Re: [tw5] A HOWTO: Filtered transclusion example (with transclusion template and simple markdown table) for my Template Documentation

[Felicia Crow]

Well so far it was a good Monday since my brain was willing to work again 
after a weekend of absolute no productivity and an absolute inability to 
concentrate on anything longer than five minutes.
And as for the "a certain way" I think one can take a look at your wikis 
and get a good idea.

Personally I don't have much of a plan beyond a more or less defined end 
goal so everything evolves very organically as I need it or think of it 
since I love to tinker with those things, but after the first thought of 
the idea itself the second is: Great now how many options can I cram into 
before it becomes bloated but it still can be used in more than one 
specific situation so that I have to only rewrite things in on place, and 
the third: What parts of this idea can I automate so I don't have to even 
touch them in the future once I am happy with how it works. Yet especially 
this automation but also the modular approach come with certain 
expectations and systems attached for it to work. Mostly in the form of 
fields and macros that select, sort, edit or create tiddlers based on the 
value of those fields.

For instance to use one of my more over-engineered examples: I have a 
button and a text field to create a new category for my world building 
since those can differ from case to case. Each category created this way 
has two components: The category tiddler itself that lists all entries 
belonging to it and allowing sorting them in different ways and a tiddler 
that is used as a template when creating a new item for the category. When 
I use one of the three ways to create a new item of this category - over 
the new tiddler button, from my missing tiddlers list or from the category 
tiddler itself - the same macro is called. This macro looks with which 
value it was called and then based on that looks for the right template to 
use and creates the new tiddler including adding the title when called from 
the missing tiddlers list. This only works because there are specific 
fields linking the template to the category that can't be changed or it 
won't work.
And while there is the very high chance that I eventually will look at 
having to change dozens of tiddlers because I changed my mind about now 
wanting an age field for all the characters instead of their birthday like 
in the template, it has to me the benefit that I can quickly create those 
entries and categories and having them already linked together without 
having to remember to fill out the specific fields/add the right tags to 
make it work.

I think this is also where once again the differing use case comes in. My 
whole main project - when I don't wander off to do something that seems 
more fun at the moment for instance tinker with question/problems posted 
here - is more in the vain of for instance noteself as to provide an 
overlay over the tiddlywiki core for a more or less specific use case. If I 
would have something more like your product reviews - maybe reviews of 
books that I have half finished - I probably would tend to a more open 
structure that I can more easily reorder when I want in the way I feel 
like, although probably still with more macros since great is still 
followed by how can I use it in more than one place with slightly different 
options while having one place to rewrite things.

So and talking about wordy, I would not call this answer short either, hope 
it is not too much of a wall of text and at least somewhat understandable.

A good Monday to you since here by now Tuesday is already on the imaginary 
horizon.
Felicia



On Monday, 19 October 2020 16:13:34 UTC+2, Charlie Veniot wrote:
>
> G'day Felicia, 
>
> Happy Monday !  (May seem like an oxymoron, but who knows?  Could be the 
> best Monday ever ...)
>
> I have a whole whack of metrics involved in my approach-taking decisions, 
> usually a snap choice to avoid getting stuck in the mud and overthinking 
> (me shoving sticks in my own wheels), and tweak as I go along when I reach 
> some pain-in-the-caboose tipping point (or have some bright or plain old 
> goofy idea I want to try).
>
> More often than not, I tend to get very irritated with "bloat" and 
> duplication/redundancy, and I find myself doing whatever to shave away even 
> just a few characters .
>
> A bit of a "take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of 
> themselves" ?
>
> Then again, if "the fun in it" way surpasses any kind of irritation, then 
> I stick with the fun until no longer fun.  Well, the fun quickly takes a 
> nose-dive whenever I see an approach that is going to create an ugly mess 
> down the road.
>
> Being a software developer and always considering the design of 
> everything, I'm always thinking:  make everything easy/quick to adapt / 
> evolve / change (as per any new discovery or as per any mood strikes me).  
> That's the beauty of any wiki product: when things are done a certain way: 
> a wiki makes it really easy to completely reshuffle everything.
>
> Good 

Re: [tw5] A HOWTO: Filtered transclusion example (with transclusion template and simple markdown table) for my Template Documentation

[Charlie Veniot]

G'day Felicia, 

Happy Monday !  (May seem like an oxymoron, but who knows?  Could be the 
best Monday ever ...)

I have a whole whack of metrics involved in my approach-taking decisions, 
usually a snap choice to avoid getting stuck in the mud and overthinking 
(me shoving sticks in my own wheels), and tweak as I go along when I reach 
some pain-in-the-caboose tipping point (or have some bright or plain old 
goofy idea I want to try).

More often than not, I tend to get very irritated with "bloat" and 
duplication/redundancy, and I find myself doing whatever to shave away even 
just a few characters .

A bit of a "take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of 
themselves" ?

Then again, if "the fun in it" way surpasses any kind of irritation, then I 
stick with the fun until no longer fun.  Well, the fun quickly takes a 
nose-dive whenever I see an approach that is going to create an ugly mess 
down the road.

Being a software developer and always considering the design of everything, 
I'm always thinking:  make everything easy/quick to adapt / evolve / change 
(as per any new discovery or as per any mood strikes me).  That's the 
beauty of any wiki product: when things are done a certain way: a wiki 
makes it really easy to completely reshuffle everything.

Good luck me explaining "a certain way".  Insta-thoughts:

   - Every tiddler is a first-class citizen
   - No tiddler exists in (or is bound to, or dependent on) any 
   hierarchical (or other kind of) structure; any tiddler can, though, 
   participate in an infinite number of relationships, and each relationship 
   provides informative structure for some contextual meaning
   - Avoid, almost dogmatically, writing a "thing" more than once (write 
   once, transclude everywhere else)

All of that only half-way into my first morning cup of coffee.  No matter 
time of day or levels of caffeine, always wordy ...



On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 9:56:31 AM UTC-3, Felicia Crow wrote:
>
> Hi Charlie,
>
> wordy is great if it is this informative.
>
> Honestly I thought about your product tiddlers when asking about templates 
> because I wondered if it would be faster to have a template tiddler 
> containing a certain set of fields already and just creating new product 
> tiddlers from there with the fields only having to be filled out instead of 
> creating everything anew each time you add a new product, but I can see how 
> this would not have that much benefit in your case depending on how many 
> standard fields you have in your product tiddler.
>
> I think where I get far more benefits from template tiddlers and the main 
> reason I use them is that I have many fields in my wiki that my various 
> macros need, but that can be either already filled out in the template 
> itself or when creating a tiddler from the template.
> But then my wiki is intended to eventually become a template in itself to 
> be able to copy it and collect my various world building/writing ideas into 
> wikis depending on world instead of scattered throughout the dozens of 
> physical notebooks, files and formats they are currently in so I think 
> already the use case dictates a different approach in this case.
>
> As for the changing all the tiddlers when the template changes I wonder if 
> something could be done to update the tiddlers created from the template 
> when the template changes, but then it is the question what changes and how 
> things can be combined. So at most probably a add/delete field for every 
> tiddler created with this template and then either only if the change is 
> universal or showing a list of which tiddlers to update.
> And another idea for the pile...
>
> Hope you have a good day!
> Felicia
>
>
> On Thursday, 15 October 2020 16:50:10 UTC+2, Charlie Veniot wrote:
>>
>> G'day Felicia,
>>
>> In all of the various TiddlyWiki instances I've created, I've only done 
>> something akin to cloning with "Medication Journey" journals in my ADHD 
>> Slice'n Dice 
>>  
>> TiddlyWiki.
>>
>> I am a tweaker by nature, always incrementally 
>> iterating/adjusting/tweaking/refining/etc. etc. as a slowly get things just 
>> right (matching whatever intertwingled mess of a puzzle picture in my head.)
>>
>> The problem I have with creating a  bunch of tiddlers as clones of a 
>> tiddler template:  when I want to make an adjustment (and I will 
>> undoubtedly make umpteen adjustments to anything as everything becomes less 
>> muddied), I have to then go to every tiddler created from whatever template 
>> and adjust each one accordingly.  That's a huge pain in the caboose.
>>
>> Eventually, I may create some buttons for tiddler creation as copies of 
>> template tiddlers in my Product Reviews 
>>  
>> TiddlyWiki, but there has to be some significant benefit.  At the moment, 
>> I'm not seeing any.
>>
>> My 

Re: [tw5] A HOWTO: Filtered transclusion example (with transclusion template and simple markdown table) for my Template Documentation

[Felicia Crow]

Hi Charlie,

wordy is great if it is this informative.

Honestly I thought about your product tiddlers when asking about templates 
because I wondered if it would be faster to have a template tiddler 
containing a certain set of fields already and just creating new product 
tiddlers from there with the fields only having to be filled out instead of 
creating everything anew each time you add a new product, but I can see how 
this would not have that much benefit in your case depending on how many 
standard fields you have in your product tiddler.

I think where I get far more benefits from template tiddlers and the main 
reason I use them is that I have many fields in my wiki that my various 
macros need, but that can be either already filled out in the template 
itself or when creating a tiddler from the template.
But then my wiki is intended to eventually become a template in itself to 
be able to copy it and collect my various world building/writing ideas into 
wikis depending on world instead of scattered throughout the dozens of 
physical notebooks, files and formats they are currently in so I think 
already the use case dictates a different approach in this case.

As for the changing all the tiddlers when the template changes I wonder if 
something could be done to update the tiddlers created from the template 
when the template changes, but then it is the question what changes and how 
things can be combined. So at most probably a add/delete field for every 
tiddler created with this template and then either only if the change is 
universal or showing a list of which tiddlers to update.
And another idea for the pile...

Hope you have a good day!
Felicia


On Thursday, 15 October 2020 16:50:10 UTC+2, Charlie Veniot wrote:
>
> G'day Felicia,
>
> In all of the various TiddlyWiki instances I've created, I've only done 
> something akin to cloning with "Medication Journey" journals in my ADHD 
> Slice'n Dice 
>  
> TiddlyWiki.
>
> I am a tweaker by nature, always incrementally 
> iterating/adjusting/tweaking/refining/etc. etc. as a slowly get things just 
> right (matching whatever intertwingled mess of a puzzle picture in my head.)
>
> The problem I have with creating a  bunch of tiddlers as clones of a 
> tiddler template:  when I want to make an adjustment (and I will 
> undoubtedly make umpteen adjustments to anything as everything becomes less 
> muddied), I have to then go to every tiddler created from whatever template 
> and adjust each one accordingly.  That's a huge pain in the caboose.
>
> Eventually, I may create some buttons for tiddler creation as copies of 
> template tiddlers in my Product Reviews 
>  
> TiddlyWiki, but there has to be some significant benefit.  At the moment, 
> I'm not seeing any.
>
> My approach to writing and organizing content is to get something down as 
> quick as possible that is good enough (a process of progressive 
> elicitation?), and then slowly/incrementally/iteratively adjust as 
> needs/requirements ( information-bits / structures, the pictures) dictate 
> (become clear.)  The plan/direction unfolds as I see the bits written down 
> and structured.  Never "big requirements/plans up front".  That's the 
> beauty of any Wiki: it allows agility and even massive change to anything 
> can be done quickly.  (Unlike dealing with a bunch of separate 
> files/documents in some hierarchy of folders.)
>
> Very organic to fit my granola personality.
>
> Oops.  I got wordy.  Hard thing to fix ...
>
> Cheers !
>
> On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 11:19:59 AM UTC-3, Felicia Crow wrote:
>>
>> Hi Charlie,
>>
>> somewhat off-topic, but your answer to Atro led me to a question 
>> regarding another kind of template. Seeing how streamlined your wiki is, 
>> but having not seen anything in this direction: Have you thought about 
>> using templates to create certain tiddlers, either by cloning the template 
>> or using a button?
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> Felicia
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, 15 October 2020 15:33:54 UTC+2, Charlie Veniot wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Atro,
>>>
>>> Those are excellent questions.  Without having pondered deeply about it, 
>>> here is my immediate blathering of thoughts:
>>>
>>> I generally much prefer transclusion wherever I can use that instead of 
>>> a macro.  For the way this old sponge of mine works, transclusion often 
>>> makes more sense to me than a macro (maybe because I always think in a 
>>> transclusion way (with *everything*, TiddlyWiki or not.)  I also get 
>>> annoyed with macro syntax for whatever reason (in the same way somebody 
>>> would prefer the colour green while somebody else the colour blue.)
>>>
>>> There are certain things that, to me, macro is hands down the way to 
>>> go.  What these things are, I'm not sure.  Maybe it is enough to say that 
>>> what can't be nicely done via 

Re: [tw5] A HOWTO: Filtered transclusion example (with transclusion template and simple markdown table) for my Template Documentation

[Atronoush Parsi]

Thanks Charlie.

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 5:04 PM Charlie Veniot  wrote:

> Hello Atro,
>
> Those are excellent questions.  Without having pondered deeply about it,
> here is my immediate blathering of thoughts:
>
> I generally much prefer transclusion wherever I can use that instead of a
> macro.  For the way this old sponge of mine works, transclusion often makes
> more sense to me than a macro (maybe because I always think in a
> transclusion way (with *everything*, TiddlyWiki or not.)  I also get
> annoyed with macro syntax for whatever reason (in the same way somebody
> would prefer the colour green while somebody else the colour blue.)
>
> There are certain things that, to me, macro is hands down the way to go.
> What these things are, I'm not sure.  Maybe it is enough to say that what
> can't be nicely done via transclusion, go with a macro.
>
> For example, all of the macros in my "Product Reviews" TiddlyWiki:
> https://intertwingularityslicendice.neocities.org/CJ_ProductReviews.html#Macros
>
> Well, the "ListCategoryProducts" and "ShowProductThumbnail", I can see me
> replacing those with transclusion template tiddlers.
>
> I am currently only half-way into my morning's first cup o' coffee, still
> a bit in a sleepy fog.  Re-reading the above: huh, not so shabby despite
> not so bright-eyed and not so bushy-tailed ...
>
> Cheers !
>
> On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:38:26 AM UTC-3, Atronoush wrote:
>>
>> This is absolutely great! What do you think if one uses a macro instead
>> of template?
>> So instead of several templates you can have one tiddler with several
>> macros?
>>
>> I am really interested to know the pros and cons of template / macro and
>> when I should use a template instead of macro?
>>
>> --Atro
>>
>>
>>>
>>> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [tw5] A HOWTO: Filtered transclusion example (with transclusion template and simple markdown table) for my Template Documentation

[Charlie Veniot]

G'day Felicia,

In all of the various TiddlyWiki instances I've created, I've only done 
something akin to cloning with "Medication Journey" journals in my ADHD 
Slice'n Dice 
 
TiddlyWiki.

I am a tweaker by nature, always incrementally 
iterating/adjusting/tweaking/refining/etc. etc. as a slowly get things just 
right (matching whatever intertwingled mess of a puzzle picture in my head.)

The problem I have with creating a  bunch of tiddlers as clones of a 
tiddler template:  when I want to make an adjustment (and I will 
undoubtedly make umpteen adjustments to anything as everything becomes less 
muddied), I have to then go to every tiddler created from whatever template 
and adjust each one accordingly.  That's a huge pain in the caboose.

Eventually, I may create some buttons for tiddler creation as copies of 
template tiddlers in my Product Reviews 
 
TiddlyWiki, but there has to be some significant benefit.  At the moment, 
I'm not seeing any.

My approach to writing and organizing content is to get something down as 
quick as possible that is good enough (a process of progressive 
elicitation?), and then slowly/incrementally/iteratively adjust as 
needs/requirements ( information-bits / structures, the pictures) dictate 
(become clear.)  The plan/direction unfolds as I see the bits written down 
and structured.  Never "big requirements/plans up front".  That's the 
beauty of any Wiki: it allows agility and even massive change to anything 
can be done quickly.  (Unlike dealing with a bunch of separate 
files/documents in some hierarchy of folders.)

Very organic to fit my granola personality.

Oops.  I got wordy.  Hard thing to fix ...

Cheers !

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 11:19:59 AM UTC-3, Felicia Crow wrote:
>
> Hi Charlie,
>
> somewhat off-topic, but your answer to Atro led me to a question regarding 
> another kind of template. Seeing how streamlined your wiki is, but having 
> not seen anything in this direction: Have you thought about using templates 
> to create certain tiddlers, either by cloning the template or using a 
> button?
>
> Kind Regards,
> Felicia
>
>
>
> On Thursday, 15 October 2020 15:33:54 UTC+2, Charlie Veniot wrote:
>>
>> Hello Atro,
>>
>> Those are excellent questions.  Without having pondered deeply about it, 
>> here is my immediate blathering of thoughts:
>>
>> I generally much prefer transclusion wherever I can use that instead of a 
>> macro.  For the way this old sponge of mine works, transclusion often makes 
>> more sense to me than a macro (maybe because I always think in a 
>> transclusion way (with *everything*, TiddlyWiki or not.)  I also get 
>> annoyed with macro syntax for whatever reason (in the same way somebody 
>> would prefer the colour green while somebody else the colour blue.)
>>
>> There are certain things that, to me, macro is hands down the way to go.  
>> What these things are, I'm not sure.  Maybe it is enough to say that what 
>> can't be nicely done via transclusion, go with a macro.
>>
>> For example, all of the macros in my "Product Reviews" TiddlyWiki:  
>> https://intertwingularityslicendice.neocities.org/CJ_ProductReviews.html#Macros
>>
>> Well, the "ListCategoryProducts" and "ShowProductThumbnail", I can see me 
>> replacing those with transclusion template tiddlers.
>>
>> I am currently only half-way into my morning's first cup o' coffee, still 
>> a bit in a sleepy fog.  Re-reading the above: huh, not so shabby despite 
>> not so bright-eyed and not so bushy-tailed ...
>>
>> Cheers !
>>
>> On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:38:26 AM UTC-3, Atronoush wrote:
>>>
>>> This is absolutely great! What do you think if one uses a macro instead 
>>> of template?
>>> So instead of several templates you can have one tiddler with several 
>>> macros?
>>>
>>> I am really interested to know the pros and cons of template / macro and 
>>> when I should use a template instead of macro?
>>>
>>> --Atro
>>>
>>>



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Re: [tw5] A HOWTO: Filtered transclusion example (with transclusion template and simple markdown table) for my Template Documentation

[Felicia Crow]

Hi Charlie,

somewhat off-topic, but your answer to Atro led me to a question regarding 
another kind of template. Seeing how streamlined your wiki is, but having 
not seen anything in this direction: Have you thought about using templates 
to create certain tiddlers, either by cloning the template or using a 
button?

Kind Regards,
Felicia



On Thursday, 15 October 2020 15:33:54 UTC+2, Charlie Veniot wrote:
>
> Hello Atro,
>
> Those are excellent questions.  Without having pondered deeply about it, 
> here is my immediate blathering of thoughts:
>
> I generally much prefer transclusion wherever I can use that instead of a 
> macro.  For the way this old sponge of mine works, transclusion often makes 
> more sense to me than a macro (maybe because I always think in a 
> transclusion way (with *everything*, TiddlyWiki or not.)  I also get 
> annoyed with macro syntax for whatever reason (in the same way somebody 
> would prefer the colour green while somebody else the colour blue.)
>
> There are certain things that, to me, macro is hands down the way to go.  
> What these things are, I'm not sure.  Maybe it is enough to say that what 
> can't be nicely done via transclusion, go with a macro.
>
> For example, all of the macros in my "Product Reviews" TiddlyWiki:  
> https://intertwingularityslicendice.neocities.org/CJ_ProductReviews.html#Macros
>
> Well, the "ListCategoryProducts" and "ShowProductThumbnail", I can see me 
> replacing those with transclusion template tiddlers.
>
> I am currently only half-way into my morning's first cup o' coffee, still 
> a bit in a sleepy fog.  Re-reading the above: huh, not so shabby despite 
> not so bright-eyed and not so bushy-tailed ...
>
> Cheers !
>
> On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:38:26 AM UTC-3, Atronoush wrote:
>>
>> This is absolutely great! What do you think if one uses a macro instead 
>> of template?
>> So instead of several templates you can have one tiddler with several 
>> macros?
>>
>> I am really interested to know the pros and cons of template / macro and 
>> when I should use a template instead of macro?
>>
>> --Atro
>>
>>
>>>
>>>

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Re: [tw5] A HOWTO: Filtered transclusion example (with transclusion template and simple markdown table) for my Template Documentation

[Charlie Veniot]

Hello Atro,

Those are excellent questions.  Without having pondered deeply about it, 
here is my immediate blathering of thoughts:

I generally much prefer transclusion wherever I can use that instead of a 
macro.  For the way this old sponge of mine works, transclusion often makes 
more sense to me than a macro (maybe because I always think in a 
transclusion way (with *everything*, TiddlyWiki or not.)  I also get 
annoyed with macro syntax for whatever reason (in the same way somebody 
would prefer the colour green while somebody else the colour blue.)

There are certain things that, to me, macro is hands down the way to go.  
What these things are, I'm not sure.  Maybe it is enough to say that what 
can't be nicely done via transclusion, go with a macro.

For example, all of the macros in my "Product Reviews" TiddlyWiki:  
https://intertwingularityslicendice.neocities.org/CJ_ProductReviews.html#Macros

Well, the "ListCategoryProducts" and "ShowProductThumbnail", I can see me 
replacing those with transclusion template tiddlers.

I am currently only half-way into my morning's first cup o' coffee, still a 
bit in a sleepy fog.  Re-reading the above: huh, not so shabby despite not 
so bright-eyed and not so bushy-tailed ...

Cheers !

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:38:26 AM UTC-3, Atronoush wrote:
>
> This is absolutely great! What do you think if one uses a macro instead of 
> template?
> So instead of several templates you can have one tiddler with several 
> macros?
>
> I am really interested to know the pros and cons of template / macro and 
> when I should use a template instead of macro?
>
> --Atro
>
>
>>
>>

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