Re: [time-nuts] 60kHz Loop antenna
When I designed mine maybe 20 years ago, I did consider using something like phone cable and ribbon cable, but there was a good performance reason for using the heavier wire. Sadly I can't recall why right now. FWIW, -John === In message 61314.12.6.201.2.1286146064.squir...@popaccts.quikus.com, J. Fors ter writes: Before I got the cannonical antenna for my Austron LORAN Rx, I used a roughly 30 square of 3/4 Cu tubing threaded with a bunch of #18 insulated hookup wire. The slick glop electricians use helped a lot. What a mess though. Telephone cable i neat for big loop-antennas: You get the shield, and up to 1000 colorcoded and patchable wires all ready to go, all you need to do is patch them together with an offset of one. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586B for 60 KHz
The BFO is (are, one for USB and one for LSBY the only oscillator that is not phase locked to the HP10811 inside, and that can be remedied, so it is not hopeless. Didier Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 17:57:05 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586B for 60 KHz It will receive the signal fine, but the internal frequency conversions are likely not phase stable, so it's probably useless for tracking the carrier phase which is needed to use WWVB as a frequency standard. -John === Gents, Wrote Has anybody used a HP 3586B for a 60KHz receiver? If so, how well did it work? Replied Seriously, a HP3586B would be a fine receiver for a WWVB timing setup, but way, way, overkill. Thanks. That’s great news. I have three working and can probably fix three of the other four I have. Yes, I’m nuts about the suckers. FYI, There are articles on how to use this for numerous types frequency measurements on the BAMA web site. Also it can be used as a SSB receiver up to 32 MHz is you can put up with a lack of agc and a good speaker. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60kHz Loop antenna
In message 61314.12.6.201.2.1286146064.squir...@popaccts.quikus.com, J. Fors ter writes: Before I got the cannonical antenna for my Austron LORAN Rx, I used a roughly 30 square of 3/4 Cu tubing threaded with a bunch of #18 insulated hookup wire. The slick glop electricians use helped a lot. What a mess though. Telephone cable i neat for big loop-antennas: You get the shield, and up to 1000 colorcoded and patchable wires all ready to go, all you need to do is patch them together with an offset of one. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
Thanks will in a bit On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: Yahoo has problems try http://n4iqt.com/simloran/ Stanley - Original Message From: Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 10:26:37 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion - Original Message From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: j...@quik.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 10:06:40 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion Won't work completely different. I built a very simple loran c sim and the docs were available online. But just checked the N4IQT links on yahoo and it looks like the infos gone. snip Paul, It's still at: http://www.n4iqt.com/simloran/ If you look for WB8-TSL LORAN C simulator it is still there. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60kHz Loop antenna
I have used 25 pair telco cable. The issue that can happen is the inter pair and strand capacitance can exceed the resonance frequency of the loop. Or resonates below 60 KC. Just a heads up. Using a 3 foot loop was not a problem. Regards On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote: Austron uses an 8 conductor piece of ribbon type antenna rotor cable. They connected all 8 strands together so the loop was a single turn. They used a pot core transformer to help match impedance. When I made my general purpose loop, I made an octagon shaped loop out of 3/4 inch copper pipe, and 45 degree elbows. I used a cast conduit box for the terminations, and a plastic PVC coupler to break continuity at the top of the loop. For the winding, I took a single piece of 25 pair CAT3 cable and soldered the wires to form a 50T loop. I put a toroid balun in the box to convert from 50 ohm unbalanced to 50 ohm balanced... I think? It works pretty nicely as an antenna for my HP3586C. -Chuck Harris J. Forster wrote: When I designed mine maybe 20 years ago, I did consider using something like phone cable and ribbon cable, but there was a good performance reason for using the heavier wire. Sadly I can't recall why right now. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586B for 60 KHz
This was my concern how would it be remedied. Simply is the better ? I would understand DDS as an example On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 6:05 AM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: The BFO is (are, one for USB and one for LSBY the only oscillator that is not phase locked to the HP10811 inside, and that can be remedied, so it is not hopeless. Didier Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 17:57:05 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3586B for 60 KHz It will receive the signal fine, but the internal frequency conversions are likely not phase stable, so it's probably useless for tracking the carrier phase which is needed to use WWVB as a frequency standard. -John === Gents, Wrote Has anybody used a HP 3586B for a 60KHz receiver? If so, how well did it work? Replied Seriously, a HP3586B would be a fine receiver for a WWVB timing setup, but way, way, overkill. Thanks. That’s great news. I have three working and can probably fix three of the other four I have. Yes, I’m nuts about the suckers. FYI, There are articles on how to use this for numerous types frequency measurements on the BAMA web site. Also it can be used as a SSB receiver up to 32 MHz is you can put up with a lack of agc and a good speaker. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
Stanley, The new link does indeed work. Thanks On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:59 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks will in a bit On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: Yahoo has problems try http://n4iqt.com/simloran/ Stanley - Original Message From: Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 10:26:37 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion - Original Message From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: j...@quik.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 10:06:40 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion Won't work completely different. I built a very simple loran c sim and the docs were available online. But just checked the N4IQT links on yahoo and it looks like the infos gone. snip Paul, It's still at: http://www.n4iqt.com/simloran/ If you look for WB8-TSL LORAN C simulator it is still there. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60kHz Loop antenna
Understood. I have gotten better with the loops over the years. Someone mentioned 1000 strand phone cable. On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 12:52 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: 220 pF is about 8' of coax. -John = The coil with 50T and 5 foot diameter is 11.5mH. It would take about 220pf of self capacitance to make it resonate at 100KHz. Anyway, if the capacitance is too much, it's all in the way you splice the ends together in the conduit box. If you want, you can make the loop a single turn with 50 parallel conductors. -Chuck Harris paul swed wrote: I have used 25 pair telco cable. The issue that can happen is the inter pair and strand capacitance can exceed the resonance frequency of the loop. Or resonates below 60 KC. Just a heads up. Using a 3 foot loop was not a problem. Regards ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
I'll be, I missed it US and Canadian Loran C shut down 1 Aug.. So either you pick up Europe or build a loran c sim. Regards On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Stanley, The new link does indeed work. Thanks On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:59 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks will in a bit On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: Yahoo has problems try http://n4iqt.com/simloran/ Stanley - Original Message From: Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 10:26:37 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion - Original Message From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: j...@quik.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 10:06:40 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion Won't work completely different. I built a very simple loran c sim and the docs were available online. But just checked the N4IQT links on yahoo and it looks like the infos gone. snip Paul, It's still at: http://www.n4iqt.com/simloran/ If you look for WB8-TSL LORAN C simulator it is still there. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
I'll be, I missed it US and Canadian Loran C shut down 1 Aug.. So either you pick up Europe or build a loran c sim. Regards On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 2:13 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I'll be, I missed it US and Canadian Loran C shut down 1 Aug.. So either you pick up Europe or build a loran c sim. Regards On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Stanley, The new link does indeed work. Thanks On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:59 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks will in a bit On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: Yahoo has problems try http://n4iqt.com/simloran/ Stanley - Original Message From: Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 10:26:37 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion - Original Message From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: j...@quik.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 10:06:40 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion Won't work completely different. I built a very simple loran c sim and the docs were available online. But just checked the N4IQT links on yahoo and it looks like the infos gone. snip Paul, It's still at: http://www.n4iqt.com/simloran/ If you look for WB8-TSL LORAN C simulator it is still there. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] LORAN C is indeed gone in North America
Just listening to 100 KC and its just noise at -121 dbv. So they did shut Canada down in August. Will listen tonight to see if Europe can be heard from the east coast. Regards ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C is indeed gone in North America
8 -John = Just listening to 100 KC and its just noise at -121 dbv. So they did shut Canada down in August. Will listen tonight to see if Europe can be heard from the east coast. Regards ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Gents, Thanks for all the input on the HP 3586B and the Austron Loran C receiver. I’ll try to distill what’s been said. It appears that using the HP 3586B for a WWVB receiver isn’t a good idea unless I would use my HP 3336B or some other method to phase lock the BFO. Since this seems to be way out of the KISS principle, I will go to plan B. I appreciate the clever circuit to convert the Austron to a phase detector but the effort required to get just a phase detector alone isn’t cost effective for me. Opening up the Austron shows that there is a great deal of space. If the three Loran boards are gutted one of my Lucent Rubidium or Xtal standards will just fit in their place. The power supply appears to be robust for the power required. If not, there is space to add on. So to try to maximize the salvage of my purchase it looks like I should do the following. 1. Gut the Loran boards and get a Lucent unit installed and working. 2. Build a big honkin’ quality 60 KHz loop antenna. I live in the country so I can put up any size I can afford. 3. Convert the Austron RF amp boards to 60 KHz if I can get a schematic and get lucky. Does anyone have one or know where I could download it? 4. If I don’t get lucky, build a TRF receiver in place of the Austron RF boards. 60 KHz crystals are cheap from Mouser. Does anyone have experience building a ladder or similar crystal filter? 5. After I get a good working 60 KHz signal, I‘ll divide it by six and apply it to a Talbot 10 KHz phase detector. The Talbot circuit divides the 10 MHz reference oscillator to 10KHz using 74HC390 decade dividers. It then provides a correction circuit to the reference oscillator from its phase detector. Since the Talbot circuit on uses about six IC’s it will fit nicely in the rear chassis area. The goal, when completed, is to have a WWVB phase locked oscillator (yes I have to figure out what to do about diurnal shift) a reference frequency output and perhaps add a second Talbot phase detector circuit and meter for calibrating other oscillators. Yes, the GPS is more accurate more quickly but the issue is to have a second independent source for cross-checking. Though highly unlikely, GPS satellites can be shot down, disabled or turned off or have their outputs modified at any time. Comments? Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Its not just diurnal shift it plain old jumps anytime. Have been monitoring for periods from the eastcoast using both a Tracor 577 and 2 X HP vlf117 rcvrs. All kinds of stuff occur. But then the older gents know all about that reality. Some may speak up. I like you want a second source but will say I was spoiled by loran. Maybe I did not realize how much. Even though my first loran timing recvr was homebrew in about 1989 as I recall. How far are you from wwvb?? On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com wrote: Gents, Thanks for all the input on the HP 3586B and the Austron Loran C receiver. I’ll try to distill what’s been said. It appears that using the HP 3586B for a WWVB receiver isn’t a good idea unless I would use my HP 3336B or some other method to phase lock the BFO. Since this seems to be way out of the KISS principle, I will go to plan B. I appreciate the clever circuit to convert the Austron to a phase detector but the effort required to get just a phase detector alone isn’t cost effective for me. Opening up the Austron shows that there is a great deal of space. If the three Loran boards are gutted one of my Lucent Rubidium or Xtal standards will just fit in their place. The power supply appears to be robust for the power required. If not, there is space to add on. So to try to maximize the salvage of my purchase it looks like I should do the following. 1. Gut the Loran boards and get a Lucent unit installed and working. 2. Build a big honkin’ quality 60 KHz loop antenna. I live in the country so I can put up any size I can afford. 3. Convert the Austron RF amp boards to 60 KHz if I can get a schematic and get lucky. Does anyone have one or know where I could download it? 4. If I don’t get lucky, build a TRF receiver in place of the Austron RF boards. 60 KHz crystals are cheap from Mouser. Does anyone have experience building a ladder or similar crystal filter? 5. After I get a good working 60 KHz signal, I‘ll divide it by six and apply it to a Talbot 10 KHz phase detector. The Talbot circuit divides the 10 MHz reference oscillator to 10KHz using 74HC390 decade dividers. It then provides a correction circuit to the reference oscillator from its phase detector. Since the Talbot circuit on uses about six IC’s it will fit nicely in the rear chassis area. The goal, when completed, is to have a WWVB phase locked oscillator (yes I have to figure out what to do about diurnal shift) a reference frequency output and perhaps add a second Talbot phase detector circuit and meter for calibrating other oscillators. Yes, the GPS is more accurate more quickly but the issue is to have a second independent source for cross-checking. Though highly unlikely, GPS satellites can be shot down, disabled or turned off or have their outputs modified at any time. Comments? Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
That would explain why my 2100T hasn't worked since I got back from vacation. When the US chains shut down, the commerce department said it would continue those stations that serviced Canada (because of treaties), until November 2010. I guess Canada decided it didn't need that long. I tried during the deliberation process to put some input into the system, but it was refused because I only used the frequency and timing services. The powers that be were only interested in how shutting down Loran would affect the transportation industry. I wonder if they had a clue about how many small businesses they were going to impact when they shut down? -Chuck Harris paul swed wrote: I'll be, I missed it US and Canadian Loran C shut down 1 Aug.. So either you pick up Europe or build a loran c sim. Regards On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Stanley, The new link does indeed work. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
Don't think any of it mattered. The goal was to save the operating costs to show that we are thrifty bunch in government. I was caught a bit off guard I did check my references/standards in late July even early august. Had looked for notices and missed them. Would have taken final checks. Oh well. I am looking forward to listening for Europe and perhaps even getting a lock in the winter. It simply will not be as it was anyhow. Long path distortions. At least the austrons can be used as very very nice frequency comparators. Regards. On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote: That would explain why my 2100T hasn't worked since I got back from vacation. When the US chains shut down, the commerce department said it would continue those stations that serviced Canada (because of treaties), until November 2010. I guess Canada decided it didn't need that long. I tried during the deliberation process to put some input into the system, but it was refused because I only used the frequency and timing services. The powers that be were only interested in how shutting down Loran would affect the transportation industry. I wonder if they had a clue about how many small businesses they were going to impact when they shut down? -Chuck Harris paul swed wrote: I'll be, I missed it US and Canadian Loran C shut down 1 Aug.. So either you pick up Europe or build a loran c sim. Regards On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Stanley, The new link does indeed work. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
Whether they realize or not isn't the issue. They simply don't give a crap. They don't have to. They are the government. -John === That would explain why my 2100T hasn't worked since I got back from vacation. When the US chains shut down, the commerce department said it would continue those stations that serviced Canada (because of treaties), until November 2010. I guess Canada decided it didn't need that long. I tried during the deliberation process to put some input into the system, but it was refused because I only used the frequency and timing services. The powers that be were only interested in how shutting down Loran would affect the transportation industry. I wonder if they had a clue about how many small businesses they were going to impact when they shut down? -Chuck Harris paul swed wrote: I'll be, I missed it US and Canadian Loran C shut down 1 Aug.. So either you pick up Europe or build a loran c sim. Regards On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Stanley, The new link does indeed work. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
On 10/04/2010 11:29 PM, Oz-in-DFW wrote: My understanding is that the shutdown was a purely political decision. USCG couldn't tell the politicians that people will die so it was a savings to be achieved. Given the shutdown costs it will take a few years to break even - so it's actually more expensive in the short run. I heard this weekend that they have already demo'd the Boise City tower because no other agency wanted it. The Alaska tower downing video was nice... pass the chips, will ya? Oh, I do care... but can't really do anything about it, so I guess I just will have to enjoy the ride like the rest of us. I'll keep fooling around with this GPS thingie while we still have it. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
There was a post a couple of days after the shutdown that they had blown up an antenna tower, as I remember. -John = My understanding is that the shutdown was a purely political decision. USCG couldn't tell the politicians that people will die so it was a savings to be achieved. Given the shutdown costs it will take a few years to break even - so it's actually more expensive in the short run. I heard this weekend that they have already demo'd the Boise City tower because no other agency wanted it. On 10/4/2010 3:37 PM, J. Forster wrote: Whether they realize or not isn't the issue. They simply don't give a crap. They don't have to. They are the government. -John -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
Yes that was in alaska it was on the news. 1200ft down in a few seconds. They blew it up because it has a very grave structural issue. I suspect given a drop of time that will be the fate of all the towers. Hmmm now whats happening with those nasty HP Cesiums?? On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 5:53 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: There was a post a couple of days after the shutdown that they had blown up an antenna tower, as I remember. -John = My understanding is that the shutdown was a purely political decision. USCG couldn't tell the politicians that people will die so it was a savings to be achieved. Given the shutdown costs it will take a few years to break even - so it's actually more expensive in the short run. I heard this weekend that they have already demo'd the Boise City tower because no other agency wanted it. On 10/4/2010 3:37 PM, J. Forster wrote: Whether they realize or not isn't the issue. They simply don't give a crap. They don't have to. They are the government. -John -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
NOW THAT IS AN INTERESTING THOUGHT! What the government has done by this order consists of a taking of property. We should be able to file for compensation for the loss of use of all of our expensive timing equipment. They got around that issue with televisions by giving rebates on set top converters. To get the rebate you had to sign a form... that's always a bad sign. -Chuck Harris J. Forster wrote: Maybe we should ship all the old Austrons and other LORAN stuff to the Chairpol in charge of the Coast Guard, collect. -John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
It may be a bit late, but are any Lawyer - Time-Nuts out there? :)) -John NOW THAT IS AN INTERESTING THOUGHT! What the government has done by this order consists of a taking of property. We should be able to file for compensation for the loss of use of all of our expensive timing equipment. They got around that issue with televisions by giving rebates on set top converters. To get the rebate you had to sign a form... that's always a bad sign. -Chuck Harris J. Forster wrote: Maybe we should ship all the old Austrons and other LORAN stuff to the Chairpol in charge of the Coast Guard, collect. -John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AUSTRON MODEL 2100F Conversion
Loran c quite from europe on 80 mtr1/4 wave vert and active antenna. Boo whooo On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 6:40 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: It may be a bit late, but are any Lawyer - Time-Nuts out there? :)) -John NOW THAT IS AN INTERESTING THOUGHT! What the government has done by this order consists of a taking of property. We should be able to file for compensation for the loss of use of all of our expensive timing equipment. They got around that issue with televisions by giving rebates on set top converters. To get the rebate you had to sign a form... that's always a bad sign. -Chuck Harris J. Forster wrote: Maybe we should ship all the old Austrons and other LORAN stuff to the Chairpol in charge of the Coast Guard, collect. -John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
All All of this design and mod info is wonderful and great to fill an engineering project workbook. You can spend about $500US and get a complete HP working system including GPS antenna which I have been monitiring to 10-12 for 14 mos now and it is stable Dr Joe In a message dated 10/4/2010 3:12:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sandee...@yahoo.com writes: Gents, Thanks for all the input on the HP 3586B and the Austron Loran C receiver. I’ll try to distill what’s been said. It appears that using the HP 3586B for a WWVB receiver isn’t a good idea unless I would use my HP 3336B or some other method to phase lock the BFO. Since this seems to be way out of the KISS principle, I will go to plan B. I appreciate the clever circuit to convert the Austron to a phase detector but the effort required to get just a phase detector alone isn’t cost effective for me. Opening up the Austron shows that there is a great deal of space. If the three Loran boards are gutted one of my Lucent Rubidium or Xtal standards will just fit in their place. The power supply appears to be robust for the power required. If not, there is space to add on. So to try to maximize the salvage of my purchase it looks like I should do the following. 1. Gut the Loran boards and get a Lucent unit installed and working. 2. Build a big honkin’ quality 60 KHz loop antenna. I live in the country so I can put up any size I can afford. 3. Convert the Austron RF amp boards to 60 KHz if I can get a schematic and get lucky. Does anyone have one or know where I could download it? 4. If I don’t get lucky, build a TRF receiver in place of the Austron RF boards. 60 KHz crystals are cheap from Mouser. Does anyone have experience building a ladder or similar crystal filter? 5. After I get a good working 60 KHz signal, I‘ll divide it by six and apply it to a Talbot 10 KHz phase detector. The Talbot circuit divides the 10 MHz reference oscillator to 10KHz using 74HC390 decade dividers. It then provides a correction circuit to the reference oscillator from its phase detector. Since the Talbot circuit on uses about six IC’s it will fit nicely in the rear chassis area. The goal, when completed, is to have a WWVB phase locked oscillator (yes I have to figure out what to do about diurnal shift) a reference frequency output and perhaps add a second Talbot phase detector circuit and meter for calibrating other oscillators. Yes, the GPS is more accurate more quickly but the issue is to have a second independent source for cross-checking. Though highly unlikely, GPS satellites can be shot down, disabled or turned off or have their outputs modified at any time. Comments? Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Yes indeed. I also have a hp rcvr. But Pauls request was for an alternate approach. I regularly matched LORAN C wwvb and GPS. It was nice having an alternate. wwvb really isn't but its about all we have now. On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:53 PM, k3...@aol.com wrote: All All of this design and mod info is wonderful and great to fill an engineering project workbook. You can spend about $500US and get a complete HP working system including GPS antenna which I have been monitiring to 10-12 for 14 mos now and it is stable Dr Joe In a message dated 10/4/2010 3:12:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sandee...@yahoo.com writes: Gents, Thanks for all the input on the HP 3586B and the Austron Loran C receiver. I’ll try to distill what’s been said. It appears that using the HP 3586B for a WWVB receiver isn’t a good idea unless I would use my HP 3336B or some other method to phase lock the BFO. Since this seems to be way out of the KISS principle, I will go to plan B. I appreciate the clever circuit to convert the Austron to a phase detector but the effort required to get just a phase detector alone isn’t cost effective for me. Opening up the Austron shows that there is a great deal of space. If the three Loran boards are gutted one of my Lucent Rubidium or Xtal standards will just fit in their place. The power supply appears to be robust for the power required. If not, there is space to add on. So to try to maximize the salvage of my purchase it looks like I should do the following. 1. Gut the Loran boards and get a Lucent unit installed and working. 2. Build a big honkin’ quality 60 KHz loop antenna. I live in the country so I can put up any size I can afford. 3. Convert the Austron RF amp boards to 60 KHz if I can get a schematic and get lucky. Does anyone have one or know where I could download it? 4. If I don’t get lucky, build a TRF receiver in place of the Austron RF boards. 60 KHz crystals are cheap from Mouser. Does anyone have experience building a ladder or similar crystal filter? 5. After I get a good working 60 KHz signal, I‘ll divide it by six and apply it to a Talbot 10 KHz phase detector. The Talbot circuit divides the 10 MHz reference oscillator to 10KHz using 74HC390 decade dividers. It then provides a correction circuit to the reference oscillator from its phase detector. Since the Talbot circuit on uses about six IC’s it will fit nicely in the rear chassis area. The goal, when completed, is to have a WWVB phase locked oscillator (yes I have to figure out what to do about diurnal shift) a reference frequency output and perhaps add a second Talbot phase detector circuit and meter for calibrating other oscillators. Yes, the GPS is more accurate more quickly but the issue is to have a second independent source for cross-checking. Though highly unlikely, GPS satellites can be shot down, disabled or turned off or have their outputs modified at any time. Comments? Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Doesn't someone on here with a Ham license have a Cs standard and could put up a 1pps signal? Simply transmit your callsign within the 1pps (there has to be a way) and we have a non-Govt. time standard if needed. A simple 1pps PSK-31 (or other digital mode) signal would probably work and be completely legal. Let's do this on our own and not rely on Govt. or GPS... Several throughout the world acting together (I'm not a programmer so someone could step up and figure out the logistics for a receiver) and we would have an alternative to GPS (IF/when it stops working). Yes? Just a thought... 73 Brice KA8MAV - Original Message - From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 10:53 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Yes indeed. I also have a hp rcvr. But Pauls request was for an alternate approach. I regularly matched LORAN C wwvb and GPS. It was nice having an alternate. wwvb really isn't but its about all we have now. On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:53 PM, k3...@aol.com wrote: All All of this design and mod info is wonderful and great to fill an engineering project workbook. You can spend about $500US and get a complete HP working system including GPS antenna which I have been monitiring to 10-12 for 14 mos now and it is stable Dr Joe In a message dated 10/4/2010 3:12:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sandee...@yahoo.com writes: Gents, Thanks for all the input on the HP 3586B and the Austron Loran C receiver. I’ll try to distill what’s been said. It appears that using the HP 3586B for a WWVB receiver isn’t a good idea unless I would use my HP 3336B or some other method to phase lock the BFO. Since this seems to be way out of the KISS principle, I will go to plan B. I appreciate the clever circuit to convert the Austron to a phase detector but the effort required to get just a phase detector alone isn’t cost effective for me. Opening up the Austron shows that there is a great deal of space. If the three Loran boards are gutted one of my Lucent Rubidium or Xtal standards will just fit in their place. The power supply appears to be robust for the power required. If not, there is space to add on. So to try to maximize the salvage of my purchase it looks like I should do the following. 1. Gut the Loran boards and get a Lucent unit installed and working. 2. Build a big honkin’ quality 60 KHz loop antenna. I live in the country so I can put up any size I can afford. 3. Convert the Austron RF amp boards to 60 KHz if I can get a schematic and get lucky. Does anyone have one or know where I could download it? 4. If I don’t get lucky, build a TRF receiver in place of the Austron RF boards. 60 KHz crystals are cheap from Mouser. Does anyone have experience building a ladder or similar crystal filter? 5. After I get a good working 60 KHz signal, I‘ll divide it by six and apply it to a Talbot 10 KHz phase detector. The Talbot circuit divides the 10 MHz reference oscillator to 10KHz using 74HC390 decade dividers. It then provides a correction circuit to the reference oscillator from its phase detector. Since the Talbot circuit on uses about six IC’s it will fit nicely in the rear chassis area. The goal, when completed, is to have a WWVB phase locked oscillator (yes I have to figure out what to do about diurnal shift) a reference frequency output and perhaps add a second Talbot phase detector circuit and meter for calibrating other oscillators. Yes, the GPS is more accurate more quickly but the issue is to have a second independent source for cross-checking. Though highly unlikely, GPS satellites can be shot down, disabled or turned off or have their outputs modified at any time. Comments? Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Heathkid wrote: Doesn't someone on here with a Ham license have a Cs standard and could put up a 1pps signal? Simply transmit your callsign within the 1pps (there has to be a way) and we have a non-Govt. time standard if needed. A simple 1pps PSK-31 (or other digital mode) signal would probably work and be completely legal. Let's do this on our own and not rely on Govt. or GPS... Several throughout the world acting together (I'm not a programmer so someone could step up and figure out the logistics for a receiver) and we would have an alternative to GPS (IF/when it stops working). a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Uhmmm There is this station called WWV that does just that on at least 5, 10 and 15MHz. And if you are worried about it being broadcast by the US government, you can always try CHU in Canada. And if you are worried about the station being in North America, there are time stations in virtually every corner of the world. -Chuck Harris Heathkid wrote: Doesn't someone on here with a Ham license have a Cs standard and could put up a 1pps signal? Simply transmit your callsign within the 1pps (there has to be a way) and we have a non-Govt. time standard if needed. A simple 1pps PSK-31 (or other digital mode) signal would probably work and be completely legal. Let's do this on our own and not rely on Govt. or GPS... Several throughout the world acting together (I'm not a programmer so someone could step up and figure out the logistics for a receiver) and we would have an alternative to GPS (IF/when it stops working). ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. Pulsars take a big dish and they aren't all that good as a standard. A friend of mine proved that at Aricebo years and years ago. While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. I've vaguely heard that there are some new ham allocations in the works below 500 KHz. How about setting up a beacon network that works like LORAN, but at a different frequency. A simple downconverter could then feed the signal into a LORAN receiver? FWIW, -John == ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Wow you really missed my point and by having someone listening/monitoring it is not broadcasting. Especially if it is in reality for the most part... telemetry. Maybe I wasn't clear or maybe my message could have been misunderstood. For that, I am truly sorry. I was thinking along the lines of what John stated, a beacon network that works like LORAN * I'll shut up now and go back to just reading the posts for another month or so... 73 Brice KA8MAV - Original Message - From: jimlux jim...@earthlink.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 11:39 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Heathkid wrote: Doesn't someone on here with a Ham license have a Cs standard and could put up a 1pps signal? Simply transmit your callsign within the 1pps (there has to be a way) and we have a non-Govt. time standard if needed. A simple 1pps PSK-31 (or other digital mode) signal would probably work and be completely legal. Let's do this on our own and not rely on Govt. or GPS... Several throughout the world acting together (I'm not a programmer so someone could step up and figure out the logistics for a receiver) and we would have an alternative to GPS (IF/when it stops working). a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
One more note before I just read the posts for a while... a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams Do some reading on telemetry and when broadcasts ARE allowed. I've been a Ham for more than 30+ years. b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV No kidding... but without GPS (and assuming no Internet as well) how do we sync our clocks besides RF? c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? Nothing as long as they are TRANSMITTING. d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. I have three Rb standards to go along with my two Thunderbolts. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. Are you serious? Cheaper? Really? I'll trade you a Thunderbolt... complete kit! for a full Pulsar time/frequency reference receiving station that is reliable (and the real-estate plus equipment for a dish large enough for it!). ;) While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. I have *many* mechanical watches. I can easily calculate NOON from the sun at anytime during the year. That's a reference and I can set my watch by it. I don't need you or anyone else to tell me what time it is. If my watch isn't accurate or precise or is off my 1mS/day (or hour)... does it *really* matter if the GPS sats are down (think about it... why would they be down)? What time is it? *that wasn't my point* it's relative and I'm not going to go further with this discussion. I just thought a time-nuts based time system was an interesting prospect. ...done. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
