RE: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
-Original Message- From: V. Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 21 January 2003 23:04 TC5 is ways of. And I think everyone can agree that JDK1.4 is more stable than 1.3. I don't agree. Stability is the sum of your whole infrastructure, API, web servers etc etc. Most of my old sites are 1.3 and a handful of new ones are on 1.4, for my purposes seem to be as stable as another. Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
I'm very happy that Tomcat works well on 1.4, I can't however see any reason to requiring 1.4, what are the benefits? Should we artificially create obstacles for the sake of it? +1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
-Original Message- From: Sean Reilly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 21 January 2003 23:37 To: Tomcat Developers List Subject: RE: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4? The many other arguments against requiring 1.4 notwithstanding (and I'm not attempting to refute _any_ of them here), it would seem to me that testing a major version change of Tomcat + a JVM change wouldn't incur much more overhead than testing a major version change of Tomcat alone. Does anyone have any comments/opinions/counterarguments? Or should I just shut my trap and concentrate on the other reasons requiring J2SE 1.4 is a bad idea ;-) I'm very happy that Tomcat works well on 1.4, I can't however see any reason to requiring 1.4, what are the benefits? Should we artificially create obstacles for the sake of it? Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
I'm very happy that Tomcat works well on 1.4, I can't however see any reason to requiring 1.4, what are the benefits? Should we artificially create obstacles for the sake of it? Martin Would you be more happier if JDK 1.4 made tomcat faster and more stable and have less jars, relative to other containers? Nothing to lose people, and something to gain. 1.3 has a bad GC for one. I think TC4 = JDK1.3, but TC5 = JDK1.4. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
V. Cekvenich wrote: I'm very happy that Tomcat works well on 1.4, I can't however see any reason to requiring 1.4, what are the benefits? Should we artificially create obstacles for the sake of it? Martin Would you be more happier if JDK 1.4 made tomcat faster and more stable and have less jars, relative to other containers? Nothing to lose people, and something to gain. 1.3 has a bad GC for one. I think TC4 = JDK1.3, but TC5 = JDK1.4. TC5, TC4 and TC3 requires also external jars, like jakarta-commons-logging, beantutils and so on, so there will be still external jars. Also many features in JDK 1.4 and which could be required in TC4/5 are also present in OSS land, like ssl/crypto and for many of us it sometimes mandatory to use OSS libraries when using crypto stuff, that's why there is PureTLS/Cryptix supported by TC3/4/5 via JTC. So could we close this stream which generate more noise and personal opinion than usefull advices on a developper list ? Thanks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
V. Cekvenich wrote: I'm very happy that Tomcat works well on 1.4, I can't however see any reason to requiring 1.4, what are the benefits? Should we artificially create obstacles for the sake of it? Martin Would you be more happier if JDK 1.4 made tomcat faster and more stable and have less jars, relative to other containers? Nothing to lose people, and something to gain. 1.3 has a bad GC for one. A lot to lose, little to gain. You can use JDK1.4 with tomcat5.0 ( or tomcat3.0 if you want ), and so get the stability and speed - without removing the choice to use JDK1.3 or open source VMs for other people. A lot of people preffer more jars ( they can choose to replace ) versus the bloated rt.jar. Jasper requires Xerces2.x.y - while JDK1.4 bundles crimson. Log4j is better for logging than what is bundled in 1.4. Do you see many programs that work only on windowsXP, but not on 2000 or 9x ? Are people writting many applications that work only on MacOS X 1.4, but not on MacOS X 1.3 ( I have no idea what's the real version number ) ? Most linux applications will work even with 0.99 kernel ( after a recompilation maybe ). What we lose is choice - and that's a _lot_. Choice to use an open source VM, choice on the OS/platforms we support ( think FreeBSD and Linux on Arm/Sparc/PPC ), etc. I think TC4 = JDK1.3, but TC5 = JDK1.4. Let's close this discussion. This is a decision that tomcat committers can make. My vote will be -1. Costin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
Sorry if I'm intruding here, I've been following the discussion and I have to say I agree with Costin... What we have here is that due to a JDK14 bug that's preventing our application from working properly we have to stay with JDK131 for now until JDK142 is out. We're trying to move to a newer version of TC (406 or 4118?) from 401 which is what we've been using without any problem. The thing is that with TC406 or 4118, it seems that it takes a long time to shut down (around 30 - 40 secs), could be related to bug 3597, however TC401 is fine, so I think in a sense, TC has already become unfriendly with JDK131...to say the least... When we tried JDK141 + TC406/4118, it works just fine... Any comments would be greatly appreciated...:-) Jindong. -Original Message- From: Costin Manolache [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4? V. Cekvenich wrote: I'm very happy that Tomcat works well on 1.4, I can't however see any reason to requiring 1.4, what are the benefits? Should we artificially create obstacles for the sake of it? Martin Would you be more happier if JDK 1.4 made tomcat faster and more stable and have less jars, relative to other containers? Nothing to lose people, and something to gain. 1.3 has a bad GC for one. A lot to lose, little to gain. You can use JDK1.4 with tomcat5.0 ( or tomcat3.0 if you want ), and so get the stability and speed - without removing the choice to use JDK1.3 or open source VMs for other people. A lot of people preffer more jars ( they can choose to replace ) versus the bloated rt.jar. Jasper requires Xerces2.x.y - while JDK1.4 bundles crimson. Log4j is better for logging than what is bundled in 1.4. Do you see many programs that work only on windowsXP, but not on 2000 or 9x ? Are people writting many applications that work only on MacOS X 1.4, but not on MacOS X 1.3 ( I have no idea what's the real version number ) ? Most linux applications will work even with 0.99 kernel ( after a recompilation maybe ). What we lose is choice - and that's a _lot_. Choice to use an open source VM, choice on the OS/platforms we support ( think FreeBSD and Linux on Arm/Sparc/PPC ), etc. I think TC4 = JDK1.3, but TC5 = JDK1.4. Let's close this discussion. This is a decision that tomcat committers can make. My vote will be -1. Costin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
In Java, the whole point is you can go switch out a VM, at a drop of a hat. I mean, JDK 1.5 is coming out. That's just moronic and plain wrong and if you truly believe that I'm feeling sorry for you. If you'd had any experience running live servers you'd know that changing API's _always_ have consequences. I'm worried about even changing trivial things like upgrading minor versions of XML parsers. To change the VM I rely on is a serious undertaking and certainly not done at a drop of a hat. But if I am the only one asking, maybe I am drunk. The thing is go to your IDE (IDEj) and flag target 1.4, do you see all the import changes? IDE? Flag target 1.4? That says it then. The first thing I ask programmers I hire is How do you prefer to program? What is your environment like? ... If the answer is along the lines of vi, emacs, notepad, zsh, bash, windows command line, then I feel much relieved... Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
Howdy, The first thing I ask programmers I hire is How do you prefer to program? What is your environment like? ... If the answer is along the lines of vi, emacs, notepad, zsh, bash, windows command line, then I feel much relieved... Wow, that's kind of amazing -- I use the exact same question and like the same answers ;) Yoav Shapira Millennium ChemInformatics -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
This is off topic, but I do the same. Glenn Shapira, Yoav wrote: Howdy, The first thing I ask programmers I hire is How do you prefer to program? What is your environment like? ... If the answer is along the lines of vi, emacs, notepad, zsh, bash, windows command line, then I feel much relieved... Wow, that's kind of amazing -- I use the exact same question and like the same answers ;) Yoav Shapira Millennium ChemInformatics -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- Glenn Nielsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] | /* Spelin donut madder| MOREnet System Programming | * if iz ina coment. | Missouri Research and Education Network | */ | -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
V. Cekvenich wrote: For TC 4 OK, but TC5 will have tested 4 vendors JVM 1.4. Most people run JDK 1.4 now. There is at least one person which didn't run JDK 1.4, me, since the JDK 1.4 is not available on my iSeries. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
V. Cekvenich wrote: Glenn Nielsen wrote: V. Cekvenich wrote: For TC 4 OK, but TC5 will have tested 4 vendors JVM 1.4. Most people run JDK 1.4 now. Perhaps you do, but where is the data to support your claim above that most people run JDK 1.4? Going around to clients site. What are you running.. Those who have systems in production and have spent alot of time developing applications which are hosted on those systems can't do a major upgrade like JVM 1.3 - JVM 1.4 at the drop of a hat. Drop of the hat == when is TC5 due? Anyway, no one is arguing my side that we must have progress. JRockit, a popular VM is JDK 1.4. And IBM has a download that supports AS400 on 1.4, and Apple is coming out. In Java, the whole point is you can go switch out a VM, at a drop of a hat. I mean, JDK 1.5 is coming out. iSeries got support for 1.4 ? I just discovered it but I didn't see how to get it on my V5R2 and there is not a major announce of it on iseries site. BTW, why should we make JDK 1.4 mandatory ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
I use Idea. I should start learning vi :-) ( well, I do use emacs and vi a lot - but not for java, so I may still have a chance ... ) Costin Glenn Nielsen wrote: This is off topic, but I do the same. Glenn Shapira, Yoav wrote: Howdy, The first thing I ask programmers I hire is How do you prefer to program? What is your environment like? ... If the answer is along the lines of vi, emacs, notepad, zsh, bash, windows command line, then I feel much relieved... Wow, that's kind of amazing -- I use the exact same question and like the same answers ;) Yoav Shapira Millennium ChemInformatics -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
Costin Manolache wrote: I use Idea. I should start learning vi :-) ( well, I do use emacs and vi a lot - but not for java, so I may still have a chance ... ) I use vi for at least 14 years, but for java dev I turned to eclipse last year, and it's hard to reswicth to vi ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
Martin Algesten wrote: I use vi for at least 14 years, but for java dev I turned to eclipse last year, and it's hard to reswicth to vi ;) Wow! I tried to use Borland J something or another a long time ago and got to frustrated that I didn't have control over what I was doing... what are the advantages? Very fast navigation if you work with hundreds of classes. Code completion that works ( and is context sensitive, displays param info as you type, etc ). Refactoring ( rename or move something and it'll find all usages and replace them ). Find who uses or implements something. I only used vi 12 years, and emacs for about 7 - but I don't think I can turn back. ( eclipse looks nice, but it needs real key customization. Netbeans is even nicer - but too slow for my laptop ) Costin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
I use vi for at least 14 years, but for java dev I turned to eclipse last year, and it's hard to reswicth to vi ;) Wow! I tried to use Borland J something or another a long time ago and got to frustrated that I didn't have control over what I was doing... what are the advantages? Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
iSeris has JDK 1.4 download from IBM, that is my point. (BEA, and Apple have it as well so we have multi source). Today when you download Tomcat 4 you have the 1.4 LE edition just loook at the site Also downloading a jar, ex: http://jdbc.postgresql.org/download.html have 1.4 required. Today! TC5 is ways of. And I think everyone can agree that JDK1.4 is more stable than 1.3. .V Henri Gomez wrote: V. Cekvenich wrote: For TC 4 OK, but TC5 will have tested 4 vendors JVM 1.4. Most people run JDK 1.4 now. There is at least one person which didn't run JDK 1.4, me, since the JDK 1.4 is not available on my iSeries. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
This might start a bit of a flame-fest here, and if so I appologize, but I feel that this is a valid point. A lot of people have been critizing V. Cekvenich for his suggestion, and one of the common reasons given was: Those who have systems in production and have spent alot of time developing applications which are hosted on those systems can't do a major upgrade like JVM 1.3 - JVM 1.4 at the drop of a hat. This particular version of the argument was posted by Glenn, and I believe he's correct in stating this. However, if you can't do a major upgrade like JVM 1.3 - JVM 1.4 at the drop of a hat, why would you consider a major upgrade like Tomcat 4.X - Tomcat 5 at the drop of a hat? The many other arguments against requiring 1.4 notwithstanding (and I'm not attempting to refute _any_ of them here), it would seem to me that testing a major version change of Tomcat + a JVM change wouldn't incur much more overhead than testing a major version change of Tomcat alone. Does anyone have any comments/opinions/counterarguments? Or should I just shut my trap and concentrate on the other reasons requiring J2SE 1.4 is a bad idea ;-) Sean Reilly Software Architect, Point2 Technologies, Inc. (306) 955-1855 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: V. Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 5:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4? iSeris has JDK 1.4 download from IBM, that is my point. (BEA, and Apple have it as well so we have multi source). Today when you download Tomcat 4 you have the 1.4 LE edition just loook at the site Also downloading a jar, ex: http://jdbc.postgresql.org/download.html have 1.4 required. Today! TC5 is ways of. And I think everyone can agree that JDK1.4 is more stable than 1.3. .V Henri Gomez wrote: V. Cekvenich wrote: For TC 4 OK, but TC5 will have tested 4 vendors JVM 1.4. Most people run JDK 1.4 now. There is at least one person which didn't run JDK 1.4, me, since the JDK 1.4 is not available on my iSeries. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
V. Cekvenich wrote: Does Tomcat 5 Target JDK 1.4? It not...it should please. Apple, IBM, BEA have JDK1.4 (betas) available to download. The imports might change a bit. Tomcat5 should support JDK 1.4 but JDK 1.4 MUST NOT BE A PRE REQUISITE for TC 5 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
Why? I say TC5 should require JDK1.4 or above. TC5 is JSP2.0. JDK1.4 is now available from multiple sources. It would make some code and imports easier. Even now, TC4 is run on JDK1.4. There is JDK 1.5 coming up, we would be one back. We do need to move ahead, and clean up the import so that TC5 does not need to carry as much jars. V Henri Gomez wrote: V. Cekvenich wrote: Does Tomcat 5 Target JDK 1.4? It not...it should please. Apple, IBM, BEA have JDK1.4 (betas) available to download. The imports might change a bit. Tomcat5 should support JDK 1.4 but JDK 1.4 MUST NOT BE A PRE REQUISITE for TC 5 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
For TC 4 OK, but TC5 will have tested 4 vendors JVM 1.4. Most people run JDK 1.4 now. Costin Manolache wrote: V. Cekvenich wrote: Why? I say TC5 should require JDK1.4 or above. Why would you decide for what other people ? TC5 is JSP2.0. JDK1.4 is now available from multiple sources. It would make some code and imports easier. Not everyone can play with the VM version they run. Production servers usually preffer more tested and stable VMs. Some people may also preffer an open-source VM ( kaffe, GCJ, etc ). Costin Even now, TC4 is run on JDK1.4. There is JDK 1.5 coming up, we would be one back. We do need to move ahead, and clean up the import so that TC5 does not need to carry as much jars. V Henri Gomez wrote: V. Cekvenich wrote: Does Tomcat 5 Target JDK 1.4? It not...it should please. Apple, IBM, BEA have JDK1.4 (betas) available to download. The imports might change a bit. Tomcat5 should support JDK 1.4 but JDK 1.4 MUST NOT BE A PRE REQUISITE for TC 5 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
V. Cekvenich wrote: For TC 4 OK, but TC5 will have tested 4 vendors JVM 1.4. Most people run JDK 1.4 now. Perhaps you do, but where is the data to support your claim above that most people run JDK 1.4? Those who have systems in production and have spent alot of time developing applications which are hosted on those systems can't do a major upgrade like JVM 1.3 - JVM 1.4 at the drop of a hat. Glenn -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
Howdy, Most people run JDK 1.4 now. Where, pray tell, did you gather that statistical gem? ;) Yoav Shapira Millennium ChemInformatics -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat 5 target JDK1.4?
Glenn Nielsen wrote: V. Cekvenich wrote: For TC 4 OK, but TC5 will have tested 4 vendors JVM 1.4. Most people run JDK 1.4 now. Perhaps you do, but where is the data to support your claim above that most people run JDK 1.4? Going around to clients site. What are you running.. Those who have systems in production and have spent alot of time developing applications which are hosted on those systems can't do a major upgrade like JVM 1.3 - JVM 1.4 at the drop of a hat. Drop of the hat == when is TC5 due? Anyway, no one is arguing my side that we must have progress. JRockit, a popular VM is JDK 1.4. And IBM has a download that supports AS400 on 1.4, and Apple is coming out. In Java, the whole point is you can go switch out a VM, at a drop of a hat. I mean, JDK 1.5 is coming out. But if I am the only one asking, maybe I am drunk. The thing is go to your IDE (IDEj) and flag target 1.4, do you see all the import changes? .V Glenn -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
