[Talk-GB] Size of download into JOSM

[Stuart Reynolds]

Hi,

Does anyone know if the limits on download size have changed recently? I’ve 
been working on the schools project by downloading “Southend on Sea” via a 
place search and then choosing “boundary” from the list of 2 - that gives me 
the whole Borough in one go. But today (having upgraded to r9329) it is telling 
me that it is a bad request and that the area is too large. It’s a pain if I 
want to work on multiple schools to have to download bits of the town.

Thanks.

Stuart


Stuart Reynolds
for traveline south east & anglia

m: +44 7788 106165
skype: stuartjreynolds



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[Talk-GB] Schools Mapping Progress Tools

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

A few additional features that I've added to my tools at
http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/schools/ recently:

* On the maps on postcode area pages e.g.
http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/schools/progress/IP/ , matches via ref:*
tags are now distinguished from matches based on proximity. The former
are shown with darker green lines, and latter with lighter ones.

* I've built a facility to provide manual corrections to postcodes
from the official data sources. So if any are missing or incorrect or
use a forwarding address, my tools can be given better data. See
http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/schools/data-queries.html for
automatically detected issues. If you want to go hunting for any
missing postcodes, then feel free to email them to me. I need the
Edubase URN (or the appropriate ref from one of the other data
sources), the current postcode in the data source and the corrected
one.

* There is another table at
http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/schools/matching-queries.html that
reports on ref:* tag values that couldn't be parsed into a
valid-looking number. Most of the initial errors there were Edubase
URNs that people had entered as "E 123456" rather than just "123456".
This is probably my fault as it was how I was displaying the numbers
in various tables in my tool. I've now changed the formatting to
hopefully make it more obvious that it's just the number that's the
reference.

Best wishes,

Robert.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Lester Caine]

On 11/02/16 21:32, Michael Booth wrote:
> So my question is, how are we defining villages, towns and cities? Only
> by population, or do we also take into account their generally accepted
> status (whilst trying to be consistent across the country)?

Population is only a rough indicator ... as you say it's more local
choice on any final distinction. I think Facebook may have solved the
problem ... EVERYTHING is a city! Even if getting the city into the
right county/country is something that still has to be fixed :(

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[SK53]

Like you I would certainly expect Kirkcaldy & Dunfermerline as place=towns.
They were elevated to this status only in the past 2 months, after having
been towns on OSM since 2007. I'll restore them to that status.

Unfortunately the rules for places described on the wiki are poorly
conceived and are not generally applied in the UK: they led to many inner
post-industrial suburbs of US cities being labelled as hamlets. In practice
common usage, and local knowledge are what matter. It would be pretty
unusual to change the status of a village/town on OSM in the UK now as most
of these represent a tacit consensus about the choice of tag.

Large villages of the size of yours are often edge cases between village
and town.

Personally I usually find some knowledge of the history of a place as a
guide. In S. Nottinghamshire we have several places with populations near
10,000, but many of them have grown in size very recently: either as
dormitory commuter suburbs (Keyworth, Ravenshead) or as colliery villages
(Cotgrave). On the other hand both Bingham & East Leake which have also
experienced considerable growth post-war, were also significant places
before that. Bingham also has a market place which implies a town-like role
long ago.

Obvious towns in an area of Scotland I know well, Argyll, all less than
10,000 are Oban, Dunoon, Campbeltown, Lochgilphead and Rothesay. Even
Inveraray counts. Most of these would have been Burghs. These illustrate
that it is not possible to apply a hard and fast rule about population, but
instead that (like a lot of tags in OSM) one needs to use situational
knowledge which reflects the role of a given place in its local context.
This tends ot mean the threshold for town-ness is low in sparsely populated
areas.

Jerry



On 11 February 2016 at 21:32, Michael Booth  wrote:

> Hi all, new mapper with a question about the place=* tag.
>
> I noticed my town (population 6,000+) was tagged as place=village, so I
> looked at the wiki and also other places in my council area before making
> any changes.
>
> The wiki gives a suggestion to go by population: city > 100,000; town >
> 10,000; village < 10,000, > 200. But if we do that there will surely be
> differences when compared to how these places are commonly or legally
> perceived?
>
> In Scotland, only four cities are above 100,000:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_and_cities_in_Scotland_by_population
> - so should Perth, Inverness and Stirling be downgraded to towns in OSM?
> Currently Dunfermline and Kirkcaldy are tagged (wrongly IMO) as cities -
> should they be changed to towns?
>
> Same goes for towns/villages - I've seen places tagged as villages when
> smaller places are marked as towns. Or places which Wikipedia refers to as
> villages, but are tagged as towns and vice-versa.
>
> So my question is, how are we defining villages, towns and cities? Only by
> population, or do we also take into account their generally accepted status
> (whilst trying to be consistent across the country)?
>
> Thanks!
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK war office maps of Africa digitised

[Tim Waters]

Hi Richard,

Are you still having issues? That map appears to be okay now, last
rectified 3 days ago and was able to rectify it just now. I've a
screenshot here:
http://imgur.com/bOjMnWq  http://warper.wmflabs.org/maps/261#Preview_tab

Find me on IRC as chippy sometime if you are still encountering problems.

regards,

Tim

On 9 February 2016 at 18:44, Richard Symonds
 wrote:
> Tim,
>
> A lot of these maps won't rectify, even though I've completed all the
> control points. The one I've just come up with is
> http://warper.wmflabs.org/maps/261 - can someone try and preview it, or tell
> me what I'm doing wrong?
>
> Richard Symonds
> Wikimedia UK
> 0207 065 0992
>
> Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
> Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
> Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
> United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
> movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
> operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
>
> Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over
> Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.
>
>
> On 9 February 2016 at 17:30, Jez Nicholson  wrote:
>>
>> I tinkered with the "Kilimanjaro to Tsavo Stn. U.R.. WOOS-8-3-1" map a
>> fair bit. Started by using recognisable locations (features on lakes, etc.)
>> but eventually settled on tagging the grid lines and using online conversion
>> tools to give me the WGS-84. The ones with hills in look great in Google
>> Earth, e.g. http://warper.wmflabs.org/maps/629.kml Difficult to get the map
>> spot on.
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 at 16:28 Tim Waters  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> so after a fix was applied to the Wikimaps Warper the collection of
>>> 581 maps from Wikimedia Commons was re-imported and added to a mosaic
>>> (layer)
>>>
>>>
>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:War%20Office%20Archive%20%E2%80%93%20British%20East%20Africa
>>>
>>> The mosaic:
>>> http://warper.wmflabs.org/layers/4
>>>
>>> The Tiles link is http://warper.wmflabs.org/layers/tile/4/{z}/{x}/{y}.png
>>> and the WMS details can be found at
>>> http://warper.wmflabs.org/layers/4#Export_tab
>>>
>>> and of course individual maps have their own WMS and Tiles endpoints too
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> p.s. Note that loading up a map for the first might take a once only
>>> period of a couple of minutes as the map gets requested from commons
>>> and is loaded up in the warper ... you should see a progress bar in
>>> that case!
>>>
>>> p.p.s. There's an issue with the warper not getting the correct
>>> thumbnail for some of the maps, but it shouldn't affect how it works
>>> in the warper.
>>>
>>> On 2 February 2016 at 13:58, Jez Nicholson 
>>> wrote:
>>> > The export tab http://warper.wmflabs.org/maps/629#Export_tab includes a
>>> > WMS
>>> > link "for JOSM OpenStreetMap Editor"
>>> >
>>> > I haven't tried it yet as my company have firewalled the office with an
>>> > https whitelist.
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 at 17:34 Andy Mabbett 
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On 1 February 2016 at 13:02, Tim Waters  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > Great stuff. I think a few hundred maps (if not all) from this
>>> >> > collection
>>> >> > are already in the wikimaps warper.
>>> >> > However there was an issue with making a mosaic (stitched layer) for
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > category, so this will be fixed soon.
>>> >>
>>> >> Once that's done, how can people see the layer in JOSM?
>>> >>
>>> >> > I think the British Library also has control points for the maps
>>> >> > which
>>> >> > could
>>> >> > be added to the warper when ready (I'd have to double check on this
>>> >> > point
>>> >> > though).
>>> >>
>>> >> My contact tells me they (BL & Indigo Trust) want to see the maps
>>> >> reused; if there's a speciific request, I can forward it to them.
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Andy Mabbett
>>> >> @pigsonthewing
>>> >> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Additional Tagging Suggestions for Schools

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On 12 February 2016 at 09:51, Stuart Reynolds
 wrote:
> As a side issue, does your tool currently ignore disused:amenity=* tags? If 
> not, can it please. Thanks.

The tool only fetches amenity=school and amenity=college objects, so
disused:amenity=* (and other similar variants) will always be ignored.

On 12 February 2016 at 10:07, Stuart Reynolds
 wrote:
> …oh, and if the name matching could be tolerant to “&” and “and", that would 
> be brilliant, too. It’s not a biggie, because I’m getting matched against the 
> Edubase reference, but the names are otherwise the same and I’m using & for 
> brevity.

The name matching (which currently just checks the two strings for an
exact match) isn't actually used for much. The only place it's used is
when looking for a geographically close match between an OSM object
and an official location, a pair with an exact name match will be
preferred over other closer matches. Matches based on ref:* tags
always take priority, and if there's no exact name match, then the
nearest unmatched object with 1km is chosen.

That said, it's on my To Do list to look at doing a fuzzy name
comparison -- probably by deleting common words / phrases (School,
Academy, CofE, Voluntary Controlled, and, &, etc) from both strings
and then seeing if what's left is equal. This would probably be used
to flag up possible errors in matched pairs (either in the OSM name or
the matching), rather than as a way to get better matching in the
first place. The latter can always be solved by adding the ref:*
values to OSM.

Best wishes,

Robert.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Paul Berry]

Hi Michael,

Going the other way, what's the cutoff between a hamlet and a village?
Population 50? 100? I'd say that with these categories there's some
fuzziness so go with what feels right. On the ground experience over
armchair mapping wins out here I think (as it does for most things OSM).
More complexity: a place that would be a hamlet or village near a town or
city can find itself a neighbourhood or suburb over time. Again the
distinction can be a fine one.

Also, and a more important point than all the above, welcome!

Regards,
*Paul*

On 12 February 2016 at 12:04, Tom Hughes  wrote:

> On 12/02/16 11:51, Ian Caldwell wrote:
>
>>
>> On 11 February 2016 at 21:32, Michael Booth > > wrote:
>>
>> So my question is, how are we defining villages, towns and cities?
>> Only by population, or do we also take into account their generally
>> accepted status (whilst trying to be consistent across the country)?
>>
>>
>> In England towns will normally have a town council. Villages
>> will normally have a parish council. Only really a name difference see
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_council#England_and_Wales .
>>
>
> Normally is a very strong word... There are many, many towns and villages
> without any town or parish council.
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
> http://compton.nu/
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Colin Smale]

According to Wikipedia, it is country-dependent. As it is an English
word, we should only discuss about its meaning in an English-speaking
context. There is no such thing as a hamlet in Germany for example; they
have different words with different semantics, which may or may not map
onto English concepts. 

The common theme indicated by the Wikipedia article is that a hamlet is
in some way dependent or subordinate to a larger settlement. For example
it may not have its own church. That in itself does not define an
absolute cut-off point in terms of population; it is dependent on the
settlement's context with respect to its surroundings.

In the UK of course it is a matter of status to be called a City, and
there is an unambiguous list of cities. This list can only be changed by
the Crown through parliament. The smallest city is St Davids in Wales,
with a population of 1841 (2011 figure). Any attempt to retag it in OSM
to place=village will probably be reverted within 0.1 nanoseconds 

A smaller incorporated settlement (civil parish) can decide unilaterally
to call itself a town. Changes don't happen very often of course, but it
is a point of civic pride for the inhabitants as the council becomes a
Town Council and they can have a Town Mayor. This is also independent of
the population, but the status is carried by the council whose area may
include a substantial rural element, which would also become part of the
"town". If you ask an inhabitant of that area whether X is a town or a
village, they will tell you, and it has nothing to do with
population 

In other countries a rule based on population may be appropriate, but in
the UK it is definitely a question of status. 

//colin 

On 2016-02-12 13:39, Paul Berry wrote:

> Hi Michael, 
> 
> Going the other way, what's the cutoff between a hamlet and a village? 
> Population 50? 100? I'd say that with these categories there's some fuzziness 
> so go with what feels right. On the ground experience over armchair mapping 
> wins out here I think (as it does for most things OSM). More complexity: a 
> place that would be a hamlet or village near a town or city can find itself a 
> neighbourhood or suburb over time. Again the distinction can be a fine one. 
> 
> Also, and a more important point than all the above, welcome! 
> 
> Regards, 
> _Paul_
> 
> On 12 February 2016 at 12:04, Tom Hughes  wrote:
> On 12/02/16 11:51, Ian Caldwell wrote:
> 
> On 11 February 2016 at 21:32, Michael Booth  > wrote:
> 
> So my question is, how are we defining villages, towns and cities?
> Only by population, or do we also take into account their generally
> accepted status (whilst trying to be consistent across the country)?
> 
> In England towns will normally have a town council. Villages
> will normally have a parish council. Only really a name difference see
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_council#England_and_Wales .
> 
> Normally is a very strong word... There are many, many towns and villages 
> without any town or parish council.
> 
> Tom
> 
> -- 
> Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
> http://compton.nu/ 
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Size of download into JOSM

[SK53]

It's a limitation in the API (quarter of a degree or 50k nodes IIRC), so
Southend has crept over that limit.

There are a number of options:

   - Perform multiple downloads & then keep a Southend file locally. You
   can then request that it be updated before editing (I do this for a couple
   of areas of London where I edit sporadically).
   - It's easy to download just the schools in Overpass & do something
   similar in JOSM. I'm not sure how one might get all objects within multiple
   schools in Overpass but it might be possible.
   - Download schools as centroids from Overpass, load into JOSM and use
   the todo plugin to work through them downloading small areas for each
   school. I'm doing something like this using FHRS data in Northern Ireland
   (although the postcode centroids used by FHRS are often 100s of metres away
   from the school).

Jerry

On 12 February 2016 at 09:54, Stuart Reynolds <
stu...@travelinesoutheast.org.uk> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Does anyone know if the limits on download size have changed recently?
> I’ve been working on the schools project by downloading “Southend on Sea”
> via a place search and then choosing “boundary” from the list of 2 - that
> gives me the whole Borough in one go. But today (having upgraded to r9329)
> it is telling me that it is a bad request and that the area is too large.
> It’s a pain if I want to work on multiple schools to have to download bits
> of the town.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Stuart
>
> 
> Stuart Reynolds
> for traveline south east & anglia
>
> m: +44 7788 106165
> skype: stuartjreynolds
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Size of download into JOSM

[Stuart Reynolds]

Thanks. I discovered that I *can* actually get the whole Borough, if I dispense 
with about a mile and a half of sea to the south. As there aren’t many schools 
down the pier, I thought I could probably live with that :)

Will take your advice and save locally / update.

Cheers
Stuart


Stuart Reynolds
for traveline south east & anglia



On 12 Feb 2016, at 10:35, SK53 > 
wrote:

It's a limitation in the API (quarter of a degree or 50k nodes IIRC), so 
Southend has crept over that limit.

There are a number of options:

  *   Perform multiple downloads & then keep a Southend file locally. You can 
then request that it be updated before editing (I do this for a couple of areas 
of London where I edit sporadically).
  *   It's easy to download just the schools in Overpass & do something similar 
in JOSM. I'm not sure how one might get all objects within multiple schools in 
Overpass but it might be possible.
  *   Download schools as centroids from Overpass, load into JOSM and use the 
todo plugin to work through them downloading small areas for each school. I'm 
doing something like this using FHRS data in Northern Ireland (although the 
postcode centroids used by FHRS are often 100s of metres away from the school).

Jerry

On 12 February 2016 at 09:54, Stuart Reynolds 
> 
wrote:
Hi,

Does anyone know if the limits on download size have changed recently? I’ve 
been working on the schools project by downloading “Southend on Sea” via a 
place search and then choosing “boundary” from the list of 2 - that gives me 
the whole Borough in one go. But today (having upgraded to r9329) it is telling 
me that it is a bad request and that the area is too large. It’s a pain if I 
want to work on multiple schools to have to download bits of the town.

Thanks.

Stuart


Stuart Reynolds
for traveline south east & anglia

m: +44 7788 106165
skype: stuartjreynolds



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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Ian Caldwell]

On 11 February 2016 at 21:32, Michael Booth  wrote:

> So my question is, how are we defining villages, towns and cities? Only by
> population, or do we also take into account their generally accepted status
> (whilst trying to be consistent across the country)?


In England towns will normally have a town council. Villages
will normally have a parish council. Only really a name difference see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_council#England_and_Wales .


Ian
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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Tom Hughes]

On 12/02/16 11:51, Ian Caldwell wrote:


On 11 February 2016 at 21:32, Michael Booth > wrote:

So my question is, how are we defining villages, towns and cities?
Only by population, or do we also take into account their generally
accepted status (whilst trying to be consistent across the country)?


In England towns will normally have a town council. Villages
will normally have a parish council. Only really a name difference see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_council#England_and_Wales .


Normally is a very strong word... There are many, many towns and 
villages without any town or parish council.


Tom

--
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http://compton.nu/

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK war office maps of Africa digitised

[Richard Symonds]

yep, seems to be working now! I'll get cracking.

Richard Symonds
Wikimedia UK
0207 065 0992

Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).

*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*

On 12 February 2016 at 11:25, Tim Waters  wrote:

> Hi Richard,
>
> Are you still having issues? That map appears to be okay now, last
> rectified 3 days ago and was able to rectify it just now. I've a
> screenshot here:
> http://imgur.com/bOjMnWq  http://warper.wmflabs.org/maps/261#Preview_tab
>
> Find me on IRC as chippy sometime if you are still encountering problems.
>
> regards,
>
> Tim
>
> On 9 February 2016 at 18:44, Richard Symonds
>  wrote:
> > Tim,
> >
> > A lot of these maps won't rectify, even though I've completed all the
> > control points. The one I've just come up with is
> > http://warper.wmflabs.org/maps/261 - can someone try and preview it, or
> tell
> > me what I'm doing wrong?
> >
> > Richard Symonds
> > Wikimedia UK
> > 0207 065 0992
> >
> > Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
> > Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
> > Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A
> 4LT.
> > United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
> > movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
> > operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
> >
> > Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
> over
> > Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.
> >
> >
> > On 9 February 2016 at 17:30, Jez Nicholson 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I tinkered with the "Kilimanjaro to Tsavo Stn. U.R.. WOOS-8-3-1" map a
> >> fair bit. Started by using recognisable locations (features on lakes,
> etc.)
> >> but eventually settled on tagging the grid lines and using online
> conversion
> >> tools to give me the WGS-84. The ones with hills in look great in Google
> >> Earth, e.g. http://warper.wmflabs.org/maps/629.kml Difficult to get
> the map
> >> spot on.
> >>
> >> On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 at 16:28 Tim Waters  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi folks,
> >>>
> >>> so after a fix was applied to the Wikimaps Warper the collection of
> >>> 581 maps from Wikimedia Commons was re-imported and added to a mosaic
> >>> (layer)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:War%20Office%20Archive%20%E2%80%93%20British%20East%20Africa
> >>>
> >>> The mosaic:
> >>> http://warper.wmflabs.org/layers/4
> >>>
> >>> The Tiles link is
> http://warper.wmflabs.org/layers/tile/4/{z}/{x}/{y}.png
> >>> and the WMS details can be found at
> >>> http://warper.wmflabs.org/layers/4#Export_tab
> >>>
> >>> and of course individual maps have their own WMS and Tiles endpoints
> too
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Tim
> >>>
> >>> p.s. Note that loading up a map for the first might take a once only
> >>> period of a couple of minutes as the map gets requested from commons
> >>> and is loaded up in the warper ... you should see a progress bar in
> >>> that case!
> >>>
> >>> p.p.s. There's an issue with the warper not getting the correct
> >>> thumbnail for some of the maps, but it shouldn't affect how it works
> >>> in the warper.
> >>>
> >>> On 2 February 2016 at 13:58, Jez Nicholson 
> >>> wrote:
> >>> > The export tab http://warper.wmflabs.org/maps/629#Export_tab
> includes a
> >>> > WMS
> >>> > link "for JOSM OpenStreetMap Editor"
> >>> >
> >>> > I haven't tried it yet as my company have firewalled the office with
> an
> >>> > https whitelist.
> >>> >
> >>> > On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 at 17:34 Andy Mabbett 
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On 1 February 2016 at 13:02, Tim Waters 
> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> > Great stuff. I think a few hundred maps (if not all) from this
> >>> >> > collection
> >>> >> > are already in the wikimaps warper.
> >>> >> > However there was an issue with making a mosaic (stitched layer)
> for
> >>> >> > the
> >>> >> > category, so this will be fixed soon.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Once that's done, how can people see the layer in JOSM?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> > I think the British Library also has control points for the maps
> >>> >> > which
> >>> >> > could
> >>> >> > be added to the warper when ready (I'd have to double check on
> this
> >>> >> > point
> >>> >> > though).
> >>> >>
> >>> >> My contact tells me they (BL & Indigo Trust) want to see the maps
> >>> >> reused; if there's a speciific 

Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Andy Townsend]

On 12/02/2016 13:15, Colin Smale wrote:


According to Wikipedia, ...



... I wouldn't assume that what wikipedia says has any particular 
relevance with respect to how something is mapped in OSM.  The language 
used in the English wikipedia is a mix of American and English (and 
other) usages, and how things are mapped in OSM doesn't always match 
"common [British] English usage".



it is country-dependent.



That, however, is entirely correct.  The Irish, for example have a very 
clear idea of what their "cities" are.  It's less clear on this side of 
the Irish Sea.


In the UK of course it is a matter of status to be called a City, and 
there is an unambiguous list of cities. 


That's the legal definition, not the OSM one.  Perhaps you are 
unfamiliar with the previous discussion, but this has been done to death 
before.  See these threads among others:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2014-February/thread.html#15867

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2014-April/thread.html#15982

and particularly this post:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2014-April/015983.html

which makes it clear why using the "legal city definition" might not 
make sense in OSM _across the board_.  It might in some places (it's 
essentially what the Irish do, I believe), but I'd argue it doesn't here 
because of e.g. St David's (see below) and Telford, which despite its 
size doesn't really feel like a city to me - although if someone more 
local says I'm wrong, I'll believe them.



This list can only be changed by the Crown through parliament. The 
smallest city is St Davids in Wales, with a population of 1841 (2011 
figure). Any attempt to retag it in OSM to place=village will probably 
be reverted within 0.1 nanoseconds 


I'd be interested to see the history of St David's.  The current node

http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=3712052604

was only created in August 2015; I wonder what it was before?


 but it is a point of civic pride for the inhabitants as the 
council becomes a Town Council ...




A number of places _call_ themselves a town council, because they can.  
It's pretty irrelevant to status in OSM.  See Jerry's post above (from 
that for example I'd call Bingham a town and Keyworth not because that's 
what they feel like to me).


What doesn't work with city/town/village classification is someone 
diving in and making lots of changes without explaining why; what does 
is a bit of discussion first so that we know that yes, there are still 
different opinions on this and that of the various options XYZ tagging 
has the least oponents.


Cheers,

Andy

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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Stuart Reynolds]

Leigh-on-sea has a Town Council. And the residents of Leigh (myself included) 
like to give it an identity that is distinct from Southend-on-sea, which 
historically it was. But in practice you would be hard pushed to claim that 
Leigh was a separate town. Administratively, it has been part of the Borough 
(Town) of Southend-on-sea for many, many years and there are no hard and fast 
boundaries that show where it starts and ends on at least two sides. So just 
because it has a Town Council (but not, in this case, a mayor), it doesn’t mean 
that it _is_ a town.

Personally, I had always regarded Hamlet/Village/Town as being population-based 
designators.

Regards,
Stuart


Stuart Reynolds
for traveline south east & anglia



On 12 Feb 2016, at 13:15, Colin Smale 
> wrote:


According to Wikipedia, it is country-dependent. As it is an English word, we 
should only discuss about its meaning in an English-speaking context. There is 
no such thing as a hamlet in Germany for example; they have different words 
with different semantics, which may or may not map onto English concepts.

The common theme indicated by the Wikipedia article is that a hamlet is in some 
way dependent or subordinate to a larger settlement. For example it may not 
have its own church. That in itself does not define an absolute cut-off point 
in terms of population; it is dependent on the settlement's context with 
respect to its surroundings.



In the UK of course it is a matter of status to be called a City, and there is 
an unambiguous list of cities. This list can only be changed by the Crown 
through parliament. The smallest city is St Davids in Wales, with a population 
of 1841 (2011 figure). Any attempt to retag it in OSM to place=village will 
probably be reverted within 0.1 nanoseconds

A smaller incorporated settlement (civil parish) can decide unilaterally to 
call itself a town. Changes don't happen very often of course, but it is a 
point of civic pride for the inhabitants as the council becomes a Town Council 
and they can have a Town Mayor. This is also independent of the population, but 
the status is carried by the council whose area may include a substantial rural 
element, which would also become part of the "town". If you ask an inhabitant 
of that area whether X is a town or a village, they will tell you, and it has 
nothing to do with population

In other countries a rule based on population may be appropriate, but in the UK 
it is definitely a question of status.

//colin

On 2016-02-12 13:39, Paul Berry wrote:

Hi Michael,

Going the other way, what's the cutoff between a hamlet and a village? 
Population 50? 100? I'd say that with these categories there's some fuzziness 
so go with what feels right. On the ground experience over armchair mapping 
wins out here I think (as it does for most things OSM). More complexity: a 
place that would be a hamlet or village near a town or city can find itself a 
neighbourhood or suburb over time. Again the distinction can be a fine one.

Also, and a more important point than all the above, welcome!

Regards,
Paul

On 12 February 2016 at 12:04, Tom Hughes 
> wrote:
On 12/02/16 11:51, Ian Caldwell wrote:

On 11 February 2016 at 21:32, Michael Booth 

>> wrote:

So my question is, how are we defining villages, towns and cities?
Only by population, or do we also take into account their generally
accepted status (whilst trying to be consistent across the country)?


In England towns will normally have a town council. Villages
will normally have a parish council. Only really a name difference see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_council#England_and_Wales .

Normally is a very strong word... There are many, many towns and villages 
without any town or parish council.

Tom

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http://compton.nu/


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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Chris Hill]

On 12/02/16 11:51, Ian Caldwell wrote:


On 11 February 2016 at 21:32, Michael Booth > wrote:


So my question is, how are we defining villages, towns and cities?
Only by population, or do we also take into account their
generally accepted status (whilst trying to be consistent across
the country)?


In England towns will normally have a town council. Villages 
will normally have a parish council. Only really a name difference see 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_council#England_and_Wales .


The whole situation is complex. There are places with 'city status' that 
really aren't for OSM's purposes, there are villages that become towns, 
villages bigger than many towns that are still villages, there are town 
council areas and civil parishes that have more than one settlement in 
them with separate names, some of which may ormay not be a hamlet. I 
have found a local example where a civil parish has declared itself to 
be a town, but both of the settlements in it are still firmly villages 
(see http://chris-osm.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/when-is-town-not-town.html).


I love living in a country with such variety and I'm very pleased that 
OSM copes nicely with this variety (if the tag and wiki fiddlers just 
leave things alone).


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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri Feb 12 13:52:13 2016 GMT, Andy Townsend wrote:
> 
> which makes it clear why using the "legal city definition" might not 
> make sense in OSM _across the board_.  It might in some places (it's 
> essentially what the Irish do, I believe), but I'd argue it doesn't here 
> because of e.g. St David's (see below) and Telford, which despite its 
> size doesn't really feel like a city to me - although if someone more 
> local says I'm wrong, I'll believe them.

I'm local, and you are not wrong.  A city needs to be more than a big housing 
estate and a shopping centre that closes in the evening. True  50 years after 
the original planners blunder they are  doing something about it.
> 
> I'd be interested to see the history of St David's.  The current node
> 
> http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=3712052604
> 
> was only created in August 2015; I wonder what it was before?
> 
It was certainly a city before then, as far as I remember it was a road 
junction node, I should be able find it when I get home.

Phil (trigpoint )


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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[SK53]

On 12 February 2016 at 13:15, Colin Smale  wrote:

> According to Wikipedia, it is country-dependent. As it is an English word,
> we should only discuss about its meaning in an English-speaking context.
> There is no such thing as a hamlet in Germany for example; they have
> different words with different semantics, which may or may not map onto
> English concepts.
> //colin
>

I think this is an example of where relying on wikipedia might be
unreliable.

German mappers have mapped lots (my browser gave out at 21k for Bavaria).
OK, some of these may be small villages & a cursory inspection suggests
that some may be closer to what we'd use place=locality for, but certainly
in alpine areas summer hamlets are an integral part of agricultural life.
Switzerland, which I know better and shares similar settlement patterns to
parts of Germany has 4800 hamlets cf. 3600 villages.
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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Killyfole and District Development Association]

Hi all,

In Northern Ireland we have a government body called the Northern Ireland 
Statistics and Research Agency, who work with the census data to determine the 
size and definition of a settlement - http://www.nisra.gov.uk/

Do you not have the same in the rest of the UK?

Usually when they publish a report on settlements the local newspapers write 
an article about it, the last report I read was of settlements being 
downgraded due to a decline in population.  The newspaper concluded that mass 
emigration of young people was to blame.  It was quite the talking point!

Clive  


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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Colin Smale]

Can I mention the City of Brighton and Hove? The city status is held by
the unitary authority (Brighton and Hove City Council). Neither Brighton
nor Hove is a city. 

//colin 

On 2016-02-12 15:23, Chris Hill wrote:

> On 12/02/16 11:51, Ian Caldwell wrote: 
> 
>> On 11 February 2016 at 21:32, Michael Booth > > wrote:
>> 
>> So my question is, how are we defining villages, towns and cities?
>> Only by population, or do we also take into account their
>> generally accepted status (whilst trying to be consistent across
>> the country)?
>> 
>> In England towns will normally have a town council. Villages will normally 
>> have a parish council. Only really a name difference see 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_council#England_and_Wales .
> The whole situation is complex. There are places with 'city status' that 
> really aren't for OSM's purposes, there are villages that become towns, 
> villages bigger than many towns that are still villages, there are town 
> council areas and civil parishes that have more than one settlement in them 
> with separate names, some of which may ormay not be a hamlet. I have found a 
> local example where a civil parish has declared itself to be a town, but both 
> of the settlements in it are still firmly villages (see 
> http://chris-osm.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/when-is-town-not-town.html).
> 
> I love living in a country with such variety and I'm very pleased that OSM 
> copes nicely with this variety (if the tag and wiki fiddlers just leave 
> things alone).
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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Colin Smale]

We are never going to get worldwide consensus on this, so let's stop trying. 
Just focusing on the UK situation, as has been mentioned many times before, 
there are multiple definitions of these terms, all equally correct within their 
own contexts. there is the legal definition, the people's definition, and the 
definition based on population. If we use population for place=*, how do we get 
the rendering to correspond to expectations? We will need additional tags I 
think.


On 12 February 2016 14:52:13 CET, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>On 12/02/2016 13:15, Colin Smale wrote:
>>
>> According to Wikipedia, ...
>>
>
>... I wouldn't assume that what wikipedia says has any particular 
>relevance with respect to how something is mapped in OSM.  The language
>
>used in the English wikipedia is a mix of American and English (and 
>other) usages, and how things are mapped in OSM doesn't always match 
>"common [British] English usage".
>
>> it is country-dependent.
>>
>
>That, however, is entirely correct.  The Irish, for example have a very
>
>clear idea of what their "cities" are.  It's less clear on this side of
>
>the Irish Sea.
>
>> In the UK of course it is a matter of status to be called a City, and
>
>> there is an unambiguous list of cities. 
>
>That's the legal definition, not the OSM one.  Perhaps you are 
>unfamiliar with the previous discussion, but this has been done to
>death 
>before.  See these threads among others:
>
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2014-February/thread.html#15867
>
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2014-April/thread.html#15982
>
>and particularly this post:
>
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2014-April/015983.html
>
>which makes it clear why using the "legal city definition" might not 
>make sense in OSM _across the board_.  It might in some places (it's 
>essentially what the Irish do, I believe), but I'd argue it doesn't
>here 
>because of e.g. St David's (see below) and Telford, which despite its 
>size doesn't really feel like a city to me - although if someone more 
>local says I'm wrong, I'll believe them.
>
>
>> This list can only be changed by the Crown through parliament. The 
>> smallest city is St Davids in Wales, with a population of 1841 (2011 
>> figure). Any attempt to retag it in OSM to place=village will
>probably 
>> be reverted within 0.1 nanoseconds 
>
>I'd be interested to see the history of St David's.  The current node
>
>http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=3712052604
>
>was only created in August 2015; I wonder what it was before?
>
>
>>  but it is a point of civic pride for the inhabitants as the 
>> council becomes a Town Council ...
>>
>
>A number of places _call_ themselves a town council, because they can. 
>
>It's pretty irrelevant to status in OSM.  See Jerry's post above (from 
>that for example I'd call Bingham a town and Keyworth not because
>that's 
>what they feel like to me).
>
>What doesn't work with city/town/village classification is someone 
>diving in and making lots of changes without explaining why; what does 
>is a bit of discussion first so that we know that yes, there are still 
>different opinions on this and that of the various options XYZ tagging 
>has the least oponents.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Andy
>
>
>
>
>
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[Talk-GB] Additional Tagging Suggestions for Schools

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

A couple of areas where I think we could improve on our tagging to
help data users:

* I think it would be useful if we had a machine-readable way to tag
an amenity=school area that is actually a site shared between two or
more individual schools. In this case, while the area will probably be
tagged amenity=school, it doesn't actually correspond to an individual
school, and data uses should expect additional amenity=school objects
for the individual schools within it. Maybe something like
school=shared_site. My tools could then ignore such objects for the
purposes of matching to official data.

* I think it would be useful if we had a machine-readable way to tag a
school site that isn't the main site for that particular school. This
would let data-users know that the school object isn't a separate
school, but is part of another school that they should expect to find
another amenity=school object for. This would also help my tools as
they could then check that there is only one main site for each
official school and flag up errors where this is not the case. Any
matching distance errors could also be downgraded on non-main sites.
I'm not sure how best to tag this though. main_site=no,
additional_site=yes, ... ?

Best wishes,

Robert.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] place=village/town/city

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2016-02-12 at 14:53 +, Philip Barnes wrote:
> 

On Fri Feb 12 13:52:13 2016 GMT, Andy Townsend wrote:


I'd be interested to see the history of St David's.  The current
node


http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=3712052604


was only created in August 2015; I wonder what it was before?

It was certainly a city before then, as far as I remember it was a
road junction node, I should be able find it when I get home.


The original node, 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3216768/history


Phil (trigpoint )

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Re: [Talk-GB] Additional Tagging Suggestions for Schools

[Lester Caine]

On 12/02/16 10:51, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
> That said, it's on my To Do list to look at doing a fuzzy name
> comparison -- probably by deleting common words / phrases (School,
> Academy, CofE, Voluntary Controlled, and, &, etc) from both strings
> and then seeing if what's left is equal. This would probably be used
> to flag up possible errors in matched pairs (either in the OSM name or
> the matching), rather than as a way to get better matching in the
> first place. The latter can always be solved by adding the ref:*
> values to OSM.

I adopted the standard of official_name=xxx where the edubase listing
differs from the signage or other local 'format'. A few schools have
been 're-branded' as they became academies, but either the local site
has yet to updated, or the school IS using a different name to that
registered. A quite common one is the CofE and how it's printed on site
or on other documents. This is a bit of a mess across the board :(

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Additional Tagging Suggestions for Schools

[John Aldridge]

On 12-Feb-16 20:22, Lester Caine wrote:

On 12/02/16 19:34, John Aldridge wrote:

On 12-Feb-16 17:31, Lester Caine wrote:

I adopted the standard of official_name=xxx where the edubase listing
differs from the signage or other local 'format'...


I'm not objecting, but why did you feel you wanted to clone information
from edubase into OSM at all?

Given the presence of the ref:edubase tag, I can look the official
information up if I want to know (and without the risk of it becoming
out of date).


I have no problem on them being removed,


I have no intention of removing anything -- I'm merely curious!


but while cross checking they
were a useful reference, and seeing the entry I can see how many are
different in edubase.


You mean they serve the same function as not:name does for street names 
in reducing noise from automated consistency checking? OK, I can see 
that's useful.



But don't assume that the data
provided by the third party are more up to date than the OSM version ;)


But in this case of official_name I thought you were saying the 
appropriate value was the value from edubase, so by definition it 
couldn't be out of date there.



A substantial number of the website links I loaded are out of date on
the edubase records :( OSM is now more accurate than edubase ...


Now that doesn't surprise me at all! I absolutely agree that putting 
(e.g.) website information into OSM is appropriate -- especially if 
edubase is wrong.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Additional Tagging Suggestions for Schools

[Lester Caine]

On 12/02/16 19:34, John Aldridge wrote:
> On 12-Feb-16 17:31, Lester Caine wrote:
>> I adopted the standard of official_name=xxx where the edubase listing
>> differs from the signage or other local 'format'...
> 
> I'm not objecting, but why did you feel you wanted to clone information
> from edubase into OSM at all?
> 
> Given the presence of the ref:edubase tag, I can look the official
> information up if I want to know (and without the risk of it becoming
> out of date).

I have no problem on them being removed, but while cross checking they
were a useful reference, and seeing the entry I can see how many are
different in edubase.

Of cause what would be nice is a tool that imports third party data
records given a reference in OSM. But don't assume that the data
provided by the third party are more up to date than the OSM version ;)
A substantial number of the website links I loaded are out of date on
the edubase records :( OSM is now more accurate than edubase ...

-- 
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