date:20201005

Folks,

I simply can't get over the power this adds to tiddlywiki.

- Even just to use a symbol for a known or arbitrary html element name
is immensely powerful.
- Having a symbol and name simply replace a specific implementation of a
widget and pre-set attributes
- This includes the use of the macrocall widget to prefill macro
parameters.
- The ability to use a set of .classnames against any line or block in
wikitext is another expansive opportunity
- The classnames so defined are readily applied to other wikitext
elements and are thus able to be re-used in many places.
- Using a symbol/name to indicate the application of a larger set of
classes is also a way to collapse complexity into the minimum of annotations
- It is now possible to generate an "alias" name for many things
including existing css
\customise tick=frame _classes="tc-tiddler-frame"
- To be able to provide the content of a line as input to many different
customised responses
eg filter to list-links °orderedList [tag[toc]]

I am yet to fully comprehend how to go between inline, block and \n or \n\n
without end strings but I think its all there?

I am also trying to use previous workarounds with customise for anchors and
links within tiddlers. Then simplify with customise.

Regards
Tony

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

Mario,

Perhaps there is something I do not understand but I am suggesting a 
specific symbol lets say ¤ as a working symbol

   - Perhaps I can state it in different words?


Consider this
\customise sym=elementname _element=elementname

¤elementname that will internally parse this as if there existed a 

¤elementname.classname and allowing class names
You can see the customise is repetitive, but currently it must be explicit

What I am suggesting is there is so much value in using customise just to 
take a named element name and allow a classname(s) to be applied and close 
it.
 line or content 
So I am asking if it would be possible to to convert any line beginning 
with a fixed special character to result in a open and close element of the 
immediate text. Arguably auto close on \n\n

Why;

   - HTML elements, open and closed arbitrary or not, could be collapsed to 
   ¤elementname.classname
   - Arbitrary html sections allow the author to mark-up their content 
   according to logical names

This tiddler is about 

   - Then with a small set of css or macros and view templates we can alter 
   the display, or search all tiddlers for such content
   - This works well *already* but I was wondering if we can replace this 
   with ¤elementname.classname ?
   - Macros can either interrogate the rendered html or between ¤elementname  
   and \n\n to extract the contents.

For many users this would be a compelling use of the customise pragma but 
they would not need to define such customise parameters at all.


Regards
Tony

On Tuesday, 6 October 2020 02:58:47 UTC+11, PMario wrote:
>
> On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 2:54:08 PM UTC+2, TonyM wrote:
>
> This makes me ask if one of out special characters could simply default to 
>> the element that follows the special character
>>
>> eg
>> 'aside Content is an aside
>>
>>
>>- That is nominate one of the special character to just automatically 
>>treat what follows as this does \customise tick=aside _element=aside
>>
>> This would be possible if we would check against an HTML list of "names". 
> which is already done, eg: _element="article" will have a look at: 
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/9716c326952c16f63345a135e73cf36670dca0d8/core/modules/config.js#L37
>
> But we would probably need to update this list, since "Details" isn't 
> listed there. 
>  
>
>>
>>- So in fact we do not need to define any \customise tick=elementname 
>>_element=elementname
>>
>> We do for "names" that are not html tags.
>  
>
>>
>>- This should be achievable programaticaly so any element name can be 
>>used including arbitrary html elements.
>>
>> including "arbitrary" tags is not possible, since this would limit the 
> names to html elements only. .. That's not what we want. 
>
> -mario 
>

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 11:05:20 AM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> For readers on email in my last post prefaced *Regarding examples & 
> WikiText "interactivity" *I deleted the last paragraph as it was 
> misleading.
> TT
>

I think it was the one with the space-space-enter, that produces a hard 
linebreak. .. That's an effect that comes from the second plugin. 
https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/custom-markup/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Fwikilabs%2Fspace-space-newline

space-space-enter at the end of the line is also specified in the new 
CommonMark spec. ... space-space-backslash-enter comes from me :) ... 
Sometimes I want to have a visual clue, that there are 2 spaces at the end 
of the line. 

I was also thinking about a plugin the uses: 

 - list
   - list

to produce this: 

   - list 
  - list 

I'm not really happy with 

* list
** list

Especially if there are 3 of them. 

-m

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 10:03:40 AM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> *Regarding a use case using "shorthand"*
>
> PMario wrote:
>>
>>
>> The point is, I'm completely clueless, why you write "content" with CSS? 
>> What is the purpose? Or is it just testing out the possibilities?
>>
>
> Its a good question to ask. It forces me to be explicit about it. Yeah, it 
> seems very bizarre at first. But its addressing a very specific use case. 
>
> For over a decade I have made manual SHORTHAND for lesson instructions for 
> bodywork. An example hand-written (on paper) shorthand for the start of a 
> lesson ...
>
> Pb Ob Pbk Crl o ll at k // A1 Abk 1 L 2 R
>
>
That's very interesting. So you can read this and it makes sense to you :) 
.. Nice!

PS. There is a side-effect too that is very good for me. Generated content 
> CSS can't be copied via select on screen. Since these lessons are very 
> costly to make I don't want users (or competitors) whom I don't work with 
> to be able to easily copy my work. Read fine. Copy or print, no. You have 
> to pay for that. CSS lets me make stealing lessons difficult without 
> requiring any server involvement.
>

Printing should be possible. ... But copy pasting is harder. ... 

Do you have any server based setting to engage with your users? 

I would go a slightly different route. Have eg: about a miniute readable 
and for the rest you have to be logged in. .. But you are right, this would 
need a server side. 

-m
 

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

Hi

´aside test asdf

is already possible

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 2:54:08 PM UTC+2, TonyM wrote:

This makes me ask if one of out special characters could simply default to 
> the element that follows the special character
>
> eg
> 'aside Content is an aside
>
>
>- That is nominate one of the special character to just automatically 
>treat what follows as this does \customise tick=aside _element=aside
>
> This would be possible if we would check against an HTML list of "names". 
which is already done, eg: _element="article" will have a look at: 
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/9716c326952c16f63345a135e73cf36670dca0d8/core/modules/config.js#L37

But we would probably need to update this list, since "Details" isn't 
listed there. 
 

>
>- So in fact we do not need to define any \customise tick=elementname 
>_element=elementname
>
> We do for "names" that are not html tags.
 

>
>- This should be achievable programaticaly so any element name can be 
>used including arbitrary html elements.
>
> including "arbitrary" tags is not possible, since this would limit the 
names to html elements only. .. That's not what we want. 

-mario 

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 2:54:08 PM UTC+2, TonyM wrote:

By the way I do nor think we shopuld say 
>
> =
>
> Since to me the tick degree etc.. is a symbol
>
>
This will be some docs changes only. I would be OK with this. 
 

> To me 
>
> =
> Would be better and note that name can be a single character, work or 
> character (the symbol).
>
>
-m

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

Mario,

I have returned to research after a short break, and realise it is not as 
intuitive when you come back to, it but I am getting there.

As a starter I am reviewing first simple elements only 

eg;
\customise tick=kbd _element=kbd _mode='inline'
\customise tick=div _element=div
\customise tick=p _element=p
\customise tick=summary _element=summary
\customise tick=article _element=article
\customise tick=aside _element=aside

They all seem to work as advertised and allow the additional of classes

This makes me ask if one of out special characters could simply default to 
the element that follows the special character

eg
'aside Content is an aside


   - That is nominate one of the special character to just automatically 
   treat what follows as this does \customise tick=aside _element=aside
   - So in fact we do not need to define any \customise tick=elementname 
   _element=elementname
   - This should be achievable programaticaly so any element name can be 
   used including arbitrary html elements.

So if we did this it would work like below but with no need to use the 
\customise pragma for a nominated tic.
\customise tick=question _element=question
\customise tick=answer _element=answer

question { display: initial }
answer { display: none }


´question What do you think?

´answer Really cool eh?



By the way I do nor think we shopuld say 

=

Since to me the tick degree etc.. is a symbol


To me 

=
Would be better and note that name can be a single character, work or character 
(the symbol).

Regards

Tony




On Friday, 25 September 2020 21:46:32 UTC+10, PMario wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> This is the continuation of Custom markup 
>  
> [1] and Custom markup (continued) 
> and Custom 
> markup (continued 2) 
>  [2]
>
> Let's start a new one before [2] starts to use pagination. 
> Have a closer look at link [1] it's possible to show all the topics in 1 
> page
>
> starting with  V 0.5.1 https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/custom-markup/ 
>  the above link won't 
> work anymore!
> have fun!
> mario
>
>

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

Sorry, To be a little clearer on my previous question answer

You may use answers to display all answers at once;

Otherwise
'q1 Question 1
'a1 answer 1

etc...
Tony

On Monday, 5 October 2020 23:54:08 UTC+11, TonyM wrote:
>
> Mario,
>
> I have returned to research after a short break, and realise it is not as 
> intuitive when you come back to, it but I am getting there.
>
> As a starter I am reviewing first simple elements only 
>
> eg;
> \customise tick=kbd _element=kbd _mode='inline'
> \customise tick=div _element=div
> \customise tick=p _element=p
> \customise tick=summary _element=summary
> \customise tick=article _element=article
> \customise tick=aside _element=aside
>
> They all seem to work as advertised and allow the additional of classes
>
> This makes me ask if one of out special characters could simply default to 
> the element that follows the special character
>
> eg
> 'aside Content is an aside
>
>
>- That is nominate one of the special character to just automatically 
>treat what follows as this does \customise tick=aside _element=aside
>- So in fact we do not need to define any \customise tick=elementname 
>_element=elementname
>- This should be achievable programaticaly so any element name can be 
>used including arbitrary html elements.
>
> So if we did this it would work like below but with no need to use the 
> \customise pragma for a nominated tic.
> \customise tick=question _element=question
> \customise tick=answer _element=answer
> 
> question { display: initial }
> answer { display: none }
> 
>
> ´question What do you think?
>
> ´answer Really cool eh?
>
>
>
> By the way I do nor think we shopuld say 
>
> =
>
> Since to me the tick degree etc.. is a symbol
>
>
> To me 
>
> =
> Would be better and note that name can be a single character, work or 
> character (the symbol).
>
> Regards
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, 25 September 2020 21:46:32 UTC+10, PMario wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> This is the continuation of Custom markup 
>>  
>> [1] and Custom markup (continued) 
>> and 
>> Custom 
>> markup (continued 2) 
>>  [2]
>>
>> Let's start a new one before [2] starts to use pagination. 
>> Have a closer look at link [1] it's possible to show all the topics in 1 
>> page
>>
>> starting with  V 0.5.1 https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/custom-markup/ 
>>  the above link 
>> won't work anymore!
>> have fun!
>> mario
>>
>>

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)


>
> PMario
> I was thinking about °/ some text and /°  ... Since start and end are 
> different, it should be possible to identify nesting. So 
> ›/ and /› .. may be a second option and ´/ and /´  a 3rd one. 
>
> I would like to keep °° some text °°
>

Well you are the developer :-).

TBH I don't like having TWO characters before and after. Following the 
parser you already launched would this be possible?? ... These are 
suggested defaults ...

(NOTE in the examples I am simply using degree, and single AS IF. I don't 
care if its another character ultimately.) 

*Mode 1 - Match the "word", close at space (any "\s") so ...*

This is an °example of usage.Just an example.

renders as ...

This is an example of usage. Just an example.

You add ONE character. Well good.

*Mode 2 - Match to "end-string" (pair is  › ... ‹)*

This is an › example of usage‹.Just an example.

renders as ...

This is an  example of usage.Just an example.

You add TWO characters.

Just ideas. The main thing being to have as minimal markup as possible, I 
think?

Best wishes
TT

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

TT .. 

> I have two other simpler suggestions ...
>>
>> 1 - only have ONE character not two ... using @@ or °° is nowhere near as 
>> readable as @ ° alone. *Markup in-line should be the most readable and 
>> the most minimal *because that is where reading happens most.
>>
>
PMario ... 

> That's right. If we find the right "start" and "end" markers we could do 1 
> character as a marker. ... But 1 ° char seems to be valid plain text for 
> me. eg: 20°C ... should not start something special. ... 20 °C ... the ID 
> would be ° (degree) and the symbol would be "C". .. But that's probably not 
> intended. .. 
>

Right. Degree is used by mathematicians, for navigation, for temperatures 
etc ... So one needs an alternative ID :-) for users who use it a lot & 
where an occasional *""* won't be enough :-). 

Wher as °°C.class.class:param is a possible marker, that the parser can 
> identify. Especially if the inline mode starts a the beginning of the line. 
>
> °C will clash with the existing parser
>

Right. My concern here is a broader issue. 

Do you think its a good idea to use the same ID characters for inline as 
occur for block (i.e. single charter at line start) mode?

Would it not be better they were totally different?

Thoughts
TT

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

--- Largely OT 
 

> PMario ...
>
 

> The middle dot is very similar to the "Mediopunkt" in German "Leichte 
> Sprache" rule-set. So we can't really use it. "Leichte Sprache" and 
> "Einfache Sprache" are a "big thing" at the moment.  
>

Ha! I had a quick look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leichte_Sprache. 
Most interesting.

TT 

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 11:34:48 AM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

I was suggesting tentatively that there be two ID's for inline markup ...
>
> degree "°" (entity = )
>
>
> and another ... (I can help you find one :-) maybe ...
>

I was thinking about °/ some text and /°  ... Since start and end are 
different, it should be possible to identify nesting. So 

›/ and /› .. may be a second option and ´/ and /´  a 3rd one. 

I would like to keep °° some text °°, because I like it more than °/  ... 
(I would name this: °/ ... left eye and this: /° right eye .. And this 
looks like a face (°/°) )

>
> middle dot "·" (entity = )
>
>
> I'll explain in a later post why I think 2 IDs may be a good idea. 
>

The middle dot is very similar to the "Mediopunkt" in German "Leichte 
Sprache" rule-set. So we can't really use it. "Leichte Sprache" and 
"Einfache Sprache" are a "big thing" at the moment.  

Just some thoughts. 

mario

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)


*Discussing putative inline IDs *

> @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>  
>
>> 2 - ADD a second ID, maybe aimed at paired use by default?
>>
>  
>
PMario .. 

> Not sure, what you mean here.
>

I was suggesting tentatively that there be two ID's for inline markup ...

degree "°" (entity = )


and another ... (I can help you find one :-) maybe ...

middle dot "·" (entity = )


I'll explain in a later post why I think 2 IDs may be a good idea. 

Best wishes
TT

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

For readers on email in my last post prefaced *Regarding examples & 
WikiText "interactivity" *I deleted the last paragraph as it was misleading.
TT

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

*Regarding examples & WikiText "interactivity"*

TT wrote:
>
>
>> These can variously interact under nesting. They can also change existing 
>> WikiText behaviors on line-spacing (when its nested inside some custom 
>> constructs) in a way that can be confusing at first.  Now I understand it 
>> much better. When you understand how it works its ROBUST and you can do 
>> pretty amazing things very elegantly & efficiently.
>>
>
> Yea, there is still some problems, with the TW core parser, that 
> introduces P tags, where they shouldn't be. .. I think there is no real way 
> to work around this. :/
>  
>
>> My point? I think we need to try help PMario document it. 
>>
>
> PMario 

> That's a good idea. Especially documented examples will be helpful. ... 
>

Hopefully I can give you one or two in time.

> In particular we currently lack a brief summary that indicates the 
>> "interactivity" that totally confused me at first.
>>
>
> What do you mean by "interactivity"
>

I mean only what can happen, especially under nesting, with WikiText & 
Custom Markup.

I think the bigger point I was trying to get at is that Custom Markup makes 
much, much easier vastly more sophisticated use of HTML & CSS using a neat 
compact method.
Along with that comes, I think, much higher chances users will trigger 
cases where the layout seems to go all wrong :-). 
So greater clarity of how parsing works is likely going to be needed if a 
user wants to do more advanced work.

A simple example is the current behaviour of adding two spaces at the end 
of a line with some WikiText.
I only just realised that two spaces at the end of a line inserts a * **I 
never grasped that before!*
SO, I think that some aspects of existing WikiText might also need a bit of 
clearer documentation?
Yes?

TT

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

Users on email please note that in my last post prefaced *Regarding a use 
case using "shorthand" *I added a PS at the end reading ...

PS. There is a side-effect too that is very good for me. Generated content 
CSS can't be copied via select on screen. Since these lessons are very 
costly to make I don't want users (or competitors) whom I don't work with 
to be able to easily copy my work. Read fine. Copy or print, no. You have 
to pay for that. CSS lets me make stealing lessons difficult without 
requiring any server involvement.

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

Regarding a use case using "shorthand"

PMario wrote:
>
>
> The point is, I'm completely clueless, why you write "content" with CSS? 
> What is the purpose? Or is it just testing out the possibilities?
>

Its a good question to ask. It forces me to be explicit about it. Yeah, it 
seems very bizarre at first. But its addressing a very specific use case. 

For over a decade I have made manual SHORTHAND for lesson instructions for 
bodywork. An example hand-written (on paper) shorthand for the start of a 
lesson ...

Pb Ob Pbk Crl o ll at k // A1 Abk 1 L 2 R

These are instructions in a class I give voice to like this ...

Lay down on your back. Observe how you lay on the ground  bend your knees. Cross your right leg over your left ... 
etc

A whole lesson is written on ONE A6 card. 
Transcribed a lesson would be 4-6 pages of A4.

I now want to put online some of these lessons (demand from students). 
Since *hundreds of phrases are repeated i*n different lessons I want to 
avoid having to write those for each lesson. That is the background. Hope 
that makes clearer the issue!

I have done some experiments already in TW using transclusion (each 
sub-phrase a tiddler). It works, but (1) the styling (I need to hide/show 
parts of lessons) gets very complicated to manage; (2) its a barely 
readable forest of *{{...}}.*

NOW I'm experimenting with your Custom Markup and the results so far look 
very good. In fact it looks like I might be able to use a slightly modified 
version my existing shorthand system (mixed with typed text). So, for 
example ...

°Pb.-pos °Ob °.pbk IC.rl °.o °.ll It is important at  °.at °K // °.a-1 
°a-bk Rest, then °.L2r 

YES, its an experiment. But a well advanced one that looks very hopeful. 
Once setup it seems very effective!

I think its an interesting use case of efficient utilization of CSS. 

I may actually use it! :-)

Best wishes
TT

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

I was about to post a note on in-lining :-)

I'll update first. A dopo.

TT

On Sunday, 4 October 2020 14:23:33 UTC+2, PMario wrote:
>
> Hi foks,
>
> I did just upload V0.6.0 which has some INCOMPATIBLE changes. 
>
>
>- *New Functionality*
>   - $:/config/custom-markup/pragma/PageTemplate 
>   
> 
>  
>   tagged: $:/tags/Macro
>  - content: \importcustom [tag[$:/tags/pragma]]
>   - contains global pragma definitions .. and macro definitions
>- *Incompatible changes*
>   - _params renamed to -> _classes
>   - _maps renamed to -> _params !!
>   - Adjusted the docs accordingly
>- Improved debug modes
>   - \debugcustomize new parameters: no, list, global, global list, global 
>   ID
>   - _debug new parameter: no,
>- angel renamed to: angle + docs
>
> -mario
>

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)

*Regarding fonts ...*

 @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>  
>
>> 2 - SOME NOTES ON FONT SUPPORT - PMario & I already briefly discussed 
>> this. 
>> Its not an issue on the 6 IDs, at least not for European languages. 
>>
>> But it *is an issue if you want to use Unicode characters in \customize 
>> pragma*.
>>
>  

>
>> My point for TW? I'm wondering IF, we could assemble a *custom font *of 
>> say 100 Unicode *typographic *signs (e.g. punctuation marks, markup 
>> symbols, reference signs etc)  and *EMBED* this in a TW?
>>
>
>
PMario ... 

> I'm not the biggest fan of embedded fonts, because of size. ... BUT it 
> will be possible with a second plugin, so users can decide.
>

I agree for complete fonts. I should look at *how big a font of, say, 100 
characters is?*



I personally would install the font. 
>

On computer? Yes. But I'm just wondering if a more TW-centric approach 
would be viable too? (i.e. the embed route, IF font of limited character 
set is small enough?)
 

>  
>
>> Q: Is it possible? Your thoughts?
>>
>  

> I would even consider to create a browser AddOn, that will make the font 
> available for TWs, if users don't want to install new system fonts. 
> I'm not sure if this is possible, but it would be worth a test. 
>

That's encouraging! I had thought it would be very difficult.  

Best wishes
TT

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[twdev] Re: Custom markup (continued 3)