[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Birthe C]

Hi Stephan,

That is really nice, thank you.

For trans-editor
<$edit-text tiddler=<> class="full-width"/>



.full-width {width: 100%;}


Birthe

Den fredag den 6. april 2018 kl. 10.40.23 UTC+2 skrev Stephan Hradek:
>
> I've created a small example for you to reproduce on tiddlywiki.com
>
> Create some paragraph tiddlers. I've called them A, B and C containing 
> some Lorem Ipsum text .
>
> Example
>
> AA 
> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aliquam eget ex 
> nunc. Maecenas blandit efficitur erat a malesuada. Vivamus sit.
> AA
>
> Then I creted 2 tiddlers which are the "workhorses":
>
> trans-editor:
> <$edit-text tiddler=<>/>
>
> and trans-edit
> <$list filter=<> variable="theTiddler">
>
> <$button class="tc-btn-invisible tc-tiddlylink">
> <$action-sendmessage $message="tm-modal" $param="trans-editor" 
> tiddler2edit=<> />
> {{$:/core/images/edit-button}}
>  <$transclude tiddler=<> />
>
> 
>
> Finally create your tiddler which will transclude all your paragraph 
> tiddlers:
>
> {{
> [[A]]
> [[B]]
> [[C]]
> ||
> trans-edit
> }}
>
>
> This will show all the paragraphs prepended with an edit-icon.
>
> When you click it, a modal window will appear allowing you to edit the 
> content of the paragraph.
>
> Tasks left for you: Create some nice CSS to make the edit window appear in 
> a size you like. Currently it's quite small.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Thomas Elmiger]

This looks like a cool concept, Stephan, thanks for sharing!

I will try it, when I find some time. 

Cheers!
Thomas 

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Stephan Hradek]

I've created a small example for you to reproduce on tiddlywiki.com

Create some paragraph tiddlers. I've called them A, B and C containing some 
Lorem 
Ipsum text .

Example

AA 
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aliquam eget ex 
nunc. Maecenas blandit efficitur erat a malesuada. Vivamus sit.
AA

Then I creted 2 tiddlers which are the "workhorses":

trans-editor:
<$edit-text tiddler=<>/>

and trans-edit
<$list filter=<> variable="theTiddler">

<$button class="tc-btn-invisible tc-tiddlylink">
<$action-sendmessage $message="tm-modal" $param="trans-editor" 
tiddler2edit=<> />
{{$:/core/images/edit-button}}
 <$transclude tiddler=<> />



Finally create your tiddler which will transclude all your paragraph 
tiddlers:

{{
[[A]]
[[B]]
[[C]]
||
trans-edit
}}












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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Stephan Hradek]

It is possible to edit the content of a tiddler in the VIEW Window of 
another tiddler.

So if you have one tidler consistiong of transclusions of other tiddlers, 
it could look like this:

{{My first Paraggraph||trans-edit}}


{{My second Paraggraph||trans-edit}}


{{My third Paraggraph||trans-edit}}


And then have a tiddler "trans-edit" which does the transclusion and also 
inserts code for allowing editing of the transcluded tiddler in (for 
example) a popup.


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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

['Vytas' via TiddlyWiki]

I am not sure, whether I should start a new discussion, so I'll ask the 
question the more experienced community members here:

Is it (in principle) possible to EDIT the text of a tiddler from the 
EDIT-WINDOW of some other tiddler? 
If it is in principle possible, could somebody describe what should I, in 
the first place, learn about TiddlyWiki fundamentals to be able to achieve 
something like that?

Thank you!

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

When you excise you have the choice of writing over with a macro. Someone 
could replace the default macro ($:/core/macros/translink) with one that 
would allow you to edit the transclusion in place. Maybe with a reveal/hide 
switch so the text is only visible when you want it. There's still fiddly 
stuff you have to do when doing the excision (providing the title, 
specifying the macro).

-- Mark

On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 9:46:29 AM UTC-7, Vytas wrote:
>
> I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by its 
> fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links, images..), 
> or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG AS you have 
> the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of that primary 
> tiddler. 
>
> Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate paragraphs by 
> excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the editing very 
> cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit them and then 
> come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result. 
>

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

['Vytas' via TiddlyWiki]

I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by its fields 
(if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links, images..), or by 
creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG AS you have the 
ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of that primary tiddler. 

Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate paragraphs by 
excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the editing very 
cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit them and then come 
back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result. 

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Diego Mesa]

Hey Tony (and others)

What do you think about the idea/conceptualization of tiddler fields 
already being a way to "tag" and "segment" one tiddler into structured 
pieces? If you agree with that, wouldnt it make sense to make that job much 
easier?

Just curious as to what others think.

Best,
Diego

On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 1:23:33 AM UTC-5, TonyM wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> One solution to what you ask is to use a Draggable List of Tiddlers along 
> with Tobias's Preview Plugin so you can review the content on hover over 
> each tiddler link, so you can confirm where you want to position that 
> particular tiddler in a list of tiddlers.
>
> The Source document can be excised into tiddlers tagged with the source 
> documents name, then after reordering you have another tiddler that 
> transcludes all tiddlers into it according to the Order from the Draging 
> operations (using the List field).
>
> In this way you actually get to retain the Original order as well as see 
> your manipulated order. A Feature could be included to to retain original 
> tiddlers as well as edited ones to see before and After.
>
> Advance Opportunities then arise, like multiple virtual documents that mix 
> and match content and presents it in different formats, such as a short and 
> long resume based on the same content.
> Tiddlers could be created with a serial number (or use the created field?) 
> or have chapter and section fields, even need to edit flags etc...
> Perhaps one could use one of the KanBan Board Solutions for organising 
> text within a document or chapter?
>
> Regards
> Tony 
>
>
> On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 9:40:57 AM UTC+10, Mark S. wrote:
>>
>>  I don't think most people want to wrangle 20+ little tiddlers just so 
>> they can access one section inside an article. The old TWC had sections, 
>> and I think a lot of us were flabbergasted that the "improved" TW5 didn't. 
>> The old system works the way people actually think.
>>
>> It might be different if there were better tools for moving, annotating, 
>> deleting, and ordering small tiddlers, but there's not. How do you list a 
>> bunch of tiddlers, keep them in order, move them around, without having to 
>> open individual tiddlers to modify a sort field? Or create a massive list 
>> field in a Tagging tiddler -- working in a field box shorter than this 
>> sentence? How do you put them back into a single tiddler? How do you 
>> prevent orphans? I'm sure someone could come up with various tools to 
>> accomplish these tasks after the fact, but shouldn't these tools be in the 
>> core if we're expected to routinely use them that way?
>>
>>  -- Mark
>>
>> On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 5:08:26 AM UTC-7, Jed Carty wrote:
>>>
>>> This conversation has happened many times, but the conclusion has always 
>>> been the same. The power of tiddlywiki comes from having different 
>>> tiddlers, you can't have only one tiddler and use what is special about 
>>> tiddlywiki.
>>>
>>> The way to do what you are talking about in tiddlywiki is to have a 
>>> bunch of small tiddlers that are displayed using a template. You can see an 
>>> example of this here (
>>> https://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlyBook/#Alice’s%20Adventures%20In%20Wonderland),
>>>  
>>> each paragraph is a separate tiddler but they are all displayed inside a 
>>> single tiddler using a template. So you could gather together the first 
>>> paragraph of each chapter, or mark the chapters or paragraphs by subject or 
>>> however you want to do it and then see a list of them that fits whatever 
>>> criteria you are looking for.
>>>
>>> Anything that you do that will let you do that in a single tiddler is 
>>> going to be equivalent to reinventing tiddlywiki with separate tiddlers 
>>> inside a single tiddler. You will have to have the equivalent of tags and 
>>> field to give each tiddler metadata so you can sort it, and something like 
>>> a title if you want to be able to reference a paragraph individually, and 
>>> it will have text.
>>>
>>> The problem is an interface problem, we need to make a better interface 
>>> so that we can write one tiddler and have it automatically split up based 
>>> on markup (the text slicer plugin sort of does this already), not reinvent 
>>> tiddlywiki inside a single tiddler.
>>>
>>

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[TonyM]

Mark,

One solution to what you ask is to use a Draggable List of Tiddlers along 
with Tobias's Preview Plugin so you can review the content on hover over 
each tiddler link, so you can confirm where you want to position that 
particular tiddler in a list of tiddlers.

The Source document can be excised into tiddlers tagged with the source 
documents name, then after reordering you have another tiddler that 
transcludes all tiddlers into it according to the Order from the Draging 
operations (using the List field).

In this way you actually get to retain the Original order as well as see 
your manipulated order. A Feature could be included to to retain original 
tiddlers as well as edited ones to see before and After.

Advance Opportunities then arise, like multiple virtual documents that mix 
and match content and presents it in different formats, such as a short and 
long resume based on the same content.
Tiddlers could be created with a serial number (or use the created field?) 
or have chapter and section fields, even need to edit flags etc...
Perhaps one could use one of the KanBan Board Solutions for organising text 
within a document or chapter?

Regards
Tony 


On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 9:40:57 AM UTC+10, Mark S. wrote:
>
>  I don't think most people want to wrangle 20+ little tiddlers just so 
> they can access one section inside an article. The old TWC had sections, 
> and I think a lot of us were flabbergasted that the "improved" TW5 didn't. 
> The old system works the way people actually think.
>
> It might be different if there were better tools for moving, annotating, 
> deleting, and ordering small tiddlers, but there's not. How do you list a 
> bunch of tiddlers, keep them in order, move them around, without having to 
> open individual tiddlers to modify a sort field? Or create a massive list 
> field in a Tagging tiddler -- working in a field box shorter than this 
> sentence? How do you put them back into a single tiddler? How do you 
> prevent orphans? I'm sure someone could come up with various tools to 
> accomplish these tasks after the fact, but shouldn't these tools be in the 
> core if we're expected to routinely use them that way?
>
>  -- Mark
>
> On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 5:08:26 AM UTC-7, Jed Carty wrote:
>>
>> This conversation has happened many times, but the conclusion has always 
>> been the same. The power of tiddlywiki comes from having different 
>> tiddlers, you can't have only one tiddler and use what is special about 
>> tiddlywiki.
>>
>> The way to do what you are talking about in tiddlywiki is to have a bunch 
>> of small tiddlers that are displayed using a template. You can see an 
>> example of this here (
>> https://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlyBook/#Alice’s%20Adventures%20In%20Wonderland),
>>  
>> each paragraph is a separate tiddler but they are all displayed inside a 
>> single tiddler using a template. So you could gather together the first 
>> paragraph of each chapter, or mark the chapters or paragraphs by subject or 
>> however you want to do it and then see a list of them that fits whatever 
>> criteria you are looking for.
>>
>> Anything that you do that will let you do that in a single tiddler is 
>> going to be equivalent to reinventing tiddlywiki with separate tiddlers 
>> inside a single tiddler. You will have to have the equivalent of tags and 
>> field to give each tiddler metadata so you can sort it, and something like 
>> a title if you want to be able to reference a paragraph individually, and 
>> it will have text.
>>
>> The problem is an interface problem, we need to make a better interface 
>> so that we can write one tiddler and have it automatically split up based 
>> on markup (the text slicer plugin sort of does this already), not reinvent 
>> tiddlywiki inside a single tiddler.
>>
>

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

 I don't think most people want to wrangle 20+ little tiddlers just so they 
can access one section inside an article. The old TWC had sections, and I 
think a lot of us were flabbergasted that the "improved" TW5 didn't. The 
old system works the way people actually think.

It might be different if there were better tools for moving, annotating, 
deleting, and ordering small tiddlers, but there's not. How do you list a 
bunch of tiddlers, keep them in order, move them around, without having to 
open individual tiddlers to modify a sort field? Or create a massive list 
field in a Tagging tiddler -- working in a field box shorter than this 
sentence? How do you put them back into a single tiddler? How do you 
prevent orphans? I'm sure someone could come up with various tools to 
accomplish these tasks after the fact, but shouldn't these tools be in the 
core if we're expected to routinely use them that way?

 -- Mark

On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 5:08:26 AM UTC-7, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> This conversation has happened many times, but the conclusion has always 
> been the same. The power of tiddlywiki comes from having different 
> tiddlers, you can't have only one tiddler and use what is special about 
> tiddlywiki.
>
> The way to do what you are talking about in tiddlywiki is to have a bunch 
> of small tiddlers that are displayed using a template. You can see an 
> example of this here (
> https://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlyBook/#Alice’s%20Adventures%20In%20Wonderland),
>  
> each paragraph is a separate tiddler but they are all displayed inside a 
> single tiddler using a template. So you could gather together the first 
> paragraph of each chapter, or mark the chapters or paragraphs by subject or 
> however you want to do it and then see a list of them that fits whatever 
> criteria you are looking for.
>
> Anything that you do that will let you do that in a single tiddler is 
> going to be equivalent to reinventing tiddlywiki with separate tiddlers 
> inside a single tiddler. You will have to have the equivalent of tags and 
> field to give each tiddler metadata so you can sort it, and something like 
> a title if you want to be able to reference a paragraph individually, and 
> it will have text.
>
> The problem is an interface problem, we need to make a better interface so 
> that we can write one tiddler and have it automatically split up based on 
> markup (the text slicer plugin sort of does this already), not reinvent 
> tiddlywiki inside a single tiddler.
>

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Diego Mesa]

I think all of this would be made much simpler if there was a quick and 
easy way to add/edit tiddler fields. SOmething like this in the body 
textarea of a tiddler:

(=myNewField
bl h 
asd
sd
sf
sdf
=)

or in a special "field" textarea, collapsable right under the 
textarea/body. 

With this in place, yuo could easily crea/tedit/remove "fields" which are 
in essence, structured/tagged portions of a tiddler (dont believe me, just 
check a .tid file!)





On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 8:27:48 AM UTC-5, TonyM wrote:
>
> Vytas,
>
> I totaly support Jeds points. 
>
> Have you used the excise tool using the editor tool bar. This will help 
> divide text into tiddlers while retaining a single view.
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
>

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[TonyM]

Vytas,

I totaly support Jeds points. 

Have you used the excise tool using the editor tool bar. This will help divide 
text into tiddlers while retaining a single view.

Regards
Tony

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

['Vytas' via TiddlyWiki]

Jed, I am new to TiddlyWiki. Is there a chance you could find a link to a 
past conversation of this kind? That would be very interesting.

I see your point regarding the reinventing of "tiddlywiki within a single 
tiddler". I think automatic splitting of the whole text into different 
tiddlers would be an overkill for most purposes. Going along the lines of 
what you said, a great alternative to Mat's method would be to have 
macro/mark-up elements which would allow you to create and modify new 
tiddlers within the edit-window of some existing tiddler. For example a 
syntax of the following kind
<$NT[NewTiddler] tags[tag1,tag2]>Content of the new tiddler<$/NT>
could create a new tiddler named NewTiddler (or some automatically 
generated name if not specified) and tagged with tag1 and tag2 tags. The 
key feature would be the ability to edit the NewTiddler both from the 
edit-window of the parent tiddler, and the edit-window of the NewTiddler. 
However, I guess this is probably impossible without some core 
modifications of TiddlyWiki..

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Jed Carty]

This conversation has happened many times, but the conclusion has always 
been the same. The power of tiddlywiki comes from having different 
tiddlers, you can't have only one tiddler and use what is special about 
tiddlywiki.

The way to do what you are talking about in tiddlywiki is to have a bunch 
of small tiddlers that are displayed using a template. You can see an 
example of this here 
(https://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlyBook/#Alice’s%20Adventures%20In%20Wonderland),
 
each paragraph is a separate tiddler but they are all displayed inside a 
single tiddler using a template. So you could gather together the first 
paragraph of each chapter, or mark the chapters or paragraphs by subject or 
however you want to do it and then see a list of them that fits whatever 
criteria you are looking for.

Anything that you do that will let you do that in a single tiddler is going 
to be equivalent to reinventing tiddlywiki with separate tiddlers inside a 
single tiddler. You will have to have the equivalent of tags and field to 
give each tiddler metadata so you can sort it, and something like a title 
if you want to be able to reference a paragraph individually, and it will 
have text.

The problem is an interface problem, we need to make a better interface so 
that we can write one tiddler and have it automatically split up based on 
markup (the text slicer plugin sort of does this already), not reinvent 
tiddlywiki inside a single tiddler.

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Mat]

>
> Wow Mat!!
>
> Attention looks great! If you have the time, please make it a plugin and 
> lets get it on the main TW site!
>

Thanks Diego. Considering how nothing is really put on the main 
tiddlywiki.com site, but only references to it, I think it could be 
referred to in its current state. I.e I don't think it has to be a proper 
plugin and anyone is welcome to post a github pull request or however 
things are added there. Now, it should probably be a plugin anyway but I'm 
currently fiddling around with another project so it'll have to wait.

<:-)

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Mat]

Vytas, happy you like the CherryPicker. 

@@.pfx ''pfx'':<>@@
>

Not sure if that is intentional from my side or not. Good you solved it but 
if there are any side effects from your solution, you might try to add this 
to the stylesheet:

.pfx {display:none;}

 

> By playing around with the CherryPicker tiddler, I was also able to 
> display, in the aggregate tiddler, the dates when the corresponding 
> tiddlers were modified. Which, for an inexperienced person like me, is 
> great!
>

Yay! :-) 


However, can there be a method to tag selected paragraphs, in a tiddler, in 
> such a way, that the tagging symbols (in this case, the two HEY's between 
> which the 'cherry' is located) would not be displayed in the original 
> tiddlers? I found that instead of using HEY, squeezing the seleceted text 
> between two lines of
> @@color:white;HEY@@
> prevents the word HEY from being displayed. But this seems to be a very 
> unelegant solution :)
>

There is no solution as general as I would prefer it, but this seems to 
work;

Oh, hello there you rascal you.

I.e put the markers inside angle brackets.


<:-)
 

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Diego Mesa]

Wow Mat!!

Attention looks great! If you have the time, please make it a plugin and 
lets get it on the main TW site!

Diego

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 11:14:38 AM UTC-5, Mat wrote:
>
> Hi Vytas
>
> Yes, I made http://cherrypicker.tiddlyspot.com and later 
> http://attention.tiddlyspot.com for this purpose. I believe the latter is 
> more polished than the former. Also, I vaguely recall Thomas Elmiger made 
> some variant later and he is good at perfecting things.
>
> It is, in deed, a functionality we need and one that is possibly even 
> expected by modern hashtagging and 
>
> <:-)
>
>

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

['Vytas' via TiddlyWiki]

Thank you for your responses Jed and Mat.

Mat, I have tried the CherryPicker tool. Great job! After having imported 
the three CherryPicker components to my wiki, I ran into an issue that the 
macro <> adds, for each segment, three additional 
unwanted lines: *pfx:HEY*, *txt: text within a segmentHEY* and *rest:HEY*. 
Luckily, I was able to remove these lines by deleting, from the 
CherryPicker tiddler, code lines like this
@@.pfx ''pfx'':<>@@

By playing around with the CherryPicker tiddler, I was also able to 
display, in the aggregate tiddler, the dates when the corresponding 
tiddlers were modified. Which, for an inexperienced person like me, is 
great!

However, can there be a method to tag selected paragraphs, in a tiddler, in 
such a way, that the tagging symbols (in this case, the two HEY's between 
which the 'cherry' is located) would not be displayed in the original 
tiddlers? I found that instead of using HEY, squeezing the seleceted text 
between two lines of
@@color:white;HEY@@
prevents the word HEY from being displayed. But this seems to be a very 
unelegant solution :)



 

a)  

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Mat]

Hi Vytas

Yes, I made http://cherrypicker.tiddlyspot.com and later 
http://attention.tiddlyspot.com for this purpose. I believe the latter is 
more polished than the former. Also, I vaguely recall Thomas Elmiger made 
some variant later and he is good at perfecting things.

It is, in deed, a functionality we need and one that is possibly even 
expected by modern hashtagging and 

<:-)

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[tw] Re: How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Jed Carty]

The only way to do this would be to make each paragraph a separate tiddler. 
The text slicer plugin already does this on a larger scale so while it may 
not be usable for what you want it is possible to do it.

There has been a lot of discussion about things like this and sub-sections 
in tiddlers lead to more problems than they solve. I have some ideas on how 
to make a plugin that does this but I don't think I will have time to make 
it anytime soon.

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