettres diacritiques sur les majuscules est
> obligatoire en France, recommandé au Canada³, quoiqu'en pensent tes
> professeurs.
>
> > There is very little consensus on what characters are used in the
> > French language. One accented character only occurs in a single
> > French place name. Fun when you need to define the character set.
> > 863 is Canadian French character set by the way that is not used in
> > other countries.
> >
> DOS n'est plus largement utilisé depuis plusieurs décennies, y compris
> dans les régions francophones du monde. Nous utilisons aussi la norme
> Unicode⁴ laquelle permet de représenter tous les signes utilisés à
> travers le monde.
>
> > This is the second time this month that anglophones (generally) have
> > been discussing how to deal with names in other languages (see also
> > the Nunavut place names thread). I think we need to be *very* careful
> > about that: there’s an excellent chance that we don’t know what we’re
> > talking about.
> J'appuie totalement cette remarque. Le choix de mettre plusieurs langues
> séparées par un espace au sein d'un unique champ n'a aucun sens et va
> même à l'encontre des travaux en cours sur le sujet⁵. Je ne suis pas
> intervenu à l'époque de ce choix, je ne m'étendrai donc pas davantage
> sur le sujet maintenant, mais ça m'amène au point suivant, puisque des
> arguments.
>
> > I only know of two renderers that use the French name and they are a
> > custom set of rules I made for Maperitive and also they can be shown
> > in OSMand with the right settings.
> > Now we have a mixture as people have changed the entry to upper case in 
> > roughly 20% of the cases which is unfortunate as it impacts searching the 
> > French street name entry by name.
>
> Je t'invite à relire les règles de base de la contribution à OSM, et en
> particulier celle-ci⁶. Nous cartographions les données telles qu'elles
> doivent l'être, et certainement pas pour combler les limitations de tel
> ou tel logiciel déficient dans sa manière de réutiliser les données d'OSM.
>
> 1 :
> http://www.academie-francaise.fr/questions-de-langue#5_strong-em-accentuation-des-majuscules-em-strong
> 2 : https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/117905
> 3 : http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?id=1438
> 4 : http://unicode.org/
> 5 : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Multivalued_Keys
> 6 : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer
>
> Pierre
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa

[Pierre Choffet]

Le 26/09/2016 à 13:02, john whelan a écrit :
>
> I suggest you take it up with the City of Ottawa since they have the
> responsibility for naming the streets.
>
John, nous avons bien noté que ton premier message n'était pas une «
demande de commentaires », mais une injonction à respecter une décision
prise par la communauté locale d'Ottawa, laquelle impose *de fait* sa
manière de cartographier sur son territoire. Il n'est néanmoins pas
anormal de lancer une discussion en postant sur une liste de diffusion,
et de recueillir des avis différents, a fortiori lorsqu'ils sont
accompagnés de justifications.
La légitimité de la communauté locale n'est pas remise en question,
c'est pourquoi j'invite tout le monde à respecter cette volonté pour la
Ville d'Ottawa, fusse-t-elle pour le moins étonnante pour les francophones.

> French in Canada is quite different to other countries.  For example
> accents are not normally used in upper case in France but in Canada
> there are differences of opinion and it seems to relate to the opinion
> of your teacher. 
Je ne peux par contre pas te laisser dire une telle aberration.
L'Académie française¹ et l'usage sur OSM² sont parfaitement clairs à ce
sujet. L'accent sur les lettres diacritiques sur les majuscules est
obligatoire en France, recommandé au Canada³, quoiqu'en pensent tes
professeurs.

> There is very little consensus on what characters are used in the
> French language.  One accented character only occurs in a single
> French place name.  Fun when you need to define the character set. 
> 863 is Canadian French character set by the way that is not used in
> other countries.
>
DOS n'est plus largement utilisé depuis plusieurs décennies, y compris
dans les régions francophones du monde. Nous utilisons aussi la norme
Unicode⁴ laquelle permet de représenter tous les signes utilisés à
travers le monde.

> This is the second time this month that anglophones (generally) have
> been discussing how to deal with names in other languages (see also
> the Nunavut place names thread). I think we need to be *very* careful
> about that: there’s an excellent chance that we don’t know what we’re
> talking about.
J'appuie totalement cette remarque. Le choix de mettre plusieurs langues
séparées par un espace au sein d'un unique champ n'a aucun sens et va
même à l'encontre des travaux en cours sur le sujet⁵. Je ne suis pas
intervenu à l'époque de ce choix, je ne m'étendrai donc pas davantage
sur le sujet maintenant, mais ça m'amène au point suivant, puisque des
arguments.

> I only know of two renderers that use the French name and they are a
> custom set of rules I made for Maperitive and also they can be shown
> in OSMand with the right settings.
> Now we have a mixture as people have changed the entry to upper case in 
> roughly 20% of the cases which is unfortunate as it impacts searching the 
> French street name entry by name.

Je t'invite à relire les règles de base de la contribution à OSM, et en
particulier celle-ci⁶. Nous cartographions les données telles qu'elles
doivent l'être, et certainement pas pour combler les limitations de tel
ou tel logiciel déficient dans sa manière de réutiliser les données d'OSM.

1 :
http://www.academie-francaise.fr/questions-de-langue#5_strong-em-accentuation-des-majuscules-em-strong
2 : https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/117905
3 : http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?id=1438
4 : http://unicode.org/
5 : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Multivalued_Keys
6 : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer

Pierre




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Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa

[Pierre Béland]

Au Québec, la Commission de toponymie publie les règles d'écriture des noms. Et 
oui avec première lettre en capitales.
voir http://www.toponymie.gouv.qc.ca/ct/normes-procedures/regles-ecriture/


  
Pierre 


  De : john whelan 
 À : Jonathan Crowe  
Cc : Talk-CA OpenStreetMap 
 Envoyé le : lundi 26 Septembre 2016 13h02
 Objet : Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa
   
I suggest you take it up with the City of Ottawa since they have the 
responsibility for naming the streets. French in Canada is quite different to 
other countries.  For example accents are not normally used in upper case in 
France but in Canada there are differences of opinion and it seems to relate to 
the opinion of your teacher.There is very little consensus on what characters 
are used in the French language.  One accented character only occurs in a 
single French place name.  Fun when you need to define the character set.  863 
is Canadian French character set by the way that is not used in other 
countries.Cheerio John 
On 26 Sep 2016 12:32 pm, "Jonathan Crowe"  wrote:

I just did a quick check. On OSM, Rue/Chemin/Boulevard/etc. are capitalized in 
Montréal, Québec, Paris, Marseille, Besançon, Lille — and Gatineau. Ottawa is 
the *only* place I’m aware of where capitalizing Rue etc. is even a question.

I mean, Quebec highway exit signs capitalize Rue, Boulevard, Chemin and so 
forth. Drive any autoroute.

Which is to say that to me the evidence of existing usage elsewhere in the 
francophone world is pretty overwhelming. (For the record, I have been 
capitalizing Rue etc. in my edits.)

This is the second time this month that anglophones (generally) have been 
discussing how to deal with names in other languages (see also the Nunavut 
place names thread). I think we need to be *very* careful about that: there’s 
an excellent chance that we don’t know what we’re talking about.

Also, I have a hard time believing that search is so case-sensitive that 
capitalizing/not capitalizing Rue etc. would break it. (It’s broken in other 
ways: searching “boulevard cite des jeunes” does not yield Gatineau’s Boulevard 
de la Cité-des-Jeunes. But that’s another issue.)


Jonathan Crowe
The Map Room
http://www.maproomblog.com



> On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:51 AM, john whelan  wrote:
>
> I was under the impression that the City of Ottawa named the streets, they 
> use lower case for rue.   I assumed since they named the streets they were 
> the authority.
>
> The entries were confirmed with a Francophone School teacher before being 
> added.
>
> Originally about 97% of the highways in Ottawa had the French name added 
> following the Ottawa by-law.  These were all done in lower case.  There were 
> one or two street names that had odd names that were not covered by the 
> by-law and these did not have the French added.
>
> Now we have a mixture as people have changed the entry to upper case in 
> roughly 20% of the cases which is unfortunate as it impacts searching the 
> French street name entry by name.  We also have had a number of highways 
> added as Ottawa has grown which may or may not have had the French name added.
>
> Reality is most users use the English version of the street name and most 
> rendering is done in English.  This is similar to many francophones in Ottawa 
> prefer to use English versions of software as they feel they are less likely 
> to have undocumented features.
>
> I only know of two renderers that use the French name and they are a custom 
> set of rules I made for Maperitive and also they can be shown in OSMand with 
> the right settings.
>
> Cheerio John
>
>
>
> On 26 September 2016 at 10:55, Loïc Haméon  wrote:
> Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and not 
> "Rue Sparks"
> The first word is not capitalised.
> This was carefully verified before the names were added.
> Thanks John
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> It's true that in French the generic element of place names (rue, avenue, 
> chemin, etc.) are normally not capitalized as part of a text or address 
> (http://www.btb.termiumplus. gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra& 
> srchtxt=rue=9=14& lettr=3=3.3.8#zz3).
>
> However, in maps, where the street name is usually shown independent of 
> anything else and this generic name is the first element of the "sentence", 
> it is usual for it to be capitalized. This is how they are entered in OSM in 
> Quebec (http://www.openstreetmap.org/ way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/ 
> -71.28523=D) and also in other French maps, whether in Quebec 
> (http://carte.ville.quebec.qc. ca/carteinteractive/) or France 
> (https://www.viamichelin.fr/ web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan- 
> Nantes-44000-Loire_Atlantique- France?strLocid= 
> 31NDJqejUxMGNORGN1TWpFM09EUT1j TFRFdU5UVTNNVFE9).
>
> As the "rue" part is not considered a proper name, it is subject to 
> typographical change 

Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa

[Jonathan Crowe]

I just did a quick check. On OSM, Rue/Chemin/Boulevard/etc. are capitalized in 
Montréal, Québec, Paris, Marseille, Besançon, Lille — and Gatineau. Ottawa is 
the *only* place I’m aware of where capitalizing Rue etc. is even a question.

I mean, Quebec highway exit signs capitalize Rue, Boulevard, Chemin and so 
forth. Drive any autoroute.

Which is to say that to me the evidence of existing usage elsewhere in the 
francophone world is pretty overwhelming. (For the record, I have been 
capitalizing Rue etc. in my edits.)

This is the second time this month that anglophones (generally) have been 
discussing how to deal with names in other languages (see also the Nunavut 
place names thread). I think we need to be *very* careful about that: there’s 
an excellent chance that we don’t know what we’re talking about.

Also, I have a hard time believing that search is so case-sensitive that 
capitalizing/not capitalizing Rue etc. would break it. (It’s broken in other 
ways: searching “boulevard cite des jeunes” does not yield Gatineau’s Boulevard 
de la Cité-des-Jeunes. But that’s another issue.)


Jonathan Crowe
The Map Room
http://www.maproomblog.com



> On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:51 AM, john whelan  wrote:
> 
> I was under the impression that the City of Ottawa named the streets, they 
> use lower case for rue.   I assumed since they named the streets they were 
> the authority. 
> 
> The entries were confirmed with a Francophone School teacher before being 
> added.
> 
> Originally about 97% of the highways in Ottawa had the French name added 
> following the Ottawa by-law.  These were all done in lower case.  There were 
> one or two street names that had odd names that were not covered by the 
> by-law and these did not have the French added.  
> 
> Now we have a mixture as people have changed the entry to upper case in 
> roughly 20% of the cases which is unfortunate as it impacts searching the 
> French street name entry by name.  We also have had a number of highways 
> added as Ottawa has grown which may or may not have had the French name added.
> 
> Reality is most users use the English version of the street name and most 
> rendering is done in English.  This is similar to many francophones in Ottawa 
> prefer to use English versions of software as they feel they are less likely 
> to have undocumented features.
> 
> I only know of two renderers that use the French name and they are a custom 
> set of rules I made for Maperitive and also they can be shown in OSMand with 
> the right settings.
> 
> Cheerio John
> 
> 
> 
> On 26 September 2016 at 10:55, Loïc Haméon  wrote:
> Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and not 
> "Rue Sparks"
> The first word is not capitalised.
> This was carefully verified before the names were added.
> Thanks John
> 
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> It's true that in French the generic element of place names (rue, avenue, 
> chemin, etc.) are normally not capitalized as part of a text or address 
> (http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra=rue=9=14=3=3.3.8#zz3).
> 
> However, in maps, where the street name is usually shown independent of 
> anything else and this generic name is the first element of the "sentence", 
> it is usual for it to be capitalized. This is how they are entered in OSM in 
> Quebec 
> (http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/-71.28523=D)
>  and also in other French maps, whether in Quebec 
> (http://carte.ville.quebec.qc.ca/carteinteractive/) or France 
> (https://www.viamichelin.fr/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-Nantes-44000-Loire_Atlantique-France?strLocid=31NDJqejUxMGNORGN1TWpFM09EUT1jTFRFdU5UVTNNVFE9).
> 
> As the "rue" part is not considered a proper name, it is subject to 
> typographical change depending on the context of its use. Regardless of how 
> it appears on Ottawa street signs, given there is an overwhelming norm for 
> capitalization in maps, I would recommend you do the same in Ottawa. 
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Loïc


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Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa addr:street:fr

[john whelan]

If I load the city up into JOSM it reports 1,306 entries for addr:street:fr.

It's not a particularly important entry and its rarely used but politically
its important as it is something that only OpenStreetMap and one other
mapping system have the data for and can handle rendering in either English
or French.

Cheerio John

On 26 September 2016 at 12:03, Stewart C. Russell  wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> > Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and
> > not "Rue Sparks"
>
> I'm only finding a couple of addr:street:fr in Ottawa with Overpass, and
> both have the offending capitalisation. Both were modified recently by
> LogicalViolinist in changesets 42331565 and 42331600. Are there more out
> there that Overpass isn't catching?
>
> Personally, I'd be more peeved about the changesets (such as 38745647)
> that quietly reimported some of the redacted incompatible Ottawa data
> after Paul Norman removed it. It's moot now that the city has fixed its
> licence, thankfully.
>
>  Stewart
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa addr:street:fr

[James]

License changed, it's compatible with ODBL check again. Kthanks

On Sep 26, 2016 12:04 PM, "Stewart C. Russell"  wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> > Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and
> > not "Rue Sparks"
>
> I'm only finding a couple of addr:street:fr in Ottawa with Overpass, and
> both have the offending capitalisation. Both were modified recently by
> LogicalViolinist in changesets 42331565 and 42331600. Are there more out
> there that Overpass isn't catching?
>
> Personally, I'd be more peeved about the changesets (such as 38745647)
> that quietly reimported some of the redacted incompatible Ottawa data
> after Paul Norman removed it. It's moot now that the city has fixed its
> licence, thankfully.
>
>  Stewart
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa addr:street:fr

[Stewart C. Russell]

Hi John,

> Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and
> not "Rue Sparks"

I'm only finding a couple of addr:street:fr in Ottawa with Overpass, and
both have the offending capitalisation. Both were modified recently by
LogicalViolinist in changesets 42331565 and 42331600. Are there more out
there that Overpass isn't catching?

Personally, I'd be more peeved about the changesets (such as 38745647)
that quietly reimported some of the redacted incompatible Ottawa data
after Paul Norman removed it. It's moot now that the city has fixed its
licence, thankfully.

 Stewart



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Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa

[john whelan]

I was under the impression that the City of Ottawa named the streets, they
use lower case for rue.   I assumed since they named the streets they were
the authority.

The entries were confirmed with a Francophone School teacher before being
added.

Originally about 97% of the highways in Ottawa had the French name added
following the Ottawa by-law.  These were all done in lower case.  There
were one or two street names that had odd names that were not covered by
the by-law and these did not have the French added.

Now we have a mixture as people have changed the entry to upper case in
roughly 20% of the cases which is unfortunate as it impacts searching the
French street name entry by name.  We also have had a number of highways
added as Ottawa has grown which may or may not have had the French name
added.

Reality is most users use the English version of the street name and most
rendering is done in English.  This is similar to many francophones in
Ottawa prefer to use English versions of software as they feel they are
less likely to have undocumented features.

I only know of two renderers that use the French name and they are a custom
set of rules I made for Maperitive and also they can be shown in OSMand
with the right settings.

Cheerio John



On 26 September 2016 at 10:55, Loïc Haméon  wrote:

> Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and not
>> "Rue Sparks"
>> The first word is not capitalised.
>> This was carefully verified before the names were added.
>> Thanks John
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> It's true that in French the generic element of place names (rue, avenue,
> chemin, etc.) are normally not capitalized as part of a text or address (
> http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra;
> srchtxt=rue=9=14=3=3.3.8#zz3).
>
> However, in maps, where the street name is usually shown independent of
> anything else and this generic name is the first element of the "sentence",
> it is usual for it to be capitalized. This is how they are entered in OSM
> in Quebec (http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/
> -71.28523=D) and also in other French maps, whether in Quebec (
> http://carte.ville.quebec.qc.ca/carteinteractive/) or France (
> https://www.viamichelin.fr/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-
> Nantes-44000-Loire_Atlantique-France?strLocid=
> 31NDJqejUxMGNORGN1TWpFM09EUT1jTFRFdU5UVTNNVFE9).
>
> As the "rue" part is not considered a proper name, it is subject to
> typographical change depending on the context of its use. Regardless of how
> it appears on Ottawa street signs, given there is an overwhelming norm for
> capitalization in maps, I would recommend you do the same in Ottawa.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Loïc
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 8:00 AM, 
> wrote:
>
>> Send Talk-ca mailing list submissions to
>> talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> talk-ca-requ...@openstreetmap.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> talk-ca-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Talk-ca digest..."
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>1. Re: Nunavut place names language (Laura O'Grady)
>>2. French street names in Ottawa addr:street:fr (john whelan)
>>
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: "Laura O'Grady" 
>> To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> Cc:
>> Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 20:33:31 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Nunavut place names language
>> Just spotted this map of Nunavut on Twitter:
>>
>> https://mobile.twitter.com/CanadianGIS/status/780181115407626240/photo/1
>>
>> It was created by the Inuit Heritage Trust in 2015 and may provide some
>> insight into this issue.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Laura
>>
>>
>> > --
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 14:15:02 -0400
>> > From: "Stewart C. Russell" 
>> > To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Nunavut place names language
>> > Message-ID: <321f3e73-d212-b162-b7c9-c9ab5edb1...@gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>> >
>> > Hi John,
>> >
>> >> I would like to purpose OSM uses the same standard as this Wikipedia
>> >> Article.
>> >>
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_communities_in_Nunavut
>> >
>> > Seems reasonable.
>> >
>> >> I really believe that *name=** should be written in english
>> (Community).
>> >
>> > It's certainly more consistent than using "English  Inuktitut",
>> > since it's unlikely that people will call it two things at once.
>> >
>> > Please add name:en as well for the English names. That way, automatic
>> > parsing will show a little less cultural bias.
>> >
>> >> Inuktitut name if different 

Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa

[Gordon Dewis]

If "rue Sparks" is mentioned in a sentence, it will be preceded by an article, 
such as "La rue Sparks est située dans la ville d'Ottawa". A quick perusal of 
many of the official notices in this morning's leDroit shows that addresses do 
not have the street type capitalized. I've seen maps in Quebec that have used 
both conventions.

Perhaps this is an issue that should be left up to the renderers.

--G

On Sep 26, 2016, 10:57 -0400, Loïc Haméon , wrote:
> > Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and not 
> > "Rue Sparks"
> > The first word is not capitalised.
> > This was carefully verified before the names were added.
> > Thanks John
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> It's true that in French the generic element of place names (rue, avenue, 
> chemin, etc.) are normally not capitalized as part of a text or address 
> (http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra=rue=9=14=3=3.3.8#zz3).
>
> However, in maps, where the street name is usually shown independent of 
> anything else and this generic name is the first element of the "sentence", 
> it is usual for it to be capitalized. This is how they are entered in OSM in 
> Quebec 
> (http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/-71.28523=D)
>  and also in other French maps, whether in Quebec 
> (http://carte.ville.quebec.qc.ca/carteinteractive/) or France 
> (https://www.viamichelin.fr/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-Nantes-44000-Loire_Atlantique-France?strLocid=31NDJqejUxMGNORGN1TWpFM09EUT1jTFRFdU5UVTNNVFE9).
>
> As the "rue" part is not considered a proper name, it is subject to 
> typographical change depending on the context of its use. Regardless of how 
> it appears on Ottawa street signs, given there is an overwhelming norm for 
> capitalization in maps, I would recommend you do the same in Ottawa.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Loïc
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 8:00 AM,  (mailto:talk-ca-requ...@openstreetmap.org)> wrote:
> > Send Talk-ca mailing list submissions to
> > talk-ca@openstreetmap.org (mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org)
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > talk-ca-requ...@openstreetmap.org (mailto:talk-ca-requ...@openstreetmap.org)
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > talk-ca-ow...@openstreetmap.org (mailto:talk-ca-ow...@openstreetmap.org)
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Talk-ca digest..."
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Nunavut place names language (Laura O'Grady)
> > 2. French street names in Ottawa addr:street:fr (john whelan)
> >
> >
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > From: "Laura O'Grady" 
> > To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org (mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org)
> > Cc:
> > Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 20:33:31 -0400
> > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Nunavut place names language
> > Just spotted this map of Nunavut on Twitter:
> >
> > https://mobile.twitter.com/CanadianGIS/status/780181115407626240/photo/1
> >
> > It was created by the Inuit Heritage Trust in 2015 and may provide some 
> > insight into this issue.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Laura
> >
> >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 14:15:02 -0400
> > > From: "Stewart C. Russell" 
> > > To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org (mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org)
> > > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Nunavut place names language
> > > Message-ID: <321f3e73-d212-b162-b7c9-c9ab5edb1...@gmail.com 
> > > (mailto:321f3e73-d212-b162-b7c9-c9ab5edb1...@gmail.com)>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > >> I would like to purpose OSM uses the same standard as this Wikipedia
> > >> Article.
> > >>
> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_communities_in_Nunavut
> > >
> > > Seems reasonable.
> > >
> > >> I really believe that *name=** should be written in english (Community).
> > >
> > > It's certainly more consistent than using "English  Inuktitut",
> > > since it's unlikely that people will call it two things at once.
> > >
> > > Please add name:en as well for the English names. That way, automatic
> > > parsing will show a little less cultural bias.
> > >
> > >> Inuktitut name if different from the name = *alt_name*
> > >
> > > alt_name looks to me like it's for a name that's different in the same
> > > language. This would be the case for Kugaaruk, which is also (according
> > > to the Wikipedia article) known as Arviligjuaq.
> > >
> > >> Inuktitut syllabics = *name:in (ᐃᖅᐊᓗᑦ)*
> > >
> > > name:iu, surely?
> > >
> > > Best Wishes,
> > > Stewart
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > From: john whelan