Re: [time-nuts] Weird Stuff WareHouse shutting down

[Dave Daniel]

Responding to Jim's post ( I can't find his original post), a 
significant advantage to owning "vintage" instruments is that, in 
general, they may be repaired more easily than later model instruments. 
This fact was my guiding principle when setting up my lab, and that was 
based on Jim Williams' "There's No Place Like Home" article that appears 
as chapter 17 in his book entitled "The Art and Science of Analog 
Circuit Design". The more recent the design of the instrument, the more 
highly integrate is it's circuitry. In many cases, that integration 
manifests itself in the use of VLSI ASICs of one form or another that 
cannot be found, and if one is able to find one to replace a failed 
component, the techniques and tools required to swap it out are 
advanced, perhaps quite advanced. For a corporate enterprise, these 
facilities may be /de rigeur/, but for the home lab, they are, for one 
or more reasons, not feasible and the home lab owner must ship the 
instrument off to some company which can perform the repair or 
calibration at significant cost. I can repair a Tektronix 7104 
oscilloscope. I'm pretty sure I can't repair a Tektronix TDS7104.


DaveD

On 4/8/2018 4:58 PM, Andy ZL3AG via time-nuts wrote:

On 9/04/2018, at 3:52 AM, jimlux wrote:


Test equipment tends to be aged - Unless you have a particular need for a HP 
600 series microwave signal generator, there are probably better sources 
available much cheaper that use more modern components. In this day and age, I 
don't think people should suffer through 141T spectrum analyzers or even a 
8568- Spend your money an a nice USB unit instead.


Blasphemy!


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Re: [time-nuts] Introduction ... HP 3586

[Dave Daniel]

I concur. That is a great write-up on the 3586.

However, note that there are at least three revisions of that document 
(version 2.0, 2004, version 2.1, 2007 and 2.2, 2007). Version 2.1 (at 
least in the copy that I have) is missing the front panel figures in 
section 4 and the schematic figures in Appendix C. The copy on the KO4BB 
website is revision 2.2, which has the figures in section 4 but is 
missing the schematic figures in Appendix C.


DaveD

On 3/29/2018 11:59 AM, Gregory Beat wrote:

I highly recommend the Practical Guide created by Bill Feldmann, N6PY (sk, 
2007),
found in the KO4BB repository.
—
NOTE: Check for damage by the NiCad battery !!
—-
A PRACTICAL GUIDE FOR USING THE HP 3586A/B/C SELECTIVE LEVEL METER
Expanded Version, (Version 2.2), September 2007
by Bill Feldmann, N6PY
(Addition of figures and repagination courtesy of Perry Sandeen 7/09)
http://www.ko4bb.com/manuals/24.14.254.9/A_Practical_Guide_For_Using_The_HP_3586.pdf

The HP 3586 family of Selective Level Meters was designed for the measurement 
of low power or voltage levels on telephone lines carrying multiplexed single 
side band radio frequency signals along with lower frequency audio signals. 
It’s designed to test and troubleshoot parameters commonly found on these 
lines. This instrument is a very sensitive, selective and accurately calibrated 
receiver that’s also capable of outputting a very low distortion signal of 0dBm 
at exactly the frequency it’s tuned to.
==
greg, w9gb

Sent from iPad Air
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Re: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question

[Dave Daniel]

Hi, Bill.

I have three GC-1000s, one unbuilt and two built. Both of the built 
radios have stopped showing a time display. I haven't had a chance to 
figure out what happened to them. I live very close to Fort Collins, CO.


I experience power failures fairly often and when my clocks were working 
they used to take a very long time (on the order of a day) to re-sync 
after power came back on. I am wondering if the power failures might 
have damaged my radios in some way.


Have you double-checked the settings on your radio against the manual, 
and have you done any experiments to see if the receiving conditions 
where you have your clock located haven't changed or are not conducive 
to reception?


DaveD

On 2/5/2018 9:19 AM, Bill Baker via time-nuts wrote:

I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but not used for 
many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes freezes up.  Can any of our 
"nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?

Bill, w1...@aol.com
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Re: [time-nuts] HP nixie counters, free!

[Dave Daniel]

Scott,

Do you have any plugins for the 5245Ls?

DaveD

Sent from a small flat thingy

> On Jan 5, 2018, at 11:10, David Scott Coburn  wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I have some old HP nixie tube counters (5245Ls) which I would like to give 
> away to a good home.  See the attached photo.  (Sorry for the poor quality.)
> 
> Some of them power on, some of them do not.  I don't think any of them 
> actually work correctly.  They would be good for parts.
> 
> I am giving these away for free to anyone who is interested.
> 
> I would rather not have to box these up and ship them.  I am located on Long 
> Island (NY) and would be willing to drive them part way (within reason!) to 
> meet if you are willing.
> 
> I tried Craig's list with no luck.  I do not want the hassle of eBay.
> 
> If no one is interested I will probably tear them down and get the various 
> parts into the right metal recycling bins at the landfill (sadly).
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Scott
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Modeling in SPICE

[Dave Daniel]

With respect to your first question, I subscribe to MWJ and, after a 
modest amount of looking on the web, find that the MWJ archives seem to 
go back only as far as 2002. I was unable to locate a copy of the 1988 
paper elsewhere on the web, which seems strange. Perhaps someone out 
there has a paper copy and can scan it. I would also imagine that a 
paper copy could be located in some university library.


But then, you have probably already been down those same paths.

DaveD

On 10/27/2017 1:01 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:

Hoi Ulrich,

On Sun, 22 Oct 2017 18:31:33 -0400
Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts  wrote:


Eric has done a lot of excellent work, I know his presentations . While
I do no always agree with the ADS approach and use my own software the ADS
is a very good all-round CAD microwave CAD tool. More on the topic addressed
you will find under
http://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/29151-noise-analysis-then-and-today

Perfectly timed article! :-)
I did not have time to go through all the references yet, but I have a few
questions:

1) Is it possible to get
U. L. Rohde, A. M. Pavio and R. A. Pucel, “Accurate Noise Simulation of 
Microwave Amplifiers Using CAD,” Microwave Journal, Vol. 31, No. 12, December 
1988, pp. 130-141.
somewhere? MWJ is pretty bad when it comes to accessing old issues.

2) How do you come up with accurate noise models/parameters for the transistors?
As far as I can tell, the spice models provided by the manufacturers have
often only a very crude approximation of what the real noise parameters
look like (if any at all) and have to be corrected to match reality.

3) What about the ADS approach do you not like?

4) What is your own software? And would it be possible to get access to it?


Side note: I do not fully understand how spice (or CAE software in general)
performs noise simulation, hence I do not trust it. So the simulations
I do are kind of syntetic that only take certain noise sources into account
which I deemed the ones dominating.

Attila Kinali



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Re: [time-nuts] HP8640

[Dave Daniel]

There is, or was, a member of the Yahoo hp_agilent forum who was making 
metal replacement gears for the HP8640. I believe several members 
replaced the plastic gears with the new metal ones and were able to 
bring their instruments back to life.


DaveD

On 6/7/2017 8:56 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:

I think it will be difficult to find a well working 8640, plastic gears
will have by now totally disintegrated. What part of it do you need, I may
have  something left.
Bert Kehren
  
  
In a message dated 6/6/2017 9:06:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

time-nuts@febo.com writes:

Hi , I  am trying to find an well working  HP 8640 to do some  measurements
  
like SSB  FM and AM noise.


Who can help ?  73 de Ulrich  N1UL
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Re: [time-nuts] Machining some aluminum help!

[Dave Daniel]

This is fairly easy to do on a vertical mill, but it can be done using a 
drill press.


I would machine and drill the end plates first. Then I would use 
hot-glue or double-sided tape to attach one of the end plates to the 
tube ends and use the end plate as a drilling guide to drill and tap the 
holes in the tube. The critical aspect of drilling the tube holes is 
that the end of the tube that is being drilled has to be absolutely 
perpendicular to the drill bit.


The drill press can also be used to tap the holes - with the drill press 
power off, install the tap and hand turn the spindle while using the 
lever arm to gently follow the tap in as it cuts. Since it is aluminum, 
hand-tapping the holes without using the drill press should be fairly 
easy also.


DaveD

On 5/18/2017 10:54 AM, cdel...@juno.com wrote:

Hi,

I have a square aluminum tube 5" X 5" with a .25" wall it's 8 1/2" long.

I need 20 holes in each end tapped for 4/40 and 1/2" deep.

This is for a Rubidium project.

The local machine shop want's $360.00

Anyone have a machining setup that could do the work a bit cheaper?

If not I'll give it a try myself.

Please contact me off list.

Thanks!

Corby Dawson

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Re: [time-nuts] PLL Digital Loop Filter

[Dave Daniel]

Roland Best, "Phase Locked Loops". I see from Amazon that it is up the 
6th edition. I think I have the 3rd edition.


https://www.amazon.com/Phase-Locked-Loops-Simulation-Applications/dp/0071493751/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8=1490121310=8-1=best+phase+locked+loops

I took a PLL class at StorageTek a while back; an earlier revision of 
this book was used and I found it to be a good text.


DaveD

On 3/21/2017 9:19 AM, paul swed wrote:

Have to say a search for  PLL book by Best generates lots of stuff. None of
it about PLLs. Better hint please? I think Lyons may be a bit better.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 7:39 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:


On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 21:32:28 -0700
James Peroulas  wrote:


I'm trying to understand how to design and analyze the loop filters in a
digital PLL. Specifically, because of digital processing delays, the

phase

offset measured at time t will only produce a change on the VCXO input at
time t+T, where T is the sampling period of the digital loop.

You have the same delays in analog filters as well. As a rule of thumb
you can assume that the delays are in the same order of magnitude as
with the equivalent analog filters, not accounting for the delays due to
pre- and post-processing of the signal.

The analysis of digital PLLs works the same as with analog ones, you
just exchange the Laplace transform with the Z-transform. You can add
arbitrary delays due to pre/post-processing as a simple multiplication
by 1/z for each clock cycle of delay.


I've found plenty of texts describing analog loop filters. Are there any
recommendations for digital loop filter PLL design?

The PLL book by Best contains two chapters on how to design digital PLLs.
I can also recommend "Understanding digital signal processing" by Lyons,
which is a very hands-on description how to do filters and perform other
signal processing tasks.


 Attila Kinali

--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] that's really awesome

[Dave Daniel]

I treated that email as spam and deleted it.

DaveD


On 6/22/2016 9:07 AM, Chuck Harris wrote:

I can't imagine anyone following a link that is presented in this way.

I love a lot of things, how about telling me why, as a time-nut, that
I should love it?

As it is, this looks just like many, many, spambots taking over a list.

-Chuck Harris

hbonho...@freenet.de wrote:
hi, I think this story is really awesome, you're gonna love it, 
please read it

here 

All the best, hbonho...@freenet.de

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Re: [time-nuts] Looking for a Linux user with a Z3816/Z3815/HP5xxxx

[Dave Daniel]

You can just remove the .exe extension on the file and have the 
recipient add it back on once the file is received.


DaveD


On 5/23/2016 1:42 PM, Mark Sims wrote:

I have added some code to Lady Heather to talk to SCPI GPSDOs (also Motorola, 
Ublox, and NMEA) and am looking for a guinea pig to test it...  I have a Z3801A 
and want to see if it is also 3815/3816/etc compatible.  Please contact me off 
list.
I might be able to send a WIndows .EXE , but a lot of ISP's want to block those 
 (you would need to first have Lady Heather installed from the ke5fx.com site)  
Most Linux people should easily be able to build it from the source files.


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Re: [time-nuts] Looking for OCXO

[Dave Daniel]

Reed Dickinson sells a small oscilloscope calibrator that is well suited 
for checking 'scope operation "in the field", at hamfests or when 
stumbles across a seemingly nice 'scope in the local electronics store. 
It is a very nice, compact instrument. See


http://www.ebay.com/itm/CALIBRATOR-AND-TESTER-FOR-TEKTRONIX-OSCILLOSCOPES-NEW-WARRANTED-CALIBRATED-/131638462260?hash=item1ea6438734:g:ZqQAAOSw14xWLxEy

The price seems to have gone up substantially since I purchased mine.

I am not associated with Reed, but I am a satisfied customer.

DaveD

On 2/25/2016 5:46 PM, Nathan Johnson wrote:
I'm going to be taking some oscilloscopes to a hamfest this summer, 
and I am
going to have a truck full of stuff anyway, and would like to avoid 
hauling my
signal generator to provide a demonstration of the scopes. Does 
anybody have a
50MHZ+ OCXO or other oscillator with a coax(sma/bnc) that they would 
like to
part with? Something that doesn't meet time nuts standards is 
perfectly fine,
just want something that is faster than the built in calibrator on the 
scopes.

Nathan KK4REY

Sent using CloudMagic Email
[https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi=7.4.15=9.1=email_footer_2] 


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Re: [time-nuts] Digital Phasae Lock Loops

[Dave Daniel]

Roland Best's text is the best (no pun intended) one I have seen on 
PLLs. I didn't know it was up to a sixth edition.


On 10/16/2015 11:18 AM, Alexander Pummer wrote:

Hi Steve,
I will tell you a big secret; a digital PLL is not a low phase noise 
system and a very good introduction to PLLs and the digital PLL could 
be found in Roland Bests:



 Phase Locked Loops 6/e: Design, Simulation, and Applications

73
KJ6UHN
Alex


On 10/16/2015 7:45 AM, Martyn Smith wrote:

Hello,

I want to design a digital phase lock loop.

I intend to lock a 10 MHz ultra low noise oscillator that we make to 
an external frequency standard.


I need a digital PLL as I’m trying to get a loop bandwidth < 0.1 Hz.

Has anyone had any experience of Digital PLL’s or can point me to any 
documents published?


Regards

Steve
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Re: [time-nuts] Digital Phasae Lock Loops

[Dave Daniel]

Wasn't Dr. Gardner the author of "the other" PLL book? Or am I confusing 
his name with another Gardner?


DaveD

On 10/16/2015 4:33 PM, Alexander Pummer wrote:
actually my old friend Dr. Floyd Gardner -- who is the pope of the 
phase locked loops -- told me some thirty years ego , that the Best 
book os a very good introduction

73
Alex

On 10/16/2015 1:42 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:
Roland Best's text is the best (no pun intended) one I have seen on 
PLLs. I didn't know it was up to a sixth edition.


On 10/16/2015 11:18 AM, Alexander Pummer wrote:

Hi Steve,
I will tell you a big secret; a digital PLL is not a low phase noise 
system and a very good introduction to PLLs and the digital PLL 
could be found in Roland Bests:



 Phase Locked Loops 6/e: Design, Simulation, and Applications

73
KJ6UHN
Alex


On 10/16/2015 7:45 AM, Martyn Smith wrote:

Hello,

I want to design a digital phase lock loop.

I intend to lock a 10 MHz ultra low noise oscillator that we make 
to an external frequency standard.


I need a digital PLL as I’m trying to get a loop bandwidth < 0.1 Hz.

Has anyone had any experience of Digital PLL’s or can point me to 
any documents published?


Regards

Steve
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Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components

[Dave Daniel]

Some other books which are good are:

Applications of Magnetism, Watson
Electromagnetic Device, Roters
Magnetic Properties of Materials, Smit (ed.)
Transformer Design Handbook, McLyman (I'm not sure if I have the 
author correct on this one, but it is a classic)

Introduction to Ferromagnetism, Bitter (Bell Labs series)
Magnetic Phenomena, Williams
Ferromagnetism, Bozworth (another Bell Labs title)
Introduction to Magnetic Materials, Cullity
Magnetism: Selected Topics, Foner
Permanent Magnets, McCaig
The Physical Principles of Magnetism, Morrish


The best books I have found on high-frequency transformers are
Building and Using Baluns and Ununs by Jerry Sevick
Ferromagnetic-Core Design  Application Handbook, DeMaw

PDF versions of some of these my be found on Scribd. I haven't checked 
for all of them.


DaveD


On 6/22/2015 9:59 PM, John Allen wrote:

Hi all - this website has some older books from the 50's and 60's  that may 
help.
Links are at
http://tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm
Most of the way to the bottom of the page.

I hope this is helpful..

Passive components (transformers, capacitors...)

Capacitors, Magnetic Circuits, and Transformers, Leander Matsch, 1964, 350 pages
A detailed text on capacitors, inductors, and transformers.  Great info for 
those wanting a deep understanding of these passive components.  Good theory 
and practical applications, especially on transformers and inductors.
Download full text with index, 3.2MB PDF file

Electronic Transformers and Circuits, Reuben Lee, 1955, 349 pages - Courtesy of 
John Atwood
This book is a reference on the design of transformers and electronic 
apparatus.  It covers the design of power transformers, chokes, and signal (audio) 
transformers.  It also talks a bit about circuitry, as it relates to transformers. Enough 
theory to understand what's going on, as well as practical info on how to construct 
transformers.
Download full text, 24MB PDF file

Handbook of Piezoelectric Crystals,  John P. Buchanan, 1956, 701 pages - 
Courtesy of an anonymous donor
Wow - of military origin, a 700 page book about crystals!  A rare source of 
information on peizo crystals, as they relate mostly to communications.
Download full text,   48MB PDF file

Hipersil® Core Design Engineer's Handbook, Westinghouse , 1965, 108 pages
This is a design guide and materials databook for Westinghouse Hipersil 
transformer cores.   A good design guide for transformers and cokes, and has 
detailed material data (curves and data tables) for Hipersil steel.
Download full text, 1.9MB PDF file

John, K1AE



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Re: [time-nuts] potential source for cheap copy of labview

[Dave Daniel]

Thanks for that update. I hadn't looked on the Mathworks website in 
quite some time.  I looked again after seeing your post, and I see that 
a home bundle is once again available. This is what I have from 1999.


I have also used Octave, although not as much as I have used MatLab and 
Simulink.


DaveD

On 6/20/2015 7:18 PM, Jim Lux wrote:

On 6/20/15 3:03 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:

I wish the MathWorks would resume that practice. Back in the late 90s
they would sell one licenses for MatLab and SimuLink for an affordable
price if one singed an agreement that restricted one to personal
(specifically, non-commercial) use. My copy from back then is so old
that it won't run on Windows 7.



Mathworks still does a variety of low cost licenses, including a $149 
for Matlab home license + $45 for add on products. (not for 
academic, commercial, govt, or organizational use)


They also have a $49/$99 student license in conjunction with 
coursework at a degree granting institution.  I suppose that you 
could sign up for a class at the local community college.(that's gone 
up a lot with a bunch of added fees around here)


The new matlab has drivers/simulink blocks to handle a lot of hobby 
type hardware platforms (RPi, Arduino, LEGO Mindstorms NXT)



One can also use Octave, which is very, very similar to Matlab (I go 
back and forth between the two all the time).  Octave doesn't 
necessarily have all the nice toolboxes that Matlab has. And, the 
plotting is done differently (which is a significant issue, since a 
lot of what I use matlab and octave for is generating nice looking 
plots).




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[time-nuts] HP 3586A documents

[Dave Daniel]

I have recently acquired a used HP 3586A.

Awhile back, in 2013, there was a thread that discussed the availability 
of Mr. Bill Feldman's A PRACTICAL GUIDE FOR USING THE HP3586A.pdf, 
which I have found on the BAMA website. However, as pointed out in the 
earlier thread, the schematics for the various accessories are not 
contained in the document.


Has anyone since found the relevant PDF files (I believe that they are 
named C1-C2.PDF, C3.PDF).


There was also, apparently, a list of caps that should be replaced in 
this instrument. If anyone has a copy of that, it would be very useful 
to me.


Thanks
DaveD
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Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix Sample Heads

[Dave Daniel]

You also might want to look in the Sampling Oscilloscope Circuits book 
from the Tektronix Circuit Conceptsseries.


DaveD

On 4/27/2015 8:26 AM, Ivan Cousins wrote:

There is another source of information that is available.

Try looking up US patents US4755742 US4678345 US4727340.

These explain about the whole system and the sampling heads.

I think the best concept is the SD-24 dual TDR head.

Ivan Cousins
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS position averaging

[Dave Daniel]

I am new to this list and to this topic, but it seems to me that if one 
wants to come up with an average of a set of spatial measurements, one 
would use distance as the parameter to be averaged. The distance would 
presumably be that from a fixed spatial reference point (0,0,0). One 
would then take the square root of the sum of the squares of latitude, 
longitude and height. My problem with this is that I can't see what one 
would use for the reference point, but maybe that is not important (or 
maybe it is!).


DaveD

On 12/15/2014 2:48 AM, Hal Murray wrote:

olep...@gmail.com said:

My question is twofold; 1) is this for some reason a bad idea? And 2) How do
I average the numbers? I can not put my finger on it but it feels wrong to
average lat, long and height independently.

It seems like an interesting idea to me.

It would be interesting to run a test: setup a pair of identical GPSDOs
running off the same antenna but using different locations and see if you can
see any difference in the PPS or 10 MHz output.

You can do a filtering pass to dump anything with fewer than 4 satellites.
The survey code has a mode where it says bad geometry.  I don't know the
fine print on how that works.

I can get my elevation off a topo map.  I'm not sure how to translate that to
GPS coordinates.  Something like that might be another opportunity for
filtering.

The refclock part of ntpd filters a batch of samples by discarding outliers.
Time is only one dimension, so the recipe is pretty simple: sort, compute the
average, discard either the top or bottom, whichever is farther from the
average.  I'm not sure how to do something similar in 2 or 3 dimensions.

It might be interesting to make histograms of HDOP and friends.  (before and
after any filtering you can come up with?)  That may cover the bad-geometry
case.







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Re: [time-nuts] Which First GPSDO to buy?

[Dave Daniel]

Well, thanks, everyone, for the information. I appreciate the help.

First, I am presently not up to adding another project to my long list 
of projects. I get whiplash every time I walk into the lab. Building a 
GPSDO sound like fun. Perhaps down the line.


I figured I should add some information about myself: I am an electrical 
engineer (currently employed) with a lot of digital/Verilog experience 
and a fair bit of analog experience (but less than my digital 
experience) and quite a bit of software experience, all of this from 
working for about thirty-eight years on various embedded systems. 
Currently, I shy away from writing code just because I don't enjoy it 
much and have done too much professionally. But I know that eventually I 
will need to write code in my lab. Presently, I am in the process of 
restoring some older ham radio gear, but I became sidetracked from that 
by the necessity to repair a bunch of vintage test equipment which 
effort has somehow taken on a life of it's own.


What I need right now is a frequency standard that is accurate enough to 
use as a reference for things like calibrating test gear. I also want to 
play with one before I build one. Just going through all of the 
educational material is a daunting task. I figured I'd combine an 
interest with GPSDOs in general with a need for an accurate enough 
standard (I use the term loosely here) to get some instruments 
calibrated.


Thanks again for all the information!

Cheers,
DaveD

I had forgotten about the LTE-lite; I should add that to the list of 
choices. I'm tending towards either a 10 MHz version of that or the 
Lucent boxes.

On 12/14/2014 8:00 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi


On Dec 14, 2014, at 12:47 AM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote:

I tried to see just how simple, low cost and self contained I could make a
GPSDO.  I started with the Lars Walenius design then removed everything I
could from it.  I replace all the software with just a small loop with
about a dozen lines of code so it would be easy to understand.

My goal was to make something that could be built and tested using just
basic equipment.  The question is of course How do you know the unit is
making a 10 MHz signal if you don't already have a 10MHz reference to
compare it to?  Well you can assume that your 1PPS reference is accurate.

Except that the GPS PPS is *not* perfect, far from it. It’s only reasonably 
accurate over very long time spans. Over short spans the pps moves around a lot.


Then you count and make sure you see EXACTLY 10,000,000 oscillator cycles
per each PPS.

If you do a tight lock (“EXACTLY”)  against a GPS PPS that is moving +/- 10 ns, 
your frequency will swing +/- 1x10^-8 every second


Count both for a few days and verify the ratio remains at
ten million to one, exactly.

Ok, that’s looking at the long term where GPS is indeed accurate. That’s the 
easy part on any GPSDO design.


  I ran mine for about 8 weeks and it stays at
the desired ratio.I know this is not a perfect test because it could
have been running at zero hertz for 30 seconds and then 20MHz for 30
seconds but I assume the OCXO is better than that.   The point is that once
you have the GPS working you DO have a  pretty good 1Hz reference.

Well, not quite so fast. You just jumped over a massive amount of work that 
normally gets done on a GPS. A unit that *was* swinging +/- 1x10^-8 every 
second would pass your test. (which is not in any way to say that your design 
actually does that).  It would make a lousy GPSDO for most uses. You very much 
*do* need to check the ADEV (or what ever) close in and tune your filter up to 
match your parts.


Cost:
Motorola Oncore GPS$18
magnnetic patch antenna   6
OCXO (eBay)   19
Arduino, mini  3
PLL chip 2
TTL diver chip1
Plug-in power cube0
perf-board  1

Total cost of GPSDO $50

Just a side note - A *lot* of the $19 OCXO’s I have from eBay are in very poor 
shape spec wise. Testing them before using them would be a very good idea.

Bob



Actually I do have A Thunderbolt.  I place the 10MHz output of the above
unit and the TB on my dual channel scope and was able to see the phase of
the two 10MHz references was locked.  I saw the phase drift over about an
hour but then it would pull back.   But I made this very simple and it
could be better.

Actually I've added  some features to it like a 2 line by 16 character LCD
display and some status LEDs.  And I can log data to a computer via a USB
cable so it is easy to plot data and it is using my more expansive mast
mounted timing antenna.

The Arduino based design is OK for controlling an OCXO but I think it is
best used for controlling my Rubidium oscillator.  The RB is so stable I
should only update the frequency control every few hours at most.

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Jim Harman j99har...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sat, Dec 13, 

Re: [time-nuts] Which First GPSDO to buy?

[Dave Daniel]

Thanks. See below:

On 12/14/2014 1:48 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Ok so down to two choices:


LTE Lite:

1) Comes up nice and fast (it’s a TCXO)

2) Modern GPS receiver

3) Good documentation

4) Very low power

5) Nice small size

Good so far.


6) Needs a box

Boxes I have.


7) You know where to find Jackson Labs if there is a problem

8) Getting a couple more in a couple years may be possible

Also good.


Lucent:

1) More accurate if you keep it on (it’s an OCXO)

2) Spare parts set (= the second box) when you buy the pair

3) Comes with a (clunky) enclosure

4) Outputs are already isolated / buffered

All good.

5) Needs an antenna ($30 or so for a good one, $3 for a simple one)

OK, doesn't sound too expensive.

6) Needs a power supply ($20 maybe less)
I have a bunch of DC power supplies sitting in the storage closet. Or I 
can build one. It's pretty simple.


7) Hook it up and check it out fast, there’s a 30 day warranty (which the guy 
does honor)

8) Once this guy sells out, there may not be many more.
Yes, I have been thinking about that. Maybe get one of these just to do 
it before they are gone.


Both:

1) You still need to mount the antenna somewhere
The lab is one the second floor; It shouldn't be a problem to add it to 
the breakout box going outside the room to the exterior.


2) You need to distribute the 10 MHz or 1 pps to your gear

Yes, I haven't figured that out yet. But it will be fun.


3) With only one you will always be wondering “what if it’s wrong?”. Having two 
only confuses this situation ….
One really needs three at a minimum. But acquiring three starts with 
acquiring one.


4) Neither one lets you play much with the loop (filtering), both are pretty 
much optimum for the hardware as received

I think this where building one oneself comes in. Or buying the Thunderbolt.


5) Price wise not a lot of difference. Both will be $200-ish once you get them 
delivered and set up without the distribution stuff.

Yes, and that is affordable while I am still working.


What to do - get some of each :)
Precisely my conclusion. I need to buy one of each. This is precisely 
how I ended up with thirteen Tektronix oscilloscopes. It's the same process.


And right in the middle of Christmas gift-buying season.

A very useful summary. Thanks!

DaveD

 Bob

On Dec 14, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Dave Daniel kc0...@gmail.com wrote:

Well, thanks, everyone, for the information. I appreciate the help.

First, I am presently not up to adding another project to my long list of 
projects. I get whiplash every time I walk into the lab. Building a GPSDO sound 
like fun. Perhaps down the line.

I figured I should add some information about myself: I am an electrical 
engineer (currently employed) with a lot of digital/Verilog experience and a 
fair bit of analog experience (but less than my digital experience) and quite a 
bit of software experience, all of this from working for about thirty-eight 
years on various embedded systems. Currently, I shy away from writing code just 
because I don't enjoy it much and have done too much professionally. But I know 
that eventually I will need to write code in my lab. Presently, I am in the 
process of restoring some older ham radio gear, but I became sidetracked from 
that by the necessity to repair a bunch of vintage test equipment which effort 
has somehow taken on a life of it's own.

What I need right now is a frequency standard that is accurate enough to use as a reference for 
things like calibrating test gear. I also want to play with one before I build one. 
Just going through all of the educational material is a daunting task. I figured I'd combine an 
interest with GPSDOs in general with a need for an accurate enough standard (I use the 
term loosely here) to get some instruments calibrated.

Thanks again for all the information!

Cheers,
DaveD

I had forgotten about the LTE-lite; I should add that to the list of choices. 
I'm tending towards either a 10 MHz version of that or the Lucent boxes.
On 12/14/2014 8:00 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi


On Dec 14, 2014, at 12:47 AM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote:

I tried to see just how simple, low cost and self contained I could make a
GPSDO.  I started with the Lars Walenius design then removed everything I
could from it.  I replace all the software with just a small loop with
about a dozen lines of code so it would be easy to understand.

My goal was to make something that could be built and tested using just
basic equipment.  The question is of course How do you know the unit is
making a 10 MHz signal if you don't already have a 10MHz reference to
compare it to?  Well you can assume that your 1PPS reference is accurate.

Except that the GPS PPS is *not* perfect, far from it. It’s only reasonably 
accurate over very long time spans. Over short spans the pps moves around a lot.


Then you count and make sure you see EXACTLY 10,000,000 oscillator cycles
per each PPS.

If you do a tight lock (“EXACTLY

[time-nuts] Which First GPSDO to buy?

[Dave Daniel]

All,

As a relative newcomer to this list, I have been reading the posts 
concerning GPSDOs. I have what I hope is a simple question.


For a newcomer to this field, which GPSDO would be better to purchase as 
a first-time acquisition:


- This LUCENT/SYMMETRICOM Z3810AS, KS24361 L101/L102, HP-KIO OEM GPSDO 
TIMING SYSTEM, eBay item 321560316836, or


- This Nortel Trimble NTBW50AA GPSTM 10MHz Oscillator GPSDO + Antenna 
Acc. Thunderbolt, eBay item 301434579384


I am looking for a reference for my lab. Experimentation with GPSDOs 
will come later.


Thanks
DaveD
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Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

[Dave Daniel]

I remember the Fast and Damn Fast Buffer Amp data sheet. LH0036? I may 
not be remembering the correct part number.  I used to have a copy of 
that data sheet, as well as another that was labeled DC to Daylight on 
the data sheet.


DaveD

On 11/19/2014 2:42 PM, Mike Feher wrote:

Hi Doug -

Wow. Wonder how many on here remember or know about National's Damn Fast 
line, HI. I used them all the time, and, still have a few. 73 - Mike

Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960 office
908-902-3831 cell


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Doug Ronald
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:21 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
Importance: Low

I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull 
and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an 
LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus 
electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.

-Doug, AE6SY

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

HI

Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.

Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a 
simple single transistor stage and a  tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned 
single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when 
mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to 
tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design 
textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.

Bob


On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.

Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 
days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle

[Dave Daniel]

Is that the A Two Diode Frequency Doubler article by John Pivnichny?

DaveD

On 11/12/2014 10:47 PM, Don Latham wrote:

I digitized the first 2011 article to hand, the one in Jan-Feb; it's a smaller
article, and not as elegant as the later one. Anyone interested can email me
off-list. You're allowed to have a copy for your own use, just can't
re-publish.
Don

Jim Sanford

I'm a member, and the article is not there -- just the Excel spreadsheet
and a Word document of the parts list.
Too bad, I have a handful of 5 MHzx TCXOs.
I may have hardcopy of the issue, will have to dig for it.

Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 11/12/2014 3:34 PM, Dave M wrote:

I am able to download the files associated with the article, but not
the article itself.  Guess I need to be a paying member to get the
article.  The only files in the download are the XLS file for
calculating the filter values, and the parts list.

It's at http://www.arrl.org/qexfiles in the year 2011 listings,
filename 3x11_Roos.zip
titled Converting a Vintage 5 MHz Frequency Standard to 10 MHz with a
Low Spurious Frequency Doubler

Dave M

John C. Roos via time-nuts wrote:

Several list members contacted me expressing interest in the
article. None of them were able to download much or anything
from the ARRL QEX web site. That includes me and other ARRL members.
I am working the issue with one call to ARRL so far today. I will
contact Larry Wolfgang at ARRL and see what Ican bust loose. So
hang in there. It is a cute technique, not originated by me, but
useful. Right now I have to get the ARRL FMT done first.
-73 john c roos k6iql


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Re: [time-nuts] Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle

[Dave Daniel]

I believe I have a PDF copy of the article if anyone wants it. It's 
about 1.3 MB in size.


DaveD

On 11/12/2014 2:36 PM, Don Latham wrote:

It's interesting. I took the hint, and tried sin(a)*sin(b) expand and set
b=a+pi/2. fun fun fun.
All that's needed in theory is a mixer and a pi/2 phase shifter at 5 MHz.
Probably a bunch of other stuff because of real parts :-) Minicircuits will
sell you one, packaged, for about 50 rasbucknicks.
Don

Dave M

I am able to download the files associated with the article, but not the
article itself.  Guess I need to be a paying member to get the article.  The
only files in the download are the XLS file for calculating the filter
values, and the parts list.

It's at http://www.arrl.org/qexfiles in the year 2011 listings, filename
3x11_Roos.zip
titled Converting a Vintage 5 MHz Frequency Standard to 10 MHz with a Low
Spurious Frequency Doubler

Dave M

John C. Roos via time-nuts wrote:

Several list members contacted me expressing interest in the
article. None of them were able to download much or anything
from the ARRL QEX web site. That includes me and other ARRL members.
I am working the issue with one call to ARRL so far today. I will
contact Larry Wolfgang at ARRL and see what Ican bust loose. So
hang in there. It is a cute technique, not originated by me, but
useful. Right now I have to get the ARRL FMT done first.
-73 john c roos k6iql


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Re: [time-nuts] HOW WE GOT TO NOW WITH STEVEN JOHNSON | Time An Inside Look | PBS

[Dave Daniel]

I just heard about this book on NPR.

On 10/25/2014 12:51 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi:

I don't have TV and wonder if anyone who has PBS can comment on this 
program?

preview at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhDvGhFbpq8



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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Thermal fuse?

[Dave Daniel]

I believe a thermal cut-out is a device which interrupts the circuit 
when a prescribed temperature is reached or exceeded (in some cases by  
heating from an increase in current through a conductor), but which 
re-connects the circuit once the temperature has dropped below the 
cut-out temperature (possibly with some hysteresis built in). A fuse, on 
the other hand, interrupts the circuit after a certain current threshold 
is exceeded (and, of course there is an increase in temperature related 
to the increase in current) but which is destroyed in the process out 
interrupting the circuit.


DaveD

On 9/2/2014 5:10 PM, Dan Rae wrote:

On 9/2/2014 12:23 PM, Dan Rae wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed to death before, but does anyone 
know of a source of thermal fuses small enough to fit in the -hp- 
10811?  I have found plenty of larger ones, none of which will fit 
and would rather not just link it out.


Dan
___

Thanks for all the tips and advice.

The Chinese eBay ones (15A) I have bought before and they are 
physically too big to fit.


Buerklin is a German distributor and will want 28 Euros to ship to the 
US.


I know I can link it out, but don't like doing that in something that 
is powered on permanently.


I have found some Panasonic ones that Digikey distribute in the US, 
but frustratingly the data sheets have no dimensions given.  I have 
ordered some 1A and 2A ones to try, and will report further.


I suspect that the originals would have been around 115C.  And for 
searching they seem to be called Thermal Cut Outs (TCO), not fuses.


Dan
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Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 extender cable kit

[Dave Daniel]

Several people on the TekScopes/Tekscopes2 forums went through this a 
while back. It turned out that ribbon cable appropriate for this 
application was either not available or too expensive.


John Griessen made a set of PWBs and sold kits consisting of a PWB pair, 
a connector pair and a set of pre-cut and pre-stripped wires. I believe 
he sold all the kits.


I built one of mine and it works well. I use it with a TM-501 as a 
stand-alone test setup for single-wide plug-ins.


DaveD

On 8/3/2014 11:54 PM, Mark Sims wrote:

I think a cable made from ribbon cable edge connectors would be the 
easiest/cheapest way to extend the GPIB connector.


Have you thought about making extensions for the smaller connector used to 
distribute GPIB in the 5000 series?  

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Re: [time-nuts] Synergy-GPS SSR-6tru Problem Resolved

[Dave Daniel]

I will say that I was very impressed by the email that Art sent; I do 
not see very many communications that are as honest as that any more. 
Most people who are not engineers do not understand the diligence that 
is required to ensure that one's daily mistakes in architecture, design 
and implementation of anything electronic gets thrown in the trash and 
not passed on to customers. I the cases where something DOES slip 
through, it is always incumbent on the vendor to rectify the problem. I 
have to do this in my work, and it is refreshing to see other examples 
of this attitude. I will *always* buy from vendors who exhibit this 
attitude, and never from vendosr who try and cover up an otherwise 
perfectly excusable engineering error.


On 7/25/2014 6:51 PM, Alexander Pummer wrote:



Synergy's owner Ulrich Rohde N1UL --DJ2LR/DL1R is a long time ham 
radio operator, and he will go pretty far to help for an other ham,

73
KJ6UHN ex DL...
Alex

On 7/25/2014 5:27 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:
And while this subject is still up, I want to let the group know that 
Synergy *really* went out of their way to help me with this.  I was a 
bit surprised at their level of commitment to some ham radio operator 
who had bought a single unit from them and probably didn't know what 
the heck he was talking about.  A real class act all around!


Bob - AE6RV




  From: Art Sepin a...@synergy-gps.com
To: Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net; Discussion of precise time and 
frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com; Dusty Morris 
doxielove...@cox.net

Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Synergy-GPS SSR-6tru Problem Resolved

Bob,

Once in a while a mea culpa is required and we're posting it here so 
everyone understands our commitment to the users of Synergy's products.


The Original Synergy Adaptor Board was designed to allow Motorola's 
newer 3 volt 12 channel M12+ to plug into an older 5 volt 8 channel 
UT+ slot. That product worked for hundreds of users over the years 
until (we found out through your personal aggravation and agony) the 
recent introduction of Synergy's SSR series of u-Blox based precision 
timing boards.


To make sure that the Synergy UT+ Adaptor Board issue is put to bed 
properly we asked for an external, formal technical review of this 
product that was introduced fourteen years ago.


The reviewing engineer's first comments were Ouch! This will not 
work.  And, no, the SSR boards do not work the same as the M12 
boards on the Synergy Adaptor Board. The M12+ and M12M receivers 
have separate serial ports for the two functions (Receiver command 
RxD and DGPS RxD input) so it does not matter what you do with the 
RTCM port, pin 5 on UT+ connector and pin 8 on the M12+/M12M 
connector, if not in use with an M12x receiver.


The SSR boards, however, had to combine the two serial data streams 
expected by the M12x navigation receivers into one because the u-Blox 
receiver modules only use one serial input port for both receiver 
commands and DGPS correction data. The Synergy Adaptor Boards use a 
simple gate combiner circuit that worked well when using the M12+ or 
M12M but left Synergy open to this problem when using an SSR. Both 
serial lines on the SSR board, pins 2 (Receiver RxD) and 8 (DGPS RxD) 
are pulled high on the SSR board so open pins are OK but they must 
not be grounded.


The solution is for Synergy to make a UT+ Adaptor Board part number 
available to users who only want to test the features of SSR timing 
receivers.


That new SSR only Adaptor Board part number, which we'll have 
available in a few days, will remove R3 (4.7K) and R4 (6.8K) from the 
adapter board and the compatibility issue will be resolved. In the 
interim, other users can pull pin 5 of the UT+ connector high (+5V) 
as you did.


We apologize for the confusion and frustration, Bob, and thank you 
for the valuable feedback!


Art Sepin
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