Bonne trouvaille Pierre!
For our English-speaking colleagues who might find it wearisome to work through the French language info, I will cite the specific street-names guide ( http://www.toponymie.gouv.qc.ca/ct/pdf/guideaffichageodonymique.pdf?ts=0.9319020490929337): "Sur une plaque de rue ou un panneau de signalisation, l'élément générique débute par la particule de position". Loïc On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 2:02 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Send Talk-ca mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Talk-ca digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: French street names in Ottawa (Jonathan Crowe) > 2. Re: French street names in Ottawa (john whelan) > 3. Re: French street names in Ottawa (Pierre Béland) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jonathan Crowe <[email protected]> > To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <[email protected]> > Cc: > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 12:30:51 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa > I just did a quick check. On OSM, Rue/Chemin/Boulevard/etc. are > capitalized in Montréal, Québec, Paris, Marseille, Besançon, Lille — and > Gatineau. Ottawa is the *only* place I’m aware of where capitalizing Rue > etc. is even a question. > > I mean, Quebec highway exit signs capitalize Rue, Boulevard, Chemin and so > forth. Drive any autoroute. > > Which is to say that to me the evidence of existing usage elsewhere in the > francophone world is pretty overwhelming. (For the record, I have been > capitalizing Rue etc. in my edits.) > > This is the second time this month that anglophones (generally) have been > discussing how to deal with names in other languages (see also the Nunavut > place names thread). I think we need to be *very* careful about that: > there’s an excellent chance that we don’t know what we’re talking about. > > Also, I have a hard time believing that search is so case-sensitive that > capitalizing/not capitalizing Rue etc. would break it. (It’s broken in > other ways: searching “boulevard cite des jeunes” does not yield Gatineau’s > Boulevard de la Cité-des-Jeunes. But that’s another issue.) > > > Jonathan Crowe > The Map Room > http://www.maproomblog.com > > > > > On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:51 AM, john whelan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I was under the impression that the City of Ottawa named the streets, > they use lower case for rue. I assumed since they named the streets they > were the authority. > > > > The entries were confirmed with a Francophone School teacher before > being added. > > > > Originally about 97% of the highways in Ottawa had the French name added > following the Ottawa by-law. These were all done in lower case. There > were one or two street names that had odd names that were not covered by > the by-law and these did not have the French added. > > > > Now we have a mixture as people have changed the entry to upper case in > roughly 20% of the cases which is unfortunate as it impacts searching the > French street name entry by name. We also have had a number of highways > added as Ottawa has grown which may or may not have had the French name > added. > > > > Reality is most users use the English version of the street name and > most rendering is done in English. This is similar to many francophones in > Ottawa prefer to use English versions of software as they feel they are > less likely to have undocumented features. > > > > I only know of two renderers that use the French name and they are a > custom set of rules I made for Maperitive and also they can be shown in > OSMand with the right settings. > > > > Cheerio John > > > > > > > > On 26 September 2016 at 10:55, Loïc Haméon <[email protected]> wrote: > > Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and > not "Rue Sparks" > > The first word is not capitalised. > > This was carefully verified before the names were added. > > Thanks John > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > It's true that in French the generic element of place names (rue, > avenue, chemin, etc.) are normally not capitalized as part of a text or > address (http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra&; > srchtxt=rue&cur=9&nmbr=14&lettr=3&info0=3.3.8#zz3). > > > > However, in maps, where the street name is usually shown independent of > anything else and this generic name is the first element of the "sentence", > it is usual for it to be capitalized. This is how they are entered in OSM > in Quebec (http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/ > -71.28523&layers=D) and also in other French maps, whether in Quebec ( > http://carte.ville.quebec.qc.ca/carteinteractive/) or France ( > https://www.viamichelin.fr/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan- > Nantes-44000-Loire_Atlantique-France?strLocid= > 31NDJqejUxMGNORGN1TWpFM09EUT1jTFRFdU5UVTNNVFE9). > > > > As the "rue" part is not considered a proper name, it is subject to > typographical change depending on the context of its use. Regardless of how > it appears on Ottawa street signs, given there is an overwhelming norm for > capitalization in maps, I would recommend you do the same in Ottawa. > > > > Cheers! > > > > Loïc > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: john whelan <[email protected]> > To: Jonathan Crowe <[email protected]> > Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <[email protected]> > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 13:02:20 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa > > I suggest you take it up with the City of Ottawa since they have the > responsibility for naming the streets. > > French in Canada is quite different to other countries. For example > accents are not normally used in upper case in France but in Canada there > are differences of opinion and it seems to relate to the opinion of your > teacher. > > There is very little consensus on what characters are used in the French > language. One accented character only occurs in a single French place > name. Fun when you need to define the character set. 863 is Canadian > French character set by the way that is not used in other countries. > > Cheerio John > > On 26 Sep 2016 12:32 pm, "Jonathan Crowe" <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> I just did a quick check. On OSM, Rue/Chemin/Boulevard/etc. are >> capitalized in Montréal, Québec, Paris, Marseille, Besançon, Lille — and >> Gatineau. Ottawa is the *only* place I’m aware of where capitalizing Rue >> etc. is even a question. >> >> I mean, Quebec highway exit signs capitalize Rue, Boulevard, Chemin and >> so forth. Drive any autoroute. >> >> Which is to say that to me the evidence of existing usage elsewhere in >> the francophone world is pretty overwhelming. (For the record, I have been >> capitalizing Rue etc. in my edits.) >> >> This is the second time this month that anglophones (generally) have been >> discussing how to deal with names in other languages (see also the Nunavut >> place names thread). I think we need to be *very* careful about that: >> there’s an excellent chance that we don’t know what we’re talking about. >> >> Also, I have a hard time believing that search is so case-sensitive that >> capitalizing/not capitalizing Rue etc. would break it. (It’s broken in >> other ways: searching “boulevard cite des jeunes” does not yield Gatineau’s >> Boulevard de la Cité-des-Jeunes. But that’s another issue.) >> >> >> Jonathan Crowe >> The Map Room >> http://www.maproomblog.com >> >> >> >> > On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:51 AM, john whelan <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > I was under the impression that the City of Ottawa named the streets, >> they use lower case for rue. I assumed since they named the streets they >> were the authority. >> > >> > The entries were confirmed with a Francophone School teacher before >> being added. >> > >> > Originally about 97% of the highways in Ottawa had the French name >> added following the Ottawa by-law. These were all done in lower case. >> There were one or two street names that had odd names that were not covered >> by the by-law and these did not have the French added. >> > >> > Now we have a mixture as people have changed the entry to upper case in >> roughly 20% of the cases which is unfortunate as it impacts searching the >> French street name entry by name. We also have had a number of highways >> added as Ottawa has grown which may or may not have had the French name >> added. >> > >> > Reality is most users use the English version of the street name and >> most rendering is done in English. This is similar to many francophones in >> Ottawa prefer to use English versions of software as they feel they are >> less likely to have undocumented features. >> > >> > I only know of two renderers that use the French name and they are a >> custom set of rules I made for Maperitive and also they can be shown in >> OSMand with the right settings. >> > >> > Cheerio John >> > >> > >> > >> > On 26 September 2016 at 10:55, Loïc Haméon <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and >> not "Rue Sparks" >> > The first word is not capitalised. >> > This was carefully verified before the names were added. >> > Thanks John >> > >> > >> > Hi John, >> > >> > It's true that in French the generic element of place names (rue, >> avenue, chemin, etc.) are normally not capitalized as part of a text or >> address (http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra&srchtx >> t=rue&cur=9&nmbr=14&lettr=3&info0=3.3.8#zz3). >> > >> > However, in maps, where the street name is usually shown independent of >> anything else and this generic name is the first element of the "sentence", >> it is usual for it to be capitalized. This is how they are entered in OSM >> in Quebec (http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/ >> -71.28523&layers=D) and also in other French maps, whether in Quebec ( >> http://carte.ville.quebec.qc.ca/carteinteractive/) or France ( >> https://www.viamichelin.fr/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-Nant >> es-44000-Loire_Atlantique-France?strLocid=31NDJqejUxMGNORGN1 >> TWpFM09EUT1jTFRFdU5UVTNNVFE9). >> > >> > As the "rue" part is not considered a proper name, it is subject to >> typographical change depending on the context of its use. Regardless of how >> it appears on Ottawa street signs, given there is an overwhelming norm for >> capitalization in maps, I would recommend you do the same in Ottawa. >> > >> > Cheers! >> > >> > Loïc >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Talk-ca mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca >> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Pierre Béland" <[email protected]> > To: john whelan <[email protected]>, Jonathan Crowe < > [email protected]> > Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <[email protected]> > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 17:58:32 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa > Au Québec, la Commission de toponymie publie les règles d'écriture des > noms. Et oui avec première lettre en capitales. > > voir http://www.toponymie.gouv.qc.ca/ct/normes-procedures/regles-ecriture/ > > > > > Pierre > > > ------------------------------ > *De :* john whelan <[email protected]> > *À :* Jonathan Crowe <[email protected]> > *Cc :* Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <[email protected]> > *Envoyé le :* lundi 26 Septembre 2016 13h02 > *Objet :* Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa > > I suggest you take it up with the City of Ottawa since they have the > responsibility for naming the streets. > French in Canada is quite different to other countries. For example > accents are not normally used in upper case in France but in Canada there > are differences of opinion and it seems to relate to the opinion of your > teacher. > There is very little consensus on what characters are used in the French > language. One accented character only occurs in a single French place > name. Fun when you need to define the character set. 863 is Canadian > French character set by the way that is not used in other countries. > Cheerio John > > On 26 Sep 2016 12:32 pm, "Jonathan Crowe" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > I just did a quick check. On OSM, Rue/Chemin/Boulevard/etc. are > capitalized in Montréal, Québec, Paris, Marseille, Besançon, Lille — and > Gatineau. Ottawa is the *only* place I’m aware of where capitalizing Rue > etc. is even a question. > > I mean, Quebec highway exit signs capitalize Rue, Boulevard, Chemin and so > forth. Drive any autoroute. > > Which is to say that to me the evidence of existing usage elsewhere in the > francophone world is pretty overwhelming. (For the record, I have been > capitalizing Rue etc. in my edits.) > > This is the second time this month that anglophones (generally) have been > discussing how to deal with names in other languages (see also the Nunavut > place names thread). I think we need to be *very* careful about that: > there’s an excellent chance that we don’t know what we’re talking about. > > Also, I have a hard time believing that search is so case-sensitive that > capitalizing/not capitalizing Rue etc. would break it. (It’s broken in > other ways: searching “boulevard cite des jeunes” does not yield Gatineau’s > Boulevard de la Cité-des-Jeunes. But that’s another issue.) > > > Jonathan Crowe > The Map Room > http://www.maproomblog.com > > > > > On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:51 AM, john whelan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I was under the impression that the City of Ottawa named the streets, > they use lower case for rue. I assumed since they named the streets they > were the authority. > > > > The entries were confirmed with a Francophone School teacher before > being added. > > > > Originally about 97% of the highways in Ottawa had the French name added > following the Ottawa by-law. These were all done in lower case. There > were one or two street names that had odd names that were not covered by > the by-law and these did not have the French added. > > > > Now we have a mixture as people have changed the entry to upper case in > roughly 20% of the cases which is unfortunate as it impacts searching the > French street name entry by name. We also have had a number of highways > added as Ottawa has grown which may or may not have had the French name > added. > > > > Reality is most users use the English version of the street name and > most rendering is done in English. This is similar to many francophones in > Ottawa prefer to use English versions of software as they feel they are > less likely to have undocumented features. > > > > I only know of two renderers that use the French name and they are a > custom set of rules I made for Maperitive and also they can be shown in > OSMand with the right settings. > > > > Cheerio John > > > > > > > > On 26 September 2016 at 10:55, Loïc Haméon <[email protected]> wrote: > > Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and > not "Rue Sparks" > > The first word is not capitalised. > > This was carefully verified before the names were added. > > Thanks John > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > It's true that in French the generic element of place names (rue, > avenue, chemin, etc.) are normally not capitalized as part of a text or > address (http://www.btb.termiumplus. gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra& > srchtxt=rue&cur=9&nmbr=14& lettr=3&info0=3.3.8#zz3 > <http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra&srchtxt=rue&cur=9&nmbr=14&lettr=3&info0=3.3.8#zz3> > ). > > > > However, in maps, where the street name is usually shown independent of > anything else and this generic name is the first element of the "sentence", > it is usual for it to be capitalized. This is how they are entered in OSM > in Quebec (http://www.openstreetmap.org/ way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/ > -71.28523&layers=D > <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/-71.28523&layers=D>) > and also in other French maps, whether in Quebec > (http://carte.ville.quebec.qc. > ca/carteinteractive/ <http://carte.ville.quebec.qc.ca/carteinteractive/>) > or France (https://www.viamichelin.fr/ web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan- > Nantes-44000-Loire_Atlantique- France?strLocid= > 31NDJqejUxMGNORGN1TWpFM09EUT1j TFRFdU5UVTNNVFE9 > <https://www.viamichelin.fr/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-Nantes-44000-Loire_Atlantique-France?strLocid=31NDJqejUxMGNORGN1TWpFM09EUT1jTFRFdU5UVTNNVFE9> > ). > > > > As the "rue" part is not considered a proper name, it is subject to > typographical change depending on the context of its use. Regardless of how > it appears on Ottawa street signs, given there is an overwhelming norm for > capitalization in maps, I would recommend you do the same in Ottawa. > > > > Cheers! > > > > Loïc > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Talk-ca mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.openstreetmap. org/listinfo/talk-ca > <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca> > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-ca mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-ca mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > >
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