Re: [tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[Eneko Gotzon]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 10:39 AM, @TiddlyTweeter 
wrote:

> *if we don't offer a simple procedural way… the coming November changes
> will seriously adversely effect non-DIY TW users on Firefox.*
>

​It would be ​great to find an option that allows both code savvies relish
tinkering TW while also allowing humble users –like me– enjoy TW in its
most basic features & go learning, step by step, about its most advanced
ones.

​Just if possible, if desired…​ I understand TW belongs to its (great)
developpers.

​Take care.
-- 
Eneko Gotzon Ares
enekogot...@gmail.com

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

This reply was sparked by Alfonso, but is really aimed at everyone 
concerned for folk just wanting to get on and use TW in Firefox. 

One of the great things about this group is that many, if not most, people 
here are "tinkers" or happy doing "bricolage". What Mr Ruston has elsewhere 
called DIY users (he differentiates them into 2 levels, basic DIY & 
advanced DIY).

In truth, my interest was slightly differently focused in the initial post. 
It was on a "best bet" to extend Firefox use for TiddlyWiki for "ordinary" 
users as well. Folk who won't know either know where Unbranded Firefox is, 
and want neither the uncertainty or complexity of whether it might work on 
November or not, of the confusion of having to maintain more than one 
Firefox install. There are other things equally enticing for DIY users, 
like PaleMoon. The options are huge, but nearly every route has caveats 
that are a turn-off if you aren't DIY. 

*My concern if we don't offer a "best bet" in a simple procedural way then 
the coming November changes will seriously adversely effect non-DIY TW 
users on Firefox.* 

Lets see. 

Come November if we get queries about Firefox failing you could point back 
to this thread.

Best wishes
Josiah

Alfonso Arciniega wrote:
>
> Allow me to further explain. All you need to do is download an updated 
> Unbranded every time a new version comes up; up and until version 56 ...
>
> At the end, we do not know yet if the Unbranded version, which now allows 
> every extension you throw at it, would be limited to Web Extensions.
>

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[Alfonso Arciniega]

Thanks for your input, Josiah, 

Allow me to further explain. All you need to do is download an updated 
Unbranded every time a new version comes up; up and until version 56, which 
will be more advanced and secure than the current ESR v.52 anyways. When 
the official FF v.57 comes out, you may have two versions of FF, the 
Unbranded v.56 and all the official FF v.57 and beyond (and also the ESR 
v.52 as well, why not). Note that you may have both versions if you just 
unzip the Unbranded (just don't try to run both at the same time).

At the end, we do not know yet if the Unbranded version, which now allows 
every extension you throw at it, would be limited to Web Extensions. 
Hopefully it will keep allowing all sorts of extensions for at least a year 
or so. Note that this is not an official FF version just because it allows 
significant customization and is directed at the testing of extensions, not 
for regular use. There is absolutely no support or responsibility from FF 
if things go wrong, but if you use it just for TW for FF, nothing could go 
wrong as it is the same code as the official FF.

You cannot find Unbranded promoted anywhere; and I found the link to 
download it by chance. Why not take advantage of this? Go and try it for 
yourself.

Cheers,

Alfonso

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 2:53:27 AM UTC-6, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Ciao Alfonso
>
> Great you got something that works for now!
>
> But I think you will have problems,
>

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Alfonson

Great you got something that works for now!

But I think you will have problems, if you need to use TiddlyFox beyond The 
Hell of mid-November (Firefox 57) when support for everything that is NOT a 
WebExtension ends. 

As far as I understand it the Unbranded Firefox is in step with standard 
Firefox. Right? *If so you won't be able to avoid the 57 saga*.

My point with pushing FirefoxESR was only that it will hopefully *extend 
the life of TiddlyFox to at least March 2018---with proper security 
releases*. 

*My thought was to switch to it now rather than be a firefighter later.*

Best wishes
Josiah

Alfonso Arciniega wrote:
>
> The best option to me is Unbranded Nightly Firefox, by far.
>

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[Alfonso Arciniega]

The best option to me is Unbranded Nightly Firefox, by far. I am using it 
for over two months now and it is working as a charm. I am using the 32-bit 
version even if I have 64-bit Windows, to be able to run any extension I 
want. Running version 54.0 now, though you have to upgrade it manually as 
unbranded versions do not upgrade by themselves. Just the fact that this 
version is up-gradable makes it a better option than ESR.

Try it for yourself. Go to:
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Add-ons/Extension_Signing 

Go down the page until you see "Unbranded Builds"

If you do not want to install it, you may want to try it out running from 
an USB:
Unzipping the .exe file (extracting it with 7-Zip) produces a setup file 
and a directory with all the FF files. Copy the core directory to your USB 
or any directory of your preference.
Close your regular FF and open the FF version in your USB. That's it.
Most extensions, including TW for Firefox 2.0.2 should work.
You may want to keep both versions of FF.

Have fun!

Alfonso Arciniega

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[stefct4]

On Wednesday, July 5, 2017 at 8:54:34 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> ste...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> When running TiddlyDesktop, at least they wouldn't be tempted to use it 
>> for visiting other websites ...
>>
>
> I'm trying to reply here as politely as possible. But isn't that the point 
> of being connected to the internet? :-) LOL
>
> Of course it is, but if a newbie uses TiddlyFox in an old Firefox, they 
might think "I should stick with this version of FF rather than updating 
it, because otherwise I might not be able to run TiddlyFox anymore". In 
this case, they might continue doing all of their other stuff in that 
browser as well (online banking, shopping...), which might be considered 
bad security practice.

On the other hand, if you tell users "You can always run TiddlyDesktop in 
order to save and archive your TiddlyWiki properly, and you're therefore 
free to update your browser", this problem might be avoided. 

Nerds who are used to juggle different browsers and who know how to watch 
out for potential security issues are exempted from this, of course ;-).

Cheers,

Stef

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

ste...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> When running TiddlyDesktop, at least they wouldn't be tempted to use it 
> for visiting other websites ...
>

I'm trying to reply here as politely as possible. But isn't that the point 
of being connected to the internet? :-) LOL

Best wishes
Josiah 

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[stefct4]

Hi Josiah, 

On Wednesday, July 5, 2017 at 5:57:20 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>
> TiddlyDesktop is indeed very good. 
>
> But (1) its not been updated for a while (Dec 2015). (2) You lose the 
> advantages of the rich environment of Firefox (IF you are into it). 
>

I wonder whether TiddlyDesktop might be the "safer" recommendation for 
newbies, though. If they hear "Firefox ESR", they might not understand its 
particularities and therefore believe that any older version of Firefox 
(even if outdated and possibly insecure) would do. 

When running TiddlyDesktop, at least they wouldn't be tempted to use it for 
visiting other websites as well (because this is not possible, as far as I 
know).

Cheers,

Stef

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

>
> ste...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> What about TiddlyDesktop? It comes with its own web browser, which might 
>> be preferable to installing a particular version of another browser only 
>> because of TiddlyWiki. I never used TiddlyFox, but TiddlyDesktop works well 
>> for me.
>>
>
Footnote...

I think TiddlyDesktop can have some issues on rendering HTML (maybe because 
its not been updated for a while?) .. for example  ... its showing this ...


 
rather than this, it should be ...



Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Stef

TiddlyDesktop is indeed very good. 

But (1) its not been updated for a while (Dec 2015). (2) You lose the 
advantages of the rich environment of Firefox (IF you are into it). 

I don't use TiddlyWiki as THE thing. I use TiddlyWiki as A PAGE *alongside 
other web pages* to get the maximal benefit from it in a normal browser.

Out-of-normal-browser showing & saving scenarios are great for SURVIVAL. 
They are also very good when you are just authoring local files that need 
little interplay. Then the isolation is, in a way, a positive benefit. 

But to limit TiddlyWiki to that is a bit of a cul-de-sac in many 
situations. 

I think its depends a lot on your use case whether TiddlyDesktop is enough 
of a salve. 

In this thread I was mainly thinking about a wide general situation and 
making a calculated guess for saving until Firefox gives that up.

Very best wishes
Josiah

ste...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> What about TiddlyDesktop? It comes with its own web browser, which might 
> be preferable to installing a particular version of another browser only 
> because of TiddlyWiki. I never used TiddlyFox, but TiddlyDesktop works well 
> for me.
>

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Re: [tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

RETWEET.

Eneko Gotzon wrote:
>
> ​Thank you very much :)
>

 wrote:
>> Joe Bloggs may well benefit from this approach
>
>

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Re: [tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[Eneko Gotzon]

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 11:59 AM, @TiddlyTweeter 
wrote:

> Joe Bloggs may well benefit from this approach


​Thank you very much :)

-- 
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enekogot...@gmail.com

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[stefct4]

Hi,

On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 11:00:02 AM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>
> *My opinion, the BEST BET to prolong your ability to save via TiddlyFox on 
> desktops is to switch over to FirefoxESR.*
>
> What about TiddlyDesktop? It comes with its own web browser, which might 
be preferable to installing a particular version of another browser only 
because of TiddlyWiki. I never used TiddlyFox, but TiddlyDesktop works well 
for me.

Cheers, 

Stef  

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Re: [tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Danielo & all

I find that the PouchDB / CouchDB combo in NoteSelf (combo of "in browser 
saving" & "cloud sync") I think HIGHLY RELEVANT to the increasing problems 
with overwrite file-saving in browsers TiddlyWiki is hitting. 

Neither TiddlyFox not TiddlyChrome are likely to work in standard browsers 
by this time next year.

What I like about NoteSelf is it seems to solve many issues. Not least, the 
approach opens the way to simple (database) saving in MOST browsers. And it 
requires NO browser add-ons or browser hacks.

The sign-up to Cloudant is the most complicated part of NoteSelf I think. 
But it works locally even if you never sign-up to a cloud storage 
sync-base. 

Joe Bloggs may well benefit from this approach. 

Best wishes
Josiah

Danielo Rodríguez wrote:
>
> I never missed Firefox neither tiddlyfox since the first working version 
> of NoteSelf. 
>

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

As is, TiddlyServer, is not what most normal users would call a "desktop 
app". Its an assemblage of stuff that medium to advanced level "DIY users" 
can cope with. Its not for Joe Bloggs who would have to go through sagas to 
get it running to experience what TiddlyWiki can do. *That's a non-runner 
for "newbies", IMO*.

Arlen's work is one reliable way to keep TiddlyWiki usable *beyond the 
death of simple in-browser overwrite saving* and I think is very good. 

Over in the thread  Should TiddlyServer include TiddlyWiki and Node? 
 Arlen 
seeks feedback on the idea of making it simpler. There is no feedback yet. 

The thought there is that TiddlyServer has as little cruft as possible. IMO 
that would bring it closer to a "desktop app." Its still gonna be a bit of 
a saga for most "newbies", but better than to do the npm route that is, 
IMO, seriously alien land for Joe Bloggs.

My two cents.
Josiah

Mark S. wrote:
>
> Unless I'm doing things the hard way, there's more to it than a simple 
> desktop app.
>
 

> Jed Carty wrote:
>>
>> It is called tiddlyserver, but it is just a desktop application you start 
>> and then either make a wiki or select the one you want to open, it isn't 
>> any more difficult than any other desktop application.
>>
>

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Re: [tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[Danielo Rodríguez]

I never missed Firefox neither tiddlyfox since the first working version of 
NoteSelf. I'll never go back to mess with files ,outdated copies and so on. 

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Re: [tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[Eneko Gotzon]

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 12:12 AM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> and then finally start using TW…
> so maybe there's yet another step I missed…
>

​As humble user I have not​ any right to ask for something to our wonderful
developers, but if TW is aimed to be used beyond –those awesome–
programming experts, it is mandatory to keep it as simple, stable & secure
as possible, & always framed in a long-term strategy.

I apologize for this suggestion and request.

Thank you very​ much for all your generous & amazing work.

Take care & enjoy life :)

-- 
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enekogot...@gmail.com

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Unless I'm doing things the hard way, there's more to it than a simple 
desktop app.

You have to install npm. 

Then you install node.js

Then you find a directory, download the release code, extract a file, 
configure a config file, drop to a command box, and run an install routine.

Then you run a server command, copy or memorize a long address (if you 
don't think it's long then you aren't a newbie), open your browser, copy in 
the address,  drag and drop the fixit to your menu bar, navigate to your TW 
file,  activate the fixit,  and then finally start using TW.

Except at the moment it doesn't save for me, so maybe there's yet another 
step I missed.

I would say that all that for a newbie is going to be pretty daunting. 
Assuming we want newbies, then maybe there's no perfect solution and it's 
just a progressive thing. Someone who is new will start by using tiddlyspot 
or using the default save, and then over time can "upgrade" to FirefoxESR 
or tiddlyserver. Of course, FESR is going to disappear eventually. So I'm 
still thinking that a specialty launcher that smooths the difficulties of 
the default save might be a long term solution. 

BTW, when did the clock on that 25 year goal start ticking?

Thanks,
Mark

On Tuesday, July 4, 2017 at 1:28:39 PM UTC-7, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> It is called tiddlyserver, but it is just a desktop application you start 
> and then either make a wiki or select the one you want to open, it isn't 
> any more difficult than any other desktop application.
>

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[Jed Carty]

It is called tiddlyserver, but it is just a desktop application you start 
and then either make a wiki or select the one you want to open, it isn't 
any more difficult than any other desktop application.

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Josiah says that the default save is too much for newbies. I can't imagine 
then what newbies would think about running their own server.

Mark

On Tuesday, July 4, 2017 at 3:10:28 AM UTC-7, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> I think that just running tiddlyserver may be a better option than having 
> to get a special version of firefox, and then you don't have to worry about 
> the browser you are using.
>

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[Jed Carty]

I think that just running tiddlyserver may be a better option than having 
to get a special version of firefox, and then you don't have to worry about 
the browser you are using.

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

I think so. There's nothing about "ESR" on the about page.

On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 2:54:58 PM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Interesting! You using FF vanilla 54?
>
> Josiah
>
> Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> Right. But I wasn't using FirefoxESR.
>>
>

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Interesting! You using FF vanilla 54?

Josiah

Mark S. wrote:
>
> Right. But I wasn't using FirefoxESR.
>

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Right. But I wasn't using FirefoxESR.

On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 1:55:55 PM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> I used the config.js/config-pref.js technique followed by your steps 1-3 
>> and FF accepted TF 2.0.2 (on a virtual box linux mint). I don't know if the 
>> config.js steps were necessary or not.
>>
>
> Ciao Mark S.
>
> FWIW, the config.js steps are not necessary for FirefoxESR on Windows. 
> Steps 1-3 should do it.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:
>
> I used the config.js/config-pref.js technique followed by your steps 1-3 
> and FF accepted TF 2.0.2 (on a virtual box linux mint). I don't know if the 
> config.js steps were necessary or not.
>

Ciao Mark S.

FWIW, the config.js steps are not necessary for FirefoxESR on Windows. 
Steps 1-3 should do it.

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:
>
> I just realized ... why do you need to install an unsigned version of 
> tiddlyfox? TF 2.0.1 appears to work with FF 54, so what's the reason to get 
> 2.0.2 ?
>

Ciao Mark S.

For a user like you 2.0.2 who knows what they are doing it adds nothing 
much. 

The only reason it came about, I think, is that there were a lot of users 
complaining TiddlyFox was not saving, but, actually, they hadn't toggled it 
on for their TiddklyWiki because they were not noticing the visual state of 
the TiddlyFox icon in the browser bar. 

All that 2.0.2 adds, I think, is a huge notice that appears when you open a 
TW that saving is not enabled for itto alert you to switch it on.

Best wishes
Josiah 

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

I just realized ... why do you need to install an unsigned version of 
tiddlyfox? TF 2.0.1 appears to work with FF 54, so what's the reason to get 
2.0.2 ?

I used the config.js/config-pref.js technique followed by your steps 1-3 
and FF accepted TF 2.0.2 (on a virtual box linux mint). I don't know if the 
config.js steps were necessary or not.

Thanks,
Mark

On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 2:00:02 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Firefox over the next few months is rolling out a series of radical 
> changes that will mean, by the release of Standard Firefox 57 (November 
> 2017), TiddlyFox will no longer work, *not even signed versions*. Only 
> "WebExtensions" will work, and TiddlyFox is not one of them.
>
> *My opinion is the BEST BET to prolong your ability to save via TiddlyFox 
> on desktops is to switch over to FirefoxESR.*
>
> FirefoxESR is currently in version 52 and *will stay in major version 52 
> until at least March 2018*. The FirefoxESR version will install add-ons, 
> including "unsigned" versions, like the latest TiddlyFox. In order to do 
> this ...
>
> 1 - Freshly install FirefoxESR*. Copy over any profiles from your other 
> Firefox install you want to keep. (Note, Android O/S is not supported, 
> FirefoxESR is mainly aimed at desktop users)
>
> 2 - Start FirefoxESR. Go to "about:config" via the address bar. Click "I 
> accept the risk!"
>
> 3 - Navigate to ...
>
> xpinstall.signatures.required
>
> ... Click it till the value changes from "true" to "false". Close the 
> tab/window. 
>
> Now you will then be able to (a) install "unsigned" add-ons; (b) and 
> continue to be able to use TiddlyFox beyond November 2017.
>
> *Sources ...*
>
> Normal FirefoxESR: 
> https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/faq/
>
> Portable Apps version of FirefoxESR: 
> https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/firefox-portable-esrr
>
> TiddlyFox latest (2.0.2 prerelease), unsigned: 
> https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/raw/master/tiddlywiki.xpi 
> 
>
> *Why Best Bet? ...*
>
> IMO, FirefoxESR is now preferable to FirefoxDeveloper for TiddlyWikiers as 
> the developer version is on the bleeding edge of the changes and you will 
> likely encounter other issues with it. 
>
> Firefox ESR lags behind other Firefox developments but gets security 
> updates, I think its the best all round choice in the current situation for 
> the least hassle running TiddlyWiki for 10 months or so yet.
>
>
>
> *Background Comments ...*There is a lot of controversy & disagreements in 
> the Mozilla community about the direction that Firefox has committed to. 
> Many argue, very reasonably, that in going the direction it is it is 
> committing suicide because the result will be that all that is distinctive 
> about Firefox (vast numbers of sophisticated extensions) will be lost. So 
> there will be no real reason left to use it. Its userbase has already 
> shrunk dramatically. 
>
> It not just TiddlyWiki that is affected by the changes, it impacts a whole 
> swathe of brilliant add-ons that rely on file-saving. In many cases because 
> these "apps" (unlike TiddlyWiki) are implemented solely as add-ons, their 
> developers have already stopped work on them as the "WebExtensions" API has 
> no simple methods to directly save to file.
>
> It may be that Firefox will yet extend the API in the way that would be 
> needed, but the Mozilla discussions I looked at it about are all pretty 
> much not going anywhere soon.
>
>
>

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S.

Mark S. wrote:
>
> You're advocating "bowing" to an edition of FF that is a compromise meant 
> for large organizations
>

Yes. And no. That's more their marketing pitch than anything to fuss over. 
I'm more advocating a version of Firefox that is slightly behind, slightly 
more open to legacy, and definitely helpful for running TiddlyFox for a 
while yet. That is all. And FirefoxESR is pretty much that for desktop 
users.
 

> and which makes you sign up yet again for another list. 
>

There is NO list you have to sign to. That's just spiel on the Mozilla 
site. 

Basically its Firefox with a bit more flexibility and, at the moment, less 
swishing about all over the shop the other versions will be doing for the 
next half year.
 

> Plus, with the coming changes, there may be fewer reasons to want FF in 
> the first place.
>

I agree. With some reluctance, as my several years Firefox setup has served 
well. 
 

> The main problem with the default mechanism is the munged files it 
> creates. 
>

I agree. 
 

> I can imagine (at least for windows) a shell script that is used for 
> launching your TW. It sifts through the munged titles, archives the old 
> ones, copies the newest one to your TW starting directory, and launches it 
> there. So, just like a first-class app, it would have an icon on your 
> desktop.
>

Its a nice & interesting probing. It would be interesting to see an example 
and whether it could be generalised.

Best wishes
Josiah


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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

You're already "bowing" down by using FF and TF. You're advocating "bowing" 
to an edition of FF that is a compromise meant for large organizations and 
which makes you sign up yet again for another list. Plus, with the coming 
changes, there may be fewer reasons to want FF in the first place.

The main problem with the default mechanism is the munged files it creates. 
I can imagine (at least for windows) a shell script that is used for 
launching your TW. It sifts through the munged titles, archives the old 
ones, copies the newest one to your TW starting directory, and launches it 
there. So, just like a first-class app, it would have an icon on your 
desktop. It would save as usual (munged names in the background, but not a 
concern for the user). So it would look and feel pretty much like it does 
now or like a regular app. Something to think about. 

Mark

On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 9:38:26 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Mark S. wrote:
> Another possibility is to just run old Firefox for TW and another browser 
> (probably Chrome) for everything else.
>
> I found myself also entertaining such thoughts about the future. 
> Maintaining an insecure Firefox for purely home-work & Chrome to do 
> nettish. And then I realised that is an AWFUL solution of me kneeling down 
> to the pace of technology. It really won't do. It makes TiddlyWiki a 
> second class citizen.
>
> It may be we need another way of saving compatible with emerging trends 
> -- e.g. IN BROWSER saving, like Danielo's NoteSelf is advancing. 
>
> Its certainly going to become important to consider options that work 
> "universally" well--as Firefox progressively cuts off its own legs.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:
Another possibility is to just run old Firefox for TW and another browser 
(probably Chrome) for everything else.

I found myself also entertaining such thoughts about the future. 
Maintaining an insecure Firefox for purely home-work & Chrome to do 
nettish. And then I realised that is an AWFUL solution of me kneeling down 
to the pace of technology. It really won't do. It makes TiddlyWiki a second 
class citizen.

It may be we need another way of saving compatible with emerging trends -- 
e.g. IN BROWSER saving, like Danielo's NoteSelf is advancing. 

Its certainly going to become important to consider options that work 
"universally" well--as Firefox progressively cuts off its own legs.

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:
>
> The default download mechanism might be manageable on the desktop, but the 
> "save-as" on FF for Android, as far as I could tell, did not offer a 
> "choose directory each time" option. This means that each time you save the 
> name is munged. Renaming files on an Android is not as easy as on a desktop 
> and generally a hassle.
>

Ciao Mark S.

I am of the view that whilst "default download" may work easier on a 
desktop its still: (1) a serious pain in arse; (2) a complete turn-off for 
newbies. Its not a good way to have to save. IMO, it will damage TW usage 
if that is all we are left with this time next year.

Best wishes
Josiah

 

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S. 

Mark S. wrote:
>
> I came across this method to install unsigned versions of extensions 
>

I came across that too. I have never seen it mentioned anywhere else so 
that put me off it. I never tried it. I wonder if it actually works?

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

I came across this method to install unsigned versions of extensions. I 
haven't tried it mainly because I've held back updating FF, and I'm not 
sure how much it jeopardizes your security

  
https://superuser.com/questions/956145/how-to-force-install-an-unverified-firefox-extension-in-41-0b1

Basically you write your own config.js and config-prefs.js files and put 
them in the appropriate directories.

Another possibility is to just run old Firefox for TW and another browser 
(probably Chrome) for everything else.

The default download mechanism might be manageable on the desktop, but the 
"save-as" on FF for Android, as far as I could tell, did not offer a 
"choose directory each time" option. This means that each time you save the 
name is munged. Renaming files on an Android is not as easy as on a desktop 
and generally a hassle. 


Mark

On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 2:00:02 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Firefox over the next few months is rolling out a series of radical 
> changes that will mean, by the release of Standard Firefox 57 (November 
> 2017), TiddlyFox will no longer work, *not even signed versions*. Only 
> "WebExtensions" will work, and TiddlyFox is not one of them.
>
> *My opinion is the BEST BET to prolong your ability to save via TiddlyFox 
> on desktops is to switch over to FirefoxESR.*
>
> FirefoxESR is currently in version 52 and *will stay in major version 52 
> until at least March 2018*. The FirefoxESR version will install add-ons, 
> including "unsigned" versions, like the latest TiddlyFox. In order to do 
> this ...
>
> 1 - Freshly install FirefoxESR*. Copy over any profiles from your other 
> Firefox install you want to keep. (Note, Android O/S is not supported, 
> FirefoxESR is mainly aimed at desktop users)
>
> 2 - Start FirefoxESR. Go to "about:config" via the address bar. Click "I 
> accept the risk!"
>
> 3 - Navigate to ...
>
> xpinstall.signatures.required
>
> ... Click it till the value changes from "true" to "false". Close the 
> tab/window. 
>
> Now you will then be able to (a) install "unsigned" add-ons; (b) and 
> continue to be able to use TiddlyFox beyond November 2017.
>
> *Sources ...*
>
> Normal FirefoxESR: 
> https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/faq/
>
> Portable Apps version of FirefoxESR: 
> https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/firefox-portable-esrr
>
> TiddlyFox latest (2.0.2 prerelease), unsigned: 
> https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/raw/master/tiddlywiki.xpi 
> 
>
> *Why Best Bet? ...*
>
> IMO, FirefoxESR is now preferable to FirefoxDeveloper for TiddlyWikiers as 
> the developer version is on the bleeding edge of the changes and you will 
> likely encounter other issues with it. 
>
> Firefox ESR lags behind other Firefox developments but gets security 
> updates, I think its the best all round choice in the current situation for 
> the least hassle running TiddlyWiki for 10 months or so yet.
>
>
>
> *Background Comments ...*There is a lot of controversy & disagreements in 
> the Mozilla community about the direction that Firefox has committed to. 
> Many argue, very reasonably, that in going the direction it is it is 
> committing suicide because the result will be that all that is distinctive 
> about Firefox (vast numbers of sophisticated extensions) will be lost. So 
> there will be no real reason left to use it. Its userbase has already 
> shrunk dramatically. 
>
> It not just TiddlyWiki that is affected by the changes, it impacts a whole 
> swathe of brilliant add-ons that rely on file-saving. In many cases because 
> these "apps" (unlike TiddlyWiki) are implemented solely as add-ons, their 
> developers have already stopped work on them as the "WebExtensions" API has 
> has no simple methods to directly save to file.
>
> It may be that Firefox will yet extent the API in the way that would be 
> needed, but the Mozilla discussions I looked at it about are all pretty 
> much not going anywhere soon.
>
>
>

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:
>
> If you know a channel through which to protest. or lodge a concern please 
> let us know ...
>

Ciao TonyM

I'm doubtful If I can locate where the previous debates I read happened. 
But I'll see if I can. The reason is general comments to Mozilla go 
nowhere. You have to know the precise development group to  write into to 
have any chance of getting heard in a way that can get anywhere.

There were several discussions between developers about TiddlyFox that were 
quite heated. Its those I need to find (no promises).

Best wishes
Josiah 

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[tw] Re: FirefoxESR is best option for TiddlyWiki now -- Action & Opinion

[TonyM]

Thanks so much for the update and for warning.

Lets hope they can recognize how important local file save is for us, to me 
jepoardising this stops the browser being the "universal client" is should 
be.

On the security issue they may want to cover surely nominating exceptions 
in a specific browser install, to specific files, using a specific add on 
is security enough?

If you know a channel through which to protest. or lodge a concern please 
let us know, I expect we can mount a concerted effort.

Regards
Tony


On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 7:00:02 PM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Firefox over the next few months is rolling out a series of radical 
> changes that will mean, by the release of Standard Firefox 57 (November 
> 2017), TiddlyFox will no longer work, *not even signed versions*. Only 
> "WebExtensions" will work, and TiddlyFox is not one of them.
>
> *My opinion is the BEST BET to prolong your ability to save via TiddlyFox 
> on desktops is to switch over to FirefoxESR.*
>
> FirefoxESR is currently in version 52 and *will stay in major version 52 
> until at least March 2018*. The FirefoxESR version will install add-ons, 
> including "unsigned" versions, like the latest TiddlyFox. In order to do 
> this ...
>
> 1 - Freshly install FirefoxESR*. Copy over any profiles from your other 
> Firefox install you want to keep. (Note, Android O/S is not supported, 
> FirefoxESR is mainly aimed at desktop users)
>
> 2 - Start FirefoxESR. Go to "about:config" via the address bar. Click "I 
> accept the risk!"
>
> 3 - Navigate to ...
>
> xpinstall.signatures.required
>
> ... Click it till the value changes from "true" to "false". Close the 
> tab/window. 
>
> Now you will then be able to (a) install "unsigned" add-ons; (b) and 
> continue to be able to use TiddlyFox beyond November 2017.
>
> *Sources ...*
>
> Normal FirefoxESR: 
> https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/faq/
>
> Portable Apps version of FirefoxESR: 
> https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/firefox-portable-esrr
>
> TiddlyFox latest (2.0.2 prerelease), unsigned: 
> https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/raw/master/tiddlywiki.xpi 
> 
>
> *Why Best Bet? ...*
>
> IMO, FirefoxESR is now preferable to FirefoxDeveloper for TiddlyWikiers as 
> the developer version is on the bleeding edge of the changes and you will 
> likely encounter other issues with it. 
>
> Firefox ESR lags behind other Firefox developments but gets security 
> updates, I think its the best all round choice in the current situation for 
> the least hassle running TiddlyWiki for 10 months or so yet.
>
>
>
> *Background Comments ...*There is a lot of controversy & disagreements in 
> the Mozilla community about the direction that Firefox has committed to. 
> Many argue, very reasonably, that in going the direction it is it is 
> committing suicide because the result will be that all that is distinctive 
> about Firefox (vast numbers of sophisticated extensions) will be lost. So 
> there will be no real reason left to use it. Its userbase has already 
> shrunk dramatically. 
>
> It not just TiddlyWiki that is affected by the changes, it impacts a whole 
> swathe of brilliant add-ons that rely on file-saving. In many cases because 
> these "apps" (unlike TiddlyWiki) are implemented solely as add-ons, their 
> developers have already stopped work on them as the "WebExtensions" API has 
> has no simple methods to directly save to file.
>
> It may be that Firefox will yet extent the API in the way that would be 
> needed, but the Mozilla discussions I looked at it about are all pretty 
> much not going anywhere soon.
>
>
>

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