BUG: Advanced filtering fails
Using TB 1.46 Beta/5 I'm currently viewing my Bat Lists folder. The selection just happens to be at the end of the list, which just happens to be a message from: Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 18:31:01 -0700 From: Januk Aggarwal [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This isn't important by the way - the same happens whatever message I have selected - I just mention it to identify the results. I want to display only those messages from RIT themselves, so I choose View-Display-Advanced Filtering... All flags are initially turned off (I double check this), so I switch to Header, and select "The sender's name" "Contains" either "ritlabs" or "ritlabs.com" (same effect on either). When I hit OK, there is a single message displayed: a message from Januk Aggarwal [EMAIL PROTECTED], Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Hmm. I escape out, search for the last message from Stefan and Alt-Click his name. The drill-down shows about 180 other messages, all sent from [EMAIL PROTECTED] None of these were shown by the filter I tried to apply, and the one message that was shown in no way mentioned ritlabs in any of the Sender fields. John -- you gave me something that i could touch in a world where i'd had too much something i could feel with my broken hands full of lost ideals but soon i'm returning to you my friend and we'll go where the rivers end in the silver sea and i'll carry you if you carry me -- -- View the TBBETA archive at http://tbbeta.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBBETA, double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: BUG: Advanced filtering fails
On Sat, 9 Sep 2000 13:28:03 +0100, John Sullivan wrote: JS This isn't important by the way - the same happens whatever message I JS have selected - I just mention it to identify the results. JS I want to display only those messages from RIT themselves, so I choose View-Display-Advanced Filtering... All flags are initially turned JS off (I double check this), so I switch to Header, and select "The JS sender's name" "Contains" either "ritlabs" or "ritlabs.com" (same JS effect on either). JS When I hit OK, there is a single message displayed: a message from JS Januk Aggarwal [EMAIL PROTECTED], Message-ID: JS [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Hmm. JS I escape out, search for the last message from Stefan and Alt-Click JS his name. The drill-down shows about 180 other messages, all sent from JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] None of these were shown by the filter I tried to JS apply, and the one message that was shown in no way mentioned ritlabs JS in any of the Sender fields. As far as I can see here, the display (advanced message filtering) uses the info that's displayed in the message listing. IOW's, if a message is from Stefan Tanurkov [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Stefan Tanurkov will be displayed in the message list and this is all that you'll be able to use in the advanced filtering. It seems to filter the message list and not the messages. This is why it's so *quick*. If you need to do the type of search you desire you have to use the formal search applet. Redo the search and this time look for messages with the sender name containing 'stefan' and you should have your list. If I stick to this concept of using strings that only occur in the message list then it works everytime. :-) It's the same with the quick search and the alt-click listing. If there is no match when the filtering is done, only the last message in the list is displayed. This is a bug, IMHO, because it confuses the user into thinking that it's a match. -- A. Curtis Martin.. Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA | PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937 PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey --- ** "Constant change is here to stay. " Using TB! v1.46 Beta/5 «» Win2k Pro SP1 -- -- View the TBBETA archive at http://tbbeta.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBBETA, double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: BUG: Advanced filtering fails
On Saturday 9 September 2000 A . Curtis Martin wrote: IOW's, if a message is from Stefan Tanurkov [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Stefan Tanurkov will be displayed in the message list and this is all that you'll be able to use in the advanced filtering. It seems to filter the message list and not the messages. This is why it's so *quick*. There's no reason why the full sender/recipient information shouldn't be available to searches, with no noticeable loss in speed. (We're talking about header information, not the mesage body which I agree could slow it down considerably.) And this also fails to address the fact that a single message remains visible, that in no way at all satisfies the filter criteria! John -- you gave me something that i could touch in a world where i'd had too much something i could feel with my broken hands full of lost ideals but soon i'm returning to you my friend and we'll go where the rivers end in the silver sea and i'll carry you if you carry me -- -- View the TBBETA archive at http://tbbeta.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBBETA, double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: BUG: Advanced filtering fails
On Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:19:50 +0100, John Sullivan wrote: IOW's, if a message is from Stefan Tanurkov [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Stefan Tanurkov will be displayed in the message list and this is all that you'll be able to use in the advanced filtering. It seems to filter the message list and not the messages. This is why it's so *quick*. JS There's no reason why the full sender/recipient information JS shouldn't be available to searches, with no noticeable loss in JS speed. (We're talking about header information, not the mesage body JS which I agree could slow it down considerably.) You mentioned that it fails to work. I'm clearing this up by indicating that it *does* work once you know what it really does. How it is implemented to work is a different matter. I personally have no problem with how it works at present, since the formal search applet is pretty much there for you to use as well and it supports full header and whatever searching that you like. It will display the results in a message list fashion etc. It is in fact consistent behaviour if you ask me. Among the *message list* display options is an advanced display filtering option which intuitively implies that it's filtering strings in the message list display. I personally didn't expect it to work otherwise. I guess the developers and I are on the same wavelength. shrug JS And this also fails to address the fact that a single message JS remains visible, that in no way at all satisfies the filter JS criteria! Well, I did say that I considered that to be a bug. :-) See: ACM If there is no match when the filtering is done, only the last ACM message in the list is displayed. This is a bug, IMHO, because it ACM confuses the user into thinking that it's a match. -- A. Curtis Martin.. Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA | PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937 PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey --- ** "Hard work must have killed someone! " Using TB! v1.46 Beta/5 «» Win2k Pro SP1 -- -- View the TBBETA archive at http://tbbeta.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBBETA, double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: BUG: Advanced filtering fails
On Sat, 9 Sep 2000 07:44:36 -0700, Ming-Li wrote: ML To achieve this, the information has been pulled from the headers of ML individual messages to form a virtual database (table). Information ML not available in this virtual database (e.g., message id) can't be ML used in a display filter. Since only the "real name" part of the ML sender is displayed in the message list (and exists in the virtual ML database), it's not possible to filter messages based on the email ML address part. Trying to go through the headers of all messages would ML indeed slow down the process. More importantly, trying to do that ML would make the display filter function identical to the Search tool, ML which doesn't make sense. Agreed. ML You may, however, suggest RIT to include the email address part in ML the message list virtual database, so it can be used in display ML filters. Why? Hit F7 and the search tool is there in front of you. It opens with the appropriate folder already selected for the search. Just tick sender and type in the string and you're done. Hit Esc just like with the main window to get rid of the display. ML Of course, others may want to suggest other header fields to be ML included as well. It would ultimately be up to RIT to decide what to ML include and what to leave out, trying to strike the best balance ML between memory usage, speed, convenience, and flexibility. I'm glad ML it's not my job. :) I really don't see the point in mirroring a function that's already there. If it was more convenient I'd agree but it really isn't. The advanced filtering is placed among the message list display choices for a reason. Because it only searches for strings in the message list. The 'quick search' does this as well. And this also fails to address the fact that a single message remains visible, that in no way at all satisfies the filter criteria! ML I think Curtis has made it clear that (he thinks, and I agree) it's ML a bug. Yup! ;-) -- A. Curtis Martin.. Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA | PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937 PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey --- ** "An error? Impossible! My modem is error correcting. " Using TB! v1.46 Beta/5 «» Win2k Pro SP1 -- -- View the TBBETA archive at http://tbbeta.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBBETA, double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: BUG: Advanced filtering fails
On Saturday 9 September 2000 A . Curtis Martin wrote: You mentioned that it fails to work. I'm clearing this up by indicating that it *does* work once you know what it really does. How it is implemented to work is a different matter. Ah well, as we both seem to agree, even when you know what it really does, it doesn't actually work! ;-) I personally have no problem with how it works at present, since the formal search applet is pretty much there for you to use as well and it supports full header and whatever searching that you like. It will display the results in a message list fashion etc. The problem here is that I might actually want a drill down in the current view, not an external search. (Picky, picky, I know.) The full search is also noticeably slower (even on a single folder) - there is a significant difference between searching the whole message base, and searching an index of it. This is of course why indexes are implemented. But I think the full addressing information ought to be indexed, rather than just the display-name. I think that's a fairly minimal extra amount of information to index (I can't say for sure, but I suspect it actually *is* indexed already, just not checked in the filter), nowhere near equivalent to allowing arbitrary searches (equivalent to the full search window) in the filter. It is in fact consistent behaviour if you ask me. Among the *message list* display options is an advanced display filtering option which intuitively implies that it's filtering strings in the message list display. I personally didn't expect it to work otherwise. I guess the developers and I are on the same wavelength. shrug I should point out that I too am a developer, and do understand the issues involved. However I don't believe the current behaviour of this feature is as intuitive as you seem to think. Think about what you're actually trying to achieve by Alt-Clicking on one of the address columns. Not what you expect, within your experience, a computer program to do, but what you really want it to do. (Within my experience it could do anything right up to making dragons fly out of your nose. Do you think that's too cynical?) What I want is to drill down to all messages from that one person. I don't care how they've chosen their display-name today, many people seem to change theirs on a daily basis. If your TB archives go back far enough, look at some of Max's posts - he changed his display name from "Max Masyutin" to "Maxim Masiutin" sometime around March. It's more accurate in this case to determine equivalence by the email address rather than display name. So the current rule is: * Messages are equivalent if the senders' display-names are the same. I'd like to extend that to: * Messages are *also* equivalent if the display-names differ, but the email addresses are the same. That really would be too hard to implement, and I think would have minimal impact on performance, but a great improvement in usability. Of course, some people have several email addresses which they use from time to time. So I'd also like to see: * Messages are *also* equivalent if the display-names and/or email addresses differ, but the selected person is in my address book, and the two email addresses are both listed as alternative addresses for that person. Again, that should be much faster than a full trawl through the message base (which is slowed down mainly by the sheer volume of data to get through - my message base is currently at 230Mb) but a little less easy to implement. I'd be temporarily satisfied if the second point was implemented. If you think that's demanding, then I can still raise the bar: the address book matching should include wildcards/regexps, for those with virtual mailbox support. *@kanargh.force9.co.uk are (mostly) equivalent, and one host I know allows its users to use [EMAIL PROTECTED] so they can filter based on "keywords". (Of course, you'd want to be able to turn these off, for those rare times when you really want to search on *this* string and nothing but *this* string.) There is a similar philosophy already behind the Subject column - TB tries to strip out Re:, Re[n]:, Fwd:, because it knows that if the subject texts are the same apart from these bits, two messages do have the same subject. JS And this also fails to address the fact that a single message JS remains visible, that in no way at all satisfies the filter JS criteria! Well, I did say that I considered that to be a bug. :-) See: ACM If there is no match when the filtering is done, only the last ACM message in the list is displayed. This is a bug, IMHO, because it ACM confuses the user into thinking that it's a match. Sorry, missed that the first time round. Guess I was too quick to the trigger. John -- you gave me something that i could touch in a world where i'd had too much something i could feel with my broken hands full of lost ideals but soon i'm returning
Re: BUG: Advanced filtering fails
On Sat, 9 Sep 2000 18:57:09 +0100, John Sullivan wrote: JS Think about what you're actually trying to achieve by Alt-Clicking on JS one of the address columns. Not what you expect, within your JS experience, a computer program to do, but what you really want it to JS do. (Within my experience it could do anything right up to making JS dragons fly out of your nose. Do you think that's too cynical?) Yes. The introduction of sarcasm of this nature illustrates a certain level of disregard and lack of respect for what I may think. I have read your opinion and it's duly noted. Let's drop this shall we? I have no desire to further to discuss this if this is what is happening. I felt the beginnings of it a long time before. -- A. Curtis Martin.. Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA | PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937 PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey --- ** "The meek shall inherit the earth, if that's OK with you " Using TB! v1.46 Beta/5 «» Win2k Pro SP1 -- -- View the TBBETA archive at http://tbbeta.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBBETA, double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: BUG: Advanced filtering fails
On Saturday, September 09, 2000, 8:33:23 AM, A. wrote: ML You may, however, suggest RIT to include the email address part ML in the message list virtual database, so it can be used in ML display filters. Why? Hit F7 and the search tool is there in front of you. It opens with the appropriate folder already selected for the search. Just tick sender and type in the string and you're done. Hit Esc just like with the main window to get rid of the display. I'm as content as you are with TB's current implementation in this regard, I merely told John should he really want that feature, he could send a request to RIT, which is a given right for each TB user, though it's another matter whether RIT would implement it. Moreover, which header fields or message attributes should be available in the message list, and hence available as display filter criteria, are basically a matter of preference. The search tool could find anything for you, but it doesn't prevent you from using the quick search, display filter, and alt-clicking, does it? While I have no complaint about TB's current selection, I see no commanding reason to argue that sender's email address shouldn't be included in this group, either. ML Of course, others may want to suggest other header fields to be ML included as well. It would ultimately be up to RIT to decide what to ML include and what to leave out, trying to strike the best balance ML between memory usage, speed, convenience, and flexibility. I'm glad ML it's not my job. :) I really don't see the point in mirroring a function that's already there. If it was more convenient I'd agree but it really isn't. The advanced filtering is placed among the message list display choices for a reason. Because it only searches for strings in the message list. The 'quick search' does this as well. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough (I thought I did). I agree that display filters only search for strings in the message list for good reason, and I wasn't suggesting anything otherwise. I merely stated that it's conceivable for RIT to add one more message list column (sender's email address), and consequently put it in the display filter. -- Best regards, Ming-Li The Bat! 1.46 Beta/5 | Win2k SP1 -- -- View the TBBETA archive at http://tbbeta.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBBETA, double-click HERE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
