[tips] Pavlov and bells
Paul Brandon told us: OK -- I cleaned up the Wikipedia article a bit. It did already indicate that Pavlov used a number of different conditional stimuli. Fast action! Much better now. The entry under Classical Conditioning needs similar treatment. The myth will not die. I also have reservations about the continued endorsement in the Wikipedia entry of Roger Thomas' claim (in an otherwise fine article) to have discovered bells in Pavlov's past. The entry reads: Catania[29] cast doubt on whether Pavlov ever actually used a bell in his famous experiments... until Thomas [31 (AJP, 1997)] found several references that unambiguously stated Pavlov did, indeed, use a bell. Consider Thomas's references: 1) In a 1906 lecture published in _Science_, Pavlov noted the relative ineffectiveness of a violent ringing of a bell as a CS for salivation. Thomas himself discounts this reference as there was no indication that the bell was effective at lower intensities. A bell which does not work seems a poor impetus for generating the Pavlov bell legend. Thomas's second reference is to Pudovkin's film _Mechanics of the Brain_. He did not view the film himself (not so easily done back then) but rashly depended on _Time Magazine's_ account of it, despite later in the article pointing out _Time's_ tendency to fabrication as illustrated by its account of Pavlov's mugging (Aside from that, Dr. Pavlov, did you enjoy your visit to New York?) (that's me, BTW, not _Time_) As anyone can see for themselve now on the Vimeo link, _Time's_ claim that the film showed dogs which dripped saliva at the sound of a bell is pure fiction. In fact, a metronome figures prominently in the proceedings, and a hand bell makes an appearance only to elicit an orienting reflex. No bell is used to elicit salivation. Thomas's final reference is to Lamarckian experiments involving electric bells, carried out late in Pavlov's career (probably well after the legend was started) and which Pavlov eventually repudiated. This in itself would not recommend it as the origin of a myth, but there are other reasons: -Anrep, Pavlov's translator, when using the term electric bell routinely described it as buzzing and the bell itself was sometimes referred to as an electric buzzer. This is not the bell of legend, which goes ding-dong rather than buzz. -The experiment concerned mice, not dogs, and running to food, not salivation And that's all Thomas had. This is far from the unambigous support claimed to document the use of the bell to condition salivation reported by Wikipedia. More on the film: the Vimeo link provided by Mike P. at http://vimeo.com/20583313 is not the original Myekhanika Golovnogo Mozga (Mechanics of the Brain) but a version edited for an English audience called Function of the Brain. I have a videotape (remember that?) copy of the original _Mechanics_ obtained with considerable difficulty from the British Film Institute. Nevertheless the Vimeo version corresponds well to what I remember of the last time I looked at the original, except that the Vimeo version seems to be truncated.. There was more human stuff in the original involving childbirth or breast-feeding, children puzzle-solving, and footage showing an intellectually-impaired adult. I also have a video copy of the Vimeo one which turns out to have been kindly sent to me back in 2004 by someone named Chris Green. One of the more disturbing aspects of this film, Peta aside, is the treatment of children depicted in it. One child is clearly shown with a surgically-implanted artificial fistula for studying salivary conditioning. The child was probably an orphan and ethics committees were many years in the future. Wikipedia also took note of this: It is less widely known that Pavlov's experiments on the conditional reflex extended to children, some of whom underwent surgical procedures, similar to those performed on the dogs, for the collection of saliva. Stephen Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca - --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28179 or send a blank email to leave-28179-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Pavlov and bells
I think the evidence points to the fact that what was called (or translated?) as “bell” was not indicative of the hand bell we see pictured in textbooks but was instead what we would call today a “buzzer” (at least where I am from – descriptors like this probably vary regionally). This does make a bit of a difference because whereas a bell of the type often pictured would make a fairly discrete sound (that would take some time to fade), both a metronome and a buzzer can sustain the stimulus presentation until the delivery of the US which would work better for the delay conditioning procedure where the onset of the CS precedes but continues until the delivery of the US. Rick Dr. Rick Froman, Chair Division of Humanities and Social Sciences Professor of Psychology Box 3519 John Brown University 2000 W. University Siloam Springs, AR 72761 rfro...@jbu.edumailto:rfro...@jbu.edu (479) 524-7295 http://bit.ly/DrFroman From: Christopher Green [mailto:chri...@yorku.ca] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:57 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: [tips] Pavlov and bells Pavlov's (1927) CONDITIONED REFLEXES: AN INVESTIGATION OF THE = PHYSIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY OF THE CEREBRAL CORTEX: p. 27: With another dog the loud buzzing of an electric bell set going = 5 to 10 seconds after administration of food failed to establish a = conditioned alimentary reflex even after 374 combinations, p. 34: A [p. 34] dog has two primary alimentary conditioned stimuli = firmly established, one to the sound of a metronome and the other to the = buzzing of an electric bell. p. 145: There were used, for example, in one case the four tones C, D, = E, F of one octave; and in another case the four stimuli were made up of = a noise, two different tones and the sound of a bell. Chris --- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 Canada chri...@yorku.camailto:chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ - On 2013-09-26, at 5:23 PM, sbl...@ubishops.camailto:sbl...@ubishops.ca wrote: On 26 Sep 2013 at 17:07, Christopher Green wrote: =20 Thomas, R. K. (1997). Correcting some Pavlovian regarding Pavlov's bell and Pavlov's mugging. American Journal of Psychology , 110, 115-125. Read it, consider his evidence, and then get back to me. Stephen Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada e-mail: sblack at ubishops.cahttp://ubishops.ca/ - --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: rfro...@jbu.edumailto:rfro...@jbu.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5f8an=Tl=tipso=28145 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-28145-13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-28145-13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28152 or send a blank email to leave-28152-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells
I have the Dover edition of Conditioned Reflexes in English (Anrep, translator) and I don't recall bells, but there are buzzers, metronomes, light flashes and tactile stimuli. The Russian word for bell .. well, hard to do on keyboard... 'E'BOHOK but my 'E' is that iconic backwards E which is not an E in Russian, and the B and H are pronounced more like English V and N . someone must have access to the original ... == John W. Kulig, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Coordinator, Psychology Honors Plymouth State University Plymouth NH 03264 == - Original Message - From: rfro...@jbu.edu To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 8:54:23 AM Subject: RE: [tips] Pavlov and bells I think the evidence points to the fact that what was called (or translated?) as “bell” was not indicative of the hand bell we see pictured in textbooks but was instead what we would call today a “buzzer” (at least where I am from – descriptors like this probably vary regionally). This does make a bit of a difference because whereas a bell of the type often pictured would make a fairly discrete sound (that would take some time to fade), both a metronome and a buzzer can sustain the stimulus presentation until the delivery of the US which would work better for the delay conditioning procedure where the onset of the CS precedes but continues until the delivery of the US. Rick Dr. Rick Froman, Chair Division of Humanities and Social Sciences Professor of Psychology Box 3519 John Brown University 2000 W. University Siloam Springs, AR 72761 rfro...@jbu.edu (479) 524-7295 http://bit.ly/DrFroman From: Christopher Green [mailto:chri...@yorku.ca] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:57 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: [tips] Pavlov and bells Pavlov's (1927) CONDITIONED REFLEXES: AN INVESTIGATION OF THE = PHYSIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY OF THE CEREBRAL CORTEX: p. 27: With another dog the loud buzzing of an electric bell set going = 5 to 10 seconds after administration of food failed to establish a = conditioned alimentary reflex even after 374 combinations, p. 34: A [p. 34] dog has two primary alimentary conditioned stimuli = firmly established, one to the sound of a metronome and the other to the = buzzing of an electric bell. p. 145: There were used, for example, in one case the four tones C, D, = E, F of one octave; and in another case the four stimuli were made up of = a noise, two different tones and the sound of a bell. Chris --- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 Canada chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ - On 2013-09-26, at 5:23 PM, sbl...@ubishops.ca wrote: On 26 Sep 2013 at 17:07, Christopher Green wrote: =20 blockquote blockquote Thomas, R. K. (1997). Correcting some Pavlovian regarding Pavlov's /blockquote /blockquote blockquote blockquote bell and Pavlov's mugging. American Journal of Psychology , 110, /blockquote /blockquote blockquote blockquote 115-125. /blockquote /blockquote blockquote /blockquote blockquote Read it, consider his evidence, and then get back to me. /blockquote blockquote /blockquote blockquote Stephen /blockquote blockquote /blockquote blockquote /blockquote blockquote /blockquote blockquote Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. /blockquote blockquote Professor of Psychology, Emeritus /blockquote blockquote Bishop's University /blockquote blockquote Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada /blockquote blockquote e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca /blockquote blockquote - /blockquote --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: rfro...@jbu.edu . To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5f8an=Tl=tipso=28145 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-28145-13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: ku...@mail.plymouth.edu . To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66454n=Tl=tipso=28152 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-28152-13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28153 or send a blank email to leave
Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 06:21:08 -0700, John Kulig wrote: I have the Dover edition of Conditioned Reflexes in English (Anrep, translator) and I don't recall bells, but there are buzzers, metronomes, light flashes and tactile stimuli. The Russian word for bell .. well, hard to do on keyboard... 'E'BOHOK but my 'E' is that iconic backwards E which is not an E in Russian, and the B and H are pronounced more like English V and N . someone must have access to the original ... May I suggest that for those who are interested, go to the Google translate page and enter bell on the left side and ask for a Russian translation; see: https://translate.google.com/?hl=entab=TTauthuser=0#en/ru/bell One will see various Russian words in Cyrillic that will be more or less close translations of the English word bell. I believe that the word the John is referring to above is звонок and it listed second. I would make good sense to ask a Russian with knowledge of Pavlov's writings to provide appropriate translations and interpretations. As for whether a bell is different from a buzzer, I'm not sure what the point it is. It's like asking what is the difference between a d*ck and an @sshole. But some people might be interested is such things. -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28154 or send a blank email to leave-28154-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells
Yup .. that's the word! Don't know how to get the Russian font on my keyboard. == John W. Kulig, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Coordinator, Psychology Honors Plymouth State University Plymouth NH 03264 == - Original Message - From: Mike Palij m...@nyu.edu To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu Cc: Michael Palij m...@nyu.edu Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 9:58:48 AM Subject: Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 06:21:08 -0700, John Kulig wrote: I have the Dover edition of Conditioned Reflexes in English (Anrep, translator) and I don't recall bells, but there are buzzers, metronomes, light flashes and tactile stimuli. The Russian word for bell .. well, hard to do on keyboard... 'E'BOHOK but my 'E' is that iconic backwards E which is not an E in Russian, and the B and H are pronounced more like English V and N . someone must have access to the original ... May I suggest that for those who are interested, go to the Google translate page and enter bell on the left side and ask for a Russian translation; see: https://translate.google.com/?hl=entab=TTauthuser=0#en/ru/bell One will see various Russian words in Cyrillic that will be more or less close translations of the English word bell. I believe that the word the John is referring to above is звонок and it listed second. I would make good sense to ask a Russian with knowledge of Pavlov's writings to provide appropriate translations and interpretations. As for whether a bell is different from a buzzer, I'm not sure what the point it is. It's like asking what is the difference between a d*ck and an @sshole. But some people might be interested is such things. -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: ku...@mail.plymouth.edu . To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66454n=Tl=tipso=28154 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-28154-13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28155 or send a blank email to leave-28155-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells
Rick, It was not a buzzer. It was an electric bell. We know this because just after the first passage is another sentence in which a buzzer is mentioned, so Anrep (the translator) could distinguish between the two. The mistranslation (if it is one) is in describing the action of a bell a buzzing rather than ringing (though if it was this style of bell -- http://www.stmary.ws/highschool/physics/home/notes/electricity/magnetism/elec_bell_36084_lg.gif -- then I think it is easy to understand why he might have used that word). I don't think that it was not a hand bell (or a dinner bell, as Stephen called it) means that it wasn't a bell. Pavlov clearly used a bell sometimes. He used it repeatedly. So the answer to the question of whether Pavlov used a bell is clearly yes. It is the denial that he ever used a bell that is the myth. Not the claim that he did. Chris --- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 Canada chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ = On 2013-09-27, at 8:54 AM, rfro...@jbu.edu wrote: I think the evidence points to the fact that what was called (or translated?) as “bell” was not indicative of the hand bell we see pictured in textbooks but was instead what we would call today a “buzzer” (at least where I am from – descriptors like this probably vary regionally). This does make a bit of a difference because whereas a bell of the type often pictured would make a fairly discrete sound (that would take some time to fade), both a metronome and a buzzer can sustain the stimulus presentation until the delivery of the US which would work better for the delay conditioning procedure where the onset of the CS precedes but continues until the delivery of the US. Rick Dr. Rick Froman, Chair Division of Humanities and Social Sciences Professor of Psychology Box 3519 John Brown University 2000 W. University Siloam Springs, AR 72761 rfro...@jbu.edu (479) 524-7295 http://bit.ly/DrFroman From: Christopher Green [mailto:chri...@yorku.ca] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:57 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: [tips] Pavlov and bells Pavlov's (1927) CONDITIONED REFLEXES: AN INVESTIGATION OF THE = PHYSIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY OF THE CEREBRAL CORTEX: p. 27: With another dog the loud buzzing of an electric bell set going = 5 to 10 seconds after administration of food failed to establish a = conditioned alimentary reflex even after 374 combinations, p. 34: A [p. 34] dog has two primary alimentary conditioned stimuli = firmly established, one to the sound of a metronome and the other to the = buzzing of an electric bell. p. 145: There were used, for example, in one case the four tones C, D, = E, F of one octave; and in another case the four stimuli were made up of = a noise, two different tones and the sound of a bell. Chris --- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 Canada chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ - On 2013-09-26, at 5:23 PM, sbl...@ubishops.ca wrote: On 26 Sep 2013 at 17:07, Christopher Green wrote: =20 Thomas, R. K. (1997). Correcting some Pavlovian regarding Pavlov's bell and Pavlov's mugging. American Journal of Psychology , 110, 115-125. Read it, consider his evidence, and then get back to me. Stephen Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca - --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: rfro...@jbu.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5f8an=Tl=tipso=28145 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-28145-13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: chri...@yorku.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62bd92n=Tl=tipso=28152 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-28152-430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62b...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28157 or send a blank email to leave-28157-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells
On 27 Sep 2013 at 10:31, Christopher Green wrote: Pavlov clearly used a bell sometimes. He used it repeatedly. So the answer to the question of whether Pavlov used a bell is clearly yes. It is the denial that he ever used a bell that is the myth I'll concede that there are two instances where Pavlov referred to the use of a belll (not a buzzer) in salivary conditioning: 1) in the report published in _Science_ in 1906 where he noted the ineffectiveness of the violent ringing of a bell; and (2) in the description of a bell as a compound stimulus retrieved by Chris from _Conditioned Reflexes_. I would not describe the frequency of this use sometimes or repeatedly, I would call it rare and special use, and most unlike the common concepton of how Pavlov used a bell. On the other hand, there is the evidence (or lack of it) in Pudovkin's film Mechanics of the Brain, described in a New York Times review dated 1928 as based on experiments made by Professor Ivan Pavlov [which] presumes to be a film digest of his many years of work. The Times review notes that the Russian representative further describes the film as depicting twenty-seven years of uninterrupted thinking concerning the nature of animal and human behavior, and is, in fact, an animated photgraphic record of the experiments and studies of a single individual, Professor Pavlov. It includes footage of a dog salivating to the ticking of a metronome. It also includes footage of a dog showing an orienting reaction to the sound of a hand bell. It does not show a single instance of a dog salivating to the sound of a bell. This, incidentally, makes the description in Time magazine in 1928 that the film shows dogs which dripped saliva at the sound of a bell pure fiction (see Thomas's article (in AJP, 1997) for further examples of Time Magazine's predilection for fabrication in relation to Pavlov's adventures). Yet Wikipedia assures us: Pavlov had learned then when a bell was rung in subsequent time with food being presented to the dog in consecutive sequences, the dog will initially salivate when the food is presented. The dog will later come to associate the ringing of the bell with the presentation of the food and salivate upon the ringing of the bell. Similarly, the Nobel Foundation tells us: In a series of experiments, Pavlov then tried to figure out how these phenomena were linked. For example, he struck a bell when the dogs were fed. If the bell was sounded in close association with their meal, the dogs learnt to associate the sound of the bell with food. After a while, at the mere sound of the bell, they responded by drooling. Or you could just search on Pavlov and bell, and come up with a thousand such descriptions. Or go to textbooks of introductory psychology. There's a real mystery here. Why, when there is such an extraordinary poverty of evidence that Pavlov's work was fundamentally based on observing the salivary behaviour of a dog in response to a ringing bell, do people continue to believe this? That's the myth. Stephen Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca - --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28160 or send a blank email to leave-28160-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells
One possibility for why we don't remember the metronome could be that it doesn't fit well into our schemas for CS. My limited memory of a metronome is a thing on a piano that makes noise continuously. A bell is more of a discrete stimulus. Rick Stevens Psychology Department University of Louisiana at Monroe stevens.r...@gmail.com OSGrid - Evert Snicks On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 12:32 AM, sbl...@ubishops.ca wrote: On 27 Sep 2013 at 0:56, Christopher Green wrote: Pavlov's (1927) CONDITIONED REFLEXES: AN INVESTIGATION OF THE = PHYSIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY OF THE CEREBRAL CORTEX: p. 27: With another dog the loud buzzing of an electric bell set going = 5 to 10 seconds after administration of food failed to establish a = conditioned alimentary reflex even after 374 combinations, p. 34: A [p. 34] dog has two primary alimentary conditioned stimuli = firmly established, one to the sound of a metronome and the other to the = buzzing of an electric bell. p. 145: There were used, for example, in one case the four tones C, D, = E, F of one octave; and in another case the four stimuli were made up of = a noise, two different tones and the sound of a bell. Good response. Careful reading. But note: 1) a buzzer is not a bell 2) a single mention of the sound of a bell as part of a compound stimulus in an entire work devoted to the study of classical conditioning does not persuade. Where is the archetypal dinner bell, ringing in solitary majesty to evoke dog slobber, as pictured in a thousand introductory textbooks of psychology? Nevertheless, I see I have to take greater care in how I phrase my myth. In my note which Jim Matiya retrieved, I expressed it like this ...that Pavlov routinely used a bell in training salivary conditioning in dogs. Now really. How do we get from an occasional buzzer, and a rare instance of a compound stimulus which includes a bell, to the universal belief (minus one) that when Pavlov wanted to condition dog drool, it was bells all the way down. If we had to remember something about Pavlov and his dogs, why didn't we remember the metronome? Stephen Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca - --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: stevens.r...@gmail.com. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13526.d532f8e870faf8a0d8f6433b7952f38dn=Tl=tipso=28149 or send a blank email to leave-28149-13526.d532f8e870faf8a0d8f6433b7952f...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28161 or send a blank email to leave-28161-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells
OK -- I cleaned up the Wikipedia article a bit. It did already indicate that Pavlov used a number of different conditional stimuli. On Sep 27, 2013, at 11:06 AM, sbl...@ubishops.ca wrote: Yet Wikipedia assures us: Pavlov had learned then when a bell was rung in subsequent time with food being presented to the dog in consecutive sequences, the dog will initially salivate when the food is presented. The dog will later come to associate the ringing of the bell with the presentation of the food and salivate upon the ringing of the bell. Similarly, the Nobel Foundation tells us: In a series of experiments, Pavlov then tried to figure out how these phenomena were linked. For example, he struck a bell when the dogs were fed. If the bell was sounded in close association with their meal, the dogs learnt to associate the sound of the bell with food. After a while, at the mere sound of the bell, they responded by drooling. Or you could just search on Pavlov and bell, and come up with a thousand such descriptions. Or go to textbooks of introductory psychology. There's a real mystery here. Why, when there is such an extraordinary poverty of evidence that Pavlov's work was fundamentally based on observing the salivary behaviour of a dog in response to a ringing bell, do people continue to believe this? That's the myth. Stephen Paul Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato pkbra...@hickorytech.net --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28162 or send a blank email to leave-28162-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Pavlov and bells
Hi I'm not sure the distinction between buzzer and bell is as sharp as Stephen is suggesting. Here's Wikipedia on electromechanical buzzers, presumably the kind available to Pavlov. Early devices were based on an electromechanical system identical to an electric bell without the metal gong. So does it boil down to whether there was a gong at the end of the arm? Or perhaps the same device was used sometimes with and sometimes without a gong. Take care Jim Jim Clark Professor Chair of Psychology 204-786-9757 4L41A -Original Message- From: sbl...@ubishops.ca [mailto:sbl...@ubishops.ca] Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 11:08 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells On 27 Sep 2013 at 10:31, Christopher Green wrote: Pavlov clearly used a bell sometimes. He used it repeatedly. So the answer to the question of whether Pavlov used a bell is clearly yes. It is the denial that he ever used a bell that is the myth I'll concede that there are two instances where Pavlov referred to the use of a belll (not a buzzer) in salivary conditioning: 1) in the report published in _Science_ in 1906 where he noted the ineffectiveness of the violent ringing of a bell; and (2) in the description of a bell as a compound stimulus retrieved by Chris from _Conditioned Reflexes_. I would not describe the frequency of this use sometimes or repeatedly, I would call it rare and special use, and most unlike the common concepton of how Pavlov used a bell. On the other hand, there is the evidence (or lack of it) in Pudovkin's film Mechanics of the Brain, described in a New York Times review dated 1928 as based on experiments made by Professor Ivan Pavlov [which] presumes to be a film digest of his many years of work. The Times review notes that the Russian representative further describes the film as depicting twenty-seven years of uninterrupted thinking concerning the nature of animal and human behavior, and is, in fact, an animated photgraphic record of the experiments and studies of a single individual, Professor Pavlov. It includes footage of a dog salivating to the ticking of a metronome. It also includes footage of a dog showing an orienting reaction to the sound of a hand bell. It does not show a single instance of a dog salivating to the sound of a bell. This, incidentally, makes the description in Time magazine in 1928 that the film shows dogs which dripped saliva at the sound of a bell pure fiction (see Thomas's article (in AJP, 1997) for further examples of Time Magazine's predilection for fabrication in relation to Pavlov's adventures). Yet Wikipedia assures us: Pavlov had learned then when a bell was rung in subsequent time with food being presented to the dog in consecutive sequences, the dog will initially salivate when the food is presented. The dog will later come to associate the ringing of the bell with the presentation of the food and salivate upon the ringing of the bell. Similarly, the Nobel Foundation tells us: In a series of experiments, Pavlov then tried to figure out how these phenomena were linked. For example, he struck a bell when the dogs were fed. If the bell was sounded in close association with their meal, the dogs learnt to associate the sound of the bell with food. After a while, at the mere sound of the bell, they responded by drooling. Or you could just search on Pavlov and bell, and come up with a thousand such descriptions. Or go to textbooks of introductory psychology. There's a real mystery here. Why, when there is such an extraordinary poverty of evidence that Pavlov's work was fundamentally based on observing the salivary behaviour of a dog in response to a ringing bell, do people continue to believe this? That's the myth. Stephen Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca - --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a891720c9n=Tl=tipso=28160 or send a blank email to leave-28160-13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a89172...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28163 or send a blank email to leave-28163-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Pavlov and bells
Rick Stevens suggested: One possibility for why we don't remember the metronome could be that it doesn't fit well into our schemas for CS. My limited memory of a metronome is a thing on a piano that makes noise continuously. A bell is more of a discrete stimulus. I think this is exactly why the bell vs. metronome is a useful pedagogical distinction. A bell is a discrete stimulus that would work as a CS in trace conditioning (where there is a trace interval between the off-set of the CS and the onset of the US) and a metronome or buzzer would work as a CS in delay conditioning (where the CS continues and overlaps with the onset of the US). The delay procedure usually produces the quickest learning so, although the discrete bell would work, it would take longer to train than the metronome or buzzer. I think the delay procedure would have been likely to have been used more often except when studying the effects of trace conditioning. To do some myth-building myself, the metronome always made sense to me as the logical next step after Pavlov discovered that the dogs he was studying for his work on digestion were salivating before the food was put into their mouths. I assume (without evidence) that they hypothesized that the dogs began salivating to the psychic stimulus of the footsteps of the lab assistant approaching to provide the food and then the metronome was eventually used to simulate approaching footsteps. So that's my myth. Rick Dr. Rick Froman, Chair Division of Humanities and Social Sciences Professor of Psychology Box 3519 John Brown University 2000 W. University Siloam Springs, AR 72761 rfro...@jbu.edumailto:rfro...@jbu.edu (479) 524-7295 http://bit.ly/DrFroman --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28164 or send a blank email to leave-28164-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells
On 9/27/2013 12:24 PM, Rick Stevens wrote: One possibility for why we don't remember the metronome could be that it doesn't fit well into our schemas for CS. My limited memory of a metronome is a thing on a piano that makes noise continuously. A bell is more of a discrete stimulus. Rick Stevens Psychology Department University of Louisiana at Monroe stevens.r...@gmail.com mailto:stevens.r...@gmail.com OSGrid - Evert Snicks One advantage of a metronome is that it gives you a wide range of stimuli that can be varied systematically. Kenneth M. Steele, Ph. D.steel...@appstate.edu Professor Department of Psychology http://www.psych.appstate.edu Appalachian State University Boone, NC 28608 USA --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28165 or send a blank email to leave-28165-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 09:08:59 -0700, Stephen Black wrote: On 27 Sep 2013 at 10:31, Christopher Green wrote: Pavlov clearly used a bell sometimes. He used it repeatedly. So the answer to the question of whether Pavlov used a bell is clearly yes. It is the denial that he ever used a bell that is the myth I'll concede that there are two instances where Pavlov referred to the use of a belll (not a buzzer) in salivary conditioning: 1) in the report published in _Science_ in 1906 where he noted the ineffectiveness of the violent ringing of a bell; and (2) in the description of a bell as a compound stimulus retrieved by Chris from _Conditioned Reflexes_. Far be it for me to come between two Canadians engaged in a pissing contest but allow me to make a couple of points: (1) The film that Prof. Black refers to (i.e., the NY Times review) is available on the web and can be downloadable here: http://vimeo.com/20583313 It is a silent film with cards with Russian and English explanations. (2) At about the 12 minute mark there is a transition to the classical conditioning experiments beginning with the ringing of a hand bell to produce a startle response in a dog. The bell is not used in any of the experimental displays that are presented but a key point made in the series of experimental studies presented is that anything can be used as a conditioned stimulus. The use of the metronome is presented but not only to show that it can be used as a conditioned stimulus but that an animal can discriminate the clicking made at different frequencies, only one of which is predictive of the unconditioned stimulus. This is an interesting demonstration of discrimination learning. Other species including humans are used. I personally like the use of the orangutan. Members of Peta will lose their minds watching this video. With regard to whether or not Pavlov used a bell as an unconditioned stimulus in any experiments may I suggest that that interested parties read the reports of the studies in the original Russian or have someone familiar with Russian scientific writing read it. English speaking folks talking about what they think are in Russian scientific journals is like listening to virgins talk about the joys of vaginal sex. YMMV. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28166 or send a blank email to leave-28166-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells
On 9/27/2013 1:23 PM, Mike Palij wrote: (1) The film that Prof. Black refers to (i.e., the NY Times review) is available on the web and can be downloadable here: http://vimeo.com/20583313 Wow!! Imagine showing the 15-37 min section of that film in class. Ken Kenneth M. Steele, Ph. D.steel...@appstate.edu Professor Department of Psychology http://www.psych.appstate.edu Appalachian State University Boone, NC 28608 USA --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28167 or send a blank email to leave-28167-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
[tips] Pavlov and bells
Pavlov's (1927) CONDITIONED REFLEXES: AN INVESTIGATION OF THE = PHYSIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY OF THE CEREBRAL CORTEX: p. 27: With another dog the loud buzzing of an electric bell set going = 5 to 10 seconds after administration of food failed to establish a = conditioned alimentary reflex even after 374 combinations, p. 34: A [p. 34] dog has two primary alimentary conditioned stimuli = firmly established, one to the sound of a metronome and the other to the = buzzing of an electric bell. p. 145: There were used, for example, in one case the four tones C, D, = E, F of one octave; and in another case the four stimuli were made up of = a noise, two different tones and the sound of a bell. Chris --- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 Canada chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ - On 2013-09-26, at 5:23 PM, sbl...@ubishops.ca wrote: On 26 Sep 2013 at 17:07, Christopher Green wrote: =20 Thomas, R. K. (1997). Correcting some Pavlovian regarding Pavlov's bell and Pavlov's mugging. American Journal of Psychology , 110, 115-125. Read it, consider his evidence, and then get back to me. Stephen Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca - --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28145 or send a blank email to leave-28145-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Pavlov and bells
On 27 Sep 2013 at 0:56, Christopher Green wrote: Pavlov's (1927) CONDITIONED REFLEXES: AN INVESTIGATION OF THE = PHYSIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY OF THE CEREBRAL CORTEX: p. 27: With another dog the loud buzzing of an electric bell set going = 5 to 10 seconds after administration of food failed to establish a = conditioned alimentary reflex even after 374 combinations, p. 34: A [p. 34] dog has two primary alimentary conditioned stimuli = firmly established, one to the sound of a metronome and the other to the = buzzing of an electric bell. p. 145: There were used, for example, in one case the four tones C, D, = E, F of one octave; and in another case the four stimuli were made up of = a noise, two different tones and the sound of a bell. Good response. Careful reading. But note: 1) a buzzer is not a bell 2) a single mention of the sound of a bell as part of a compound stimulus in an entire work devoted to the study of classical conditioning does not persuade. Where is the archetypal dinner bell, ringing in solitary majesty to evoke dog slobber, as pictured in a thousand introductory textbooks of psychology? Nevertheless, I see I have to take greater care in how I phrase my myth. In my note which Jim Matiya retrieved, I expressed it like this ...that Pavlov routinely used a bell in training salivary conditioning in dogs. Now really. How do we get from an occasional buzzer, and a rare instance of a compound stimulus which includes a bell, to the universal belief (minus one) that when Pavlov wanted to condition dog drool, it was bells all the way down. If we had to remember something about Pavlov and his dogs, why didn't we remember the metronome? Stephen Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca - --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=28149 or send a blank email to leave-28149-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
