Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Railway route relations
Route Codes were used on the Southern, and provision was also made for them to appear on the front of Turbos and Networkers, though it wasn't much used (and very little north of the Thames). Each route code in theory tells you the stopping pattern. None of the current operators is very keen on using them, though fashions change. The London Bridge cognoscenti know them, but the general view is that they aren't very user-friendly, and London Underground style platform screens are preferred. Timetable numbers are maintained by Network Rail, largely at their discretion, and generally cover more than one service. Not all that many people use the national timetable, especially since they stopped printing it (more use pocket timetables published by the operators, and even more use journey planners). The number isn't really helpful unless you want to find something in the big book. If we use the operator code in relations, it won't be too hard to change when it transfers. We should probably try to set up a separate service (line) relation for each service (and for each direction), just the same as buses, but we'll have to give them names based on the origin/destination, and maybe not give them a ref for the moment. Network Rail is the operator of the Network, not of trains (at least, not passenger trains). The same distinction occurs in every European country (though the distinction is a bit theoretical in some). Richard On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Peter Childs wrote: > Forgive me for asking. > > How does the "Route Code" relate to the number on the front of the Train. > eg > > Charing Cross to Gillingham via Lewisham has a 62 on the front but if > it goes via Greenwich its 85 (I think) > > Does the number on the front of the time-table mean anything? > > Oh and the Routes listed on the Wiki do not seam to bare any > resemblance to what the operators tell you. > > ie "North Kent Line" to most people is all lines that go from London > to Gillingham via Dartford, ie Via Sidcup (Darford Loop", Bexleyheath, > and Woolwich and also includes the Victoria to Dartford via Lewisham > service ie all trains in South Eastern Time Table 5. > > I'm also thinking that we have two sets of operators ie Network Rail > and the Franchise Operators, and if we are tagging with the Franchise > Operators maybe we should use the name of the franchise rather than > the current holder. > > Or What? > > Peter. > (Slightly confused) > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Railway route relations
Forgive me for asking. How does the "Route Code" relate to the number on the front of the Train. eg Charing Cross to Gillingham via Lewisham has a 62 on the front but if it goes via Greenwich its 85 (I think) Does the number on the front of the time-table mean anything? Oh and the Routes listed on the Wiki do not seam to bare any resemblance to what the operators tell you. ie "North Kent Line" to most people is all lines that go from London to Gillingham via Dartford, ie Via Sidcup (Darford Loop", Bexleyheath, and Woolwich and also includes the Victoria to Dartford via Lewisham service ie all trains in South Eastern Time Table 5. I'm also thinking that we have two sets of operators ie Network Rail and the Franchise Operators, and if we are tagging with the Franchise Operators maybe we should use the name of the franchise rather than the current holder. Or What? Peter. (Slightly confused) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Railway route relations
Looks like the routes that show up on oepnv-karte in Germany are the services (aka lines, eg S-bahn and RE). Which is more likely to be useful than the Strategic Route codes (let alone SRSs), surely??? We don't have service codes (well we do actually, but not anything that would mean anything to the wider public), so I'm not sure what we could meaningfully record other than the operator codes (maybe split in 3 in the case of FGW & NXEA, to represent LDHS, L&SE and Regional). The platform rendering is "interesting" (look at Koeln Hbf), and shows up why you need separate relations for each direction, and separate tracks drawn for each platform if you're going to that level of detail. And it won't work where services (lines) don't use consistent platforms. The S-bahn uses platforms 10/11 (not as shown between 9 and 10). Richard On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Peter Miller wrote: > > --- Cross posted from Talk West Midlands > > On 1 Jul 2009, at 19:39, Brian Prangle wrote: > > Hi everyone > > I've added a railway relation for the West Coast Mainline as it runs > thoruh New Street - so far I've got as far from Rugby Junction to Sandwell & > Dudley station. I've named it as Strategic Route 17 Primary- SRs are what > Network Rail use to label their network. The West Midlands is Route 17. The > problem is ALL the railway tracks in the WM are Route 17 and are > differentiated into primary, secondary, rural and freight - so I'm not too > sure how to proceed in classification afte I've competed the WCML through to > Wolverhampton. I've done this mainly to see the rail routes renderd in the > opnvkarte public transport map. Relation No is 164889 Tagging is as follows > > > > > > > > > You can see the full document from Network Rail at : > > http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browsedocuments/StrategicBusinessPlan/RoutePlans/2007/R17 > - West Mids > > > ITO also have someone working on this nationally and he has a useful wiki > on his OSM user page at: > > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:JossSmithson/UK_railways > > > We were about to move this article to the main wiki at a new URL and ask > for community help completing it so thanks for making a > start! When it is more populated I suggest that we replace the current UK > railway article with it. > > In order to stop the relations getting too big for the very long rail > routes should the ways be first aggregated into SRS sections and then these > relations be grouped into a relation for the whole route? Fyi, there are > articles on Wikipedia with SRS details for some, but not all routes. To be > super safe about copyright of sources in OSM I suggest that we first add the > SRS details into Wikipedia (referenced back to Network Rail) and then build > the OSM data from Wikipedia. > > The rail route tables in Wikipedia is here. Red links need to be created! > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Rail#Route_plans > > > Regards, > > > Peter > > > Anyone else want to help? I think the first task is to agree probably via > talktransit on how we should tag the relations for Route 17and maybe use > that as a template. I've not added ref=17 yet but that's trivial to > implement, if we agree that's how we want to go. For instance Route 17 > covers the physical infrastructure but how do we ( do we want to?) add > relations for the passenger operators ( e.g Virgin and London Midland (and > the new operator from Shrewsbury) as they run services over the same tracks > just like bus operators on roads. Can the folks at opnvkarte ( who have the > luxury of just DeutscheBahn running trains in Germany) cope with multiple > operators? > > btw route 17 not rendered yet on opnvkarte > > Also railway platforms are now rendered so here's your chance to survey > them! > > Regards > > Brian > ___ > Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list > talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands > > > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
