[time-nuts] Jackson Labs' Web-Site
Hello All, A little off topic maybe - is it just me or is the Jackson-Labs.com site down/offline? http://www.jackson-labs.com http://jackson-labs.com Regards, John Westmoreland ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Jackson Labs' Web-Site
nslookup fails and whois shows their domain registration expired yesterday On 2013-09-03 01:42, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote: Hello All, A little off topic maybe - is it just me or is the Jackson-Labs.com site down/offline? http://www.jackson-labs.com http://jackson-labs.com Regards, John Westmoreland ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Jackson Labs' Web-Site
Hello Brian, I hope Said knows. I hope someone doesn't rip off their domain. Regards, John W. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Brian Inglis brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca wrote: nslookup fails and whois shows their domain registration expired yesterday On 2013-09-03 01:42, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote: Hello All, A little off topic maybe - is it just me or is the Jackson-Labs.com site down/offline? http://www.jackson-labs.com http://jackson-labs.com Regards, John Westmoreland __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New Member
Hi The power input is fully isolated from the case. That's typical telecom practice. In addition it's run through a full wave bridge, so polarity (and wiring errors) are not as big a deal. You *could* run one off of +/- 12 volts. Anything between about 22 volts and 56 volts will run the unit. Bob On Sep 2, 2013, at 10:32 PM, quartz55 quart...@hughes.net wrote: That's +24 VDC 'or' -48 VDC. Nothing in between. I have a hard time in ebay searching for things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] NTBW50AA Power supply
Well, reading the spec sheet, it says -48VDC (-40Vdc min, -60Vdc max) at 2.8A for warm up and .6 during run time 350mv ripple, OR +24Vdc (20Vdc min, 30Vdc max) at 3.57A for warm up and 1.03A run 240mv p-p ripple. I'm assuming that after the bridge there's some sort of switcher that feeds the unit +5,+12, -12, which I understand is typical for the Thunderbolt units. But I don't have this thing in hand yet. It very well may work off +-12V which is essentially 24V, but I doubt if it will work if the voltage is too low, but I'm just speculating. I know it won't work of 0V which is between 12 and -48. It may be a variation on one of those 90-220VAC input switchers that's made to work off DC. It may just be the way they had to write the specs, but will work with about anything. I'm not trying to be picky here, I don't want to mess up right off the bat. Looks like I may be able to use this 5A transformer that puts 35V out of a bridge circuit into an 8200uF cap, but I need to measure the ripple at 1A or so. I can always add a lot more uF. Thanks for those links to the supplies though. Yeah, I see where the digital ground is used for the supply return, not the case so the PS should be isolated pretty well. Is anyone using one of these particular units? Dave N3DT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
It is very rare to see courts deal with time precisions less than minutes, but it seems to have happened in this case: (from: www.judiciary.state.nj.us/opinions/a1128-12.pdf) Best stopped his truck, saw the severity of the injuries, and called 911. The time of the 911 call was 17:49:15, that is, fifteen seconds after 5:49 p.m. [...] texts [...] exchanged while Best was driving: Sent Sender Received Recipient [...] 5:47:49 Best5:47:56 Colonna 5:48:14 Colonna 5:48:23 Best 5:48:58 Best5:49:07 Colonna (5:49:15 911 Call) This sequence indicates the precise time of the accident - within seconds of 5:48:58. Seventeen seconds elapsed from Best's sending a text to Colonna and the time of the 911 call after the accident. Those seconds had to include Best's stopping his vehicle, observing the injuries to the Kuberts, and dialing 911. It appears, therefore, that Best collided with the Kuberts' motorcycle immediately after sending a text at 5:48:58. Nowhere does the opinion mention if the timestamps were taken on the same clock or if the two clocks were synchronized. Best was a volunteer fireman, but I still find the seventeen seconds slightly incredible. The seventeen seconds are somewhat material to the ruling, but not a decisive factor. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers
Hi Bill I guess technology moved along. I think of the mix type of syn like genrad made 1164 maybe. Son of a guns to keep working and I think they are noisey. Granted in the day they were not bad for what they were doing. You could emulate much in todays technology. But I think cost becomes an issue. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net wrote: Why do we hardly ever talk about synthesizers - those boxes that turn 10 MHz into other frequencies? Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
On 9/3/13 7:07 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: It is very rare to see courts deal with time precisions less than minutes, but it seems to have happened in this case: Interesting (and of course, this case has been in the news recently).. In this case, all the messages were presumably handled by the same carrier, so the issue of skew in timestamps is negligible; they're all presumably running off the same clock. I wonder, though, whether this is always the case. Yes, the cell companies have accurate timing at the cell site level to do a variety of things, but I could see that getting lost along the way to the meta data logging process. The time stamp might be when the message arrived at the logging process. And, different companies might have different standards for how those timestamps get applied and their accuracy requirements. I can see how a company might have a legacy billing system that, say, works in 0.1 minute chunks, so a 6 second random scatter is inherent in the system. Given that cell companies know the location of the radio with at least a few tens of meters, it would be interesting to see statistics of text messages sent/received while on freeways. Indeed, one does not know that the person with the phone in question is a driver or passenger, but simple observation (at least in Los Angeles) shows that the vast majority of cars are single passenger (alas, even in carpool lanes, there's a significant number of them). I do know they calculate this sort of thing, because they use it to determine where to put new cell sites or change capacity. The question is whether the information is available in any sort of useful form. It could be some horribly ad hoc process where an engineer gets a bunch of text files, and they load it into Excel spreadsheets to process it. It's not like they necessarily do site planning on a minute by minute basis, so a manual process that takes a few days is plausible. (from: www.judiciary.state.nj.us/opinions/a1128-12.pdf) Best stopped his truck, saw the severity of the injuries, and called 911. The time of the 911 call was 17:49:15, that is, fifteen seconds after 5:49 p.m. [...] texts [...] exchanged while Best was driving: Sent Sender Received Recipient [...] 5:47:49 Best5:47:56 Colonna 5:48:14 Colonna 5:48:23 Best 5:48:58 Best5:49:07 Colonna (5:49:15 911 Call) This sequence indicates the precise time of the accident - within seconds of 5:48:58. Seventeen seconds elapsed from Best's sending a text to Colonna and the time of the 911 call after the accident. Those seconds had to include Best's stopping his vehicle, observing the injuries to the Kuberts, and dialing 911. It appears, therefore, that Best collided with the Kuberts' motorcycle immediately after sending a text at 5:48:58. Nowhere does the opinion mention if the timestamps were taken on the same clock or if the two clocks were synchronized. Best was a volunteer fireman, but I still find the seventeen seconds slightly incredible. Based on the behavior my cell phone (sending texts in signal denied areas), I assume the time stamp is actually the time when message processed by cell site, which could be many seconds (minutes, hours) after pushing the send button. I've had text messages queued in my phone that get sent when I land and turn my phone back on. More than once my wife has gotten the they're closing the door text from me when I landed. Well, Best did take 35 seconds to respond to the text from Colonna. I think we can assume that the incident occurred slightly after x:58 (although I suppose the sequence could have been keypress keypress keypress sound of impact keypress send message Zipping along at 30 mi/hr (14 m/s), 10 seconds is quite a distance. This was about a half an hour before sunset on that date. There was a turn in the road involved, etc. What didn't show up in the record is the lat/lon estimate for Best's cell phone. I would assume that in 2009 they were logging this as well, but maybe the data was not in evidence (the lawyers may not have wanted it.. that's the frustrating thing about reading appellate cases: you have to work with the data as presented at the original trial) The seventeen seconds are somewhat material to the ruling, but not a decisive factor. I think it's more the back and forth of messages just before the incident that are at issue: they imply that there was a conversation of sorts going on, and that the young lady may have had knowledge that he was driving at the time (which ultimately is what this case is all about). I'll bet the marketeers at the cell company have all sorts of models of texting behavior among people, just waiting for the ability to insert ads of the
Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers
On 9/2/13 7:50 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: Why do we hardly ever talk about synthesizers - those boxes that turn 10 MHz into other frequencies? We do.. there's a fair amount of talk about boxes like the PTS synthesizers. And there's been talk about 866x series synths, and perhaps the 3325, although I'd have to go search to be sure. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTBW50AA Power supply
Hi The application for all these boxes is cell tower infrastructure. Some of the world likes the old style 48 volt power (like the old ATT) and some like 24 volt power. The spec sheet is written so that either the 24 volt guys or the 48 volt guys will be happy with the part. I don't know of anybody who wants to put 35 volts into a chunk of cell tower gear. The way switchers are designed (it's just a standard brick supply) they are quite happy over a voltage range with no ranging or fiddling. I would not try to operate one at the very bottom or top end of it's spec, but anything in the middle should keep them quite happy. You don't want to have the supply trip out (under or over) when you have a power burp. Your bulk supply should do just fine. The only gotcha would be if it's got a habit of passing line transients. A fast transient might get past a giant electrolytic / not be damped by the transformer inductance. It's not something I'd worry about.. I have several of the Nortel / Trimble units running with no problems on any of them. One's on a bulk 24 v supply, one is on a dual lab supply set to +/- 15V and the other is on a 48 volt bulk supply. Bob On Sep 3, 2013, at 9:46 AM, quartz55 quart...@hughes.net wrote: Well, reading the spec sheet, it says -48VDC (-40Vdc min, -60Vdc max) at 2.8A for warm up and .6 during run time 350mv ripple, OR +24Vdc (20Vdc min, 30Vdc max) at 3.57A for warm up and 1.03A run 240mv p-p ripple. I'm assuming that after the bridge there's some sort of switcher that feeds the unit +5,+12, -12, which I understand is typical for the Thunderbolt units. But I don't have this thing in hand yet. It very well may work off +-12V which is essentially 24V, but I doubt if it will work if the voltage is too low, but I'm just speculating. I know it won't work of 0V which is between 12 and -48. It may be a variation on one of those 90-220VAC input switchers that's made to work off DC. It may just be the way they had to write the specs, but will work with about anything. I'm not trying to be picky here, I don't want to mess up right off the bat. Looks like I may be able to use this 5A transformer that puts 35V out of a bridge circuit into an 8200uF cap, but I need to measure the ripple at 1A or so. I can always add a lot more uF. Thanks for those links to the supplies though. Yeah, I see where the digital ground is used for the supply return, not the case so the PS should be isolated pretty well. Is anyone using one of these particular units? Dave N3DT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTBW50AA Power supply
I have a Nortel /Trimble 45000 which appears to be the bare board that is is in the NTBW50AA and I have been running it for several months now off of the power cube for an old printer that is rated for 30VDC, it is just rectified and filtered, the output from the cube is not regulated.The input power does feed a switching regulator on the board that generates the voltages that the GPSDO requires. The manual does say that it may shut down at +31V which may suggest there is some voltage sensing but I don't recall seeing anything like that when I examined the board. Paul. On 9/03/13 10:46 AM, quartz55 wrote: Well, reading the spec sheet, it says -48VDC (-40Vdc min, -60Vdc max) at 2.8A for warm up and .6 during run time 350mv ripple, OR +24Vdc (20Vdc min, 30Vdc max) at 3.57A for warm up and 1.03A run 240mv p-p ripple. I'm assuming that after the bridge there's some sort of switcher that feeds the unit +5,+12, -12, which I understand is typical for the Thunderbolt units. But I don't have this thing in hand yet. It very well may work off +-12V which is essentially 24V, but I doubt if it will work if the voltage is too low, but I'm just speculating. I know it won't work of 0V which is between 12 and -48. It may be a variation on one of those 90-220VAC input switchers that's made to work off DC. It may just be the way they had to write the specs, but will work with about anything. I'm not trying to be picky here, I don't want to mess up right off the bat. Looks like I may be able to use this 5A transformer that puts 35V out of a bridge circuit into an 8200uF cap, but I need to measure the ripple at 1A or so. I can always add a lot more uF. Thanks for those links to the supplies though. Yeah, I see where the digital ground is used for the supply return, not the case so the PS should be isolated pretty well. Is anyone using one of these particular units? Dave N3DT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
On 9/3/2013 10:56 AM, Jim Lux wrote: In this case, all the messages were presumably handled by the same carrier, so the issue of skew in timestamps is negligible; they're all presumably running off the same clock. But not necessarily the same time. For instance, some cell systems run on GPS time, but the carrier may keep records in UTC, since it's the legal time in most jurisdictions. A phone might time stamp using either (Google has a years-old bug in Android which lets it use GPS time and not UTC). So, different devices on the same network may not be in sync. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Jackson Labs' Web-Site
Hi guys, Thanks for the heads up, all should be well now. The auto-renew did not work because we moved and they had an old CC address. Domains that expire stay locked for 36+ days to the old owner, so no risk there.. This brings up a good point, we have had an open req for a software engineer for quite some time now on our website on the career page on our site, and on various career forums, and are still looking for someone capable... Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Sep 3, 2013, at 2:05, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote: Hello Brian, I hope Said knows. I hope someone doesn't rip off their domain. Regards, John W. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Brian Inglis brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca wrote: nslookup fails and whois shows their domain registration expired yesterday On 2013-09-03 01:42, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote: Hello All, A little off topic maybe - is it just me or is the Jackson-Labs.com site down/offline? http://www.jackson-labs.com http://jackson-labs.com Regards, John Westmoreland __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
I remember a lecture by an officer of the (London) Met Police about how tracable time was essential to demolishing the defence of wrong clock in accidents involving the illegal use of mobile phones when moving and even parking meter tickets. They had to argue why the cell time was more right than the defendants watch!! This was part of a meeting of the Time and Frequency Club at the NPL at Teddington about 6 years ago. Alan G3NYK .. - Original Message - From: Mike S mi...@flatsurface.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case On 9/3/2013 10:56 AM, Jim Lux wrote: In this case, all the messages were presumably handled by the same carrier, so the issue of skew in timestamps is negligible; they're all presumably running off the same clock. But not necessarily the same time. For instance, some cell systems run on GPS time, but the carrier may keep records in UTC, since it's the legal time in most jurisdictions. A phone might time stamp using either (Google has a years-old bug in Android which lets it use GPS time and not UTC). So, different devices on the same network may not be in sync. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
In message 5225f8af.60...@earthlink.net, Jim Lux writes: In this case, all the messages were presumably handled by the same carrier, so the issue of skew in timestamps is negligible; Anything but. The text-messages are likely stamped by the SS7-message-gateway and the 911 call by the countys 911 equipment. And yes, there can be quite a delay from you press send until the SS7-message-gateway sees the text-message. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
You can find (for better or worse) NTSB analysis of various recorder timestamps relative to cell phone timestamp. http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/summary/RAR1001.html 6 In this report, all times associated with the sending or receiving of calls and text messages are from Verizon records. In these records, the “sent” and “received” times are based on a GPS time reference and reflect the time the Verizon Wireless network equipment either receives or delivers a message. Thus, the reported “sent” time of a message does not necessarily correlate to the time the sender pressed the “send” button on the wireless device. Because the network must query the receiving device to make sure it is available before transmitting a message, the “received” time is more likely to reflect the actual time the message arrives on the recipient’s device. 7 In this report, all times associated with signal, switch, and locomotive events are based on signal log and locomotive event recorder data synchronized to a GPS reference time. This synchronization correlates train position, data recorder, signal, and cell phone send/receive times to a common “master clock” that reflects actual GPS time. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Alan Melia alan.me...@btinternet.comwrote: I remember a lecture by an officer of the (London) Met Police about how tracable time was essential to demolishing the defence of wrong clock in accidents involving the illegal use of mobile phones when moving and even parking meter tickets. They had to argue why the cell time was more right than the defendants watch!! This was part of a meeting of the Time and Frequency Club at the NPL at Teddington about 6 years ago. Alan G3NYK .. - Original Message - From: Mike S mi...@flatsurface.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case On 9/3/2013 10:56 AM, Jim Lux wrote: In this case, all the messages were presumably handled by the same carrier, so the issue of skew in timestamps is negligible; they're all presumably running off the same clock. But not necessarily the same time. For instance, some cell systems run on GPS time, but the carrier may keep records in UTC, since it's the legal time in most jurisdictions. A phone might time stamp using either (Google has a years-old bug in Android which lets it use GPS time and not UTC). So, different devices on the same network may not be in sync. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
Nowhere does the opinion mention if the timestamps were taken on the same clock or if the two clocks were synchronized. PHK, Correct. This is an age-old problem, whether its minutes or nanoseconds. Time-stamps are inherently relative to a local oscillator's time and rate offset, and affected by frequency drift and stability levels. A solution to this problem is for the first responder to take the cell phone(s) and simultaneously send a text message to himself from each phone. That could help establish a legal time difference (unless, there are variable reception or carrier-specific delays). They could also simultaneously send cell phone photos of a handheld GPS receiver's time display. That could help establish a legal time accuracy question (unless, the cell phone or GPS receiver were in some sort of hold-over mode). For extra credit, further photos can be sent each hour for hours or days to determine the cell phone frequency drift and stability parameters. Then again, realize that a jury of your fellow citizens, not a jury of your peers, will decide the question of timing. Thus to raise technical issues like syntonization vs. synchronization, or standard vs. Allan deviation, or GPS vs. UTC clocks will probably not help your case. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
On 09/03/2013 11:47 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: Nowhere does the opinion mention if the timestamps were taken on the same clock or if the two clocks were synchronized. PHK, Correct. This is an age-old problem, whether its minutes or nanoseconds. Time-stamps are inherently relative to a local oscillator's time and rate offset, and affected by frequency drift and stability levels. A solution to this problem is for the first responder to take the cell phone(s) and simultaneously send a text message to himself from each phone. That could help establish a legal time difference (unless, there are variable reception or carrier-specific delays). They could also simultaneously send cell phone photos of a handheld GPS receiver's time display. That could help establish a legal time accuracy question (unless, the cell phone or GPS receiver were in some sort of hold-over mode). For extra credit, further photos can be sent each hour for hours or days to determine the cell phone frequency drift and stability parameters. Then again, realize that a jury of your fellow citizens, not a jury of your peers, will decide the question of timing. Thus to raise technical issues like syntonization vs. synchronization, or standard vs. Allan deviation, or GPS vs. UTC clocks will probably not help your case. Who is this Allan whos deviation is this or that value? Yeah, the question is even if you have a legal support for what correct time or even traceable time actually is or means. I know countries that does not even legally accept UTC. It could be better, way better. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers
The one mix and match synth I've not got working is my HP 5100B/5110B. It came to me for the price of about 15 gallons of gas, and day on the road. Was stored in a unheated shop for at least two decades, if not three. Why have one ? .. Goes with the GR1161, 1162, (No 1164 or 68 yet), PTS 160, Monsanto 3100A, Fluke 6160B, etc. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 7:14 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Bill I guess technology moved along. I think of the mix type of syn like genrad made 1164 maybe. Son of a guns to keep working and I think they are noisey. Granted in the day they were not bad for what they were doing. You could emulate much in todays technology. But I think cost becomes an issue. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net wrote: Why do we hardly ever talk about synthesizers - those boxes that turn 10 MHz into other frequencies? Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Raw GPS signal samples
Somewhat off-topic but it might help someone out: I've had a tough time finding, and using, files on the net containing raw GPS signal samples to be used with the various software-only (or software-mostly) GPS receivers out there. I finally got a file of data that works and have have posted it plus a description of the file format here: http://www.jks.com/gps/gps.html I've used it successfully with Andrew Holme's excellent homemade GPS receiver. Now on to building an actual RF front-end to get some real signals.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
On 09/04/2013 12:19 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote: Yeah, the question is even if you have a legal support for what correct time or even traceable time actually is or means. I know countries that does not even legally accept UTC. It could be better, way better. Cheers, Magnus Still, imagine Magnus collides with Tom. What time did it really happen? Does it help if we both have GPS? Both have cesium(s) in the back seat? At some point the notion of uncertainty and error bars needs to be allowed. We both agree, but now it is about convincing a jury... or lawyers. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
Tom, Did you ever reset that thing to the correct time? =) Bob From: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case Yeah, the question is even if you have a legal support for what correct time or even traceable time actually is or means. I know countries that does not even legally accept UTC. It could be better, way better. Cheers, Magnus Still, imagine Magnus collides with Tom. What time did it really happen? Does it help if we both have GPS? Both have cesium(s) in the back seat? At some point the notion of uncertainty and error bars needs to be allowed. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Jackson Labs' Web-Site
On 9/3/13 10:20 AM, Said Jackson wrote: Hi guys, Thanks for the heads up, all should be well now. The auto-renew did not work because we moved and they had an old CC address. Domains that expire stay locked for 36+ days to the old owner, so no risk there.. This brings up a good point, we have had an open req for a software engineer for quite some time now on our website on the career page on our site, and on various career forums, and are still looking for someone capable... But the real question is... do you know exactly at what time the domain went off the air? grin After this *is* timenuts. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers
There was a recent, fairly long, 'conversation' about the 3325A and resurrecting it from a failed EPROM (and other problems, I think) that ultimately was resolved by replacing the four Synertek 32K EPROM's with two MCM68766 64K EPROM's. From what I have been told, it was a simple matter of removing the four 32K EPROM's from positions U1, U2, U3 and U4 on the A6 Board and inserting the two 64K EPROM's at positions U1 and U2. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 9:59 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers On 9/2/13 7:50 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: Why do we hardly ever talk about synthesizers - those boxes that turn 10 MHz into other frequencies? We do.. there's a fair amount of talk about boxes like the PTS synthesizers. And there's been talk about 866x series synths, and perhaps the 3325, although I'd have to go search to be sure. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Jackson Labs' Web-Site
Jim, It must have been the 223ps and 32 part per trillion spike at the end of the plot: http://www.jackson-labs.com/images/gpsstat.htm :) Sent From iPhone On Sep 3, 2013, at 16:22, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 9/3/13 10:20 AM, Said Jackson wrote: Hi guys, Thanks for the heads up, all should be well now. The auto-renew did not work because we moved and they had an old CC address. Domains that expire stay locked for 36+ days to the old owner, so no risk there.. This brings up a good point, we have had an open req for a software engineer for quite some time now on our website on the career page on our site, and on various career forums, and are still looking for someone capable... But the real question is... do you know exactly at what time the domain went off the air? grin After this *is* timenuts. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers
Pete A shame we did not meet a few years ago I had 2 1164s. Both working and cranky. Often thought about using modern technology per decade. Anyhow you could have been the proud owner of both of them for that magical box we send back and forth. As it was I darnear gave them a way for a song at a hamfest. I do have a 8660c and fluke 6060. Both work very well and I use them often. I am familiar with the old HP now thats a serious boat anchor. I assume you picked up both the source and the gen it was a 2 unit gizmo. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Pete Lancashire p...@petelancashire.comwrote: The one mix and match synth I've not got working is my HP 5100B/5110B. It came to me for the price of about 15 gallons of gas, and day on the road. Was stored in a unheated shop for at least two decades, if not three. Why have one ? .. Goes with the GR1161, 1162, (No 1164 or 68 yet), PTS 160, Monsanto 3100A, Fluke 6160B, etc. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 7:14 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Bill I guess technology moved along. I think of the mix type of syn like genrad made 1164 maybe. Son of a guns to keep working and I think they are noisey. Granted in the day they were not bad for what they were doing. You could emulate much in todays technology. But I think cost becomes an issue. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net wrote: Why do we hardly ever talk about synthesizers - those boxes that turn 10 MHz into other frequencies? Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers
Joe On the 3325 I will also bet they had to change a jumper next to each socket. HP was quite good about that. I just did sort of teh same fix on my HP54100d that simply forgot. Lucky for me after 3 years of hunting someone finally put a good set on Diddiers site. Regards Paul. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 7:38 PM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote: There was a recent, fairly long, 'conversation' about the 3325A and resurrecting it from a failed EPROM (and other problems, I think) that ultimately was resolved by replacing the four Synertek 32K EPROM's with two MCM68766 64K EPROM's. From what I have been told, it was a simple matter of removing the four 32K EPROM's from positions U1, U2, U3 and U4 on the A6 Board and inserting the two 64K EPROM's at positions U1 and U2. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 9:59 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers On 9/2/13 7:50 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: Why do we hardly ever talk about synthesizers - those boxes that turn 10 MHz into other frequencies? We do.. there's a fair amount of talk about boxes like the PTS synthesizers. And there's been talk about 866x series synths, and perhaps the 3325, although I'd have to go search to be sure. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
Who among you has volunteered to do the research for this? I don't have a camera in my cell phone, and I avoid market research masquerading as insecure social networks. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- Tom Van Baak said, For extra credit, further photos can be sent each hour for hours or days to determine the cell phone frequency drift and stability parameters. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
On 9/3/13 11:21 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 5225f8af.60...@earthlink.net, Jim Lux writes: In this case, all the messages were presumably handled by the same carrier, so the issue of skew in timestamps is negligible; Anything but. The text-messages are likely stamped by the SS7-message-gateway and the 911 call by the countys 911 equipment. I was assuming (with no real basis, I realize) that the 911 call time came from the cell equipment, rather than the Public Safety Answering Point log. The PSAP log would have no particular reason to be synced to the carrier equipment. It could well be what time was on the watch of the guy starting the equipment, although these days, one would *think* that they use something like NTP to set the system time. However, given my frustrated experience trying to get folks doing testbeds and ground support equipment here at JPL to *please* synchronize your computers meaningfully so we can merge logs, I wouldn't count on it. Or maybe they sync once every 24 hours. And yes, there can be quite a delay from you press send until the SS7-message-gateway sees the text-message. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
On 9/3/13 2:47 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: Nowhere does the opinion mention if the timestamps were taken on the same clock or if the two clocks were synchronized. PHK, Correct. This is an age-old problem, whether its minutes or nanoseconds. Time-stamps are inherently relative to a local oscillator's time and rate offset, and affected by frequency drift and stability levels. A solution to this problem is for the first responder to take the cell phone(s) and simultaneously send a text message to himself from each phone. That could help establish a legal time difference (unless, there are variable reception or carrier-specific delays). No way is the FR going to do anything with that phone other than drop it into a shielded bag, maybe after removing the battery. Operating the keys on the phone would be tampering with the evidence. They could also simultaneously send cell phone photos of a handheld GPS receiver's time display. That could help establish a legal time accuracy question (unless, the cell phone or GPS receiver were in some sort of hold-over mode). If that's the case, it would be done in a forensic lab with the phone hooked up to one of those fancy phone analysis systems. For extra credit, further photos can be sent each hour for hours or days to determine the cell phone frequency drift and stability parameters. Then again, realize that a jury of your fellow citizens, not a jury of your peers, will decide the question of timing. Thus to raise technical issues like syntonization vs. synchronization, or standard vs. Allan deviation, or GPS vs. UTC clocks will probably not help your case. There's a whole literature of mystery novels based on timetables and such, including clever use of that new fangled device the telephone to make someone think they are in one place rather than another. WHen *I* commit that perfect murder, and am unhappily arrested, I'm going to demand that only time-nuts sit on the jury. You've been warned. The Ventura county courthouse is in a fairly pleasant location near the shore and has a decent cafeteria. Pray I do not get arrested in Los Angeles county, which is a hellhole in which to serve as a jury member. Realistically, though, there's a lot of potential time related litigation in the securities industry. Accusations of front running in the high frequency trading area, for instance, might revolve around milliseconds. For all we know, there are litigation consultants reviewing the archives of this list at this very moment, identifying people who they would or would not want sitting on the jury. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 110, Issue 13 On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 19:52:17 -0400, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2013 00:27:18 +0200 From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case Message-ID: 52266246.2020...@rubidium.dyndns.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 09/04/2013 12:19 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote: Yeah, the question is even if you have a legal support for what correct time or even traceable time actually is or means. I know countries that does not even legally accept UTC. It could be better, way better. Cheers, Magnus Still, imagine Magnus collides with Tom. What time did it really happen? Does it help if we both have GPS? Both have cesium(s) in the back seat? At some point the notion of uncertainty and error bars needs to be allowed. We both agree, but now it is about convincing a jury... or lawyers. I can see it now - the focus will be on all that cesium spewed about, like with Fukushima. You'll never convince them that you are not radioactive. Joe Gwinn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
Re the PSAP timekeeping Requirement: See NENA 04-002, Traceable UTC Source, Master Clock Specification http://www.nena.org/resource/collection/6EE32917-37BD-4FA0-838C-026931F702A6/NENA_04-002-v4_PSAP_Master_Clock.pdf On 9/3/2013 7:59 PM, Jim Lux wrote: I was assuming (with no real basis, I realize) that the 911 call time came from the cell equipment, rather than the Public Safety Answering Point log. The PSAP log would have no particular reason to be synced to the carrier equipment. It could well be what time was on the watch of the guy starting the equipment, although these days, one would *think* that they use something like NTP to set the system time. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
This precisely why I stopped wearing a watch years ago Stranger: What time is it? Me: When? Stranger: What 'when'? - now of course! Me: Now - where? - Now you? or Now me? (Hint ~ 3 nsec dt) and so forth and so on. better a watch don't have - no questions On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote: Nowhere does the opinion mention if the timestamps were taken on the same clock or if the two clocks were synchronized. PHK, Correct. This is an age-old problem, whether its minutes or nanoseconds. Time-stamps are inherently relative to a local oscillator's time and rate offset, and affected by frequency drift and stability levels. A solution to this problem is for the first responder to take the cell phone(s) and simultaneously send a text message to himself from each phone. That could help establish a legal time difference (unless, there are variable reception or carrier-specific delays). They could also simultaneously send cell phone photos of a handheld GPS receiver's time display. That could help establish a legal time accuracy question (unless, the cell phone or GPS receiver were in some sort of hold-over mode). For extra credit, further photos can be sent each hour for hours or days to determine the cell phone frequency drift and stability parameters. Then again, realize that a jury of your fellow citizens, not a jury of your peers, will decide the question of timing. Thus to raise technical issues like syntonization vs. synchronization, or standard vs. Allan deviation, or GPS vs. UTC clocks will probably not help your case. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] GPS-18, Windows, NTP Lat Lon
I'm looking for an easy way to get current lat lon, when you've got a GPS-18 hooked up for NTP. That is, the GPS receiver is there doing it's NTP thing, so presumably it knows where it is. If NTP is decoding the GPRMC message, it has the lat/lon in it, so how can I get that info out (in a command line utility, into a file, or some such) I don't need millisecond time accuracy.. For now the GPS is just to make sure that the time is right. The GPGGA sentence would also do. And, I only need the GPS position once within a 30 second interval (it's not moving, I just want to know where it is). It's not like ntpd or ntpq have some handy switch that says display current lat/lon (which makes sense, because NTP is fundamentally time source agnostic). All of this with Windows 7. Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS-18, Windows, NTP Lat Lon
On 9/3/13 5:35 PM, Jim Lux wrote: I'm looking for an easy way to get current lat lon, when you've got a GPS-18 hooked up for NTP. That is, the GPS receiver is there doing it's NTP thing, so presumably it knows where it is. If NTP is decoding the GPRMC message, it has the lat/lon in it, so how can I get that info out (in a command line utility, into a file, or some such) I don't need millisecond time accuracy.. For now the GPS is just to make sure that the time is right. The GPGGA sentence would also do. And, I only need the GPS position once within a 30 second interval (it's not moving, I just want to know where it is). It's not like ntpd or ntpq have some handy switch that says display current lat/lon (which makes sense, because NTP is fundamentally time source agnostic). All of this with Windows 7. I suppose one way is to turn off NTP (releasing the com port), grab some data from the com port, parse it, then turn NTP back on. But that seems mighty clunky... I was hoping for some log file/debug feature that says give me the last sentence from the GPS. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers
Paul, Actually, I don't know about the jumper issue. I think it worked with the jumpers 'as they were'. The thread was on the HP/Agilent group. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 6:45 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers Joe On the 3325 I will also bet they had to change a jumper next to each socket. HP was quite good about that. I just did sort of teh same fix on my HP54100d that simply forgot. Lucky for me after 3 years of hunting someone finally put a good set on Diddiers site. Regards Paul. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 7:38 PM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote: There was a recent, fairly long, 'conversation' about the 3325A and resurrecting it from a failed EPROM (and other problems, I think) that ultimately was resolved by replacing the four Synertek 32K EPROM's with two MCM68766 64K EPROM's. From what I have been told, it was a simple matter of removing the four 32K EPROM's from positions U1, U2, U3 and U4 on the A6 Board and inserting the two 64K EPROM's at positions U1 and U2. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 9:59 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers On 9/2/13 7:50 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: Why do we hardly ever talk about synthesizers - those boxes that turn 10 MHz into other frequencies? We do.. there's a fair amount of talk about boxes like the PTS synthesizers. And there's been talk about 866x series synths, and perhaps the 3325, although I'd have to go search to be sure. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
- Original Message - From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net To: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case On 9/3/13 11:21 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 5225f8af.60...@earthlink.net, Jim Lux writes: In this case, all the messages were presumably handled by the same carrier, so the issue of skew in timestamps is negligible; Anything but. The text-messages are likely stamped by the SS7-message-gateway and the 911 call by the countys 911 equipment. I was assuming (with no real basis, I realize) that the 911 call time came from the cell equipment, rather than the Public Safety Answering Point log. The PSAP log would have no particular reason to be synced to the carrier equipment. It could well be what time was on the watch of the guy starting the equipment, although these days, one would *think* that they use something like NTP to set the system time. However, given my frustrated experience trying to get folks doing testbeds and ground support equipment here at JPL to *please* synchronize your computers meaningfully so we can merge logs, I wouldn't count on it. Or maybe they sync once every 24 hours. In Maryland, all the 911 PSAPs have GPS clocks and everything (clocks, consoles, computers, logging recorders, etc.) is locked to GPS time. As far as I know, that is the NENA national standard in the US. Regards, Tom ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS-18, Windows, NTP Lat Lon
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: I'm looking for an easy way to get current lat lon, when you've got a GPS-18 hooked up for NTP. That is, the GPS receiver is there doing it's NTP thing, so presumably it knows where it is. If NTP is decoding the GPRMC message, it has the lat/lon in it, so how can I get that info out (in a command line utility, into a file, or some such) I don't need millisecond time accuracy.. For now the GPS is just to make sure that the time is right. The GPGGA sentence would also do. And, I only need the GPS position once within a 30 second interval (it's not moving, I just want to know where it is). I would strongly suggest GPSd. It will open the COM port, to auto-detection of speed and model of device, and you can use the builtin utilities to spit out Lat/Lon, Time, number of satellites, etc. A full screen monitor is available: gpsmon. GPSd is: http://catb.org/gpsd/ All of this with Windows 7. This is an old port, but should still work: - http://code.google.com/p/gpsd-4-win/ - See also: http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/travelingsales/index.php?title=Howto/gpsd_on_windows -- Sanjeev Gupta +65 98551208 http://www.linkedin.com/in/ghane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS-18, Windows, NTP Lat Lon
One very direct way is to find some software to sniff the com port where the GPS receiver is. I'm a Linux guy, so I can't help you on that one. Bob - AE6RV From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 7:35 PM Subject: [time-nuts] GPS-18, Windows, NTP Lat Lon I'm looking for an easy way to get current lat lon, when you've got a GPS-18 hooked up for NTP. That is, the GPS receiver is there doing it's NTP thing, so presumably it knows where it is. If NTP is decoding the GPRMC message, it has the lat/lon in it, so how can I get that info out (in a command line utility, into a file, or some such) I don't need millisecond time accuracy.. For now the GPS is just to make sure that the time is right. The GPGGA sentence would also do. And, I only need the GPS position once within a 30 second interval (it's not moving, I just want to know where it is). It's not like ntpd or ntpq have some handy switch that says display current lat/lon (which makes sense, because NTP is fundamentally time source agnostic). All of this with Windows 7. Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS-18, Windows, NTP Lat Lon
How about a serial port spy/monitor program. There are some free ones like: http://www.serial-port-monitor.com/ Brian On 9/4/2013 01:30, Bob Stewart wrote: One very direct way is to find some software to sniff the com port where the GPS receiver is. I'm a Linux guy, so I can't help you on that one. Bob - AE6RV From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 7:35 PM Subject: [time-nuts] GPS-18, Windows, NTP Lat Lon I'm looking for an easy way to get current lat lon, when you've got a GPS-18 hooked up for NTP. That is, the GPS receiver is there doing it's NTP thing, so presumably it knows where it is. If NTP is decoding the GPRMC message, it has the lat/lon in it, so how can I get that info out (in a command line utility, into a file, or some such) I don't need millisecond time accuracy.. For now the GPS is just to make sure that the time is right. The GPGGA sentence would also do. And, I only need the GPS position once within a 30 second interval (it's not moving, I just want to know where it is). It's not like ntpd or ntpq have some handy switch that says display current lat/lon (which makes sense, because NTP is fundamentally time source agnostic). All of this with Windows 7. Jim - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3222/6134 - Release Date: 09/03/13 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS-18, Windows, NTP Lat Lon
Wouldn't turning off ntp drive it nuts? At the risk of throwing out the bone head answer and assuming this isn't going on your next space craft, you could just split the GPS serial (my quick google showed the 18 to be the serial unit vs usb) signal and run a copy to another comm port.. Yeah - I'm pretty sure you had already thrown that idea out.. Brent On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 9/3/13 5:35 PM, Jim Lux wrote: I'm looking for an easy way to get current lat lon, when you've got a GPS-18 hooked up for NTP. That is, the GPS receiver is there doing it's NTP thing, so presumably it knows where it is. If NTP is decoding the GPRMC message, it has the lat/lon in it, so how can I get that info out (in a command line utility, into a file, or some such) I don't need millisecond time accuracy.. For now the GPS is just to make sure that the time is right. The GPGGA sentence would also do. And, I only need the GPS position once within a 30 second interval (it's not moving, I just want to know where it is). It's not like ntpd or ntpq have some handy switch that says display current lat/lon (which makes sense, because NTP is fundamentally time source agnostic). All of this with Windows 7. I suppose one way is to turn off NTP (releasing the com port), grab some data from the com port, parse it, then turn NTP back on. But that seems mighty clunky... I was hoping for some log file/debug feature that says give me the last sentence from the GPS. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers
Ah the 8660's Image 22 8660A's in two racks, was an fun tax payer, paid project :-) We where never told what the master clock was. Have S/N suffix 0009 in the garage. For you time nuts, a side hobby should be frequency nuts. How to produce the cleanest synth'ed signal but be able to change it quickly. Made a few companies a lot of money and challenged engineers. It was quite the challenge in the late 60's into the 70's. There were two types of cusomers. Those that wanted uS switching time vs. those that didn't care. Nothing inbetween. -pete On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 7:43 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Pete A shame we did not meet a few years ago I had 2 1164s. Both working and cranky. Often thought about using modern technology per decade. Anyhow you could have been the proud owner of both of them for that magical box we send back and forth. As it was I darnear gave them a way for a song at a hamfest. I do have a 8660c and fluke 6060. Both work very well and I use them often. I am familiar with the old HP now thats a serious boat anchor. I assume you picked up both the source and the gen it was a 2 unit gizmo. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Pete Lancashire p...@petelancashire.com wrote: The one mix and match synth I've not got working is my HP 5100B/5110B. It came to me for the price of about 15 gallons of gas, and day on the road. Was stored in a unheated shop for at least two decades, if not three. Why have one ? .. Goes with the GR1161, 1162, (No 1164 or 68 yet), PTS 160, Monsanto 3100A, Fluke 6160B, etc. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 7:14 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Bill I guess technology moved along. I think of the mix type of syn like genrad made 1164 maybe. Son of a guns to keep working and I think they are noisey. Granted in the day they were not bad for what they were doing. You could emulate much in todays technology. But I think cost becomes an issue. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net wrote: Why do we hardly ever talk about synthesizers - those boxes that turn 10 MHz into other frequencies? Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS-18, Windows, NTP Lat Lon
On 9/3/13 6:47 PM, brent evers wrote: Wouldn't turning off ntp drive it nuts? At the risk of throwing out the bone head answer and assuming this isn't going on your next space craft, you could just split the GPS serial (my quick google showed the 18 to be the serial unit vs usb) signal and run a copy to another comm port.. Yeah - I'm pretty sure you had already thrown that idea out.. No.. that's a great idea.. I've got plenty of hardware serial ports.. Doh.. here I was trying to figure out if COM0COM or some similar com port emulator/tee program would work, etc. Excellent Idea. (and no, you don't have to worry about crashing into Europa because of this...) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers
On 9/3/13 7:14 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: Ah the 8660's Image 22 8660A's in two racks, was an fun tax payer, paid project :-) We where never told what the master clock was. Have S/N suffix 0009 in the garage. For you time nuts, a side hobby should be frequency nuts. How to produce the cleanest synth'ed signal but be able to change it quickly. Made a few companies a lot of money and challenged engineers. It was quite the challenge in the late 60's into the 70's. There were two types of cusomers. Those that wanted uS switching time vs. those that didn't care. Nothing inbetween. When I was doing electronic warfare stuff in the 80s, microsecond switching was the order of the day, and PTS was our friend. Nothing like direct synthesis (mix and add) for speed. Waiting for the PLL to settle was for casual use. As you say, either you need it or you don't, and there's not much demand for settle in milliseconds. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Synthesizers
I have four PTS synthesizers. They're the bees knees... fixed up an Arduino interface to control 3 of them. The fourth is a special that I got through careless ebay picture and text analysis; good for some parts. Don Jim Lux On 9/3/13 7:14 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: Ah the 8660's Image 22 8660A's in two racks, was an fun tax payer, paid project :-) We where never told what the master clock was. Have S/N suffix 0009 in the garage. For you time nuts, a side hobby should be frequency nuts. How to produce the cleanest synth'ed signal but be able to change it quickly. Made a few companies a lot of money and challenged engineers. It was quite the challenge in the late 60's into the 70's. There were two types of cusomers. Those that wanted uS switching time vs. those that didn't care. Nothing inbetween. When I was doing electronic warfare stuff in the 80s, microsecond switching was the order of the day, and PTS was our friend. Nothing like direct synthesis (mix and add) for speed. Waiting for the PLL to settle was for casual use. As you say, either you need it or you don't, and there's not much demand for settle in milliseconds. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -George Bernard Shaw Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS-18, Windows, NTP Lat Lon
This question might be more appropriate for the NTP list at questi...@lists.ntp.org. Assuming you are using GPS 18 NMEA output and NMEA driver 20, set the statsdir either using the startup command line option -s or the conf command statsdir, as shown below, and enable clockstats: appends the $GPRMC message every poll interval e.g. minpoll 4 maxpoll 4 = 16s ~ 5400 lines/day. For example: ntpd ... -s c:/etc/ntp/stats -c c:/etc/ntp.conf ... OR in c:/etc/ntp.conf statsdir c:/etc/ntp/stats AND enable stats statistics clockstats loopstats peerstats # ref-clock drivers server 127.127.20.n prefer minpoll 4 maxpoll 4 ... On 2013-09-03 18:42, Jim Lux wrote: On 9/3/13 5:35 PM, Jim Lux wrote: I'm looking for an easy way to get current lat lon, when you've got a GPS-18 hooked up for NTP. That is, the GPS receiver is there doing it's NTP thing, so presumably it knows where it is. If NTP is decoding the GPRMC message, it has the lat/lon in it, so how can I get that info out (in a command line utility, into a file, or some such) I don't need millisecond time accuracy.. For now the GPS is just to make sure that the time is right. The GPGGA sentence would also do. And, I only need the GPS position once within a 30 second interval (it's not moving, I just want to know where it is). It's not like ntpd or ntpq have some handy switch that says display current lat/lon (which makes sense, because NTP is fundamentally time source agnostic). All of this with Windows 7. I suppose one way is to turn off NTP (releasing the com port), grab some data from the com port, parse it, then turn NTP back on. But that seems mighty clunky... I was hoping for some log file/debug feature that says give me the last sentence from the GPS. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 6:19 AM, Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote: Does it help if we both have GPS? Both have cesium(s) in the back seat? Since the GPS communicates over Radio Frequencies, please ensure it is capable of hands-free operation while you are operating the vehicle. Next, Lady Heather has to be modified to allow voice operation. -- Sanjeev Gupta +65 98551208 http://www.linkedin.com/in/ghane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
