Re: [Talk-GB] Reverting all Liam123's edits
Hi, Peter Miller wrote: there are two ways to removed vandalism [...] the first is to repair the damage by moving things back to where they should be and re-entering the correct information in tags, the other is to revert the data to before the person touched it. While it would theoretically be possible to do a proper revert on a database level, this has to my knowledge never ever been done in OSM and is very unlikely to be done with Liam123's edits. Whenever we revert something, we actually retrieve the previous version from the object's history and re-upload that as a new version. Always. You are right in saying that this leaves the person who has done the vandalism on the history stack. The only way around this (apart from database-level reverts which are extremely unlikely to ever happen) is to delete the object and re-upload the last known good version as a new object. This is however difficult if you have objects referring each other, and also destroys the pre-vandalism history. Currently people are using a mixture of repairing the damage which leaving the person in the IPR chain, and reverting ways one by one which is slow. However... there is too much damage to efficiently do this manually, hence my question with regard to a programatic removal of the edits which I understand is possible. I have scripts to do reverts on a larger scale, and even talked about them in a workshop at SOTM so they're not super-secret; but they all operate with normal user privileges, nothing on a database level. What they generally do is just what I described above - retrieve a changeset, look at all the objects, access their history, read the last known good version, and upload it again. Exactly the same as someone would do with the H or U functions in Potlatch, just automated. I was acutally about to offer my help with reverting Liam123's changeset you mentioned previously but then I saw that most of the changes had been manually fixed by various other users already. I will ask again. Does anyone support a programatic removal of all this person's edits? Does any object to a programatic removal of all this person's edits. Before saying you object please check a selection of his changes and note that some have been reverted already so might look ok, but were not ok at the time. http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/liam123/edits I can, if there is sufficient consensus, revert everything that currently has Liam123's name to it to the state it was in before he touched it (which also includes deleting things he created and undeleting things he deleted). Some things might not be revertable because others have built upon things that Liam123 has added. I could even, which would be more severe, revert anything he ever touched to the state it was in before, no matter whether someone fiddled with it afterwards or not. This is not by special privilege, it is a technical possibility open to anyone with an OSM account and sufficient scripting expertise. However, this is not something that should be done lightly, and the project has not yet evolved ways to deal with this kind of decision-making. How many people would have to express support for such a wipe-out to make it ok? Is it sufficient to ask on the list whether anyone objects or is this something like the you could have looked at the building plans on Alpha Centauri in the Hitchhiker's Guide? Who, ultimately, decides what vandalism is, and when all avenues of contacting a user have been exhausted? Should not e.g. the OSMF issue a formal warning shot or something like that? Should the OSMF data working group be involved? All these things need to be considered, especially as we'll have more cases of this in the future and we do not want to set a wrong precedent. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Reverting all Liam123's edits
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:16 AM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.comwrote: For the record: I agree with Peter that we need to undo this user's changes, however it is done, and that it could cause large parts of East Anglia to be wiped out if data that happened to have his name on were to be removed because of the license process. We need a way to deal with this. You're exaggerating in this case. But if you're going down that road then liam123 is the least of your worries. Anyway, that's a legal question for a license switch, and the moment he (or anybody else for that matter) touches a node/way/relation it doesn't matter how we revert, we'll still have the problem. The bonus of exact reverts is that they should be pretty easy to detect and discard, but radical changes moved roughly back might not be that hard. He keeps coming back, day after day, making nonsense edits, but not in a random way. It's not just scribbling. Frederick put the revert scripts in svn a while back if you want to take a look. Dave ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Reverting all Liam123's edits
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:00:25 +0100 (BST) Steve Hill st...@nexusuk.org wrote: If there is a user who (by general consensus) is making nonsense edits and is continuing to do so after having been taken to task by email, I would have thought the first thing to do is to ban the user from making edits before considering what to do about the edits they have already made. Bonus points for being able to display a message explaining *why* they've been banned when they next try to edit stuff, with details of who to contact to resolve the situation. That's the most sense anybody has spoken on this so far! Clearly the user needs banning from making edits until we decide whether or not to revert all the edits. I have heard nobody suggest that this user's edits are not nonsense, so why are we still arguing over what to do about this?! - -- Alice -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJKZYTUAAoJEK/Rrn18ahlCdAQP/3rKpFE1OmMRi4V5AwwI3ILl wiQFH5NpdwNB1+6Jq7qxbc7r+BxPg5O81PbAeM1wRV1Ay4ZDcIDLUX3+psU/6GPm 7JaoyK99sjBcB6VmJTVXYBmMzMMH2drCOpkRsW2/uu5EusbF12SbqboSxmBhroH0 Bqj5unwf0S6u+KzuY7DBeW/xbnKMaYO+1lvrgQDRgRKR1vdefozhQLO8dkd3dXmL WwAVRB5p3GgpJgKQbvqVU1Y2nntT8q+mTu4fcGt+92WXKY713VDz0zUqV3AAwV8z LZLOAst5Dj3YwzcpMyJ9IDU97i2nqt6Zm7u5JmwbB4G/xMSxbvJ9lkx/DVrrpECd hcnt2TDNqLgPls3ykDu9pns/SIhq7ZtBggCQM8pzobWUUEUzPs9Lz3YAGlYtNox0 pt5plPgSfL1U5ctDshFdfHeWV40vNb4jBs/e5B40kxWKM7xfLhpaet1DzABccOLz bCywwaEvkYypuDiyqijIUQDFk3Mocatj0fDjo2gHymIPhgFJWqU7GgiFC5uCWPFB F4bUxUVJ70JzITsYvLuZbQ/BaCDvYmJtdFEBGu4wFVZnBWeul8KohZsK+a9IpwTt i1H62610B5VzkMV9vPDQHmXA5rVyz+xgYhhBs6LKlAQ6wAzHh/5U2x0egs4BMiPV GU65gJLIC+P7YSr4nHXF =uzdq -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Reverting all Liam123's edits
On 21 Jul 2009, at 10:05, Alice Kaerast wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:00:25 +0100 (BST) Steve Hill st...@nexusuk.org wrote: If there is a user who (by general consensus) is making nonsense edits and is continuing to do so after having been taken to task by email, I would have thought the first thing to do is to ban the user from making edits before considering what to do about the edits they have already made. Bonus points for being able to display a message explaining *why* they've been banned when they next try to edit stuff, with details of who to contact to resolve the situation. That's the most sense anybody has spoken on this so far! Clearly the user needs banning from making edits until we decide whether or not to revert all the edits. I have heard nobody suggest that this user's edits are not nonsense, so why are we still arguing over what to do about this?! Personally I would prefer not to ban them until we have a better process for dealing with vandalism and stopping malicious contributors- if we ban them they will probably register with a new user-name. I am watching Liam123 at present, but am not watching all new users in the South East! I would like to have an ability to take an RSS feed for contributions in an area listing contributors with then ability to hide information from users who I have classed as 'trusted'. This would require me to be able to set a user's status to 'trusted' when I am happy that their edits are constructive. I may continue to monitor newbies who might need help and also potential trouble-makers. Regards, Peter - -- Alice -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJKZYTUAAoJEK/Rrn18ahlCdAQP/3rKpFE1OmMRi4V5AwwI3ILl wiQFH5NpdwNB1+6Jq7qxbc7r+BxPg5O81PbAeM1wRV1Ay4ZDcIDLUX3+psU/6GPm 7JaoyK99sjBcB6VmJTVXYBmMzMMH2drCOpkRsW2/uu5EusbF12SbqboSxmBhroH0 Bqj5unwf0S6u+KzuY7DBeW/xbnKMaYO+1lvrgQDRgRKR1vdefozhQLO8dkd3dXmL WwAVRB5p3GgpJgKQbvqVU1Y2nntT8q+mTu4fcGt+92WXKY713VDz0zUqV3AAwV8z LZLOAst5Dj3YwzcpMyJ9IDU97i2nqt6Zm7u5JmwbB4G/xMSxbvJ9lkx/DVrrpECd hcnt2TDNqLgPls3ykDu9pns/SIhq7ZtBggCQM8pzobWUUEUzPs9Lz3YAGlYtNox0 pt5plPgSfL1U5ctDshFdfHeWV40vNb4jBs/e5B40kxWKM7xfLhpaet1DzABccOLz bCywwaEvkYypuDiyqijIUQDFk3Mocatj0fDjo2gHymIPhgFJWqU7GgiFC5uCWPFB F4bUxUVJ70JzITsYvLuZbQ/BaCDvYmJtdFEBGu4wFVZnBWeul8KohZsK+a9IpwTt i1H62610B5VzkMV9vPDQHmXA5rVyz+xgYhhBs6LKlAQ6wAzHh/5U2x0egs4BMiPV GU65gJLIC+P7YSr4nHXF =uzdq -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Reverting all Liam123's edits
Dave Stubbs wrote: I really hope that this central working group doesn't get distracted by every clown in the world who messes with an area for a few hours after an evening in the pub! Most disappear quite happily without further interaction. The community can handle the revert. It's only persistent problem users that require further attention and there have been mercifully few of them. This guy is persistent. He's done 35 changesets over about 6 weeks and keeps coming back. David ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Protecting the work - Probation?
Hi, One persons edits have created much talk as we are all worried about damage to the work that has been put into the project, and rightly so. When I started editing over a year ago I was worried (rightly on occasion) that I was damaging rather than contributing, and this actually made it harder for me to contribute gain confidence. There is now a person who's current edits are causing alarm. This situation could alter in the future their work then will be valued. We could currently be looking at a gifted 5 year old who will write a new operating system for mapping systems in the future. For now, they are being monitored incorrect edits repaired in one way or another. Perhaps it is now time to consider different status's for user log-ins. A 'probationer' could be someone new who's first few contributions need monitoring to help them navigate the minefield of tagging, or an existing user who's abilities have waned now need monitoring, perhaps temporarily. Anybody who's status is 'probationer' has their edits validated before they are added to the database. The initial monitoring would have to be for a very limited number of edits, but could provide the necessary buffer to provide safety to the process. Nick (Tallguy) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Protecting the work - Probation?
On 21 Jul 2009, at 13:17, Nick Allen wrote: Hi, One persons edits have created much talk as we are all worried about damage to the work that has been put into the project, and rightly so. When I started editing over a year ago I was worried (rightly on occasion) that I was damaging rather than contributing, and this actually made it harder for me to contribute gain confidence. Of course we should welcome and support newbies and help and encourage them. Some times we will just tweek their tagging to make it work and send them a message, other times one will let them get on with it if it is not structural stuff and possibly invite them to a mapping party. There is now a person who's current edits are causing alarm. This situation could alter in the future their work then will be valued. We could currently be looking at a gifted 5 year old who will write a new operating system for mapping systems in the future. For now, they are being monitored incorrect edits repaired in one way or another. In this situation we have someone pouring duff information into the map for fun and to see what we do about it. We do not have the resources to revert them all one-by-one, especially has he turns up and does new edits reasonably frequently. What we need is his edits out of the DB nice and efficiently so that we can get on with more productive work. If he starts doing good work then we will stop reverting it. Until then, and when he doesn't respond to messages, we should briefly check each new changeset and request a revert. Perhaps it is now time to consider different status's for user log- ins. A 'probationer' could be someone new who's first few contributions need monitoring to help them navigate the minefield of tagging, or an existing user who's abilities have waned now need monitoring, perhaps temporarily. Anybody who's status is 'probationer' has their edits validated before they are added to the database. The initial monitoring would have to be for a very limited number of edits, but could provide the necessary buffer to provide safety to the process. I don't see any need for anything more than what we have at this stage. The tools are getting better making it less easy to mess up data inadvertently and people either seem to tweek what is there a bit or start mapping in a virgin area - I am quite happy with people being able to get on an edit from day one. I will however check out newbie's work in my patch when I see if using OSM Mapper or OSM history. To be clear, my only focus at present is to have good processes for dealing with sustained malicious edits and for us to know who to call in these circumstances. Regards, Peter Nick (Tallguy) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Amenities
Well I have got a few replies to my e-mails to a few places. One of which was Avon[1] Somerset Police. If I was to gather a the lists of places that we should be making sure are mapped onto the maps. Should I gather these up and put them into a database for all to see/use. I have mySQL on my website hosting so I can put it there for now. But does anyone here able to offer me decent advice on how to do this. I was thinking of a table with the columns of id - unique id to keep the database happy amenity - the OSM amenity tag relevant to the business/location url - website if applicable source - so we can put that into the osm source tag addr - all the addr tags to keep the data node - OSM node number or what ever so we can link to it. Items without a node are items we are still looking for. I guess I could add all the tags that are normally tagged to an OSM building, or should I drop that and just have a text box in which as much info as possible can be put in. Do I make it so if other people get data they can add it via the website or do I ask for the data to be mailed to me and I will do it myself? I am confident in basic php/mysql but my skills are limited. Jack Stringer [1]Avon is no longer a district but it still haunts me. My house has always been in Somerset yet they still post stuff to me with the county of Avon. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Protecting the work - Probation?
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