Re: Self-introduction: TheEvilSkeleton

[Gavin Flower]

On 29/03/2021 02:24, Michael Schwendt wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 12:15:13 -0400, TheEvilSkeleton wrote:


My alias is TheEvilSkeleton, but you can also call me Tesk,
TheEvilSkely, Skelly, Proprietary Chrome-chan or anything close to it.

May I ask for your real name?

Where does this come from that people introduce themselves with
pseudonyms, aliases, usernames but no real name?
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Hi,

Leaving aside the question of using a real name...

It is much easier to take people seriously if they have a more sensible, 
even if boring, name.  The names you suggested might be fine in your 
existing situation, but imply (probably incorrectly) a lack of maturity, 
and some people would also find them offensive (though I'm sure that is 
not your intention).



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: so.... how solid is the f34 branch at branch time?

[Gavin Flower]

On 13/02/2021 14:02, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Wed, 2021-02-10 at 11:30 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:

Last few releases, I've aggressively updated my systems to the branch very
shortly after branching, and I have (mostly) not regretted it. If I do that
with F34 this week... how's it looking?

Well, it has the same somewhat-quirky early build of GNOME Shell /
mutter that you already provided notes on from the COPR, so there's
that. Aside from that it shouldn't be too bad right now.


How is the Mate Desktop Environment?

I was a loyal GNOME user until GNOME 3 was foisted on us.


Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: [fedora-qa] Issue #569: Proposal to redefine core applications.

[Gavin Flower]

On 10/11/2018 05:09, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:
[...]


I think for just the Workstation testing I do myself I will continue 
with my "over testing" approach where I "try out" all of the graphical 
app's that anaconda installs. and file bugs (not nominated) for issues 
I fine.


That's wonderful!




I also see the point that the non-Gnome spins could benefit from some 
more testing and will start doing testing with one or two of them. Any 
suggestions on which spins could benefit most from some attention?


Mate of course!  Although, I admit I'm biased here...

But more sensibly, I don't have sufficient knowledge to answer your 
question properly.


[...]


Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Fwd: [fedora-qa] Issue #569: Proposal to redefine core applications.

[Gavin Flower]

On 07/11/2018 23:33, Lukas Ruzicka wrote:

Hello Fedora QA and friends,

I would like to propose a change of what we define as core 
applications because I feel that how it is done today is not 
sufficient. Let me explain.


## How it works today?

The *core applications* are defined in this testcase 
(https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Technical_Specification#Core_Applications). 
In our matrices, the core applications are only tested for Gnome 
Workstation. The appropriate test case 
(https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Technical_Specification#Core_Applications) 
requires that all core applications are installed on the system and 
that they start. The functionality is apparently tested by the 
*Desktop Menus Testcase*.


## How I think it could work?
I think we could change how we approach the core applications, how we 
test them and where we test them. For example:


* A list of generic core applications should be made (or the old list 
used, see above), so that core applications are not limited to a 
certain desktop environment (although we only test Gnome). By 
*generic* I mean that we should not explicitly say, if the terminal 
application is *gnome-terminal* or anything else. We only say it is a 
*terminal* application and each spin will pick up what suits best for 
them.
* Core applications should be promoted to be a part of all Fedora 
spins. It should not happen that a spin is missing a core application 
after a clean installation.
* The presence check (that the apps are installed) could be easily 
done by OpenQA. Possibly, it could be done even for more DE than just 
Gnome, hence we could enhance the user experience for spin users.
* Functionality of the applications should be redefined - what we 
expect for them to be doing - and this functionality should be 
required. I suppose, that we would only block on Workstation 
functionality, though. However, these guidelines could help the spin 
teams to decide which apps to use as core apps.
* *Core applications* should not just have a basic functionality, as 
defined in *Gnome Menus testcase* 
(https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Testcase_desktop_menus), they 
should be fully functioning.


Before I focus on details, I would like to know your opinions on this 
matter.


Thank you.

To reply, visit the link below or just reply to this email
https://pagure.io/fedora-qa/issue/569


I agree.

I used to use GNOME 2 exclusively (I think GNOME 2.4.2 was probably the 
best version), but am now in mate, after going initially to xfce, 
because GNOME 3 laced customisability, functionality, and is simply too 
hard to use.  The arrival of GNOME 3 drove a lot of people into 
alternative Desktop Environments, so GNOME is no longer as popular as it 
once was.


I suspect that a lot GNOME 3 usage hinges on the fact that it is the 
default option, and people have to make an explicit choice to select a 
different DE.


Mate, and at least one other DE, have a lot of stuff in common with GNOME.

However, even where the DE has little in common with GNOME, it may 
deserve more support.


Essentially one of the benefits of Linux over Apple's and Microsoft's 
offerings, is that users have a choice of Desktop Environment.  So it 
would be good for Fedora, if a wider range of DE's are more fully supported.



Cheers,
Gavin

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Re: vncserver for non-gnome desktops

[Gavin Flower]

On 07/09/2018 01:24, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I am working with Fedora29 on arm, but this is really a long time 
issue that needs to be addressed.


The ~/.vnc/xstartup file created by vncserver is for gnome.  It does 
not work for other desktop environments.


There is no documentation (that I have found) on what should be in 
xstartup for, say Xfce (that I use).  Googling comes up with different 
recommendations for other repos and it is confusing what to use.


Minimally, the xstartup should have commented lines for other desktops 
and to indicate that the default is for gnome.


I can put up a bug report on this to ask for this 'enhancement'.

And if anyone can give me the proper xstartup content for Xfce, I 
would appreciate it.


thanks


[...]

Even if huge numbers of people had not fled GNOME, once GNOME 3 for 
foisted on us, I would still think that Robert's complaint & suggestion 
are valid.



Cheer,
Gavin
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Re: GNOME 3.30.0 megaupdate

[Gavin Flower]

On 06/09/2018 04:45, Parag Nemade wrote:



On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 8:49 PM, Stephen Gallagher > wrote:




On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 11:12 AM Kalev Lember
mailto:kalevlem...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi all,

As many of you know, I've been gone half the summer. I'm back
now since
Monday though and just in time for GNOME 3.30.0 :)

We are quite a bit behind with the builds, like half of GNOME
is still
at 3.28.x or at various stages of 3.29.x snapshots, so there's
quite a
bit of catching up to do.

I just requested a f29-gnome side tag and will be commencing
3.30.0
builds shortly. When the builds are done, I'll try to collect
all the
builds in a single Bodhi megaupdate as usual. Please use
'fedpkg build
--target f29-gnome' if you are helping with builds, and I'll
pick up
anything that is tagged with f29-gnome in koji.

Dunno what to do wrt the ongoing freeze and getting final 3.30
in F29
Beta, I guess it may be too late for that. Any opinions from
QA here?

There's also a few 3.30.0 builds already submitted separately into
Bodhi. I may try to collect those to the megaupdate as well,
not sure
yet. Let's see how things go :)



I'd be *strongly* disinclined to give a Freeze Exception for a
GNOME mega-update. There's just far too much that could go wrong.
Please plan to land the mega-update in updates-testing once the
Freeze lifts. U-T is enabled by default on the Beta, so people
will pick it up on their first post-install update anyway.



Please don't stop this update. There will be few required fixes in 
this megaupdate which we need early to test.


Parag.


[...]

I used to be a loyal GNOME 2 user, now I use Mate.  So I'd prefer it, if 
Fedora 29 was not destabilised for the majority of people who don't use 
GNOME.


Unless it improves using the Mate Desktop environment of course! :-)

Sorry, but years after GNOME 3 was foisted on us, I still have very 
strong feelings.



Cheers,
Gavin

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Re: Introduction

[Gavin Flower]

On 20/02/18 06:57, pmkel...@frontier.com wrote:

Hi!

My credentials are in electrical engineering and just before I retired 
(almost three year ago) I was reading through the Intel spec's on the 
latest chip sets ; as I needed to understand physical data flow 
bottlenecks. From early childhood I was not only interested in 
electronics, but in electronic computers. This stuff is something I do 
because I really like it, not because it was my profession.


I have programmed in many languages. There are several I only wrote 
one program with just to explore the language. There are some examples 
below. Sometimes I am still amazed by the number of new languages 
being published. After I look them over though I laugh at the huge 
similarities to the ones the pre-existed them. My first experience as 
a student was with with Fortran and SPS on an old IBM 1620 I found 
“laying around”. After that I wrote a fair amount of machine code 
(hex) and some BAL for IBM 360. After I was working and 
microprocessors became available, there weren't any programmers around 
for them; so the electrical engineers who implemented the processors 
in hardware also wrote the software. A fact I was very happy about. I 
wrote hex code for the Motorola 6800 and later I did a little for the 
68000. I also wrote a fair amount of code in Pascal on a VAX computer. 
Pascal was all they had on that machine and they didn't want to buy 
another license.


Later when PCs became available in a form similar to those commonly in 
use today, I wrote useful code in Smalltalk, Lisp, Java. The first two 
were connected to an AI project I worked on. The Java was control code 
for a mechanism not for web pages. In the 1980s I was sent by one of 
the companies I worked for to take C classes. I took all classes, but 
then the project was canceled; so I never had a chance to use it. 
Things I learned in the C classes, like the ease with which memory 
leaks were created, lead be to have a strong aversion for it . I never 
pursued C after that.


Since I abandon Windows, about F16 ago, and started using Fedora, I've 
been writing in Python. I've always held the opinion that code should 
be well organized and easy to follow. After I wrote my first thousand 
lines of python I went and got the style guide and found to my 
satisfaction that my code, with one exception was compliant. I've 
never taken classes in Python; so I won't present myself as being 
ready to start writing Python for Fedora. Though I just purchased a 
course from the Teaching Company that uses Python for all the code 
work. I haven't started it yet so I can say more about it.


My tiny contributions to Fedora so far has been running the canned 
regression tests on Linux. I got a FAS account so I could submit the 
results, but since I haven't joined a group yet that was about all I 
could do. As I was think further about it it seemed like testing would 
be a good place to start.




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Hi,

Am not officially connected with Fedora nor Red Hat.  So this is pure my 
personal opinion!


I think with your low level skills with Intel Chip sets, that you would 
be well place to review kernel code relating to such - if you can 
overcome your aversion to C.  You might like to look at http://lkml.org 
- am not a kernel hacker, so can't advise further...


The first three languages I got paid to use were FORTRAN IV, COBOL, and 
ICL 4/72 Assembler.



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Self Introduction

[Gavin Flower]

On 29/11/17 09:02, Luke Van Dervoort wrote:

AH, I see, a Post Nazi. Bugger off

On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Sumantro Mukherjee 
> wrote:




- Original Message -
> From: "Luke Van Dervoort" >
> To: "For testing and quality assurance of Fedora releases" 
>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 12:15:20 AM
> Subject: Re: Self Introduction
>
> ". It will be awesome if you can start off by sending an group
request for
> 'qa'."
>
> Where do I do that ??
It's not a good idea to Top post.

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/application_screen/qa

>


[...]

There are good reasons not to top post, which why bottom posting is the 
convention for the pg mailing lists.


It is certainly not acceptable to be rude to people, even if you 
disagree with them.


If you want to know why bottom posting is preferred, then ask and we can 
explain.



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Firefox launching maximize

[Gavin Flower]

On 23/06/17 03:17, Lawrence E Graves wrote:



On 06/22/2017 12:47 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 06/22/17 11:44, Lawrence E Graves wrote:
Is there anyone experiencing this problem. I am running Fedora 26 
Beta and every
time I launch firefox, it launches full screen. Is there a way to 
stop this or is

this a new feature I have to live with. Please advise.


(Repeating my response from another list just for completeness)

I am running F26 Beta on 2 VM's.  One is GNOME, the other KDE. In 
both of
these Firefox does not start at a maximum to take over the entire 
display.  So, I'm

not experiencing the issue you're facing.

What desktop are you running?


I am running gnome-shell.


Not a problem in the mate Desktop Environment!

(Ex GNOME 2 user)
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Re: Self-introduction: Jack Winch (jwinch)

[Gavin Flower]

On 26/09/16 04:18, Jack Winch wrote:

Hi All,
My name is Jack and I'm an 18 year old applications engineer, based in 
the UK. I have worked for Rolls-Royce plc for two years now and they 
are sponsoring me through my education as an electrical and 
electronics engineer (later forking me off into software engineering). 
For the past seven months I have been working as a QA tester for a new 
instructional system - it's purpose is to take measurement and test 
requirements from development engineers and produce the required 
technical instructions/documents/data aquisition system configuration 
files, to allow for the rigging of instrumentation on the 
experimental engine and for the configuration of the test data 
systems. I have also been involved in the comissioning and validation 
of new measurement hardware/data acquisiton system architecture for a 
new test rig being built by RR in Dahlewitz, Germany.
For those who may be curious, my LinkedIn profile may be found 
here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-winch
Although I may be young, still a little wet behind the ears and some 
may say 'naive', I am a highly enthusiastic and knowledge hungry 
individual, who has a passion for learning, as well as a passion 
for being involved with inovative projects such as the Fedora project. 
I have spent a lot of time working within the different spins 
of Fedora (we use Fedora extensively within RR) and it would be 
amazing if you could put my high energy, enthusiasm and current 
technical experience to use, within the QA group.
I look forward to hearing from some of you and I am eager to help in 
whatever manner you see fit.

Many Thanks and Kind Regards,
Jack Winch


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An unofficial welcome from me!

With your attitude & determination, I feel you will be very successful - 
and definitely an asset to Fedora!


I fear you're doomed to end up in management!  :-)


Your email reminds me of a motto my father told me "Be Bold While 
Caution Lasts!".



Here is a joke that is appropriately inappropriate for yourself (given 
your training):


Q: How many software engineers does it take to change a light bulb?

A: None! Its a hardware problem...



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: [Fedora Rawhide Test]Cannot Remap my keyboard layout

[Gavin Flower]

On 25/09/16 14:31, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Sat, 2016-09-24 at 18:55 -0500, Bowen Wang wrote:

Thanks! I am currently working on learning xkb. I will post my way if it
can work.
I know the Rawhide is not very stable, but it provides the cutting-edge
features and software.
There is another issue I just found:
I download the image of Rawhide 20160923 version, then I upgraded my system
today. When restarted the laptop again, there seems to be another grub
entry. How can I delete the old one? There are 3 entries in my grub list
totally, the last is a rescue mode entry.
Can you tell me how to delete the old one?

This is normal, but don't worry, it won't keep growing forever :) The
default Fedora config is to keep three kernels installed at once. This
is a safety measure to ensure that if you update to a kernel that
doesn't work, you can still boot with one of the older kernels. Once
you have three kernels installed, you'll find Fedora will start
removing the oldest kernel when installing a new kernel.

If you really just want to have one kernel installed at a time you can
configure this, I think, but I'd have to look up how. I really
recommend sticking with the default, though, it's a helpful safety
measure.


One time about 12 years ago I had a kernel update that had a bug which 
prevented me connecting to the modem, I was able to reboot to the 
previous kernel & continue as before.  I raised a bug report, & the next 
kernel I downloaded had that bug fixed.


So Yes, it is good to keep a few previous kernels around just in case ...


Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Idea for graduation project

[Gavin Flower]

On 16/07/16 08:08, Claudiu Dorin wrote:


Could you be more specific?
What are you studying, what are the requirements for the project...

I did a simple inventory system with PHP & MySQL recently for the same 
purpose.


On Jul 14, 2016 6:47 PM, "Mohammed Tayeh" > wrote:


Hi everybody
I am looking to an idea for my graduation project
I can do it with PHP, android, Linux, other
I have a long time and I can learn anything on this time if the
idea need
Please if you have any idea tell me ☺☺

Thanks to all


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If your data is important- DON"t use MySQL, nor MariaDB - PostgreSQL is 
far more robust!



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: [Test-Announce] 2016-06-27 @ 15:00 UTC - Fedora QA Meeting

[Gavin Flower]

On 29/06/16 06:40, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Tue, 2016-06-28 at 02:24 -0400, Sumantro Mukherjee wrote:

Hey Dev

you can catch the logs here https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-
meeting/2016-06-27/fedora-qa.2016-06-27-15.00.html


Yep, and I'll send it to the list soon - sorry, that just happens
manually, so it happens when I get a minute to do it :)


Sorry, due to budget constraints, you're only allowed 59 seconds!  :-)
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Re: Congratulations for F24ß

[Gavin Flower]

On 12/05/16 09:46, Fred Smith wrote:

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 08:33:56AM +1200, Gavin Flower wrote:

On 12/05/16 08:26, Sérgio Basto wrote:

On Qua, 2016-05-11 at 14:41 -0400, Fred Smith wrote:

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 07:26:41PM +0100, Sérgio Basto wrote:

On Qua, 2016-05-11 at 09:13 -0700, Gordon Messmer wrote:

On 05/11/2016 08:01 AM, Peter G. wrote:

How do you type the Greek beta

>from the keyboard (I use US dead keys—always and exclusively)?
One way is C-S-u 0 3 b 2 Space

what you mean by C-S-u ? can't figure out

ctrl-shift-u followed by a zero, a 3, a b, a 2, and a space.

try it at a terminal prompt, follow it with a space, and see what you
get.
I get a beta.

ah only works on gnome terminal , not in konsole

http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/12244/how-can-i-type-unicode-ch
aracters-into-kdes-konsole-terminal-from-a-gnome-deskt

I could workaround running:
python -c "print u'\u03b2'"

Thanks,

Works under Mate with LibreOffice.

You don't the  GNOME 3 for this!

yeah, I failed to mention I was using Mate Terminal, which is probably
derived from Gnome-2 terminal. Didn't try it in LibreOffice, but glad
to hear that it works. I did try it in vi (vim) where it didn't seem
to do anything.


I used to use GNOME 2 exclusively, I think the best version of GNOME was 
2.4.2.


When GNOME 3 was foisted on us, I initially fled to xfce, now I've been 
on Mate for a few years.


With LibreOffice 5.1.x you can also use X, see:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/5.1#Unicode_character_input_with_Alt.2BX

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Re: Congratulations for F24ß

[Gavin Flower]

On 12/05/16 08:26, Sérgio Basto wrote:

On Qua, 2016-05-11 at 14:41 -0400, Fred Smith wrote:

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 07:26:41PM +0100, Sérgio Basto wrote:

On Qua, 2016-05-11 at 09:13 -0700, Gordon Messmer wrote:

On 05/11/2016 08:01 AM, Peter G. wrote:


How do you type the Greek beta
from the keyboard (I use US dead keys—always and exclusively)?

One way is C-S-u 0 3 b 2 Space

what you mean by C-S-u ? can't figure out

ctrl-shift-u followed by a zero, a 3, a b, a 2, and a space.

try it at a terminal prompt, follow it with a space, and see what you
get.
I get a beta.

ah only works on gnome terminal , not in konsole

http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/12244/how-can-i-type-unicode-ch
aracters-into-kdes-konsole-terminal-from-a-gnome-deskt

I could workaround running:
python -c "print u'\u03b2'"

Thanks,


Works under Mate with LibreOffice.

You don't the  GNOME 3 for this!

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Re: Self-introduction: Devon Bundy

[Gavin Flower]

On 17/11/15 07:45, Devon Bundy wrote:

Hello world!

My name is Devon Bundy and I'd like to introduce myself. I have been 
working in the proprietary field for years in PHP and MySQL as a DBA. 
I have only recently gotten more involved in Open-source, I used 
Debian for many years primarily but have been using Fedora for about a 
year. I enjoy supporting users and writing documentation. Because I've 
worked in the proprietary market for so long I've gotten good at 
breaking software (not having a proper QA team) so I look forward to 
testing software and finding bugs.


I live in the United States with my wife and daughter.
I can be be found as devonbundy in #fedora as well as others.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Devonbundy

Feel free to PM me, and I look forward to meeting you all!



Welcome!

Perhaps you can have ago at breaking the PostgreSQL 9.6 development 
branch, a bit more of a challenge than MySQL!!! :-)



Cheers,
Gavin

P.S.  It is ironic that I have had 2 jobs where I have had to use MySQL, 
but I have only used PostgreSQL for my own projects -  I'd recommend 
PostgreSQL over MySQL (for many reasons: including performance, 
reliability, and ease of use).

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Re: Self Introduction: Ricky Grassmuck

[Gavin Flower]

See my answer at the bottom of this email.

On 14/11/15 06:14, Ricky Grassmuck wrote:


Thanks for pointing those emails out, it's exactly what i was looking 
for! Those emails were getting lost in the mix so I created a bundle 
in gmail just for those so I can keep up with them separately. I think 
I'll get that VM deployed tonight and start going through the lists 
I've already received.



On Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 11:07 AM Adam Williamson 
> wrote:


On Fri, 2015-11-13 at 16:28 +, Ricky Grassmuck wrote:
>
> What's the best way to find newly added packages/components that
need
> testing? I'm thinking of spinning up a base F23 VM in qemu/kvm
to use for
> installing and testing packages that I don't need or use on my
main setups.

fedora-easy-karma effectively does this - the goal is to file karma on
them, but of course it's telling you all the packages on your system
that come from updates-testing (i.e. are quite new and need testing).


[...]

In this list, the convention is to post replies at the end (with some 
rare exceptions), or interspersed when appropriate, and to omit parts no 
longer relevant.


The motivation of bottom posting like this: is that people get to see 
the context before the reply, AND emails don't end up getting longer & 
longer as people reply at the beginning forgetting to trim the now 
irrelevant stuff at the end.



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Newbie in FedoraProject team

[Gavin Flower]

On 28/10/15 22:11, Alexander Kolesnikov wrote:

Hi all!

My name is Alexander Kolesnikov, I am from St. Petersburg, Russia. I 
use Linux about 6 years: 4 years as system administrator of RedHat and 
CentOS and last two years Fedora is primary home OS. I have backgroud 
in system administration and QA. I would like to help Fedora QA team.
And I hope, that someone help me to join in QA group in FAS, I am 
already sent request.
My account in FAS 
(https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/user/view/karter)

My irc nickname is krter.
I hope I can be useful for FedoraProject.

P.S.: Sorry for my not good English. :)


Best regards,
Alexander Kolesnikov


Your English is many orders of magnitude better than my Russian, which 
consists only of the word 'nyet'!


Some suggestions concerning your English usage:

1. 'I use Linux about 6 years' ==> 'I have used Linux for about 6 years'

2. 'I would like to help Fedora QA team.' ==> 'I would like to help the
   Fedora QA team.'

3. 'I am already sent request.' ==> 'I have already sent a request.'

4. 'Sorry for my not good English.' ==> Sorry for my bad English.'


Note that what you said is quite understandable, except perhaps for 
Australians (joke: New Zealanders pretend  Australians are very stupid - 
I live in NZ).



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: problems with redhat bugzilla?

[Gavin Flower]

On 03/10/15 01:23, Sérgio Basto wrote:

On Sex, 2015-10-02 at 12:37 +0200, Karel Volný wrote:

Maybe my assumption was not totally correct but now bugzilla says:

The password must contain at least one:

 letter
 special character
 digit

and 8 characters minimum length

if Bugzilla enforce 8 characters minimum length , it is a strong
password !
if not , it should.

Thanks,
8 seems a bit short for an external password, I tend to use 16 
characters like:

KRT

Re: Rawhide plans

[Gavin Flower]

On 20/08/15 03:52, Josh Boyer wrote:

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Kevin Fenzi ke...@scrye.com wrote:

[...]

I think everyone also agreed that the pain points were around getting a
rawhide install in the first place:

1. boot/netinstall iso is often broken or not produced. Live media
likewise.

2. Upgrading from a stable release is also often hard due to broken
deps, resulting in having to remove packages just to get upgraded.

[...]

I see issues that come as a side effect of _after_ you get rawhide
installed.  With it being a rolling release, you theoretically never
have to do a fresh install again.  Which means that the install
environment (both live and boot.iso) that are produced in rawhide get
very little testing.  This in turn leads to hero testing around the
milestones for the subsequent Branched release.

I have no solution for this at the moment.  I simply thought that it's
worth pointing out that if we convert lots of tester type people to
use rawhide on a daily basis, we're going to limit our tester pool
significantly.

[...]



* Matt opened a thread on the marketing list about renaming rawhide. It
   sounds like most people would prefer us to make the changes first,
   then and only then look at renaming.

This would make me very very sad.

I suggest 'rawhide' NOT be renamed.  As it improves, so will its reputation.

However: I suggest that there should be a 'tannedhide', which is simply 
a copy of the last rawhide that passed all the checking (or at least, 
had nothing that seriously broke things - so things like wrong 
backgrounds  spelling mistakes would be okay). So a lot of people would 
test tannedhide, and the seriously hardcore would test rawhide.


And possible a 'fashionhide', from time to time derived from 
'tannedhide', that would be downloadable as a tentative set of images 
(including live media).


[...]


Cheers,
Gavin

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Re: Alpha Criterion Discussion: Desktop Backgrounds

[Gavin Flower]

On 08/08/15 05:42, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Fri, Aug 07, 2015 at 10:22:56AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:

What I *can't* find is any reference for the justification usually
cited for the criterion. Several times we mention that there was an
actual case where people downloaded an Alpha or Beta then got confused
because the background was the same as the previous stable release, but
I've been searching for 15 mins and can't find it. This is probably
just because it's a difficult thing to search for, though.

It's worth noting that we used to use considerably more 'striking'
desktop backgrounds than we currently do; the last few releases have
all been fairly subtle variations on the theme of 'abstract shapes in
Fedora blue', really.

Here's a thought: maybe the Fedora background logo GNOME Shell plugin
could detect if running on an Alpha/Beta release (or on Rawhide) and
change appropriately?



Some us fled from GNOME, when GNOME 3 was unleashed!

I now use Mate, and avoid GNOME as much as is practicable.


Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Alpha Criterion Discussion: Desktop Backgrounds

[Gavin Flower]

On 08/08/15 03:06, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
[...]
I don't even think the desktop background is all that visible anymore, 
especially on some desktops (like workstation/gnome). People there 
tend to use full screen apps and never even see the wallpaper. That 
also seems like a pretty poor way to tell what release you are running.

I have a 30 monitor and have 35 Virtual Desktops under Mate.

The only time I regularly use a full screen app is for Eclipse IDE. Not 
all of us have a Microsoft mentality!  :-)


It is usually more productive, not to automatically make apps fullscreen.
[...]


Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Live media changes systemtime to UTC

[Gavin Flower]

On 30/05/15 04:59, Joerg Lechner wrote:

Hi,
I add this comment about F22 here, even when F22 is now distributed as final, 
because I think this problem will also occur in F23.
When I load the F22 Final Live Medium (Workstation x86_64) via USB stick to the 
laptop the system time is permanently changed to UTC.
The Live medium is produced via the F22 liveUSB Creator. There was a similar 
problem in F20 or F21, I don't remember exactly.
Kind Regards

The system should ALWAYS be in UTC (also known as GMT)!

It should NEVER be changed to local time.

Each user can set their own time zone, so there is no need to change the 
system away from UTC.



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Shutdown after updates?

[Gavin Flower]

On 29/04/15 02:41, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 04:38:00PM +0200, Łukasz Posadowski wrote:

Another strange issue with F22. I bootet and the offline update procedure
started (without me having started it knowingly). When done, it said it
would shutdown after updates, and it really turnt off the machine instead
of rebooting.
What has happened there? Is this configurable?

You probably left install updates checkbox on when you turned computer off 
using gnome menu. Easiest way to disable this is uninstall gnome-software.

Wow, that's a big hammer.

Yeah, I used to use GNOME 2 - GNOME 3 forced me to xfce, now I'm using 
Mate. Both xfce  Mate are much more customisable than GNOME 3, and 
don't try and get in your way - I have 35 virtual desktops, and 2 highly 
customised panels which auto hide


On F21 and earlier I ran yum from the command line, better diagnostics 
and control.  For F22, am using dnf.


Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Self-Introduction: Giulio (juliuxpigface)

[Gavin Flower]

On 25/03/15 07:01, Giulio 'JuLiuX' wrote:

Hi guys

My real name is Giulio, I'm 22 and I'm from Trento (Italy). I have been
using Fedora since 2010 and I'd like to join the Fedora-QA team. Let's
spend SOME words about me, hehe...

My main hobby is... Well, testing new releases! I've been keeping alive
a KVM's guest with Fedora Rawhide and I have enjoyed some test-days.
Bug-hunting seems like a sort of game to me :). I have to study a lot
about the whole mechanism behind Fedora-QA, but I'm sure I'll have the
chance to learn a lot of new things. I'm also new to such things like
Mailing Lists and IRC, so I apologize for any mistake I'll make (if
any). My English is not perfect either. But I'm here for learning and
growing :)!

Other hobbies of mine involve Python (especially the framework Django),
reading book about development and IT in general.

And... You may wonder why my nickname looks a bit strange. I usually say
that I chose it because 'juliux' was already taken. Hmm, the truth is,
I'm a bit crazy, I love pigs and I like to distinguish myself from
masses! Oink oink!

Feel free to ask me anything you'd like to.

Giulio (juliuxpigface)

Some information:
- FAS account: juliuxpigface
- mail: juliux {dot} pigface {at} gmail {dot} com

Your English is so good, that it is not obvious it is a second language 
for you!


Software cevelpment is such a serious business, that a 
perverse^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H good sense of humour is essential!



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 22 Alpha Release Candidate 3 (RC3) Available Now!

[Gavin Flower]

On 08/03/15 08:10, Gavin Flower wrote:

On 08/03/15 07:56, Joerg Lechner wrote:
I don't know how to express correctly in computer English. As I used 
YUM previously from Fxx to F21,  for installation of YUM I went
to the software tool in Gnome, put into the search line yum and 
then install. Afterwards there
was an icon YUM amongst all the other application icons, which are 
displayed, when You hit the Aktivitaeten
Button (F22 German language version), and then the icon at the bottom 
there. I could use this simple way to display the yum menue in the 
window and in not

too complicated cases it was not neccessary to go via command line.
In F22 it is not possible even to find YUM in the Gnome Software 
Tool, but there is Yum (or Yumex, I don't know the difference) as 
command line tool.



-Ursprüngliche Mitteilung-
Von: Michael Schwendt mschwe...@gmail.com
An: test test@lists.fedoraproject.org
Verschickt: Sa, 7 Mrz 2015 6:19 pm
Betreff: Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 22 Alpha Release Candidate 3 
(RC3) Available Now!



On Sat, 7 Mar 2015 05:59:37 -0500, Joerg Lechner wrote:


Hi,
as I know dnf
is also a command line tool, if I don't use a command line tool every 
day,

I
always have to use the man pages. In don't find a tool with similar 
features

like YUM,

for none experts in F22. The icon called Software in Gnome, has

not sufficient features

to do all, what was possible with the icon yum.

Can
you tell a bit more about that icon?

What did it do? Yum in package yum is a
command-line tool, and dnf is
very similar. Perhaps you refer to yumex
instead? That's graphical
front-end for Yum.


Anyway I can use yum and dnf as

command line line tool, as I sometimes did in F21,

but it's more uncomfortable

work, compared  to F21 and to MS Windows.

If you still know how to use yum,
you can use it to search for package
tools other than gnome-software.

From the command line as root, can  run yum:
*# yum update
Loaded plugins: auto-update-debuginfo, langpacks, refresh-packagekit
No packages marked for update
# *

I assume you know to use *su -* to get into root from a terminal?

For details on how to run yum, type in *man yum*, either from either a 
normal user account, or your from root.


I run yum from the command line, as I get better diagnostics and have 
more control.  One can also modify its config file */etc/yum.conf*, or 
individual repo's in the directory */etc/yum.repos.d*



Cheers,
Gavin

aarghhh!  ignore the asterisks, if any show up.  I tried to format 
things to highlight them, but I noticed when I looked at my posting on 
the list that asterisks had been inserted.  It might be the case that 
you don't see any asterisks! and that it is just my software...


Reread Joerg's posting, then noticed he obviously knew about running yum 
from the command line - oh well!  However, I would still recommend him, 
and others, to use the command line as it provides far better control 
and superior diagnostics (especially when things go wrong)!




Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 22 Alpha Release Candidate 3 (RC3) Available Now!

[Gavin Flower]

On 08/03/15 07:56, Joerg Lechner wrote:

I don't know how to express correctly in computer English. As I used YUM 
previously from Fxx to F21,  for installation of YUM I went
to the software tool in Gnome, put into the search line yum and then install. 
Afterwards there
was an icon YUM amongst all the other application icons, which are displayed, when You 
hit the Aktivitaeten
Button (F22 German language version), and then the icon at the bottom there. I 
could use this simple way to display the yum menue in the window and in not
too complicated cases it was not neccessary to go via command line.
In F22 it is not possible even to find YUM in the Gnome Software Tool, but 
there is Yum (or Yumex, I don't know the difference) as command line tool.


-Ursprüngliche Mitteilung-
Von: Michael Schwendt mschwe...@gmail.com
An: test test@lists.fedoraproject.org
Verschickt: Sa, 7 Mrz 2015 6:19 pm
Betreff: Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 22 Alpha Release Candidate 3 (RC3) 
Available Now!


On Sat, 7 Mar 2015 05:59:37 -0500, Joerg Lechner wrote:


Hi,
as I know dnf

is also a command line tool, if I don't use a command line tool every day,

I

always have to use the man pages. In don't find a tool with similar features
like YUM,

for none experts in F22. The icon called Software in Gnome, has

not sufficient features

to do all, what was possible with the icon yum.

Can
you tell a bit more about that icon?

What did it do? Yum in package yum is a
command-line tool, and dnf is
very similar. Perhaps you refer to yumex
instead? That's graphical
front-end for Yum.


Anyway I can use yum and dnf as

command line line tool, as I sometimes did in F21,

but it's more uncomfortable

work, compared  to F21 and to MS Windows.

If you still know how to use yum,
you can use it to search for package
tools other than gnome-software.

From the command line as root, can  run yum:
*# yum update
Loaded plugins: auto-update-debuginfo, langpacks, refresh-packagekit
No packages marked for update
# *

I assume you know to use *su -* to get into root from a terminal?

For details on how to run yum, type in *man yum*, either from either a 
normal user account, or your from root.


I run yum from the command line, as I get better diagnostics and have 
more control.  One can also modify its config file */etc/yum.conf*, or 
individual repo's in the directory */etc/yum.repos.d*



Cheers,
Gavin

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Re: Self Introduction: Atmn Patel

[Gavin Flower]

On 29/12/14 10:51, Atmn Patel wrote:

Hello all,

My name is Atmn Patel. I am a high school student in a small town near 
Windsor, ON, Canada. I am technically in grade 10, but I'm looking at 
a very early graduation. I was going to apply to the University of 
Toronto this year, but didn't because my parents wouldn't let me go. 
My dream school is MIT, double major in CS and Physics to pursue a 
doctorate in Quantum Computing. I started with Linux in grade 6, with 
Ubuntu (when they still used GNOME) but after they switched to Unity, 
I changed to Arch Linux. I stuck with Arch until about 10 months ago 
when I decided that I actually want to start contributing, I changed 
to Fedora. I spent the last 10 months getting used to it, 
understanding it, and toying with it, and now I think its time I start 
contributing.


As for my computer skills, I know C and Python to the level of an 
introductory undergraduate course. I am currently learning Java in my 
spare time. I am also working towards getting the Linux Foundation 
Certified System Administrator. As for project experience, I have 
none. I believe that I am an excellent match for the project because I 
am willing to learn and dedicate time to the project (I have no 
experience whatsoever).


Time Zone: EST
Interests: N/A

GPG KEYID and fingerprint:
pub   2048R/65B2C7F9 2014-12-28 [expires: 2015-12-28]
  Key fingerprint = 11E7 A451 66B8 E676 1B70  937E 31A0 9D5F 65B2 C7F9
uid  Atmn Patel (Fedora Project) 
atmnpatel.eia...@gmail.com mailto:atmnpatel.eia...@gmail.com

sub   2048R/ACCE24D7 2014-12-28 [expires: 2015-12-28]


I strongly suggest that you allow yourself to mature before going to 
university, too many very bright children either burn out or have 
difficulty adjusting socially, then bomb out!  My youngest son really 
wanted to get to university a year early when he was in year 10, but he 
is glad he did not now - so we did look at a lot of the issues.


Very important to develop social  personal interactions skills.  Not 
just in relating to people socially, but being able to work effectively 
in teams with various types of people, not just technical people.  
Ensure that you can have a LIFE outside of physics  computers!  You're 
probably too young to even think about getting married in the future, 
but you still need to learn how to cook  do housework, and look after 
yourself - important for flatting, let alone for being married...


Broaden your experience and learning rather than rush into university.  
Better to skip year 1 at university than a year of school.  I taught 
myself Special Relativity when I was at high school, but didn't really 
know how to cook when I left home, and I am now in my second marriage.


However, I would like to encourage you to get more into Linux, and also 
into advanced physics (no need to wait until university, have you seen 
http://www.infocobuild.com/education/audio-video-courses/physics/quantum-entanglements-p1.html 
?). Physics is fascinating, I read up on M-Theory, but most of the Math 
is way, way beyond me - besides software development is meant to be were 
I earn money!


If you really want to be a top flight physicist, you need to have a good 
grasp of calculus, tensor algebra, and other aspects of Mathematics.  
You may want to look at http://sagemath.org as this is free software 
that runs on Linux that has similar features to Matlab  Mathematica.


I started with FORTRAN  COBOL, and I've taught C to experienced 
programmers, and my main language now is Java.  I consider myself lucky 
that we have Linux, all my computers run Fedora.  I think C  Java are 
good languages to know, but you may want to look into C++ and even 
FORTRAN (currently FORTRAN is the main language used in scientific super 
computing).



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Self Introduction: Atmn Patel

[Gavin Flower]

On 29/12/14 17:04, Atmn Patel wrote:

I'm sure I will learn a lot during my contribution here.
I feel very much welcome in this community.

--
Atmn Patel

On 28 December 2014 at 22:41, Lili Nie l...@redhat.com 
mailto:l...@redhat.com wrote:




- Original Message -
 From: Atmn Patel atmnpatel.eia...@gmail.com
mailto:atmnpatel.eia...@gmail.com
 To: test@lists.fedoraproject.org
mailto:test@lists.fedoraproject.org
 Sent: Monday, December 29, 2014 5:51:15 AM
 Subject: Self Introduction: Atmn Patel

 Hello all,

 My name is Atmn Patel. I am a high school student in a small
town near
 Windsor, ON, Canada. I am technically in grade 10, but I'm
looking at a very
 early graduation. I was going to apply to the University of
Toronto this
 year, but didn't because my parents wouldn't let me go. My dream
school is
 MIT, double major in CS and Physics to pursue a doctorate in Quantum
 Computing. I started with Linux in grade 6, with Ubuntu (when
they still
 used GNOME) but after they switched to Unity, I changed to Arch
Linux. I
 stuck with Arch until about 10 months ago when I decided that I
actually
 want to start contributing, I changed to Fedora. I spent the
last 10 months
 getting used to it, understanding it, and toying with it, and
now I think
 its time I start contributing.

 As for my computer skills, I know C and Python to the level of an
 introductory undergraduate course. I am currently learning Java
in my spare
 time. I am also working towards getting the Linux Foundation
Certified
 System Administrator. As for project experience, I have none. I
believe that
 I am an excellent match for the project because I am willing to
learn and
 dedicate time to the project (I have no experience whatsoever).

 Time Zone: EST
 Interests: N/A

 GPG KEYID and fingerprint:
 pub 2048R/65B2C7F9 2014-12-28 [expires: 2015-12-28]
 Key fingerprint = 11E7 A451 66B8 E676 1B70 937E 31A0 9D5F 65B2 C7F9
 uid Atmn Patel (Fedora Project)  atmnpatel.eia...@gmail.com
mailto:atmnpatel.eia...@gmail.com 
 sub 2048R/ACCE24D7 2014-12-28 [expires: 2015-12-28]

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 test@lists.fedoraproject.org mailto:test@lists.fedoraproject.org
 To unsubscribe:
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test

 Glad to see you brilliant guy here in this list:)
 As you may know,there are lots of nice professional engineers and
I'm sure you will learn a lot during your contribution.
 Enjoy your time together with Fedora,and I have confidence it
will be a life long.

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Please do not Top Post!


Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: sometimes things I tell in this forum are my faults

[Gavin Flower]

On 19/12/14 03:18, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2014-12-18 at 06:20 -0500, Joerg Lechner wrote:

Hi,
Can I tell something about me? My name is Joerg Lechner, I am living
in southern Germany.
I am a pensioneer. For about 30 years I was designing, programming
and testing SW in the telecommunication
area. We used a high level language to program.
Privately I was always interested in Linux, a long time ago I
started using Redhat, now Fedora. With Fedora 20
I decided to join and contribute to the test group, as far as I can.
I wish You all Merry Christmas and a Happy, Successful 2015.

Don't worry about it! We've all done the same before :) Merry
Christmas!
Yeah, if I listed all MY faults people would die of boredom before they 
finished reading the list! :-)


My background includes working on a telecommunication project (about 30 
years ago) about calculating Erlangs to determine busy hours, where I 
got to know far more details about how an international telephone call 
is set up than any sane man would ever want to know...



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: No print setup in Xfce desktop!!

[Gavin Flower]

On 22/11/14 10:18, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Tue, 2014-11-18 at 03:54 -0800, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX wrote:

A fedora desktop that can't configure printing?  That would seem to be a
major blocker.

Nothing to do with Xfce is a 'blocker'. Xfce is not a release-blocking
desktop.

Hmm...

I used to use xfce, when I initially fled from GNOME 3 (previously a 
long term GNOME 2 user) , I now use Mate.


Xfce and Mate are good alternatives to GNOME 3, I think that no one 
should be forced to use GNOME.  So I strongly feel that alternative 
desktops to GNOME should be properly supported.



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Announcing the release of Fedora 21 Beta!

[Gavin Flower]

On 06/11/14 03:57, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 07:26:55AM -0500, Joerg Lechner wrote:

what is confusing is that F21-Final-TC1 has 1.4GB and
the download link for prerelease says:
Download now!
1.4GB, ISO format image for 64bit-compatible PC
Therefore I don't know, the 1.3GB build beta RC4 or the 1.4GB build beta final 
TC1 is the prerelease build.
Anyway for me no problem I use always the newest build to look at.

RC comes after TC, and TCs can never be the release.

That said, I see your concern.

Awesomely, whether it is 1.3G or 1.4G is somewhat ambiguous. Storage is
usually measured with _decimal_ prefixes, so 1410334720 ÷ 10⁹ is 1.41G.
This includes DVD and Blu-Ray media, so there's some logic in using it.

Of course, may other things in computing are measured with binary
prefixes, so a 1410334720 ÷ 2³⁰ = 1.31GiB, which is probably what your
browser is telling you (although also probably not with the
for-nerds-only GiB prefix).

I tend to think that all reporting of bytes should be in powers of 2.  
So RAM and other storage should be in units of 1024*n.


Therefore reporting disk space in powers of 10 is essentially cheating, 
and at best misleading.


Also always using powers of 2 would be a lot more consistent.

But hey, I've only been programming since 1968, so what is my opinion 
worth!  :-)



Cheers,
Gavin


Cheers,
Gavin


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Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 21 Alpha Test Compose 6 (TC6) Available Now!

[Gavin Flower]

On 07/09/14 19:13, drago01 wrote:

On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 6:00 AM, Adam Williamson
adamw...@fedoraproject.org wrote:

On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:56 -0600, Orion Poplawski wrote:

On 09/05/2014 01:03 AM, Andre Robatino wrote:

As per the Fedora 21 schedule [1], Fedora 21 Alpha Test Compose 6 (TC6)
is now available for testing.

Minor nit, but can we try for consistent naming?  Thanks.  We've had:

F21a-TC1/
21-Alpha-T2/2014-07-21 01:59-
21-Alpha-TC3/   2014-08-23 03:32-
21-Alpha-TC4/   2014-08-26 04:58-
21-Alpha-TC5/   2014-08-30 04:38-

and now:

21_Alpha_TC6/   2014-09-05 06:06-

The changes are all intended, not accidental.

Because ?

Because !!!   :-)

Actually, I don't know and am also curious.

I prefer the hyphenated name.


Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: It is all about Adam!!

[Gavin Flower]

On 24/08/14 05:16, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Hi


On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 6:13 AM, Amita Sharma wrote:

http://fedoramagazine.org/edora-qa-adam-williamson/


Good work. Could we add a redirect to fedora-qa instead of edora-qa?

Rahul



I don't think that we really want to associate Adam with the Eddorians!
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman
(must be at least 20 years since I last read the Lensman series!)


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Re: Nasty Habits in Replying to Emails

[Gavin Flower]

On 28/04/14 19:13, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Mon, 2014-04-28 at 11:11 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote:

On 28/04/14 03:53, Scott Robbins wrote:

On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 05:04:09PM +0200, Karel Volný wrote:

Dne pátek, 25. dubna 2014 23:37:43 CEST, Adam Williamson  napsal(a):

In addition to what other people have said, there are people of more
than one gender reading this list...please be respectful.

true hermaphrodites?

K.

(ok, is that just my poor English allowing me to see the unintended
meaning, or is that sentence ambiguous also for native speakers?)

As a native speaker, yes, I can see it being ambiguous. Though, to be
honest, I didn't catch it until you pointed it out.
However, it is often non-native speakers who catch things like this.
This can be embarrassing when married to a non-native speaker.


Actually there are people with multiple distinct personalities, and some
people have personalities with different genders.  This can be caused by
extreme psychological abuse.

Also about 0.5% (percentage varies according to definitions used) of
children are born with genitalia that are not clearly identifiable as
being definitely exactly one of the two standard sexes (male  female).
Some of characteristics of both.

There are also people who are born definitely male physically, they get
married have children, then feel that they are really female and have an
operation to change their physical genitalia.

Gender is far more complicated than most people realize, and there are
more variations and combinations than I have outlined above!

Sure, but...we're now way, way, way, way off topic. I acknowledge my
initial wording was technically ambiguous, but I'd hope the meaning was
clear (as Leon correctly explained, I was suggesting it's not a good
idea to start a post with simply Gentlemen). I don't think an advanced
gender studies class is furthering the cause of Fedora in this
particular instance. :)

Fair enough!
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Re: Nasty Habits in Replying to Emails

[Gavin Flower]

On 28/04/14 20:42, Karel Volný wrote:
[...]
- thanks Gavin for adding something that I forgot about ... but I 
doubt that testing Fedora is a good therapy for mentally ill (who 
suffered heavy abuse); and as for the rest, changing the (percepted) 
gender seems quite common to me but I'm not aware of anyone who'd be 
identifying with more groups at once (some people prefer stay out of 
F/M division) ... so I apologize for considering just the biological 
condition and not the psychological; anyways my point was the language 
twist, I still think we shouldn't poke noses into people's underwear 
(or heads)


K.

I was seeking distraction, from some tedious debugging, and got carried 
away - rather than from any strong ideological motivation!



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Nasty Habits in Replying to Emails

[Gavin Flower]

On 28/04/14 03:53, Scott Robbins wrote:

On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 05:04:09PM +0200, Karel Volný wrote:

Dne pátek, 25. dubna 2014 23:37:43 CEST, Adam Williamson  napsal(a):

In addition to what other people have said, there are people of more
than one gender reading this list...please be respectful.

true hermaphrodites?

K.

(ok, is that just my poor English allowing me to see the unintended
meaning, or is that sentence ambiguous also for native speakers?)

As a native speaker, yes, I can see it being ambiguous. Though, to be
honest, I didn't catch it until you pointed it out.
However, it is often non-native speakers who catch things like this.
This can be embarrassing when married to a non-native speaker.

Actually there are people with multiple distinct personalities, and some 
people have personalities with different genders.  This can be caused by 
extreme psychological abuse.


Also about 0.5% (percentage varies according to definitions used) of 
children are born with genitalia that are not clearly identifiable as 
being definitely exactly one of the two standard sexes (male  female).  
Some of characteristics of both.


There are also people who are born definitely male physically, they get 
married have children, then feel that they are really female and have an 
operation to change their physical genitalia.


Gender is far more complicated than most people realize, and there are 
more variations and combinations than I have outlined above!



Cheers,
Gavin



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Re: Nasty Habits in Replying to Emails

[Gavin Flower]

On 28/04/14 08:59, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

On Fri, 2014-04-25 at 16:59 -0400, Mickey wrote:

[...]

I suggest you also read those guidlines about TOP Posting.

My apologies. As one who rails against top-posting I'm embarrassed to be
caught doing it. IIRC I used a non-Evo mailer to reply and was in a
rush. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

poc

No worries mate, we will just add you to the long list of people to be 
put against the wall, come the Revolution!  :-)



Cheers,
Gavin


(P.S. I'm fairly certain, that I'm also on the same list...)

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Re: Here we go again

[Gavin Flower]

On 28/04/14 13:50, poma wrote:

People are generally born with more ears than teeth,
Mister Freud.


poma



What I said is based on observations and scientific research.

I spent 3 years talking with a group of people, which included people 
with multiple personalities. There is actually a continuum between them 
and 'normal' people. For example when you drive, you are processing 
multiple inputs in parallel and making decisions without thinking 
consciously.


I came across a news article about an island were about 10% of children 
were born apparently female, and became definitely male at puberty. It 
was so common that people simple changed their children's clothing 
appropriately, and treated them as males. So I did some research.


A vet in a city where I lived, was in the news for formally changing his 
gender and having operations to make his body consistent, with the full 
support of his wife. I come across at least 2 similar items along the 
same lines. Research has found the wiring of the 'true' female mind is 
quite different to that of a 'true' man's, the women use more areas of 
both sides of the rain to solve a technical problem, whereas as men tend 
to use one part of one side. During pregnancy changing levels of 
hormones can cause brain development not to match the physical gender.


The trouble is that political agendas influence how people see reality. 
My wife is definitely feminine and we have a son, but she is one of the 
rare women with a Masters in computer science. I got wiped of the chess 
board by a toothless old woman at least 20 years my senior, and I am 
fairly strong social player who used to play in 'A' grade interclub 
chess teams. So the differences in the way brains work between men  
women should not be used to try and 'prove' that women should not do 
certain jobs because they should be reserved for men, or vice versa – 
nor should 'political correctness' be allowed to claim there are not 
fundamental differences between the sexes that go beyond the physical 
differences!


As for Freud, due to the nature of society of his day, he was forced to 
couch his conclusions about what he observed in terms that were 
'political correct' for his time. Plus our basic understanding of how 
the brain worked was extremely primitive then compared to what we know 
now. So even if he had been able to freely express himself, without 
having to conform, he would still have been way of the mark in some areas.


So simply because what I wrote conflicts with your notion of reality 
does not mean I'm wrong. Note that reality tends to be more nuanced  
complicated than we can easily deal with, and society as a whole takes 
even longer to adapt. For example, only recently did Germany allow a 
third option for the sex of a baby, and most databases still implicitly 
assume that people are either definitely male or definitely female.



Cheers,
Gavin

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Re: any report of fedup f19-f20?

[Gavin Flower]

On 20/12/13 06:38, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2013-12-19 at 05:08 -0500, Temlakos wrote:

[...]

long time. It wasn't frozen. The update ran well last time. But I
probably would run it when I had to be away from it anyway. You see,
in America we have a saying: A watched teapot never boils.
It's an old English saying in fact :)

Even an unwatched _*teapot*_ should not boil!

You mean a _*kettle*_?

I am English born.


Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: any report of fedup f19-f20?

[Gavin Flower]

On 20/12/13 12:21, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Fri, 2013-12-20 at 10:39 +1300, Gavin Flower wrote:

On 20/12/13 06:38, Adam Williamson wrote:


On Thu, 2013-12-19 at 05:08 -0500, Temlakos wrote:

[...]

long time. It wasn't frozen. The update ran well last time. But I
probably would run it when I had to be away from it anyway. You see,
in America we have a saying: A watched teapot never boils.
It's an old English saying in fact :)

Even an unwatched teapot should not boil!

You mean a kettle?

I am English born.

I'd actually always heard it as A watched pot never boils - not a
teapot, just a pot in general.

Adam,  I think you are right!

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Re: any report of fedup f19-f20?

[Gavin Flower]

Can there be anything more important than the correct way to make tea???

On 20/12/13 12:39, Philippe LeCavalier wrote:

Are you guys overtired or something? ;)

Thanks, Phil




On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com 
mailto:awill...@redhat.com wrote:


On Fri, 2013-12-20 at 10:39 +1300, Gavin Flower wrote:
 On 20/12/13 06:38, Adam Williamson wrote:

  On Thu, 2013-12-19 at 05:08 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
 [...]
  long time. It wasn't frozen. The update ran well last time. But I
  probably would run it when I had to be away from it anyway.
You see,
  in America we have a saying: A watched teapot never boils.
  It's an old English saying in fact :)
 Even an unwatched teapot should not boil!

 You mean a kettle?

 I am English born.

I'd actually always heard it as A watched pot never boils - not a
teapot, just a pot in general.
--
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Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin
. net
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Re: any report of fedup f19-f20?

[Gavin Flower]

On 20/12/13 12:51, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Fri, 2013-12-20 at 12:44 +1300, Gavin Flower wrote:

Can there be anything more important than the correct way to make
tea???

Sure - vim versus emacs!

Possibly a close second...

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Re: any report of fedup f19-f20?

[Gavin Flower]

On 20/12/13 12:50, Gavin Flower wrote:

On 20/12/13 12:51, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Fri, 2013-12-20 at 12:44 +1300, Gavin Flower wrote:

Can there be anything more important than the correct way to make
tea???

Sure - vim versus emacs!

Possibly a close second...

Then again, some people might consider /the correct direction to turn 
the teapot in the Southern Hemisphere/, or /precisely how to hold one's 
finger when drinking from a teacup/, as being more important than /vim 
versus emacs arguments/!
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Re: xfce does not remember saved sessions on Fedora 20

[Gavin Flower]

On 17/12/13 22:46, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

On 12/16/2013 11:38 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:

I'm still scratching my head over the other applications not
saving/restoring correctly,


Well, some of these obviously are Gnome3 regressions:

Next bug filed: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1043817

Ralf


The whole of GNOME 3 is a regression!

I used to use GNOME 2 exclusively.
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Re: Criterion revision proposal: KDE default applications

[Gavin Flower]

On 15/12/13 17:41, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Sat, 2013-12-14 at 22:27 -0500, Richard Ryniker wrote:


Has Fedora QA discussed how much effort they should or can invest in
organization and facilitation of others' test activities?  Direct
testing scales (approximately) linearly with number of people, but
education, organization, and leadership has the potential to scale at
greater multiples.

|---|
| Great opportunity!  Become a Fedora test franchisee.  We'll provide   |
| directions, training, and all the materials you need, so you too can  |
| participate in this fast-moving field.  Gain experience, recruit  |
| others, become a Test Manager and train new Testers.  With 10 or  |
| more Testers, select your own Test Managers (each of whom will direct |
| at least five Testers) and advance to the Test Director level.  With  |
| five Test Managers, become a Test Executive...|
|---|

It's a cute idea, but I'm firmly of the opinion that stuff like this
just doesn't _work_ in a project like Fedora. It's a cliche that geeks
and engineers aren't huge fans of 'bureaucracy' and 'management', and
this is pure management - drawing up a nice little hierarchical org
chart and giving people job titles. Does the Test Executive get a corner
office and a nice chair? :) I kid, but you get the point. I don't know
of a F/OSS project which has a strict pyramid structure and cutesy job
titles like this, and that's for a reason: the whole F/OSS is a
meritocracy / F/OSS is a do-ocracy thing has its own problem of bias
and so on, but it is a _fairly_ accurate reflection of how F/OSS work
actually happens in one respect: it's mostly the case that the work is
done by the people who show up, and there usually isn't some kind of
obvious hierarchy like you describe. I mean, we don't have Test
Executives and Test Directors and Testers inside the QA group, so why
would we expect it to work for other groups to do it?

The general idea of trying to get other groups more involved in testing
their own stuff is obviously a good one, but I don't think that's the
right approach to achieve it :)

I don't know...

Possibly charge a lot of money, give out fancy certificates, and ensure 
they have status and no real responsibilities!



Cheers,
Gavin

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Re: Criterion revision proposal: KDE default applications

[Gavin Flower]

On 14/12/13 12:49, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Hi


On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 4:58 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:



Well, then there's the problem. We can't have release criteria
that say
we really stand behind the package sets installed from the DVD if we
don't.


That is true however the solution is not to weaken the release 
criteria but decide  a) do we need the DVD anymore  b) if we need it, 
whether there is anything against trimming down the default package 
sets to be consistent with what is included in the live images. With 
the new model, I think the right answer is to drop the DVD image 
entirely but b) is the minimum we should do.


Rahul


I use use DVD's to initially load the system, sometimes I've given 
copies to others.


Possibly I should again try a net install?


Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: TC5 at Caddyshack

[Gavin Flower]

On 06/12/13 13:36, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX wrote:
[...]

What happened to the penguins during boot-up?  I miss them.

[...]

We MUST have our penguins, or at least one!  :-)



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Joining Fedora QA

[Gavin Flower]

On 05/12/13 06:55, Barneedhar wrote:

Hi guys,

My name is Barneedhar, an undergrad student living in Chennai, India.
I have been using Fedora for the past couple of months and have been
wanting to contribute back to the community. So, I thought I might put
my hands for some QA work.

I have been using Ubuntu for more than 3 years now before I switched
to Fedora. I am also an Ubuntu member and one of the moderators on Ask
Ubuntu. I also have some menial experience with QA work when on Ubuntu
and can also help with bug triaging.

My IRC nick is jokerdino and hope some of you remember me from there.
Here's me hoping to have a good time at Fedora QA team.

--
Thanks,
Barneedhar.

Hi Barneedhar,

Welcome!

Having previous experience with Ubuntu will give you a fresh viewpoint.

I'm curious as to your interest in fedora after being so heavily 
involved in Ubuntu.  What sparked your desire to get involved in Fedora QA?




Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: A different way of installing Fedora

[Gavin Flower]

On 29/09/13 10:10, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:




On 28 September 2013 08:39, Clyde E. Kunkel 
clydekunkel7...@verizon.net mailto:clydekunkel7...@verizon.net wrote:


On 09/27/2013 09:53 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 08:49:51PM -0500, dkrawchuk wrote:

I agree.  I find these digressions interesting and
informative.


They _really do_ keep coming up. What if we create a Fedora
Old-Timers list
for this kind of discussion? I'm not even kidding -- I'll join.


Interesting idea; however, youngsters probably would not join
and would therefor lose the benefit of our experience, not to
mention the enjoyment of our tall tales. :-)

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Put in a name of the list (#fedora-oldfarts is not going to be it), 
what the topics are (social communication of old time systems) and 
what the general rules are (people will talk about computers that are 
pre-1993 and what work was required to run them).


and I will create a list.
--
Stephen J Smoogen.




Hi Stephen,

How about:
#fedora-ancient

Anything relating to computing 20 or more years ago.  Rather than 
pre-1993: so in 2021, people can talk about anything up to 2001.


Not just for hardware  software, but also the changing culture  public 
perceptions.


Also anything that compared 'modern day' with the 'old-days', would also 
be valid, as well as which companies were dominant and why.


I think people should also be encouraged to discuss how they got into 
computers, and what training  experience they thought was relevant - 
even if this breaks the '20-year rule'!



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: A different way of installing Fedora

[Gavin Flower]

On 29/09/13 14:37, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Fri, 2013-09-27 at 20:49 -0500, dkrawchuk wrote:

I agree.  I find these digressions interesting and informative.

I suppose it's just me, then!
Life would not be worth living, if we all had exactly the same 
interests!  :-)


Viva la difference!


Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: maintaining minimal

[Gavin Flower]

On 29/09/13 14:47, Adam Williamson wrote:
[...]
Soft deps could help with this, but the Fedora package management 
folks have been opposed to them for a long time. They have some valid 
reasons; personally I'm pro-soft deps, but it doesn't look like it'll 
happen soon. 

Maybe we should have semi-soft links?
Ducks, and runs away _VERY_ quickly!


[Smiley's omitted, due to budget constraints.]
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Re: A different way of installing Fedora

[Gavin Flower]

On 27/09/13 19:02, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Thu, 2013-09-26 at 16:23 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote:

On 26/09/13 15:53, Samuel Sieb wrote:


On 09/25/2013 06:13 PM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX wrote:

My concern is wether this procedure results in a kernel that is
less optimized for the CPU it is running on than if Fedora had
been installed directly on that machine.

I don't know enough about Fedora installation to know what,
if any, processor related optimizations are made in the install
instead of boot time.


I don't think it makes any difference now.  Years ago (not sure how
many), there was both the 386 and 686 kernels and that was decided
by the installer.  Now, the only possible difference if you aren't
installing 64-bit is whether you get the PAE kernel or not.  And I
don't know how that's decided or even if there is a choice.

There also used to be a distinction between kernels compiled for a
single core processor and ones for a machine with multiple cores -
though at that time (AFAIR) CPU chips normally had only one core, so
we are talking about motherboards with slots for 2 or more CPU chips.
Also, I think they were all 32 bit, at least the ones I might be able
to afford

That hasn't been the case for rather a long time.

I've been around a long time... :-)

The second computer I programmed (using FORTRAN IV) was an IBM 1130.

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Re: A different way of installing Fedora

[Gavin Flower]

On 28/09/13 05:18, Clyde E. Kunkel wrote:

On 09/27/2013 01:05 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Fri, 2013-09-27 at 22:06 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote:
snip


I do find the 'who's been

using computers longer?' competitions that seem to be ensuing on all
sorts of lists lately a bit tiresome :)



Why tiresome?  It is a bit interesting.  Way better than some of the 
vitriol showing up on the lists.  I remember programming a RemRand 
steel drum memory computer using a teletype and punched paper tape.  I 
also remember seeing a U-2 in use running a single application 
(civilian payroll) at a Navy facility.


None used Fedora.


Yes,it great to find not everyone here is a Johny-Come-Lately! :-)

Some people start programming young these days!  I'm coaching an 11 year 
old in Java, he has his own Linux box.  He got into Java by himself when 
he was 10, despite neither of his parents being in IT. His mother is a 
friend of my wife's, and he suddenly phoned up in February asking if I 
could help him.  I have introduced him to PostgreSQL  SQL, and later I 
think I will also get him into C and other languages.  I was 18 before I 
had a chance to write programs - I think he will better than I ever was, 
before he is 18!



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: A different way of installing Fedora

[Gavin Flower]

On 28/09/13 13:53, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 08:49:51PM -0500, dkrawchuk wrote:

I agree.  I find these digressions interesting and informative.

They _really do_ keep coming up. What if we create a Fedora Old-Timers list
for this kind of discussion? I'm not even kidding -- I'll join.


Possible there should be a minimum age limit, say 60?  :-)

Hotshot teenage developers may think anyone over 30 should post there!!!

I am now sure that there are older people than me on this list, and I'm 
also sure that there are people in their 20's that are far more 
technically capable than I ever was - I was pretty sure of the latter, 
even before I made my first post here.


Even ignoring the problems of implementing an age barrier, I think that 
even some of the younger ones may be interested.



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: MATE Desktop

[Gavin Flower]

On 27/09/13 05:11, Marcus Leech wrote:
I'm running MATE on F18, and find it is more pleasant than any of the 
Gnome 3 things.


on Sep 26, 2013, *Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX* c...@omen.com wrote:

For those of use who were relatively happy with Gnome 2
and not quite satisfied with some of the alternatives, I
would suggest taking (another) look at MATE in Heisenbug.

The combination of Google Chromium, VLC, and MATE
has created a pleasant desktop environment that has
has reduced the amount of time I run Windows 7 on my
office machine.

Try it, YMMV.

-- 
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX c...@omen.com mailto:c...@omen.com

www.omen.com http://www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430

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I originally fled from GNOME 3 (A triumph of Fashion over 
Functionality) to xfce, from F17 I started using mate (though I started 
looking at in F16).


I think mate should become the default desktop environment for Fedora.  
Fedora should not be dumbing down the user experience, please leave that 
to Apple  Microsoft.


If people want a brain dead desktop environment, they can always use 
Microsoft Window 8 metro...  :-)



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: A different way of installing Fedora

[Gavin Flower]

On 26/09/13 13:26, David wrote:

On 9/25/2013 9:13 PM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX wrote:

On 09/25/2013 05:45 PM, David wrote:

On 9/25/2013 7:19 PM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX wrote:

Several of my machies have SATA hot swap ports.
These make it easy to use smaller drives as backup media.

When RC4 came out I installed it on a 4 TB drive using an
older E6550 machine.  At my leisure I added lots of apps
and libs that I normally use.

Then I slipped that drive in my omen.com server and changed
the boot order to boot that drive.  I changed hostname and
domainname, restored some of my control files, and omen.com
was back on the air relatively quickly.

I was fortunate this procedure worked as netinst was unable to
install RC4 while running on the server.

This trick depends on Fedora apparently being able to make modest
adjustments to the machine environment on boot up.

Is this a valid procedure?


A valid procedure?

Hmm..

Sounds like a eclectic procedure and situation to me.


My concern is wether this procedure results in a kernel that is
less optimized for the CPU it is running on than if Fedora had
been installed directly on that machine.

I don't know enough about Fedora installation to know what,
if any, processor related optimizations are made in the install
instead of boot time.



More clearly said? Name two other people with your situation please.


This a procedure, that I might like to do something like.

I have a working F19 installation on a box with a Haswell processor. It 
would be good if I could clone that, boot the clone on a box with an 
older Intel processor (though also a quad core 64 bit processor) and 
make minor changes.


I suspect that there will be more than 3 people interested.


Cheers,
Gavin

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Re: A different way of installing Fedora

[Gavin Flower]

On 26/09/13 15:53, Samuel Sieb wrote:

On 09/25/2013 06:13 PM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX wrote:

My concern is wether this procedure results in a kernel that is
less optimized for the CPU it is running on than if Fedora had
been installed directly on that machine.

I don't know enough about Fedora installation to know what,
if any, processor related optimizations are made in the install
instead of boot time.

I don't think it makes any difference now.  Years ago (not sure how 
many), there was both the 386 and 686 kernels and that was decided by 
the installer.  Now, the only possible difference if you aren't 
installing 64-bit is whether you get the PAE kernel or not.  And I 
don't know how that's decided or even if there is a choice.
There also used to be a distinction between kernels compiled for a 
single core processor and ones for a machine with multiple cores - 
though at that time (AFAIR) CPU chips normally had only one core, so we 
are talking about motherboards with slots for 2 or more CPU chips.  
Also, I think they were all 32 bit, at least the ones I might be able to 
afford



Cheers,
Gavin

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Re: F20 anaconda progress bar

[Gavin Flower]

On 12/09/13 05:54, Richard Ryniker wrote:

On my last installation (TC4) anaconda's blue progress bar stalled at
approximately 40% while thousands of packages were installed.  I suspect
this is Working as Designed.  There is a continuing display of package
names as they are installed, as well as counts of installed packages and
total number of packages to be installed, therefore a user is not likely
to think the installation process is stuck just because there is no
movement of the progress bar.  The little slide show below the progress
bar also continues.

This does, however, give an impression the installer is a bit crude:
during the longest part of the installation process, there is no movement
of the progress bar.

If someone does see better behavior of the anaconda progress indicator,
please post to say it is my experience that is wacky.
I have observed the same as you.  I suspect it only gets updated after 
each stage of installation is completed.


I think there should be a progress bar for each stage, updating 
according to the number of micro-stages/files/bytes/... (as appropriate) 
processed. From memory, as the last install I did was for F19, there 
should be 4 bars labelled appropriately.  This way, not only would be 
people be aware of what stage the installation was at, but they would 
have an indication of the progress in the current stage, and what other 
stages were yet to be started.  Obviously, if 2 or more stage could be 
done in parallel, then those progress bars would be updated concurrently.


Moreimportantly, the progress bar (if there is only to be one) should be 
finer grained than up dating after each major stage.


Just my 2 pennies worth.


Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: systemd depends so heavily on a files it can not reboot

[Gavin Flower]

On 09/07/13 20:22, Gordon Messmer wrote:

On 07/08/2013 09:39 AM, John Reiser wrote:

1. Install a userid whose login shell is /usr/bin/sync
(or a script which does sync; sync)
2. Login as the sync user (twice, perhaps.)


Running sync multiple times doesn't have any particular purpose on Linux.
http://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/unix/TheLegendOfSync


I sync I know what youmean!

Seriously, thanks for the short history lesson, puts it all into 
perspective.



Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: Introduction

[Gavin Flower]

On 17/06/13 23:33, José Matos wrote:

On Friday 14 June 2013 19:49:43 Justin Reid wrote:

Currently my main programming language is Python, however I also know some
shell scripting, java and even the legacy Fortran 90. I'm currently
teaching myself C as well and will hopefully be applying that knowledge
soon also. In addition I know some basic SQL. I have found that QA is a
great way to learn how a system works so any tasks involving testing,
writing tools, or just managing bugs I will be willing to take on! I've
included a link to my LinkedIn profile if you want to know more about me
and what I do.

www.linkedin.com/pub/justin-reid/46/274/286/

Have a wonderful evening and I can't wait to get started soon,

Justin Lynn Reid

Welcome Justin,
I smiled when I saw the reference to legacy Fortran 90, since I am more 
used to the legacy when referring to Fortran 66 or even 77. :-)

Fortran 66, Legacy?? - the last FORTRAN that I used was FORTRAN IV! :-)
(I've actually seen FORTRAN II code)

Cheers,
Gavin



I any case I (we in this) hope that you enjoy the Fedora experience and 
we welcome your collaboration.

Regards,


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consider people with poor vision, was Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...[consider people with poor vision

[Gavin Flower]

On 15/06/13 16:22, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2013-06-14 12:53 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed:

[...]

Among the many other complaints other people have raised

about the installer, I don't recall one other person complaining about
text being too small.


Do you think people in the business of developing software or 
otherwise using a PC for most of any given work day are people whose 
vision is below average? I don't. I think quite the opposite, that 
those with poorer than average vision gravitate away from using a PC 
screen any more than they must, that many won't do it at all, and that 
few such people pursue occupations that require doing more than a 
little that requires using a PC. Net result is most in the puter 
business, including FOSS software testers, have both better than 
average vision, and more importantly, little or no understanding of or 
appreciation for the difficulties encountered by those who see less 
well. People aren't complaining because the people doing are almost 
entirely made up of a class of people with good vision, people who do 
it because they don't have undue visual obstacles to doing it.

[...]
For several years, I often had very misty vision because the layer of 
cells above my cornea could not handle moisture properly. Sometimes it 
was so bad that I could hardly read the keyboard at 300mm, and glancing 
around the screen meant I could eassily miss things.  I remember 
concentrating hard to resolve whether a character was a comma ',' or a 
full stop '.' (similarly 'a'  'e') - not good for a software developer.


I have had cataract surgery, and surgery to replace those layer of cells 
from grafts.  So now I can see the screen quite fine with glasses - even 
from a metre away, whereas previously I needed to be at 600mm or closer 
depending on how misty my eyes were.


Well I am 62 and still doing software development - so please do not put 
important things in small print and avoid dark grey text on a light grey 
background etc. (I can read it if I notice it, but I might miss its 
significant if I just glance at the screen).  When my eyes were misty, I 
often recognised things by their overall shape even when individual 
characters where fuzzy.


I am lucky (I know people who were a lot younger than I am, with much 
worse vision), I now can reduce fonts to less than their default sizes 
and see quite well, though I notice I tend to make browser text bigger. 
For me, what helped most (prior to my eye surgeries) was getting a 30 
monitor. Now the biggest nuisance is swapping glasses: one for my 
laptop, one for my monitor, and no glasses required for walking around  
driving.


In conclusion, there is a whole continuum between perfect vision  being 
blind.  So for really important things, especially if considered 
unexpected (either by new people - or people familiar with that screen, 
but something important has changed)  be carefully how the text is 
presented.



Cheers,
Gavin

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F19 installer not giving an option for English GB (or UK)

[Gavin Flower]

I actually live in New Zealand, not the US so I would prefer a different 
language for the desktop.  So since I am used to British spelling. I 
would like to be able to set the language for the desktop as English-GB.


I think that the above should be remedied in F19.

///

Changes that I think would be useful are (but I suspect that these would 
have to wait for F20):


Since my wife is Chinese, and my son is studying French, I would also 
like to include French  English during installation - one used to  be 
able to do this.


In fact the fine grain control of what is selected at installation has 
disappeared with the new system, and I think it should be reinstated.




Cheers,
Gavin
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Re: F19 installer not giving an option for English GB (or UK)

[Gavin Flower]

On 14/06/13 10:54, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 10:33 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote:

I actually live in New Zealand, not the US so I would prefer a different
language for the desktop.  So since I am used to British spelling. I
would like to be able to set the language for the desktop as English-GB.

I think that the above should be remedied in F19.

Er, I see a English (United Kingdom) on the first page of anaconda,
and have done ever since the re-design.

My treacherous eyes.

I saw English US at the top, and no sign of English-GB nearby, so 
ASSuMEd it wasn't there!


May I dare suggest that the English-US be put in its natural place? If 
it was, then my poor brain/eyesight would not have been confused.





///

Changes that I think would be useful are (but I suspect that these would
have to wait for F20):

Since my wife is Chinese, and my son is studying French, I would also
like to include French  English during installation - one used to  be
able to do this.

This is available from the Language Support spoke of the installer. It
is not shown on the live installer - I don't quite recall the reason,
but it's intentional; I think its behaviour was buggy or too confusing
in a live context.

PEBKAC error, with me in the chair!  :-(

I simply did not notice the line at the top mentioning additional languages!

Just wondering if using my laptop, with the screen to the left of my 
main computer, means I'm missing things.  If so, I'll simply have to 
look more carefully!





In fact the fine grain control of what is selected at installation has
disappeared with the new system, and I think it should be reinstated.

This is too vague, I cannot tell what you mean.
On the software selection spoke, you can select broad categories, but 
you can't pick  chose within those categories.
In the old system: you were able, to some extent, to pick  chose within 
categories.


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Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...

[Gavin Flower]

On 14/06/13 11:08, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 06/14/13 06:57, Gavin Flower wrote:

On 14/06/13 10:43, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 10:23 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote:

I think it would be a very good idea to be able to systematically check,  
change settings if necessary - so some way of it systematically presenting the 
spokes would be good (in this aspect, the old way was better). I know I keep 
forgetting to set the correct tome zone! Who lives in New York? 'Everybody' I know 
lives in Auckland! I think it would probably be better _NOT_ to set a default time 
zone - joking aside, most people do not live in New York.

Since Final TC1 or so, it now tries to pick the correct timezone by 
geolocation. It seems pretty accurate from the results reported so far.

Well I am physically in Auckland, New Zealand- but I may have an IPv4 address 
associated with Christchurch, New Zealand (blame my ISP!).  Either way, I am 
definitely not in New York!

Possibly, people should be given an option to either confirm or to change?

Ahhh  There certainly is the option to change...  On theInstallation Summary page there 
is a Date  Time option to change it

Anyway, what do you get when you go to this URL (no trailing slashes)

https://geoip.stg.fedoraproject.org/city

or

https://geoip.stg.fedoraproject.org/city?ip=18.0.0.1Where you replace the 
IP address with your public IP address.


{region_name: Auckland, area_code: 0, latitude: -36.86669921875, 
region: E7, dma_code: 0, country_name: New Zealand, 
postal_code: null, city: Auckland, longitude: 
174.76669311523438, time_zone: Pacific/Auckland, metro_code: 0, 
country_code: NZ, country_code3: NZL}


Interesting.  A couple of years ago, an online map put us in Christchurch.

However, the F19 TC3 installer gave me a time zone of New York!



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Re: F19 installer not giving an option for English GB (or UK)

[Gavin Flower]

On 14/06/13 11:46, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 11:34 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote:

On 14/06/13 10:54, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 10:33 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote:

I actually live in New Zealand, not the US so I would prefer a different
language for the desktop.  So since I am used to British spelling. I
would like to be able to set the language for the desktop as English-GB.

I think that the above should be remedied in F19.

Er, I see a English (United Kingdom) on the first page of anaconda,
and have done ever since the re-design.

My treacherous eyes.

I saw English US at the top, and no sign of English-GB nearby, so
ASSuMEd it wasn't there!

May I dare suggest that the English-US be put in its natural place? If
it was, then my poor brain/eyesight would not have been confused.

It is in its usual place, but the pre-selected language - whatever it is
- is taken out of the scrollable list and presented as a special 'top
entry' (there is a horizontal line between it and the scrollable list
denoting this).
Then I think it just be a list with checkboxes, with possibly a line at 
the top saying how many languages have been selected.

If geolocation picks a different pre-selected language,
English (US) appears in the list with the rest, in the position you'd
expect it to be in. This is a standard GTK+ widget design, I believe.

According to
https://geoip.stg.fedoraproject.org/city
I am in Auckland, New Zealand!

Is therefore the selection of English-US a statement of how much control 
the US has over NZ?  :-)


 Maybe the selection of English-US  is actually a bug? 
Or more specifically, not picking up that I am in Auckland, New Zealand 
- as it affects both language  time zone.

The list itself is in alphabetical order, but it's a rather rough
alphabetical order - it doesn't seem consistent whether it's sorted
according to the native or Anglicised form of the name. So
'Deutsch' (German) is sorted with the Ds (not Gs), and
'Ellenika' (Greek) is sorted with the Es (not Gs), but
'Nihongo' (Japanese) is sorted with the Js (not Ns)...I think perhaps it
depends whether whatever library's doing the sorting is capable of
figuring out the appropriate alphabetical sort for the character set of
the native name of the language or not, and it can't for 日本語, so it
just gives up and goes with the Anglicised name. But I'm guessing.


In fact the fine grain control of what is selected at installation has
disappeared with the new system, and I think it should be reinstated.

This is too vague, I cannot tell what you mean.

On the software selection spoke, you can select broad categories, but
you can't pick  chose within those categories.
In the old system: you were able, to some extent, to pick  chose within
categories.

This is intentional and not going to change: the installer team just
didn't feel it made sense to spend a lot of time maintaining what was
essentially an entire graphical package manager in the installer
codebase. There are several of them in the distribution, after all. The
point of the installer is to deploy a functional system, and then you
can fiddle with your package set.

If you absolutely must deploy a specific package set, you can use a
kickstart; kickstarts can still specify the full range of stuff relating
to repos and package sets they've always been able to, including single
package granularity.


Thanks for the detailed reply!

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Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...

[Gavin Flower]

On 14/06/13 12:57, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 06/14/13 08:28, Gavin Flower wrote:

Well, I configured the wireless network prior to get to the installation summary 
with all the spokes in the previous screen, and it correctly got the assigned host 
name  IPv4 address.  So I asumed the network was up.  Also from that point on, 
I did nothing explicit to do with networks, and I has able to ssh in after reboot!

Ahhh  wirelessI only tested a wireless install one time and recall 
there was a problem in that area.  Didn't go back and investigate or file a 
bugzilla.  :-(

Maybe you should at this point.


see: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=974346

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