Re: [time-nuts] HP 10638A degausser
I did the replacement degausser you found the zip file for. I use it for my 5061s quite successfully. It fairly closely duplicates the time and current profiles used by the original. If you have any questions, please ask. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller
My favorite for many uses is the Freescale MC68HC908QT4, or others in that series. Freescale provides a complete C development environment for free. The QT4 is an 8-pin package, with up to 6 I/O pins. I've used it for everything from a 555 timer replacement to the controller for an RPM meter, to the controller for a GPS/Rb/xtal freqency standard. Of course, for many purposes it doesn't particularly matter whose chip you use, as long as the tools are adequate. There are any number of choices, including the PIC line, which everyone but me seems to love. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. John Miles wrote: It's sort of a religious matter, but if you are looking for an easy-to-use part with great, free C/C++ support, you'd most likely be happy with the AtMEGA series. -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [[2]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 11:06 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller Bruce, Yes that's exactly my plan. No GPS and designed for field use. A halfway decent crystal with interpolation from 1 PPS timestamps should provide decent results. And anything else I can dream up. Bottom line is I need to know which micro-controller to embrace. Thanks Didier for your suggestion. Any others? Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [4]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 4. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller
As the one who made the first comment about not liking the PIC, I'll give you my reasons. Yes, they are philosophical, even religious. I'm also distinguishing between microprocessors (this discussion) and other variants, such as DSPs, FPLDs, etc. First, I've used a very large number of different micros over the years for both 'real' work and my own purposes, starting with the Intel 8008 before it was commercially released. I've used Intel, TI, Motorola, Zilog, MOS Tech processors of multiple families, and yes, even PICs, all with wildly varying architectures. These days, given modern development tools, the architecture of a general-purpose micro really isn't particularly relevant. It's functionality and support tools that are important. Without a doubt, PIC made it possible for many hobbyists to put together nice projects that they would not necessarily have been able to do otherwise. My deep-seated revulsion comes from one source, and it's not the architecture, the company, or the capabilities of the chips. It's Basic, the language. Until relatively recently, PIC and Basic were almost synonymous, at least for the masses. I have both EE and CS degrees, and I work in both worlds. In my humble (but completely accurate and stable) opinion, Basic is not a programming language. It's a tool of Satan designed to convince people that they are programmers when they really should stick to their janitorial duties. This is a subset of the general problem that everyone thinks they are programmers, and usually think their code is perfect. But, that's a rant for a different audience. So, for me, given that there are some very good C development tools for mainstream processors, and frequently they are free, I just don't use PICs. As I mentioned earlier, I currently like the Motorola (I mean, Freescale; these silly name changes are yet another rant) MC68HCxx line; there's a wide choice of features and they can be flashed easily without a complicated programmer. The 8-pin xx908QT4 is a buck and does a fine job for many purposes, and most importantly, you can get a nice C development environment for the line, which was originally from CodeWarrior, for free. It also supports the entire line, from 8-bit to 32-bit, and with builtin support for all of the various on-chip 'peripherals'. Even now, I don't think Microchip provides a compiler that supports the low-end chips, but I haven't checked lately. But, when you get right down to it, you really need to pick the proper solution for your problem. If there was something the PICs provided that I couldn't get elsewhere, I'd use them. Religion is fine, but getting the job done is more important. BTW, for those that think you can't do anything with an 8-pin 8-bit micro, I did one design that supports an LCD, a rotary encoder, a Hall-effect sensor, and a button. At home, I use the same chip in every light switch in my house to implement a self-tuning capacitance sense switch. I even use a couple for a more time-nuts related tasks. One provides loop control for my GPS/Rb/Quartz standard, and one is used as a 555 timer replacement in my SmartClock->PC interface. (Ok, I was in a hurry, needed a pulse stretcher, and I didn't have any 555's lying around) Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > In a message dated 16/08/2008 01:11:09 GMT Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > The PIC... I have no nice words for the PIC. It's a CPU architecture > kept alive by Donald Rumsfeld himself (He was the CEO of G.I. back in > the '70's), and surely he must have made a deal with the Devil to > make it as successful as it is. How's that for a religious > argument? :-) > > > - > LOL > > Keeping it secular, what's with the PIC bashing? > > Surely it's a case of horses for courses, and there's been enough successful > commercial, as well as hobby, products based on PICs to suggest you might be > just a wee bit out of touch with some parts of the real world:-) > > regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller
You certainly don't need formal training to be a good programmer; I've seen plenty of code from CS grads that's terrible, and very nice code from art majors. In my book, a good program is one one that's organized logically, well documented, and performs the job it was designed to do. A god programmer is someone that produces such programs. That's it. The problem is that, with the advent PCs and easily-accessible programming tools, everyone thinks they can write code, and many can't. Then what you end up with is a tangled mess that's unmaintainable and indecipherable. It's interesting that any number of EE's will take great care in circuit design, but then throw together some poorly-designed code to run their beautiful circuit. But, this has been endemic in the hardware industry for as long as I've been around. Hardware companies frequently have the attitude that it's the hardware that's important and the software is just one of those minor bits that has to get tacked on. This was true even for some companies that should have known better; there were plenty of HW engineers I ran into back in the old Digital days that, even though they were building minicomputers, really considered software an unfortunate requirement that had to be shipped with their beautiful hardware. Ah well, this is really wandering off-topic and my blood pressure's going up. I think I'll go write some C code for an 8-bit micro to calm down. And yes, I use vi. :) Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Scott Newell wrote: At 07:36 AM 8/16/2008, wje wrote: I have both EE and CS degrees, and I work in both worlds. In my humble (but completely accurate and stable) opinion, Basic is not a programming language. It's a tool of Satan designed to convince people that they are programmers when they really should stick to their janitorial duties. This is a subset of the general problem that everyone thinks they are programmers, and usually think their code is perfect. But, that's a rant for a different audience. So, how do you tell if you're not a programmer, but pretending to be one? My code is far from perfect, but it can usually be made to get the job done. I try not to cut too many corners, and the ones that I do cut bother me. But when you're the lone programmer on projects, it's hard to know if you're crummy or decent, since there's no one to measure against. (Of course, there's the metric of 'product shipped, product works, bossman happy, paycheck cashed', but that doesn't distinguish between good and bad programmers, just programmers that can fool others along with themselves.) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller
Well, yes, it was. The first computer I actually owned was a PDP-8, essentially stolen in pieces from the DEC scrapyard. Core memory, who would have imagined that it would actually work? I mean, you could actually see the bits. And it had blinking lights, too. I still insist a computer isn't a real computer without blinking lights. Which leads to yet another little side diversion... there was some really fantastic hardware done back in the '70s and '80s, without the benefit of DSPs, FPGAs, or microprocessors that had more power than a modern wristwatch. I love reconditioning equipment from that era, and it's remarkable what could be done with a handful of discrete components that today is done with a million transistors worth of ICs. My oldest working device is a 5061A from '68, not counting useless things like my saturated-cell voltage standard; my favorite is a tie between my HP 5370A and my Solartron 7081 laboratory dvm. Another little gem (in my opinion at least) is the Polarad 632 spectrum analyzer. They're not exceptional by any modern measure, but they're dirt-cheap and do manage better than 120 db noise floor and a 10 Khz to 2 Ghz range. Plus, they have a nifty discrete IC digital video capture board that does scan storage, scan averaging, and peak detection, all without a single microprocessor in sight. Which reminds me, what happened to all that wonderful European engineering from companies like Datron and Solartron? Their equipment frequently beat the pants off of anything we were doing at that time (as I gaze lovingly at my pair of Datron 4910's). Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Dave Mallery wrote: bill but wasn't that hardware beautiful??? (gazes at 11/70 backplane on wall...) dave On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:10 AM, wje [1]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You certainly don't need formal training to be a good programmer; I've seen plenty of code from CS grads that's terrible, and very nice code from art majors. In my book, a good program is one one that's organized logically, well documented, and performs the job it was designed to do. A god programmer is someone that produces such programs. That's it. The problem is that, with the advent PCs and easily-accessible programming tools, everyone thinks they can write code, and many can't. Then what you end up with is a tangled mess that's unmaintainable and indecipherable. It's interesting that any number of EE's will take great care in circuit design, but then throw together some poorly-designed code to run their beautiful circuit. But, this has been endemic in the hardware industry for as long as I've been around. Hardware companies frequently have the attitude that it's the hardware that's important and the software is just one of those minor bits that has to get tacked on. This was true even for some companies that should have known better; there were plenty of HW engineers I ran into back in the old Digital days that, even though they were building minicomputers, really considered software an unfortunate requirement that had to be shipped with their beautiful hardware. Ah well, this is really wandering off-topic and my blood pressure's going up. I think I'll go write some C code for an 8-bit micro to calm down. And yes, I use vi. :) Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Scott Newell wrote: At 07:36 AM 8/16/2008, wje wrote: I have both EE and CS degrees, and I work in both worlds. In my humble (but completely accurate and stable) opinion, Basic is not a programming language. It's a tool of Satan designed to convince people that they are programmers when they really should stick to their janitorial duties. This is a subset of the general problem that everyone thinks they are programmers, and usually think their code is perfect. But, that's a rant for a different audience. So, how do you tell if you're not a programmer, but pretending to be one? My code is far from perfect, but it can usually be made to get the job done. I try not to cut too many corners, and the ones that I do cut bother me. But when you're the lone programmer on projects, it's hard to know if you're crummy or decent, since there's no one to measure against. (Of course, there's the metric of 'product shipped, product works, bossman happy, paycheck cashed', but that doesn't distinguish between good and bad programmers, just programmers that can fool others along with themselves.) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [3]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions t
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061A problem
If you install the second unit, your 5061A still won't work. +20v at the sensor output will signal the ion current monitor to shut down the electron multiplier supply. If you have some high-value resistors around, can you make up a test 200M resistor string? If so, see what happens when that's connected across 4 & 5 of the first 3500 v supply. However, even with the failure case you describe with the first unit, I'd expect your 5061A to still work at least for a short time. Do you have beam current? If not, you might have other problems as well. Check the voltage at A15 pin 4. You should have +18 v or so. If not, more troubleshooting is in order. The danger running without a working ion pump, though, is that at eventually you'll damage the electron multiplier. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Morris Odell wrote: > Hi all, > > My 5061A has failed and I've isolated the problem to a faulty A18, the +3500 > volt ion pump power supply. > > The existing one has almost certainly has had the internal 200M resistor go > open as the output voltage is about 5 kV and it does not decay quickly when > the power is off. The output voltage to the current sensing circuit is 0. > > I have a replacement which I suspect is faulty - when energised from a +18 > volt source it only produces 2 kV which decays quickly and the sensor output > is +20 when the thing is unloaded. That 200M resistor may have gone low! Is > this one worth installing ie: will +2 kV pump enough ions? > > So I'm looking for a replacement or advice from anyone who may have > attempted to repair one. > > If anyone has a parts donor of course I'd be happy to pay appropriately > including shipping down here to Australia. > > Morris > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061A problem
Possibly, but from what I remember, the real issue is erosion of the EM dynode surfaces from the high level of ion bombarment, resulting in reduced output and lower S/N, and eventually such low multiplication that the tube is considered 'failed'. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Per the last statement in the message below: > > "The danger running without a working ion pump, though, is that at > eventually you'll damage the electron multiplier." > > Is it correct to presume then that the EM becomes covered in > "cesium splatter" and thus the S/N output gets poor? > > -Brian, WA1ZMS > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of wje > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:43 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061A problem > > > If you install the second unit, your 5061A still won't work. +20v at the > sensor output will signal the ion current monitor to shut down the > electron multiplier supply. > > If you have some high-value resistors around, can you make up a test > 200M resistor string? If so, see what happens when that's connected > across 4 & 5 of the first 3500 v supply. > > However, even with the failure case you describe with the first unit, > I'd expect your 5061A to still work at least for a short time. Do you > have beam current? If not, you might have other problems as well. Check > the voltage at A15 pin 4. You should have +18 v or so. If not, more > troubleshooting is in order. > > > > Bill Ezell > -- > They said 'Windows or better' > so I used Linux. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Odetics 325 & 425: File recovery
Rsync works quite well on both Linux and Windows. I use it to back up my lab computer (XP), my work computer (Vista, unfortunately), several family computers (XP), and my primary Linux system. There's an excellent bit of freeware, Delta Copy, that provides rsync for the Windows side, either on command or via scheduled tasks. Another big benefit of rsync is that it does intelligent backups, only backing up what's changed. BTW, a raid array is a really good idea, too. I back up everything from the primary Linux box to an Infrant/Netgrar ReadyNAS 1Tb raid 5 box, also via rsync. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Didier Juges wrote: The problem nowadays is not the storage, it's the backup software. I have most of my important data in 4 places: two web sites, main 250 GB hard drive and external 500GB Western Digital USB Hard Drive (highly recommended). What I call "important data" is about 30 GB worth of stuff that is typically copied in all 4 places. The problem is keeping everything in sync. Syncing between two local resources (main hard drive and USB hard drive) is not too hard, considering the transfer speed that can be achieved, but mirroring the web resources is a pain, partly because of speed and partly because of OS differences in file name rules (Windows/Linux). I have not found the software I wanted (only looked at free/cheap stuff) so I am considering writing my own (Visual Basic). If anyone has suggestions for free/cheap commercial or FOS software to sync via ftp (Windows <-> Linux), I'll be glad to hear. Didier KO4BB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [[2]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 12:46 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odetics 325 & 425: File recovery I'm still picking up the pieces from a major FTP archive crash that lost me a considerable amount of data. Disks are cheap. Many years ago, one of the guys I worked with pointed out to me/us that it was cheaper to buy more disks than it was to pay us at our normal sallary to figure out which bits should be saved. You can do a lot of handwaving in that area, but that's the general idea. My straw man for low cost backup is a USB disk. I'm thinking of a real rotating disk rather than the typical flash "disk". The key idea is that after you pull the cable, your system can't trash the bits. That is neither software nor fat fingers will delete anything. It isn't perfect, but it's close and simple. Any interesting bits should be backed up multiple ways. If any time-nuts have bits that aren't (well) backed up, please contact me off line so we can work out some way to add another backup copy to the system. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [4]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [6]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 4. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 5. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 6. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] another 5061A question
I just did an oven rebuild on mine. It can be straightforward or not, depending upon what has failed. However, if your unit locks and stays locked, the oven is most likely at least partially working. The VCO loop capture range is very small and it doesn't take a great deal of temperature variation to lose lock. Check your control voltage reading and monitor it over time. If that's varying a lot, you may have an oven issue. Mine stays within about +/- 5 of the setpoint. The meter is across the series regulator for the heater. Mine starts pegged and drops to 46 over about 30 minutes. If you aren't seeing any variation, I'd suspect a problem in the oven loop control. You can easily take the osc out and run it on the bench. Just apply +18v to '20' and '24', using the case as ground. The power driver for the heater is on the pcb at the end of the can with the connectors. Note - be really careful to not connect power to the '+15' pin. This is not an input. It connects to a 15 v Zener in the oven cavity, which will immediately vaporize. Yes, I learned this the hard way. Popular failure points seem to be the series pass transistor for the heater, the 4.7 ohm emitter resistor, and the fusible links for the proportional heater and the quick-heat heater. But, if you actually do have a problem, I'd be more inclined to suspect the thermistor bridge circuitry, which is on a pcb at the other end of the can. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Morris Odell wrote: > Hi all, > > As I wrote the other day, I got the 5061A going again and it hasn't missed a > beat. > > One thing I have noticed though, is that the Osc Oven indication on the > meter doesn't change at all as the unit warms up as the manual mentions it > should. It remains on 45. The unit itself is a 105-6013 and gets warm and > seems to function OK. Is this normal? I know these ovens have a 115V > preheater which might be working even if the proportional heater is not. > > The schematic shows that in the Osc Oven position the meter is connected > across the heater in series with a thermal link. Does the absence of any > variation mean that the heater or link is open or is the preheater keeping > it close enough to temp so that the heater doesn't work too hard? How hard > is it to open it up? > > Unfortunately it's back on the rack and another project is on the bench. It > might have to stay that way for a week or three, so there's no hurry to get > back into it. > > Cheers to all, > > Morris > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A C-field trimer ??
There's a small hole on the side of the case. This is the trimmer access, at least on mine. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. EMMANOUIL MANTZARAS wrote: > Hi > Is there any one that knows where is the c-field trimer in the FE-5680A board > ?? > Thanks > sv1bke > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A C-field trimer ??
Unless you can measure the frequency to at least a few parts in 10e10, you won't see any change. These devices are far more precise than standard frequency counters. You either need something like an HP 5370 or 5371 to measure the difference, or another equally precise oscillator to compare against using a phase meter or your oscilloscope. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Rex wrote: Have you adjusted it? I tried tweaking that pot on one I had and I didn't see any effect. wje wrote: There's a small hole on the side of the case. This is the trimmer access, at least on mine. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. EMMANOUIL MANTZARAS wrote: Hi Is there any one that knows where is the c-field trimer in the FE-5680A board ?? Thanks sv1bke ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [2]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 2. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A C-field trimer ??
Yes, I forgot about those. If I remember correctly, a -20 option has DDS. It's sometimes hard to tell which one you have without opening it up. My 5680A came from an EBay auction where the seller claimed it was programmable. It wasn't. It has the non-DDS 10 Mhz sine output. However, I think that if the pot is installed, you have an adjustable C-field. I'm not positive about this, though. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Brian Kirby wrote: There are several models of the 5680A. A lot use the DDS circuits to set the output frequencies and they do not have C field adjustments. Brian - KD4FM wje wrote: Unless you can measure the frequency to at least a few parts in 10e10, you won't see any change. These devices are far more precise than standard frequency counters. You either need something like an HP 5370 or 5371 to measure the difference, or another equally precise oscillator to compare against using a phase meter or your oscilloscope. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Rex wrote: Have you adjusted it? I tried tweaking that pot on one I had and I didn't see any effect. wje wrote: There's a small hole on the side of the case. This is the trimmer access, at least on mine. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. EMMANOUIL MANTZARAS wrote: Hi Is there any one that knows where is the c-field trimer in the FE-5680A board ?? Thanks sv1bke ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [2][2]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-n uts and follow the instructions there. References 1. [3]mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 2. [4]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [6]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [8]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 3. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 4. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 5. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 6. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 7. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 8. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-NET, HP 5370A, HP5334A problem?
I just got one of the new networked GPIB controllers, and I've been having some issues. I'm not sure if it's the Prologix or the instruments, or both. With the 5370A, I can get samples for some period of time ranging from about 2 to 4 hours before the GPIB controller stops responding. I suspect this one might be the 5370A -488 controller bug I've heard of. However, there is no way to recover without power-cycling the Prologix. Even if this is the 5370A, the Prologix should really have an asynchronous reset capability. With the 5334A, I can get samples for as long as I want, no problem. However, if I set the 5334A to 'WA1' mode, which is supposed to wait until the counter is addressed before taking each sample, what happens is that I can read one value. Every successive read returns the same value; the 5334A never triggers for a new sample. Either I don't understand the behavior of WA1, although HP's sample program indicates that what I've described is proper, or there is some incompatibility between the Prologix and the 5334A. Unfortunately, the documentation for the Prologix is scanty at best. There is no description of the actual IEEE-488 handshake process that's going on. For example, does the Prologix do an unlisten after a read? The HP docs seem to indicate that in WA1 mode, a sample starts when the 5334A is addressed. So, if it's never unlistened, perhaps it never takes a new sample? Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-NET, HP 5370A, HP5334A problem?
YI don't use read-after-write, and I explicitly set it off before reading. However, I did try it once just for fun, and it does work as expected. The 5334 doesn't seem to assert eoi, so I do a '++read 10', which works just fine except for the WA1 strangeness. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Prologix wrote: > Bill, > > How are you reading from 5334A? Is the read-after-write mode OFF? > I recommend the following sequence: > > ++auto 0 -- turn off read-after-write > ++read eoi-- read until EOI is asserted by the instrument > ++read eoi > > > (If your instrument does not assert EOI, specify a character to terminate > ++read command. See manual for details.) > > Yes, ++read will address the instrument to talk, read any output, and then > address it to listen. > > We are testing an update that resets the controller if it detects a hung > GPIB bus. I can send that to you offline. > > Regards, > Abdul > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of wje > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:12 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-NET, HP 5370A, HP5334A problem? > > I just got one of the new networked GPIB controllers, and I've been > having some issues. I'm not sure if it's the Prologix or the > instruments, or both. > > With the 5370A, I can get samples for some period of time ranging from > about 2 to 4 hours before the GPIB controller stops responding. I > suspect this one might be the 5370A -488 controller bug I've heard of. > However, there is no way to recover without power-cycling the Prologix. > Even if this is the 5370A, the Prologix should really have an > asynchronous reset capability. > > With the 5334A, I can get samples for as long as I want, no problem. > However, if I set the 5334A to 'WA1' mode, which is supposed to wait > until the counter is addressed before taking each sample, what happens > is that I can read one value. Every successive read returns the same > value; the 5334A never triggers for a new sample. Either I don't > understand the behavior of WA1, although HP's sample program indicates > that what I've described is proper, or there is some incompatibility > between the Prologix and the 5334A. > > Unfortunately, the documentation for the Prologix is scanty at best. > There is no description of the actual IEEE-488 handshake process that's > going on. For example, does the Prologix do an unlisten after a read? > The HP docs seem to indicate that in WA1 mode, a sample starts when the > 5334A is addressed. So, if it's never unlistened, perhaps it never takes > a new sample? > > Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-NET, HP 5370A, HP5334A problem?
If the 5370A problem is actually the 5370A gpib controller bug, then I don't think it can be reproduced with the 5370B; I'm pretty sure that was fixed in the B model. However, if you want to give it a try, here's what I do (you'll have to interpret, but it should be pretty clear): Sorry for the strange syntax, but that's for a Java control program I originally wrote to talk to my Solartron 7081 meter. The program is just sending out the literal string in the Sends, terminated with a newline. The Read command is sending '++read 10'. The timeout in the Read has nothing to do with the Prologix timeout, that's a timeout handled by my interpreter. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. John Miles wrote: I just got one of the new networked GPIB controllers, and I've been having some issues. I'm not sure if it's the Prologix or the instruments, or both. With the 5370A, I can get samples for some period of time ranging from about 2 to 4 hours before the GPIB controller stops responding. I suspect this one might be the 5370A -488 controller bug I've heard of. However, there is no way to recover without power-cycling the Prologix. Even if this is the 5370A, the Prologix should really have an asynchronous reset capability. With the 5334A, I can get samples for as long as I want, no problem. However, if I set the 5334A to 'WA1' mode, which is supposed to wait until the counter is addressed before taking each sample, what happens is that I can read one value. Every successive read returns the same value; the 5334A never triggers for a new sample. Either I don't understand the behavior of WA1, although HP's sample program indicates that what I've described is proper, or there is some incompatibility between the Prologix and the 5334A. Unfortunately, the documentation for the Prologix is scanty at best. There is no description of the actual IEEE-488 handshake process that's going on. For example, does the Prologix do an unlisten after a read? The HP docs seem to indicate that in WA1 mode, a sample starts when the 5334A is addressed. So, if it's never unlistened, perhaps it never takes a new sample? Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Bill, what commands and queries are you using with the 5370A? I have a couple of those new Prologix LAN dongles here and could try to repro it here on my 5370B, if it turns out that Abdul needs to see it happen in person. I don't have a 5334A, but it might help to send it a ++trg trigger command. If not, you'd probably need to switch auto-read mode off for that one, and use manual ++read commands. -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [2]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 2. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-NET, HP 5370A, HP5334A problem?
That does the trick, thanks. Interestingly, the HP manual doesn't discuss group-execute-trigger at all. It's possible that the HP-85 programmable controllers would do a trigger before a read; all of the examples in the 5334A manual are written for that controller. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Prologix wrote: You could try explicitly triggering with ++trg followed by ++read 10. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [[2]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wje Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:14 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-NET, HP 5370A, HP5334A problem? YI don't use read-after-write, and I explicitly set it off before reading. However, I did try it once just for fun, and it does work as expected. The 5334 doesn't seem to assert eoi, so I do a '++read 10', which works just fine except for the WA1 strangeness. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Prologix wrote: Bill, How are you reading from 5334A? Is the read-after-write mode OFF? I recommend the following sequence: ++auto 0-- turn off read-after-write ++read eoi -- read until EOI is asserted by the instrument ++read eoi (If your instrument does not assert EOI, specify a character to terminate ++read command. See manual for details.) Yes, ++read will address the instrument to talk, read any output, and then address it to listen. We are testing an update that resets the controller if it detects a hung GPIB bus. I can send that to you offline. Regards, Abdul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [[4]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wje Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:12 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-NET, HP 5370A, HP5334A problem? I just got one of the new networked GPIB controllers, and I've been having some issues. I'm not sure if it's the Prologix or the instruments, or both. With the 5370A, I can get samples for some period of time ranging from about 2 to 4 hours before the GPIB controller stops responding. I suspect this one might be the 5370A -488 controller bug I've heard of. However, there is no way to recover without power-cycling the Prologix. Even if this is the 5370A, the Prologix should really have an asynchronous reset capability. With the 5334A, I can get samples for as long as I want, no problem. However, if I set the 5334A to 'WA1' mode, which is supposed to wait until the counter is addressed before taking each sample, what happens is that I can read one value. Every successive read returns the same value; the 5334A never triggers for a new sample. Either I don't understand the behavior of WA1, although HP's sample program indicates that what I've described is proper, or there is some incompatibility between the Prologix and the 5334A. Unfortunately, the documentation for the Prologix is scanty at best. There is no description of the actual IEEE-488 handshake process that's going on. For example, does the Prologix do an unlisten after a read? The HP docs seem to indicate that in WA1 mode, a sample starts when the 5334A is addressed. So, if it's never unlistened, perhaps it never takes a new sample? Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [6]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [8]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 4. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 5. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 6. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 7. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 8. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-NET, HP 5370A, HP5334A problem?
Also, if it's of any use, the HP-85 controller does an unlisten, my-talk-addr, listen-address-x for each read. There's no mention of the HP-85 doing an automatic group-execute-trigger, and none of the examples issue an explicit trigger. There is one sentence in the 5334 manual that says a g-e-t will trigger a new measurement, which is what I would expect. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. wje wrote: >That does the trick, thanks. Interestingly, the HP manual doesn't >discuss group-execute-trigger at all. It's possible that the HP-85 >programmable controllers would do a trigger before a read; all of the >examples in the 5334A manual are written for that controller. > Bill Ezell > -- > They said 'Windows or better' > so I used Linux. > >Prologix wrote: > > You could try explicitly triggering with ++trg followed by ++read 10. > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [[2]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of wje > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:14 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-NET, HP 5370A, HP5334A problem? > > YI don't use read-after-write, and I explicitly set it off before > reading. However, I did try it once just for fun, and it does work as > expected. > > The 5334 doesn't seem to assert eoi, so I do a '++read 10', which works > just fine except for the WA1 strangeness. > > Bill Ezell > -- > They said 'Windows or better' > so I used Linux. > > > > Prologix wrote: > > Bill, > > How are you reading from 5334A? Is the read-after-write mode OFF? > I recommend the following sequence: > > ++auto 0-- turn off read-after-write > ++read eoi -- read until EOI is asserted by the instrument > ++read eoi > > > (If your instrument does not assert EOI, specify a character to terminate > ++read command. See manual for details.) > > Yes, ++read will address the instrument to talk, read any output, and then > address it to listen. > > We are testing an update that resets the controller if it detects a hung > GPIB bus. I can send that to you offline. > > Regards, > Abdul > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [[4]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of wje > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:12 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-NET, HP 5370A, HP5334A problem? > > I just got one of the new networked GPIB controllers, and I've been > having some issues. I'm not sure if it's the Prologix or the > instruments, or both. > > With the 5370A, I can get samples for some period of time ranging from > about 2 to 4 hours before the GPIB controller stops responding. I > suspect this one might be the 5370A -488 controller bug I've heard of. > However, there is no way to recover without power-cycling the Prologix. > Even if this is the 5370A, the Prologix should really have an > asynchronous reset capability. > > With the 5334A, I can get samples for as long as I want, no problem. > However, if I set the 5334A to 'WA1' mode, which is supposed to wait > until the counter is addressed before taking each sample, what happens > is that I can read one value. Every successive read returns the same > value; the 5334A never triggers for a new sample. Either I don't > understand the behavior of WA1, although HP's sample program indicates > that what I've described is proper, or there is some incompatibility > between the Prologix and the 5334A. > > Unfortunately, the documentation for the Prologix is scanty at best. > There is no description of the actual IEEE-488 handshake process that's > going on. For example, does the Prologix do an unlisten after a read? > The HP docs seem to indicate that in WA1 mode, a sample starts when the > 5334A is addressed. So, if it's never unlistened, perhaps it never takes > a new sample? > > Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe, go to > [6]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe, go to > [8]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > References > >1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] &
Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-NET, HP 5370A, HP5334A problem?
Yes, that was essentially what I was seeing over a few runs. The
failure times I saw were on the order of 2-4 hours.
I've moved my 5370 over to a UPS, along with the Prologix and the
router, and I'll see what happens. I have to wait until my 3-day 5334
run finishes, though. I'm measuring long-term phase difference between
my 5061A and my Z3801A. The 5334 has been running solidly for 1.5 days,
so I can eliminate power problems at this point.
This brings up another question. I'm seeing cyclic phase variations of
about 10 ns with a pretty regular 1 hour cycle. The overall long-term
average is OK, 1e-13 ADEV at 6000 seconds. I'm guessing this has
something to do with satellite orbits, but I'd welcome any
explanations.
As for the 5370A bug, there was a thread a while back in time-nuts
describing a bug in the GPIB controllers for the 5370A's that would
occasionally and randomly cause a bus lockup. This problem was
supposedly fixed in the B series. That's all I've seen on the issue, so
it's possible that the bug doesn't actually exist. If I still get
failures, I'll swap in a controller from my spare 5370 and see if
there's any difference.
BTW, I've been doing precision AC and DC measurements for a long time,
but I have to say that high-resolution time/freq measurements are even
more fun!
Bill Ezell
--
They said 'Windows or better'
so I used Linux.
John Miles wrote:
I'm not familiar with any GPIB bugs on the 5370A, but I moved your code over
to C and ran it on my 5370B via a GPIB-LAN adapter. The test app failed
after ~6 hours with a Winsock timeout error. I'm thinking that was caused
by a power glitch, though, because I actually had to power-cycle the counter
(rather than the Prologix dongle) to get the program running again. Was
that your experience?
Since then it's finished a 24-hour run without any sign of trouble.
-- john, KE5FX
If the 5370A problem is actually the 5370A gpib controller bug, then I
don't think it can be reproduced with the 5370B; I'm pretty sure that
was fixed in the B model.
However, if you want to give it a try, here's what I do (you'll have to
interpret, but it should be pretty clear)...
C version:
GPIB_connect(atoi(argv[1]),
GPIB_error,
0,
2); // Set 20-second timeout
GPIB_set_EOS_mode(10);
GPIB_set_serial_read_dropout(2); // 20-second dropout
GPIB_write("SS2"); // Sample size = 100
GPIB_write("MD2"); // Lock out rate control, hold until MR
GPIB_write("AR1"); // +T.I. arming only
Sleep(2000);
GPIB_write("MR");// Manual read (discard first reading)
Sleep(1000);
for (S32 h=0; h < 24; h++)
{
for (S32 m=0; m < 60; m++)
{
for (S32 s=0; s < 60; s++)
{
GPIB_write("MR");
Sleep(1000);
printf("%d:%d:%d %s",
h,m,s,
GPIB_read_ASC());
}
}
}
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[time-nuts] 5371A problem
I have a problem with my HP 5371A. Fairly often, when I display samples in one of the graph modes, the graph is displayed properly, but then a number of horizontal lines show up composed of semi-regularly-spaced dots. Typically the rows will be spaced about 1/5 of the vertical size apart. Whether or not they show up, and how many show up, seem to depend upon the amplitude if the displayed graph. One strange thing is that they show up almost as if they were being explicitly drawn - first, the graph is rendered, then the axes, and then the rows of dots. It passes all memory tests, CRT, controller, and data. I have a suspicion as to the cause, but if anyone has any ideas, please let me know. -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5371A problem
The dot are aligned horizontally, only a single scan line per set of dots. However, this only shows up in graph mode, not in any other display. The dots are actually in memory. If I plot the graph, they show up in the plot also. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Mark Sims wrote: > It may be related to video not being blanked properly during the vertical > retrace on the CRT... particularly if the dots on each row seem to be > regularly aligned (either vertically or most likely skewed). > > If the vertical retrace signal lasts for five horizontal scan line times, > you would see five lines of pseudo video garbage during the vertical retrace. > You might only see the video garbage if the average amplitude of the video > signal exceeded some threshold (which apparently occurs when the graph > exceeds a certain size). > > Try displaying one of those wordy help screens or a display with "bold" > values enabled and see if the problem appears there. > > > > _ > Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5371A problem
I don't think so. Not only is this not documented in the manual, the lines aren't complete. There tend to be missing pixels; sometimes there are only a few pixels in a line. But, the lines are always horizontal, and typically occur every 1/4 to 1/6 or so of the vertical span, but don't seem to have any correlation with the actual vertical scale divisions. I'm wondering if the rams are suffering from pattern sensitivity failures. This used to be a reasonably common problem where writing to one address would also write to bits in other RAM rows (or columns, depending upon the ram design). Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. WB6BNQ wrote: Bill, Are you sure that they are not suppose to be there ? In otherwords like a mino r axis/division indicator ? Just a thought. BillWB6BNQ wje wrote: The dot are aligned horizontally, only a single scan line per set of dots. However, this only shows up in graph mode, not in any other display. The dots are actually in memory. If I plot the graph, they show up in the plot also. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Mark Sims wrote: It may be related to video not being blanked properly during the vertical retrac e on the CRT... particularly if the dots on each row seem to be regularly aligne d (either vertically or most likely skewed). If the vertical retrace signal lasts for five horizontal scan line times, you w ould see five lines of pseudo video garbage during the vertical retrace. You mi ght only see the video garbage if the average amplitude of the video signal exce eded some threshold (which apparently occurs when the graph exceeds a certain si ze). Try displaying one of those wordy help screens or a display with "bold" values e nabled and see if the problem appears there. _ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. [1]http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [3]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [5]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [7]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ 2. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 3. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 4. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 5. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 6. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 7. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP Continuous Measurement Software for 5371A
I'm interested in a related item - ROM images for a later version of
the firmware than I have in my 5371A. Quite a few features were added
in the late releases; I have an early set of ROMs in my
otherwise-pristine unit.
If anyone has uploaded them in any of the common programmer formats,
I'd appreciate a copy of the files, let me know if you'd like some
compensation.
If anyone has ROMs they want to lend me, I'd be happy to upload them
and make copies available.
Bill Ezell
--
They said 'Windows or better'
so I used Linux.
Had wrote:
I also would be very interested in taking a look at this software.
Thanks,
Had, K7MLR
At 09:16 AM 9/22/2008, you wrote:
Hello Everyone,
I'm gradually learning how to use my 5372A Frequency & Time Interval
Analyzer. While reading App. Note 358-12 "Simplify Frequency Stability
Measurements with Built-in Allan Variance Analysis" I ran across a
reference to "HP 53700A Continuous Measurement Software" for the 5371A
only. This software automates data collection & processing for Tau
values greater than 8 seconds. Since the 5371A and 5372A are so
similar, I thought I might be able to modify the program for my 5372A.
I realize that the software only runs under HP BASIC - I'll also have to
translate it to another platform.
Does anyone have a copy of this software or know where I can get one?
The software was free ('send in the enclosed reply card'), but neither
Google nor the Agilent web site can give me any leads.
Thanks,
Ed
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Re: [time-nuts] Degaussing Unit For An HP5061B
I've been looking for one for ages. They're out there, but at outrageous prices. ManualsPlus sells a very nice reprint manual with schematics. If you're patient, I just started building a replacement using most of the original circuitry. I'd be happy to make board files available, or a board at cost. It might be a few months, though; things are very busy at my real job. The degausser is quite simple. High degauss provides ~330 ma, low about ~17 ma initially, with an exponential decay. The decay constant is 100 secs. There's a 20 minute timer that terminates the cycle. There's a DPDT relay which switches the current direction through the coil that toggles every 2.5 seconds. (Cheap H bridge). That's it. I'm replicating most of the analog current source circuity, but replacing the analog 2.5 sec and 20 minute timers with a uP. I'd also be happy to send you a copy of the schematic. If you want it, send me your snail mail info. I'd recommend the manual, though. It's very nicely done and costs $25. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Jeffrey Okamitsu wrote: > I am looking for an HP 10638A degausser for an HP5061B Cesium Beam Standard. > > Does anyone have one that they are willing to sell? > > Short of that, does anyone have a schematic for the degausser they're willing > to share with me? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > Jeffrey K. Okamitsu, PhD, MBA > +1-609-638-5402 > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] AC Connector On HP 5061B
And this is another reason you should pay attention to hot and neutral. The hot side is usually where the fuse is, as is the case in the 5061. If you swap them, you no longer have any protection against an internal hot-to-ground AC fault. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Ian Sheffield wrote: Similar to what another poster suggested, but more direct - assuming the schematic shows that only the live side is fuse protected inside the HP, then if you take out the fuse on the rear panel, and see which prong on the connector connects to it, that should tell you. - unless both sides are fused :-( Ian. - Original Message - From: "Jeffrey Okamitsu" [1]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" [2] Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC Connector On HP 5061B "What happens to a 5061 if I swap the power wires? I can imagine some second order considerations that would depend on how the power transformer is constructed." This is my concern. Hence, I want to get it right in the beginning. Jeff Jeffrey K. Okamitsu, PhD, MBA +1-609-638-5402 --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Hal Murray [3]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: Hal Murray [4]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC Connector On HP 5061B To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" [5] Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 1:56 PM US is similar regarding the lashing together of earth and ground for single phase power. However, current US electric code is very specific about which terminal of the AC plug is wired to "hot" and which is wired to "neutral". It used to matter back in the tube days when cheap radios/TVs didn't have a power transformer. The neutral was connected to the chassis and the B+ was derived from the hot line. That gives you a hot chassis if you swap the power wires. (The chassis was all hidden in plastic, at least in theory.) What happens to a 5061 if I swap the power wires? I can imagine some second order considerations that would depend on how the power transformer is constructed. References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 4. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 5. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Further Observation On My 5061B
Just a nitpick - the reading on the meter isn't any particular scale, it's essentially arbitrary. The actual beam current is typically in the picoamp range. My measured beam current is only about 400 pA. I'm not sure what you would be seeing from induction; the beam current is a result of current flow from the electron multiplier, which is stimulated by electrons from the ionized cesium. There are no inductive components, and in any case the frequency of the degaussing is so low (0.2 Hz) that any inductive coupling would be extremely low. My guess would be that you actually have an at-least marginally working tube, but have a failure in your synthesizer, or in the microwave generator. Have you done the harmonic generator alignment in the manual? I don't remember if you said if you did the LF test, that's a good diagnostic also. If you have a high impedance voltmeter, (100 megs), you can directly measure the beam current following the procedure in the manual. This will eliminate any problems in the amps and detector. Go to open-loop, mod-off, monitor the current and very slowly adjust the coarse 10Mhz. You should see variation at resonance peaks. BTW, even when operating correctly, you have to be quite precise when doing the coarse frequency adjustment; the peaks are very narrow and easy to miss. One final thing you can do is to go to open-loop, mod-on, amplifier gain switch to high and crank the gain up as far as you can, but not to exceed a second-harmonic reading of 40. Then, slowly adjust the 10Mhz coarse control and see if the second-harmonic moves anywhere over the control range. If you get a signal, back off on the gain and keep tweaking the osc to maximize the second harmonic. If you can do this, you are getting a beam signal, and if you can get a second-harmonic reading of at least 30, you should be able to get lock, assuming your synthesizer is working. It's also easy to end up on a secondary peak, in which case you will get good readings but no lock. I always adjust past the first peak I see to look for a secondary. If I don't find it, I know I was on a secondary originally and scan back to maximize the beam current. Again, there's not a huge difference between primary and secondary peaks, so you have to pay attention. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Jeffrey Okamitsu wrote: > Also, the magnitude of the "bump" decreased over time, with is consistent > with the way the degausser works - the current pulse decreases exponentially > with time. > > Jeff > > Jeffrey K. Okamitsu, PhD, MBA > +1-609-638-5402 > > --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Jeffrey Okamitsu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > From: Jeffrey Okamitsu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [time-nuts] Further Observation On My 5061B > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 1:03 PM > > I forgot to mention in my email yesterday that when I did a degaussing > procedure > (using the 10638A) the Beam current peaked above 20 nA during the early part > of > the procedure. > > At first, I took this an evidence that more beam current could be obtained - > that is, the mass spec system needed to be tuned. However, upon further > thought I suspect that what I was seeing was inductive pickup by the beam > current measuring system. > > Anyone care to speculate? > > Jeff > > Jeffrey K. Okamitsu, PhD, MBA > +1-609-638-5402 > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] My HP 10638A degausser replacement for the 5061A
I've finished my degausser replacement. I've put a zip file with schematics, pcb layout, a picture of the finished unit, etc. on my ftp site. Note that you have to use ftp to get to it, not a web browser: ftp ftp.quackers.net login: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use the login name exactly as given. Just hit enter at the password prompt. Get degausser.zip. -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5061A Manual
Artekmedia has a very nicely scanned manual for about $10. There's also a copy floating around on one of the member's sites, but I don't remember which one offhand. A Google search and some persistence will locate it. Along these lines, none of the manuals I've found cover the late-model DC oven controller, which one of my clocks has. Anyone have any leads on a schematic? Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. J. L. Trantham wrote: > Does anyone know of a link to a 5061A Service Manual? I found the > 'Temporary Operating Manual' at the Agilent website. > > Thanks, > > Joe > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10Mhz source?
I'm in Southern NH. I have GPS and Rubidium 10 Mhz sources, and a 5 Mhz Cesium source. Le me know if you'd like to drop in, I'm near Peterborough. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Lee Reynolds wrote: > Hi, people. > > I'm in need of an extremely accurate 10MHz signal source (doing some > alignment of receiver TXCOs.) > > Would anyone know of a source I could either visit or borrow in NH/VT? > > Failing that, what's a reasonable plan for buying one that won't break my > piggy bank? I see that there are a fair number of those Trimble GPS clock > units showing up on eBay but have no idea of their utility... > > TIA, > Lee > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VRefs - I'm a bigger Voltnut than a timenut..
Another (sometimes) relatively inexpensive outstanding reference is either a Datron 4910 or 4912. These are also LTZ1000 based. The 10 has one reference, the 12 has four that can be averaged or used independently. You can on rare occasions pick one up for a few hundred. I have a pair, and yes, I paid Fluke $600 for traceable certification for one. These use a rather clever way of generating 1V and 1.18 volts without significant division error. The 10V reference is sampled by a pulse-width modulator whose duty cycle is crystal-controlled and programmable. The result is then LP filtered using an active filter and tracks the primary reference to better than 1ppm. My primary one was hot-shipped from Fluke after certification (it has battery backup) and hasn't ever been turned off. I have turned the secondary one on and off a few times, and the resultant error is less than 0.3 ppm. Both of these units had thousands of hours of burn-in before I got them, and I've added another 30 thousand or so. I also have a Solartron 7081 8.5 digit meter, which is a marvelous unit. It uses a selected ultra-low TC Zener with a transistor for temp compensation, a sort-of discrete implementation of the LTZ1000. The Zener current is programmable, and is used to set the zero point for the particular zener/transistor pair. I can turn mine off for months at a time, turn it back on, and after a 24 h warmup, usually have it within 1ppm(!) of my primary ref. These are somewhat rare, but can be picked up for a few hundreds. I paid $300 for mine. As for why, I'm surprised that no one has stated the obvious reason - because you can. It's the same reason time-nuts collect 10e-13 frequency standards. I was into precision voltage and resistance metrology well before I got into precision frequency. I find it fascinating to be able to determine various values to precisions that not all that long ago were limited to national standards labs. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Dr. Frank Stellmach wrote: > Hello, > > there's currently no easy way to convert a frequency into Volt, i.e. > other than by cryo Josephson junction array or realizing Ohm by a > Klitzing quantum hall effect device. Otherwise, FLUKE would have > implemented that already in their Calibrators/Standards. They still rely > on Artefact Calibration, i.e. ovenized longterm stable Zener References > and Reference Resistors. > > The 5720A uses a stacked double Zener reference on a proprietary hybrid > circuitry, giving 1-2 ppm/year stability, the 7001 and 732B use the > LTZ1000 (Zener above BE junction), as the 3458A, the 732A uses the > Motorola device (Zener below BE junction), and the elder 332D and 335D > use similar, but less longterm stable references. > The LM199, AD587 and I think also the Geller device may only be used as > transfer standards, having poor longterm stabilities of 20ppm/yr. or more. > > Therefore, the LTZ1000 only may serve as a really affordable standard, > i.e. below 8ppm longterm stability, for private use. > > I was lucky to get some LTZ1000 samples, and used the standard circuit > from the LT datasheet for creating a small PCB. I purchased commercially > available wire wound resistors (TK 3, 25ppm/yr) for the 5 necessary > reference resistors and two OP07. Those resistors should give less than > TK 1 and 1ppm/yr additional drifts. > > Compared to my HP34401A, the circuitry showed quite good short term > stability below 1ppm, but shielding still has to be improved, as the > LTZ1000 circuit is susceptible to external EMC disturbances. This Volt > reference then costs less than 100 Euros/Dollars in total. > > I designed further circuitry (with TK 0.3 and TK 0.1 precision metal > foil resistors from Alpha and Vishay, chopper amp, precision switches > and Teflon insulated wires) to have the possibility for precision > transfers of the 7,2V reference voltage to 100mV, 1V, 10V, 100V, 1000V > level. > Only then, a Volt Standard is complete. > > All this stuff will emulate or replace the commonly needed 732A (ref), > 720A (Kelvin Varley), 752A (Reference Divider) and 834B (Null Detector). > > Got no time yet to finish and improve the system, and to do the repair > on an old 332B standard, but would like to share my knowledge, if > anyone's interested. > > Frank Stellmach > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VRefs - I'm a bigger Voltnut than a timenut..
Yes, I do have full schematics for the Datron refs, including the LTZ1000 circuitry. It isn't the same as that in the LTZ1000 data sheet. I'll dig out my manuals. If you'd like a copy, email your postal address and I'll copy the page and send it to you: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've built a few standards myself. My latest was one using 16 399's. I shamelessly stole some circuit designs from a Fluke reference to provide sense-current compensation, etc. It was a lot of fun. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Dr. Frank Stellmach wrote: > @Bill Ezell: > > Well, I have the same motivation to invest time and money into "precision". > > I started with metrology working in a German Airforce cal lab in 1980. > We had all that goddie equipment, ie. a bank of Weston standard cells, > the Fluke cal system, DCF receiver, a HP caesium standard, and so on. > This cal lab was tightly associated with our PTB. > In a "secret" lab they obviously made some tests on the new Josephson > junction standard, as they transferred the Volt from this lab to our > facility with a Fluke 731A, and they were very proud of that. > > From then on, the ppm quest never let me go. > It's biggest fun for me to design standards on my own, not only to > collect and repair old ones. > > I've already read about the Datron standards, but didn't know details, > and that it's so sophisticated. It's inner principle of dividing the > reference is identical to the Fluke 5720A, I think. > > Do you have a detailed schematic of the LTZ reference circuitry in the > Datron? > This cannot be found in the manuals of HP3458 or Fluke 7000. > > In Germany there is no big chance for getting surplus standards for a > reasonable price. > It's a pity.. > > Frank > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC-1000
I don't really know how rare they are, but they're reliable. I have mine that I built many many years ago (20+), and it's still ticking. It's been on continuously for all that time. There's one listed on EBay now, item 160302101690. It's already up to $150. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Brad Stockdale wrote: > Hello all, > > Back 'in the day', when I was about 14 or 15, I went to a local > computer/technology meeting... This was back around 94 or 95, and > there was an underground group of computer users in the area that got > together once a month and traded knowledge, etc... After the meeting, > I was taken to a friend-of-a-friends house. This guy, named Doc, was > about 60 years old or so. Lived alone (except for his cat and dog)... > His 'living room' was nothing short of a combination of a datacenter, > hamfest, and video editing suite. Three or four Commodore Amiga's, a > betacam editing system, a huge front projection TV. Walls lined with > random equipment. His kitchen table was stacked with computers of > various vintages... > > In any case, on his mantle sat a Heathkit GC-1000 quietly ticking > away, sync'd to one of the WWV stations... This was my earliest > contact with 'accurate time', and is what prompted my fascination > with it. That little 1 PPS LED made me fall in love... > > For years I had no clue what that clock was. Years later, I > finally identified the make/model. I looked around online randomly > over the past decade and never found one... Recently I added > 'Heathkit GC-1000' to my eBay saved searches... Well, today I got an > email that someone listed one. It appears to be in good working > order, complete with manuals. > > I bid on it, but was promptly outbid by the original bidder. I > didn't figure I would get it for what I offered anyway, but I figured > I would try. No harm in that, right? > > Anyway, I digress. I apologize for the trip down memory lane that > I subjected you all to... I'll get to my questions... > > 1) How prevelant are Heathkit GC-1000's? Are they a common find, or > are they fairly rare? > > 2) What would be considered a reasonable price for one in working > order? > > Thanks, > Brad > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz over optical fiber?
It's actually [1]http://www.bb-elec.com for those looking. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Neon John wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:33:25 -0800, "Tom Van Baak" [2]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrot e: Yes. I know of several commecial systems. If you only need to do a short jump, then using fairly basic E/O-O/E equipment should work well enought. It all depends if you want/can to roll your own or need to buy a finished product (aka "buy this, and you will be fine!"). Magnus, what's the typical noise floor, tempco or drift of cheap (i.e., non JPL-level) fiber distribution systems like this? Is it less than regular coax, or phase stabilized heliax? At 100 m lengths? OK, tom, you got me with another one. WTF is phase stabilized heliax? Is that a hunk of ordinary heliax that has been characterized or is it made special in some way? re: original problem check out B&B Electronics [3]http://www.bandbelectronics.com/ sorry, I'm off-line right now and can't browse but they specialize in really inexpensive implementations of stuff like this. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address [4]http://www.neon-john.com [5]http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Save the whales, collect the whole set! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [7]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nut s and follow the instructions there. References 1. http://www.bb-elec.com/ 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. http://www.bandbelectronics.com/ 4. http://www.neon-john.com/ 5. http://www.johndearmond.com/ 6. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 7. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz over optical fiber?
It's regular Heliax that's been temperature-conditioned by repeated temp cycling to minimize dielectric size change vs temperature. This minimizes phase shift over length. The cycling affects the foam used as the dielectric, which apparently eventually stops expanding and contracting as much as non-conditioned cables. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Neon John wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:33:25 -0800, "Tom Van Baak" [1]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrot e: Yes. I know of several commecial systems. If you only need to do a short jump, then using fairly basic E/O-O/E equipment should work well enought. It all depends if you want/can to roll your own or need to buy a finished product (aka "buy this, and you will be fine!"). Magnus, what's the typical noise floor, tempco or drift of cheap (i.e., non JPL-level) fiber distribution systems like this? Is it less than regular coax, or phase stabilized heliax? At 100 m lengths? OK, tom, you got me with another one. WTF is phase stabilized heliax? Is that a hunk of ordinary heliax that has been characterized or is it made special in some way? re: original problem check out B&B Electronics [2]http://www.bandbelectronics.com/ sorry, I'm off-line right now and can't browse but they specialize in really inexpensive implementations of stuff like this. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address [3]http://www.neon-john.com [4]http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Save the whales, collect the whole set! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [6]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nut s and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. http://www.bandbelectronics.com/ 3. http://www.neon-john.com/ 4. http://www.johndearmond.com/ 5. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 6. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Some pics of the Datron 491x DC reference cell
I've uploaded some photos of the Datron 10 volt cell and reference board, as requested by a few members. I've kept them full-resolution so you can see fine detail. But, that means they are about 3 mb each. The schematics for the cell board I previously posted are also still on the FTP site. DatronCell.jpg is an image of the entire cell board. The reference board is piggybacked on it. Note the thermal shield around the LTZ1000, and the completely shielded sections on the board. Those contain the digital circuitry. The cell board itself goes into a shielded enclosure along with the other three cells and the output buffer amp. DatronLTZCloseup.jpg is exactly that, a closeup of the LTZ with thermal shield removed. The interesting detail here is the mounting. Note the cutouts on the board to provide thermal isolation. This board is also very thin; I didn't measure it, but it's on the order of 0.5 - 1 mm thick. DatronRefCloseup.jpg is a closeup image of the rest of the reference board. The ref board is permanently soldered in place on the cell board, so I can't show the back of it. The ftp login is: ftp ftp.quackers.net login: f...@quackers.net password: (none required) Or, directly from a browser. I know this works for Firefox, I haven't tried it with anything else: ftp://f...@quackers.net:f...@ftp.quackers.net/ Some of you are also waiting for the schematic for the LTZ board itself; I'm recreating it now (since I lost it) and will post when ready. -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Datron 4910/11/12 LTZ1000 Reference Board (finally)
I've finished retracing the LTZ ref board I promised months ago. While it somewhat resembles the LTZ1000 data sheet example, it differs significantly in a number of details. The heater control is far more complex, using a PWM scheme. Take the schematic with a bit of a grain of salt... tracing it is difficult because there is no access to the back of the board, at least not without more surgery than I'm willing to do on my secondary reference! In particular, the internal resistor connections in the Vishay precision resistor network are just guesses. If anyone has any info about Vishay TO5 canned precision networks from the 80's, please share. I'm confident about the heater side circuitry, but less so about the output side. You will also need to refer to the Datron cell schematics already posted, since significant portions of the heater control as well as the output buffer amp are on that board. If anyone notices any highly questionable topology, let me know and I'll try to confirm it. I haven't spent the time to do much of a sanity check myself. One final note - although not apparent from the schematic, the ref board itself makes extensive use of guarding. This is critical for ultra-precision refs, since even picoamps of leakage in the wrong place can easily lead to multi-PPM errors. I would estimate that fully 50% of the total trace length on the board is guard traces. As a bonus, I've also scanned the 10V reference from my Solartron 7081 8.5 digit voltmeter. This is an HP 3458 class voltmeter. The interesting (and amazing) thing about this reference is that it does NOT use an LTZ1000, or even an ovenized reference. It uses a 1N829 Zener with some clever linear and non-linear temp compensation. My meter routinely achieves a 1-year drift of less than 1ppm compared against my (calibrated, NIST-traceable) Datron ref. They are all on my FTP site. Look for DatronRef.PDF, SolartronReadme.txt, SolartronRef-1.PDF, and SolartronRef-2.PDF. FTP: ftp ftp.quackers.net login: f...@quackers.net password: or via a browser: ftp://f...@quackers.net:f...@ftp.quackers.net/ Enjoy. -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] OT: Leads for Solartron 7081 8.5 digit DVM
I've posted a response for you on the HP group. >I managed to buy a Solartron 7081 at auction the other day, and assuming I >can get it working (I'm assuming it won't work when it arrives), I will need >some leads for it. Bill -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 5061A DC oven controller board
I recently upgraded my 5061A to the late-model DC oven controller (thanks, Corby). However, all my manuals only cover the older AC controller. Does anyone have a scanned schematic for the DC version they could send me? I'd also be happy to pay for a photocopy of the schematic and the theory-of-operation pages on it. Thanks, Bill wje at quackers.net -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP 1938 revisited
Fluke.l (China) was selling a number of 1938's on Ebay. I snagged one just to have a piece of HP history. It works just fine, but I've noticed something a little strange. Comparing the 1938 to both my cesium and GPS standards, there's a distinct periodic 1ns phase shift every second. Seems to smoothly advance 1ns for 500 ms, then retard back to the original phase point over the next 500ms. Question: is this to be expected? I'm assuming this is from the AFC loop, but I would have expected it to be better damped. I've searched both this group and the HP group; there really doesn't seem to be a great deal of info about these, other than schematics and some nice variance plots on leapsecond. Just what is the serial port and the PIC data lines useful for, if anything? -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 1938 revisited (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Must be coupling in via the EFC, then. The phase shift does correlate precisely with the 1Hz LED. The EFC is just connected to the center tap of a 1meg pot, which is connected to +VREF and EFC shield. But, this is just for testing so I could trim the 1938 to my reference to check drift, of which there isn't a whole lot! For a real circuit, I'll have to be a bit more careful, now that I know this isn't an internal loop artifact. The EFC sensitivity is higher than my trusty 105B's. > > The AFC loop (as opposed to EFC) is a purely analog loop in which there > is no mechanism for a 1 Hz oscillation. > > Now if you are talking about the EFC, that is another story. Depending > on how you are driving the EFC, you can pickup noise from any number > of sources. > > I vaguely remember there was an LED that flashed at 1 Hz if everything > was working OK. You might see if that is the source of what you are > seeing. > > > Rick Karlquist N6RK > Designer of E1938A > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] OT: JHP 3588 Basic feature enable?
A member kindly provided me with a key generated from my serial number for my HP 3588 to enable Basic, but he wasn't exactly sure what the proper way was to put them on a disk so the '88 would read the key. My serial number is 3005A01033. I tried creating a LIF file name "LD1033" and put the key in it using the lifutils 'copy as ascii file'. The '88 does read the disk on startup, and I can see the file in the disk menu with type ASCII, but no joy with Basic being enabled. I tried a couple of other format variations, same result (binary image, null-terminated, cr/lf, lf, etc). Does anyone have any other info, hints, etc? I'd like to get the builtin IBasic enabled, it's quite useful, even if it is Basic. :) Thanks in advance, Bill -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Efratom FRS 10mhz rubidium frequency oscillator+ board
This is a pull from a Lucent unit used to provide timing for cell sites. I have a couple myself. The board is primarily a 10Mhz to 15Mhz converter. It also has some failover logic. Typically two independent units were installed in one plugin chassis. The D connector has power in and status in, and provides status out. One unit is set as the primary and the other as the secondary via signals on the connector. The secondary then monitors the status of the primary and will switch to primary if the other fails. The TNC connectors provide raw 10Mhz from the FRS, a buffered 10Mhz, and synthesized 15Mhz. I did at one time have the connector pinout info, but since the board is fairly useless, I'm not sure I kept it. It does have some nice TNC connectors and a nice crystal filter, if you happen to need a 15Mhz filter. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. gandal...@aol.com wrote: Bob, Fluke.1, is selling these on Ebay, for example item # 290313671907, and supplies the FRS module itself with an interface board containing the FRS connector, plus another PCB containing a 15MHz oscillator and assorted other parts that the FRS interface board plugs into. Connecting up the FRS itself via the 10 way header on the interface board is simple enough, most connections are marked and others easily traced, but there's no information available regarding the other PCB. Does anyone have any information regarding the purpose of this board and/or connection details for the fitted 25 way D type and TNC connectors? Any information on the functions of the various jumper pins would also be appreciated. regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Efratom FRS 10mhz rubidium frequency oscillator+ board
Much to my amazement, I did find some notes on the DB-25 15Mhz board pinout: 1 +24V 2 +24V 3 Gnd 4 Gnd 5 6 Freq Adj (this goes directly to the FRS, the board does nothing with it) 7 Gnd 8 -Enable + 9 10 Enable - (notes are unclear on 8, 10, 11, 12. See note below) 11 To 11 on other unit 12 to Fault+ on other unit 13 External 1 (this goes to whatever the dual-osc unit plugs into, function unknown) 14 15 External 2 16 Fault + 17 Fault - 18 Ready + 19 Ready - 20 Gnd 21 Standby + 22 Standby - 23 24 25 Pins with no assignment are not used. Note - as mentioned in the previous post, two units cross-monitor each other. One is selected as primary by a manual switch. The notes I found didn't cover the details, but if I remember correctly, +/- enable selects the primary (one unit is enabled, one disabled). Then, a fault assertion by the primary will cause the secondary to become primary. The secondary's 15Mhz output is disabled; only the primary provides an output. The control lines are all TTL compatible, and are always provided in complimentary pairs. Finally, these pinouts came from tracing a live unit and observing behavior. They might not be completely accurate, but they're close. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. gandal...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 01/06/2009 02:23:46 GMT Daylight Time, w...@quackers.net writes: I did at one time have the connector pinout info, but since the board is fairly useless, I'm not sure I kept it. It does have some nice TNC connectors and a nice crystal filter, if you happen to need a 15Mhz filter. --- Hi Bill I did realise, after my posted request, that what was described in the auction as a 15MHz oscillator was actually a 15MHz filter with 36KHz bandwidth. Not sure that I need one either:-), but if you do still have the connector pinout I'd be grateful for a copy. regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 4 channel 1 Mhz - 25 Mhz distribution amp
I finally gave up trying to find a 50 ohm distribution amp I liked and wanted to pay for, so I built a simple 4 channel one that uses either a Linear LT1365 or an Analog Devices AD8044. It has an ac-coupled input and transformer-isolated outputs. I took care in the layout to keep trace lengths exactly the same for all channels, and they're also striplines. (not that using striplines makes much difference with 0.5" trace lengths). Warning - it doesn't have perfect unity gain, 0 chan-chan phase error, infinitely low noise, infiinte isolation, or any of those other characteristics Time-Nuts expect. What it does to (using the LT1365 @ 10Mhz) is accept a 10dBm input, provide 50dB worst-case channel-channel isolation, 68 dB worst-case output-input reverse isolation, and worst-case 0.2 degree channel-channel phase error. I'm not quite sure about the noise; it's down around the noise level of my HP 3588A, which reports -139dBm/rtHz for the amp. This is also the basic noise figure of the 3588, so the amp is probably lower. The amp specs say 9nV/rtHz, which works out to -147dBm referred to 50 ohms, assuming I did my quick calculations correctly. Interestingly, the phase error between 3 of the 4 channels is down around 0.02 degrees; just one channel has the 0.2 degree error relative to all the others. This was measured with my HP 5370 using 10k samples per reading. The LT1365 datasheet says 0.04 max. Hmm.. maybe I should check the coax for that channel. The gain is less than unity at all frequencies. Why? Because I wanted to be able to accept a 10dBm input without clipping and still get close to that out. Using the LT1365, this is possible. The AD8044 will start clipping at about 6dBm because it doesn't have enough current drive. However, it has a MUCH flatter bandwidth curve, managing 0.2 dB from <1Mhz to >50Mhz. The LT1365 is significantly worse, but for a single-frequency distribution amp, this isn't all that important. Using the LT1365, the gain is -1.5 dB @ 10 Mhz, -0.9 @ 5Mhz. Of course, you can trim the gain for whatever you want within the voltage and current limits of the op amp. The opamp is set for a gain of 2 by default (to drive the series-terminated output transformer). If anyone is interested, I can put the schematic, pc board layout, and various plots from my 3588 for the amp on my FTP site. -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Distribution amp
Per request, I've put the info up on my ftp site: ftp://f...@quackers.net:f...@ftp.quackers.net/ Pick up DistAmp.zip. Also, read the ReadMe! It explains how to actually look at the board layout. I'm using it to distribute my 10 Mhz GPS-based standard (Thunderbolt) to my spectrum analyzer, counter, and synthesizer, with one left over. -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Datron 4910 service manual request
I have a manual, but it's hard-copy and LARGE. If you can narrow down your problem area, I'd be happy to scan some schematics. I also have two 4910's; I can probe some test points if you need some values. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Steve Krull wrote: I'd like to find a copy, too. Same problem, and there doesn't seem to be replacement batteries that are fit-and-form equivalents. Thanks, Steve On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:35 PM , Frans wrote: Does anyone has a service manual for the Datron / Wavetek 4910 voltage standard. The output voltage is correct. I have problems with battery power. Met vriendelijke groeten, Regards, ing. Frans de Haan Haarlem the Netherlands ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN
Lux, James P wrote: I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell scripts for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm trying to get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that way. Jim I have one of the LAN units also. I've written a number of scripts for it using Java. Anything that can open a port can use the device easily. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Efratom MFTD and BFM module
I just snagged one of the MFTD distribution amps with MBF (analog) cards. There are two left listed as item 290333003008. Question: I know what all the modules are except the BFM module. I don't get any Google hits on it that say anything useful. Anyone know what this module does? -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] tHP 5071A Electron Multiplier of Cesium Beam Tube
It's not replaceable. The tube is a sealed (welded, in fact) assembly. Even if you could open it, you would need a lot of very specialized equipment to repair it. You'll either have to find a used replacement tube, or buy a new one. They're only around $30K. :) Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. [1]time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to [2]time-n...@febo.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit [3]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [4]time-nuts-requ...@febo.com You can reach the person managing the list at [5]time-nuts-ow...@febo.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of time-nuts digest..." Today's Topics: 1. HP 5071A Electron Multiplier of Cesium Beam Tube ([6]weijiaz...@sina.com) _ Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5071A Electron Multiplier of Cesium Beam Tube From: [7]weijiaz...@sina.com Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 15:45:28 +0800 To: time-nuts-request[8], [9]time-n...@febo.com To: time-nuts-request[10], [11]time-n...@febo.com Hi all, I got an HP 5071A,but it did not work.I think the Electron Multiplier decay prob lem. I want to change Electron Multiplier of Cesium Beam Tube . where to buy the Electron Multiplier and how to replace it? Thanks. weijiazhen ___ time-nuts mailing list [12]time-n...@febo.com [13]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts References 1. mailto:time-nuts-requ...@febo.com 2. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 3. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 4. mailto:time-nuts-requ...@febo.com 5. mailto:time-nuts-ow...@febo.com 6. mailto:weijiaz...@sina.com 7. mailto:weijiaz...@sina.com 8. mailto:time-nuts-requ...@febo.com 9. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 10. mailto:time-nuts-requ...@febo.com 11. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 12. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 13. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hp 5372A Parts available
I've already purchased the eprom board. I'll try to upload them when I get the board. I got it as a spare, so I can compare the firmware versions. My current board is an early version. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. On 01/-10/-28163 02:59 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi One very useful piece of information to have - which eproms are they? There was a field upgrade of these and the 5371's in the early 90's. The upgrade added several commands and likely fixed some bugs. I *assume* the upgrade was an eprom switch out, but I have never verified that. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] New member, and HP 5061A question
Although I've scanned the list fairly regularly, I haven't been subscribed. I finally decided to rectify that. I have Z3801 as my workhorse reference. I built a little adapter for it to provide time and 1pps data to NTP running on my Linux system and a buffered 10 Mhz feed to my lab for a reference signal. I have a number of FRK, FRS, and FE-5680A rubidium oscillators doing various things. My new prize is a 5061A with a fairly new high-output tube. (It was sold as non-working; all it needed was for the ion pump to run for a while. Lucky me!) Time isn't all that I'm precise about; I maintain a pair of Datron 4910 voltage standards that I pay an absurd amount to Fluke to calibrate every once and a while. I have a collection of 7 digit laboratory voltmeters, a Solartron 7081 8 digit meter, A Fluke 343 voltage calibrator (these are also great calibrators, and cheap, too), a Fluke 5400 AC calibrator, a Ballantine 1605A precision AC calibrator, a pair of HP 5370's ( a true miracle of engineering - after lots of tedious fiddling, one of them reports 11 ps of internal jitter), and a bunch of other meters, standards, etc. Which finally leads to my question - does anyone have any info on the HP 10638A degausser for my 5061A? What I'm looking for is an idea of what current and frequency profile is used for degaussing. These units seem to be hard to come by, at least for any reasonable price. Actually, one more question - is there any way to search the list archives? Either I'm blind, or there's not, or it's not obvious. Thanks! -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5370B arrived - any FAQ
Congratulations! It's a wonderful instrument, isn't it? I can answer a few of your questions. Set/clear ref - after power-on or a reset, the ref value is (should be) zero. When set-ref is pressed, the current time interval average value is stored. This remains set until a power-off/reset or you clear it. The buttons don't light up. Freq vs time interval - simplistic answer: when you're using time-gating, you're looking at more samples than in averaged one-period mode. For 10Mhz, a gate of 0.1 secs is 1 million periods. In period mode, you're averaging a maximum of 100,000 periods. Accuracy is proportional to the square root of the number of samples. The 'specifications' section of the manual gives the formulas for determining both resolution and accuracy (which are NOT the same) for the various modes. I would suggest you go through the detailed alignment procedures even though the unit passes the operational checks. These units almost always have drifted out of alignment in the analog front-end unless you were lucky enough to get a freshly-calibrated one. You can usually significantly improve channel-to-channel trigger consistency and lower the jitter by doing so. It's a tedious process, and some of the pots are virtually impossible to reach, as are some of the test points, but it's worth the pain. The theoretical one-sample measurement accuracy is 20ps, but a non-adjusted unit can add many tens of ps of jitter. HP states a typical jitter of 35ps; with very careful tweaking, you can get better than that; mine reports 21-23 ps averaged over 1000 samples. (I'm not entirely sure I believe that, though) Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Jim Palfreyman wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Well my 5370B purchased off ebay arrived from the US in perfect > condition. It passed all the operator checks (all well within spec) > and the only issue being that the internal 10811 oscillator was > running a tad slow. A quarter of a turn with the screwdriver fixed > that. > > Having played with it for a day or so I have a few questions. I was > wondering if there was an FAQ anywhere? > > My first issue was powering it up. It said on the socket on the back > 110-240V and I nearly just plugged it in out of habit (as you can do > with modern power supplies). I decided to read the manual, however and > was so glad I did. 240V into it without flipping the little board over > and changing the fuse would have been a disaster! I didn't have a 1.25 > amp fuse but a 1 amp worked ok. > > Second issue was opening the cover! It wasn't in the manual and I > couldn't find it anywhere on the net. I figured it out in the end > (undo the screw at top rear and remove the top two feet and slide the > top back). My top didn't slide easily and so it wasn't obvious. > > My third issue I'm not sure how it happened and I think it was a bug. > After lots of prior fiddling I started taking measurements between two > 1 PPS readings from two different GPSDOs (Thunderbolt and Z3815A) and > it was telling me the difference was 980 nsec. Checking the waveforms > on an oscilloscope said it should have been of the order of 3 nsec. > This had me stumped for ages until I clicked the DSP REF button and it > showed -977! This was obviously from previous fiddling but I thought > the SET REF button would be lit if REFERENCE was non zero. I haven't > been able to repeat this. Any ideas? Motto here is always click CLR > REF to be sure. > > Another thing I don't understand is to do with frequency measurements. > Gating with 0.01, 0.1 or 1 second gives good results for a reference > 10 MHz, but why does measuring the same frequency with the 1 PERIOD > set and say 1000 samples not give good results? > > Thanks in advance, > > Jim > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5370B arrived - any FAQ
Why, you use your 8082A! I got one for a steal a couple of years ago on EBay. However, all you really need is a fast rise-time pulse generator that has external triggering and a variable trigger delay, and can generate a +1/-1 volt swing. The frequency the tests use aren't that critical, anything 1Mhz or higher should work. The only semi-critical parameter is the rise time; the faster it is, the less trigger uncertainty you'll have. 1ns is good. :) Also, unless the delay time setting is rather fine, it's extremely difficult to actually do the anti-coincidence alignment. What I'm missing is a spectrum analyzer, so I haven't done the frequency multiplier alignment on either of my 5370s. Any tricks for doing that without one? Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Chuck Harris wrote: wje wrote: Freq vs time interval - simplistic answer: when you're using time-gating, you're looking at more samples than in averaged one-period mode. For 10Mhz, a gate of 0.1 secs is 1 million periods. In period mode, you're averaging a maximum of 100,000 periods. Accuracy is proportional to the square root of the number of samples. Also, the trigger point jitter when in one-period mode affects every sample, but when in gate mode it only affects the first and last cycle. The 'specifications' section of the manual gives the formulas for determining both resolution and accuracy (which are NOT the same) for the various modes. I would suggest you go through the detailed alignment procedures even though the unit passes the operational checks. These units almost always have drifted out of alignment in the analog front-end unless you were lucky enough to get a freshly-calibrated one. You can usually significantly improve channel-to-channel trigger consistency and lower the jitter by doing so. What does one do where the tests call for an HP8082A pulse generator? The silly things are so rare that they are priced in the stratosphere! -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [2]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 2. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] cesium clocks..
Having just gone through the process of finding, acquiring, and fixing
an HP 5061A, here are a few pointers for qualifying one for purchase.
The biggest problem you're likely to face is a beam tube that's at
end-of-life. If there is an electronics failure (like mine, read on),
these clocks are really fairly simple to troubleshoot and fix; almost
everything is discrete components; the main circuitry is mostly analog.
If the seller says the unit locks and goes into continuous operation
mode, the quickest check you can ask them for is to report the beam
current. It should be above 15. However, note that this is a relative
measurement. There is a meter adjustment control that sets the meter
sensitivity, and it's possible it's just not properly set. So, a low
beam current isn't an absolute failure indication. With low beam
current, if it locks, then you can still have a working clock. The
primary impact of low current is more noise in the signal, which leads
to greater short-term frequency variation. Even with that, it's still
going to be in the 10e-10 or 10e-11 range. If you average, over time the
accuracy will be about as good as a newer tube.
If it goes into continuous operation for a while but then loses lock,
you're taking your chances. The tube could be so depleted that it can't
maintain lock, or the clock could just not be adjusted properly, or you
could have an electronics failure. A quick check is to ask the seller
for the ion pump current reading. If it's not less than 10, then the
problem could just be that the unit has been sitting around for too long
without the ion pump having been run. This is curable just by having it
run for a few days, or in extreme cases, using an external 3500v 5 ma
supply to run the pump more energetically than the clock itself can.
In any case, if you're feeling ambitious and can get a good price ($500
or less?), give it a shot.
Finally, if it won't lock at all, then either the tube is gone, there is
an electronics problem, the clock is way out of alignment, or the ion
pump hasn't run in a long time. Have the seller report the ion pump
current. If it's over 10, then you might want to take your chances if
you get a good price. If it's less than 10, buy it if you like a
challenge and can get a good deal.
I got mine for $300. It wouldn't lock. The ion pump current was high, so
I decided to give it a shot. I almost got lucky. After running for a few
days, the pump current went to zero, which is good. But, the clock would
only lock for a second or so, then lose lock. After a bit of testing, I
found that the crystal oven had fried itself and some wiring inside the
can. (The design is really stupid; can't imagine why it was packaged the
way it was) Anyway, I rebuilt the oven, fired it up, and now have a
nicely-working clock that locks, stays locked, gives a nice 20 reading
on beam current, and has a high-output tube. BTW, the tube is 25 years
old! ('82).
Finally, if you do need to troubleshoot and align the clock, you can
easily get by with a good ac/dc DVM (10 meg or higher impedance) a 100
Mhz scope, and a reasonably good counter, one that can reliably read 12
Mhz to 1ppm).
If anyone wants any more tips or info, feel free to ask, and good luck!
Bill
--
Bill Ezell
--
They said 'Windows or better'
so I used Linux.
___
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] cesium clocks..
Yes, but my comment is rather specific... my oscillator failed because
the heater pass transistor shorted.
This sent the oven heater into full-on. The overtemp sensor is far
removed from the heater. There's a ribbon cable between the driver board
and the temp bridge sensor board that runs directly over the heater, not
outside the oven insulation. Net result, transistor shorts, cable fries
before overtemp fuse opens. There's no reason the cable should be inside
the oven insulation.
My rebuild fix - (after removing all the carbonized foam insulation)
refoam the oven, replacing the cable and transistor, and moving it
outside the foam!
While I respect in general the brilliance of HP engineers, my classmate
was one, this isn't one of the more intelligent decisions.
Bill Ezell
--
They said 'Windows or better'
so I used Linux.
Dave 'SqueezeBox' Carlson wrote:
> Careful how you toss around the 'stupid' when discussing oscillator design.
> Some folks still have a close relationship to those old 00105-6xxx
> oscillators.
>
> Dave
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "wje" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 4:32 AM
> Subject: [time-nuts] cesium clocks..
>
>
> Having just gone through the process of finding, acquiring, and fixing
> an HP 5061A, here are a few pointers for qualifying one for purchase.
> The biggest problem you're likely to face is a beam tube that's at
> end-of-life. If there is an electronics failure (like mine, read on),
> these clocks are really fairly simple to troubleshoot and fix; almost
> everything is discrete components; the main circuitry is mostly analog.
>
> If the seller says the unit locks and goes into continuous operation
> mode, the quickest check you can ask them for is to report the beam
> current. It should be above 15. However, note that this is a relative
> measurement. There is a meter adjustment control that sets the meter
> sensitivity, and it's possible it's just not properly set. So, a low
> beam current isn't an absolute failure indication. With low beam
> current, if it locks, then you can still have a working clock. The
> primary impact of low current is more noise in the signal, which leads
> to greater short-term frequency variation. Even with that, it's still
> going to be in the 10e-10 or 10e-11 range. If you average, over time the
> accuracy will be about as good as a newer tube.
>
> If it goes into continuous operation for a while but then loses lock,
> you're taking your chances. The tube could be so depleted that it can't
> maintain lock, or the clock could just not be adjusted properly, or you
> could have an electronics failure. A quick check is to ask the seller
> for the ion pump current reading. If it's not less than 10, then the
> problem could just be that the unit has been sitting around for too long
> without the ion pump having been run. This is curable just by having it
> run for a few days, or in extreme cases, using an external 3500v 5 ma
> supply to run the pump more energetically than the clock itself can.
> In any case, if you're feeling ambitious and can get a good price ($500
> or less?), give it a shot.
>
> Finally, if it won't lock at all, then either the tube is gone, there is
> an electronics problem, the clock is way out of alignment, or the ion
> pump hasn't run in a long time. Have the seller report the ion pump
> current. If it's over 10, then you might want to take your chances if
> you get a good price. If it's less than 10, buy it if you like a
> challenge and can get a good deal.
>
> I got mine for $300. It wouldn't lock. The ion pump current was high, so
> I decided to give it a shot. I almost got lucky. After running for a few
> days, the pump current went to zero, which is good. But, the clock would
> only lock for a second or so, then lose lock. After a bit of testing, I
> found that the crystal oven had fried itself and some wiring inside the
> can. (The design is really stupid; can't imagine why it was packaged the
> way it was) Anyway, I rebuilt the oven, fired it up, and now have a
> nicely-working clock that locks, stays locked, gives a nice 20 reading
> on beam current, and has a high-output tube. BTW, the tube is 25 years
> old! ('82).
>
> Finally, if you do need to troubleshoot and align the clock, you can
> easily get by with a good ac/dc DVM (10 meg or higher impedance) a 100
> Mhz scope, and a reasonably good counter, one that can reliably read 12
> Mhz to 1ppm).
>
> If anyone wants any more tips or info, feel free to ask, and good luck!
> Bill
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] cesium clocks..
In this case, the temp thermistor bridge is outside the oven cavity itself. The cable only passes power and the already-processed bridge delta to the heater power amp. So, there's no particular benefit from having the cable stuck to the heater wrap. (at least, I think so; my basic failure was because the cable fried and shorted power to ground) Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Bruce Griffiths wrote: wje wrote: Yes, but my comment is rather specific... my oscillator failed because the heater pass transistor shorted. This sent the oven heater into full-on. The overtemp sensor is far removed from the heater. There's a ribbon cable between the driver board and the temp bridge sensor board that runs directly over the heater, not outside the oven insulation. Net result, transistor shorts, cable fries before overtemp fuse opens. There's no reason the cable should be inside the oven insulation. My rebuild fix - (after removing all the carbonized foam insulation) refoam the oven, replacing the cable and transistor, and moving it outside the foam! While I respect in general the brilliance of HP engineers, my classmate was one, this isn't one of the more intelligent decisions. Bill Ezell Bill The usual reason for running temperature sensor leads over the oven inside the insulation is to thermally shunt them to the oven reducing heat transfer to the temperature sensor via the wiring. Your modification may reduce the oven temperature stability significantly. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [2]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 2. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] cesium clocks..
The heater winding for my 5061A crystal oven doesn't seem to be bifilar wound, but it's a little difficult to tell. Since the heater works, I don't want to risk poking around too much. However, one lead comes in at one end, the other lead is at the other end. BTW, my oven failed again, this time because I was lazy the first time I fixed it. There was a fairly crispy resistor I didn't have a replacement for. It seemed OK, so I left it in place. Of course, it just failed. I had to open everything up again and replace it. While I was in there, just to make everyone happy, I rerouted the power and heater return lines that I had moved outside the foam back inside, replacing them with some nice, Teflon-insulated, fine-gauge wire I had. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Chuck Harris wrote: Bruce Griffiths wrote: Chuck Harris wrote: This is a chicken vs egg sort of problem. When I took apart the oven on my 5065A rubidium, it looked to me as though the enamel insulated nichrome wire developed a short about 50% into the coil, and wiped out the transistor. It also heated the rubidium lamp hot enough to reflow the solder on its circuit board and thoroughly char the PCB's epoxy. I am not sure how the quartz ovens are wound (I suspect they are the same), but with the rubidium ovens, the nichrome wire is wound as a bifilar loop. This is done for two reasons, 1) to cancel the magnetic fields, and 2) to make the start and finish wires of the winding happen at the end of the oven where the terminals are. -Chuck Harris An Ayrton-Perry style winding will also have low magnetic field. There are no doubt hundreds of ways of achieving the same result, but HP used a single layer bifilar winding of enameled nichrome wire that was shorted on the far end. When I replaced the oven winding on my Rubidium, I used a shielded coaxial winding that was also shorted on the far end. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [2]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 2. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5061A tube question
Also, check the Cs oven meter reading. If it's zero, the heater controller/heater/thermocouple is suspect. Normally, when you turn the unit on, the Cs oven will read up near the top of scale, gradually declining as the oven warms up. Mine goes down to about 10 steady-state. If it's doing this, your heater is OK. Another possibility is a dead -2500V HV power supply. If you have a manual, there's a way to check that without an HV meter. If not, let me know and I can write up the procedure for you. If you decide the unit is permanently dead, I need some spares for mine; I'd be willing to talk price for it. (I have a sometimes-flaky synthesizer I haven't bothered to troubleshoot, and I've rebuilt the crystal oven twice) Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ron hunt wrote: > Thanks.I'll Try Your Suggestions.I'm In Schertz Texas.> To: > time-nuts@febo.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:31:34 -0700> From: [EMAIL > PROTECTED]> Subject: [time-nuts] HP5061A tube question> > Hi,> > The tube is > in a vacuum so the ovens heat only has roundabout physical> paths to get to > the outer case. If the tube feels warm at all at both> ends the oven and > hotwire are probably working OK.> > If you have a T type thermocouple > temperature meter you can connect it to> the copper and silver wires coming > out of the potting and measure the> ovens temperature directly.> > Another > way is to let the unit warm up for an hour or so, remove power,> and then > quickly remove the tubes connection to J16.> Then hook an ohmeter from pin 9 > of the removed cable to chassis ground.> > This is measuring the oven > thermistor value and should be close to the> value on the tubes label.> > If > that is OK then I'd recommend performing the low frequency test> outlined in > the manual. This will help determine if the tube is gone or> not.> > > Whereabouts are you located?> > Corby Dawson> > > Sweepstakes!!! > > Enter for your chance to WIN a summer spa getaway!> > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/JKFkuJi7Ujj5Y6Jd6H3JwcutoE5NToavXQ611tmhu7h03vCqu38rRH/> > > ___> time-nuts mailing list -- > time-nuts@febo.com> To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts> and follow the > instructions there. > _ > Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_062008 > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rb references for audiophiles?
Here's a site that has some interesting analyses of some of the various topics covered in this wonderful thread: http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/Analog.html In particular, the advanced topics about halfway down the page have a detailed analysis of the real impact of skin effect. It's actually more that I thought it would be. Of course, it's still insignificant. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Mark Sims wrote: > Oh, dear... now you have me thinking... I have that nifty little > Symmetricom X72 rubidium oscillator... I have a rather old and frumpy > cassette player... I have the technology... I can rebuild it... rubidium > locked CD players are just so last year... rubidium locked turn tables are > just so last week... I'm gonna be the first kid on the block with a rubidium > locked cassette player (patent pending). And remember, rubidium oscillators > have that number one audiosnobio requirement of the glowing vacuum tubey > thingie. Unfortunately no little window to watch it flicker and glow. But > trust me... it's in there. > > I am taking initial orders now. Deposit (non-refundable) of $100,000 or one > active H-maser. Final price to be determined (if you have to ask, your > sorry tin ears can't afford it). For maximum organic audio enjoyment it will > require my DCC (double cotton covered) audio patch cables with the 25 karat > pure unobtainium-235 RCA plugs. A steal at $50,000 per meter. > > > _ > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008 > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Double ovened 10811-60158 on ebay
www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-10811AB-Manual.pdf These seem to be a slight variation on the 10811B, but I imagine the pinouts are the same, other than the connectors. Hmm... I think I'll get one. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Jim Palfreyman wrote: Sorry to pollute the list but some people here may be interested and I think this might be a good buy. Ebay item 250268030266 a bunch of 10811-60158 wrapped up in a second oven that have been pulled from a bunch of HP 58503A. There are 21 units available at US$50 Buy It Now. Postage seems reasonable too. I've bought one and so if anyone knows where I can get the cabling requirements please let me know. Regards, Jim Palfreyman ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [2]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 2. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE5680A signal output
If I remember correctly, the 1PPS pulse width is only about 100 ns. There are two possibilities: 1) you can't see the pulse height properly at the very low sweep rate you're using. Trigger on it at a much higher sweep rate, crank up the intensity on your scope, and look carefully. 2) the output is dead. This happens occasionally. I had to replace the 74ac240 buffer in mine. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Remco den Besten wrote: > I recently obtained a FEI FE-5680A Rb standard Revision: B. > > After powering it up 'out of the box', a lock @ 50.25505.. MHz was obtained > within > a few minutes, confirmed by measuring the lock indicator on pin 3 of J1 and > listening to the signal on my FT 857 receiver. Nice to hear it sweeping > before locking ;-) > Here te levels at pin3 of J1 are: unlocked +4V, locked +1.5V > > A 1PPS signal could not be detected with a multimeter, so I connected a > scope. > > I consider the signal levels somewhat peculiar and am curious if FE 5680A > owners > here have the same experience. E.g. the amplitude of the PPS signal at pin6 > is superimposed on a DC offset of ca. 170 mV and amounts (only?) 25 mV. > It is visible as a small spike here (depending upon the time base of > course). > My perception of a '1PPS' signal is a signal with TTL levels or open > collector out or something, and a pulse width of 10 - 200 ms.. > I connected a 2k2 resistor between pin6 and pin1 (pull up) but could not see > any improvement. The top-top amplitude remained ca. 25 mV. > > Pin6 (measured with scope) spikes with t = 1 sec: > > 200mV | | | > 170mV --|--|--| > > The signal above will be hard to interface, but I feel that perhaps the PPS > output is not 'set' or perhaps broken. > > After powering up, the unit draws 1.6A which gradually decreases to 800mA. > This looks normal. > > Anyone any ideas? > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 5061A and Zeeman freq question
My understanding is that the precise cesium hyperfine transition energy, and hence microwave frequency, is dependent upon the applied C-field, and the field setting to select a particular transition is the same for all clocks (which is why these are primary standards). The C-field is set by applying an LF signal at the correct frequency to cause Zeeman splitting, and optimizing the C-field to peak the splitting. So, shouldn't the Zeeman frequency always be 42.82 Khz, which is what I've seen in every reference? But, my 5061A with a high-performance tube has a sticker that says 'Zeeman freq 53.53 Khz'. I can indeed get Zeeman splitting at that frequency with a C-field setting of 3.45, but is this correct? If so, why? (BTW - I don't seem to be able to get any splitting at 42.82 Khz) Confused, Bill -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] cesium Zeeman frequencies
Thanks all. I reviewed some physics on this, and now it makes sense. Corby, my 5061A is an oldie, it has the early synthesizer that has the UTC offset correction, which I've set to match atomic time (L2095 on the switches). The tube was replaced in '82. So, I need to verify that the C-field current was also adjusted to match the new 76 mGauss setting, right?. Looks like my synthesizer frequency is 12.6317715, so possibly not. This could also explain the 100ps/sec drift wrt my Z3801A. You don't happen to know the proper value for the resistor, do you? Hmm... I wonder if my synthesizer can do ..725 Mhz. I've been toying with the idea of building a new synthesizer using modern a modern digital PLL, going so far as to lay out a PCB for it. Maybe I should follow through on that. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. corby d dawson wrote: > The Zeeman frequency is calculated by the amount of C-field current you > use. > > If you change the Zeeman then to get the unit "on frequency" you then > have to change the synthesizer frequency and the C-field current to > compensate. The amount of C-field change is too big for the front panel > knobpot so a resistor change on the A15 board is required. > > The earlier 5061A current (61miiliGauss) resulted in a synthesizer > frequency of 12.6317716 Mhz giving a corresponding Zeeman frequency of > 48.82Khz. > > On later 5061A and B units HP decided that using a different current (76 > milliGauss) that was more stable which ended up giving you 12.7317725Mhz > and 53.53Khz. > > There is NO difference in the tubes C-field winding (for 5061A/B and > 5071A). The current set resistor on the A15 board and the synthesizer > frequency are the only change. > > Corby Dawson > > Learn about VA loan programs and benefits. Click now. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m3mWguucezHInyDvTMZqPNuZVtJ2PrIg6iEz3xSv6sf8Syt/ > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Double ovened 10811-60158 on ebay
I got one without the outer cover, which isn't quite as useful. I removed all the junk to get down to the orginal non-double-ovened osc. One thing I noticed - I wonder where these were actually deployed? The 10811B itself has a fair amount of corrosion on it, lots of pitting. It still works fine, though. Another thing, the 10811B in mine doesn't have a removable endplate, it's soldered. This makes it a lot more difficult to adjust or repair. Still, I think it's a fine buy for the cost. Now all I have to do is figure out what I really want to do with it. :) Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Angus wrote: I see that the same vendor has a few more units for sale. He has also included a picture that labels all the connections. At least they look to be complete with their outer covers now, which would be useful if anyone did want to add some temp control. Seeing all those oscillators does make me wonder what they came from - a heap of working 58503's going to landfill is close to sacrilege :-) Angus. On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:20:57 -0600, you wrote: Message: 2 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:10:52 +1000 From: "Jim Palfreyman" [1]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [time-nuts] Double ovened 10811-60158 on ebay To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [3]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sorry to pollute the list but some people here may be interested and I think this might be a good buy. Ebay item 250268030266 a bunch of 10811-60158 wrapped up in a second oven that have been pulled from a bunch of HP 58503A. There are 21 units available at US$50 Buy It Now. Postage seems reasonable too. I've bought one and so if anyone knows where I can get the cabling requirements please let me know. Regards, Jim Palfreyman ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [5]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [7]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 4. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 5. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 6. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 7. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Double ovened 10811-60158 on ebay
Two reasons - I don't have the outer can, and I don't have the controller for the outer oven. The controller was on the Z3801 power supply board (which is what I think these came out of, or something very similar). I really just wanted a good tcxo with an efc input, which the bare osc does nicely. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Ed Palmer wrote: Bill, I picked up a couple of these 'naked' oscillators. I was surprised to hear that you stripped yours down. I'm planning to build it back up to its former glory with a controller for the outer oven and a new cover of some sort. Is there any reason not to do that? Thanks, Ed Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:33:07 -0400 From: wje [1]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Double ovened 10811-60158 on ebay To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement [2] Message-ID: [3]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I got one without the outer cover, which isn't quite as useful. I removed all the junk to get down to the orginal non-double-ovened osc. One thing I noticed - I wonder where these were actually deployed? The 10811B itself has a fair amount of corrosion on it, lots of pitting. It still works fine, though. Another thing, the 10811B in mine doesn't have a removable endplate, it's soldered. This makes it a lot more difficult to adjust or repair. Still, I think it's a fine buy for the cost. Now all I have to do is figure out what I really want to do with it. :) Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [5]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 4. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 5. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Stability vs. Accuracy
Simply put, stability is a measure of how much something varies from a constant value. A stable value doesn't mean an accurate value; accuracy is a measure of how close to some standard value a device emits (in this case) or measures, for a meter. So, you could have something that's perfectly stable but not accurate. You can also have something that's accurate but not stable. In theory, they can be perfectly (ok, nearly perfectly) accurate because their lack of stability is averaged out over a long period of time, and the average value is an accurate representation of the time kept by the satellites, which themselves provide an accurate representation of 'true', i.e., NIST time. In practice they wander around a bit, and that wandering is the stability measurement you see. What you can tell from the stability figures is that the unit is that close to perfect accuracy most of the time. The stability figure is really a measure of the statistical probability that at any given time the accuracy is within that bound. Why do they wander? Many factors contribute, ranging from the stability and accuracy of the local VCXO and its control loop to atmospheric propagation variations to variations in the satellite clocks themselves, etc. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Richard Dabney wrote: > I'm not a scientist or engineer but have a question to those of you who are. > > The many recent posts regarding the GPSDOs and comparisons between the > various ones have been comparing stability. How about accuracy compared with > the national frequency standard? > Are stability and accuracy the same? Stability to E-13.5 with the > Thunderbolt. How close to > perfect time and frequency? Thanks...Dick W5UFZFMT-nut > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP58504A antenna
MMIC = Monolithic Microwave Integrated Circuit Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. J. L. Trantham wrote: I have been reading this thread with interest since I enjoy resurrecting 'dead' instruments. Two questions though: 1. Since I have been out of the loop for many years, what is an 'MMIC'? 2. The picture suggests some corrosion or oxidation near the coax cable connection. Has this been cleaned to eliminate any chance of 'shorting' the signal to ground? Thanks, Joe -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [[2]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Adrian Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 6:49 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP58504A antenna Hi José, before trying to fix the antenna, please check if it's still working. Connect it through a bias Tee (for feeding 5 V into the antenna cable, and for decoupling DC from the analyzer) to a spectrum analyzer and use a signal generator with a short wire inserted into the output jack. Set both instruments to1575.42 MHz. Put the antenna near the signal generator (1 meter distance would be fine). You should get enough signal in the air to see if the antenna is working or not. If there is no signal, please check the source and drain voltage at the input FET (left side of your picture), Source is the left terminal, drain the upper one. Also check voltages at the output MMIC (6 pin device). Check input (lower left) and output (upper right) as well as the supply pin (lower right), plus the actual voltage that is coming in from the output coax cable, and report back. Adrian Jose Manuel schrieb: Hello all, I´d like to repair a HP58504A antenna that don´t deliver any output signal. The current is about 30 mA ( I think too high), and the transistor (unknown type) and the MMIC (uPC2749TB), seems to be with correct voltage. Does anyone have any experience or data about this antenna? I took an inside photo: [3]http://www.ea1px.es/HP58504A.jpg Can the transistor be identified by the color code? Thanks in advance, José, EA1PX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [5]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [7]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [9]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. http://www.ea1px.es/HP58504A.jpg 4. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 5. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 6. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 7. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 8. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 9. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] How to get 32.768KHz from 10MHz.
I was faced with this problem a few years ago, too. I essentially followed John's solution, but used the 1pps GPS pulse as the PLL reference. I then used the 32.768K vco output to injection-lock the 32.768K crystal on the LCD clock. Much to my surprise, it worked quite well. And, as pointed out already, jitter isn't an issue for this application. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. John Franke wrote: The only thing that comes to mind is to divide the 10 MHz by 250 (5x5x10) and then use a phase locked loop to multiply by 8192. Of course the PLL would best control a varactor with a clock crystal vice controlling an RC oscillator. Other divisor multiplier pairs are: 125/4096, 625000/2048, 312500/1024, 156250/512, and 78125/256. John WA4WDL - Original Message - From: "Max Skop" [1]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [2] Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:09 AM Subject: [time-nuts] How to get 32.768KHz from 10MHz. How does one get a 32.768KHz signal from our 10MHz reference. There does not appear to be a nice divide ratio to do this. With a locked 32.768KHz signal one could lock the oscillator of any of the cheap (low cost) LCD clocks that are available with nice big digits, temperature sensors and calendars, etc. Any suggestions on how to do it?? Regards Max ps. I got sucked in good. Six months ago all I had was an HP 10811 and now I have another crystal oscillator, two rubidiums and a Trimble GPS. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [4]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [6]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 3. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 4. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 5. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 6. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 5061A S/N ratio, EM voltage questions
Can someone provide a sanity check on my S/N and FOM measurements? I've used the procedure in my manual, but there is one rather vague calculation involving 2.3 e 13 x V403b. I assume this is actually 2.3 e -13 x (noise voltage in mv), because otherwise the other calculations result in absurd values. I have a high-output tube and got the following measurements: Vpeak -278 mv Vvalley -81 mv Vbase -65 mv which gives a 'flop' of 3.03. Using the more advanced measurements for the high-output tube, I get: Isig 1.97 e -9 Inoise 6.44 e-13 (assuming my comment abut the V403b calculation is correct; I measured a noise voltage of 2.8 mv rms). which gives an S/N ratio of 3059 (!) and a FOM of 7.89. This is all from a 25-year-old CBT, so I'm a bit suspicious. It does lock and stay locked, even in low-flux mode, though. As for the EM voltage, I measured a peak beam current of 3.6 e -9 amps; HP says the acceptable low bound is 8 e -9. This current makes sense, since the tube is so old. So, would it be useful to increase the EM voltage from 1700 (as marked on the CBT and verified) to increase the beam current? I assume doing so would accelerate the deterioration of the EM, though, so maybe I should leave well enough alone. BTW, I had to make up a precision 100 meg probe to do the Vp, Vv, and Vb measurements; my voltmeter has a 1 e 13 ohm input resistance, which makes the technique in the manual useless. (a Solartron 7081 8.5 digit beauty) -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP 5371A problem
The cpu card in my 5371A seems to have died. It's asserting reset constantly, with lights 1 and 6 on. Unfortunately, my service manual doesn't include any schematics for that card. Does anyone have any suggestions? (other than doing a lot of tedious tracing) -- Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5371A problem
Thanks. I don't know how I missed those manuals on the Agilent site; I had looked there a while ago. Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Bruce Griffiths wrote: wje wrote: The cpu card in my 5371A seems to have died. It's asserting reset constantly, with lights 1 and 6 on. Unfortunately, my service manual doesn't include any schematics for that card. Does anyone have any suggestions? (other than doing a lot of tedious tracing) Correction: Figure 7G8 on page 7G17 for the processor board schematic. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, go to [2]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 2. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5371A problem
Thanks, all. In this case, it was a 74ALS1035 OC hex buffer that gave up the ghost. I've temporarily replaced it with 6 diodes, which works like a charm. After all, what's an OC buffer but a diode plus a little 1x gain? Bill Ezell -- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Jürg Kögel wrote: > My 5372A had the same problems. > Error: Contact problems in IC sockets and jumpers > Remove IC and jumpers and put those back. > This solved my problems > > Juerg > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
