Re: IMAP fixes
Guten Tag Maxim Masiutin, That means if no one comments on a bug for a certain time you consider it fixed? Odd. Shall we add comments for all unfixed bugs after each version that is released? At least once in 3 months would be helpful. This statement is so hilarious that any comment would be a waste. No wonder TheBat is getting nowhere with an developer's attitude like that. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Alto Speckhardt mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpLoz4u5cHox.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: IMAP fixes
Hello Alto, Friday, April 13, 2007, 12:48:57 PM, you wrote: AS This statement is so hilarious that any comment would be a waste. AS No wonder TheBat is getting nowhere with an developer's attitude like that. This reaction deserves a prominent place in the gallery of unintentional (unintented?) contradictions. :-) -- Best Wishes, Mark using The Bat! Version 3.98.11 MyMacros 1.11a zOmbie's Macros Version 0.7 Windows 2000 Professional/5.0 build 2195 Service Pack 4 (0 days 4:33:58) on Uno AMD Duron Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: IMAP fixes
On Thursday, April 12, 2007, 1:13:15 PM, Vili wrote: I don't know about the POP part any more, since I no longer use it except on rare occasions for some special reason, but I disagree with your negative assessment of IMAP. It may not be perfect, and there are a few things about Outlook which I am forced to use some at work because of interfacing with other software, but I find it quite usable, and preferable to any other options I tried. You are one of the lucky ones. I can not use TheBat's IMAP. It just does not work. The count's are always wrong, it hangs trying to sync up and it only seems to work when I first bring it up from a re-boot. Then it works for a few minutes. However, as soon as I read a few emails and deleted some, it starts to slow down then just quits working. I have commented on a few of the bugs but gave up on the release because it seems like they never work on these issues. I for one will not pay for another release to see if they fixed the bugs. Another person commented here that outlook, netscape and other email clients all seem to work fine with IMAP. -- Best regards, Joe Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: IMAP fixes
--On Friday, April 13, 2007 6:04 AM, Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have commented on a few of the bugs but gave up on the release because it seems like they never work on these issues. Hey, but at least they gave us new emoticons. That's... uh... good, isn't it? I for one will not pay for another release to see if they fixed the bugs. Another person commented here that outlook, netscape and other email clients all seem to work fine with IMAP. Neither will I. When I saw Maxim's comment that they're holding off until the next version to fix IMAP bugs because fixing them would break too many other parts of the application (hey, guys, ever heard of something called encapsulation?), I decided that this was it for me for The Bat!. Cyrus will be releasing the Mulberry source code into the wild soon so I plan on building my own mail application around it. I had to build my own feed reader since I couldn't find one that I liked well enough so I guess I'll do the same for this. That's too bad because The Bat! has so much potential to be the best but the developers just refuse to let it get there. -- :R. pgpiaRdxApghN.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: IMAP fixes
Hello Randy, Friday, April 13, 2007, 16:55:24, you wrote: When I saw Maxim's comment that they're holding off until the next version to fix IMAP bugs because fixing them would break too many other parts of the application (hey, guys, ever heard of something called encapsulation?), I decided that this was it for me for The Bat!. I didn't write about IMAP, I wrote about the bug https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=235 As about IMAP, we will be fixing it. -- Best regards, Maxim Masiutinmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: IMAP fixes
except on rare occasions for some special reason, but I disagree with your negative assessment of IMAP. It may not be perfect, and In professional environment it is not reliable, that is the right term. Joe and Randy already explained it with more words. I REALLY like TB!, not just because I am selling it. I started to use it way before I started to sell it. Also, keep in mind that here at beta we are somewhat professional users of TB. Simple users dont want to hassle with bugs. For them it is a binary decision: works or not. -- Vili Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: IMAP fixes
On Friday, April 13, 2007, 11:25:03 AM, Vili wrote: In professional environment it is not reliable, that is the right term. Joe and Randy already explained it with more words. I have found it very reliable. In a professional environment. I am sorry that it does not treat deleted mails differently, but lately I can't even say that I have noticed count problems. I haven't seen any lost mails. I use a local outbox, and have since the beginning so I have no idea whether there is a problem with the server side outbox. I don't have crashes, I don't have any shutdowns, resource hogging. I am a a heavy user, right now I have 8 or ten programs running and I so there are plenty of chances for problems if software has conflicts or large appetites for resources. My current usage at fastmail is 372m/600m volume of mail. I try to keep usage trimmed down so I regularly archive mail from IMAP to a dummy account in TB! Bandwidth usage is always minimal. I'd say that I am very pleased with my IMAP experience with TB! I do all my filtering server side, so I no longer am making any use of what was in my eyes always TB!s strongest feature. -- Dwight A. Corrin 928 S Broadway Wichita KS 67211 316.303.1411 fax 316.265.7568 dcorrin at fastmail.fm Using IMAP with The Bat! 3.98.10 on Windows XP version 5,1 Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
IMAP fixes
Hello Vilius, Thursday, April 12, 2007, 15:37:29, you wrote: Indeed. I want IMAP fixes! Please add comments to the IMAP bug at the bugtracking server. If you add comments to the bugs, than we will see that the bugs still exist and can be reproduces, i.e. they are still wanted to be fixed. Somebody have posted here the list of URLs of IMAP bugs at the bugtracker. We would be grateful if you add comments the bugs mentioned in this TBBETA message. -- Best regards, Maxim Masiutinmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: IMAP fixes
Indeed. I want IMAP fixes! Please add comments to the IMAP bug at the bugtracking server. If you add comments to the bugs, than we will see that the bugs still exist and can be reproduces, i.e. they are still wanted to be fixed. Somebody have posted here the list of URLs of IMAP bugs at the bugtracker. We would be grateful if you add comments the bugs mentioned in this TBBETA message. As all bug is described in details, you should go thru them and check. We cant go thru all the bugs all the time and see if they are fixed or not... YOU (the developer) should make up a list of IMAP issues and not touch ANY other part of the program. Sometimes I feel that you take off a band-aid from one part of the program and put on another part. It starts to bleed at another -for me at least- totally not understandable parts... Or an old bug just surfaces again... Ok, it is just my opinion. -- Vili Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: IMAP fixes
Vili, Indeed. I want IMAP fixes! Please add comments to the IMAP bug at the bugtracking server. If you add comments to the bugs, than we will see that the bugs still exist and can be reproduces, i.e. they are still wanted to be fixed. Somebody have posted here the list of URLs of IMAP bugs at the bugtracker. We would be grateful if you add comments the bugs mentioned in this TBBETA message. As all bug is described in details, you should go thru them and check. We cant go thru all the bugs all the time and see if they are fixed or not... YOU (the developer) should make up a list of IMAP issues and not touch ANY other part of the program. Sometimes I feel that you take off a band-aid from one part of the program and put on another part. It starts to bleed at another -for me at least- totally not understandable parts... Or an old bug just surfaces again... Ok, it is just my opinion. I think part of the problem is that they are unable to duplicate a lot of these problems. Devilishly hard to fix that kind of problem. Even harder to know it you actually fixed it without confirmation. -- Gleason Using 3.98.11 on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: IMAP fixes
Hello Vili, Thursday, April 12, 2007, 17:44:33, you wrote: Sometimes I feel that you take off a band-aid from one part of the program and put on another part. It starts to bleed at another -for me at least- totally not understandable parts... If you speak about IMAP, it didn't get worse since the initial release in 2.0. Some things we are fixing, some we cannot at the moment, but the program is not getting worse. If you tell about long-lasting bugs, for example connection center hangs, it's not easy to fix without affecting other parts of program. We will fix it in beta series of 4.0. Don't want to break anything in V3. Or an old bug just surfaces again... What bug are you speaking about? -- Best regards, Maxim Masiutinmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: IMAP fixes
Hello Gleason, Thursday, April 12, 2007, 18:56:14, you wrote: I think part of the problem is that they are unable to duplicate a lot of these problems. Devilishly hard to fix that kind of problem. Even harder to know it you actually fixed it without confirmation. Yes, that's right, thank you for understanding. -- Best regards, Maxim Masiutinmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: IMAP fixes
Hi Maxim, On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:15:23 +0300 UTC (4/12/2007, 12:15 PM -0500 UTC my time), Maxim Masiutin wrote: I think part of the problem is that they are unable to duplicate a lot of these problems. Devilishly hard to fix that kind of problem. Even harder to know it you actually fixed it without confirmation. M Yes, that's right, thank you for understanding. Given that all programmers have this same general problem, why is it that the free, or open source programs of Thunderbird or Mulberry work perfectly with IMAP, and with any IMAP server? Yesterday, for example, I had the old bug of cannot open message again, when I clicked on a new message. I could not see the message body. This was after I had to delete the cache, as it would not update the counts or show correct message bodies with headers (another old bug). This was present in version 2, and in 3. There is so much work that the user has to do in order to make IMAP just to function half-way in TB! that it is not a pleasant experience to use it for IMAP. I still cannot log into a distant SSL IMAP server on port 993, with a certificate on that server, that has expired. Per your suggestion, I have to use Stunnel as another added step. Why? Why cannot the IMAP user be trusted to make the decision on whether they want to accept the cert? No other IMAP client works this way. Why do I have to jump through hoops to use IMAP or make it functional? taken from your other email . M If you tell about long-lasting bugs, for example connection center M hangs, it's not easy to fix without affecting other parts of program. We M will fix it in beta series of 4.0. Don't want to break anything in V3. You have been through 2 complete versions of TB! and still IMAP is not anywhere near complete. So, I am going to have to pay for version 4 in order to get IMAP where it should have been a couple of years ago, through _2_ full versions, and where others, who provide terrific IMAP clients, provide it for free... I don't think so. -- Gary Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: IMAP fixes
Gary, Hi Maxim, On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:15:23 +0300 UTC (4/12/2007, 12:15 PM -0500 UTC my time), Maxim Masiutin wrote: I think part of the problem is that they are unable to duplicate a lot of these problems. Devilishly hard to fix that kind of problem. Even harder to know it you actually fixed it without confirmation. M Yes, that's right, thank you for understanding. Given that all programmers have this same general problem, why is it that the free, or open source programs of Thunderbird or Mulberry work perfectly with IMAP, and with any IMAP server? Mulberry is perhaps the best of the lot, but it does not work perfectly. For instance Mulberry has the bad habit of locking up Windows XP. The last time that happened, an important unanswered email vanished from the server. And Mulberry's editing new email features are really unacceptable. Thunderbird has lots of glitz and glamor and name recognition, but it is several years behind the rest in features. Move back a couple of years and go through the whole cycle of new broken features and maybe fixes later? No, I don't think so. Yesterday, for example, I had the old bug of cannot open message again, when I clicked on a new message. Yes, it happens on occasion, not nearly as often as in the past. -- Gleason Using 3.98.11 on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: IMAP fixes
Hello Gary, Thursday, April 12, 2007, 20:40:23, you wrote: Yesterday, for example, I had the old bug of cannot open message again, when I clicked on a new message. I could not see the message body. This was after I had to delete the cache, as it would not update the counts or show correct message bodies with headers (another old bug). Could you please arrange us the test account on your server and your details how to reproduce this bug, and update the corresponding entry at the bugtrackins server? -- Best regards, Maxim Masiutinmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: IMAP fixes
Hello Gleason, Thursday, April 12, 2007, 20:59:01, you wrote: Thunderbird has lots of glitz and glamor and name recognition, but it is several years behind the rest in features. Move back a couple of years and go through the whole cycle of new broken features and maybe fixes later? No, I don't think so. I like Mozilla (Firefox) browser, but for me it frequently enters kind of endless loop and consumes all CPU cycles. For me this happens on different computers. On my opinion, MSIE outperforms Firefox in performance, and doesn't have the trouble with all-CPU consumption. -- Best regards, Maxim Masiutinmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: IMAP fixes
Sometimes I feel that you take off a band-aid from one part of the program and put on another part. It starts to bleed at another -for me at least- totally not understandable parts... If you speak about IMAP, it didn't get worse since the initial release in 2.0. Some things we are fixing, some we cannot at the moment, but the program is not getting worse. If you tell about long-lasting bugs, for example connection center hangs, it's not easy to fix without affecting other parts of program. We will fix it in beta series of 4.0. Don't want to break anything in V3. Or an old bug just surfaces again... What bug are you speaking about? I cannot tell you that off the top of my head, I just remember several cases when old, fixed bugs reappeared. Regarding IMAP: did not get worse... Which does not exist, that cannot be worse. I'm just frank, in order to have the same nice IMAP sometimes, than the POP3 now. Maxim, POP3 of TB is EXCELLENT. IMAP is crap. I used to install IMAP, last time did at the weekend, but after 30 min I deleted the account. It is in sub-alpha phase, by my opinion, regarding reliability. You can ask me: then why dont you report bugs? My answer: LOTS of problems regarding IMAP MUST BE obvious for you too. So, push it until we can really TEST it... When it really works at your PC. Maxim, I think, I can say, we have a good relationship. I dont want to ruin it, but if we would like to have a WORKING, RELIABLE IMAP, we must be honest with the situation. I pushed you over the mail losses in the Inbox (Compress at exit, generally low CPU, little RAM and stupid users), you have solved that too :))) -- Vili Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: IMAP fixes
Or an old bug just surfaces again... What bug are you speaking about? After reading others email, and wanting to be supportive (honest not supportive, I am supportive all the time): I will install a new TB, create the IMAP account, ZIP the whole TB, the RIT reg key and send to you with detailed description what should work and what does not work. I will do it not this weekend, but the one after that (april 21-22). This way you will be able to reproduce all the problems. -- Vili Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: IMAP fixes
Hi Gleason, On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:59:01 -0400 UTC (4/12/2007, 12:59 PM -0500 UTC my time), Gleason Pace wrote: Given that all programmers have this same general problem, why is it that the free, or open source programs of Thunderbird or Mulberry work perfectly with IMAP, and with any IMAP server? G Mulberry is perhaps the best of the lot, but it does not work G perfectly. For instance Mulberry has the bad habit of locking up G Windows XP. The last time that happened, an important unanswered G email vanished from the server. This has never happened to me, ever, or anyone on the Mulberry lists that I have maintained for them previously. You are correct in that Mulberry follows the IMAP protocol far greater than other clients (more of the protocol features, and some that are not in the RFC's). G And Mulberry's editing new email features are really unacceptable. It is easy enough to use, just type, and has a much better spell checker. If I need advanced editing features, I use Vim or emacs (in windows or Unix) as my editor with Mulberry. G Thunderbird has lots of glitz and glamor and name recognition, but it G is several years behind the rest in features. The plug ins or add-ons are actually not behind in features, but ahead, e.g. full calendar and IMAP sync-ing on my mail servers, even push technology, also PGP use, like in TB!, etc. Even eliminating my above remarks, getting back to the crux, it's IMAP functionality is far superior, and faster, even with those people that keep 1000s of emails in one folder (not really recommended in IMAP). It just works, never had any problems. What one has to decide is if they are willing to give up some features in TB! for a client that handles IMAP well. Will I give up some feature, e.g. to use a Quick Template in order to have IMAP that works properly, without hassles, without jumping through hoops of having to delete caches, fiddle between settings over and over again, and with the ability to log into an IMAP server that has an expired cert ?? ... any day of the week. Yesterday, for example, I had the old bug of cannot open message again, when I clicked on a new message. G Yes, it happens on occasion, not nearly as often as in the past. I see, so this is acceptable to you ? Not nearly as often as in the past is not good enough for me regarding IMAP, not after waiting 2 full years, through 2 versions. Talking about your glitz and glamor, isn't that what Ritlabs has been working on, while putting IMAP on the back burner? You seem to forget that last year, when moving to v3, when similar complaints arose, there was an outcry from the IMAP users that progress was slow, incomplete, and why should they pay and upgrade to v3 when IMAP was introduced in v2. -- Gary Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: IMAP fixes
Hi Maxim, On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:09:05 +0300 UTC (4/12/2007, 1:09 PM -0500 UTC my time), Maxim Masiutin wrote: Yesterday, for example, I had the old bug of cannot open message again, when I clicked on a new message. I could not see the message body. This was after I had to delete the cache, as it would not update the counts or show correct message bodies with headers (another old bug). M Could you please arrange us the test account on your server and your M details how to reproduce this bug, and update the corresponding entry at M the bugtrackins server? Yes, I will be more than glad to do this for you. I will write to you privately to give you an IMAP account on my server. I will send you the details, password, etc. I will then give you the details to reproduce this bug. However, I cannot do this for another 2-3 hours, as I have to leave to attend an important meeting that I must go to. As soon as I return, I will give the information you ask for. Hopefully, you will still be awake, but if not you will have the information for tomorrow your time. Thank you, -- Gary Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: IMAP fixes
Gary, This has never happened to me, ever, or anyone on the Mulberry lists that I have maintained for them previously. But, as you well know, the facts that I am not seeing the TB problems you are having with IMAP, and that RIT can't duplicate them, doesn't mean that you are not having them. G And Mulberry's editing new email features are really unacceptable. It is easy enough to use, just type, and has a much better spell checker. If I need advanced editing features, I use Vim or emacs (in windows or Unix) as my editor with Mulberry. Another problem you are obviously not seeing. G Thunderbird has lots of glitz and glamor and name recognition, but it G is several years behind the rest in features. The plug ins or add-ons are actually not behind in features, but ahead, e.g. full calendar and IMAP sync-ing on my mail servers, even push technology, also PGP use, like in TB!, etc. Even eliminating my above remarks, getting back to the crux, it's IMAP functionality is far superior, and faster, even with those people that keep 1000s of emails in one folder (not really recommended in IMAP). It just works, never had any problems. What one has to decide is if they are willing to give up some features in TB! for a client that handles IMAP well. Like I said, TB has important feature advantages. Mailticker, customizable message index column headings, customizable message header display, lots more. You seem to forget that last year, when moving to v3, when similar complaints arose, there was an outcry from the IMAP users that progress was slow, incomplete, and why should they pay and upgrade to v3 when IMAP was introduced in v2. Yes, I do remember that TB IMAP was unusable for me a few years ago. I think Rit has put significant effort into Imap. I thank them for that. -- Gleason Using The Bat! 3.98.11 on Windows XP Sp2. Connecting to the Fastmail server which uses Cyrus IMAP server software. Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: IMAP fixes
Hello Alexander, Thursday, April 12, 2007, 21:44:22, you wrote: That means if no one comments on a bug for a certain time you consider it fixed? Odd. Shall we add comments for all unfixed bugs after each version that is released? That will give you plenty of comments, I think... :-P At least once in 3 months would be helpful. -- Best regards, Maxim Masiutinmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: IMAP fixes
On Thursday, April 12, 2007, 1:13:15 PM, Vili wrote: Regarding IMAP: did not get worse... Which does not exist, that cannot be worse. I'm just frank, in order to have the same nice IMAP sometimes, than the POP3 now. Maxim, POP3 of TB is EXCELLENT. IMAP is crap. I used to install IMAP, last time did at the weekend, but after 30 min I deleted the account. It is in sub-alpha phase, by my opinion, regarding reliability. You can ask me: then why dont you report bugs? My answer: LOTS of problems regarding IMAP MUST BE obvious for you too. So, push it until we can really TEST it... When it really works at your PC. I don't know about the POP part any more, since I no longer use it except on rare occasions for some special reason, but I disagree with your negative assessment of IMAP. It may not be perfect, and there are a few things about Outlook which I am forced to use some at work because of interfacing with other software, but I find it quite usable, and preferable to any other options I tried. -- Dwight A. Corrin 928 S Broadway Wichita KS 67211 316.303.1411 fax 316.265.7568 dcorrin at fastmail.fm Using IMAP with The Bat! 3.98.11 on Windows XP version 5,1 (Service Pack 2) Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: IMAP fixes
On Friday, April 13, 2007, 12:40:09 AM, Dwight A Corrin wrote: a few things about Outlook which I am forced to use I see I left out a couple of important words here. sorry I don't edit well after midnight. should read even a few things I like about Outlook -- Dwight A. Corrin 928 S Broadway Wichita KS 67211 316.303.1411 fax 316.265.7568 dcorrin at fastmail.fm Using IMAP with The Bat! 3.98.11 on Windows XP version 5,1 (Service Pack 2) Current beta is 3.98.11 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
