Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

[Jim Sanford]

When will it be available??

Jim

wb4...@amsat.org



On 8/18/2017 4:17 PM, Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde via time-nuts wrote:

Yes, and there is a lot of useful material in place including CMOS  and related 
new topics and update on numerical controlled oscillators . Thanks, Ulrich

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 18, 2017, at 2:58 PM, David Bengtson  wrote:

That's good news. It would be good to have a single reference for noise 
correlation.

Dave


On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 7:04 AM  wrote:
   Good Morning all ,
  
yes , it became non trivial but Enrico agreed to take over the old chapter 2. He thinks I do not use IEEE norm  abbreviation and the noise correlation part did not exist 20 years ago.And many new and important things  So I thing we are settled.
  
Thanks, Ulrich
  
In a message dated 8/14/2017 9:10:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, david.bengt...@gmail.com writes:

Ulrich - Did anyone ever agree to help update this?

Regards

Dave


On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 3:13 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts  
wrote:

Why don't you look at the outline to determine what might be  needed or
missing .

Ulrich




In a message dated 3/11/2016 11:09:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
att...@kinali.ch writes:

Hoi  Ulrich,

On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 19:52:58 -0500
KA2WEU--- via time-nuts   wrote:


I have published the following  book

" Microwave and Wireless Synthesizers: Theory and  Design, Ulrich L.

Rohde,

John Wiley & Sons, August 1997,  ISBN  0-471-52019-5."

[...]

As I am more or less now in  microwave technology and less in  PLL IC's,

I

hate to see this  standard textbook disappear Who can help or  want

to

take  over?

Da ich sowieso für mich was grösseres über  Zeit/Frequenzmessung
amzusammenstellen bin, und da PLL's grundsätzlich auch  dazu gehören,
wäre ich interessiert. Mein Problem dabei ist, dass ich von  der
praktischen Seite aber kaum eine Erfahrung habe und für mich  alleine
die Arbeit mit ziemlicher Sicherheit zuviel wäre. Aber es wäre  möglich,
dass ich zum Beispiel mit Magnus zusammen und vielleicht der Hilfe  von
ein paar anderen time-nuts und/oder Enrico etwas auf die Beine stellen
könnte.

Was wären denn die Dinge, welche für dich, in ein Update rein  müssten?

Gruess aus Saarbrücken

Attila Kinali

--
It is upon moral qualities that a  society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological  sophistication in the world is of no
use without that  foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil  Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] WTB: GPSDO

[Jim Sanford]

Glad you didn't fare any worse in the event.

Good luck and very 73,

Jim

wb4...@amsat.org



On 3/9/2017 3:45 AM, Jeff AC0C wrote:

We had a small tornado come through north of our house about 1/2 mile on 
Monday.  Really did a number on the antennas.  Only electronics impacted was my 
old Nortel GPSDO.  It’s pretty much deaf now, as far as I can tell.  The Nortel 
always had a hard enough time obtaining the initial lock in the past on 
startup, but since “the event” it’s been no joy.

So I’m in the market for a GPSDO.  Key application here is as a bench precision 
frequency reference.  Something with good composite noise performance close in.

If you have a suitable GPSDO in solid operational condition, kindly contact me 
off list.  Thanks!

73/jeff/ac0c
www.ac0c.com
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie

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Re: [time-nuts] Has anybody checked this? GPSDO in kit

[Jim Sanford]

Nice!

(I had one of those, 20 years ago . . . .)

73,

Jim

wb4...@amsat.org



On 10/23/2016 1:49 PM, William H. Fite wrote:

Bravo for boat anchors, Wes. I have a Collins R390 with a tuning gear train
so complex it has to go in every 3000 miles for an oil change.


On Sunday, October 23, 2016, Wes  wrote:


On 10/22/2016 9:22 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:


You have to remember what this thing replaces.   In ham radio, some people
are using vacuum tube oscillators with mechanical variable capacitor
tuning.  Maybe some advanced rigs use gear drive on the capacitor shaft to
allow more exact tuning  This Si chip is considerably better then 1940's
technology.


I guess my WW-II vintage BC342 receiver (that I started with and still
own) was "advanced".  It has an extensive gear train for tuning.

On the other hand my two Elecraft K3s are full of DDS and microprocessors
but no variable capacitors.

Flex radios, are direct sampling SDR and newer ones offer GPS
stabilization.
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Re: [time-nuts] Instrument BASIC

[Jim Sanford]

John:

I looked and found many implementations of TCL.
Which one is yours, and is there any documentation about using it to 
control instruments over HPIB?  Some of the links I looked at suggest it 
is a general purpose language.


BTW, I'm using an Ethernet to GPIB.  Love it!

Thanks & 73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


On 2/27/2016 5:01 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:

Magnus,

I used to be responsible for a couple of labs in the late 90's early 2000's
where we had several of these.

First - do you have this option installed:
Add Agilent Instrument BASIC 1C2  ?

We automated the VSA's using GPIB and TCL.  I jumped through some hoops to
make the TCL library
publicly available on SourceForge - and it is still there.  TCL is a basic
like language for easy instrument
control and worth looking at if you want this to be as easy as possible.

I noticed there are some nifty GPIB to USB adapters available now.

We ran 24/7 this way doing low noise analysis.

Best Regards,
John W.
AJ6BC


On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Magnus Danielson <
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:


Fellow time-nuts,

This is a little off the normal time-stuff, but I wonder if people just
happens to have some suitable input to give.

I have a couple of HP89410A/89441A and would like to see if it would be
nice to see what could be done using the instrument BASIC. How would I be
able to enable or install it?

Now, don't even bother to write comments about how you can do better using
software control from a PC with this and that tool, this is explicitly not
part of the question.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] RG 6 U couplings

[Jim Sanford]

I just /happened/ to be in Home Depot this morning, and observed that 
they have a complete kit -- connectors and tool for something like $30.


It was in the electrical tools area, if this is any help.

Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

//
On 12/6/2015 9:25 AM, Arnold Tibus wrote:

Hi Bob,

you are correct with the special compression tool.
I did it mention as a 'negative' point.
Yes, the right tool is obligatory, but the dealers
do have normally these in the list with the connectors,
I am using the correct tool of course.

I also 'misused' these connectors for my ZS6BKW-type antenna.
I connected just the shield of a hi Q SAT cable with PE outer
insulation as areal wire - fixation and contacting via these
connectors. No changes and no damages since 2 years
out in sunhine, rain, ice, snow and heavy storms mounted up on
the hill and 10 m above ground --> 100 % mechanical
and electrical test approved as well for such not nominal use!

Arnold, DK2WT
  







Am 06.12.2015 um 13:44 schrieb Bob Camp:

Hi

I agree 100% with the recommendation of compression connectors and of the
CX3 in particular. The only thing I would add is that they require a proper tool
to “compress” them. I have found that some of the tools are pretty brand 
specific.
You may need to match the tool to the connector.

Bob


On Dec 5, 2015, at 11:38 PM, Arnold Tibus  wrote:

Hi Bert and the group,

I can highly recommend the so called compression F-connectors.
There are a lot of brands out, but my personal favorite is the
Waterproof CX3 Quickmount
from Corning Cabelcon, because they have very good rf and mechanical data.
They are not only weatherproof and corrosion resistant (NiTin-alloy), but
they are really watertight (tested 8h at 30m) and accept a quite high
pull strength of up to typical 480N.
The RF shielding and impedance data are also very good.

For outside I use successful since years a black polyethylen insulated
cable
which is really weatherproof and UV resistant and triple shielded with
tinned copper
braid (I don't like aluminum braid because the low mech. performance).

Just for overview information (I have no relation to this company!):
http://www.cabelcon.dk/download/CX3Folder_May2012.pdf

One may find similar connectors made by other companies.

The only 'negative' point is the need of a compression tool.

So I think this would be a very good solution for repair and connection
in general of RG6 and similar types also for GPS use.

Kind regards

Arnold, DK2WT



Am 05.12.2015 um 21:28 schrieb Bert Kehren via time-nuts:

At my new home the GPS antenna location has turned in to a  challenge.  May
have to splice RG 6U. Has any one done measurements on  couplings and the
loss associated with them. Right now I am considering a  female, female
coupling. Is there a better alternative?
Thanks   Bert Kehren Palm City  Fl.
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[time-nuts] Nortel GPSDO

[Jim Sanford]

All:

Several years ago, I purchased (from the ePlace) one of these units that 
many of you commented favorably on.


While it worked and communicated properly with Lady Heather, I never got 
it to completely lock in -- some form of periodic noise on the 
oscillator voltage.  It has been gathering dust.  I'm sure it can be 
made to work (maybe with a better power supply) but I just don't have 
time to mess with it.


I ran across a couple of Meinberg units (and their 
antenna/downconverter) and they work fine, so I have no need for the 
Nortel unit, and would rather it not collect dust.


If anybody would want to make a go of this thing or use it for parts, 
please contact me off list.


Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


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Re: [time-nuts] UPS for my time rack

[Jim Sanford]

Where I live, there are two problems.  Frequent long outages. Solved 
with a natural gas standby generator, which has run several times in 
anger for extended periods since installed.  (Vulnerable supply, low 
priority for restoration.)


The bigger problem is transients.  On a good night, my computer UPS 
activates at least once an hour.  SOmetimes you can see the lights 
blink, some times not.


In the last 6 months, I have had problems with a UPS (recovered by 
extended shutdown), an Astron Power supply for amateur radio equipment, 
a spectrum analyzer, two signal generators, a network analyzer, and an 
oscilloscope.  All were power supply failures, not all repairable.  My 
lab is now protected from the power company by a SmartUPS 2200NET.


I expect the grid to get /less/ reliable.
-- In 2007, DOE published a grid study which said there did not 
exist sufficient generation capacity over load to maintain grid 
stability.  Insufficient additional generation was booked for 
construction, so they predicted widespread rotating blackouts by 2010.
-- The 2008 recession greatly suppressed aggregate load, which is 
probably why the rotating blackouts did not happen.  I read recently 
that demand has not yet recovered above the suppressed levels following 
the precipitous drop in 2008.  (Which generates interesting other 
questions . . . .)
-- I have lost track of the number of GigaWatts of generation which 
has been shut down.


If the load ever recovers . . ..

Good luck!

Jim
wb4...@amsast.org


On 10/11/2015 9:05 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Unless you live in an unusual location, long term power outages are going to be 
pretty
rare. At the house I’m now in, we had a high voltage feed that was on it’s last 
legs. We
had short outages on a “many times a week” basis if the wind was blowing at 
all. We had
rare outages in the > 5 minute range. The short / frequent blip stuff is what 
most light weight UPS’s
are designed to handle. Not everybody has this problem. I no longer have it, 
they
ripped out 10 miles of old feeder and the new one works fine.

Indeed there are locations that experience multi hour outages on a fairly 
regular basis.
The combination of bars closing late on Saturday and a long straight road with 
an abrupt
turn in it was particularly hard on a feed line I once had to cope with. In 
that case gas turbine
generators were the answer.

If you have a case where long outages are common, rotary machines are often the 
better
answer than batteries. In the case above, the power company was the one footing 
the bill
for the gear. Fair in this case since they were the ones that *could* have 
moved the line.

If a > 10 minute outage is a “less than once a year” sort of thing, and OCXO’s 
are your only concern,
let them shut down. The net impact to your lab will be relatively small. The 
cost to fix the problem will
be relatively large. Short blips often, are well worth fixing.

The hidden issue with running a UPS is the relatively short life of the 
batteries.
Sealed lead acid is low cost up front, but they simply do not last when charged 
the way
a typical UPS charges them. Before you go into “can’t be true” mode … plug a 
100W light
bulb  load into your UPS and see how long it runs. Battery still *shows* as 
good on the indicator.
Gizmo only runs for 1/4 the time it should … h …. It’s very common to go 
into these
projects with a  reasonable budget, and then find out that the budget to keep 
it going is
not quite so generous.

Bob




On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:57 AM, Kasper Pedersen  wrote:

On 10/11/2015 12:07 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:

Essentially the charging circuits are not designed to run as long as needed
to charge big batteries. Even on ones designed for external batteries,
there's a recommended limit on the size of them. So if you think you might
want to increase runtime by adding some batteries, buy one designed for
that service.

I have gone down that route, so I have some real data to share:

My (soon to be replaced) backup is an old back-ups CS 500, with a
rewired battery pack out of an RT3000 UPS. So instead of 7Ah, the UPS
has 40Ah. With plenty of fuses.

When charging the standard 7Ah battery, the UPS delivers about 0.7A
(from memory) for many hours, and sits at about 14C above ambient.

When charging the 40Ah, the current is the same, the temperature is the
same, just for longer, as it should be, since the thermal time constant
is much shorter than the time it takes to charge the 7Ah.

Where this has problems is during discharge:
I have about 55W load on it, which in turn is at least 5A on the
battery. After 2 hours a timer in the UPS shuts it off, regardless of
battery voltage.
Also, if you run the UPS at high load where the standard battery lasts
shorter than the thermal time constant, then there might well be trouble.



The replacement, a back-ups pro 1500 behaves differently.
It has support for external battery packs, and 

Re: [time-nuts] UPS for my time rack

[Jim Sanford]

Did the transient suppressors, too.

A few years ago in a severe winter storm, after we got the neighbor's 
house on generator, his furnace still wouldn't work -- furnace brain 
fried.  Took the repair guy 4 hours to make 20 minute trip . . . . my 
surge suppressors went in a week later.


One thing I left out of my earlier post:  ANYTHING I care about is on a UPS.

Good luck!

Jim


On 10/11/2015 12:24 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

If your problem is transients, from lousy power companies or from lighting on 
your power line, there are ways to address that.
High voltage at the service line into the building should be fixed at the point 
the line comes in. If you don’t, then you get into
all sorts of neat “transient went here, then there, then nuked the gizmo”. For 
things like time or frequency distribution this
is a very real thing. The power to one set of gear may / may not be on the same 
UPS as the power to another set of gear.

The best answer is a whole house protection device. These can range from < $100 at 
your big box store to > $1K. They can be
a wire it in on a spare breaker or a call out a pro sort of thing. A lot 
depends on just how bad your problem is. The net effect is that
your line is fully clamped to local ground at the panel. The phases are both 
clamped to a level that should not affect properly
designed gear that’s in good condition. There is always a tradeoff between how 
tight to clamp and how fast the gizmo wears out.
There is the usual  “get what you pay for” in terms of knowing the current 
degree of wear out of the device.

The alternative is to get your entire lab (and all the devices that feed it) 
onto a good isolation transformer. . Everything then ties to
a single “lab ground”. What ever bounce you get is now all on everything at 
once. Each time I’ve done this, keeping all the standard
lines, antenna feeds, ethernet cables, GPIB cables, cable TV feeds, and the 
rest of it correct has become impossible after a year or two.
There’s just to much going all over the place.

We are already more than just a bit  off topic for this list. There is another 
twist this can take, that heads over to talking to
your power company and the people who regulate it. I have seen that work (as in 
the nice new line that feeds this side of town).

Bob



On Oct 11, 2015, at 10:44 AM, Jim Sanford <wb4...@wb4gcs.org> wrote:

Where I live, there are two problems.  Frequent long outages. Solved with a 
natural gas standby generator, which has run several times in anger for 
extended periods since installed.  (Vulnerable supply, low priority for 
restoration.)

The bigger problem is transients.  On a good night, my computer UPS activates 
at least once an hour.  SOmetimes you can see the lights blink, some times not.

In the last 6 months, I have had problems with a UPS (recovered by extended 
shutdown), an Astron Power supply for amateur radio equipment, a spectrum 
analyzer, two signal generators, a network analyzer, and an oscilloscope.  All 
were power supply failures, not all repairable.  My lab is now protected from 
the power company by a SmartUPS 2200NET.

I expect the grid to get /less/ reliable.
-- In 2007, DOE published a grid study which said there did not exist 
sufficient generation capacity over load to maintain grid stability.  
Insufficient additional generation was booked for construction, so they 
predicted widespread rotating blackouts by 2010.
-- The 2008 recession greatly suppressed aggregate load, which is probably 
why the rotating blackouts did not happen.  I read recently that demand has not 
yet recovered above the suppressed levels following the precipitous drop in 
2008.  (Which generates interesting other questions . . . .)
-- I have lost track of the number of GigaWatts of generation which has 
been shut down.

If the load ever recovers . . ..

Good luck!

Jim
wb4...@amsast.org


On 10/11/2015 9:05 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Unless you live in an unusual location, long term power outages are going to be 
pretty
rare. At the house I’m now in, we had a high voltage feed that was on it’s last 
legs. We
had short outages on a “many times a week” basis if the wind was blowing at 
all. We had
rare outages in the > 5 minute range. The short / frequent blip stuff is what 
most light weight UPS’s
are designed to handle. Not everybody has this problem. I no longer have it, 
they
ripped out 10 miles of old feeder and the new one works fine.

Indeed there are locations that experience multi hour outages on a fairly 
regular basis.
The combination of bars closing late on Saturday and a long straight road with 
an abrupt
turn in it was particularly hard on a feed line I once had to cope with. In 
that case gas turbine
generators were the answer.

If you have a case where long outages are common, rotary machines are often the 
better
answer than batteries. In the case above, the power company was the one footing 
the bill
for the gear. Fair in this case 

Re: [time-nuts] UPS for my time rack

[Jim Sanford]

I have 3 APC SmartUPS2200NET UPSs.  I have detected no interference to 
my HF ham station from these.  One antenna is several hundred feet away; 
another passes less than 10 feet away.  I have listened to these with an 
IC-R10, and not found much noise.


I get much more from noise radiated by ethernet cables, unless I have 
choked them (which is effective).


I bought a sun-power (I think) 1KW sine wave inverter for ham radio 
field day use, to run antenna rotors, etc.  While not a disaster, it 
will have to be in a shielded box and all cables in and out choked, to 
not interfere with HF communications.  Based on rough measurements, I 
don't think much of a problem at 1 GHz.


Good luck!
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


On 10/10/2015 2:32 PM, Esa Heikkinen wrote:

Chris Waldrup kirjoitti:


I have decided I'd like to get a UPS to put on the rack containing my
Thunderbolt, the laptop that runs Lady Heather, and frequency
counter. Has anyone had bad experience noise wise with the APC brand
units like are available on Amazon and at Staples? I'd like to get
one that doesn't generate lots of RFI. Thank you.


Get a line-interactive model which has inverter with classic iron 
transformer. Line-interactive means that the inverter is not 
continuously on when the mains voltage is OK, but the mais voltage is 
routed thru multitap transformer which gives some filtering and 
enables to fix under/overvoltage errors without turning on the 
inverter. When there's blackout and inverter is really started the 
transformer will act as a filter which reduces the HF interference 
caused by sine wave inverter.


You can recognize this kind of ups from treir weight. For example 2 
kVA model should weight more than 25 kg without batteries and more 
than 50 kg with batteries. You could look for example old APC 
SmartUPSes or APC Matrix UPS, which has separate inverter unit, 
transformer unit and battery units. Old SmartUPS'es may require float 
voltage modification because their charging voltage tends to increase 
when aging. Without fix it will kill the batteries too soon.


Worst case to buy is double conversion on-line model without any kind 
of transformer. These are cheap but the inverter is on all the time 
and it's output is not filtered. I have measured the output of these 
kind of UPSes with spectrum analyzer and they are really horrible 
interference sources. Not recommended if there's any kind of sensitive 
electronics.


Regards,




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Re: [time-nuts] LAN/USB to GP-IB/HP-IP Adapters

[Jim Sanford]

Just ordered Ethernet to GPIB from Prologix.biz for $199.  They also 
have a USB version, which a good friend has and recommends.  (Which is 
why I bought the ethernet device.)

Can you share info on labview home and your apps?
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


On 9/10/2015 5:58 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi:

It's taken a few months to get LabVIEW Home version working so now I'm 
looking for a good way to control HP-IB instruments.
I tried to get a computer built that would run DOS, WIN 3.1, WIN 98, 
WIN XP and WIN 7 (NI does not yet fully support WIN 10), but the 
required motherboard is not longer made so I'm looking for an adapter 
that runs from LAN or a USB port.


NI has the GPIB-USB-HS+ (their latest version) so the prior version 
GPIB-USB-HS is available for under $200.


Can anyone comment on what's available?

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
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[time-nuts] Looking for manual

[Jim Sanford]

All:

Just acquired Rhode  Schwarz GPS receiver (and 10 Mhz reference
oscillator) ED167MP. Looking for manual; struck out on RS site and
KO4BB.com

Anybody have one? Suggestions?

Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org mailto:wb4...@amsat.org


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[time-nuts] 100 MHz VCXOs

[Jim Sanford]

All:

Anybody have a DATA SHEET on the Wenzel VCXO's mentioned here and being 
sold on ebay?  I went to the Wenzel site and they say oscillators in 
that part number series are proprietary, you must contact them for 
additional information.


I bought one, it got here REALLY quick, and was hoping to file some 
reference data


Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


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Re: [time-nuts] Wenzel 100 MHz Oscillators (w/ EFC) available

[Jim Sanford]

Skip:
I would like one, if you have any left.
How do I pay?
Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 12/5/2014 1:00 PM, Skip Withrow wrote:

Hello time-nuts,

Please excuse the blatantly commercial announcement, I generally keep
business matters off the list, but I have some Wenzel oscillators that may
be of interest to time-nuts and wanted to give you first crack at them.

These are Wenzel 500-06769 units, custom number for Harris used in
microwave radios.  Output is 100MHz at +20dBm.  Supply input is +12 volts
DC (about 500mA at start).  EFC runs between 0.5V and 4.5V with positive
coefficient and is about 335Hz/V.

Unit is in standard 2 x 2 x .75 package.  Output connector is female SMA.

These would make great units for synthesizer and DDS projects.  I don't
have the ability to measure the phase noise, but should be relatively good
as they were used at microwave frequencies in their past life.

I'm asking $50 each for them and $7 (any quantity) Priority Mail shipping
to U.S. addresses only.  If you would like one (or more) please PayPal to
pay...@rdrelectronics.com.  I have attached a picture of one unit with the
pinout.

Regards,
Skip Withrow
RDR Electronics, Inc.
303-790-1830 8am-5pm M-F


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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite

[Jim Sanford]

SO, I just connected my third LTE-Lite unit.
By the time the software drivers were installed, and I selected U-center 
to the new COMM port, it had a fix.  Even with the survey LED still 
blinking.


I looked at the GoogleEarth view, and the fix is within six feet of 
where the antenna really is.  IMPRESSIVE.


BTW, the 10 MHz unit I ran for a couple of days showed a fix on 
GoogleEarth within less than a foot of the antenna location.

Most impressive.

Jim

On 11/28/2014 4:23 PM, Jim Sanford wrote:

All:

After running my 20 MHz LTE-Lite for a week or so, I shut it down and 
connected one of the 10 MHz units.


The LEDs appear to be responding (survey still in progress) as per the 
quick start guide.


Windows installed a new comm port and driver.  (COMM6, with FTDI 
driver)  The COMM5 port which was the 20 MHz unit is gone.


U-center has selected COMM6 and is autobaud at 38000, but is showing 
my nothing except blank screens and a red NO FIX.  Have I missed 
something?  Or will it not report anything until a lock is achieved??


Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite

[Jim Sanford]

Ignacio:
Gracias.

I only mentioned the GoogleEarth as an indicator . . .

Setenta y Tres,

Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 11/30/2014 4:11 PM, EB4APL wrote:

Hi,

Just a word of caution here:
Do not trust Google Earth data for any precision work. The mentioned 
six feet are probably due to the geographical data, not to the 
precission of  your GPS unit.  If you look for image seams you can 
verify the kind of errors involved.
Google Earth is not a professional data source, if you want to use it 
por precise work they offer the option to load your own maps and 
images for your use , but this is not a free service.  The free 
service and data is good for showing your favorite pub to your friends.


Regards.
Ignacio EB4APL

On 30/11/2014 a las 19:23, Jim Sanford wrote:

SO, I just connected my third LTE-Lite unit.
By the time the software drivers were installed, and I selected 
U-center to the new COMM port, it had a fix.  Even with the survey 
LED still blinking.


I looked at the GoogleEarth view, and the fix is within six feet of 
where the antenna really is.  IMPRESSIVE.


BTW, the 10 MHz unit I ran for a couple of days showed a fix on 
GoogleEarth within less than a foot of the antenna location.

Most impressive.

Jim

On 11/28/2014 4:23 PM, Jim Sanford wrote:

All:

After running my 20 MHz LTE-Lite for a week or so, I shut it down 
and connected one of the 10 MHz units.


The LEDs appear to be responding (survey still in progress) as per 
the quick start guide.


Windows installed a new comm port and driver.  (COMM6, with FTDI 
driver)  The COMM5 port which was the 20 MHz unit is gone.


U-center has selected COMM6 and is autobaud at 38000, but is showing 
my nothing except blank screens and a red NO FIX. Have I missed 
something?  Or will it not report anything until a lock is achieved??


Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org




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[time-nuts] LTE-Lite

[Jim Sanford]

All:

After running my 20 MHz LTE-Lite for a week or so, I shut it down and 
connected one of the 10 MHz units.


The LEDs appear to be responding (survey still in progress) as per the 
quick start guide.


Windows installed a new comm port and driver.  (COMM6, with FTDI 
driver)  The COMM5 port which was the 20 MHz unit is gone.


U-center has selected COMM6 and is autobaud at 38000, but is showing my 
nothing except blank screens and a red NO FIX.  Have I missed 
something?  Or will it not report anything until a lock is achieved??


Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite

[Jim Sanford]

All:
Sharing lessons learned the hard way . . .

After messing around with my Anti-Virus program, which declared some 
false threats, messing with drivers, and uninstalling/reinstalling 
Ublox, I put the 20 MHz unit back on line.  Instantly came up and showed 
data in UBLOX.


Shut it down, removed it, and reinstalled the 10 MHz unit which Winders7 
called COMM6.  Still nothing.  Then looked at the LTE-Lite closely -- 
NMEA was not selected.


Selected NMEA.  Nothing.

Selected COMM6.   Nothing.

Shifted to 38k4 baud -- instantly had data and a FIX!!!  Even though 
survey LED is still blinking.  Fix is pretty close to what I had from 
the unit that ran a week, PDOP is 1.5 and HDOP is 0.9.  Pretty impressive.


So, I must conclude that the problem was failure to check the board and 
make sure NMEA was selected.


Hoping to save somebody my pain.

73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


On 11/28/2014 4:23 PM, Jim Sanford wrote:

All:

After running my 20 MHz LTE-Lite for a week or so, I shut it down and 
connected one of the 10 MHz units.


The LEDs appear to be responding (survey still in progress) as per the 
quick start guide.


Windows installed a new comm port and driver.  (COMM6, with FTDI 
driver)  The COMM5 port which was the 20 MHz unit is gone.


U-center has selected COMM6 and is autobaud at 38000, but is showing 
my nothing except blank screens and a red NO FIX.  Have I missed 
something?  Or will it not report anything until a lock is achieved??


Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz Filters

[Jim Sanford]

Any suggestions as to which chips, or links to any documentation?
Thanks,
Jim

On 11/27/2014 11:36 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

3) it is really easy to build a temperature controller using a $2 8-pin uP
and a few lines of code.  The 8-pin uP will have a few analog inputs and
outputs and even pins left over for status LEDs.

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 8:08 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts 
time-nuts@febo.com wrote:


List,



I have seen on the net a 10 MHz filter using 10.7 IFtransformers but have
no idea how well they would work for isolation with thenew style Lucent
boxes.



Thoughts?



On Ebay venders are offering 10 MHz crystals for almostnothing if you buy
30.  My question wouldthese be good for making some type of simple ladder
filter?



In his article *Modifying Lucent RFG-M-RB Rubidium FrequencyStandard* the
author used a 10MHz filter that was taken from an old 10MbitEthernet LAN
board. The part number he used was 20F001N and I found them onEbay for low
prices.



Now I don’t have any access to any old ethernet LAN boardsso I’d have to
build from scratch.



Does anyone of these methods have an advantage over theothers on the new
style Lucent boxes or in the making of a small distributionamplifier with
good isolation?



Regards,



Perrier


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Re: [time-nuts] Minicircuits 10% discount in December

[Jim Sanford]

YES!
That's exactly why I go to Mini-Circuits.
Jim

On 11/27/2014 2:03 PM, Didier Juges wrote:

Another reason is reproducibility. If you or someone else wants to reproduce 
your design, using a well defined and available commercial part makes it much 
easier to achieve the same performance, particularly for RF components.

Didier KO4BB


On November 27, 2014 12:41:34 PM CST, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
rich...@karlquist.com wrote:


On 11/27/2014 7:07 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:

For a hobbyist doing things a few at a time, what advantage is there

to

buying RF transformers made by Mini-circuits etc., vs winding them

using

commonly available ferrite cores/binocular cores?

If I needed to do a production run of 1000+ boards with tiny SMT
transformers, sure, no problem buying them from mini-circuits or a
distributor etc. But for hobbyist stuff seems far more flexible to

wind

them onesy-twosy using not so tiny cores and windings selected for

the

particular application.

Tim N3QE

You need the tiny cores to get the performance of the MiniCircuits
transformers.  You just can't get the same bandwidth using macro sized
binocular cores.  Now, if you don't need a lot of bandwidth, then
what you are saying could make sense.  Another issue is stray
capacitance.  Considerably lower with a tiny core.

I have spent many hours characterizing MiniCircuits transformers
beyond the data sheet specs, and dissecting them to learn how they
do it.  They really do have a lot of rocket science in them.  In
terms of the engineering I am buying (especially in a one-off
application) they are ridiculously cheap.  And I say that as a fairly
knowledgeable transformer designer in my own right.

I do keep binocular cores around for higher power transformers, and
for emergencies when I need a transformer yesterday.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite Plans

[Jim Sanford]

Interesting comment. . . . I'm reading Bob's book now!
Never met him, but felt like I knew him from all of his writings.

His death was very sad

Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 11/26/2014 12:20 PM, Didier Juges wrote:

Said,

Your drawing looks better than those byBob Pease,  and he was never
embarrassed by his :)
Thank you for your extensive contributions to time nuts

Didier KO4BB


On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:28 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts 
time-nuts@febo.com wrote:


Guys,

I never expected such an intense discussion about using and buffering  the
outputs from the LTE-Lite board since the actual circuit to use can  be
quite simple.

To address these questions, I drew up a simple schematic that uses a DIP-14
  74AC04 gate, six resistors, and two caps. Everyone who can solder should
be able  to build this simple circuit as a dead-bug type build on a
copper-clad  board.

This circuit will buffer all three outputs (1PPS, TCXO RF, and Synthesixed
RF) of the LTE-Lite eval board with CMOS 3.0V levels that can drive 50 Ohms
  terminations. For simplicity I grab the 3.0V power from the DIP-14 TCXO on
pin  14 of that part on the eval board, even though I would strongly
suggest to use a  separate low noise 3.3V or 5V power supply to power the
74AC04
chip.

You can add 100nF caps in series to the two RF signals before they feed
into the coax output connectors for less power consumption and removing DC
for
  instruments that don't like DC inputs.

Using a single IC for the three signals will result in crosstalk between
the signals, but it should be clear from the schematics how one could break
up the signals by using three independent ICs to minimize crosstalk.

We use this circuit in a small box here using SMT components, and it works
really well.

Excuse my horrible writing, using keyboards has made my fingers  numb..

Hope that helps,
Said

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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite Plans

[Jim Sanford]

Didier:
Please DO share.  Thanks!
Jim

On 11/25/2014 7:47 PM, Didier Juges wrote:

Jim,

I have somewhere a piece of VB 6.0 code that decodes NMEA sentences and puts it 
pretty on the screen (at least that's how I remember it :). I am not at home at 
the moment but I'll be glad to send it to you if you are interested. May not do 
what you want, but it will get you started.

Didier KO4BB
www.ko4bb.com

On November 25, 2014 1:42:42 PM CST, Jim Miller j...@jtmiller.com wrote:

I have one of the LTE-Lite 20Mhz units and plan to use it as a
frequency
reference for my ham radio gear. My planned setup is as follows:

I'm putting it in the recommended Hammond enclosure powered by a USB
cable

from my PC. I had originally planned to use the wall wart provided but

I
want to get status from the unit without hacking a window in the top to
see
the LEDs so I plan to use TBD software to provide a status check. I
briefly
thought about doing something with an Arduino and display shields but
that
seemed like too much work for now.

I'm using a inverting D FF from TI (SN74aup1g80) as a divide by 2 to
provide 10Mhz. The chip and associated passives will be on a little
circuit
board mounted in the open area normally reserved for the external
oscillator. The output of the chip will be connected via a series
resistor
of about 400 ohms to a SMA connector. This resistor will limit the load
on
the FF and the LTE-Lite power source. Power will be taken from C6.

This output will only go a few inches to a DEMI 10Mhz 4 way splitter
The
input of the splitter will be equipped with an additional ERA-2+
amplifier
(50 ohm input) which will restore the signal levels lost due to the
series
resistor in the LTE-Lite addon. The DEMI splitter will also be equipped
with a manual power switch which will allow me to kill the output of
the
box if the GPSDO fails for some reason.

The little hockey puck antenna will be mounted directly outside the
shack
wall near a south facing wall which will limit the visibility to only
half
the horizon. I'm assuming this will be enough for my modest needs.

The four outputs will be used as follows:

One will go to the K3 ExtREF to provide an external reference.

Two will go to separate TX/RX converters for low frequency (600Khz)
use
and be used with the transverter I/O on the K3.

The last will be used as a general calibration reference.

When the power switch on the DEMI splitter is turned off the K3 will
revert
to using its internal TXCO.

I leave the PC running 24/7 and the power to the LTE-Lite would only be
interrupted when the PC is rebooted. I don't need a frequency reference
during the reboot time since I always operate my rig with the PC on and
running. The TBD status software will tell me when the LTE-Lite is
synched
up again. The PC is served by a UPS and the shack circuit is one which
is
served by our whole house generator.

I have the DEMI splitter built up and working. Now just waiting on
enclosure from Digikey. I should have everything running by mid
December.

I still need to figure out what to use for the status software. Ideally
I'd
like an applet to display appropriate status indications on my monitor
for
now I'll examine the uBlox and Putty and if not satisfactory perhaps
I'll
write something in VB.

Feedback and suggestions welcome.

73

Jim ab3cv
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Re: [time-nuts] Practical considerations making a lab standard with an LTE lite

[Jim Sanford]

Said:

Several times you've mentioned a low noise LDO regulator.  I've not seen 
a device specified -- can you share?


Also, yesterday, in response to my question about using an existing 
antenna, you basically said, Try it.  Well, I did -- working great for 
over 24 hours.  At this moment, I have good lock on 9 GPS birds and a 
3d/gps fix mode reported by U-center.  Interestingly, there are a few 
GPS birds that show up as blue, even though they have the same C/N ratio 
as some green birds.  One of them is at 89 degrees elevation -- no 
blockage like some to the west -- don't get that.


Anyway, wanted to share that my existing antenna seems to be working fine!

AND, my first 10 MHZ board arrived today . . . .

Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


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Re: [time-nuts] Practical considerations making a lab standard with an LTE lite

[Jim Sanford]

Said:

I'm seeing C/No numbers between 50.0 and 41.0 for the green birds.  
I'm seeing 27.0 to 42 on the blue birds.  Not quite sure what the 
difference between green and blue is.  UBlox is acting kind of funny -- 
it ignores any attempt to click on an icon or any of the menu bar 
items.  Yet it lets me move the various windows around and resize them.  
A challenge for another day.  (Winders7)


HDOP is 1.0, which wikipedia tells me is ideal.  PDOP is 1.9, still 
good, but far from ideal.  Reported position is very stable, converting 
altitude (meters) to feet gets me 1158 feet, about 120 feet lower than 
what the GPS in the car says my antenna should be at.  (1250' at the 
drive way, plus 20 feet of pole supporting the antenna.)


Jim

On 11/24/2014 8:27 PM, Said Jackson wrote:

Jim,

Bobs suggestion is good; look at for example the  LT3060 for something that 
needs less than 100mA.

Glad your antenna is working well. What C/No numbers is uBlox indicating?

Bye,
Said

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 24, 2014, at 16:28, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:


Hi

The Linear LT1764 is a pretty good part. It’s nice and rugged / tough to kill. 
Bypass the output with a few hundred uF of tantalum caps. Keep at least a volt 
between input and output.

Bob


On Nov 24, 2014, at 7:12 PM, Jim Sanford wb4...@wb4gcs.org wrote:

Said:

Several times you've mentioned a low noise LDO regulator.  I've not seen a 
device specified -- can you share?

Also, yesterday, in response to my question about using an existing antenna, you basically said, 
Try it.  Well, I did -- working great for over 24 hours.  At this moment, I have good 
lock on 9 GPS birds and a 3d/gps fix mode reported by U-center.  Interestingly, there 
are a few GPS birds that show up as blue, even though they have the same C/N ratio as some green 
birds.  One of them is at 89 degrees elevation -- no blockage like some to the west -- don't get 
that.

Anyway, wanted to share that my existing antenna seems to be working fine!

AND, my first 10 MHZ board arrived today . . . .

Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


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Re: [time-nuts] Practical considerations making a lab standard with an LTE lite

[Jim Sanford]

All:
I am enjoying this thread.  These are all very interesting ideas.

Hoping to power up my first unit later today

I'm putting my LTE-Lite in the recommended HAMMOND box.  That takes care 
of the box with air.  I was then considering proportional heating of the 
surface of the box, like I did long ago with some GUNNPLEXERS -- seemed 
to work pretty well.   Then this whole assembly goes inside two or four 
inches of the foam insulation.


Now, the question becomes, to what temperature to heat it?  With a 
crystal, I'd plot /f/ vs. /T/, and look for minimum slope.  How to do 
that with LTE-Lite -- plot /efc/ vs /T/ and look for either center of 
range or minimum slope??


Thoughts?

Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 11/23/2014 9:03 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
NIST did something similar for their WWWV site, where they used 
bottled water in its staple packaging to build a thermal mass. They 
measured how their atomic clocks and rig behaved before and after, and 
could see the difference. Very neat way of using off the (store)shelf 
components for a test.


Another aspect is to think about what kind of heating/coolling you 
have. If it can act more as a proportional system rather than 
bang-bang regulations, it won't produce as drastic swings for you.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/23/2014 02:32 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message 20141123153744.biokf...@smtp16.mail.yandex.net, Charles 
Steinmetz

writes:


First, mount the LTE in a cast aluminum box (not thin sheet metal,
something with some heft). [...]


Charles' design has some good points, but I don't agree with it.

What you are trying to do is to low-pass filter any thermal signals
before they reach the LTE or OCXO.

Charles' design works great from the outside, but doesn't do anything
with respect to the thermal energy expended by the encapsulated
device themselves, which will cause convection in the inner box.

(For LTE and OCXO it is probably less of a problem that changing
power-disipation will have a outsized effect on the central
temperature.)

Here is a much simpler and likely cheaper way to do it:

Put the LTE or OCXO in a small box of your choice.  Even a cardboard
box is fine.  A little thermal insulation in the box is OK, but not
too much, the heat must be able to get out.

Find a medium sized cardboard box, something like a cubic feet or so.

Place it where you want your house-standard, with some kind of
thermal insulation under it, two layers of old rug will do fine.

Lay a floor of bricks inside the box.

Build a wall of bricks along the outside of the box.

Place the smaller box in the hole in the middle, cut the
corner of a brick to run the cables without too much leakage.

Use a floortile as roof, possibly with a layer of bricks on top.

Close the outher cardboard box with tape to minimize convection.

Congratulations, you now have a cheap and incredibly efficient
thermal low-pas filter, which will allow thermal energy to move in
both directions -- eventually.

The outher cardboard box is not optional, unless you replace it
with some other mostly air-tight barrier.

The little bit of insulation the outher cardboard adds are not a
bad idea either, for instance it reduces the effect of sunlight
hits the box at certain times of the day/year.

But you can substitute any geological building material you have
at hand for the bricks, because the trick is that geological building
materials have just the right thermal properties we are looking
for:  Decent but not too good thermal conductivity with healthy
dose of thermal mass.

Cinderblocks comes with convenient interior holes premade.

Aerated concrete blocks are also a candidate material but
don't make it too thick since it insulates quite well, and
paint the surface to bind the dust.


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Re: [time-nuts] Practical considerations making a lab standard with an LTE lite

[Jim Sanford]

I've read about die-hard microwave hams burying their master oscillators 
for a long time . . . .


On 11/23/2014 11:46 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:

On 23 Nov 2014 14:45, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

If you have a basement in your house / building

I do not.


—and —
it’s dry and reasonably draft free (no garage doors opening up from time

to time)

My lab is a room which is part of the garage! Just about everything is
against me with this method,  BUT you do give me an idea...

You got me thinking about the possibility of actually mounting the TCXO
burried in the ground!   The temperature of that is not going to change
very rapidly.

FWIW, I know a guy that did work as an air conditioning engineer,, but now
works for a company selling geothermal heating.  He installs  ground source
heat pumps for the geothermal energy.  He says that they actually work
quite poorly in many cases. In a couple of years the temperature of the
ground falls as the heat is extracted faster than it replenishes.  So the
efficiency falls off. I don't think that the TCXO would heat the ground
faster than it dissipates away.

Of course there would be some practical issues burying the TCXO, but those
would not be insurmountable ones. I have no idea what depth might be
needed.

My wife thinks thinks I am a nutcase - that would only confirm it to her!

Dave, G8WRB
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Re: [time-nuts] Practical considerations making a lab standard with an LTE lite

[Jim Sanford]

Interesting comment about the geothermal.

I have to take continuing education courses in order to maintain my PE; 
one was in geothermal.


Intuitively, great for cooling, even (especially!) in Florida. 
Intuitively, not so hot for heating, especially in PA, and especially 
with the price of natural gas plummeting.


The guy who services our conventional AC and gas furnace was not very 
enthused, when I told him I was considering geothermal for the next 
cooling unit.  He got a little more enthused when he found out I already 
have more pipe in the ground than I'd need (ft per ton of cooling 
capacity) and a several thousand gallon in-ground tank. Still not 
excited about it.  I really appreciate your new data point.


Shortly, I'll post response to all replies to my original post on this 
topic.  For now, the bury it option might actually have use here.


Jim

On 11/23/2014 11:46 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:

On 23 Nov 2014 14:45, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

If you have a basement in your house / building

I do not.


—and —
it’s dry and reasonably draft free (no garage doors opening up from time

to time)

My lab is a room which is part of the garage! Just about everything is
against me with this method,  BUT you do give me an idea...

You got me thinking about the possibility of actually mounting the TCXO
burried in the ground!   The temperature of that is not going to change
very rapidly.

FWIW, I know a guy that did work as an air conditioning engineer,, but now
works for a company selling geothermal heating.  He installs  ground source
heat pumps for the geothermal energy.  He says that they actually work
quite poorly in many cases. In a couple of years the temperature of the
ground falls as the heat is extracted faster than it replenishes.  So the
efficiency falls off. I don't think that the TCXO would heat the ground
faster than it dissipates away.

Of course there would be some practical issues burying the TCXO, but those
would not be insurmountable ones. I have no idea what depth might be
needed.

My wife thinks thinks I am a nutcase - that would only confirm it to her!

Dave, G8WRB
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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-lite pigtails

[Jim Sanford]

My first unit came with straight connectors.  I can manage.

On 11/23/2014 1:50 PM, Paul wrote:

My unit didn't come with right-angle pigtails as shown in the doc (and
Tom's photos).  Did anyone else get straight connectors?
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Re: [time-nuts] Practical considerations making a lab standard with an LTE lite

[Jim Sanford]

All:

I appreciate all the responses to my post earlier today.  Very informative.

First:  DownEast Microwave sells a nice kit for distributing 10 MHz.  
Specs are on their website, but basically, one in, four out -- each 
individually buffered and filtered.


Second:  I will use the 20 MHz from the LTE-Lite to lock a 100Mhz TCXO 
which will be the LO for a high performance 2meter amateur software 
defined radio.  (OpenHPSDR.org for info on the SDR)  I may multiply it 
to help with some of the microwave LOs.  It will also use the 20 Mhz to 
lock a 1GHz TXCO to be multiplied for microwave LOs.


Third:  I will have three of the LTE-Light units.  The first will feed 
some LOs as described above, and the synthesized 10 MHz output will be 
my lab frequency standard.  The lab is in a cinder block room off the 
basement, with 2 of foam insulation under 2 inches of concrete which is 
the floor for a covered porch above.  I'd never thought of it, but the 
put it on the floor next to a brick wall idea fits here.  Actually, I 
can put it next to 2 buried brick walls, and will surround it with 
cinder block on the remaining sides.  Can probably cover it with a few 
12x12 paver stones.  NOW, this involves drilling a hole through cinder 
block and drywall between the office/ham shack and the lab.  Would 
rather not, but have to anyway.  I have been informed that the fan 
noise from the ham shack gigabit ethernet switch will become politically 
unacceptable in about 72 hours.  (Office/ham shack share a guest 
bedroom.)  I would like to get 1E-10 or 1E-11 accuracy out of this 
setup.  Thanks for this suggestion!


Fourth:  The second unit will be in a building at the base of my antenna 
tower, about 350 feet from the house.  This building is above ground, 
and will be allowed to swing from 45F to 80F over the course of the 
year.  Hence my interest in insulating and heating.  I might consider 
putting something in the ground here, the problem would be access for 
servicing  I would like to get 1E-10 or 1E-11 accuracy out of this 
unit.  Considered shipping 10 MHz in coax out from the house, would 
rather not, and would like some redundancy, anyway.


Fifth:  I get that the /efc/ vs. /temp/ relationship is very complex and 
accept that trying to characterize it is not worth the effort.  Thanks 
for this bit of information.


Sixth:  My third LTE-Lite will drive a 10MHz reference for a mobile 
(rover) microwave setup, providing the reference for a bunch of GHz 
LOs.  This station will see motion, and temperature variation. Ultra low 
power will not be a concern, so heaters are acceptable. I would be happy 
with 1E-9 accuracy out of this unit.  That translates into 10Hz 
frequency error at 10 GHz.  This kind of frequency accuracy has been 
demonstrated to provide 3+db improvement in the ability to detect weak 
signals -- very significant for microwave weak signal work.


Finally:
I have pondered all the suggestions about measuring output impedance, 
etc.  For now, I have decided to default to Said's expertise with the 
units and will use one of his suggested circuits as buffers.  Hopefully, 
these will be  on a board inside the HAMMOND box with the LTE-Lite.  
That buffer will drive one of the MMICs to provide additional power to 
drive a filter and then output to the distribution amplifier.  I will 
continue to look for a better idea from one of you smarter than me.


Thanks again for all the insight and ideas.  You guys type and I learn.

73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 11/23/2014 4:46 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:

I would like to make a unit with multiple 10 MHz 50 Ohm outputs to feed my
various bits of test equipment.  I am thinking about some practical
considerations.

1) It would be great if there was a circuit published which can give 50 Ohn
output impedance from a 12-15 power supply,  which

a) Doesn't load the TCXO
b) Doesn't degrade the phase noise.
c) Powered the LTE lite.

Ideally one for both 10  20 MHz crystals.

Better still if there was a PCB available.

2) How should I mount the components?

My preference would be a metal box with
* IEC mains socket
* antenna input socket
* 9-pin D for reading dats
* 15  BNC's outputs

With a power amplifier to provide the output for 15 sockets, some
ventilation possibly requiring a small amount of forced air cooling would
be needed. But given the TCXOs sensitivity to temperature changes, I don't
know whether it might be preferable to mount the LTE lite in its own box
without any power supplies in it - perhaps with some thermally insulting
material around the LTE lite so the crystal doesn't experience any fast
temperature changes. Then have the power hungry bits completely separately.

I don't have a particularly big lab, so wherever I mount the LTE lite, the
temperature is going to change with the air conditioning unit blows hot or
cold

There are fairly large temperature changes when I am not using the lab, as
I don't run the air conditioning unit 

Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

[Jim Sanford]

Has anyone yet come up with a buffer circuit for the 1MOhm outputs to 
drive 50 Ohms?

73,
Jim
wb4...@amsast.org

On 11/22/2014 7:01 AM, david wrote:

Said and List,

My 20Meg Lite arrived yesterday. It is a beautiful beast, and well made. It
was also well packaged, which was no bad thing because the box bore all the
signs of having been run over by the truck. A few times.
But it is working nicely (I think) and I'm looking forward to experimenting
with it.

The only down side was that the Mail made me collect it from my local
office, charged me an additional $50 at today's conversion rate to import
the board.

Regards

David GM8XBZ


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of S. Jackson
via time-nuts
Sent: 20 November 2014 20:33
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

Hello everyone,
  
after what must have been the longest thread in T-nuts history its  almost

all quiet today.

  snip

Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a week I am surprised there
are very few mails, questions, or comments about the 20MHz boards,  and we
have received almost no feedback on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.
  
Bye,

Said

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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

[Jim Sanford]

Said:
Just ordered a second 10 MHz board for my rover station
73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 11/20/2014 3:32 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:

Hello everyone,
  
after what must have been the longest thread in T-nuts history its  almost

all quiet today. I am going to take advantage of that and  announce some
good news:
  
Its a miracle: the 10MHz DIP-14 TCXOs for the LTE-Lite came in weeks  ahead

of schedule from the factory! And they work very well.
  
We will thus be shipping out the 10MHz LTE-Lite eval boards in the  next

couple of working days. There are still a number left for sale on Ebay
(search for LTE Lite GPSDO), so if you were hesitant to get one due to the  
long
lead-time, then now is your chance.
  
Also, after being in time nuts hands for almost a week I am surprised

there are very few mails, questions, or comments about the 20MHz boards,  and we
have received almost no feedback on Ebay :( I hope that is a good  sign.
  
Bye,

Said



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[time-nuts] LTE-Lite Antenna

[Jim Sanford]

All:

Received my LTE-Lite and ready to play, EXCEPT, I'm in the basement.

Does anyone know if the antenna which the ebay purveyor of the Nortel 
Thunderbolts supplies will work on the 3.3 volts coming out of the LTE 
Lite?   (I measured the Nortel, it puts 4.95 volts on the coax.)  That 
antenna has the advantage of being at altitude with a feedline run to 
the basement.


Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz LTE-Lite

[Jim Sanford]

what is the ublox application

Thanks,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 11/20/2014 6:17 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:

Paul,
  
if you set the serial switch on the LTE-Lite over to the NMEA side then the

  uBlox application will give you all sorts of bar graphs for signal
strengths,  position, time, etc as it decodes all the NMEA messages.
  
Alex,
  
the TSC5125A user manual contains a description of the theory in its

Appendix B. Its probably available on the Microsemi website as I don't think its
confidential.
  
Also, I think John's TimePod user manual probably has a description of it.

Otherwise I remember Sam Stein (who is behind the TSC units) had some PTTI
or  similar presentations discussing the technology, but I don't know where
those  could be downloaded.
  
Bye,

Said
  
  
In a message dated 11/20/2014 14:34:32 Pacific Standard Time,

a...@pcscons.com writes:



Hi Said,
do you have any information about how that  TimePod 5330A works any
principal  description?
73
KJ6UHN
Alex

On 11/20/2014 2:08 PM, S. Jackson  via time-nuts wrote:

Hello Mike,
   
attached  is a 10MHz DIP-14 TCXO Phase Noise plot from a random  LTE-Lite

  unit.
   
I had sent out a 20MHz typical phase noise  plot some weeks ago, and

comparing the two they are almost perfectly  6dB apart as would be

expected from

the 20log(n/m) relationship. There  are variations from unit to unit of
course,  but it does not seem  like one version of the board or the other

has

advantages  in  terms of phase noise.
   
I had also sent out a  superimposed plot of the 20MHz and the divide-by-2

10MHz output of the  same board at that time, and again the relationship

was

almost  perfectly 6dB lower at 10MHz versus 20MHz.
   
While  phase noise follows theory, it does seem that the DIP14 metal

shield

  has a beneficial effect on the ADEV stability though. The plots we are
  getting  are pretty darn good, and I want to test more boards before I

post any

ADEV,  because its quite a bit better than our  specification and I want

to

make sure  its  real.
   
The 10MHz DIP-14 boards do not have an  isolating buffer like the 20MHz

boards do, on these the TCXO drives  the output directly, so one must be

careful

   to set the  equipment to 1M Ohms input impedance or use a buffer
externally,   which is what we did to measure the attached PN plot.

Bye,

Said




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Re: [time-nuts] Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle

[Jim Sanford]

I'm a member, and the article is not there -- just the Excel spreadsheet 
and a Word document of the parts list.

Too bad, I have a handful of 5 MHzx TCXOs.
I may have hardcopy of the issue, will have to dig for it.

Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 11/12/2014 3:34 PM, Dave M wrote:
I am able to download the files associated with the article, but not 
the article itself.  Guess I need to be a paying member to get the 
article.  The only files in the download are the XLS file for 
calculating the filter values, and the parts list.


It's at http://www.arrl.org/qexfiles in the year 2011 listings, 
filename 3x11_Roos.zip
titled Converting a Vintage 5 MHz Frequency Standard to 10 MHz with a 
Low Spurious Frequency Doubler


Dave M

John C. Roos via time-nuts wrote:

Several list members contacted me expressing interest in the
article. None of them were able to download much or anything
from the ARRL QEX web site. That includes me and other ARRL members.
I am working the issue with one call to ARRL so far today. I will
contact Larry Wolfgang at ARRL and see what Ican bust loose. So
hang in there. It is a cute technique, not originated by me, but
useful. Right now I have to get the ARRL FMT done first.
-73 john c roos k6iql



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Re: [time-nuts] Prototype boards. Was: Re: Divide by five

[Jim Sanford]

Please share results.
I have a toaster oven and a nice PLC with thermocouple, just haven't set 
it up yet

Jim

On 11/7/2014 10:51 PM, Neil Schroeder wrote:

Sparkfun in the United States also sells off large bags of their discards
for this very purpose - generally sorted by the type of work you wish to
practice.  http://www.sparkfun.com/.

This is where I went wrong.  I got a lot of great stuff and jumped right in
on it.  Fortunately we're not talking an AD9458 here but I did torch some
things that were inconvenient.

On a similar tack, I did just order a couple of reflow controllers for your
average toaster oven to test.  Will share the results here if desired.

NS

On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com
wrote:


On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 6:39 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:


Hi

Tools are one thing that makes it happen. Practice is another thing that
we often forget about being in the mix. Start slow and simple.


The best and certainly lowest cost practice can be on old, dead consumer
electronics.  Got a dead pc mother board?  Practice removing a ew parts and
re-soldering them.  They are easy to remove using a heat gun, the hot air
will melt the solder and then you have hundreds of zero cost practice
parts.

--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] float chargers for oscillator backup power

[Jim Sanford]

Where did you get it?

On 10/26/2014 1:59 PM, Tom Miller wrote:

Hi Jim,

I think these chargers are only meant for float charging the battery. 
They are not meant to supply a load (GPSDO) current.
It is more for connecting to your motorcycle or tractor battery and 
keeping it fully charged over winter storage conditions.


I just picked up a MeanWell 24 volt switcher rated at 24 volts @ 6.5 
amps and has a fine adjustment that will go to 28 volts. Also, it has 
remote sense connections. It was $25 including shipping.


Regards,
Tom


- Original Message - From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 11:29 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] float chargers for oscillator backup power


There are a variety of inexpensive wall-wart packaged float chargers 
for lead acid batteries around. Might be easier to just get something 
off the shelf.


http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/chargers/AC-Series_12_Aug_15.pdf 




http://www.mouser.com/search/refine.aspx?Ntk=P_MarComNtt=172260151

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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite module

[Jim Sanford]

I look forward to the app note.  Might be the incentive to get me to 
actually USE the Express PCB software I have.

Jim

On 10/17/2014 4:40 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:

Hi there,
  
I don't know how much the Wenzel units are, but if someone is not able  to,

or willing to build one on their own then this could be a  viable
alternative.
  
I will look into writing a short appnote describing how a low-noise

div-by-2 can be built at home with minimal components using a surface mount '74
chip and a couple of passives.
  
Lastly the 20MHz LTE-Lite boards do generate a 10MHz output of course, and

if you feed that into a standard counter (5370B, 53132A etc etc) I  think
the noise floor of the counter would be higher than the  noise floor of the
synthesized 10MHz output, so you would not see any difference  between using
the noisier synthesized output and the low-noise 10MHz TCXO  divided output..
  
Bye,

Said
  
  
In a message dated 10/17/2014 13:19:08 Pacific Daylight Time,

gign...@gmail.com writes:

How much would we guess that Wenzel blue-top would run you?


Relative to the low cost GPSDO,  my understanding is the Wenzel  parts are
priced appropriately to their quality.






On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:32 AM, S. Jackson via  time-nuts
_time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com)  wrote:


Hello  Jim,
let me answer through Time Nuts as this may interest  other  parties as
well.
Yes, using a fast flip flop to generate 10MHz out  of  the 20MHz TCXO 3.0V
CMOS output from the LTE-Lite module will  preserve the phase  noise
(actually
improve it by up to 6dB due to  the 20log(n/m) noise improvement)  and will
not add any spurs if you  use the clean 3.0V output from the LTE-Lite
module
or an external  clean power supply (please note the LTE-Lite TCXO RF  output
is 3.0V  due to the internal 3.3V to 3.0V Low Noise regulator feeding the
TCXO and  buffer).
Use fast logic such as 74AC74, 74FCT74, or the like.  We do  exactly that on
our ULN-2550 boards to generate 50MHz and 25MHz out of  the  100MHz, and
using a fast CMOS divider will result in additive  phase noise  that will be
below the crystal oscillator phase noise  floor.
That will result in significantly better phase noise and   much lower spurs
than using the synthesized 10MHz output from the board,  and one  74' chip
can generate both 10MHz and 5MHz out of the 20MHz  LTE-Lite output. This  is
exactly what we would do here if we needed  a clean 10MHz from the 20MHz
LTE-Lite board.
I believe you can order  low-noise divide-by-2  blue-top boxes from Wenzel
already  packaged-up and connectorized as  well.
Hope that  helps,
Said
Hi Said
I was one of those looking for 10Mhz but I just  thought  again now that it
might be just as well to divide the  standard 20Mhz output by 2  using a FF.
I think that would preserve  all the desirable characteristics of the  20Mhz
signal which I  understand to just be square wave at CMOS 3.3v levels
anyway. Is that  correct?
Thanks
Jim
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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite module

[Jim Sanford]

Said:
Your email app note was VERY clear, thanks.

You also mentioned somewhere that the synthesizer output of 10 MHz is 
cleaner than most freq counters, etc., need, so I will probably just use 
that for the test equipment.  I will use the 20 MHz as reference for 
microwave LOs, and will do the divide by two board so I have a good 10 
MHz reference as well.


I've already ordered, holding my breath for arrival!

Thanks,
Jim

On 10/18/2014 2:19 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:

Hi guys,
  
Jim, I ended up doing the appnote in email format, and sending out a

description, schematics, PN plot, and photos yesterday, please check your
emails. I won't do a formal appnote, sorry no time.. I hope the description of
what I wired-up yesterday is good enough for folks to try the same.
  




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Re: [time-nuts] Lightning arrestors for GPSDO antenna

[Jim Sanford]

All:
Some very good information here.

I use NFPA codes in my day job.

JUST YESTERDAY, I learned that you can read their standards for free.  
Go to their site, and you'll see a link for free access to any of their 
standards.  You can't save or print, but you can read. You will have to 
create an account, but they don't demand anything that isn't already public.


73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 10/17/2014 12:11 PM, Jim Lux wrote:

On 10/17/14, 8:17 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

You can use metal conduit as the bonding conductor between grounding
systems, for one thing.



That works fine, but I think it is disallowed  by the electrical 
code.   If

you used metallic conduit it MUST be grounded but you can't use it for
grounding.  That said, it does work.   I think the danger the 
electric code

addresses is that connections between conduit sections become loose over
time and might corrode.


The metallic raceway (code speak for conduit) is allowed to be the 
bonding conductor  (bonding conductor = greenwire or electrical 
safety ground in code speak).  Properly installed conduit will have a 
good connection, etc..




When interconnecting multiple grounding electrodes or electrode 
systems is where the requirements for particular gauges of wire come 
in, and mostly it has to do with mechanical strength and reliability.  
You can use a smaller conductor if it is protected inside something, 
for instance. The other rule is that the bonding conductor has to be 
continuous (the concern you mentioned about connections becoming 
loose, etc).


http://lightning.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Bonding-2013-ULPA-LPI-rev1.pdf 


is a very nice summary

Mike Holt (http://www.mikeholt.com/) has a great website on all code 
related issues, and he's written a bunch of articles that explain the 
code and the rationale behind the requirements.

http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/grounding-and-bonding-part-1-3



And when it comes to antennas and the like, you're in a different 
section of the code 810, 820, and the requirements for the grounding 
conductor (and whether coax shield can be that grounding conductor) 
are all laid out there.


In many case, the coax shield can serve as the grounding conductor, 
but only if there are no connectors in the path (i.e. you have to have 
a clamp that directly contacts the shield where it interconnects with 
the building grounding system).  A barrel feedthrough in a grounded 
metal panel doesn't meet the strict requirements of the code (although 
personally, I think it's a fine solution)


One thing to remember about the NEC requirements is that the threat 
they are protecting against with the grounding and bonding 
requirements is NOT a lightning strike.  It's contact with an 
energized conductor (e.g. a power line touches your antenna or 
supporting structure). That's a whole lot more common (wind storms, 
etc.)  NFPA 780 is the lightning protection code, and has a lot more 
lightning protection aspects.


The NEC cares almost nothing about transient protection, the concern 
is more about electrical shocks and burning the building down. 
Furthermore, the NEC really only regulates the wiring in your 
building, and nothing that is connected to it, nor does it regulate 
the wiring of the power company.


There are two tomes of reference I use for transient protection: one 
is IEEE 1100 (the Emerald Book) which has gone under many names over 
the years (politics.. computer manufacturers did not want their 
equipment described as sensitive electronic equipment)

http://standards.ieee.org/findstds/standard/1100-2005.html

The other is Protection of Electronic Circuits from Overvoltages by 
R.B. Standler.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?index=bookslinkCode=qskeywords=9780486425528 


http://store.doverpublications.com/0486425525.html

And, if you're at the Dover Pubs store.. take a look at the books 
about lightning from Martin Uman.  Very readable, lots of technical info.






I think the threaded conduit would work fine.  That stuff is like water
pipe but smoother inside.



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Re: [time-nuts] Price of LTE Lite GPSDO vs Trimble Thunderbolt.

[Jim Sanford]

And, somehow I expect that my LTE-LITE will actually work, which my 
thunderbolt never did.  (Very noisy)  It continues to collect dust

On 10/17/2014 3:49 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote:

First three cheers to LTE for making these available.

It reminds me when Motorola made a developers kit for the then
new 68HC11 MCU available for $68.11.

I know of one design win they got that more then made of their marketing
costs.

Another that hit me is with inflation the LTE Lite is not much more then
what many of us paid for our Thunderbolts.

For those new to the list ...

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2008-May/031100.html

http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tapr-tbolt/

In 2008, $124, the LTE Lite in 2014 $195.

With 'real' inflation (not the 11% you get online) the $71 difference is
not much more.

My two backup Thunderbolts cost me $145 each, just before they hit $200
then became history.

Again thanks to Said and JLT 

-pete
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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite module

[Jim Sanford]

I have emailed Wenzel about pricing and whether or not they will sell 
small quantities.  Will advise.


Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 10/17/2014 2:32 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:
  
Hello Jim,

let me answer through Time Nuts as this may interest  other parties as
well.
Yes, using a fast flip flop to generate 10MHz out of  the 20MHz TCXO 3.0V
CMOS output from the LTE-Lite module will preserve the phase  noise (actually
improve it by up to 6dB due to the 20log(n/m) noise improvement)  and will
not add any spurs if you use the clean 3.0V output from the LTE-Lite  module
or an external clean power supply (please note the LTE-Lite TCXO RF  output
is 3.0V due to the internal 3.3V to 3.0V Low Noise regulator feeding the
TCXO and buffer).
Use fast logic such as 74AC74, 74FCT74, or the like.  We do exactly that on
our ULN-2550 boards to generate 50MHz and 25MHz out of the  100MHz, and
using a fast CMOS divider will result in additive phase noise  that will be
below the crystal oscillator phase noise floor.
That will result in significantly better phase noise and  much lower spurs
than using the synthesized 10MHz output from the board, and one  74' chip
can generate both 10MHz and 5MHz out of the 20MHz LTE-Lite output. This  is
exactly what we would do here if we needed a clean 10MHz from the 20MHz
LTE-Lite board.
I believe you can order low-noise divide-by-2  blue-top boxes from Wenzel
already packaged-up and connectorized as  well.
Hope that helps,
Said
Hi Said
I was one of those looking for 10Mhz but I just thought  again now that it
might be just as well to divide the standard 20Mhz output by 2  using a FF.
I think that would preserve all the desirable characteristics of the  20Mhz
signal which I understand to just be square wave at CMOS 3.3v levels
anyway. Is that correct?
Thanks
Jim
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Re: [time-nuts] Any simple way to get 200 MHz from 10 MHz?

[Jim Sanford]

Dave:
Check out w1ghz.org.

Paul has some designs (and boards) that can lock different oscillators 
to a reference.  He uses a long time constant to manage phase noise.


His objective is good enough performance to generate GPS stabilized LOs 
suitable for weak signal narrow-band amateur radio communications.  I 
would suspect that such would be more than sufficient for what you are 
trying to do.


For that matter, in your application, multiplication of a really good 
oscillator could probably be good enough, although pay attention to the 
filtering to keep out harmonics you don't want. Given this, Paul's setup 
may be simpler to execute.


Good luck, and please share what you decide.

Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 9/28/2014 6:24 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:

I am looking for a quick  simple way to create a frequency of 200 MHz from
10 MHz.  Actually 100, 200, 300 or 400 MHz would all work,  but 200 MHz
would be my preference.

The input will be around 0 to +10 dBm and the output needs to be about +13
dBm.

I did think of a x5  x4 frequency multipliers and amplifiers from
Minicircuits, but I don't know if the increase in phase noise might be a
problem.  The truth is I don't know how good it needs to be!

I am trying to find a way of building something that will allow my HP 8720D
VNA (50 MHz-20 GHz) to work below 50 MHz. My idea was to generate a 200 MHz
local oscillator to feed a mixer.
I was thinking of making it so as the VNA sweeps from 200.01-250 MHz, it
possible to analyse a DUT over the frequency range 0.01-50 MHz.

Having the  an integer multiple of 100 MHz is good, as it makes reading the
VNA easier. It is simpler to use if the VNA display shows the frequency 200
MHz off than if its 212.5564 MHz wrong.

I would rather not have to program anything to do it,  but maybe a VCO and
PLL is the only sensible approach.

I can't seem to find an off the shelf solution which I can lock to a 10 MHz
reference.  There are plenty of 200 MHz oscillators around based on a TCXO,
but I can't lock them to the 10 MHz oscillator the VNA uses.  Maybe someone
knows of a device I don't know of.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] Pti OCXO...

[Jim Sanford]

What channel was the transmitter on?  I already have 2m and 220 capable, 
looking for 6m or UHF.

Thanks  73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 7/8/2014 1:26 PM, Dan Kemppainen wrote:

Hi All,

Was looking through my basement the other evening, and ran across an
OCXO I have laying on the bench. I was wondering if any of you may have
information regarding this unit, or have used it in the past.

It's an Pti XO5009. It cam from a Harris TV transmitter exciter. I
believe it was the main frequency reference in the whole cabinet, as
there were no other oscillators. Just wondering if it's worth hanging on
to for a time project, or if it's an old out dated clunker...'

Also, I have a bunch of the 1KW solid state amp modules from said
transmitter, if any one needs them! :)

Thanks,
Dan
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Re: [time-nuts] Note on early VNA's

[Jim Sanford]

Jeff:
Was really great to see you yesterday at BreezeShooters!  Hope to see 
you again soon, maybe better yet, chat on the air!

73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 6/2/2014 6:11 PM, k...@aol.com wrote:

To the learned audience:
  
I agree that the 8410 is an excellent place to start to learn  about VNA

architecture and issues. I, as well, learned the HP 8410, first  as manual
system, then we did the automation ourselves (Westinghouse was too  cheap to
buy a bundled system) using a 9825 desktop calculator, from the HP  app note
of Semi-automated Network Analysis. My education in this regard was
superb!  My industrious Vietnamese grad student is learning the issues from  my
8410 books and he is building a more modern version.
However, a slight clarification about the early VNA's: They were not YIG
based, that came later. The classic HP8542A system was a BWO based system
with  the 8690 Sweeper and a bunch of plug-in drawers that worked with a Signal
  Multiplexer to yield a 1-18 GHz system. A 5100 based synthesizer was used
to  lock the harmonic converter to eliminate harmonic skip cal errors
(Brooke  alluded to this) and the whole mess was driven by an HP 1000
mini-computer and  had a reel to reel tape drive for mass storage! It was huge 
( a
three bay rack)  and cost $250K in 1968 money (a lot today, $1.5 M ??).  I had
one of these  systems and still have parts of it! I automated my own newer
8410 system in 1986  when I started my consulting company and used the 12
term error model software  pak (HP11863??) in RM Basic on a 9826 computer (big
step up!). While I do not  recommend this approach for anyone today, the old
literature provides great  insight into the issues, where the errors come
from and so on, as HP had figured  all this stuff out. It is a shame that
shipping to Europe is so high, as a lot  of these systems and components are
still around (I have six 8410 systems  still !). A mainframe is under $50.00
and I bought a working 8411A converter for  $20.00 at Dayton this year (dont
ask why, I guess it was too cheap).
   I had just about every variant of this stuff, VLF through 40 GHz.  Man,
HP engineering was tops in those days!
Still, I think a very dedicated homebrewer could build his own design for a
   3GHz VNA from adapted wireless parts, but I am too lazy for that. I
much  prefer hacking some proven hardware into what I need.
  
73

Jeff Kruth
  
  
In a message dated 6/2/2014 5:47:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

time-nuts-requ...@febo.com writes:

Message:  7
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 14:36:09 -0700
From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist  rich...@karlquist.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency  measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re:  [time-nuts] VNA design
Message-ID:  538cee49.6000...@karlquist.com
Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 6/2/2014 12:41 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

Hi:

I started with the HP 8410 and added an  external computer.
Since it can be used manually I think it's an  excellent way to learn
about VNAs.
  http://www.prc68.com/I/MWTE.shtml#NA


For my last 8 years at  Agilent before retiring in March, I
was doing advanced RD on network  analyzers.  The newer
guys coming up didn't have an intuitive  understanding of
network analyzer architectures like I did. I
started  using the 8410 back in 1973 before I even worked
for HP.  Because of  the modular design, it was like a
teaching tool that forced you to  understand what was
going on.  When I mentored the young guys, I  would
explain to them a lot of principles based on the 8410.
Modern  network analyzers are too automatic.
The 8410 puts modern VNA's into  perspective.  BTW, I used
to sit next to Dick Lee, who was a member of  the 8410
design team in 1963 at the dawn of the golden age of
microwave  instruments based on YIG tuned oscillators
and step recovery diode  samplers.

As you noted, the architecture was built around the YIG tuned  oscillator
and certain things were done that way they were because of  that.

Rick Karlquist  N6RK



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Re: [time-nuts] HP Z3805A with 100+ns PPS Jumps

[Jim Sanford]

I will be eager to see responses to this.  It is similar to the behavior 
I was seeing on my tested nortel unit that I purchased from the 
e-place.  Tried a bunch of things, new antenna, higher antenna (even 
though my Z3801 worked fine on the old, before the Z3801 died) and 
different power supplies.


Finally gave up  shut it off.  Another time.

Hoping to see some ideas . . . . .

73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org
On 3/23/2014 3:45 PM, John Stuart wrote:

I just bought my second HP Z3805 (this one has a 12 ch. receiver) and have
been monitoring it with Ulrich Bangert's Z38XX software tool.
Last week, and again today, the PPS output has had several sudden excursions
of +- 100 ns or more.  It appears that each jump is followed by a  jump in
the opposite direction a few hours later.
  
I have inserted the following Z38XX graphs below:

1. Several PPS jumps from last night and early this morning.
2. Similar jumps from last week.
3. Oscilloscope measurement confirming PPS offset. Yellow trace =
ThunderBolt PPS,  Blue = HP Z3805A PPS
  
Might I have a faulty HP Z3805A, or an erratic 10811-60165 DOCXO waking up

from a long nap in China?
  
John Stuart, KM6QX

Lafayette, CA
  

  
  

  
  
  




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Re: [time-nuts] Mains frequency

[Jim Sanford]

Hal:

Here's a url for the task-force report: 
http://energy.gov/oe/downloads/us-canada-power-system-outage-task-force-final-report-implementation-task-force


I live near Pittsburgh, PA.  I think there is ZERO interconnection 
between PJM (grid operator we're on) and yours (forgot the name). 
INcidentally, if you read the report, you'll see some incompetence, bad 
decisions, and bad management in the 2003 blackout.  Only reason we 
didn't go dark here is because PJM saw what was happening in Cleveland 
and cut them off.  (Reminding me of one night on a certain ship in the 
late 70's, when one plant was getting unstable and the other plant cut 
them off -- half of ship went dark/lost propulsion, but not the whole ship!)


I do not remember when my clocks started acting up; it WAS after the 
announcement of the relaxation (or requested relaxation).


I have read about the NY blackout you describe in IEEE pubs (I'm a 
member of the power energy society) but don't remember much detail.


All the best,
Jim
wb4...@amat.org

On 3/13/2014 2:17 AM, Hal Murray wrote:

[Context is maybe(?) withdrawing the proposal to stop keeping time on the US
power line.]

wb4...@wb4gcs.org said:

Since then, large amounts of generation (primarily coal) has been shut
down, so I was not at all surprised by the request.
I missed the announcement that the request was withdrawn, and actually
thought it had been approved and enacted -- all my line-frequency based
clocks are now erratic and not very accurate.

I could easily be wrong on the withdrawing part.  I haven't seen any recent
comments either way.

Where are you located?  Did you notice when your clocks started acting
erratic?  Do you have any solid data?

I have 2 old, synchronous, line clocks (stove and clock-radio).  They seem to
be working normally, but I don't pay a lot of attention to how accurate they
are.

I'm in Silicon Valley.  I do monitor the line with a typical time-nut setup.
That's using the Linux PPS stuff to count cycles.  Here is an updated graph
covering the last 12 weeks.
   http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/60Hz/Dec-2013.png
The 0 on the left is arbitrary.  Peak-to-peak is 15 seconds.  So if I set my
mechanical clock correctly, even at the worst time, it would still be within
15 seconds of correct.

That's from counting cycles and dividing by 60.  A single cycle is a big
event.  Off by one is easy to spot if you look at the right graph.  Here is a
sample of a glitch:
   http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/60Hz/60Hz-2014-Feb-20-pick.png
I've only seen one event where a cycle was picked, none for dropped.  I might
have missed something interesting.  Look at the longer graph above.  It's
pretty clear I haven't missed a huge pattern either way.

I saw one comment (don't remember where) that the problem was that the power
companies had to file a lot of paperwork whenever the line frequency dipped
below X.  (I don't remember the numbers.)  If they were running slow, (say
targeting 59.98) to catch up for running too fast, and an event that dropped
the frequency happened, it was much more likely to trigger the paperwork.

(Seems like they should fix the paperwork-filing rules to allow for that case, 
but maybe it's more complicated than I can see.)

-



   This is what initiated the 2003
blackout in parts of the US  Canada.  A utility had a paucity of  reactive
generation on a day with large reactive load, and one of its  generators
tripped on over-excitation to prevent damage to the generator  and voltage
regulator.  This initiated the cascading events that left  many in the dark.
  (The Joint US/Canada task force on that event is a  /fascinating/ read!)

Do you have a URL?

In the late 70's there was a big blackout in NYC.  I remember reading the IEEE article on 
it.  I don't remember any frequency graphs.  Did they archive that sort of data back 
then?  The deal was that an important line bringing power in to NYC was knocked out by 
lightning.  Power lines have several load capacities, depending on time.  Thus they can 
carry X forever, X+x for a half hour, and X+xx for 5 minutes.  A line from Long Island 
was carrying it's 5 minute rating for way more than 5 minutes.  Somebody in the control 
room had their thumb on the shut up button.  They knew that line was a 
critical resource, but they couldn't shift any load.  Eventually, it sagged enough to hit 
a tree.  Then that line when out and so did all of NYC.  (That's my memory from 35 years 
ago.)

Blackouts:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_1965
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_blackout_of_1977
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages

From 1965:
the same song recordings played at normal speed reveal that approximately six 
minutes before blackout the line frequency was 56 Hz, and just two minutes 
before the blackout that frequency dropped to 51 Hz.

51Hz ??!!  Wow.  

Re: [time-nuts] Mains frequency

[Jim Sanford]

All:
Some crude approximations.

Generators that I know of do in fact have a negative slope of frequency 
versus load.  This is deliberate, to enable stable load sharing.On 
small systems, you try to set the slopes proportional to load capacity 
so that load sharing remains proportional in the face of a step increase 
in load.  The amount of load each machine carries is proportional to 
capacity in these systems if their no-load frequencies are equal before 
parallel.  Once in parallel, the proportion can be adjusted in infinite 
combinations by adjusting governor (frequency setting) on the two machines.


It gets much more complex in larger systems, but the fundamentals above 
are a good start in understanding.  With networked automation, what I 
described above can be largely automated, as long as the system is stable.


As an aside,  similar situation exists with voltage versus reactive 
load.  Increased reactive (usually inductive; large motors) load is seen 
as higher line current at the generator output, requiring increased 
excitation current in the generator field to overcome internal losses 
and maintain the same terminal voltage.  This is what initiated the 2003 
blackout in parts of the US  Canada.  A utility had a paucity of 
reactive generation on a day with large reactive load, and one of its 
generators tripped on over-excitation to prevent damage to the generator 
and voltage regulator.  This initiated the cascading events that left 
many in the dark.  (The Joint US/Canada task force on that event is a 
/fascinating/ read!)


Relaxing frequency tolerance gives the system operators additional 
freedom in managing their systems in the face of rapidly changing load 
or generation.  As the penetration of solar and, in particular wind, 
increases, managing this is becoming more difficult, so additional 
variation helps keep the grid on line.  A 2007 US DOE report stated that 
to be stable, the grid needs some percentage of excess generation 
capacity over load, and stated at the time, the US had just UNDER that 
amount of excess, and projected construction was much less than 
projected load increase.  That report predicted widespread and frequent 
rotating blackouts in the US by 2010, which obviously didn't happen, due 
to a /decrease/ in load, probably due to the combination of the economy 
and energy conservation efforts.


Since then, large amounts of generation (primarily coal) has been shut 
down, so I was not at all surprised by the request.


I missed the announcement that the request was withdrawn, and actually 
thought it had been approved and enacted -- all my line-frequency based 
clocks are now erratic and not very accurate.


Hope this helps.

Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 3/12/2014 3:23 PM, Hal Murray wrote:

So we know there are deviations in line freq. But it seems strange in this
era of very accurate and inexpensive freq references. How much is related to
the generation?

Controlling the line frequency is a giant PLL, with horrible complications.

The simple setup for a big generator is that if you add load, the generator
will slow down slightly.  You can feed it more fuel to get it back up to
speed.  I think that part is classic PLL theory.  Given the inertia of the
generator and time delay around the loop, you can predict the response to a
simple change in load, watch for instabilities and such.

In the real world, there are at least two levels of complications.  The first
is that you are doing it with many generators rather than one.  When load is
added, you have to decide which generator(s) will work harder.

The other nasty complication is that you want to do it as cheaply as possible
as well as follow all the rules from regulators.

One of the complications from regulators is a requirement to make clocks that
depend on the line frequency keep good time.  There was a proposal a while
ago to remove that constraint.  I think it got dropped, but I could easily
have missed an interesting announcement.

-

Has anybody collected data from a typical few-KW portable generator?  It
would be interesting to see if interesting things happen if you turn some
lights on/off at the right frequency.

Here is the Aurora video:
   Staged cyber attack reveals vulnerability in power grid
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJyWngDco3g
(1 min)







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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble replacement part-2

[Jim Sanford]

Someone earlier suggested a group buy of the Jackson Labs device.  I 
would be interested.


As for power supplies, my Nortel-TB is on an analog power supply, 
deliberately.  I do intend to put a scope on it, and see if it may be 
contributing noise to the issues I see.  (I'm wondering if it has 
sufficient high frequency bypassing, and sufficient bulk capacitance to 
deal with transients.)  If it is, I will put it on battery, with the 
analog supply as a charger...


More I think about it, the more I like the Jackson Labs devices. 
Especially that they work with the GPSCON software (I think).

Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 10/13/2013 5:47 AM, Robert Atkinson wrote:

Hi Frank,
I would NOT put the spare TB on a PC powersupply. Check out both TB's on the 
bench using decent linear supplies. I don't like using PC supplies on critical 
equipment. They are typically designed for a specific (high) load on one output 
(5V on early ones 12V on more modern) to maintain regulation on the other 
outputs. They are designed down to a cost and are often not great in terms of 
suppressing spikes and surges. You are running a sub 15W TB on a 100-300W PSU. 
And then there is the phase noise issue. Whay put a $30 PSU on $1000 Frequency 
standard? A 3 line analog supply is easy to build at most 2 transformers two 
bridge rectifiers a few capacitors and 3 78xx series regulators. Surplus (or 
new) linear supplies are available, I use a HTAA-16W-AG by Power-One / Condor / 
SL Power,  like ebay items 300956540240 300956540566 ($15 each). Even new from 
Mouser they are under $100. These high quality 100% duty cycle units are 
slightly underated for start-up
  current on the +12V rail, but with virtually no load on the -12V and low load 
on the +5V it works fine. I'm in the UK on 50Hz mains so its worse case, the 
PSU has 20% more capacity on 60Hz.
Bin the switcher!


Robert G8RPI.



  From: Frank Hughes hp_cisco...@yahoo.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, 12 October 2013, 22:49
Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble replacement part-2
  


Hi,
Well, now I have determined that the TB
is actually bad and/or the goofy PC power brick is no longer making
correct volts.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x257/fish1_07/am/trimble_trouble_zps70b440a7.png

I had one spare Trimble remaining to
replace it with.
Not sure what model the new one is, the
enclosure is red and a different form factor than the smaller anodized
Aluminum TB that failed.

New one works fine:
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x257/fish1_07/am/Trimble_replaced_10_12_2013_zps5042b487.png

Funny thing, my HP 59309A Clock had
stopped working, I thought it had a failure too, but when a stable
10Mhz signal appeared at the HP input, the ancient HP clock is back
to abby-normal again!
I should remember that the HP is also a miners canary for the TB...

In a state of delusion, I sent an EM to
Jackson Labs sales to see if they will sell a Fury
to an individual..can't imagine what
Quan-1 $$$ is going to be...

73
Frank
KJ4OLL
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble TB replacement options???

[Jim Sanford]

I looked into the Jackson Labs products.  Prices range from nearly $400 
to almost $1300 for a dual-oven unit.


Seemed reasonable, but higher than I'm willing to go at the moment. 
Maybe down the road


Had a Z3801 which worked for 10 years, then failed - experimenter who 
bought it found the XO some 40 Hz off -- not correctible without 
invasive repair.  I think he gave up and kept it for parts.


I bought one ot the TB clones off the e-place, and am not yet sure 
whether it is good or not.  It spends more time in RECOVERY mode than 
PHASE LOCKED, and the VCO voltage takes large jumps every time the 
number of satellites changes.  Still scratching my head.


Good luck!
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 10/12/2013 9:16 AM, Mark C. Stephens wrote:

As per Bob Camps Wisdom below, most of the thunderbolts and Z38XX have been 
well picked over, the remaining ones are usually poor in some way.
The main problem seems to be unstable oscillators, invasive repair is required 
to meet specifications.

--marki

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Bob Camp
Sent: Saturday, 12 October 2013 10:52 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble TB replacement options???

Hi

All of these gizmos come on the market cheap when they are being scrapped out. 
Once that process is over for a generation of parts, the pieces climb. There 
are only a few working strategies:

1) Buy several when they first come out.
2) Pay the going rate many years later.
3) Switch to other gizmos with other cost / feature tradeoffs.

In this case the likely tradeoff is to one of the Nortel / Trimble units or to 
one of the later HP boxes. The Nortel / Trimbles are in the sub $150 price 
range delivered. The later HP's are a bit more expensive. The Nortel / 
Trimble's come mainly from RDR Electronics on the e-place. The HP's come from 
the other side of the Pacific Ocean.

One other option - before I'd pay $300 for a possibly broken TBolt (I've got a 
few of those), I'd do an email to find out what a brand new GPSDO (with 
warranty) from Jackson Labs would cost me.

Bob

On Oct 11, 2013, at 8:51 PM, Paul tic-...@bodosom.net wrote:


On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 7:24 PM, Frank Hughes hp_cisco...@yahoo.com wrote:

Does it seem like the Trimble Thunderbolt units are becoming scarce, and 
commanding prices accordingly?

The inexpensive used Thunderbolts predate my interest in GPSDOs so I
can't speak to relative prices but if your budget is ~ $300 they're
still readily available.  The various 2PPS Trimble GPSTM boxes/boards
seem to occupy the  $200 Thunderbot-like niche and some work
(somewhat) with Lady Heather if you're fond of that program.

Various Z38xx devices are also candidates if you just want an
inexpensive GPSDO in-a-box with 1 and 10M Hz (some with multiple
outputs) if you are willing to deal with  it's-not-quite-a-Z3801
behavior.
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble TB replacement options???

[Jim Sanford]

Very tempting.  I just ordered 100 and 1000MHz VCXOs from Fox 
Electronics, with the intent of locking them to my GPSDO.  I think, in 
perusing various lists, I did see some 10 MHz devices at relatively 
affordable prices.  (Somebody on this list pointed me to Fox, don't 
remember who.)


A DIY GPSDO would be WONDERFUL!  Already have a couple of Jupiter GPS 
boards with 1pps output


Jim

On 10/12/2013 11:54 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:
What is needed now is a easy to assemble DIY GPSDO.  In the past 
people lost interest in such becuase you could buy a TB for $90.  I'd 
think today now that we have $10 microcontroller boards that have USB 
connections and are self-programming we could make a GPSDO controller 
with justone of those boards and two cheap chips (plus a GPS and XO.)



On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 7:41 AM, Jim Sanford wb4...@wb4gcs.org 
mailto:wb4...@wb4gcs.org wrote:


I looked into the Jackson Labs products.  Prices range from nearly
$400 to almost $1300 for a dual-oven unit.

Seemed reasonable, but higher than I'm willing to go at the
moment. Maybe down the road

Had a Z3801 which worked for 10 years, then failed - experimenter
who bought it found the XO some 40 Hz off -- not correctible
without invasive repair.  I think he gave up and kept it for parts.

I bought one ot the TB clones off the e-place, and am not yet sure
whether it is good or not.  It spends more time in RECOVERY mode
than PHASE LOCKED, and the VCO voltage takes large jumps every
time the number of satellites changes.  Still scratching my head.

Good luck!
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org mailto:wb4...@amsat.org


On 10/12/2013 9:16 AM, Mark C. Stephens wrote:

As per Bob Camps Wisdom below, most of the thunderbolts and
Z38XX have been well picked over, the remaining ones are
usually poor in some way.
The main problem seems to be unstable oscillators, invasive
repair is required to meet specifications.

--marki

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
[mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Saturday, 12 October 2013 10:52 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble TB replacement options???

Hi

All of these gizmos come on the market cheap when they are
being scrapped out. Once that process is over for a generation
of parts, the pieces climb. There are only a few working
strategies:

1) Buy several when they first come out.
2) Pay the going rate many years later.
3) Switch to other gizmos with other cost / feature tradeoffs.

In this case the likely tradeoff is to one of the Nortel /
Trimble units or to one of the later HP boxes. The Nortel /
Trimbles are in the sub $150 price range delivered. The later
HP's are a bit more expensive. The Nortel / Trimble's come
mainly from RDR Electronics on the e-place. The HP's come from
the other side of the Pacific Ocean.

One other option - before I'd pay $300 for a possibly broken
TBolt (I've got a few of those), I'd do an email to find out
what a brand new GPSDO (with warranty) from Jackson Labs would
cost me.

Bob

On Oct 11, 2013, at 8:51 PM, Paul tic-...@bodosom.net
mailto:tic-...@bodosom.net wrote:

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 7:24 PM, Frank Hughes
hp_cisco...@yahoo.com mailto:hp_cisco...@yahoo.com wrote:

Does it seem like the Trimble Thunderbolt units are
becoming scarce, and commanding prices accordingly?

The inexpensive used Thunderbolts predate my interest in
GPSDOs so I
can't speak to relative prices but if your budget is ~
$300 they're
still readily available.  The various 2PPS Trimble GPSTM
boxes/boards
seem to occupy the  $200 Thunderbot-like niche and some work
(somewhat) with Lady Heather if you're fond of that program.

Various Z38xx devices are also candidates if you just want an
inexpensive GPSDO in-a-box with 1 and 10M Hz (some with
multiple
outputs) if you are willing to deal with
 it's-not-quite-a-Z3801
behavior.
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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO choices

[Jim Sanford]

What did it cost?  When I inquired, the price was horrendous.
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 10/7/2013 7:28 PM, Paul wrote:

On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 2:52 PM,  saidj...@aol.com wrote:

Paul,
try the_Jackson Labs GPSTCXO eval kit_.

On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 5:59 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E.
j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote:

  We have the GPSTCXO eval kit that Said is speaking of and we
have been very satisfied.

I have one.  It's nice but I want a 1PPS BNC too (without soldering)
and no more tiny antenna connectors.

--
Paul
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Re: [time-nuts] Reflections and Low Phase Noise

[Jim Sanford]

Tom:
I would like to see that paper.
Thanks,
jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 9/21/2013 1:50 PM, Tom Knox wrote:

If this at first appears to be off topic read on.
Having this year survived fire evacuations and most recently what has been 
called anything from a five to 1000 year flood here in Boulder, I have has a 
little time to reflect on just how lucky I was. Over the last few years I have 
made a few upgrades to harden my home against natural disasters. Adding 
sprinklers to the roof and a industrial sump pump in my basement. To say the 
least it paid off in a big way last week, since if my basement had flooded I 
would have lost my lab that I have spent several decades building. It has 
motivated me to finish upgrading my grounding and lightning protection with a 
new eye to detail. I write this post to encourage others to do the same by 
spending a few minutes to look for any vulnerabilities and spend a few days 
addressing them. Or at least upgrading insurance. For many here in Boulder 
lately there is nothing they could have done,  but for amny other a few minutes 
could have saved them months of work. If I can help just one Time-Nut save!
   his lab
  it is worth it.
Now for the good stuff, We all have our idea of what a low or Ultra Low
 phase noise oscillator is. For 5 and 10MHz references I usually
 look first at 1Hz offset then the noise floor. At 5MHz I
 consider 125dB @ 1Hz state of the art. But now
 Arcihita Hati and colleges at NIST has designed a State-of-the-Art RF 
Signal Generation From Optical Frequency Division that sets a new standard for 
low phase noise with nearly -155dB @ 1Hz for a 5MHz reference. All I want to 
know is when will it be available as a
 single chip. And how long before Magnus, TVB, and other Senior
 Time-Nut have a workable prototype in their labs? The NIST link is not 
yet active, but if you would like a copy of the paper now email me off list I 
will send you the paper as an attachment. I think it may also be posted on 
IEEE's pay to play site.

Thomas Knox



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Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA

[Jim Sanford]

Mine insists on determining a negative altitude.  sometimes it's called 
a good position, sometimes not.  Eventually, it becomes 'good even with 
-altitude!


Now I understand why it goes in and out of holdover, but what about the 
bad altitude??

Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 9/20/2013 6:22 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

If the unit is dropping into holdover, something is wrong with the number of 
sat's it's seeing. If you have saved a location properly, it will only go into 
holdover when it's got zero sats. If it does not believe it's got a proper 
location it will drop into holdover when it goes below 4 sats. The number of 
sats visible isn't what counts here, it's the number that are locked up, above 
the elevation mask, and above the AMU threshold. Set either the elevation or 
the AMU to high and you will go in and out of holdover.

Bob

On Sep 20, 2013, at 2:13 PM, quartz55 quart...@hughes.net wrote:


I was thinking of keeping a couple of batterys floated across the supply, since 
it will run on 24V.  I'll have to figure out what I'll need for maybe 2 hours.  
Not sure what it's drawing now at 30V, but wouldn't be hard to measure.

Couple more things.

What is the foliage filter and will it work on the Nortel?

I keep seeing my holdover going up but haven't seen any sat drop out or yellow 
light on the front.  Is there any way to re-set the holdover without turning 
the unit off?  It's up to 468 now, not sure where it started the other day but 
probably in the 200's.  I may be dreaming too.

I've dropped the idea about choke ring or ground planes after reading what I 
could about it.  I may try building my own turnstile antenna (ala K7KKQ) and 
amp just for fun.  Amps are cheap from Mouser and have less than 2 dB NF unlike 
mine which is 4 dB.  Has someone made a DIY helix?  I liked the pinwheel 
antenna but it may be hard to make.

Dave
  - Original Message -
  From: Charles Steinmetz
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
  Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 1:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA


  Dave wrote:


We have plenty outages here, so I may look into a UPS of some sort
but I have a rather large generator that I always turn on after
about 1/2 hour or so.

  The UPS is to keep master oscillators (and for some of us, ovenized
  voltage standards) running uninterrupted from the time of the failure
  until the generator is running.  Best practice is to use a double
  conversion UPS to avoid even a short outage as it kicks in.

  Best regards,

  Charles
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Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA

[Jim Sanford]

I'm 1250' ABOVE sea Level.

LH currently reports an altitude of -2500'.  What's up with this??
Jim

On 9/20/2013 7:29 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

GPS uses a model of the earth. It calculates position relative to this model. 
The model does *not* correspond to sea level. It's very common to be driving 
along the beach and see negative altitude numbers with an honest GPS. If you 
are located within 100' of sea level, you may see negative altitude from a GPS. 
In other areas you may of course see significant positive altitudes when 
sitting on the beach.

Bob

On Sep 20, 2013, at 7:23 PM, Jim Sanford wb4...@wb4gcs.org wrote:


Mine insists on determining a negative altitude.  sometimes it's called a good 
position, sometimes not.  Eventually, it becomes 'good even with -altitude!

Now I understand why it goes in and out of holdover, but what about the bad 
altitude??
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 9/20/2013 6:22 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

If the unit is dropping into holdover, something is wrong with the number of 
sat's it's seeing. If you have saved a location properly, it will only go into 
holdover when it's got zero sats. If it does not believe it's got a proper 
location it will drop into holdover when it goes below 4 sats. The number of 
sats visible isn't what counts here, it's the number that are locked up, above 
the elevation mask, and above the AMU threshold. Set either the elevation or 
the AMU to high and you will go in and out of holdover.

Bob

On Sep 20, 2013, at 2:13 PM, quartz55 quart...@hughes.net wrote:


I was thinking of keeping a couple of batterys floated across the supply, since 
it will run on 24V.  I'll have to figure out what I'll need for maybe 2 hours.  
Not sure what it's drawing now at 30V, but wouldn't be hard to measure.

Couple more things.

What is the foliage filter and will it work on the Nortel?

I keep seeing my holdover going up but haven't seen any sat drop out or yellow 
light on the front.  Is there any way to re-set the holdover without turning 
the unit off?  It's up to 468 now, not sure where it started the other day but 
probably in the 200's.  I may be dreaming too.

I've dropped the idea about choke ring or ground planes after reading what I 
could about it.  I may try building my own turnstile antenna (ala K7KKQ) and 
amp just for fun.  Amps are cheap from Mouser and have less than 2 dB NF unlike 
mine which is 4 dB.  Has someone made a DIY helix?  I liked the pinwheel 
antenna but it may be hard to make.

Dave
  - Original Message -
  From: Charles Steinmetz
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
  Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 1:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA


  Dave wrote:


We have plenty outages here, so I may look into a UPS of some sort
but I have a rather large generator that I always turn on after
about 1/2 hour or so.

  The UPS is to keep master oscillators (and for some of us, ovenized
  voltage standards) running uninterrupted from the time of the failure
  until the generator is running.  Best practice is to use a double
  conversion UPS to avoid even a short outage as it kicks in.

  Best regards,

  Charles
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator stability was (New NTBW50AA)

[Jim Sanford]

So, what settings would you recommend for an application where frequency 
accuracy and low phase noise of the 10 MHz output are the objectives?


In particular, I'm not sure I understand how to establish the extended 
TC method.


Thanks!
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 9/14/2013 6:21 PM, WarrenS wrote:

OT for the current heading, so I renamed it Oscillator stability

as Tom says, it's a complicated subject.
And to complicate things even further, here are a few of advanced 
subtleties that I've observed from the TBolt when using LadyHeather.



1) The TBolt uses the received GPS signal as the reference for the 
calculated OSC freq offset and the Phase offset, over a measurement 
time of 1 sec.

Unfortunately, from second to second the GPS signal is very noisy.
Fortunately, LadyHeather can display plots of the data with several 
helpful user options, such as gain, offset, and most important length 
of time averaged.


2) The Osc freq display plot of LH is so noisy that I find it mostly 
useless,
unless I turn on LH's display filter to average the data over more 
than 1 second.
LH allows you to manually turn-on and set the display filter to any 
time period desired,

doing so this will greatly reduce the noise of the Osc plot.
(10 samples is the display filter default, but I find 100sec to be a 
better place to start, for most things)
A problem with the LH Osc freq plot even after filtering, is that the 
frequency difference data can not be counted on to be more accurate 
than a few parts in 1e-12 due to some offset rounding problems that 
often occurs.



3) On the other hand, the filtered Phase plot has no known offset error.
The Tbolt accurately shows time/phase different between the 1PPS and 
the received GPS signal,
and when disciplined, it assumes if there is a difference, then the 
GPS is always right.
This is why the antenna placement and setup is so important. Gunk in, 
Gunk out.



4) The GPS signal, even on a 'perfect antenna', tends to wonders 
around ~10 ns PP independently of the time period averaged.

So if LH is showing less than ~ 10 ns of GPS noise in the phase plot,
it is because the control loop is set too fast and therefore forcing 
the Osc's freq to change a little so that it's phase will wonder 
around with the GPS's noise.
Tbolt's max useable time constant is only 1000 sec, which is not 
nearly long enough to avoid this problem, when using a stable external 
osc like a good RB.
To avoid tracking the noisy GPS data, the extended TC method must be 
used to set the Tbolt's osc to values  1000 seconds,
and/or you can reduce the speed of  the phase tracking using the 
damping setting..


4) How well and how fast the Tbolt minimizes the PPS phase and freq 
offset compared to the received GPS signal all depends on tuning.
The Tbolt's TC determines what the Frequency  tracking time constant 
will be, and the TBolt's damping setting determines what the Phase 
tracking time multiplier is.
If you set the damping factor to a large value like 100, then the 
Phase tracking will pretty much be turned off,
making the disciplined loop more of a freq lock loop instead of a 
phase lock loop. This is done by lowering the gain of the loop's PID 
integrator.
This is a way to set the phase's tracking time constant to be much 
slower than the freq TC setting, and if desired the phase tracking TC 
can be made several days long.
Turning off the phase tracking has it's own set of pros and cons, but 
in most cases it is generally not desirerable in GPSDO.
A damping setting of 0.7 to 1 will give the best overall compromise 
between the trade-off of not adding extra freq noise but still 
allowing good phase tracking.



5) What some do not realize is to correct for any phase drift error, 
the Oscillator must be set off frequency.
When the frequency is correct there is no further change in the 
present phase, whatever the present phase may be or wherever it may of 
come from.
The faster you want to correct or change the present phase difference, 
no mater how it got there, the larger that the present frequency error 
must be made. (this causes freq noise)
The trade off is, if you do not correct the present phase error then 
the past average frequency will be in error.


6) So it is all a matter of what is more important to the application, 
present frequency error and noise or the average of all past frequency 
errors?
The goal of most GPSDO is to keep the average past frequency error to 
zero. (a Phase Lock Loop)
Where as for many transmitter things such as used by Hams,  it is the 
present errors and noise that is more important.
So no need to cause a present freq error just to fix something that 
happened in the past.
The past is gone and what happened before does not matter anymore. (a 
Freq Lock Loop)


ws

***

- Original Message - From: Tom Van Baak
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA



I get a spread of 

Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Nortel GPSTM Boards

[Jim Sanford]

Did you /increase/ the elevation mask?
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 8/5/2013 8:06 PM, gandal...@aol.com wrote:

Many thanks to those who commented on this and apologies for the delayed
response, having spent a few days in an internet free zone I've also had to
contend with a couple of power failures since returning but am just  about
getting back to normal again, whatever normal might be:-)
  
As suggested, changing the elevation mask does make a difference to the DAC

  voltage jumps, I'd just run up Lady Heather on default settings to start
with  which sets it to 10 degrees and changing that to 20 degrees, for
example, has reduced the steps in the DAC voltage as sats come and go,  they're
still there but not so pronounced.
  
Having said that, comparing this with a Thunderbolt, albeit using another

Thunderbolt as the reference for both, does tend to give more  pronounced
steps on the Thunderbolt for the same elevation mask and sensitivity  settings.
As others have commented previously I'm also noticing the much reduced
temperature sensitivity of this unit compared with the Thunderbolt which is
quite a big plus, but it's not all totally one sided, both Lady Heather and  a
couple of Pendulum counters are showing somewhat lower Adev values for  the
Thunderbolt although the plots of frequency against time show very  similar
limits.
  
Either way, so far at least this does seem to be working well. I still

haven't heard from anyone who's run the two available GPSTM variants side  by
side so I'm still debating whether or not to try that for myself,  or whether
to just quit whilst I'm ahead:-)
  
Regards
  
Nigel

GM8PZR
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
In a message dated 31/07/2013 22:48:13 GMT Daylight Time, gandal...@aol.com

  writes:

Having  stuck a late bid on a recent auction for what I'd  assumed was a
Trimble Nortel NTGS50AA I then realised I'd  just bought the single  board
version, part number 4500-00-CH  with the Trimble 49422-CR  OCXO.

That in itself wasn't a problem, except perhaps the doubts cast  over  my
sanity:-), it arrived earlier today and has been   running for several
hours
now, chatting comfortably with  Lady  Heather, and generally settling in
nicely.

However, it does prompt the  question, has anyone had a chance to compare
one of these side by  side with an NTGS50AA and, if so, were there any
obvious differences  in  performance?

Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR


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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Nortel GPSTM Boards

[Jim Sanford]

Bob:
Well, this is discouraging.  The receiver seems to work -- receives the 
sats it should.  Seriously doubt there's any multipath out here in the 
boondocks.  Maybe some tree absorption at very low elevation, but very 
little in the way of reflectors.  I'm on 10 acres on a hillside, with 
trees in the distance.

Jim

On 8/2/2013 9:24 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Either a blown receiver (likely the SAW filter) or antenna multi path.

Bob


On Aug 1, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Jim Sanford wb4...@wb4gcs.org wrote:


I am seeing the same thing -- big jumps every single time a satellite is 
counted or not.  Elevation mask 10 degrees, which should be very good and 
stable for my location.  The unit also insists on converging to a bat altitude, 
then after a while declares stored position bad . ..  then declares position 
good, even with bad altitude.

Ideas appreciated.

jimwb4...@amsat.org

On 8/1/2013 6:31 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

You may have your elevation mask set to low for your antenna or a multi path 
issue from some other source.  If the survey location is good to under a meter 
and the signals are good, there should be very little shift as sats are picked 
up or dropped.

Bob

On Aug 1, 2013, at 5:09 AM, gandal...@aol.com wrote:


Hi Charles

Thanks for your comments, the surveyed position on this is looking pretty
good but what I have now realised is that the severity of the jumps  seems
very much related to the number of sattelites being tracked.

Switching from 8 to 7, or 7 to 8, sats seems to produce the biggest  step
change whilst switching in either direction between 5 and 6, for  example,
doesn't seem to show up at all on the monitored DAC voltage.
Ok, I take that back, it does still seem to depend on the number of sats
being switched between but I've just seen a switch from 5 to 4 sats induce a
very noticeable step change in DAC voltage, so the relationship  doesn't
appear to be linear.

Unfortunately I need to power this down now for a few days but  will
investigate more later.

Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR


In a message dated 01/08/2013 09:45:24 GMT Daylight Time,
charles_steinm...@lavabit.com writes:

Nigel  wrote:


at times I'm seeing very noticeable step changes in the DAC  voltage
on this one as that happens.
  *   *   *
I am a bit surprised by the extent, a  Mark Sims online plot from
2012 shows some correlation on an NTGS50AA  but not as noticeable as
this, and I  don't recall seeing  anything quite so pronounced on a

Thunderbolt.

IME (with TBolts), the  magnitude of the DAC steps with constellation
changes varies with the  accuracy of the positional data used by the
GPS.  To a point, the  more accurate the survey, the smaller the DAC
jumps will be.  (Other  errors prevent reducing the
constellation-change DAC steps to  zero.)

Mark has commented here on survey accuracy, and the methods he  used
in Lady Heather to maximize it.

Best  regards,

Charles




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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Nortel GPSTM Boards

[Jim Sanford]

I am seeing the same thing -- big jumps every single time a satellite is 
counted or not.  Elevation mask 10 degrees, which should be very good 
and stable for my location.  The unit also insists on converging to a 
bat altitude, then after a while declares stored position bad . ..  then 
declares position good, even with bad altitude.


Ideas appreciated.

jimwb4...@amsat.org

On 8/1/2013 6:31 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

You may have your elevation mask set to low for your antenna or a multi path 
issue from some other source.  If the survey location is good to under a meter 
and the signals are good, there should be very little shift as sats are picked 
up or dropped.

Bob

On Aug 1, 2013, at 5:09 AM, gandal...@aol.com wrote:


Hi Charles

Thanks for your comments, the surveyed position on this is looking pretty
good but what I have now realised is that the severity of the jumps  seems
very much related to the number of sattelites being tracked.

Switching from 8 to 7, or 7 to 8, sats seems to produce the biggest  step
change whilst switching in either direction between 5 and 6, for  example,
doesn't seem to show up at all on the monitored DAC voltage.
Ok, I take that back, it does still seem to depend on the number of sats
being switched between but I've just seen a switch from 5 to 4 sats induce a
very noticeable step change in DAC voltage, so the relationship  doesn't
appear to be linear.

Unfortunately I need to power this down now for a few days but  will
investigate more later.

Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR


In a message dated 01/08/2013 09:45:24 GMT Daylight Time,
charles_steinm...@lavabit.com writes:

Nigel  wrote:


at times I'm seeing very noticeable step changes in the DAC  voltage
on this one as that happens.
  *   *   *
I am a bit surprised by the extent, a  Mark Sims online plot from
2012 shows some correlation on an NTGS50AA  but not as noticeable as
this, and I  don't recall seeing  anything quite so pronounced on a

Thunderbolt.

IME (with TBolts), the  magnitude of the DAC steps with constellation
changes varies with the  accuracy of the positional data used by the
GPS.  To a point, the  more accurate the survey, the smaller the DAC
jumps will be.  (Other  errors prevent reducing the
constellation-change DAC steps to  zero.)

Mark has commented here on survey accuracy, and the methods he  used
in Lady Heather to maximize it.

Best  regards,

Charles




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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing

[Jim Sanford]

As a (former) Naval Officer, I will tell you that a competent mariner 
should always be using and cross-checking /all /sources -- GPS, radar, 
dead reconing, /looking out the window/, and even celestial in open ocean.


(I frequently had to remind my junior officers that nobody ever ran 
aground or collided with another ship from spending too much time 
looking out the window.  Way too easy to get their heads stuck in the 
radar or the GPS map.


73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 7/27/2013 9:43 AM, Scott McGrath wrote:

Key here is how does the captain know that GPS is no longer providing an 
accurate fix?   You need 2 or more independent systems to cross check each 
other.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 27, 2013, at 12:21 AM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote:


On 7/26/13 8:45 PM, J. Forster wrote:

I gather from the article, the GPS position was spoofed and the autopilot,
in bringing it back to where it was supposed to be, actually took it off
course.

There are places where a few hundred feet makes a big difference, viz. the
Costa Concordia.

IMO, this is a very convincing reason for something like LORAN.

I think it's a convincing argument for a captain who pays attention to the 
other navigation instruments and doesn't blindly follow the GPS.

It's also a convincing argument that shipboard automation/autopilot/autocontrol 
vendors need to make more sophisticated software (which I suspect they do, 
particularly on 200+ foot ships.. I would imagine that there are some aspects 
of this demo that are contrived.)  The ship making and driving business is 
pretty unregulated. It's all about what the owner of the ship is willing to pay 
(or what he needs to get liability insurance, if he wants).  There's nothing 
even remotely like DO-178 for shipboard stuff.

The folks doing stabilized oil rigs probably have sophisticated systems, but 
they're also using IMUs and other stuff. Ditto for high value things (oil 
tankers, warships).  Molasses tankers? They're probably lucky to have a 
functioning compass and some old charts.


I'm not sure, though, that looking at the big picture, whether your tax dollars 
are better spent on LORAN, or on some other precision navigation method or on 
making jam resistant GPS receivers (which do, in fact exist, and make use of 
things like direction of arrival of the signal..)

Note that a GPS system with 3 antennas (as is common in systems that use GPS to 
derive attitude/orientation) would be extremely difficult to spoof, and would 
be VERY inexpensive to implement.  Either the carrier phases and code phases 
are consistent for all the received signals or they're not.  A jamming signal 
coming from the wrong direction will not have the right direction of arrival 
relative to the platform orientation.  One wrong signal might be tolerable 
(multipath, etc.) but with a multi satellite fix, I suspect it would be hard to 
do it.

Sure, one could throw up N pseudolites on a bunch of UAVs, etc., but that's 
getting to be a bit noticeable.


For what it's worth, I don't know that LORAN has the performance to avoid a 
Costa Concordia type foul up (assuming they were crazy enough to do the near 
pass in the fog, so visual navigation didn't work)

I seem to recall that LORAN had 1/4 nmi kinds of accuracy.  it would get you to 
the channel or mouth of the harbor, but not get you into your berth. You might 
be familiar with the local propagation anomalies and get better accuracy with 
experience in your local waters.







-John

=




I boat?  The backup is a competent captain.  He'd see the compass heading
move and quickly disengage the autopilot.   I had a boat for years  I'd
notice a 5 degree change.  Mine was a sailboat so I'd be more sensitive to
heading changes than a power boater but still the human is the backup.

Most autopilots don't directly follow GPS, they use GPS to determine a
heading, follow it then use GPS to detect drift and re-compute the
heading.
  the heading would be held by a compass sensor in a low-cost setup or in a
larger setup a lazer ring gyro backed up by a compass. So a spoofed
GPS
would cause the autopilot to think there was a bigger crooswnd or
current
and make a bigger heading change.

I bet you could hijack a drone not a manned vehicle the pilot is trained
to
monitor the automation and he'd very quickly turn it off thinking it was
broken.






On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:41 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:


Prof. Humphry from Texas just reported being able to spoof GPS in the
Med
and take over the nav system of a luxury yacht. He's done this before
with
a drone in the US.

LORAN as a backup, at least?

-John

==



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--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California


___

Re: [time-nuts] Nortel/Thunderbolt questions

[Jim Sanford]

Bob:
Correct, the Trimble Nortel box.  Replaced the old HP antenna with the 
26db amplified antenna which came with it, also mounted higher, and more 
clear of the roof.  It is seeing 5 satellites, 3 in yellow, and still 
says RECOVERY MODE.  It also (now) says, SAVED POSITION BAD, which I 
would expect, with a 300' error in elevation.


Jim

On 7/13/2013 9:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

I believe what you have here is a Trimble / Nortel box rather than a TBolt - is 
this correct?

If so there are a number of differences in what you can and can't do with LH. 
Also since it's a different design, the filter is set up differently.

That said, it should show lock, sats, dac voltage, and status correctly.

Bob

On Jul 12, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Jim Sanford wb4...@wb4gcs.org wrote:


All:
My Nortel receiver has been running for 6 days now.  I am running the Lady Heather 
software, but also have TBOLTMON.  It shows my position fairly well, but I have seen a 
negative altitude, and am currently seeing 1565' altitude.  Based on local maps and the 
GPS in the car, I believe the antenna to be no higher than 1280'.  I get lock with 4 to 6 
satellites colored green.  I have seen PHASE LOCKED, but am currently seeing 
recovery mode and the LOCKED LED on the unit is flashing, which I think I 
remember means recovery.

I have several questions:
1.  Sometimes position is displayed in yellow, sometimes in white. What is the 
significance of the color?
2.  I see TC 100.0 sec, DAMP1.200, GAIN 1.2 Hz/v, INIT 3.00V. When I go to 
KE5FX site, his values for TC, DAMP, Gain and INIT are very different.  In 
particular, if DAMP is damping in a control loop, I am not surprised that my 
very overdamped unit is not locking.   Question:  Are these parameters that 
will converge, or are they parameters I should try to set?  The heather.cpp 
files suggests that they may be settable, but does not say how.
3.  On my plot, I see an RMS value in green, which suggests to me that 
something is happy with the DAC voltage, even if very different from John's.  
The scale is 10uV/div which suggests to me that it is NOT locked.
4.  On my plot, I see an RMS value in yellow, which suggests to me that the 
temp is OK, but the scale on temp is growing at the momoent, 10mC/div; 
John's is 50 mC/div, but a much smoother plot than mine.  What is this telling 
me?

ROM,RAM, OSC, FPGA, POWER, EEPROM, ANTENNA, ALMANAC, DISCIPLINE, SAVED POSITION 
status are all OK, even though altitude is bad.
Can anyone help me understand what I am seeing, and in particular, why it won't 
lock, or stay locked, when it is seeing good sat signals?

Thanks!
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


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Re: [time-nuts] Nortel/Thunderbolt questions

[Jim Sanford]

I initiated a survey a few hours ago.

Now it thinks I'm at 175' altitude (more like 1280') and calls the saved 
position good.


What is the normal stuff to save the position??

Finally, every time that the satellite count changes, there's a huge 
(150,000 uV or so) excursion in the DAC voltage, so it never converges 
to small variation like I see when I look at the KE5FX site -- what is 
this telling me?


Thanks,
Jim

On 7/13/2013 8:44 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

On mine, I did a full reset and let them start from a survey. After they 
figured out where they were, I did the normal stuff to save the position.

Bob

On Jul 13, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Jim Sanford wb4...@wb4gcs.org wrote:


Bob:
Correct, the Trimble Nortel box.  Replaced the old HP antenna with the 26db 
amplified antenna which came with it, also mounted higher, and more clear of 
the roof.  It is seeing 5 satellites, 3 in yellow, and still says RECOVERY 
MODE.  It also (now) says, SAVED POSITION BAD, which I would expect, with a 
300' error in elevation.

Jim

On 7/13/2013 9:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

I believe what you have here is a Trimble / Nortel box rather than a TBolt - is 
this correct?

If so there are a number of differences in what you can and can't do with LH. 
Also since it's a different design, the filter is set up differently.

That said, it should show lock, sats, dac voltage, and status correctly.

Bob

On Jul 12, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Jim Sanford wb4...@wb4gcs.org wrote:


All:
My Nortel receiver has been running for 6 days now.  I am running the Lady Heather 
software, but also have TBOLTMON.  It shows my position fairly well, but I have seen a 
negative altitude, and am currently seeing 1565' altitude.  Based on local maps and the 
GPS in the car, I believe the antenna to be no higher than 1280'.  I get lock with 4 to 6 
satellites colored green.  I have seen PHASE LOCKED, but am currently seeing 
recovery mode and the LOCKED LED on the unit is flashing, which I think I 
remember means recovery.

I have several questions:
1.  Sometimes position is displayed in yellow, sometimes in white. What is the 
significance of the color?
2.  I see TC 100.0 sec, DAMP1.200, GAIN 1.2 Hz/v, INIT 3.00V. When I go to 
KE5FX site, his values for TC, DAMP, Gain and INIT are very different.  In 
particular, if DAMP is damping in a control loop, I am not surprised that my 
very overdamped unit is not locking.   Question:  Are these parameters that 
will converge, or are they parameters I should try to set?  The heather.cpp 
files suggests that they may be settable, but does not say how.
3.  On my plot, I see an RMS value in green, which suggests to me that 
something is happy with the DAC voltage, even if very different from John's.  
The scale is 10uV/div which suggests to me that it is NOT locked.
4.  On my plot, I see an RMS value in yellow, which suggests to me that the 
temp is OK, but the scale on temp is growing at the momoent, 10mC/div; 
John's is 50 mC/div, but a much smoother plot than mine.  What is this telling 
me?

ROM,RAM, OSC, FPGA, POWER, EEPROM, ANTENNA, ALMANAC, DISCIPLINE, SAVED POSITION 
status are all OK, even though altitude is bad.
Can anyone help me understand what I am seeing, and in particular, why it won't 
lock, or stay locked, when it is seeing good sat signals?

Thanks!
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


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[time-nuts] Nortel/Thunderbolt questions

[Jim Sanford]

All:
My Nortel receiver has been running for 6 days now.  I am running the 
Lady Heather software, but also have TBOLTMON.  It shows my position 
fairly well, but I have seen a negative altitude, and am currently 
seeing 1565' altitude.  Based on local maps and the GPS in the car, I 
believe the antenna to be no higher than 1280'.  I get lock with 4 to 6 
satellites colored green.  I have seen PHASE LOCKED, but am currently 
seeing recovery mode and the LOCKED LED on the unit is flashing, which 
I think I remember means recovery.


I have several questions:
1.  Sometimes position is displayed in yellow, sometimes in white. What 
is the significance of the color?
2.  I see TC 100.0 sec, DAMP1.200, GAIN 1.2 Hz/v, INIT 3.00V. When I go 
to KE5FX site, his values for TC, DAMP, Gain and INIT are very 
different.  In particular, if DAMP is damping in a control loop, I am 
not surprised that my very overdamped unit is not locking.   Question:  
Are these parameters that will converge, or are they parameters I should 
try to set?  The heather.cpp files suggests that they may be settable, 
but does not say how.
3.  On my plot, I see an RMS value in green, which suggests to me that 
something is happy with the DAC voltage, even if very different from 
John's.  The scale is 10uV/div which suggests to me that it is NOT 
locked.
4.  On my plot, I see an RMS value in yellow, which suggests to me that 
the temp is OK, but the scale on temp is growing at the momoent, 
10mC/div; John's is 50 mC/div, but a much smoother plot than mine.  What 
is this telling me?


ROM,RAM, OSC, FPGA, POWER, EEPROM, ANTENNA, ALMANAC, DISCIPLINE, SAVED 
POSITION status are all OK, even though altitude is bad.
Can anyone help me understand what I am seeing, and in particular, why 
it won't lock, or stay locked, when it is seeing good sat signals?


Thanks!
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org


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Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt

[Jim Sanford]

All:

This is still not going well.

I have tried 3 different computers, 2 running Win7 and one running XP.  
the XP machine successfully controls an Icom radio on the same port, so 
I know the port is good.  I have tried a new serial cable. I have tried 
with and without a null modem.


No matter what I do, Lady Heather reports no serial communications on 
comm/x.


/Thanks  73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org
/
/
On 7/6/2013 10:44 AM, Ed Palmer wrote:
Certainly if you need a full implementation with various control leads 
you might have to dig out the breakout box and figure it out. But the 
volts / no volts idea is still useful for connecting pairs like 
RTS/CTS or DSR/DTR.  But I'm surprised how many devices don't use the 
control leads.  Most of the devices I work with don't even use 
software flow control.


Ed

On 7/5/2013 10:06 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote:


I always cursed when I tried to figure out how to wire an RS232 cable
until I realized that transmit had a voltage on it while receive was 
close
to zero volts.  So now I just remember that volts on one end 
connects to no
volts on the other end.  Works every time and I don't have to think 
about

straight or cross-over.


That only works if there are only three wiresand no handshaking.  
What if

there is DTE/DCE and so on?

But I think in this case it is just a three wire connection but still 
there

is room for errors like for example is one of them a TTL level and the
other RS-232.  Some times you can mix the two, sometimes not.



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Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt

[Jim Sanford]

Not yet.  Have to find/build a breakout box.  Was hoping I'm doing 
something stupid with a setting


On 7/6/2013 1:17 PM, Ed Palmer wrote:
Have you put a scope on the Nortel's transmit lead?  If it happens to 
be putting out data you can at least determine the baud rate and 
whether it's TTL or RS232 levels.  It might put out some kind of 
startup message on powerup.


Ed

On 7/6/2013 10:56 AM, Jim Sanford wrote:

All:

This is still not going well.

I have tried 3 different computers, 2 running Win7 and one running 
XP.  the XP machine successfully controls an Icom radio on the same 
port, so I know the port is good.  I have tried a new serial cable. I 
have tried with and without a null modem.


No matter what I do, Lady Heather reports no serial communications on 
comm/x.


/Thanks  73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org
/
/
On 7/6/2013 10:44 AM, Ed Palmer wrote:
Certainly if you need a full implementation with various control 
leads you might have to dig out the breakout box and figure it out. 
But the volts / no volts idea is still useful for connecting pairs 
like RTS/CTS or DSR/DTR.  But I'm surprised how many devices don't 
use the control leads.  Most of the devices I work with don't even 
use software flow control.


Ed

On 7/5/2013 10:06 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net 
wrote:



I always cursed when I tried to figure out how to wire an RS232 cable
until I realized that transmit had a voltage on it while receive 
was close
to zero volts.  So now I just remember that volts on one end 
connects to no
volts on the other end.  Works every time and I don't have to 
think about

straight or cross-over.


That only works if there are only three wiresand no handshaking.  
What if

there is DTE/DCE and so on?

But I think in this case it is just a three wire connection but 
still there

is room for errors like for example is one of them a TTL level and the
other RS-232.  Some times you can mix the two, sometimes not.

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Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt

[Jim Sanford]

It is a Nortel, but no cables inside -- everything is on 1 board.

On 7/6/2013 1:36 PM, EB4APL wrote:
Is this Trimble Thunderbolt the Nortel-Trimble NTGS50AA board?  I 
had a problem with the com port of my unit upon removing it from the 
cabinet for some improvements.  After driving me nuts the problem was 
caused by the internal com cable which had a factory reversed 
connector that was unnoticed before.  I had put the full story 
recently on this list.


Regards,
Ignacio EB4APL


On 06/07/2013 18:56, Jim Sanford wrote:

All:

This is still not going well.

I have tried 3 different computers, 2 running Win7 and one running 
XP.  the XP machine successfully controls an Icom radio on the same 
port, so I know the port is good.  I have tried a new serial cable. I 
have tried with and without a null modem.


No matter what I do, Lady Heather reports no serial communications on 
comm/x.


/Thanks  73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org
/
/
On 7/6/2013 10:44 AM, Ed Palmer wrote:
Certainly if you need a full implementation with various control 
leads you might have to dig out the breakout box and figure it out. 
But the volts / no volts idea is still useful for connecting pairs 
like RTS/CTS or DSR/DTR.  But I'm surprised how many devices don't 
use the control leads.  Most of the devices I work with don't even 
use software flow control.


Ed

On 7/5/2013 10:06 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net 
wrote:



I always cursed when I tried to figure out how to wire an RS232 cable
until I realized that transmit had a voltage on it while receive 
was close
to zero volts.  So now I just remember that volts on one end 
connects to no
volts on the other end.  Works every time and I don't have to 
think about

straight or cross-over.


That only works if there are only three wiresand no handshaking.  
What if

there is DTE/DCE and so on?

But I think in this case it is just a three wire connection but 
still there

is room for errors like for example is one of them a TTL level and the
other RS-232.  Some times you can mix the two, sometimes not.





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Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt

[Jim Sanford]

All:

I suspected I had some stupid setting wrong . . . . . well, close. Turns 
out the port labelled COMM1 is in fact, COMM2.  Once I figured that out, 
both LadyHeather and TBOLTmon communicate.  Now I have to figure out 
why, after acquiring a LOCK yesterday, today it is declarning, ANTENNA OPEN.


Thanks for all the help!

73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801 replacement

[Jim Sanford]

All:

I purchased and am about to hook up the Nortel device.

Someone on this list expressed an interest in my old Z3801, but I lost 
the email.   If still interested, please contact me off list.


Thanks  73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 6/28/2013 9:45 AM, Jim Sanford wrote:

All:

My Z3801 no longer works, and I've not been able to get any new ideas 
on it, so am looking for a replacement.


I've come across a nice 10 MHz that has very good phase noise (-145db 
or so at 10 KHz offset), but costs $175 in single quantities 
(digi-key, I think.)  I was considering using one of W1GHz's boards to 
lock it to a jupter GPS engine that I already have.  Several people 
have told me this is overkill, recommending the Thunderbolt.


I've read that there are various OXCXs used in Thunderbolts, some OK, 
some not so good.


Looking on ebay right now, I see a Nortel Trimble NTBW50AA, a 
Symmetricom, NTBW50AA, and another Nortel.


Does anybody have experience with these?   I'm particularly interested 
in the best phase noise I can get.  This will be station master 
frequency reference, and will ultimately lock stations up to 10 GHz.


Thanks  73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

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[time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt

[Jim Sanford]

All:

I have my new Nortel unit powered up.  I have been unsuccessful at 
getting it to communicate with Lady Heather.


I have tried both 19K2, 7, O 1 and 9K6, 8, N, 1 on the serial port to no 
avail.
I tried the command line switch to wake up Nortel units wit both sets of 
serial parameters, to no avail.


The instance of Lady Heather which goes out to KE5FX site works, so I 
presume I have a correct installation of Lady Heather.


The Nortel appears to go through normal power up display on power up.  
Then it lights the yellow no communication LED.  Once I hooked up an 
antenna, within a few minutes, the green LOCK LED came on.  It appears 
that the Nortel is working.


Is there something I'm missing about making these two play nicely together??

Thanks  73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

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Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt

[Jim Sanford]

Just opened it up . . .  there is no cable.  Only one board; the DB-9 
connector is on the board.

Jim

On 7/5/2013 4:46 PM, Mark Sims wrote:

Most likely the cable to that front panel board is connected wrong.  The people 
that laid out the boards messed up the keying.  Connecting it the 
obvious/marked way won't work.  Use RED wire to key mark on the front panel,  
RED wire to other end on the main board.
Lady Heather uses 9600,8,N,1
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[time-nuts] Z3801 replacement

[Jim Sanford]

All:

My Z3801 no longer works, and I've not been able to get any new ideas on 
it, so am looking for a replacement.


I've come across a nice 10 MHz that has very good phase noise (-145db or 
so at 10 KHz offset), but costs $175 in single quantities (digi-key, I 
think.)  I was considering using one of W1GHz's boards to lock it to a 
jupter GPS engine that I already have.  Several people have told me this 
is overkill, recommending the Thunderbolt.


I've read that there are various OXCXs used in Thunderbolts, some OK, 
some not so good.


Looking on ebay right now, I see a Nortel Trimble NTBW50AA, a 
Symmetricom, NTBW50AA, and another Nortel.


Does anybody have experience with these?   I'm particularly interested 
in the best phase noise I can get.  This will be station master 
frequency reference, and will ultimately lock stations up to 10 GHz.


Thanks  73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801 replacement

[Jim Sanford]

Bob:
Thanks.
You correctly anticipated that I will use this to lock a 100 MHz 
Oscillator, and either multiply or lock from there.  (I'm considering a 
VCXO at 1GHz as well, it would either be locked to 100 MHz or 10 Mhz.  
Haven't decided yet, also considering multiplying up to 1000 and then 
from there to 2Ghz, 3Ghz, and 5.  Haven't decided about 10 Ghz yet.


Appreciate the info.  The units on ebay are cheaper than the VCXO I was 
considering (first time I looked, they were more), so will probably just 
do that.


Thanks again,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 6/28/2013 10:07 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi


On Jun 28, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Jim Sanford wb4...@wb4gcs.org wrote:


All:

My Z3801 no longer works, and I've not been able to get any new ideas on it, so 
am looking for a replacement.

I've come across a nice 10 MHz that has very good phase noise (-145db or so at 
10 KHz offset), but costs $175 in single quantities (digi-key, I think.)

The OCXO in the TBolt is about -165 at 10 KHz


  I was considering using one of W1GHz's boards to lock it to a jupter GPS 
engine that I already have.  Several people have told me this is overkill, 
recommending the Thunderbolt.

I've read that there are various OXCXs used in Thunderbolts, some OK, some not 
so good.

Looking on ebay right now, I see a Nortel Trimble NTBW50AA, a Symmetricom, 
NTBW50AA, and another Nortel.

Does anybody have experience with these?

Yes


   I'm particularly interested in the best phase noise I can get.

Spurs are what will kill you.

Phase noise is about 10 db worse than the TBolt far removed. It's similar close 
in.


  This will be station master frequency reference, and will ultimately lock 
stations up to 10 GHz.

Simple answer is to run a clean up oscillator at 100 MHz and then go from 
there. None of the GPSDO's have low enough spurs to really do an excellent jobs 
at 10 GHz.


Bob

Thanks  73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

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Re: [time-nuts] Net4501's cheap...

[Jim Sanford]

Do you have any documentation on how to use them?  I have one that I 
bought to be an internet access point with a verizon card, failed due to 
verizon not complying with the RFCs.  Love the device, but no 
information on ports, etc.  Might want to play with it, or could make it 
available.


Thanks  73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

On 5/19/2013 10:45 AM, Jason Rabel wrote:

Just a heads up, there are some (8+ @ last count) used Soekris Net4501's for 
$29 on eBay (Search for: Soekris)... I submitted a bid
for $20 each and it was instantly accepted... Don't know how low you can go, 
from the description the guy wants to get rid of them
or they are going in the trash. Seems like a good deal if you are looking to 
make a little NTP server, especially compared to the
retail price for a net4501... ;)

I'm not affiliated with the seller in any way, I just love those little 
net4501's...  I already have 5 of them, I don't know why I
just bought 5 more... lol... Now I need more GPS modules!



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[time-nuts] Z3801 10 MHz reference help

[Jim Sanford]

All:
Seeking help with my Z3801. I was referred here by some folks on the 
Microwave reflector.


Background:  It ran very well for several years.  Then, when 
spot-checked on another counter, was found a few Hz away from 
10.0MHz.  Looking at GPSCon, it showed the output to not be enabled, 
and a status or offset word that somebody told me indicated the 
correction was at a maximum extreme, and suggested I looked at 
temperature control circuitry.


I let it sit for a year or two, and have recently gotten back into it.

I have read all the notes I can find on the internet, including KO4BB 
site.  I have the user manual, but have not been able to find a service 
manual, including from the helpful people at HP/Agilent who will dig 
through their paper archives.  Struck out at Symmetricom as well.


Upon power up, a reow of LEDs near the power connection flash red, and 
then the one toward the middle of the board begins flashing green at 
about a 1Hz rate.


Check of all power supply voltages against the diagram on the 
realhamradio.com web site is all good.


Running GPSCon results in serial port timeouts -- no communications 
to/from the unit.  I have verified the serial port settings.  Given the 
vagaries of USB== serial converters these days, I have verified that 
the serial communications does work, using other hardware and programs, 
but the same laptop with which I'm trying to talk to the unit.


I have read the discussion about how the temperature controller is 
supposed to work.  It includes a discussion about the controller getting 
confused and breaking one lead to inject +5 volts through 10K to 
regain control.  The fact that the voltage at TP 104 remains at 16 volts 
(for days) suggests that this may be what is going on. Unfortunately, to 
verify this problem and attempt the fix, I need clarity on the fix, and 
to restore the serial communications, so that I can see the status words.


Any suggestions??

Thanks  73,
Jim
wb4...@amsat.org

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