[tw] Re: Populating the list field of a tiddler that is a tag

[TonyM]

Your Welcome Steve,

An Update on my note in the Previouse post. 

I said "note the has[fieldname] filter demands the field have a value, even 
one space character."

If you add the "suffix" we can say
has:field[fieldname]
will detect if the field exists with or without any value.

Regards
Tony

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 7:02:10 AM UTC+10, Steven Schneider wrote:
>
> Thanks, Tony, for the insights.And, for reminding me of the GenTags 
>  plugin; I'd lost 
> track of that one, and it is really helpful.  //steve.
>
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 7:28:54 PM UTC-4, TonyM wrote:
>>
>> Steven,
>>
>> I suppose the importance of the tag field is its supporting tools like 
>> tag pills, filters and tags as tiddlers. Personally I have started to 
>> reduce my use of tags in favour of reserving them for adhoc or hierarchical 
>> relationships.
>>
>> The list fields is a special case of using a field as a list of titles, 
>> where if you have drag-able lists, for example of items tagged with a 
>> specific tag you can set the order with drag and drop. Thus I leave it 
>> alone for that purpose.
>>
>> Even the existence of a field can act like a tag once you become familiar 
>> with field filters note the has[fieldname] filter demands the field have a 
>> value, even one space character.
>>
>> I am gradually starting to use custom fields, listops and tools rather 
>> than using too many tags. One use of using another field as a list of 
>> titles (not the tags or list fields) is for subjects or categories that 
>> differ from tags. Once a tag exists it is available to all tiddlers to tag 
>> them, if you use tags for subjects and categories it is not easy to tell 
>> the different functions of different tags unless you add this to the naming 
>> standard.
>>
>> Of late I am playing with Jeds GenTags plugin 
>>   
>> Which provides the partial equivalent of additional tags fields, which I 
>> am using for subjects and Categories, each additional field has its own 
>> list of candidate titles, rather than from all tags.
>>
>> I am starting to see limitations with the tabs widget, that may have 
>> something to do with your students issue, however your code snipit I would 
>> describe as "Populate a field with a list of titles" could help here.
>>
>> Thanks for sharing
>> I hope my perspective throws a little light on the subject.
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> On Saturday, 24 March 2018 07:59:54 UTC+11, Steven Schneider wrote:
>>>
>>> Not a technical problem, a visual problem. He wanted to be able to leaf 
>>> through illustrations without shifting tiddlers, and the tabs approach 
>>> wasn't really doing it for him. Mostly: I'm interested here in 
>>> understanding how list field differs from tag field, and how they can be 
>>> used to accomplish different types of things. 
>>>
>>> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 4:17:10 PM UTC-4, Mark S. wrote:

 What was the problem with the <> approach? If it was just the sort 
 order, add a field "sortby" to each illustration with a double buffered 
 illustration number ("01", "02" ... "31" )

 Then 

 <>>> \\

  "$:/state/tab2" "tc-vertical">>

 should work.
  
 -- Mark

 On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:51:27 AM UTC-7, Steven Schneider wrote:
>
> Hmm. Let me try again:
>
> At 
> http://tombofhorrors.tiddlyspot.com/#Illustrations:Illustrations%20Description
>  the 
> author uses <> to present images tagged with "Illustrations". This 
> is 
> ok, but not super ideal.  
> I suggested he create a new tiddler called "Show the Illustrations" 
> that made use of a list of tiddlers so that they could be identified and 
> sorted. The <> was of limited value, so I suggested he 
> might use the list field instead (We ultimately ended up developing a 
> tag-based 
> macro 
> 
>  instead 
> of using a list field...). 
>
> While exploring list fields, it was annoying to manually populate a 
> list field with every tagged tiddler, so we wrote that short one-time use 
> button script that essentially put the contents of the <> field 
> into 
> a <> field of a specified tiddler. (It was also a way to introduce 
> the use of the ActionListOps widget)(on reflection, there was probably a 
> faster way to copy the contents of the tag field of a tiddler into the 
> list 
> field of another tiddler, but I didn't think of that until now).
>
> Our discussion generated some interesting questions about the nature 
> of list fields, as well as the nature of the tags field, and when it was 
> useful / appropriate to use tags and when it was useful / appropriate to 
> use list fields. That's really my question. 
>
> Thanks for 

[tw] Re: Populating the list field of a tiddler that is a tag

[Steven Schneider]

Thanks, Tony, for the insights.And, for reminding me of the GenTags 
 plugin; I'd lost 
track of that one, and it is really helpful.  //steve.

On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 7:28:54 PM UTC-4, TonyM wrote:
>
> Steven,
>
> I suppose the importance of the tag field is its supporting tools like tag 
> pills, filters and tags as tiddlers. Personally I have started to reduce my 
> use of tags in favour of reserving them for adhoc or hierarchical 
> relationships.
>
> The list fields is a special case of using a field as a list of titles, 
> where if you have drag-able lists, for example of items tagged with a 
> specific tag you can set the order with drag and drop. Thus I leave it 
> alone for that purpose.
>
> Even the existence of a field can act like a tag once you become familiar 
> with field filters note the has[fieldname] filter demands the field have a 
> value, even one space character.
>
> I am gradually starting to use custom fields, listops and tools rather 
> than using too many tags. One use of using another field as a list of 
> titles (not the tags or list fields) is for subjects or categories that 
> differ from tags. Once a tag exists it is available to all tiddlers to tag 
> them, if you use tags for subjects and categories it is not easy to tell 
> the different functions of different tags unless you add this to the naming 
> standard.
>
> Of late I am playing with Jeds GenTags plugin 
>   
> Which provides the partial equivalent of additional tags fields, which I 
> am using for subjects and Categories, each additional field has its own 
> list of candidate titles, rather than from all tags.
>
> I am starting to see limitations with the tabs widget, that may have 
> something to do with your students issue, however your code snipit I would 
> describe as "Populate a field with a list of titles" could help here.
>
> Thanks for sharing
> I hope my perspective throws a little light on the subject.
>
> Tony
>
> On Saturday, 24 March 2018 07:59:54 UTC+11, Steven Schneider wrote:
>>
>> Not a technical problem, a visual problem. He wanted to be able to leaf 
>> through illustrations without shifting tiddlers, and the tabs approach 
>> wasn't really doing it for him. Mostly: I'm interested here in 
>> understanding how list field differs from tag field, and how they can be 
>> used to accomplish different types of things. 
>>
>> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 4:17:10 PM UTC-4, Mark S. wrote:
>>>
>>> What was the problem with the <> approach? If it was just the sort 
>>> order, add a field "sortby" to each illustration with a double buffered 
>>> illustration number ("01", "02" ... "31" )
>>>
>>> Then 
>>>
>>> <>> \\
>>>
>>>  "$:/state/tab2" "tc-vertical">>
>>>
>>> should work.
>>>  
>>> -- Mark
>>>
>>> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:51:27 AM UTC-7, Steven Schneider wrote:

 Hmm. Let me try again:

 At 
 http://tombofhorrors.tiddlyspot.com/#Illustrations:Illustrations%20Description
  the 
 author uses <> to present images tagged with "Illustrations". This 
 is 
 ok, but not super ideal.  
 I suggested he create a new tiddler called "Show the Illustrations" 
 that made use of a list of tiddlers so that they could be identified and 
 sorted. The <> was of limited value, so I suggested he 
 might use the list field instead (We ultimately ended up developing a 
 tag-based 
 macro 
 
  instead 
 of using a list field...). 

 While exploring list fields, it was annoying to manually populate a 
 list field with every tagged tiddler, so we wrote that short one-time use 
 button script that essentially put the contents of the <> field into 
 a <> field of a specified tiddler. (It was also a way to introduce 
 the use of the ActionListOps widget)(on reflection, there was probably a 
 faster way to copy the contents of the tag field of a tiddler into the 
 list 
 field of another tiddler, but I didn't think of that until now).

 Our discussion generated some interesting questions about the nature of 
 list fields, as well as the nature of the tags field, and when it was 
 useful / appropriate to use tags and when it was useful / appropriate to 
 use list fields. That's really my question. 

 Thanks for seeking clarification :)

 //steve.


 On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 12:25:06 PM UTC-4, Stephan Hradek wrote:
>
> To me it's absolutely unclear
>
> a) What you're trying to achieve
> b) What's your question
>
> Really sorry for that. Do you think there are filters the student 
> can't use becaue he used tags and he could have used, had he used lists? 
> So 
> can you give an example? Maybe publish an example somewhere for us to 

[tw] Re: Populating the list field of a tiddler that is a tag

[TonyM]

Steven,

I suppose the importance of the tag field is its supporting tools like tag 
pills, filters and tags as tiddlers. Personally I have started to reduce my 
use of tags in favour of reserving them for adhoc or hierarchical 
relationships.

The list fields is a special case of using a field as a list of titles, 
where if you have drag-able lists, for example of items tagged with a 
specific tag you can set the order with drag and drop. Thus I leave it 
alone for that purpose.

Even the existence of a field can act like a tag once you become familiar 
with field filters note the has[fieldname] filter demands the field have a 
value, even one space character.

I am gradually starting to use custom fields, listops and tools rather than 
using too many tags. One use of using another field as a list of titles 
(not the tags or list fields) is for subjects or categories that differ 
from tags. Once a tag exists it is available to all tiddlers to tag them, 
if you use tags for subjects and categories it is not easy to tell the 
different functions of different tags unless you add this to the naming 
standard.

Of late I am playing with Jeds GenTags plugin 
  
Which provides the partial equivalent of additional tags fields, which I am 
using for subjects and Categories, each additional field has its own list 
of candidate titles, rather than from all tags.

I am starting to see limitations with the tabs widget, that may have 
something to do with your students issue, however your code snipit I would 
describe as "Populate a field with a list of titles" could help here.

Thanks for sharing
I hope my perspective throws a little light on the subject.

Tony

On Saturday, 24 March 2018 07:59:54 UTC+11, Steven Schneider wrote:
>
> Not a technical problem, a visual problem. He wanted to be able to leaf 
> through illustrations without shifting tiddlers, and the tabs approach 
> wasn't really doing it for him. Mostly: I'm interested here in 
> understanding how list field differs from tag field, and how they can be 
> used to accomplish different types of things. 
>
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 4:17:10 PM UTC-4, Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> What was the problem with the <> approach? If it was just the sort 
>> order, add a field "sortby" to each illustration with a double buffered 
>> illustration number ("01", "02" ... "31" )
>>
>> Then 
>>
>> <> \\
>>
>>  "$:/state/tab2" "tc-vertical">>
>>
>> should work.
>>  
>> -- Mark
>>
>> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:51:27 AM UTC-7, Steven Schneider wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmm. Let me try again:
>>>
>>> At 
>>> http://tombofhorrors.tiddlyspot.com/#Illustrations:Illustrations%20Description
>>>  the 
>>> author uses <> to present images tagged with "Illustrations". This is 
>>> ok, but not super ideal.  
>>> I suggested he create a new tiddler called "Show the Illustrations" that 
>>> made use of a list of tiddlers so that they could be identified and sorted. 
>>> The <> was of limited value, so I suggested he might use 
>>> the list field instead (We ultimately ended up developing a tag-based 
>>> macro 
>>> 
>>>  instead 
>>> of using a list field...). 
>>>
>>> While exploring list fields, it was annoying to manually populate a list 
>>> field with every tagged tiddler, so we wrote that short one-time use button 
>>> script that essentially put the contents of the <> field into a 
>>> <> field of a specified tiddler. (It was also a way to introduce the 
>>> use of the ActionListOps widget)(on reflection, there was probably a faster 
>>> way to copy the contents of the tag field of a tiddler into the list field 
>>> of another tiddler, but I didn't think of that until now).
>>>
>>> Our discussion generated some interesting questions about the nature of 
>>> list fields, as well as the nature of the tags field, and when it was 
>>> useful / appropriate to use tags and when it was useful / appropriate to 
>>> use list fields. That's really my question. 
>>>
>>> Thanks for seeking clarification :)
>>>
>>> //steve.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 12:25:06 PM UTC-4, Stephan Hradek wrote:

 To me it's absolutely unclear

 a) What you're trying to achieve
 b) What's your question

 Really sorry for that. Do you think there are filters the student can't 
 use becaue he used tags and he could have used, had he used lists? So can 
 you give an example? Maybe publish an example somewhere for us to have a 
 look at?

>>>

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[tw] Re: Populating the list field of a tiddler that is a tag

[Steven Schneider]

Not a technical problem, a visual problem. He wanted to be able to leaf 
through illustrations without shifting tiddlers, and the tabs approach 
wasn't really doing it for him. Mostly: I'm interested here in 
understanding how list field differs from tag field, and how they can be 
used to accomplish different types of things. 

On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 4:17:10 PM UTC-4, Mark S. wrote:
>
> What was the problem with the <> approach? If it was just the sort 
> order, add a field "sortby" to each illustration with a double buffered 
> illustration number ("01", "02" ... "31" )
>
> Then 
>
> < \\
>
>  "$:/state/tab2" "tc-vertical">>
>
> should work.
>  
> -- Mark
>
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:51:27 AM UTC-7, Steven Schneider wrote:
>>
>> Hmm. Let me try again:
>>
>> At 
>> http://tombofhorrors.tiddlyspot.com/#Illustrations:Illustrations%20Description
>>  the 
>> author uses <> to present images tagged with "Illustrations". This is 
>> ok, but not super ideal.  
>> I suggested he create a new tiddler called "Show the Illustrations" that 
>> made use of a list of tiddlers so that they could be identified and sorted. 
>> The <> was of limited value, so I suggested he might use 
>> the list field instead (We ultimately ended up developing a tag-based 
>> macro 
>> 
>>  instead 
>> of using a list field...). 
>>
>> While exploring list fields, it was annoying to manually populate a list 
>> field with every tagged tiddler, so we wrote that short one-time use button 
>> script that essentially put the contents of the <> field into a 
>> <> field of a specified tiddler. (It was also a way to introduce the 
>> use of the ActionListOps widget)(on reflection, there was probably a faster 
>> way to copy the contents of the tag field of a tiddler into the list field 
>> of another tiddler, but I didn't think of that until now).
>>
>> Our discussion generated some interesting questions about the nature of 
>> list fields, as well as the nature of the tags field, and when it was 
>> useful / appropriate to use tags and when it was useful / appropriate to 
>> use list fields. That's really my question. 
>>
>> Thanks for seeking clarification :)
>>
>> //steve.
>>
>>
>> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 12:25:06 PM UTC-4, Stephan Hradek wrote:
>>>
>>> To me it's absolutely unclear
>>>
>>> a) What you're trying to achieve
>>> b) What's your question
>>>
>>> Really sorry for that. Do you think there are filters the student can't 
>>> use becaue he used tags and he could have used, had he used lists? So can 
>>> you give an example? Maybe publish an example somewhere for us to have a 
>>> look at?
>>>
>>

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[tw] Re: Populating the list field of a tiddler that is a tag

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

What was the problem with the <> approach? If it was just the sort 
order, add a field "sortby" to each illustration with a double buffered 
illustration number ("01", "02" ... "31" )

Then 

<>

should work.
 
-- Mark

On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:51:27 AM UTC-7, Steven Schneider wrote:
>
> Hmm. Let me try again:
>
> At 
> http://tombofhorrors.tiddlyspot.com/#Illustrations:Illustrations%20Description
>  the 
> author uses <> to present images tagged with "Illustrations". This is 
> ok, but not super ideal.  
> I suggested he create a new tiddler called "Show the Illustrations" that 
> made use of a list of tiddlers so that they could be identified and sorted. 
> The <> was of limited value, so I suggested he might use 
> the list field instead (We ultimately ended up developing a tag-based 
> macro 
> 
>  instead 
> of using a list field...). 
>
> While exploring list fields, it was annoying to manually populate a list 
> field with every tagged tiddler, so we wrote that short one-time use button 
> script that essentially put the contents of the <> field into a 
> <> field of a specified tiddler. (It was also a way to introduce the 
> use of the ActionListOps widget)(on reflection, there was probably a faster 
> way to copy the contents of the tag field of a tiddler into the list field 
> of another tiddler, but I didn't think of that until now).
>
> Our discussion generated some interesting questions about the nature of 
> list fields, as well as the nature of the tags field, and when it was 
> useful / appropriate to use tags and when it was useful / appropriate to 
> use list fields. That's really my question. 
>
> Thanks for seeking clarification :)
>
> //steve.
>
>
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 12:25:06 PM UTC-4, Stephan Hradek wrote:
>>
>> To me it's absolutely unclear
>>
>> a) What you're trying to achieve
>> b) What's your question
>>
>> Really sorry for that. Do you think there are filters the student can't 
>> use becaue he used tags and he could have used, had he used lists? So can 
>> you give an example? Maybe publish an example somewhere for us to have a 
>> look at?
>>
>

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[tw] Re: Populating the list field of a tiddler that is a tag

[Diego Mesa]

Hey Stephan,

Just letting you know that sortan is now part of the core (currently in 
prerelease):

https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/#sortan%20Operator

On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 1:25:51 PM UTC-5, Stephan Hradek wrote:
>
> I wouldnt have tagged the illustration tiddlers at all. After all: They 
> are already named "Illustration X" so a simple "prefix[Illustration ]" 
> filter would do.
>
> Unfortunately automatic sorting of the tiddlers isn't possible yet. There 
> is a plugin which could do that 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/fJ-kKaxRwy0 and I wish 
> it would be part of the core.
>
>

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[tw] Re: Populating the list field of a tiddler that is a tag

[Stephan Hradek]

I wouldnt have tagged the illustration tiddlers at all. After all: They are 
already named "Illustration X" so a simple "prefix[Illustration ]" filter 
would do.

Unfortunately automatic sorting of the tiddlers isn't possible yet. There 
is a plugin which could do that 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/fJ-kKaxRwy0 and I wish 
it would be part of the core.

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[tw] Re: Populating the list field of a tiddler that is a tag

[Steven Schneider]

Hmm. Let me try again:

At 
http://tombofhorrors.tiddlyspot.com/#Illustrations:Illustrations%20Description 
the 
author uses <> to present images tagged with "Illustrations". This is 
ok, but not super ideal.  
I suggested he create a new tiddler called "Show the Illustrations" that 
made use of a list of tiddlers so that they could be identified and sorted. 
The <> was of limited value, so I suggested he might use 
the list field instead (We ultimately ended up developing a tag-based macro 

 instead 
of using a list field...). 

While exploring list fields, it was annoying to manually populate a list 
field with every tagged tiddler, so we wrote that short one-time use button 
script that essentially put the contents of the <> field into a 
<> field of a specified tiddler. (It was also a way to introduce the 
use of the ActionListOps widget)(on reflection, there was probably a faster 
way to copy the contents of the tag field of a tiddler into the list field 
of another tiddler, but I didn't think of that until now).

Our discussion generated some interesting questions about the nature of 
list fields, as well as the nature of the tags field, and when it was 
useful / appropriate to use tags and when it was useful / appropriate to 
use list fields. That's really my question. 

Thanks for seeking clarification :)

//steve.


On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 12:25:06 PM UTC-4, Stephan Hradek wrote:
>
> To me it's absolutely unclear
>
> a) What you're trying to achieve
> b) What's your question
>
> Really sorry for that. Do you think there are filters the student can't 
> use becaue he used tags and he could have used, had he used lists? So can 
> you give an example? Maybe publish an example somewhere for us to have a 
> look at?
>

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[tw] Re: Populating the list field of a tiddler that is a tag

[Stephan Hradek]

To me it's absolutely unclear

a) What you're trying to achieve
b) What's your question

Really sorry for that. Do you think there are filters the student can't use 
becaue he used tags and he could have used, had he used lists? So can you 
give an example? Maybe publish an example somewhere for us to have a look 
at?

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