Re: [Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems
Looking at your Kew Gardens tag it looks excellent with just one issue. It's correctly tagged for all 3 networks in one as National Rail;London Underground;London Overground but it does tag both stop positions on the two oposite direction tracks as railway=station which i feel should both be changed to be railway=stop or public_transport=platform and a new, single node should be railway=station for the entire station? I must have missed those station tags on the stop positions first time round, I did say I attempted to do it :) I've removed those now, and I think the station property is captured in the area represented by way 199669935 which surrounds the whole station. On 8 March 2013 23:49, James Churchman jameschurch...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Aidan, thanks for such a fast reply! Yes very messy indeed!! Great i had a good read of that link you sent along with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dstation and a few others. Reading : --- * For simple modeling of simple stations with a single track (or one in each direction) just add a node with railway=station and name=* at an appropriate point on the railway (tagged railway=rail, railway=subway etc). * For complex or larger stations it is often best to create a node within the main concourse area and use a public_transport=stop_area to associate this with the rest of the elements of the station. --- It sounds like uk tube stations that are largely underground the best thing is just a node. For larger stations there should still be a node but also but add it to a relation and additionally tag the Node as a Stop Area and along with an Area for the building=station .. but the building=station Area is not sufficient to be a station its self.. it needs a node Further down : --- * There should only be a single railway=station tag for each station. Where there are multiple nodes for a single station then consider converting the station to the area format and moving the relevant tags (including the name etc) to this area and remove the station tag from all the existing 'station' nodes. * Where a mainline station and metro station (or other railway like station) are physically connected, consider if they should be modeled as separate stations or as a single station. The associated Wikipedia article for the facilities might assist with the decision. If the facilities are run by separate organisations (for example a heritage station next to a mainline station) then it is probably better to map them using two separate railway=station tags. --- So this would indicate that only one station tag should ever be used .. Looking at your Kew Gardens tag it looks excellent with just one issue. It's correctly tagged for all 3 networks in one as National Rail;London Underground;London Overground but it does tag both stop positions on the two oposite direction tracks as railway=station which i feel should both be changed to be railway=stop or public_transport=platform and a new, single node should be railway=station for the entire station? Think i am starting to understand how it should be done :-) BR James On 8 March 2013 21:35, Aidan McGinley aidmcgin+openstreet...@gmail.com wrote: James, Seems like a bit of a mess alright. Take a look at the approved proposal for public transport which should be the standard to work towards I would think - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport I attempted to apply this to Kew Gardens station a while back (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.47707lon=-0.28496zoom=17) it's not exactly straightforward, and I'm not sure how well it would work when the station is entirely underground like much of central London. Aidan On 8 March 2013 21:05, James Churchman jameschurch...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Guys I was originally attempting to get all the London Underground Tube stations and Rail stations from OSM ( london xml file ) The issues with the data I have had are : 1) Some stations are tagged as Nodes, some as Ways and some as Relations London Bridge is large area Way: http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.50426lon=-0.084887zoom=18 and is tagged as a building of type station and railway station Westminister Tube station is tagged as a Node http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.501144lon=-0.125211zoom=19 of type railway station this possibly makes sense to be a Node as its too small to be a Way.. Waterloo station is a Way http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.503282lon=-0.113125zoom=18 but this time type building station ( rather than train_station as London bridge is ) ( and also railway station ) but it's also grouped as a Relation of type site railway_station Maybe some being Nodes, Ways or Relations makes good sense, but maybe it does not... maybe all stations should be a Node ( London Bridge has no Nodes just a single Way ) and then station
Re: [Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems
I recently visited London and looked at the OSM map around London Bridge for the tube station. It was difficult to find as it appears to have the same tag as the main line station. My particular reason for looking at the map was to see where the exit/s were. What would be the correct way to map these? Thanks Dudley Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 09:45:51 + From: aidmcgin+openstreet...@gmail.com To: jameschurch...@gmail.com CC: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems Looking at your Kew Gardens tag it looks excellent with just one issue. It's correctly tagged for all 3 networks in one as National Rail;London Underground;London Overground but it does tag both stop positions on the two oposite direction tracks as railway=station which i feel should both be changed to be railway=stop or public_transport=platform and a new, single node should be railway=station for the entire station? I must have missed those station tags on the stop positions first time round, I did say I attempted to do it :)I've removed those now, and I think the station property is captured in the area represented by way 199669935 which surrounds the whole station. On 8 March 2013 23:49, James Churchman jameschurch...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Aidan, thanks for such a fast reply! Yes very messy indeed!! Great i had a good read of that link you sent along with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dstation and a few others. Reading : --- * For simple modeling of simple stations with a single track (or one in each direction) just add a node with railway=station and name=* at an appropriate point on the railway (tagged railway=rail, railway=subway etc). * For complex or larger stations it is often best to create a node within the main concourse area and use a public_transport=stop_area to associate this with the rest of the elements of the station. --- It sounds like uk tube stations that are largely underground the best thing is just a node. For larger stations there should still be a node but also but add it to a relation and additionally tag the Node as a Stop Area and along with an Area for the building=station .. but the building=station Area is not sufficient to be a station its self.. it needs a node Further down : --- * There should only be a single railway=station tag for each station. Where there are multiple nodes for a single station then consider converting the station to the area format and moving the relevant tags (including the name etc) to this area and remove the station tag from all the existing 'station' nodes. * Where a mainline station and metro station (or other railway like station) are physically connected, consider if they should be modeled as separate stations or as a single station. The associated Wikipedia article for the facilities might assist with the decision. If the facilities are run by separate organisations (for example a heritage station next to a mainline station) then it is probably better to map them using two separate railway=station tags. --- So this would indicate that only one station tag should ever be used .. Looking at your Kew Gardens tag it looks excellent with just one issue. It's correctly tagged for all 3 networks in one as National Rail;London Underground;London Overground but it does tag both stop positions on the two oposite direction tracks as railway=station which i feel should both be changed to be railway=stop or public_transport=platform and a new, single node should be railway=station for the entire station? Think i am starting to understand how it should be done :-) BR James On 8 March 2013 21:35, Aidan McGinley aidmcgin+openstreet...@gmail.com wrote: James, Seems like a bit of a mess alright. Take a look at the approved proposal for public transport which should be the standard to work towards I would think - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport I attempted to apply this to Kew Gardens station a while back (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.47707lon=-0.28496zoom=17) it's not exactly straightforward, and I'm not sure how well it would work when the station is entirely underground like much of central London. Aidan On 8 March 2013 21:05, James Churchman jameschurch...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Guys I was originally attempting to get all the London Underground Tube stations and Rail stations from OSM ( london xml file ) The issues with the data I have had are : 1) Some stations are tagged as Nodes, some as Ways and some as Relations London Bridge is large area Way: http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.50426lon=-0.084887zoom=18 and is tagged as a building of type station and railway station Westminister Tube station is tagged as a Node http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.501144lon=-0.125211zoom=19 of type railway station this possibly makes sense to be a Node
Re: [Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems
On Fri, 8 Mar 2013, James Churchman wrote: I was originally attempting to get all the London Underground Tube stations and Rail stations from OSM ( london xml file ) The issues with the data I have had are : 1) Some stations are tagged as Nodes, some as Ways and some as Relations snip 2) Stations tagged multiple times (this is a much bigger problem) ! Approximately 75 % of all London Underground Tube stations are tagged with a Node multiple times, the distribution looks like this: 0 times : e.g. London Bridge, this is only a Way there is no Node for either the Rail or Tube 1 single time : this is the rarest case and as far as I can see the correct case Borough, Farringdon, St James' Park, Westminister and a few others are the few single tagged Tube stations in London e.g Farringdon looks fine http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?mlat=51.52056mlon=-0.10504zoom=18 its a single node of railway type station and has the two networks correctly attributed to it of National Rail;London Underground. The only issue that i can see with Farringdon is as with many other tube stations it has a additional russian name name:ru of Фаррингдон What's wrong with names in different languages? 2,3,4 or even more tages for the same station .. High Street Kensington : http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.5008lon=-0.19269zoom=19 has 4 tags .. each one joined to a rail line Piccadilly Circus http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.510003lon=-0.134754zoom=18 is tagged twice ( once under a different way ) Lambeth North is again tagged twice ( once under a way ) http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.499021lon=-0.112524zoom=18 Oxford Circus Tube Station is not taged at all. but instead the 4 exits are tagged singularly as type railway and subway_entrance .. http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.515258lon=-0.141406zoom=18 though they all do seem to be grouped into a Relation of public_transport stop_area Is this level of tagging required, and would an actual station tag in the centre of these 4 entrances simply denoting the station itself be better ? ---as it is no station at all is plotted on osm.org Green Park Tube Station is similar again with no tagged station but many tagged entrances https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=safarioe=UTF-8ie=UTF-8q=green+parkfb=1gl=ukhq=green+parkcid=0,0,15806140768408957347ei=8To6UcfADM-w7AbP_oHQCAved=0CKwBEPwSMAA http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.506934lon=-0.142474zoom=18 Waterloo Station is tagged once as a large area Way, and then 5 separate times as well as Nodes detonating a station http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.50246lon=-0.11246zoom=17 they are dotted all about the place, some on lower layers, some for one train line or another .. Some times it makes sense to have two nodes though, as for Edware Road and f.e. Elephant and Castle there are really two stations (for different lines) 3 ) Also there is the issue of networks tagging .. Some stations are tagged as London Underground or National Rail as they should, but some that are both a dual are tagged with two nodes one for each rather that a single node of National Rail;London Underground for example. eg Kensington Olympia is tagged twice, once with London Overground and once with National Rail;London Underground Again, sometimes the stations are actually different. Such as West Hampstead (http://osm.org/go/euuy930F7-) Each should exist, tagged with the appropriate network. So in conclusion the problems I have found with Rail and Tube stations are : a) Tagged as Ways, Nodes or Relations; sometimes all 3, sometimes just a Node, sometimes a building Way of type station, but no Node. b) Duplicated stations: sometimes an identical tagging many many many times. Sometimes the Rail and the Tube are placed as separate stations when they should be combined, sometimes there is a Way and also a Node, sometimes there is a station for every Rail line/track that comes into the actual station c) Stations are not taged at all, but instead the exits are all tagged as an exit, that are sometimes grouped as a exit relation d) Inconsistant tagging eg some are train_station and others just station ( e) odd Russian names for many of the stations ) This is just from the ones I have looked at so far, I will look further in the mean time but asking from the OSM data the position of Rail and Tube stations in London is a very non-trivial task. Is there something missing from my understating, or does a refurbishment of the rail stations data for London needed? maybe something like every station is a single node placed at the approximate center, and then exits or station buildings are separately tagged and grouped into relations a long with the original point, and that a standard station and not the railway_station tag is chosen ? Also do these kinds of issues exist for other cities both around the uk and the data for the
Re: [Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems
Hi Aidan, yes that looks a lot better having the line stops as stop_positions rather than being stations! think it draws better on osm.org now too! Also I missed that the larger building Way 199669935 covered the station as a large area! Finally nit picking, should they be the more specific railway:stop_positions rather than public_transport:stop_positions ? :-) Hi Derick thank you very much for such a comprehensive reply! Think i am finally starting to understand some of the ( different ) methods used to tag stations that some of them may be the standard way of tagging things, that some of them are maybe used but not as the Wiki states and that maybe many are totally wrong ! I am not sure that two nodes really does make sense when both tagged as stations? Having two nodes makes sense for sure, but both tagged as stations? are they really just not different buildings, entrances, lines or platforms of the same station that are more than a small distance apart .. being two physically different building does not necessarily make them a separate station ? :-) The scheme outlined above looks a good one, although not nessisaly as per the wiki.. ( and not followed by the majority of stations in London where every one seems to have a unique pattern to it ) AFAIK, the idea was as follows: station === The whole area with buildings and platforms: - area: - railway=station - area=yes - alt_name=Edgeware Road - name=Edgware Road (Bakerloo) - or: - name=Hampstead Heath - network=London Overground - naptan:ActoCode=9f8798 ... This looks good and seems ideal, tho is not quite per the wiki.. i think the wiki still prefers a single node tagged as a railway:station for the benefit of placing the name correctly ( and maybe for the simplification of all stations having a single Node ? maybe maybe not ) station's building == - area: - building=station or If there is no station area or building: - node: - railway=station - all the tags from station This looks good too, tho not what's folowed, many single buildings are tagged as an entire railway=station with no area for stations it seems platforms = way (or area): railway=platform, ref=nr Where the train stops: - railway=halt (on the railway track itself as a node) - name=Kilburn Park - line=Bakerloo - network=London Underground looks great .. tho still not quite sure of the difference between a halt and a stop a stop_position etc.. mostly seem to be used interchangeably and in reality interchangeably with a platform etc.. station entrances = - station building entrance: building=entrance - tube: railway=subway_entrance, name=Exit nr, ref=nr This looks great.. but in most (/all) cases i have looked not followed; instead if there are multiple exits each is wrongly tagged as a station, and as often there is no single station visible in the real world (its all underground) there is then no single node for the station. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.555173lon=-0.165321zoom=20 Hampstead Heath looks excellently done from my now current understanding, with the area marked as a station ( tho i still think the wiki implies having a single node as the station :-) ) the platforms individually marked ( as platforms ) and the stops as railway:halt ( Kilburn High Road looks similarly done and good) Thanks for everybody's advice comment so far! James On 9 March 2013 14:30, Derick Rethans o...@derickrethans.nl wrote: On Fri, 8 Mar 2013, James Churchman wrote: I was originally attempting to get all the London Underground Tube stations and Rail stations from OSM ( london xml file ) The issues with the data I have had are : 1) Some stations are tagged as Nodes, some as Ways and some as Relations snip 2) Stations tagged multiple times (this is a much bigger problem) ! Approximately 75 % of all London Underground Tube stations are tagged with a Node multiple times, the distribution looks like this: 0 times : e.g. London Bridge, this is only a Way there is no Node for either the Rail or Tube 1 single time : this is the rarest case and as far as I can see the correct case Borough, Farringdon, St James' Park, Westminister and a few others are the few single tagged Tube stations in London e.g Farringdon looks fine http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?mlat=51.52056mlon=-0.10504zoom=18 its a single node of railway type station and has the two networks correctly attributed to it of National Rail;London Underground. The only issue that i can see with Farringdon is as with many other tube stations it has a additional russian name name:ru of Фаррингдон What's wrong with names in different languages? 2,3,4 or even more tages for the same station .. High Street Kensington : http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.5008lon=-0.19269zoom=19 has 4 tags .. each one joined to a rail line Piccadilly Circus
Re: [Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems
On Sat, 9 Mar 2013, James Churchman wrote: I am not sure that two nodes really does make sense when both tagged as stations? Having two nodes makes sense for sure, but both tagged as stations? are they really just not different buildings, entrances, lines or platforms of the same station that are more than a small distance apart .. being two physically different building does not necessarily make them a separate station ? :-) In the case of Edgeware Road they are really different stations, serving different lines, no underground passage and a really busy road in between. It's a bit same for the three named West Hampstead. AFAIK, the idea was as follows: station === The whole area with buildings and platforms: - area: - railway=station - area=yes - alt_name=Edgeware Road - name=Edgware Road (Bakerloo) - or: - name=Hampstead Heath - network=London Overground - naptan:ActoCode=9f8798 ... This looks good and seems ideal, tho is not quite per the wiki.. i think the wiki still prefers a single node tagged as a railway:station for the benefit of placing the name correctly ( and maybe for the simplification of all stations having a single Node ? maybe maybe not ) I don't tag for the renderer... station's building == - area: - building=station or If there is no station area or building: - node: - railway=station - all the tags from station This looks good too, tho not what's folowed, many single buildings are tagged as an entire railway=station with no area for stations it seems It's sometimes difficult to see/know if an area makes sense. For most tube stations (like the one in Kilburn) the area is exactly the station building, having an extra area then makes little sense... platforms = way (or area): railway=platform, ref=nr Where the train stops: - railway=halt (on the railway track itself as a node) - name=Kilburn Park - line=Bakerloo - network=London Underground looks great .. tho still not quite sure of the difference between a halt and a stop a stop_position etc.. mostly seem to be used interchangeably and in reality interchangeably with a platform etc.. well, platform is the physical platform. A train can't be one one (but pedestrians can). Whether it's halt, stop or stop_position I don't know. To be fair, I don't think halt is the best choice. station entrances = - station building entrance: building=entrance - tube: railway=subway_entrance, name=Exit nr, ref=nr This looks great.. but in most (/all) cases i have looked not followed; instead if there are multiple exits each is wrongly tagged as a station, and as often there is no single station visible in the real world (its all underground) there is then no single node for the station. Oxford Circus is done like this (and it wasn't me!) http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.555173lon=-0.165321zoom=20 Hampstead Heath looks excellently done from my now current understanding, with the area marked as a station It doesn't render well though... the station area should be more of a landuse pastelly colour instead of the same colour as a station building IMO. ( tho i still think the wiki implies having a single node as the station :-) ) the platforms individually marked ( as platforms ) and the stops as railway:halt ( Kilburn High Road looks similarly done and good) cheers, Derick ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems
On Sat, 2013-03-09 at 14:30 +, Derick Rethans wrote: What's wrong with names in different languages? Nothing as long as it is from a verifiable source and names should really not break the rule of 'map what we see'. Nowhere will you see Фаррингдон, what is its source? In terms of making a map useful, the place-names need to be what you can see. A map satnav telling me to follow the motorway towards The Hague, Munich or Cologne is as much use as a chocolate fireguard, it needs to direct me to use what appears on the signs. At the moment OSM works, I hope nobody ever thinks it is a good idea to actually use name.en for these cities. Some mappers have been very prolific in spreading name.ru all over the UK, the mapper who added a Russian name to Shrewsbury, also added one to Stretford, Greater Manchester. Despite driving through it, I had never heard of it. Again why does it need a Russian name? Major cities having names in other languages is one thing, but tube stations and suburbs? Phil ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems
On Sat, 2013-03-09 at 15:42 +, James Churchman wrote: looks great .. tho still not quite sure of the difference between a halt and a stop a stop_position etc.. mostly seem to be used interchangeably and in reality interchangeably with a platform etc.. I doubt there are any halts on the Underground. A halt on National Rail is one where the train only stops on request. You have to tell the guard that you want to get off there and if you want to catch a train, you put your hand out, like catching a bus. Phil ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems
Derick Rethans wrote: What's wrong with names in different languages? Names in different languages are genuine content and therefore worth tagging (e.g. Londres, Moscow). Simple transliterations aren't content, however. They're essentially just algorithmic derivatives. AFAICT the Russian names for tube stations are just simple transliterations. Though Vauxhall might be the exception in the Russian case... cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/London-Tube-Tagging-Problems-tp5752482p5752575.html Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems
Hi Guys I was originally attempting to get all the London Underground Tube stations and Rail stations from OSM ( london xml file ) The issues with the data I have had are : 1) Some stations are tagged as Nodes, some as Ways and some as Relations London Bridge is large area Way: http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.50426lon=-0.084887zoom=18 and is tagged as a building of type station and railway station Westminister Tube station is tagged as a Node http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.501144lon=-0.125211zoom=19 of type railway station this possibly makes sense to be a Node as its too small to be a Way.. Waterloo station is a Way http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.503282lon=-0.113125zoom=18 but this time type building station ( rather than train_station as London bridge is ) ( and also railway station ) but it's also grouped as a Relation of type site railway_station Maybe some being Nodes, Ways or Relations makes good sense, but maybe it does not... maybe all stations should be a Node ( London Bridge has no Nodes just a single Way ) and then station buildings should just be buildings.. that would at least be more consistant .. the buildings could always be put into a Relation with the Node if needed ? Also types of train_station and station etc... should this not be standardised? 2) Stations tagged multiple times (this is a much bigger problem) ! Approximately 75 % of all London Underground Tube stations are tagged with a Node multiple times, the distribution looks like this: 0 times : e.g. London Bridge, this is only a Way there is no Node for either the Rail or Tube 1 single time : this is the rarest case and as far as I can see the correct case Borough, Farringdon, St James' Park, Westminister and a few others are the few single tagged Tube stations in London e.g Farringdon looks fine http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?mlat=51.52056mlon=-0.10504zoom=18 its a single node of railway type station and has the two networks correctly attributed to it of National Rail;London Underground. The only issue that i can see with Farringdon is as with many other tube stations it has a additional russian name name:ru of Фаррингдон 2,3,4 or even more tages for the same station .. High Street Kensington : http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.5008lon=-0.19269zoom=19 has 4 tags .. each one joined to a rail line Piccadilly Circus http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.510003lon=-0.134754zoom=18 is tagged twice ( once under a different way ) Lambeth North is again tagged twice ( once under a way ) http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.499021lon=-0.112524zoom=18 Oxford Circus Tube Station is not taged at all. but instead the 4 exits are tagged singularly as type railway and subway_entrance .. http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.515258lon=-0.141406zoom=18 though they all do seem to be grouped into a Relation of public_transport stop_area Is this level of tagging required, and would an actual station tag in the centre of these 4 entrances simply denoting the station itself be better ? ---as it is no station at all is plotted on osm.org Green Park Tube Station is similar again with no tagged station but many tagged entrances https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=safarioe=UTF-8ie=UTF-8q=green+parkfb=1gl=ukhq=green+parkcid=0,0,15806140768408957347ei=8To6UcfADM-w7AbP_oHQCAved=0CKwBEPwSMAA http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.506934lon=-0.142474zoom=18 Waterloo Station is tagged once as a large area Way, and then 5 separate times as well as Nodes detonating a station http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.50246lon=-0.11246zoom=17 they are dotted all about the place, some on lower layers, some for one train line or another .. 3 ) Also there is the issue of networks tagging .. Some stations are tagged as London Underground or National Rail as they should, but some that are both a dual are tagged with two nodes one for each rather that a single node of National Rail;London Underground for example. eg Kensington Olympia is tagged twice, once with London Overground and once with National Rail;London Underground So in conclusion the problems I have found with Rail and Tube stations are : a) Tagged as Ways, Nodes or Relations; sometimes all 3, sometimes just a Node, sometimes a building Way of type station, but no Node. b) Duplicated stations: sometimes an identical tagging many many many times. Sometimes the Rail and the Tube are placed as separate stations when they should be combined, sometimes there is a Way and also a Node, sometimes there is a station for every Rail line/track that comes into the actual station c) Stations are not taged at all, but instead the exits are all tagged as an exit, that are sometimes grouped as a exit relation d) Inconsistant tagging eg some are train_station and others just station ( e) odd Russian names for many of the stations ) This is just from the ones I have looked at so far, I will look further in the mean time but asking from
Re: [Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems
James, Seems like a bit of a mess alright. Take a look at the approved proposal for public transport which should be the standard to work towards I would think - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport I attempted to apply this to Kew Gardens station a while back ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.47707lon=-0.28496zoom=17) it's not exactly straightforward, and I'm not sure how well it would work when the station is entirely underground like much of central London. Aidan On 8 March 2013 21:05, James Churchman jameschurch...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Guys I was originally attempting to get all the London Underground Tube stations and Rail stations from OSM ( london xml file ) The issues with the data I have had are : 1) Some stations are tagged as Nodes, some as Ways and some as Relations London Bridge is large area Way: http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.50426lon=-0.084887zoom=18 and is tagged as a building of type station and railway station Westminister Tube station is tagged as a Node http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.501144lon=-0.125211zoom=19 of type railway station this possibly makes sense to be a Node as its too small to be a Way.. Waterloo station is a Way http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.503282lon=-0.113125zoom=18 but this time type building station ( rather than train_station as London bridge is ) ( and also railway station ) but it's also grouped as a Relation of type site railway_station Maybe some being Nodes, Ways or Relations makes good sense, but maybe it does not... maybe all stations should be a Node ( London Bridge has no Nodes just a single Way ) and then station buildings should just be buildings.. that would at least be more consistant .. the buildings could always be put into a Relation with the Node if needed ? Also types of train_station and station etc... should this not be standardised? 2) Stations tagged multiple times (this is a much bigger problem) ! Approximately 75 % of all London Underground Tube stations are tagged with a Node multiple times, the distribution looks like this: 0 times : e.g. London Bridge, this is only a Way there is no Node for either the Rail or Tube 1 single time : this is the rarest case and as far as I can see the correct case Borough, Farringdon, St James' Park, Westminister and a few others are the few single tagged Tube stations in London e.g Farringdon looks fine http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?mlat=51.52056mlon=-0.10504zoom=18 its a single node of railway type station and has the two networks correctly attributed to it of National Rail;London Underground. The only issue that i can see with Farringdon is as with many other tube stations it has a additional russian name name:ru of Фаррингдон 2,3,4 or even more tages for the same station .. High Street Kensington : http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.5008lon=-0.19269zoom=19 has 4 tags .. each one joined to a rail line Piccadilly Circus http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.510003lon=-0.134754zoom=18 is tagged twice ( once under a different way ) Lambeth North is again tagged twice ( once under a way ) http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.499021lon=-0.112524zoom=18 Oxford Circus Tube Station is not taged at all. but instead the 4 exits are tagged singularly as type railway and subway_entrance .. http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.515258lon=-0.141406zoom=18 though they all do seem to be grouped into a Relation of public_transport stop_area Is this level of tagging required, and would an actual station tag in the centre of these 4 entrances simply denoting the station itself be better ? ---as it is no station at all is plotted on osm.org Green Park Tube Station is similar again with no tagged station but many tagged entrances https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=safarioe=UTF-8ie=UTF-8q=green+parkfb=1gl=ukhq=green+parkcid=0,0,15806140768408957347ei=8To6UcfADM-w7AbP_oHQCAved=0CKwBEPwSMAA http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.506934lon=-0.142474zoom=18 Waterloo Station is tagged once as a large area Way, and then 5 separate times as well as Nodes detonating a station http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.50246lon=-0.11246zoom=17 they are dotted all about the place, some on lower layers, some for one train line or another .. 3 ) Also there is the issue of networks tagging .. Some stations are tagged as London Underground or National Rail as they should, but some that are both a dual are tagged with two nodes one for each rather that a single node of National Rail;London Underground for example. eg Kensington Olympia is tagged twice, once with London Overground and once with National Rail;London Underground So in conclusion the problems I have found with Rail and Tube stations are : a) Tagged as Ways, Nodes or Relations; sometimes all 3, sometimes just a Node, sometimes a building Way of type station, but no Node. b)
Re: [Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems
Hi Aidan, thanks for such a fast reply! Yes very messy indeed!! Great i had a good read of that link you sent along with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dstation and a few others. Reading : --- * For simple modeling of simple stations with a single track (or one in each direction) just add a node with railway=station and name=* at an appropriate point on the railway (tagged railway=rail, railway=subway etc). * For complex or larger stations it is often best to create a node within the main concourse area and use a public_transport=stop_area to associate this with the rest of the elements of the station. --- It sounds like uk tube stations that are largely underground the best thing is just a node. For larger stations there should still be a node but also but add it to a relation and additionally tag the Node as a Stop Area and along with an Area for the building=station .. but the building=station Area is not sufficient to be a station its self.. it needs a node Further down : --- * There should only be a single railway=station tag for each station. Where there are multiple nodes for a single station then consider converting the station to the area format and moving the relevant tags (including the name etc) to this area and remove the station tag from all the existing 'station' nodes. * Where a mainline station and metro station (or other railway like station) are physically connected, consider if they should be modeled as separate stations or as a single station. The associated Wikipedia article for the facilities might assist with the decision. If the facilities are run by separate organisations (for example a heritage station next to a mainline station) then it is probably better to map them using two separate railway=station tags. --- So this would indicate that only one station tag should ever be used .. Looking at your Kew Gardens tag it looks excellent with just one issue. It's correctly tagged for all 3 networks in one as National Rail;London Underground;London Overground but it does tag both stop positions on the two oposite direction tracks as railway=station which i feel should both be changed to be railway=stop or public_transport=platform and a new, single node should be railway=station for the entire station? Think i am starting to understand how it should be done :-) BR James On 8 March 2013 21:35, Aidan McGinley aidmcgin+openstreet...@gmail.com wrote: James, Seems like a bit of a mess alright. Take a look at the approved proposal for public transport which should be the standard to work towards I would think - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport I attempted to apply this to Kew Gardens station a while back (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.47707lon=-0.28496zoom=17) it's not exactly straightforward, and I'm not sure how well it would work when the station is entirely underground like much of central London. Aidan On 8 March 2013 21:05, James Churchman jameschurch...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Guys I was originally attempting to get all the London Underground Tube stations and Rail stations from OSM ( london xml file ) The issues with the data I have had are : 1) Some stations are tagged as Nodes, some as Ways and some as Relations London Bridge is large area Way: http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.50426lon=-0.084887zoom=18 and is tagged as a building of type station and railway station Westminister Tube station is tagged as a Node http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.501144lon=-0.125211zoom=19 of type railway station this possibly makes sense to be a Node as its too small to be a Way.. Waterloo station is a Way http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.503282lon=-0.113125zoom=18 but this time type building station ( rather than train_station as London bridge is ) ( and also railway station ) but it's also grouped as a Relation of type site railway_station Maybe some being Nodes, Ways or Relations makes good sense, but maybe it does not... maybe all stations should be a Node ( London Bridge has no Nodes just a single Way ) and then station buildings should just be buildings.. that would at least be more consistant .. the buildings could always be put into a Relation with the Node if needed ? Also types of train_station and station etc... should this not be standardised? 2) Stations tagged multiple times (this is a much bigger problem) ! Approximately 75 % of all London Underground Tube stations are tagged with a Node multiple times, the distribution looks like this: 0 times : e.g. London Bridge, this is only a Way there is no Node for either the Rail or Tube 1 single time : this is the rarest case and as far as I can see the correct case Borough, Farringdon, St James' Park, Westminister and a few others are the few single tagged Tube stations in London e.g Farringdon looks fine http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?mlat=51.52056mlon=-0.10504zoom=18 its a
