Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with ExternalReference?

[Mattia Rizzi]

Hi,

>Like most counters, the 53230A has an ext-ref input. But it is horrible.
And the ref output is even worse.

I had similar issues using the internal ref. output of the Agilent 53230A
(with OCXO option installed) connected to the Ext. ref input of the 33220A.
The frequency synthtized by the 33220A had pretty bad ADEV values (measured
by the 53220A).
I solved it by connecting the chassis of both instruments using the rear
earth cable screw of the two instrumens. The ADEV measured was limited by
the counter resolution (see [1] and [2])
If I have time I'll try to do the opposite, use the free-running 33220A as
reference for the ext ref. input of the 53220A. Indeed, some noise inside
53220a may be cancel out due to the setup, but I don't have another counter
with a good reference right now :(

cheers,
Mattia

[1] http://i68.tinypic.com/2ynrmaa.png
[2] http://i67.tinypic.com/hrf15i.png

(Message resent due to antispam, sorry for any duplicated message)

2017-05-09 17:03 GMT+02:00 Tom Van Baak :

> Hi Thomas,
>
> About the 53230A -- like many of us I figured there was no point in buying
> the expensive OCXO versions since I have plenty of good 10 MHz references
> around here. So years ago Keysight loaned me two of them for a month: one
> with, and one without OCXO. Like most counters, the 53230A has an ext-ref
> input. But it is horrible. And the ref output is even worse. I think we've
> discussed this on the list before, including ADEV and PN plots. I decided
> not to buy one, ever, until they fixed the problem.
>
> So it could be a nice counter. Someone at Agilent / Keysight needs to
> re-design the int/ext/mux/pll clock handling of the 53230A; someone who
> understands phase noise and short-term stability; someone who honors the
> intent of ext-ref-in and ref-out; someone who keeps stupid microprocessor /
> LCD / comms / power supply noise out of the clock path. Meanwhile I keep my
> old 53132A's and older SR620's and stay away from the 53230A.
>
> If you have your own measurements, please share. Maybe I just got a bad
> sample, I don't know. But the ext-ref performance smelled like poor
> engineering to me. My hope is that someone on the list will hack a 53230A,
> fix the problem, and share the solution with us, or even with Keysight.
>
> /tvb
>
>
> > Hi All;
> >
> > How important is the standard, medium, or high stability reference in
> counters like the 53230A, or FCA3120 when locked to an ultra low phase
> noise external reference? Particularly when making measurements and
> adjustments on other ultra high performance references?
> >
> > I know Agilent sold 53132A counters with an option (H01 I believe) that
> bypassed the internal reference completely when and external reference is
> applied, but I think standard configuration on most counter is to
> discipline the internal reference.
> >
> > Thanks for your thoughts.
> >
> > Thomas Knox
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with ExternalReference?

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

Thanks for the input. Tom a question, was there any difference between the two 
53230A oscillator when locked to an external reference? I have also experienced 
poor results with my 53230A often showing constant reference errors. Sadly I 
have several each  53230A's Ultra Stab and MCA3027's Med Stab so I cannot 
directly compare oscillator performance. I am trying to reverse engineer the 
Tektronix FCA/MCA counter to determine if there is away to directly feed an 
external reference is a direct reference instead of phase locking the internal 
reference while keeping the rest of the functionality intact, Which appears 
possible on these boxes. It appears U11B send off/on signals from pin 3,4,5 to 
switch between Std3, Oven5, or Rubidium4 internal ref which then provides 10MHz 
signals to U11B pin 204 RB ,205 Std,206 Oven respectively, What sense and 
controls that I have yet to determine, the selection may be in the menu. That 
may allow simple adding a connector and cable to the rear panel. U9A 
 seems to relate PLL and switching. Perhaps the same is possible with the 
53230A. I spoke with a friend Fred Walls today and asked if he though the 
internal reference was much of a factor when Lock to a good external reference 
and he did not thin so.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

Thomas Knox


From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Tom Van Baak 
<t...@leapsecond.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 9:03 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with 
ExternalReference?

Hi Thomas,

About the 53230A -- like many of us I figured there was no point in buying the 
expensive OCXO versions since I have plenty of good 10 MHz references around 
here. So years ago Keysight loaned me two of them for a month: one with, and 
one without OCXO. Like most counters, the 53230A has an ext-ref input. But it 
is horrible. And the ref output is even worse. I think we've discussed this on 
the list before, including ADEV and PN plots. I decided not to buy one, ever, 
until they fixed the problem.

So it could be a nice counter. Someone at Agilent / Keysight needs to re-design 
the int/ext/mux/pll clock handling of the 53230A; someone who understands phase 
noise and short-term stability; someone who honors the intent of ext-ref-in and 
ref-out; someone who keeps stupid microprocessor / LCD / comms / power supply 
noise out of the clock path. Meanwhile I keep my old 53132A's and older SR620's 
and stay away from the 53230A.

If you have your own measurements, please share. Maybe I just got a bad sample, 
I don't know. But the ext-ref performance smelled like poor engineering to me. 
My hope is that someone on the list will hack a 53230A, fix the problem, and 
share the solution with us, or even with Keysight.

/tvb


> Hi All;
>
> How important is the standard, medium, or high stability reference in 
> counters like the 53230A, or FCA3120 when locked to an ultra low phase noise 
> external reference? Particularly when making measurements and adjustments on 
> other ultra high performance references?
>
> I know Agilent sold 53132A counters with an option (H01 I believe) that 
> bypassed the internal reference completely when and external reference is 
> applied, but I think standard configuration on most counter is to discipline 
> the internal reference.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Thomas Knox


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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with External Reference?

[Bruce Griffiths]

CERN have flagged another potential issue with the 53230A in that every so 
often seemingly randomly communications go hawire.

Bruce 

> 
> On 10 May 2017 at 04:46 "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 5/9/2017 12:05 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> >
> 
> > > 
> > I'm sure that modern counters like 53230 are better at this than
> > 
> > > 
> The 53230 oven oscillator option in an inferior oscillator to
> the 10811, by an order of magnitude. So in this case,
> modern != better.
> 
> Rick
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with External Reference?

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 5/9/2017 12:05 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


I'm sure that modern counters like 53230 are better at this than


The 53230 oven oscillator option in an inferior oscillator to
the 10811, by an order of magnitude.  So in this case,
modern != better.

Rick
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with ExternalReference?

[Tom Van Baak]

Hi Thomas,

About the 53230A -- like many of us I figured there was no point in buying the 
expensive OCXO versions since I have plenty of good 10 MHz references around 
here. So years ago Keysight loaned me two of them for a month: one with, and 
one without OCXO. Like most counters, the 53230A has an ext-ref input. But it 
is horrible. And the ref output is even worse. I think we've discussed this on 
the list before, including ADEV and PN plots. I decided not to buy one, ever, 
until they fixed the problem.

So it could be a nice counter. Someone at Agilent / Keysight needs to re-design 
the int/ext/mux/pll clock handling of the 53230A; someone who understands phase 
noise and short-term stability; someone who honors the intent of ext-ref-in and 
ref-out; someone who keeps stupid microprocessor / LCD / comms / power supply 
noise out of the clock path. Meanwhile I keep my old 53132A's and older SR620's 
and stay away from the 53230A.

If you have your own measurements, please share. Maybe I just got a bad sample, 
I don't know. But the ext-ref performance smelled like poor engineering to me. 
My hope is that someone on the list will hack a 53230A, fix the problem, and 
share the solution with us, or even with Keysight.

/tvb


> Hi All;
> 
> How important is the standard, medium, or high stability reference in 
> counters like the 53230A, or FCA3120 when locked to an ultra low phase noise 
> external reference? Particularly when making measurements and adjustments on 
> other ultra high performance references?
> 
> I know Agilent sold 53132A counters with an option (H01 I believe) that 
> bypassed the internal reference completely when and external reference is 
> applied, but I think standard configuration on most counter is to discipline 
> the internal reference.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts.
> 
> Thomas Knox


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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with External Reference?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <54ee7bdd-0a49-cc49-540d-2812e70dd...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus 
Danielson writes:

>Wither it is proper side bands or other systematic noise, it is bad 
>indeed, [...]

It's more subtle than that, it can be things like thresholds in
the counters trigger being sensitive to the phase of the internal
clock because of (very slight) cross-talk.

I reported data on this a couple of years ago, as I recall my setup
were something like this:

House-10MHz --> HP3336C clk-in and HP5370B clk-in.

HP3336C output -> HP5370B start then 3m coax then HP5370B stop.

Measure TI(start->stop), for different settings of output phase angle on the 
HP3336C.

Theoretically that plot should be a flat line.

In practice it is not even close.

I think I convinced myself that the majority of the problem was trigger-noise 
the HP5370B,
but my notes are not accessible at this time.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with External Reference?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Poul-Henning,

On 05/09/2017 02:39 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message <60c74d75-41e5-7112-d8b6-721664b89...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus 
Danielson writes:


Indeed. On the other hand some measurements is hard not to do that way.
One should think about how isolation is created if needed, and this
includes AC and DC, common mode and differential mode. Isolation
amplifier should be part of the arsenal.


EMI is part of it, but there raw synchronism is a significant
source of systematic errors because the "noise" is no longer
gaussian.



Wither it is proper side bands or other systematic noise, it is bad 
indeed, that would be part of the RF differential mode disturbances.
This assumes the source is "clean", and if it is not it should not be 
used to start with. What remains is really issues from the setup, and 
that's when signal integrity/EMI care and isolation amplifiers comes in.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with External Reference?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

In HP5370A/B you mux sources. In SR620 there is a lockup PLL, as far as 
I remember.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 05/09/2017 01:11 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

If you grab the schematic of pretty much any of these counters, you find a 
fairly common approach.
Somewhere inside is a VHF oscillator. The internal TCXO, OCXO, or Rb acts as a 
phase lock source
for that VHF oscillator. Typical PLL bandwidths are pretty low (10’s of Hz). 
When you put in an external
reference, it acts as the reference to the same PLL.

This does a couple of things. You take care of spurs on the external reference. 
That is the same
thing you do locking up a VHF oscillator to your GPSD for microwave work. You 
get the long term
accuracy (1 second and out) of the external reference. Your phase noise (and 
thus broadband mask
jitter) is improved.

Does every counter on the planet work this way? - of course not. Somewhere 
somebody did it a
different way. As long as they *did* do it this way, the internal reference 
does not matter once you
switch to an external standard. Even if they did it in some other way, if they 
did it right, the same
statement would apply.

Bob


On May 8, 2017, at 9:02 PM, Tom Knox  wrote:

Hi All;

How important is the standard, medium, or high stability reference in counters 
like the 53230A, or FCA3120 when locked to an ultra low phase noise external 
reference? Particularly when making measurements and adjustments on other ultra 
high performance references?

I know Agilent sold 53132A counters with an option (H01 I believe) that 
bypassed the internal reference completely when and external reference is 
applied, but I think standard configuration on most counter is to discipline 
the internal reference.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Thomas Knox

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with External Reference?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <60c74d75-41e5-7112-d8b6-721664b89...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus 
Danielson writes:

>Indeed. On the other hand some measurements is hard not to do that way.
>One should think about how isolation is created if needed, and this 
>includes AC and DC, common mode and differential mode. Isolation 
>amplifier should be part of the arsenal.

EMI is part of it, but there raw synchronism is a significant
source of systematic errors because the "noise" is no longer
gaussian.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with External Reference?

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

If you grab the schematic of pretty much any of these counters, you find a 
fairly common approach. 
Somewhere inside is a VHF oscillator. The internal TCXO, OCXO, or Rb acts as a 
phase lock source
for that VHF oscillator. Typical PLL bandwidths are pretty low (10’s of Hz). 
When you put in an external
reference, it acts as the reference to the same PLL. 

This does a couple of things. You take care of spurs on the external reference. 
That is the same 
thing you do locking up a VHF oscillator to your GPSD for microwave work. You 
get the long term
accuracy (1 second and out) of the external reference. Your phase noise (and 
thus broadband mask
jitter) is improved. 

Does every counter on the planet work this way? - of course not. Somewhere 
somebody did it a 
different way. As long as they *did* do it this way, the internal reference 
does not matter once you 
switch to an external standard. Even if they did it in some other way, if they 
did it right, the same 
statement would apply. 

Bob 

> On May 8, 2017, at 9:02 PM, Tom Knox  wrote:
> 
> Hi All;
> 
> How important is the standard, medium, or high stability reference in 
> counters like the 53230A, or FCA3120 when locked to an ultra low phase noise 
> external reference? Particularly when making measurements and adjustments on 
> other ultra high performance references?
> 
> I know Agilent sold 53132A counters with an option (H01 I believe) that 
> bypassed the internal reference completely when and external reference is 
> applied, but I think standard configuration on most counter is to discipline 
> the internal reference.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts.
> 
> Thomas Knox
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with External Reference?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 05/09/2017 09:05 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message , Magnus 
Danielson writes:


Also, there is a reason that you can buy different internal oscillators,
this is one of them. For labs with their frequency distribution there is
no need to waste money on stand-alone performance.


Please don't forget that running the counter of the same signal as
the circuits being measured runs the risk of masking noise processes.


Indeed. On the other hand some measurements is hard not to do that way.
One should think about how isolation is created if needed, and this 
includes AC and DC, common mode and differential mode. Isolation 
amplifier should be part of the arsenal.



I'm sure that modern counters like 53230 are better at this than
the 5370, but you should always sanity-check your measurements
using the counters internal, undisturbed timebase.


Indeed. When you think you have a risc of disturbance, please do 
measurements to verify the setup.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with External Reference?

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message , Magnus 
Danielson writes:

>Also, there is a reason that you can buy different internal oscillators, 
>this is one of them. For labs with their frequency distribution there is 
>no need to waste money on stand-alone performance.

Please don't forget that running the counter of the same signal as
the circuits being measured runs the risk of masking noise processes.

I'm sure that modern counters like 53230 are better at this than
the 5370, but you should always sanity-check your measurements
using the counters internal, undisturbed timebase.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with External Reference?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Tom!

On 05/09/2017 03:02 AM, Tom Knox wrote:

Hi All;

How important is the standard, medium, or high stability reference in counters 
like the 53230A, or FCA3120 when locked to an ultra low phase noise external 
reference? Particularly when making measurements and adjustments on other ultra 
high performance references?

I know Agilent sold 53132A counters with an option (H01 I believe) that 
bypassed the internal reference completely when and external reference is 
applied, but I think standard configuration on most counter is to discipline 
the internal reference.

Thanks for your thoughts.


When you provide an external reference, the long term stability becomes 
relatively unimportant. Let's view the two cases:


1) Bypass internal oscillator: If you bypass the internal oscillator and 
always supply an external oscillator, don't waste money on the internal 
reference, it has no use.


2) Lock internal oscillator: If the oscillator is PLL steered, the short 
term noise, i.e. phase-noise, is of relevance, but the long-term only 
cares in the aspect that you can maintain lock, and you can probably 
trim the oscillator to every 5 years to ensure lock, but other than that 
you don't need to waste mony on it. If the phase noise is an issue, you 
could possibly see that in the datahseet/performance spec, but for all I 
have seen, only long term performance is given, so I'd say that you 
should not waste your money there either.


So, unless it will operate as a stand-alone, don't waste money on 
internal reference.


Also, there is a reason that you can buy different internal oscillators, 
this is one of them. For labs with their frequency distribution there is 
no need to waste money on stand-alone performance.


Look at the HP5335A for instance. Standard performance is an XO, and you 
need to trim that regularly to have any kind of performance. The high 
stability option is a 10811. That is quite a jump in performance.


Cheers,
Magnus
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[time-nuts] Counter Internal Oscillator Importance with External Reference?

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

How important is the standard, medium, or high stability reference in counters 
like the 53230A, or FCA3120 when locked to an ultra low phase noise external 
reference? Particularly when making measurements and adjustments on other ultra 
high performance references?

I know Agilent sold 53132A counters with an option (H01 I believe) that 
bypassed the internal reference completely when and external reference is 
applied, but I think standard configuration on most counter is to discipline 
the internal reference.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Thomas Knox

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter?

[Heinz Breuer]

The E1T tube was introduced in 1954. I have a few which I got at swapmeets. 
I also have a counter based on this tube. Unfortunately it is not complete.
regards
Heinz DH2FA, KM5VT




Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 19.02.2016 um 18:22 schrieb "Thomas Allgeier" <th.allge...@gmail.com>:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> An interesting find, but not as old as advertised: Friesecke & Hoepfner only 
> moved to Erlangen-Bruck after WW2, in or around 1949. During the war they 
> were in Berlin I think. They made quite a range of stuff, one of their main 
> post-war activities was radioactivity measurements i.e. counters.
> The thing looks 1960's to me. Not sure if it is worth 3000 bucks, though.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Thomas.
> 
> 
> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:32:09 +0100 (CET)
> From: "iov...@inwind.it" <iov...@inwind.it>
> To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] Counter?
> Message-ID:
> <1178303383.10543371455834729338.javamail.ht...@webmail-46.iol.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> This tube type item on ebay is equipped with E1T high speed decade counting 
> tubes.
> 222022951573
> 
> I'm not affiliated,  etc...
> Antonio i8iov
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

It depends on just how closely you define the term. Simple answer WWII military 
gear for the principle (all glass etc). For the exact dimensions and pin sizes. 
Post WWII 
TV sets.

Bob

> On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
> 
> th.allge...@gmail.com said:
>> An interesting find, but not as old as advertised: Friesecke & Hoepfner only
>> moved to Erlangen-Bruck after WW2, in or around 1949.  ...
> 
> When were 7 and 9 pin tubes first used?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter?

[Hal Murray]

th.allge...@gmail.com said:
> An interesting find, but not as old as advertised: Friesecke & Hoepfner only
>  moved to Erlangen-Bruck after WW2, in or around 1949.  ...

When were 7 and 9 pin tubes first used?




-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Counter?

[Thomas Allgeier]

Hi All,

An interesting find, but not as old as advertised: Friesecke & Hoepfner only 
moved to Erlangen-Bruck after WW2, in or around 1949. During the war they 
were in Berlin I think. They made quite a range of stuff, one of their main 
post-war activities was radioactivity measurements i.e. counters.

The thing looks 1960's to me. Not sure if it is worth 3000 bucks, though.

Kind regards,
Thomas.


Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:32:09 +0100 (CET)
From: "iov...@inwind.it" <iov...@inwind.it>
To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: [time-nuts] Counter?
Message-ID:
<1178303383.10543371455834729338.javamail.ht...@webmail-46.iol.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

This tube type item on ebay is equipped with E1T high speed decade counting 
tubes.

222022951573

I'm not affiliated,  etc...
Antonio i8iov



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[time-nuts] Counter?

[iovane--- via time-nuts]

This tube type item on ebay is equipped with E1T high speed decade counting 
tubes.
222022951573

I'm not affiliated,  etc...
Antonio i8iov

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[time-nuts] Counter Clock freq lock advice

[lstoskopf]

Back from Dayton and found in my mailbox a PLJ-9VFD-A9 digit frequency 
counter block.  Fresh from eBay.  Very nice piece of gear for about $20.  It 
has a 13 MHz voltage controlled time base marked 1300446 TW 499K.  Pin out 
seems standard and the Voltage Control on pin 1 simply goes to a (I think) an 
8K pot to ground and a 22K resistor to the power buss.  Two terminals on mine 
are to ground and one to the control line so guessing that it simply is tweaked 
(or not) to max R.  

So it should be conceptually easy to pull off the 13 MHz signal, divide down to 
1 MHz, do the same with my 10 MHz GPS line running in the shack and do PLL 
control.

Or simply turn off the oscillator enable line and use something like the TAPR 
clock block for the 13 MHz signal.  At this price I could run a 13 MHz cable 
around the shack so I prefer that approach.

Thanks for your comment.

N0UU

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter averaging errors near clock harmonics

[Magnus Danielson]

Charles.

On 04/10/2015 09:27 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:

The subject of errors in averaging counters at input frequencies near
the clock frequency and its subharmonics and harmonics comes up on the
list from time to time.  There is a nice discussion of the phenomenon,
and how it was addressed in the design of the HP 5345A counter, in the
June, 1974 issue of the Hewlett-Packard Journal:

David C. Chu, Time Interval Averaging: Theory, Problems, and
Solutions, HP Journal v25 n10, June 1974

www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1974-06.pdf


Good point. This technique is also used in the HP5328A, but only for TI 
averaging, not for frequency measurement.


Cheers,
Magnus
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[time-nuts] Counter averaging errors near clock harmonics

[Charles Steinmetz]

The subject of errors in averaging counters at input frequencies near 
the clock frequency and its subharmonics and harmonics comes up on 
the list from time to time.  There is a nice discussion of the 
phenomenon, and how it was addressed in the design of the HP 5345A 
counter, in the June, 1974 issue of the Hewlett-Packard Journal:


David C. Chu, Time Interval Averaging: Theory, Problems, and 
Solutions, HP Journal v25 n10, June 1974


www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1974-06.pdf

Best regards,

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[Fabio Eboli]

Il 2013-01-14 22:15 Charles P. Steinmetz ha scritto:


Because the oscillators are sealed assemblies, I'm not aware of
anyone who has taken one apart for analysis -- so the reason for this
behavior must be considered unknown until we know what is going on
inside.


By the way, there is a non working unit on ebay
in US just now, 58h to auction end.
If it was in EU I would have picked it up just
for dissection. Unfortunately for me shipping
charges are a little high for an autopsy:
ebay #251211816860



Best regards,

Charles


Fabio.

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[David C. Partridge]

Yes the 1992 4E adjustment is a bear. Mine behaves pretty much the same, ISTR 
it took me a few days to get it adjusted to my satisfaction and it was still 
drifting a bit.

Interestingly I saw a 1992 with a built in Rb on eBay (I think in France) some 
years back but the price went way beyong my budget.

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Fabio Eboli
Sent: 14 January 2013 23:09
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

I answer here to all, thank Ed David and Charles for your thoughts.
David, LOL, you posted the pic of the exact counter in question.
Not a similar unit, I mean it's exactly *that* 1992 that is being measured ;)


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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[Robert LaJeunesse]

re ebay #251211816860 the seller is one I've dealt with a few times before, and 
had excellent service. I would not hesitate to deal with them again. 

FWIW according to the US Post Office web site a 1 pound package to Italy ships 
for $11.60. 

Bob L.


- Original Message 
 From: Fabio Eboli fabi...@quipo.it
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Tue, January 15, 2013 9:21:21 AM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour
 
 By the  way, there is a non working unit on ebay
 in US just now, 58h to auction  end.
 If it was in EU I would have picked it up just
 for dissection.  Unfortunately for me shipping
 charges are a little high for an  autopsy:
 ebay #251211816860
 
 Fabio.

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[Fabio Eboli]

Robert,
I asked the seller for the least expensive way to
send that OCXO here (nothing to lose on a marginal
packaging, let's assume the item is non working)
and he quoted 12USD. I think I must refrain
from spending 20USD (assuming I will be the only
bidder) for a device to be dissected, althoug
I've done worse things with my ebay account :)

If it was a working OCXO I would have happily
bought it, but thinking about it I would not
dissect a working OCXO, for me it would be a crime :)

I will see if he has something interesting (and light)
in other items he listed, maybe I could share shipping
cost between items.

Il 2013-01-15 15:34 Robert LaJeunesse ha scritto:
re ebay #251211816860 the seller is one I've dealt with a few times 
before, and

had excellent service. I would not hesitate to deal with them again.

FWIW according to the US Post Office web site a 1 pound package to 
Italy ships

for $11.60.

Bob L.




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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[Fabio Eboli]

Il 2013-01-15 15:31 David C. Partridge ha scritto:

Yes the 1992 4E adjustment is a bear. Mine behaves pretty much the
same, ISTR it took me a few days to get it adjusted to my 
satisfaction

and it was still drifting a bit.


The strange thing is that mine now is changing frequency at
more than 1x10^-10 per day, measuring a 10MHz reference
this would be one digit per day, but before it was steady
on last digit for long time intervals, last digit moved up
and down only with day/night temperature variation.
Is it possible that the OCO was sealed by so much time,
opening it I changed the internal equilibrium? (humidity?).



Interestingly I saw a 1992 with a built in Rb on eBay (I think in
France) some years back but the price went way beyong my budget.


I've about this on this list, option 04R:
http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2011-November/060516.html

Fabio.

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[Robert LaJeunesse]

Fabio,

I'm glad to see that their shipping charge is fair. Turns out it is only about 
a 
dollar more than the shipping to my place here in the states.

I did notice that the schematic for the oscillator's small PCB, the 5MHz to 
10MHz doubler, is on KO4BB's site (page 22 of the PDF):
http://www.ko4bb.com/Manuals/Racal/Racal-Dana_1991-1992-ServiceManualSch.pdf

Makes me wonder if the oscillator is good, but the doubler has failed. If so, 
the unit might be easily salvageable. As for what's in the sealed can, here's 
hoping you end up with one, somehow, at a cost you are happy with.

Bob


- Original Message 
 From: Fabio Eboli fabi...@quipo.it
 To: Robert LaJeunesse lajeune...@mail.com; Discussion of precise time and 
frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Tue, January 15, 2013 10:04:37 AM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour
 
 Robert,
 I asked the seller for the least expensive way to
 send that OCXO  here (nothing to lose on a marginal
 packaging, let's assume the item is non  working)
 and he quoted 12USD. I think I must refrain
 from spending 20USD  (assuming I will be the only
 bidder) for a device to be dissected,  althoug
 I've done worse things with my ebay account :)
 
 If it was a  working OCXO I would have happily
 bought it, but thinking about it I would  not
 dissect a working OCXO, for me it would be a crime :)
 
 I will see  if he has something interesting (and light)
 in other items he listed, maybe I  could share shipping
 cost between items.
 
 Il 2013-01-15 15:34 Robert  LaJeunesse ha scritto:
  re ebay #251211816860 the seller is one I've  dealt with a few times 
  before, 
and
  had excellent service. I would not  hesitate to deal with them again.
  
  FWIW according to the US Post  Office web site a 1 pound package to Italy 
ships
  for $11.60.
  
  Bob L.

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[time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[Fabio Eboli]

Hello,
recently I tried to trim the Racal Dana
1992 04E internal reference, using the
GPS pps as a reference. I'd like to ask
a pair of questions...

- First is about the method.
I'm using the counter TI to measure it's
own OCXO. The GPS is starting the count,
the internal reference 10MHz (on the rear
there is a reference output connector)
stops the count and I log the result
as I've done before with other oscillators.
Is this a correct procedure?

- Second, is about the behaviour of the OCXO
after trimming. The OCXO seem not that stable
after the trimming, like if the crystal started
to age faster than before trimming, and now is
slowly stabilizing.
It's like the retrace of the crystals I've read
about, but the instrument was never powered down
in the last month. And it's oven has been on for
the last year. Will a crystal retrace also
after retrimming?
The frequency of the crystal is slowing, in the
first hours after the trimming rapidly, and now
more slowly. After few days the frequency seem
to be slowing somewhere around 1x10^-10 per day.
Unfortunately I havent logged the counter for
enough time before the trimming, but it measured
the same Rb with less than 3 digits of difference
(3x10^-10) in last 6 monthes.

Thanks,
Fabio.

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[Ed Breya]

Is it manually adjusted right at the oscillator? If so, just opening it 
up and sticking a screwdriver in there gives it a thermal shock, and the 
adjusted element will have mechanical stress that has to settle out too 
- the value can change for a while.


Ed

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[David]

The Racal Dana 1991/1992 OCXO has a big pair of pan head screws
exposed on the back.  One is coarse adjust and one is fine adjust.  I
have the TCXO version which also exposes the adjustment on the back so
you do not have to open anything to get to it.

You can see them here:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/racal-dana-1992-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=20937;image;PHPSESSID=a5230a2beafd27b99c07580940fe1574

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:34:04 -0800, Ed Breya e...@telight.com wrote:

Is it manually adjusted right at the oscillator? If so, just opening it 
up and sticking a screwdriver in there gives it a thermal shock, and the 
adjusted element will have mechanical stress that has to settle out too 
- the value can change for a while.

Ed

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[David]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:14:23 +0100, Fabio Eboli fabi...@quipo.it
wrote:

Hello,
recently I tried to trim the Racal Dana
1992 04E internal reference, using the
GPS pps as a reference. I'd like to ask
a pair of questions...

- First is about the method.
I'm using the counter TI to measure it's
own OCXO. The GPS is starting the count,
the internal reference 10MHz (on the rear
there is a reference output connector)
stops the count and I log the result
as I've done before with other oscillators.
Is this a correct procedure?

I just measured the GPS pulse output directly with the counter.  I got
the same calibration results measuring frequency or period.  With time
interval, I used the delay feature to set the minimum measurement
duration.

- Second, is about the behaviour of the OCXO
after trimming. The OCXO seem not that stable
after the trimming, like if the crystal started
to age faster than before trimming, and now is
slowly stabilizing.
It's like the retrace of the crystals I've read
about, but the instrument was never powered down
in the last month. And it's oven has been on for
the last year. Will a crystal retrace also
after retrimming?
The frequency of the crystal is slowing, in the
first hours after the trimming rapidly, and now
more slowly. After few days the frequency seem
to be slowing somewhere around 1x10^-10 per day.
Unfortunately I havent logged the counter for
enough time before the trimming, but it measured
the same Rb with less than 3 digits of difference
(3x10^-10) in last 6 monthes.

My 1992 has the TCXO and I noticed the least significant digit
drifting after trimming.  At least with the 1992 TCXO, I decided the
last digit was not worth worrying about which is pretty much the case
with all of my other counters although my 1992 is about the best of my
bunch.

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

Ed wrote:

Is it manually adjusted right at the oscillator? If so, just opening 
it up and sticking a screwdriver in there gives it a thermal shock, 
and the adjusted element will have mechanical stress that has to 
settle out too - the value can change for a while.


The 04E standard used in the military surplus 1992s (which are by far 
the most common 1992s in the US) is typically labeled 9462 454879, 
Rev. A.  There has been a fair bit of discussion on the list about 
these -- a search of the archive will turn up a number of threads.


Yes, they do tend to take a long while to settle after 
adjustment.  So long, in fact -- and with oscillatory gyrations above 
and below the starting frequency -- that I have speculated on-list 
that the adjustment may not be a direct adjustment of the tuned 
circuit (e.g., with the usual capacitor on the crystal), but rather 
an adjustment to the oven controller setting the crystal temperature.


Because the oscillators are sealed assemblies, I'm not aware of 
anyone who has taken one apart for analysis -- so the reason for this 
behavior must be considered unknown until we know what is going on inside.


Best regards,

Charles





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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[Fabio Eboli]

I answer here to all, thank Ed David and Charles for your thoughts.
David, LOL, you posted the pic of the exact counter in question.
Not a similar unit, I mean it's exactly *that* 1992 that is being
measured ;)

The pictures on eevblog show the early measurements I made with
the counter. One of the Rb wasmeasured to about 10MHz+60mHz.
After a while (I think a pair of monthes) the reading was slightly
over 10MHz+70mHz and remained there for more than 6 monthes, until
I trimmed the counter few days ago.

The trimming is very touchy, and the simple opening of the screw on
the rear is traumatic: the frequency rises for a pair of minutes and
then it takes a while to return to the previous level.

Talking about this OCXO, how much is it good?
I mean for who has eperience with many OCXO is
this a good unit, or it's an average one?
Is this the kind of stability and reaction that can
be expected by an OCXO useful for GPSDO (less the
EFC control of course)?

Measuring this OCXO, just now I'm starting to feel the precision
of the FE5680, or 5682. It's so easy to set the Rb to follow
GPS closely for days...

I have some pics of the measurements I made, they are a little messy,
I hope can be fun and interesting to see:

This was before touching anything, top right the phase between
the GPS and OCXO:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14336723@N08/8382126024/
it was slow by about 7x10^-9. This was the first trim attempt:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14336723@N08/8382125734/
and this the last trims, the dips in phase are evident, they
happen when I open the calibration screw on the rear:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14336723@N08/8381043177/
and at last these are logged after last trim action:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14336723@N08/8381044033/

I tried to extract more data from last log:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14336723@N08/8382126108/
Here I made the first and second derivative in time of the phase,
data are heavily averaged, so are not very accurate. The
10MHz period error (vs. GPS) changed from -0.8x10^-10 soon after
the trim, to +1x10^-10 after two days (top right).
The OCXO period was rising from almost 2x10^-15 soon after the
trim to 1.3x10^-15 after two days (bottom left).
Seem the stabilization will take a while...

Fabio.


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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[Fabio Eboli]

Il 2013-01-15 00:08 Fabio Eboli ha scritto:

Trying to be more clear:


10MHz period error (vs. GPS) changed from -0.8x10^-10 soon after
the trim, to +1x10^-10 after two days (top right).


Top right is change of phase in time, i.e. period error
measured using GPS as reference.


The OCXO period was rising from almost 2x10^-15 soon after the
trim to 1.3x10^-15 after two days (bottom left).


Bottom left is change of period error in time,
1.3x10^-15 per second is around 1.1x10^-10 per day,
if I'm not mistaken, more than typical unit's aging
stated by datasheet.


Seem the stabilization will take a while...

Fabio.


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[time-nuts] Counter

[shalimr9]

Is shipped, tracking number
1Z30VR960337713831
due Wednesday

Didier

Sent from my Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker.

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter

[dlewis6767]

Thanks, Didier, if you ever find a mainframe for it, please keep me in 
mind.


Thanks, -Don




--
From: shali...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 11:23 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Subject: [time-nuts] Counter



Is shipped, tracking number
1Z30VR960337713831
due Wednesday

Didier

Sent from my Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker.

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and follow the instructions there. 



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Re: [time-nuts] Counter

[Didier Juges]

Well, that obviously went to the wrong place.
That was a private message, sorry for the bandwidth.

Didier


On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 12:06 PM, dlewis6767 dlewis6...@austin.rr.comwrote:

 Thanks, Didier, if you ever find a mainframe for it, please keep me in
 mind.

 Thanks, -Don




 --**
 From: shali...@gmail.com
 Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 11:23 AM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] Counter


 Is shipped, tracking number
 1Z30VR960337713831
 due Wednesday

 Didier

 Sent from my Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker.

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 mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



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 mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Don Latham]

Would that be FPGAconf? It's still mentioned in the documentation and
seems to be a kind of bitfile loader. There's no mention of a requirement
to use it, but it may be necessary. Docs mention Altera or Xilinx packages
and a c++ compiler as necessary.
I just skimmed the document.
Don

 in business at all tells me that the requirement to run the configuration
 .exe is probably no longer in effect.

 -- john, KE5FX


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-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] counter

[John Miles]

I think that's what it was called, yes.  There was a console version and a
GUI version, both closed-source.  Hopefully they also provide a linkable
library by now; that's what you'd want to ask about.

The Xylo board I was looking at didn't have a large EEPROM attached to its
USB chip, so the loader was required to program the 8051 core on the USB
chip and send the bitfile across to it.  So there are two separate rabbit
holes to explore if you want to base a standalone design on that particular
board.

-- john, KE5FX

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]On
 Behalf Of Don Latham
 Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:04 AM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter


 Would that be FPGAconf? It's still mentioned in the documentation and
 seems to be a kind of bitfile loader. There's no mention of a requirement
 to use it, but it may be necessary. Docs mention Altera or Xilinx packages
 and a c++ compiler as necessary.
 I just skimmed the document.
 Don

  in business at all tells me that the requirement to run the
 configuration
  .exe is probably no longer in effect.
 
  -- john, KE5FX
 
 
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  and follow the instructions there.
 


 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] counter

[cook michael]

Not that the decks are cleared for this project yet. Heck, my picII's
aren't built or programmed.

Speaking of PICTIC II's. Great project, but I had originally decided not 
to go that route as list members were indicating that 5370Bs were to be 
picked up for 200 bucks. Not so in France I am afraid.  I have not been 
able to find anything under 5 times that over here.  Does anyone know if 
any boards are still available? I checked the mouser project and most 
parts seems available as I type. Only a serial driver unavailable, but I 
have plenty of those. Are any other parts needed that are not on that 
project list?


thx. Mike



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Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Rex]

On 1/30/2011 12:33 AM, cook michael wrote:
as list members were indicating that 5370Bs were to be picked up for 
200 bucks. Not so in France I am afraid.  I have not been able to find 
anything under 5 times that over here. 


I questioned that, relative to my experience. Miracles do happen, but 
years of watching and possibly one or more bad gambles along the way may 
not work for all of us. Nice to see a note of reality.




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Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Don Latham]

Seems right, John. For just a little more, the other units you recommended
might be better. Still a lot of programming work to do, but implementing a
simple counter/period measurement might not be too bad. I've never
programmed an FPGA, so have no idea of the practicalities of really
accomplishing anything...I have an Ettus Research USRP1 sitting here that
I need to get going as well. There is not enough time in this world.
Either that, or I need some serious time management skills. :-)

Don

John Miles
 I think that's what it was called, yes.  There was a console version and a
 GUI version, both closed-source.  Hopefully they also provide a linkable
 library by now; that's what you'd want to ask about.

 The Xylo board I was looking at didn't have a large EEPROM attached to its
 USB chip, so the loader was required to program the 8051 core on the USB
 chip and send the bitfile across to it.  So there are two separate rabbit
 holes to explore if you want to base a standalone design on that
 particular
 board.

 -- john, KE5FX

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]On
 Behalf Of Don Latham
 Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:04 AM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter


 Would that be FPGAconf? It's still mentioned in the documentation and
 seems to be a kind of bitfile loader. There's no mention of a
 requirement
 to use it, but it may be necessary. Docs mention Altera or Xilinx
 packages
 and a c++ compiler as necessary.
 I just skimmed the document.
 Don

  in business at all tells me that the requirement to run the
 configuration
  .exe is probably no longer in effect.
 
  -- john, KE5FX
 
 
  ___
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to
  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 


 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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 and follow the instructions there.



-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Stanley Reynolds]

Yes, boards and parts, please email me off list.
Stanley



snip
Speaking of PICTIC II's. Great project, but I had originally decided not to go 
that route as list members were indicating that 5370Bs were to be picked up for 
200 bucks. Not so in France I am afraid.  I have not been able to find anything 
under 5 times that over here.  Does anyone know if any boards are still 
available? I checked the mouser project and most parts seems available as I 
type. Only a serial driver unavailable, but I have plenty of those. Are any 
other parts needed that are not on that project list?

thx. Mike



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Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Tristan Steele]

Hi Don,

At the risk of speaking out of turn, and not knowing too much about this
project (I'm new here!) have you considered something like these boards:

http://www.gadgetfactory.net/index.php?main_page=indexcPath=1zenid=d282dce6c5b0acfe45c1377315b2734c

They use the Spartan 3E chips, like alot of low cost FPGA boards and also
they expose the JTAG headers.  I'm unsure of the license of the current
programming software but it is likely to be pretty hack-friendly as the
board designs themselves are released under creative commons.

They are designed for use with the Arduino project and a soft core, though
this is certainly not required.  I've been looking at them as a nice, low
cost FPGA board that is pretty configurable.

I have no affiliation with the site, other then being a prospective
customer.  I also haven't bought any of them yet, so I haven't actually
tested them

Just my $0.02,

Tristan

On 30 January 2011 17:28, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 With regard to the home-brew counter project, if it still exists:

 From friend Marcus Leech on another list:

 Don't know whether you've seen these:

 http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_USB2.html

 $79.95 for the low-end board, which includes and FX2, and a small
 Cyclone FPGA.  Pretty good
  value.

 Thanks, Marcus. this looks like the very thing, just need the front end

 Don




 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Don Latham]

They look interesting, Tristan. Gee, nobody's in charge of this, I'm not
sure it's even a project at this point, and AFIK there's no out of turn
:-). I too like the Arduino, in fact I've settled on them or the Propeller
for projects if I can, so the boards you propose may work just fine.
Don

Tristan Steele
 Hi Don,

 At the risk of speaking out of turn, and not knowing too much about this
 project (I'm new here!) have you considered something like these boards:

 http://www.gadgetfactory.net/index.php?main_page=indexcPath=1zenid=d282dce6c5b0acfe45c1377315b2734c

 They use the Spartan 3E chips, like alot of low cost FPGA boards and also
 they expose the JTAG headers.  I'm unsure of the license of the current
 programming software but it is likely to be pretty hack-friendly as the
 board designs themselves are released under creative commons.

 They are designed for use with the Arduino project and a soft core, though
 this is certainly not required.  I've been looking at them as a nice, low
 cost FPGA board that is pretty configurable.

 I have no affiliation with the site, other then being a prospective
 customer.  I also haven't bought any of them yet, so I haven't actually
 tested them

 Just my $0.02,

 Tristan

 On 30 January 2011 17:28, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 With regard to the home-brew counter project, if it still exists:

 From friend Marcus Leech on another list:

 Don't know whether you've seen these:

 http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_USB2.html

 $79.95 for the low-end board, which includes and FX2, and a small
 Cyclone FPGA.  Pretty good
  value.

 Thanks, Marcus. this looks like the very thing, just need the front
 end

 Don




 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Tijd Dingen]

I'd like to second John's suggestion to go with the Nexys2. As far as I'm
concerned it has pretty good value for money.

Regarding the standalone use, it has a configuration prom that you can use.
That way it will automatically load your design on powerup, without needing
a programmer every time.

And regarding the programming tools, the digilent adept plugin for xilinx ise
works pretty well. It used to only work under windows but these days the linux
version also works. So you can program it directly using iMPACT, or command
line tools for those who prefer a Makefile.

regards,
Fred




- Original Message 
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 6:02:57 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter

Seems right, John. For just a little more, the other units you recommended
might be better. Still a lot of programming work to do, but implementing a
simple counter/period measurement might not be too bad. I've never
programmed an FPGA, so have no idea of the practicalities of really
accomplishing anything...I have an Ettus Research USRP1 sitting here that
I need to get going as well. There is not enough time in this world.
Either that, or I need some serious time management skills. :-)

Don

John Miles
 I think that's what it was called, yes.  There was a console version and a
 GUI version, both closed-source.  Hopefully they also provide a linkable
 library by now; that's what you'd want to ask about.

 The Xylo board I was looking at didn't have a large EEPROM attached to its
 USB chip, so the loader was required to program the 8051 core on the USB
 chip and send the bitfile across to it.  So there are two separate rabbit
 holes to explore if you want to base a standalone design on that
 particular
 board.

 -- john, KE5FX

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]On
 Behalf Of Don Latham
 Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:04 AM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter


 Would that be FPGAconf? It's still mentioned in the documentation and
 seems to be a kind of bitfile loader. There's no mention of a
 requirement
 to use it, but it may be necessary. Docs mention Altera or Xilinx
 packages
 and a c++ compiler as necessary.
 I just skimmed the document.
 Don

  in business at all tells me that the requirement to run the
 configuration
  .exe is probably no longer in effect.
 
  -- john, KE5FX
 
 
  ___
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to
  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 


 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



  

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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Tijd Dingen]

On that note, does anyone know if this counter project is still active? Some
time ago I asked about this, but never got a reply. Maybe the e-mail got
eaten by a spam filter, or maybe I just didn't ask nice enough, I don't 
know. ;-

If there is still an active project, I'd be interested. If not, I'll just
keep doing my own fpga based counter thing.

regards,
Fred




- Original Message 
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 1:51:45 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter

They look interesting, Tristan. Gee, nobody's in charge of this, I'm not
sure it's even a project at this point, and AFIK there's no out of turn
:-). I too like the Arduino, in fact I've settled on them or the Propeller
for projects if I can, so the boards you propose may work just fine.
Don

Tristan Steele
 Hi Don,

 At the risk of speaking out of turn, and not knowing too much about this
 project (I'm new here!) have you considered something like these boards:

http://www.gadgetfactory.net/index.php?main_page=indexcPath=1zenid=d282dce6c5b0acfe45c1377315b2734c
c

 They use the Spartan 3E chips, like alot of low cost FPGA boards and also
 they expose the JTAG headers.  I'm unsure of the license of the current
 programming software but it is likely to be pretty hack-friendly as the
 board designs themselves are released under creative commons.

 They are designed for use with the Arduino project and a soft core, though
 this is certainly not required.  I've been looking at them as a nice, low
 cost FPGA board that is pretty configurable.

 I have no affiliation with the site, other then being a prospective
 customer.  I also haven't bought any of them yet, so I haven't actually
 tested them

 Just my $0.02,

 Tristan

 On 30 January 2011 17:28, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 With regard to the home-brew counter project, if it still exists:

 From friend Marcus Leech on another list:

 Don't know whether you've seen these:

 http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_USB2.html

 $79.95 for the low-end board, which includes and FX2, and a small
 Cyclone FPGA.  Pretty good
  value.

 Thanks, Marcus. this looks like the very thing, just need the front
 end

 Don




 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



  

___
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Don Latham]

I looked over the Digilent site again, and I have to agree. There is a lot
of information available, and the textbooks available look interesting as
well. If I get really turned on, I may buy a board and book.
Don

Tijd Dingen
 I'd like to second John's suggestion to go with the Nexys2. As far as I'm
 concerned it has pretty good value for money.

 Regarding the standalone use, it has a configuration prom that you can
 use.
 That way it will automatically load your design on powerup, without
 needing
 a programmer every time.

 And regarding the programming tools, the digilent adept plugin for xilinx
 ise
 works pretty well. It used to only work under windows but these days the
 linux
 version also works. So you can program it directly using iMPACT, or
 command
 line tools for those who prefer a Makefile.

 regards,
 Fred




 - Original Message 
 From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 6:02:57 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter

 Seems right, John. For just a little more, the other units you recommended
 might be better. Still a lot of programming work to do, but implementing a
 simple counter/period measurement might not be too bad. I've never
 programmed an FPGA, so have no idea of the practicalities of really
 accomplishing anything...I have an Ettus Research USRP1 sitting here that
 I need to get going as well. There is not enough time in this world.
 Either that, or I need some serious time management skills. :-)

 Don

 John Miles
 I think that's what it was called, yes.  There was a console version and
 a
 GUI version, both closed-source.  Hopefully they also provide a linkable
 library by now; that's what you'd want to ask about.

 The Xylo board I was looking at didn't have a large EEPROM attached to
 its
 USB chip, so the loader was required to program the 8051 core on the USB
 chip and send the bitfile across to it.  So there are two separate
 rabbit
 holes to explore if you want to base a standalone design on that
 particular
 board.

 -- john, KE5FX

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]On
 Behalf Of Don Latham
 Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:04 AM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter


 Would that be FPGAconf? It's still mentioned in the documentation and
 seems to be a kind of bitfile loader. There's no mention of a
 requirement
 to use it, but it may be necessary. Docs mention Altera or Xilinx
 packages
 and a c++ compiler as necessary.
 I just skimmed the document.
 Don

  in business at all tells me that the requirement to run the
 configuration
  .exe is probably no longer in effect.
 
  -- john, KE5FX
 
 
  ___
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to
  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 


 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.





 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304

Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Bob Bownes]

Yes, it's still active. I've created a mailing list and google group
just for the counter project. opencoun...@googlegroups.com to keep the
counter project from going out to all 800 time-nuts.

The discussion seems to want to take place here however. :) I've been
trying _not_ to be the lead of the opencounter group, but rather to
enable it. So far it doesn't seem to be working. I guess I'll spin up
another round of benevolent dictator effort and say 'Yo! Over here!'

(I got a 5370B shortly after starting the opencounter group, so my
immediate need got taken care of, but that doesn't mean we still
shouldn't build an open counter. )

An FPGA based solution sounds quite flexible and attractive. I have a
Diligent NEXSYS sitting on the bench next to the 5370b as a matter of
fact. I'm sure we could get all the speed needed out of an FPGA, but
the analog i/o might get to be the tough part. I don't know enough
however.

I think your email got eaten by the spam filter. I'll respond to that shortly.

Bob


On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:11 PM, Tijd Dingen tijddin...@yahoo.com wrote:
 On that note, does anyone know if this counter project is still active? Some
 time ago I asked about this, but never got a reply. Maybe the e-mail got
 eaten by a spam filter, or maybe I just didn't ask nice enough, I don't
 know. ;-

 If there is still an active project, I'd be interested. If not, I'll just
 keep doing my own fpga based counter thing.

 regards,
 Fred




 - Original Message 
 From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 1:51:45 AM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter

 They look interesting, Tristan. Gee, nobody's in charge of this, I'm not
 sure it's even a project at this point, and AFIK there's no out of turn
 :-). I too like the Arduino, in fact I've settled on them or the Propeller
 for projects if I can, so the boards you propose may work just fine.
 Don

 Tristan Steele
 Hi Don,

 At the risk of speaking out of turn, and not knowing too much about this
 project (I'm new here!) have you considered something like these boards:

http://www.gadgetfactory.net/index.php?main_page=indexcPath=1zenid=d282dce6c5b0acfe45c1377315b2734c
c

 They use the Spartan 3E chips, like alot of low cost FPGA boards and also
 they expose the JTAG headers.  I'm unsure of the license of the current
 programming software but it is likely to be pretty hack-friendly as the
 board designs themselves are released under creative commons.

 They are designed for use with the Arduino project and a soft core, though
 this is certainly not required.  I've been looking at them as a nice, low
 cost FPGA board that is pretty configurable.

 I have no affiliation with the site, other then being a prospective
 customer.  I also haven't bought any of them yet, so I haven't actually
 tested them

 Just my $0.02,

 Tristan

 On 30 January 2011 17:28, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 With regard to the home-brew counter project, if it still exists:

 From friend Marcus Leech on another list:

 Don't know whether you've seen these:

 http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_USB2.html

 $79.95 for the low-end board, which includes and FX2, and a small
 Cyclone FPGA.  Pretty good
  value.

 Thanks, Marcus. this looks like the very thing, just need the front
 end

 Don




 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.





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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Tijd Dingen]

The discussion seems to want to take place here however. :)

I would say go with the flow. If the discussion is happening here and not 
there,
keep it here for now. When the project has gained momentum you can always decide
to go off-list again.


The analog I/O ranges from too easy to tricky, depending on your chosen
counter architecture and maximum frequency.

regards,
Fred


- Original Message 
From: Bob Bownes bow...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 2:26:22 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter

Yes, it's still active. I've created a mailing list and google group
just for the counter project. opencoun...@googlegroups.com to keep the
counter project from going out to all 800 time-nuts.

The discussion seems to want to take place here however. :) I've been
trying _not_ to be the lead of the opencounter group, but rather to
enable it. So far it doesn't seem to be working. I guess I'll spin up
another round of benevolent dictator effort and say 'Yo! Over here!'

(I got a 5370B shortly after starting the opencounter group, so my
immediate need got taken care of, but that doesn't mean we still
shouldn't build an open counter. )

An FPGA based solution sounds quite flexible and attractive. I have a
Diligent NEXSYS sitting on the bench next to the 5370b as a matter of
fact. I'm sure we could get all the speed needed out of an FPGA, but
the analog i/o might get to be the tough part. I don't know enough
however.

I think your email got eaten by the spam filter. I'll respond to that shortly.

Bob


On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:11 PM, Tijd Dingen tijddin...@yahoo.com wrote:
 On that note, does anyone know if this counter project is still active? Some
 time ago I asked about this, but never got a reply. Maybe the e-mail got
 eaten by a spam filter, or maybe I just didn't ask nice enough, I don't
 know. ;-

 If there is still an active project, I'd be interested. If not, I'll just
 keep doing my own fpga based counter thing.

 regards,
 Fred




 - Original Message 
 From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 1:51:45 AM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter

 They look interesting, Tristan. Gee, nobody's in charge of this, I'm not
 sure it's even a project at this point, and AFIK there's no out of turn
 :-). I too like the Arduino, in fact I've settled on them or the Propeller
 for projects if I can, so the boards you propose may work just fine.
 Don

 Tristan Steele
 Hi Don,

 At the risk of speaking out of turn, and not knowing too much about this
 project (I'm new here!) have you considered something like these boards:

http://www.gadgetfactory.net/index.php?main_page=indexcPath=1zenid=d282dce6c5b0acfe45c1377315b2734c

c

 They use the Spartan 3E chips, like alot of low cost FPGA boards and also
 they expose the JTAG headers.  I'm unsure of the license of the current
 programming software but it is likely to be pretty hack-friendly as the
 board designs themselves are released under creative commons.

 They are designed for use with the Arduino project and a soft core, though
 this is certainly not required.  I've been looking at them as a nice, low
 cost FPGA board that is pretty configurable.

 I have no affiliation with the site, other then being a prospective
 customer.  I also haven't bought any of them yet, so I haven't actually
 tested them

 Just my $0.02,

 Tristan

 On 30 January 2011 17:28, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 With regard to the home-brew counter project, if it still exists:

 From friend Marcus Leech on another list:

 Don't know whether you've seen these:

 http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_USB2.html

 $79.95 for the low-end board, which includes and FX2, and a small
 Cyclone FPGA.  Pretty good
  value.

 Thanks, Marcus. this looks like the very thing, just need the front
 end

 Don




 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell

Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Eric Garner]

My recollection is that the other list was formed to keep the S/N ratio of this 
list up.

-Eric

Sent from my Banana jr (tm) Mobile Device

On Jan 30, 2011, at 7:10 PM, Tijd Dingen tijddin...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The discussion seems to want to take place here however. :)
 
 I would say go with the flow. If the discussion is happening here and not 
 there,
 keep it here for now. When the project has gained momentum you can always 
 decide
 to go off-list again.
 
 
 The analog I/O ranges from too easy to tricky, depending on your chosen
 counter architecture and maximum frequency.
 
 regards,
 Fred
 
 
 - Original Message 
 From: Bob Bownes bow...@gmail.com
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 2:26:22 AM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter
 
 Yes, it's still active. I've created a mailing list and google group
 just for the counter project. opencoun...@googlegroups.com to keep the
 counter project from going out to all 800 time-nuts.
 
 The discussion seems to want to take place here however. :) I've been
 trying _not_ to be the lead of the opencounter group, but rather to
 enable it. So far it doesn't seem to be working. I guess I'll spin up
 another round of benevolent dictator effort and say 'Yo! Over here!'
 
 (I got a 5370B shortly after starting the opencounter group, so my
 immediate need got taken care of, but that doesn't mean we still
 shouldn't build an open counter. )
 
 An FPGA based solution sounds quite flexible and attractive. I have a
 Diligent NEXSYS sitting on the bench next to the 5370b as a matter of
 fact. I'm sure we could get all the speed needed out of an FPGA, but
 the analog i/o might get to be the tough part. I don't know enough
 however.
 
 I think your email got eaten by the spam filter. I'll respond to that shortly.
 
 Bob
 
 
 On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:11 PM, Tijd Dingen tijddin...@yahoo.com wrote:
 On that note, does anyone know if this counter project is still active? Some
 time ago I asked about this, but never got a reply. Maybe the e-mail got
 eaten by a spam filter, or maybe I just didn't ask nice enough, I don't
 know. ;-
 
 If there is still an active project, I'd be interested. If not, I'll just
 keep doing my own fpga based counter thing.
 
 regards,
 Fred
 
 
 
 
 - Original Message 
 From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 1:51:45 AM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter
 
 They look interesting, Tristan. Gee, nobody's in charge of this, I'm not
 sure it's even a project at this point, and AFIK there's no out of turn
 :-). I too like the Arduino, in fact I've settled on them or the Propeller
 for projects if I can, so the boards you propose may work just fine.
 Don
 
 Tristan Steele
 Hi Don,
 
 At the risk of speaking out of turn, and not knowing too much about this
 project (I'm new here!) have you considered something like these boards:
 
 http://www.gadgetfactory.net/index.php?main_page=indexcPath=1zenid=d282dce6c5b0acfe45c1377315b2734c
 
 c
 
 They use the Spartan 3E chips, like alot of low cost FPGA boards and also
 they expose the JTAG headers.  I'm unsure of the license of the current
 programming software but it is likely to be pretty hack-friendly as the
 board designs themselves are released under creative commons.
 
 They are designed for use with the Arduino project and a soft core, though
 this is certainly not required.  I've been looking at them as a nice, low
 cost FPGA board that is pretty configurable.
 
 I have no affiliation with the site, other then being a prospective
 customer.  I also haven't bought any of them yet, so I haven't actually
 tested them
 
 Just my $0.02,
 
 Tristan
 
 On 30 January 2011 17:28, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:
 
 With regard to the home-brew counter project, if it still exists:
 
 From friend Marcus Leech on another list:
 
 Don't know whether you've seen these:
 
 http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_USB2.html
 
 $79.95 for the low-end board, which includes and FX2, and a small
 Cyclone FPGA.  Pretty good
 value.
 
 Thanks, Marcus. this looks like the very thing, just need the front
 end
 
 Don
 
 
 
 
 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are
 as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell
 
 
 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com
 
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi

Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Don Latham]

With regard to the home-brew counter project, if it still exists:

From friend Marcus Leech on another list:

Don't know whether you've seen these:

http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_USB2.html

$79.95 for the low-end board, which includes and FX2, and a small
Cyclone FPGA.  Pretty good
  value.

Thanks, Marcus. this looks like the very thing, just need the front end

Don




-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] counter

[John Miles]

 With regard to the home-brew counter project, if it still exists:

 From friend Marcus Leech on another list:

 Don't know whether you've seen these:

 http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_USB2.html

 $79.95 for the low-end board, which includes and FX2, and a small
 Cyclone FPGA.  Pretty good
   value.

 Thanks, Marcus. this looks like the very thing, just need the front end

 Don



One word of warning, purely hypothetical in nature.  As of a couple of years
ago, rumor had it that the guy who runs knjn.com (also fpga4fun.com) was
convinced that his customers wouldn't mind running his proprietary .exe to
configure the board's USB chip and FPGA every time the device boots up.
Schematics were supposedly also not available at that time.  If these
rumored policies still prevail, that means you'll have to reverse-engineer
the board's JTAG-over-USB connections in order to do anything practical with
it.  Oh, and also, if you propose open-sourcing the results of your reverse
engineering effort, he may or may not throw a fit and accuse you of setting
out to wreck his business model.

Not that I have any direct knowledge along these lines. :-P

Suggest going with a Digilent board instead -- the Nexys 2 is a bit more
expensive but infinitely more 'hacker friendly' than any of the KNJN
products.  At the very least, you want to contact knjn.com before committing
to their board and ask some very pointed questions about the development
process and support code.

-- john, KE5FX


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Re: [time-nuts] counter

[Don Latham]

Aha. good to know. Do you suppose if we put on our thinking caps we can
get the academic pricing? Would whinging or outright begging do it?
:-)
Not that the decks are cleared for this project yet. Heck, my picII's
aren't built or programmed.

Don

John Miles


 With regard to the home-brew counter project, if it still exists:

 From friend Marcus Leech on another list:

 Don't know whether you've seen these:

 http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_USB2.html

 $79.95 for the low-end board, which includes and FX2, and a small
 Cyclone FPGA.  Pretty good
   value.

 Thanks, Marcus. this looks like the very thing, just need the front
 end

 Don



 One word of warning, purely hypothetical in nature.  As of a couple of
 years
 ago, rumor had it that the guy who runs knjn.com (also fpga4fun.com) was
 convinced that his customers wouldn't mind running his proprietary .exe to
 configure the board's USB chip and FPGA every time the device boots up.
 Schematics were supposedly also not available at that time.  If these
 rumored policies still prevail, that means you'll have to reverse-engineer
 the board's JTAG-over-USB connections in order to do anything practical
 with
 it.  Oh, and also, if you propose open-sourcing the results of your
 reverse
 engineering effort, he may or may not throw a fit and accuse you of
 setting
 out to wreck his business model.

 Not that I have any direct knowledge along these lines. :-P

 Suggest going with a Digilent board instead -- the Nexys 2 is a bit more
 expensive but infinitely more 'hacker friendly' than any of the KNJN
 products.  At the very least, you want to contact knjn.com before
 committing
 to their board and ask some very pointed questions about the development
 process and support code.

 -- john, KE5FX


 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] counter

[John Miles]

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]On
 Behalf Of Don Latham
 Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 11:13 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter


 Aha. good to know. Do you suppose if we put on our thinking caps we can
 get the academic pricing? Would whinging or outright begging do it?
 :-)
 Not that the decks are cleared for this project yet. Heck, my picII's
 aren't built or programmed.

 Don


Can't hurt to ask!

It's also possible that KNJN's policies are very different now.  I'm not
necessarily trying to steer anyone away from using them, so much as trying
to keep people from wasting as much time as I did.  The fact that he's still
in business at all tells me that the requirement to run the configuration
.exe is probably no longer in effect.

-- john, KE5FX


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[time-nuts] counter

[Don Latham]

A cursory look around produced counters and dividers from:
http://www.lsicsi.com
There are probably comparable units available elsewhere. I know that rfbay
has some microwave dividers, and Hittite as well, although Hittite is a
bit expensive.
Don


-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] counter

[Erik Kroon]

Hello,

I have some other Time and frequency stuff for some time nuts, before I place 
it on ebay.
A Stanford Research SR620 Time interval counter including option 1 (Oven Osc.)
Well working and timebase adjusted. 
A Vectron Crystal Oscillator CO-811B-1 10 MHz is a replacemant for the 
HP 10811 Oscillator

Please contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] . for more information.

Best regards,
Erik 
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Re: [time-nuts] counter

[SAIDJACK]

Hello Eric,
 
how much are you asking for the SR620?
 
thanks,
Said
 
 
In a message dated 3/10/2008 12:31:50 Pacific Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I have  some other Time and frequency stuff for some time nuts, before I 
place it on  ebay.
A Stanford Research SR620 Time interval counter including option 1  (Oven 
Osc.)
Well working and timebase adjusted. 
A Vectron Crystal  Oscillator CO-811B-1 10 MHz is a replacemant for the 
HP 10811  Oscillator





**It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money  
Finance.  (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301)
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Re: [time-nuts] Counter display resolution

[Mike Feher]

Bill -

Sorry if I was vague. I am assuming that the frequency read out is the
frequency in the display, and, not one over the bus. Regardless of the fact
that the counter is auto scaling or not, they can only display a fixed
number of digits. I am also assuming that these are reciprocal type of
counters. So, given a fixed time base, and a fixed number of digits, if the
delta f measured is above 10 MHz, then with a 11 digit display, you would
read 10,000,000.000 Hz plus the offset from that number. So, the observable
delta f would be at best in the 0.000 Hz range. Now, if the frequency
measured was slightly below 10 MHz, you would be able to display up to
9,999,999. Hz. I am not considering any averaging at this time, just
what is displayed. So, in this case you should be able to measure down to
0. Hz delta f. Hence my statement of the extra LSD being shown. This has
been my experience. Regards - Mike  

 
 
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960
 
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of WB6BNQ
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 7:00 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Counter display resolution

Mike,

Your statement about counters is rather general and misleading.  You need
to
explain your comment better.

For instance, are your referring to the input signal or did you mean having
the
internal reference frequency  offset from a standard value ?  All the
counters I
have do not auto-scale which is what it sounds like your counter is doing.
However, you do not mention the word scaling or auto in your statement.

In all of my counters the digits displayed is what you get no matter what
frequency is being observed.  There is no gain in resolution by being
slightly
lower then or any loss by being higher then some arbitrary point.

For the sake of the less skilled that might be on the list -server, could
you
explain in more clear detail what you were eluding to ?

Thank you ... BillWB6BNQ

Mike Feher wrote:

 Bob -

 With most counters, I have found that running them at slightly less than
10
 MHz gives you an extra displayed digit of resolution. If the 1 out of 10
 MHz were to be displayed, it would take up one more digit in the MSD
 position, leaving you one less in the LSD position. Since the numbers are
so
 close anyway, if measuring for stability, I personally would prefer that
 extra digit in the LSD position. Regards - Mike



 Mike B. Feher, N4FS
 89 Arnold Blvd.
 Howell, NJ, 07731
 732-886-5960


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Robert E. Martinson
 Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 1:57 AM
 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B question

 I ran my 5370B for one hour, counting its own reference with a one second
 gate.  The summary of the results are:

 min 999.99650  Hz
 max 999.99963  Hz
 avg 999.99796  Hz
 median  999.99787  Hz

 Per the manual's  Performance Test 5 (page 4-12) the spec is +/- 0.005 Hz.
 It would be nice if my average was 10,000,000.000 HZ but??  From a
Time-nuts
 thread of several months ago, the adjustment for this result is very
touchy
 and it's likely you will make the result worse rather then better.  Since
 mine is in spec, I'll leave it alone.

 I have sent the graphical  raw data to Corby, if anybody else is
interested
 please advise me of your email address.

 Regards,
 Bob Martinson, N1VQR

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of corby d dawson
 Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:15 PM
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B question

 Hi,

 Could a few of the 5370B owners connect the counters reference output to
 its counting input jack and with a 1 second gate let me know what the
 last 2 digits are doing?

 An earlier post implied that the last couple digits will wander around
 due to the way its designed.

 I'd like to know what a couple different counters show to see if that is
 indeed true!

 Thanks,

 Corby Dawson

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter display resolution

[A.H.Schmidt]

Mike , this is correct. if you display just under 10Mhz , you have a 
digit better resolution. My counter does the same

The same applies to 1Mhz , 100Mhz , etc . When the counter just has to 
go to the next higher digit, it will loose one digit resolution.

Regards, Horst


Mike Feher wrote:
 Bill -

 Sorry if I was vague. I am assuming that the frequency read out is the
 frequency in the display, and, not one over the bus. Regardless of the fact
 that the counter is auto scaling or not, they can only display a fixed
 number of digits. I am also assuming that these are reciprocal type of
 counters. So, given a fixed time base, and a fixed number of digits, if the
 delta f measured is above 10 MHz, then with a 11 digit display, you would
 read 10,000,000.000 Hz plus the offset from that number. So, the observable
 delta f would be at best in the 0.000 Hz range. Now, if the frequency
 measured was slightly below 10 MHz, you would be able to display up to
 9,999,999. Hz. I am not considering any averaging at this time, just
 what is displayed. So, in this case you should be able to measure down to
 0. Hz delta f. Hence my statement of the extra LSD being shown. This has
 been my experience. Regards - Mike  

  
  
 Mike B. Feher, N4FS
 89 Arnold Blvd.
 Howell, NJ, 07731
 732-886-5960
  
  

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of WB6BNQ
 Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 7:00 AM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: [time-nuts] Counter display resolution

 Mike,

 Your statement about counters is rather general and misleading.  You need
 to
 explain your comment better.

 For instance, are your referring to the input signal or did you mean having
 the
 internal reference frequency  offset from a standard value ?  All the
 counters I
 have do not auto-scale which is what it sounds like your counter is doing.
 However, you do not mention the word scaling or auto in your statement.

 In all of my counters the digits displayed is what you get no matter what
 frequency is being observed.  There is no gain in resolution by being
 slightly
 lower then or any loss by being higher then some arbitrary point.

 For the sake of the less skilled that might be on the list -server, could
 you
 explain in more clear detail what you were eluding to ?

 Thank you ... BillWB6BNQ

 Mike Feher wrote:

   
 Bob -

 With most counters, I have found that running them at slightly less than
 
 10
   
 MHz gives you an extra displayed digit of resolution. If the 1 out of 10
 MHz were to be displayed, it would take up one more digit in the MSD
 position, leaving you one less in the LSD position. Since the numbers are
 
 so
   
 close anyway, if measuring for stability, I personally would prefer that
 extra digit in the LSD position. Regards - Mike



 Mike B. Feher, N4FS
 89 Arnold Blvd.
 Howell, NJ, 07731
 732-886-5960


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Robert E. Martinson
 Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 1:57 AM
 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B question

 I ran my 5370B for one hour, counting its own reference with a one second
 gate.  The summary of the results are:

 min 999.99650  Hz
 max 999.99963  Hz
 avg 999.99796  Hz
 median  999.99787  Hz

 Per the manual's  Performance Test 5 (page 4-12) the spec is +/- 0.005 Hz.
 It would be nice if my average was 10,000,000.000 HZ but??  From a
 
 Time-nuts
   
 thread of several months ago, the adjustment for this result is very
 
 touchy
   
 and it's likely you will make the result worse rather then better.  Since
 mine is in spec, I'll leave it alone.

 I have sent the graphical  raw data to Corby, if anybody else is
 
 interested
   
 please advise me of your email address.

 Regards,
 Bob Martinson, N1VQR

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of corby d dawson
 Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:15 PM
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B question

 Hi,

 Could a few of the 5370B owners connect the counters reference output to
 its counting input jack and with a 1 second gate let me know what the
 last 2 digits are doing?

 An earlier post implied that the last couple digits will wander around
 due to the way its designed.

 I'd like to know what a couple different counters show to see if that is
 indeed true!

 Thanks,

 Corby Dawson

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Re: [time-nuts] Counter display resolution

[Chris Cheney]

 Mike , this is correct. if you display just under 10Mhz , you have a
 digit better resolution. My counter does the same
 
 The same applies to 1Mhz , 100Mhz , etc . When the counter just has to
 go to the next higher digit, it will loose one digit resolution.

Not if the counter can roll-over (i.e. exceed the maximum count for 
the number of digits displayed).

Typically, you know the frequency is, say, close to 10 MHz so 
displaying the LEADING digits is just a waste of precision.

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[time-nuts] Counter joy

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi fellow time-nuts!

A few days ago I finally received my latest counter, a Wavecrest SIA-3000P.
It's a 3-channel bestie with 1.7 GHz BW on each channel. I have now pulled a
few small tricks and is able to run it with external monitor, mouse and
keyboard. Isn't that hard actually. I just did my first measurements and feel
a bit joyfull about it. It's a rather extreme piece of equipment and my main
complain about it is actually the (audioble) noise it makes from all the fans.
Ah well. I guess I will have to bring it with me to work every now and then.
Getting used to helping out on tricky measurements with my home-gear. Hehe.

As fellow time-nuts, I turn to you for understanding of the burden and joy I
got myself into.

Oh, and I have also (finally) laid my hands on a GPS distribution amplifier.
An HP 58517A, a 1-to-8 guy.

I just have to surrender, I now have an increasing amount of SMA and N-type
connectors growing in my lab. It used to be very simple 50 Ohm BNC everywhere
except a few places. Ah well. N-type where only the network analyzer.

Cheers,
Magnus

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