RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Since I will be occasionally receiving messages in the 10Mbyte range, I
can't read in a line at a time - it takes too long.
The bug in the code below is because BufferedReader.read() will not
necessarily return the whole buffer. So I replace the line
reader.read(charArr);
With this:
int length = req.getContentLength();
char [] charArr = new char[length];
int readResult = 0;
int sum = 0;
do {
sum += readResult;
length -= readResult;
readResult = reader.read(charArr, sum, length);
} while (readResult length);
Thanks for your help. Any other critiques on the use of the standard
library are welcome.
Dan
-Original Message-
From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:30 AM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Howdy,
public void service(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) {
BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
try {
char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
reader.read(charArr);
String str = new String(charArr);
try {
File f = new File(servlet.out);
PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
out.print(str);
out.flush();
out.close();
} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
} catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); } }
What happens if you ditch the req.getContentLength() approach (there are
times when it will be -1 anyways), and do something like: BufferedReader
reader = req.getReader(); StringBuffer contents = new StringBuffer();
String line = null; while((line = reader.readLine()) != null) {
contents.append(line);
}
System.out.println(contents);
(Later we'll worry about the writing -- first make sure you're reading
the entire contents).
Yoav Shapira
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communication, and may contain information that is confidential,
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RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
This code will be running in a controlled environment, with known
clients, where the largest message size is known (~10M). This code
takes the entire body and forwards it on to another messaging system, so
I have no choice but to deal with the entire message. And I can't read
it a byte or line at a time, because it would take too long.
Take a look at my other response to this subject to see the code that
fixed my problem. I am open to any other suggestions
Dan
-Original Message-
From: Walker Chris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 1:21 AM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Hi,
I should have thought that as a general principle it's not a good idea
to try to store the response in a byte array. I recently worked on a
piece of code that did just that (worse, actually, it then copied the
array into a String). Sooner or later a really big upload will blow up
the application.
Reading and writing a byte at a time (with appropriate buffering)
requires a bit more ingenuity, especially when you're searching for
things like boundary strings in the response, but it's the only way to
remove any constraint on upload size.
Chris Walker
-Original Message-
From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 September 2003 19:30
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Howdy,
public void service(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) {
BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
try {
char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
reader.read(charArr);
String str = new String(charArr);
try {
File f = new File(servlet.out);
PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
out.print(str);
out.flush();
out.close();
} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
} catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); } }
What happens if you ditch the req.getContentLength() approach (there are
times when it will be -1 anyways), and do something like: BufferedReader
reader = req.getReader(); StringBuffer contents = new StringBuffer();
String line = null; while((line = reader.readLine()) != null) {
contents.append(line);
}
System.out.println(contents);
(Later we'll worry about the writing -- first make sure you're reading
the entire contents).
Yoav Shapira
This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business
communication, and may contain information that is confidential,
proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the
individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied,
printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an)
intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your
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RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Howdy,
Seems like a very decent fix. Thanks for posting it so others can have
a future reference solution ;)
I wonder if there's a java.nio solution that will perform better...
Yoav Shapira
Millennium ChemInformatics
-Original Message-
From: Stewart, Daniel J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 12:34 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Since I will be occasionally receiving messages in the 10Mbyte range, I
can't read in a line at a time - it takes too long.
The bug in the code below is because BufferedReader.read() will not
necessarily return the whole buffer. So I replace the line
reader.read(charArr);
With this:
int length = req.getContentLength();
char [] charArr = new char[length];
int readResult = 0;
int sum = 0;
do {
sum += readResult;
length -= readResult;
readResult = reader.read(charArr, sum, length);
} while (readResult length);
Thanks for your help. Any other critiques on the use of the standard
library are welcome.
Dan
-Original Message-
From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:30 AM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Howdy,
public void service(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) {
BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
try {
char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
reader.read(charArr);
String str = new String(charArr);
try {
File f = new File(servlet.out);
PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
out.print(str);
out.flush();
out.close();
} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
} catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); } }
What happens if you ditch the req.getContentLength() approach (there
are
times when it will be -1 anyways), and do something like:
BufferedReader
reader = req.getReader(); StringBuffer contents = new StringBuffer();
String line = null; while((line = reader.readLine()) != null) {
contents.append(line);
}
System.out.println(contents);
(Later we'll worry about the writing -- first make sure you're reading
the entire contents).
Yoav Shapira
This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business
communication, and may contain information that is confidential,
proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the
individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied,
printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an)
intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your
computer system and notify the sender. Thank you.
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To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Unless your client is very conforming to the rules (ie. Content-Length is
is correct wrt to available bytes) you could be waiting for a while for the
stream of data to come across or until your socket read statement timeout
int length = req.getContentLength();
ByteArrayOutputStream baos = new ByteArrayOutputStream();
int count = 0
int total = 0;
byte[] buf = new byte[8192]; // not sure which OS u have but if u are on Windows,
// use 8192 for the default OS block size
InputStream is = req.getInputStream();
while ( (count = is.read(buf) ) != -1)
{
total += count;
baos.write(buf,0,count);
}
if (total != length)
{
// handle this case as u see fit.
}
last note: bytearray is prob. better than reader/char array unless
you don't intend to handle non-character data.
int length = req.getContentLength();
char [] charArr = new char[length];
int readResult = 0;
int sum = 0;
do {
sum += readResult;
length -= readResult;
readResult = reader.read(charArr, sum, length);
} while (readResult length);
Howdy,
Seems like a very decent fix. Thanks for posting it so
others can have
a future reference solution ;)
I wonder if there's a java.nio solution that will perform better...
Yoav Shapira
Millennium ChemInformatics
-Original Message-
From: Stewart, Daniel J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 12:34 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Since I will be occasionally receiving messages in the
10Mbyte range, I
can't read in a line at a time - it takes too long.
The bug in the code below is because BufferedReader.read() will not
necessarily return the whole buffer. So I replace the line
reader.read(charArr);
With this:
int length = req.getContentLength();
char [] charArr = new char[length];
int readResult = 0;
int sum = 0;
do {
sum += readResult;
length -= readResult;
readResult = reader.read(charArr, sum, length);
} while (readResult length);
Thanks for your help. Any other critiques on the use of the standard
library are welcome.
Dan
-Original Message-
From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:30 AM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Howdy,
public void service(HttpServletRequest req,
HttpServletResponse res) {
BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
try {
char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
reader.read(charArr);
String str = new String(charArr);
try {
File f = new File(servlet.out);
PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
out.print(str);
out.flush();
out.close();
} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
} catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); } }
What happens if you ditch the req.getContentLength() approach (there
are
times when it will be -1 anyways), and do something like:
BufferedReader
reader = req.getReader(); StringBuffer contents = new StringBuffer();
String line = null; while((line = reader.readLine()) != null) {
contents.append(line);
}
System.out.println(contents);
(Later we'll worry about the writing -- first make sure
you're reading
the entire contents).
Yoav Shapira
This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business
communication, and may contain information that is confidential,
proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the
individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied,
printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an)
intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your
computer system and notify the sender. Thank you.
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed,
and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by
anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient,
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RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Hi,
I should have thought that as a general principle it's not a good idea to
try to store the response in a byte array. I recently worked on a piece of
code that did just that (worse, actually, it then copied the array into a
String). Sooner or later a really big upload will blow up the application.
Reading and writing a byte at a time (with appropriate buffering) requires a
bit more ingenuity, especially when you're searching for things like
boundary strings in the response, but it's the only way to remove any
constraint on upload size.
Chris Walker
-Original Message-
From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 September 2003 19:30
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Howdy,
public void service(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) {
BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
try {
char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
reader.read(charArr);
String str = new String(charArr);
try {
File f = new File(servlet.out);
PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
out.print(str);
out.flush();
out.close();
} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
} catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
}
What happens if you ditch the req.getContentLength() approach (there are
times when it will be -1 anyways), and do something like:
BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
StringBuffer contents = new StringBuffer();
String line = null;
while((line = reader.readLine()) != null) {
contents.append(line);
}
System.out.println(contents);
(Later we'll worry about the writing -- first make sure you're reading
the entire contents).
Yoav Shapira
This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business
communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary
and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to
whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or
used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please
immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the
sender. Thank you.
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
When receiving a HTTP 1.0 POST with a 10kbyte payload, my doPost() method writes the message body to a file. The file is the right size, but my data is nulled out (set to 0) after correctly receiving about 2kbytes. In frustration, I set the Connector bufferSize parameter to 100, to discover that I could now receive about 4kbytes of my 10kbyte message. I then proceeded to write my own Java server to receive the message and write it to a file, and it works just fine. I am at a loss - can anyone suggest what could be causing this problem? Vitals: Tomcat version: 4.1.27 Tomcat configuration: Out-of-the-box (except for my app's WEB-INF) OS: solaris 2.9 My servlet skill level: medium-low - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Howdy, Perhaps if you share your servlet which writes the message body to a file, we could help you write a better servlet ;) Yoav Shapira Millennium ChemInformatics -Original Message- From: Stewart, Daniel J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages When receiving a HTTP 1.0 POST with a 10kbyte payload, my doPost() method writes the message body to a file. The file is the right size, but my data is nulled out (set to 0) after correctly receiving about 2kbytes. In frustration, I set the Connector bufferSize parameter to 100, to discover that I could now receive about 4kbytes of my 10kbyte message. I then proceeded to write my own Java server to receive the message and write it to a file, and it works just fine. I am at a loss - can anyone suggest what could be causing this problem? Vitals: Tomcat version: 4.1.27 Tomcat configuration: Out-of-the-box (except for my app's WEB-INF) OS: solaris 2.9 My servlet skill level: medium-low - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Here it is:
public class AdapterServlet extends HttpServlet {
public void service(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) {
BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
try {
char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
reader.read(charArr);
String str = new String(charArr);
try {
File f = new File(servlet.out);
PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
out.print(str);
out.flush();
out.close();
} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
} catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
}
-Original Message-
From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:34 AM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Howdy,
Perhaps if you share your servlet which writes the message body to a
file, we could help you write a better servlet ;)
Yoav Shapira
Millennium ChemInformatics
-Original Message-
From: Stewart, Daniel J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:31 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
When receiving a HTTP 1.0 POST with a 10kbyte payload, my doPost()
method writes the message body to a file. The file is the right size,
but my data is nulled out (set to 0) after correctly receiving about
2kbytes.
In frustration, I set the Connector bufferSize parameter to 100,
to discover that I could now receive about 4kbytes of my 10kbyte
message. I then proceeded to write my own Java server to receive the
message and write it to a file, and it works just fine.
I am at a loss - can anyone suggest what could be causing this problem?
Vitals:
Tomcat version: 4.1.27
Tomcat configuration: Out-of-the-box (except for my app's WEB-INF)
OS: solaris 2.9
My servlet skill level: medium-low
-
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RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
Howdy,
public void service(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) {
BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
try {
char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
reader.read(charArr);
String str = new String(charArr);
try {
File f = new File(servlet.out);
PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
out.print(str);
out.flush();
out.close();
} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
} catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
}
What happens if you ditch the req.getContentLength() approach (there are
times when it will be -1 anyways), and do something like:
BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
StringBuffer contents = new StringBuffer();
String line = null;
while((line = reader.readLine()) != null) {
contents.append(line);
}
System.out.println(contents);
(Later we'll worry about the writing -- first make sure you're reading
the entire contents).
Yoav Shapira
This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and
may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This
e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be
saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an)
intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system
and notify the sender. Thank you.
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
Hi Frans! Frans Thamura wrote: I think, Gomez must create tomcat-doc ASAP. I agree completely! Let people do what they do best. Un saludo, Alex.
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
Nick == Nick Stoianov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nick I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the Nick open source community but this is why I think that TOMCAT Nick sucks: Some of the points you're mentioning are not Tomcat specific, but general problems for free software: incomplete documentation, lack of guaranteed support (only through mailing lists etc, hoping someone helps you, where in practice b.t.w. support often is much better than bought support). The answers are standard too and have been mentioned 1000s of times before: - you have the source - you can improve it yourself, why don't YOU write some documentation, fix some bugs or add some functionality?!? Probably free software (such as Linux, FreeBSD, tomcat, apache, emacs, perl) isn't for you; you better stick with MSFT stuff and stop bothering us. It doesn't work well, but at least you have guaranteed support, documentation which only teaches you some tricks but doesn't show the real API's (since even those are closed) let alone the inner workings. On Tomcat specifically, I can only say that I'm running Tomcat4 beta-5 for a critical Intranet server. It replaced JRUN some time ago (which really SUCKS by the way). Documenation has been sufficient for my purposes, and those parts lacking can be found from the examples and from the source code (can you read/understand source code by the way?!?). I don't need integration with some other webserver, so those are no issue for me. I can't comment on everyones needs and setup, but for my case Tomcat4 fits perfectly well, provides a solid implementation of the Servlet 2.3 API and is 100% reliable. -- Peter Mutsaers | Dübendorf| UNIX - Live free or die [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Switzerland | Sent via FreeBSD 4.3-stable
RE: JRUN really SUCKS (was TOMCAT SUCKS)
Re ... It replaced JRUN some time ago (which really SUCKS by the way) ... Peter, can share your thoughts here re exactly how? We're looking at a few JSP engines, and am really short of eminformed/em opinions. Thanks. Arnold Shore Annapolis, MD USA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Peter Mutsaers Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 2:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS ... On Tomcat specifically, I can only say that I'm running Tomcat4 beta-5 for a critical Intranet server. It replaced JRUN some time ago (which really SUCKS by the way). Documenation ...
RE: JRUN really SUCKS (was TOMCAT SUCKS)
We have to finish this conversation ASAP. I want to add to you. I am a ERP consultant, you know SAP or Oracle, I am in Oracle arena. This software cost US$100.000 My experience is Oracle is SUCK, even the support, They sell software WITH THOUSAND BUGS and this make make they pay me more .. haha .. strange business. Oracle #2 in the world but they got a bugs in their application esp Oracle Application (ERP). Oh yah, one thing, Oracle made a 1000 pages documentation permodule (Oracle have more than 48 modules) .. God... 48.000 pages, and still not enough for me as a consultant. My college is SAP consultant, said that too, SAP is more complicated. I learn from this week (speaking SUCK everyday)..We have to try to improve tomcat, tomcat must be a foundation all apache project (JetSpeed, Cocoon, Turbine etc). Because we all in one brand name apache.org. We have to help each others. We all got a good lesson, why don't we think we will better than commercial software later, and we can be like Great Bridge in listed in Fortune with their PostgreSQL. Oke, Who will create tomcat-doc mailing list.. I need that.. but... what happen if there is a syntax, and all the tomcat-doc mailing list got problem. Basically, the question of syntax is - Description - Sample Just it. I think we need tomcat-user and tomcat-dev members also. Frans --- Arnold Shore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Re ... It replaced JRUN some time ago (which really SUCKS by the way) ... Peter, can share your thoughts here re exactly how? We're looking at a few JSP engines, and am really short of eminformed/em opinions. Thanks. Arnold Shore Annapolis, MD USA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Peter Mutsaers Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 2:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS ... On Tomcat specifically, I can only say that I'm running Tomcat4 beta-5 for a critical Intranet server. It replaced JRUN some time ago (which really SUCKS by the way). Documenation ... __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
My experience: I am ebiz consultant, in every my engangement, I did 2/3 of my project with documentation. And most of them have to be rework, and redone, because bad content.. I think we cannot say all the TQ guy don't like that. All the TQ and commiter must start with that, this will give all of us benefit? CVS is not enough. Do you ever count how many people email to this mailing list and ask? My Tomcat is not work with my IIS in W2K??? more than once every week.. See.. this is not an effective, isn't it? because no documentation explain of this? are we have to wait the Devshed.com, or someone post in his web site, and no link from this web site??? It is not a good solution also. I think, Gomez must create tomcat-doc ASAP. Frans - Original Message - From: Alex Fernández [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 3:54 PM Subject: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS Hi Jeff! Noll, Jeff HS wrote: Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want to fight. Yes you can (and should). Do you know why engineers are so bad writers of user documentation? Because they are so embedded in the technical point of view that it takes a big effort to revert to user mind. That's why there are technical writers in the world. Open Source is about scratching your itches (usually at what you do best). I don't want lousy manuals written by overworked engineers -- that's worse than nothing. But some users have contributed excellent guides, although they are not as handy as they should be. That's the reason why it's so disgusting to hear folks complaining about the docs. If you have an itch, you don't ask dad to scratch it any more -- you know exactly the sore point. If you're willing to make the docs better, I'm sure you'll get all the support you need. For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information is on MSDN? On MSDN you don't have access at the internal workings of software, reasons behind design choices or bugs that have been corrected and are recurrent. In the tomcat-dev archives you can find all of that and much more. On MSDN you cannot speak to the actual engineers that did the job and drove the architecture forward. In the tomcat-dev list you can. The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects fail miserably. Most open source projects fail in lack of commitment from the dev/user community. Bad docs are just a consequence of poor user commitment (in that field, in others like bug finding we excel). Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just argueing the point). Un saludo, Alex. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS
I think a commiter must create a draft article, explain tomcat, and there will be a team, that will review, and ask that article, and may be several of those articles have a comment.. see php manual in php.net The team update the article, and after that. this like CVS for documentation, and the documentation is focus in English first, and follow with any other language. Frans - Original Message - From: Tim Stoop [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS Carlos Ferreira wrote: i could help with translations: french, german, portuguese And I with the Dutch version. I'd also be willing to write, but I'm quite new with Tomcat and since I started with JServ a year and a half ago, Tomcat isn't very transparant for me, I'm afraid... _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS
I think i can be Interested, because when you make documentation you get know product best. Tuukka ps. Tomcat really don't suX someone just do get i right:) Pioneering isn't easiest thing to do. --- --Me olemme keskella jotain. jossa olemme totaalisen ulkopuolisia-- On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:41:52 GOMEZ Henri wrote: Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want to fight. Could we close this thread positively ? We all know that tomcat documentation is incomplete and we need help in that area. Tomcat IS AN OPENSOURCE project with a big user community, Jon Stevens recently reported more than 50-100k downloads / month. Everybody could be involved in the project, and not necessary developpers. I'm sure there is around potentials documentation redactors. So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ? -- For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information is on MSDN? The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects fail miserably. Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just argueing the point). Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/
Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS
i could help with translations: french, german, portuguese - Original Message - From: GOMEZ Henri [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 9:41 AM Subject: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want to fight. Could we close this thread positively ? We all know that tomcat documentation is incomplete and we need help in that area. Tomcat IS AN OPENSOURCE project with a big user community, Jon Stevens recently reported more than 50-100k downloads / month. Everybody could be involved in the project, and not necessary developpers. I'm sure there is around potentials documentation redactors. So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ? -- For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information is on MSDN? The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects fail miserably. Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just argueing the point).
Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS
Carlos Ferreira wrote: i could help with translations: french, german, portuguese And I with the Dutch version. I'd also be willing to write, but I'm quite new with Tomcat and since I started with JServ a year and a half ago, Tomcat isn't very transparant for me, I'm afraid...
Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS
Hi Henri! One suggestion: create a mailing list (e.g. tomcat-doc) so that folks may speak about docs. Also, it would show some level of commitment -- at least you have to subscribe. Un saludo, Alex. GOMEZ Henri wrote: Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want to fight. Could we close this thread positively ? We all know that tomcat documentation is incomplete and we need help in that area. Tomcat IS AN OPENSOURCE project with a big user community, Jon Stevens recently reported more than 50-100k downloads / month. Everybody could be involved in the project, and not necessary developpers. I'm sure there is around potentials documentation redactors. So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ? -- For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information is on MSDN? The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects fail miserably. Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just argueing the point).
Re[2]: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS
A few months ago a project to write a Tomcat book was started (check: http://www.sourgeforge.org search for tomcatbook) Haven't heard a lot about it since. Wouldn't it be an good idea to synchronise efforts? I am not involved in this project myself however. Regards, Wilko Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (bcc: Wilko Hische/HADV/NL) Subject: Re: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS [IMAGE] I think tomcatbook must be a sub project of tomcat. Like it or not, we have to overdrive tomcat expert for tomcat development it-self. I think. Tomcat=good software, Tomcat book=good project, Tomcat with easy to used documentation and a lot of project=better software. Don't think like this. 1. Because apache tomcat is from SUN, so all the commiter have to be don't care of this stuff. 2. Free is different with commercial, because we work in part time and hobbyst Remember good project with bad documentation is not a good project. if the software is not as easy as possible, it is not a easy to used software. This is why microsoft is popular. try their way, see Microsoft Press. Easy will overdrive of popularity. I write this because I care of tomcat project. I worked from one of the big consulting firm last year, and I did several converstaion with my eBusiness team, opensource never go to enterprise, even Linux, even several company try to support it like IBM if no good suppoer, and that software is not as easy as possible. Esp for Open Source project, is there a training center for Open Source, yah.. only Red Hat, is it cheap??? for me.. 1 training in Red Hat = 1 year food.. and it is still SUCK training. I think you all have to change the role. Oh yah, I am one of the most SUCK but make me life better. It is called Oracle Application (#2 ERP software in the world). They sell great software because there is very complex and thousand bugs there...and every module 1000 pages, but All the consultants always say it is not detail enough. Still SUCK software. SUCK because we pay the maintenance for patch of the bugs. This is make Open Source popular, less bug, but where is the documentation. Regards, Frans --- Dmitri Colebatch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe there is a project (yes there is, I thought I'd check before sending this) called tomcatbook at sourceforge (http://tomcatbook.sourceforge.net). Perhaps that would be a good place to a) look for advanced answers, and b) suggest questions. cheers dim On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:29, you wrote: .As far as I understand it, there is nothing to stop a user from adding documentation to the tomcat project themselves. I'm amazed at how good the documentation is seeing as how no one was paid to do it. Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want to fight. For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information is on MSDN? The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects fail miserably. Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just argueing the point). __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ (Embedded image moved to file: pic31850.pcx) pic31850.pcx
Re: Re[2]: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS
On Friday 29 June 2001 11:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A few months ago a project to write a Tomcat book was started (check: http://www.sourgeforge.org search for tomcatbook) URL:http://sourceforge.net/projects/tomcatbook/ Haven't heard a lot about it since. Wouldn't it be an good idea to synchronise efforts? Probably. Apparently 22 people are signed up... can't see how far they've got yet, though. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ -- mens vacua in medio vacuo --
Antw: Re: Re[2]: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS(Abwesenheitsnotiz)
Ich bin bis 9.7.2001 auf Urlaub. Bitte wenden Sie sich in dieser Zeit an meine Kollegen im Team EW2 Mit freundlichen Grüßen Petra Hora
Antw: RE: Re[2]: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS(Abwesenheitsnotiz)
Ich bin bis 9.7.2001 auf Urlaub. Bitte wenden Sie sich in dieser Zeit an meine Kollegen im Team EW2 Mit freundlichen Grüßen Petra Hora
Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS
GOMEZ Henri wrote: [...] We all know that tomcat documentation is incomplete and we need help in that area. Tomcat IS AN OPENSOURCE project with a big user community, Jon Stevens recently reported more than 50-100k downloads / month. Everybody could be involved in the project, and not necessary developpers. I'm sure there is around potentials documentation redactors. So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ? [...] Hi :-) if it is possible, I want to work for Tomcat Documentation :-) Bo June 29, 2001
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
Hi Jeff! Noll, Jeff HS wrote: Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want to fight. Yes you can (and should). Do you know why engineers are so bad writers of user documentation? Because they are so embedded in the technical point of view that it takes a big effort to revert to user mind. That's why there are technical writers in the world. Open Source is about scratching your itches (usually at what you do best). I don't want lousy manuals written by overworked engineers -- that's worse than nothing. But some users have contributed excellent guides, although they are not as handy as they should be. That's the reason why it's so disgusting to hear folks complaining about the docs. If you have an itch, you don't ask dad to scratch it any more -- you know exactly the sore point. If you're willing to make the docs better, I'm sure you'll get all the support you need. For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information is on MSDN? On MSDN you don't have access at the internal workings of software, reasons behind design choices or bugs that have been corrected and are recurrent. In the tomcat-dev archives you can find all of that and much more. On MSDN you cannot speak to the actual engineers that did the job and drove the architecture forward. In the tomcat-dev list you can. The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects fail miserably. Most open source projects fail in lack of commitment from the dev/user community. Bad docs are just a consequence of poor user commitment (in that field, in others like bug finding we excel). Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just argueing the point). Un saludo, Alex.
RE: Re[2]: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS
Probably. Apparently 22 people are signed up... can't see how far they've got yet, though. there are a few chapters ready, it is all in docbook format. there is a mailing list on yahoo groups [EMAIL PROTECTED] who is starting another project? Filip ~ Namaste - I bow to the divine in you ~ Filip Hanik Software Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.filip.net -Original Message- From: Simon Brooke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 5:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re[2]: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS On Friday 29 June 2001 11:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A few months ago a project to write a Tomcat book was started (check: http://www.sourgeforge.org search for tomcatbook) URL:http://sourceforge.net/projects/tomcatbook/ Haven't heard a lot about it since. Wouldn't it be an good idea to synchronise efforts? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ -- mens vacua in medio vacuo --
Antw: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS (Abwesenheitsnotiz)
Ich bin bis 9.7.2001 auf Urlaub. Bitte wenden Sie sich in dieser Zeit an meine Kollegen im Team EW2 Mit freundlichen Grüßen Petra Hora
Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS
On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 09:41:52AM +0200, GOMEZ Henri wrote: So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ? I'd be willing to proofread and validate any docs for the j-t-c (i.e. Apache/Tomcat integration). I don't have time to actually write the docs, but I could conceivably help those who don't understand how it works, but do have the time and patience to learn it and write docs for it. Anyone who is interested, just drop me a line. Writing end-user documentation is a good way of finding holes in a design that may not be obvious from the code itself. -- justin
Re: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS
I think tomcatbook must be a sub project of tomcat. Like it or not, we have to overdrive tomcat expert for tomcat development it-self. I think. Tomcat=good software, Tomcat book=good project, Tomcat with easy to used documentation and a lot of project=better software. Don't think like this. 1. Because apache tomcat is from SUN, so all the commiter have to be don't care of this stuff. 2. Free is different with commercial, because we work in part time and hobbyst Remember good project with bad documentation is not a good project. if the software is not as easy as possible, it is not a easy to used software. This is why microsoft is popular. try their way, see Microsoft Press. Easy will overdrive of popularity. I write this because I care of tomcat project. I worked from one of the big consulting firm last year, and I did several converstaion with my eBusiness team, opensource never go to enterprise, even Linux, even several company try to support it like IBM if no good suppoer, and that software is not as easy as possible. Esp for Open Source project, is there a training center for Open Source, yah.. only Red Hat, is it cheap??? for me.. 1 training in Red Hat = 1 year food.. and it is still SUCK training. I think you all have to change the role. Oh yah, I am one of the most SUCK but make me life better. It is called Oracle Application (#2 ERP software in the world). They sell great software because there is very complex and thousand bugs there...and every module 1000 pages, but All the consultants always say it is not detail enough. Still SUCK software. SUCK because we pay the maintenance for patch of the bugs. This is make Open Source popular, less bug, but where is the documentation. Regards, Frans --- Dmitri Colebatch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe there is a project (yes there is, I thought I'd check before sending this) called tomcatbook at sourceforge (http://tomcatbook.sourceforge.net). Perhaps that would be a good place to a) look for advanced answers, and b) suggest questions. cheers dim On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:29, you wrote: .As far as I understand it, there is nothing to stop a user from adding documentation to the tomcat project themselves. I'm amazed at how good the documentation is seeing as how no one was paid to do it. Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want to fight. For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information is on MSDN? The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects fail miserably. Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just argueing the point). __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
RE: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS
I'd be willing to proofread and validate any docs for the j-t-c (i.e. Apache/Tomcat integration). I don't have time to actually write the docs, but I could conceivably help those who don't understand how it works, but do have the time and patience to learn it and write docs for it. Be our guest in j-t-c :) WebServer/Tomcat integration (Apache/TC, IIS/TC, mod_jk, webapp...) count at least 30% of questions on tomcat-user list :)
[Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS
Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want to fight. Could we close this thread positively ? We all know that tomcat documentation is incomplete and we need help in that area. Tomcat IS AN OPENSOURCE project with a big user community, Jon Stevens recently reported more than 50-100k downloads / month. Everybody could be involved in the project, and not necessary developpers. I'm sure there is around potentials documentation redactors. So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ? -- For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information is on MSDN? The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects fail miserably. Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just argueing the point).
RE: TOMCAT SUCKS
I think openly criticising a product that many people have worked hard to create and provide for your FREE use shows a remarkable lack of gratitude, especially when you follow your blinkered criticism with a request for help from the same people you just insulted. If you want an enterprise level system, pay for it. Tomcat holds it's own against any product on the market in it's space. - James Radvan Websphere Analyst/Architect London, UK [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7990 624899 -Original Message- From: Dmitri Colebatch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 June 2001 02:53 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Nick Stoianov Subject: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:10, Nick Stoianov wrote: 5th - I haven't met anybody in this mailing list who has a complex installation of Tomcat with a lot of virtual hosts , different ports and load balancers. So - who will help me in situation like this? No books , no support, no help from the mailing list. Click here to visit the Argos home page http://www.argos.co.uk The information contained in this message or any of its attachments may be privileged and confidential, and is intended exclusively for the addressee. The views expressed may not be official policy, but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution, dissemination or use of this communication is not authorised. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender by using the reply facility in your e-mail software. All messages sent and received by Argos Ltd are monitored for virus, high risk file extensions, and inappropriate content. As a result users should be aware that mail may be accessed.
AW: TOMCAT SUCKS // what lb problem? plz clarify
3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the productivity of the web server with at least 1000% ?? i'm running a fairly complex website (very drastic flash frontend/java backend) and it works fine. big server though, but it really runs quite fine. I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex configurations it sucks. well i don't do virtual hosting but it's still a fairly complex site, and i think TC goes way beyond 'testing purpose only'. in fact all problems i run in unto now were our own bugs :) can you tell us what your load balancing problems were exactly? i had it a short while behind a LB and it worked fine. currently it's back to one machine, but i'll have it LB'ed again when the load will dramatically rise in 2 weeks or so. therefore i'd be very much interested in knowing what kind of problems you were/are experiencing. thanks, Nico
RE: So what *IS* available? Formerly Tomcat SUCKS
ATG Dynamo is very good (although very expensive) -Original Message- From: James Radvan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 June 2001 11:27 To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: So what *IS* available? Formerly Tomcat SUCKS IBM Websphere is certainly a product to consider for an Enterprise implementation. It is a quite comprehensive suite of products with every function you could want including Application Server, Webserver (incidentally based on Apache), LDAP, load balancing, HACMP, transcoding, commerce suite, portal server (based on jetspeed), database, Java/JSP IDE's etc. It is however complex to set up and maintain, and expensive. But you get what you pay for, right? Stability, speed and scalability are all excellent (albeit better on AIX than Win32). It's not a product suite for first-timers though! Frankly I do all my prototyping on Tomcat/Win32 and go to production on Websphere/AIX. Whenever I have a problem with the 'wrapped' IBM products (ie those based on open-source code) I go back to my Apache/Tomcat/Jetspeed reference install to figure out the problem, then apply the fix to Websphere. It's an approach that has led to satisfied clients for years. All thanks to this little 'sucky' product we know and love. Thank you Tomcat! Cheers, - James Radvan Websphere Analyst/Architect London, UK [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7990 624899 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 27 June 2001 13:46 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: So what *IS* available? Formerly Tomcat SUCKS Click here to visit the Argos home page http://www.argos.co.uk The information contained in this message or any of its attachments may be privileged and confidential, and is intended exclusively for the addressee. The views expressed may not be official policy, but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution, dissemination or use of this communication is not authorised. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender by using the reply facility in your e-mail software. All messages sent and received by Argos Ltd are monitored for virus, high risk file extensions, and inappropriate content. As a result users should be aware that mail may be accessed.
Re: So what *IS* available? Formerly Tomcat SUCKS
I've just switched over to Resin which does seem to be more stable than Tomcat. Andy C http://www.r2-dvd.org - Original Message - From: Paul Hunnisett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:35 AM Subject: RE: So what *IS* available? Formerly Tomcat SUCKS ATG Dynamo is very good (although very expensive)
RE: So what *IS* available? Formerly Tomcat SUCKS
We used Resin for months in production without big problems. It's stable and robust. Take a look at www.caucho.com. Eric -Original Message- From: Andy C [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: jeudi 28 juin 2001 11:45 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: So what *IS* available? Formerly Tomcat SUCKS I've just switched over to Resin which does seem to be more stable than Tomcat. Andy C http://www.r2-dvd.org - Original Message - From: Paul Hunnisett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:35 AM Subject: RE: So what *IS* available? Formerly Tomcat SUCKS ATG Dynamo is very good (although very expensive)
RE: TOMCAT SUCKS
.As far as I understand it, there is nothing to stop a user from adding documentation to the tomcat project themselves. I'm amazed at how good the documentation is seeing as how no one was paid to do it. Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want to fight. For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information is on MSDN? The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects fail miserably. Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just argueing the point).
TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS
I believe there is a project (yes there is, I thought I'd check before sending this) called tomcatbook at sourceforge (http://tomcatbook.sourceforge.net). Perhaps that would be a good place to a) look for advanced answers, and b) suggest questions. cheers dim On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:29, you wrote: .As far as I understand it, there is nothing to stop a user from adding documentation to the tomcat project themselves. I'm amazed at how good the documentation is seeing as how no one was paid to do it. Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want to fight. For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information is on MSDN? The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects fail miserably. Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just argueing the point).
Re: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS
At 04:18 PM 6/28/2001, you wrote: I believe there is a project (yes there is, I thought I'd check before sending this) called tomcatbook at sourceforge (http://tomcatbook.sourceforge.net). Perhaps that would be a good place to a) look for advanced answers, and b) suggest questions. Its not a good place to look yet. Neither the browse online or download links go anywhere. I guess its really not ready yet.
TOMCAT SUCKS
Hi guys, I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks: 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have load balancers, virtual hosts, etc. 2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have a load balancer in front of the web server. 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the productivity of the web server with at least 1000% 4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is money. 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I guess the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if nobody has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time again. I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex configurations it sucks. If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc. Nick
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
At 01:53 PM 6/27/2001, Nick wrote: Hi guys, I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks: 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have load balancers, virtual hosts, etc. The open source community doesn't have the resources necessary to dedicate a team to maintaining documentation. 2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have a load balancer in front of the web server. In my opinion you shouldn't be using tomcat as your web server. 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the productivity of the web server with at least 1000% Not even close to true. You must have one f'd up system. 4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is money. Again, use Apache with tomcat. 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I guess the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if nobody has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time again. See point 1. I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex configurations it sucks. If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc. Ha ha ha ha... how can you say JRun is a good production server with a strait face? If they spent more time working on the code than using it by taking all the flat file editing you need to do to configure it (like any product of this type) and putting it all into a ridiculous gui that doesn't make that configuring any easier they might shock me by having a real product on their hands. And don't get me started on the rest of those.
RE: TOMCAT SUCKS
Well, funnily enough I've just done some stress testing with our web app against Apache Tomcat and Apache Resin. With 100 concurrent connections Resin locked up the server (a Solaris 8 Ultra 10) because the mod_caucho uses precess forking which ran out of space. mod_jk, on the other hand, with the thread pool set to 500, handled the load no problem. So I'm interested in your comments. Please supply any figures you have - I (and a very large credit card issuer) would be grateful. Jon -Original Message- From: Nick Stoianov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 09:54 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: TOMCAT SUCKS Hi guys, I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks: 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have load balancers, virtual hosts, etc. 2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have a load balancer in front of the web server. 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the productivity of the web server with at least 1000% 4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is money. 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I guess the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if nobody has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time again. I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex configurations it sucks. If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc. Nick
RE: TOMCAT SUCKS
5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I guess the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if nobody has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time again. Hello!!! Ever heard of the archives?!?! Just about any question you could imagine are out there. Sometimes you have to work for your money not just get it handed to you on a silver platter. I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex configurations it sucks. If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc. Weblogic... slower than molasses unless configured just right and REALLY overkill (especially financially) unless you have a complex ORB model. Resin.. Haven't worked with it can't say much. JRun... Costs money and have to say it quite suspicious that so many developers are moving from it to tomcat?!?! --- Michael Wentzel Software Developer Software As We Think - http://www.aswethink.com
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
Hi guys, I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks: 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have load balancers, virtual hosts, etc. As far as I understand it, there is nothing to stop a user from adding documentation to the tomcat project themselves. I'm amazed at how good the documentation is seeing as how no one was paid to do it. I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex configurations it sucks. If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc. I've found it okay for my purposes. Then again, I've never run into any major problems with tomcat and I've never tried to set it up for load balancing. It's too bad your experience has been negative. Perhaps you could consider adding some of the ease-of-use ideas from JRun et al to the tomcat project? -Mike
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
If there is a lack of documentation, that is par for the course with any project that doesn't have paid technical writers. I don't recall seeing a big sign on the front of jakarta.apache.org saying 'Get your complete and comprehensive documentation here'. If you wanted to, you could probably hire someone from this list to write up a good configuration guide for tomcat, for less than the price of a WebLogic license. Maybe you could think about that. You would then have both solved your problem, contributed in a meaningful way to the community and helped a fellow tomcat user financially, instead of finding, 6 months down the track, that tomcat outperforms, is more stable and a lot cheaper than WebLogic, yet still has no good docs. Your comment about mod_jk is just wrong. Exactly how does it slow down your web server by 1000%? I imagine if you are using servlets heavily, and this results in max CPU usage or something, then apache will struggle to serve requests, but this situation would be no different if you ran tomcat standalone, or if you switched to another servlet engine. If your virtual hosts have different servlet mappings? well, worst case scenario you could write a perl or shell script, or better still a GUI or servlet-based Java app that automated these configuration chores. You know what you could then do? You could contribute it back to the project so that other people can use it to save time. And if you have a problem no-one has experienced before, and posting to the mailing list doesn't elicit a reply? I suppose these commercial servlet engines are all 100% bugless, trouble free, and have perfect tchnical support. Of course nobody has problems with these servlet engines, which is why the Resin, JRun and WebLogic mailing lists are completely empty, and you can't find a single link on google when you type 'resin problem' or 'weblogic problem' into it. If Tomcat does not fit your needs, or you are unable to configure it correctly, by all means, ask for help. But don't claim it SUCKs just because you can't solve your own problems, or phrase your questions in such an obnoxious manner that help is unlikely to be willingly provided. -Pete Hi guys, I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks: 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have load balancers, virtual hosts, etc.2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have a load balancer in front of the web server. 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the productivity of the web server with at least 1000% 4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is money. 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I guess the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if nobody has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time again. I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex configurations it sucks. If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc. Nick
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
Nick, On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:53, Nick Stoianov wrote: 2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have a load balancer in front of the web server. I find the virtual hosts work fine with the exception of port based virtuals (same ip/name different port). Where exactly are you having trouble? And are you using 3.2.2 or 4? I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex configurations it sucks. Again, what sort of configuration do you need? The best thing about open source is that if you need something that isn't there, you're free to add it. let me know what your problem is with virtuals and we'll see if we can work it out. cheers dim
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
Hey I agree with what pete said, for a free product Tomcat is better than most of the servlet containers. AS for the documentation goes, yes agree its a bit scanty but look at the help you get from fellow developers like us when you post a distress request, do u see such kind of support anywere else? true you dont get online telephone support or something like that , but I think the mailing list is one of the very largely subscribed to. As pete suggested may be you can try to figure out your problem and then post your solution so that others benefit, that is the spirit of open source. Have a good day , if you dont like tomcat u r free to try JRUN or weblogic or websphere or Iplanet.. resin Goodluck Kris --- pete [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If there is a lack of documentation, that is par for the course with any project that doesn't have paid technical writers. I don't recall seeing a big sign on the front of jakarta.apache.org saying 'Get your complete and comprehensive documentation here'. If you wanted to, you could probably hire someone from this list to write up a good configuration guide for tomcat, for less than the price of a WebLogic license. Maybe you could think about that. You would then have both solved your problem, contributed in a meaningful way to the community and helped a fellow tomcat user financially, instead of finding, 6 months down the track, that tomcat outperforms, is more stable and a lot cheaper than WebLogic, yet still has no good docs. Your comment about mod_jk is just wrong. Exactly how does it slow down your web server by 1000%? I imagine if you are using servlets heavily, and this results in max CPU usage or something, then apache will struggle to serve requests, but this situation would be no different if you ran tomcat standalone, or if you switched to another servlet engine. If your virtual hosts have different servlet mappings? well, worst case scenario you could write a perl or shell script, or better still a GUI or servlet-based Java app that automated these configuration chores. You know what you could then do? You could contribute it back to the project so that other people can use it to save time. And if you have a problem no-one has experienced before, and posting to the mailing list doesn't elicit a reply? I suppose these commercial servlet engines are all 100% bugless, trouble free, and have perfect tchnical support. Of course nobody has problems with these servlet engines, which is why the Resin, JRun and WebLogic mailing lists are completely empty, and you can't find a single link on google when you type 'resin problem' or 'weblogic problem' into it. If Tomcat does not fit your needs, or you are unable to configure it correctly, by all means, ask for help. But don't claim it SUCKs just because you can't solve your own problems, or phrase your questions in such an obnoxious manner that help is unlikely to be willingly provided. -Pete Hi guys, I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks: 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have load balancers, virtual hosts, etc.2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have a load balancer in front of the web server. 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the productivity of the web server with at least 1000% 4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is money. 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I guess the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if nobody has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time again. I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex configurations it sucks. If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc. Nick __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
Nick, I just saw on the site http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2001/03/15/tomcat.html that James Goodwill has published a book titled Using Tomcat. Although, I have not purchased the book, I would image that it may become another (albeit not free) source for Tomcat product documentation. FYI, Free means free (i.e., you get what you pay for) and at Jcafeinc.com it works wonderfully for us and the price is right. kevin - Original Message - From: Nick Stoianov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 3:53 PM Subject: TOMCAT SUCKS Hi guys, I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks: 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have load balancers, virtual hosts, etc. 2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have a load balancer in front of the web server. 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the productivity of the web server with at least 1000% 4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is money. 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I guess the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if nobody has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time again. I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex configurations it sucks. If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc. Nick
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
To all of you tomcat fans, Attacking me with these immature e-mails shows the following things: 1. not accepting other people's opinions and experiences 2. blindly repeating the same things over and over again. 1st of all - how many of you have installed Tomcat with about 30 virtual servers with integrated Apache behind a load balancer? When you make this work - then you can tell me how good Tomcat is. I tried it - it works - but it's not stable and mod_jk is slow when you have this multihost environment. 2nd of all - you are right, there is no sign Get your complete and comprehensive documentation here. But this doesn't solve the problem with the lack of documentation. Linux is open source too - look how many books are there on Linux. 3rd - it's not my job to hire somebody to write a book about Tomcat. I'm just stating that I will not use it until somebody writes something. Unfortunately I don't have the time to write a book about Tomcat. 4th - reading your solution about writing a shell or Perl script for the servlets mapping problem shows that you have no idea about SHELL scripting nor PERL programming (and I guess Tomcat either) 5th - I haven't met anybody in this mailing list who has a complex installation of Tomcat with a lot of virtual hosts , different ports and load balancers. So - who will help me in situation like this? No books , no support, no help from the mailing list. Thanks Nick On Wednesday 27 June 2001 04:01 pm, pete wrote: If there is a lack of documentation, that is par for the course with any project that doesn't have paid technical writers. I don't recall seeing a big sign on the front of jakarta.apache.org saying 'Get your complete and comprehensive documentation here'. If you wanted to, you could probably hire someone from this list to write up a good configuration guide for tomcat, for less than the price of a WebLogic license. Maybe you could think about that. You would then have both solved your problem, contributed in a meaningful way to the community and helped a fellow tomcat user financially, instead of finding, 6 months down the track, that tomcat outperforms, is more stable and a lot cheaper than WebLogic, yet still has no good docs. Your comment about mod_jk is just wrong. Exactly how does it slow down your web server by 1000%? I imagine if you are using servlets heavily, and this results in max CPU usage or something, then apache will struggle to serve requests, but this situation would be no different if you ran tomcat standalone, or if you switched to another servlet engine. If your virtual hosts have different servlet mappings? well, worst case scenario you could write a perl or shell script, or better still a GUI or servlet-based Java app that automated these configuration chores. You know what you could then do? You could contribute it back to the project so that other people can use it to save time. And if you have a problem no-one has experienced before, and posting to the mailing list doesn't elicit a reply? I suppose these commercial servlet engines are all 100% bugless, trouble free, and have perfect tchnical support. Of course nobody has problems with these servlet engines, which is why the Resin, JRun and WebLogic mailing lists are completely empty, and you can't find a single link on google when you type 'resin problem' or 'weblogic problem' into it. If Tomcat does not fit your needs, or you are unable to configure it correctly, by all means, ask for help. But don't claim it SUCKs just because you can't solve your own problems, or phrase your questions in such an obnoxious manner that help is unlikely to be willingly provided. -Pete Hi guys, I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks: 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have load balancers, virtual hosts, etc.2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have a load balancer in front of the web server. 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the productivity of the web server with at least 1000% 4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is money. 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I guess the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if nobody has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time again. I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex configurations it sucks. If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Nick Stoianov wrote: To all of you tomcat fans, Attacking me with these immature e-mails shows the following things: 1. not accepting other people's opinions and experiences 2. blindly repeating the same things over and over again. [ ... ] Frankly, you're the one that's being immature here -- as evidenced so well by the subject of your post. If you've got your mind made up and won't listen to legitimate suggestions from others, what's the point of coming in here and posting like you did. You're acting out, something a three year old does. Now, this doesn't mean you don't have some legitimate gripes. It may very well be that for your situation, Tomcat isn't suitable. That doesn't mean it sucks, or that it's not suitable for others. Your situation just may be complex enough, or idiosyncratic enough, that it will be problematic for you to use Tomcat. And perhaps for a number of reasons, it's just not possible for you to spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to get Tomcat to do what you want, you want it to work the way you want out of the box, or have someone else figure it out for you. So a heavy duty commercial product with support may be a better choice for you. But it's going to cost you (whereas Tomcat is free). But that's a choice you're making as to how best to allocate your resources (and it may perfectly well be a legitimate choice). Again, it doesn't mean Tomcat sucks, it's just not what you need (and I've probably heard complaints about most of the other products out there, including commercial ones). Milt Epstein Research Programmer Software/Systems Development Group Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
Hey Milt, I guess you are right. Thanks, Nick On Wednesday 27 June 2001 05:23 pm, Milt Epstein wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Nick Stoianov wrote: To all of you tomcat fans, Attacking me with these immature e-mails shows the following things: 1. not accepting other people's opinions and experiences 2. blindly repeating the same things over and over again. [ ... ] Frankly, you're the one that's being immature here -- as evidenced so well by the subject of your post. If you've got your mind made up and won't listen to legitimate suggestions from others, what's the point of coming in here and posting like you did. You're acting out, something a three year old does. Now, this doesn't mean you don't have some legitimate gripes. It may very well be that for your situation, Tomcat isn't suitable. That doesn't mean it sucks, or that it's not suitable for others. Your situation just may be complex enough, or idiosyncratic enough, that it will be problematic for you to use Tomcat. And perhaps for a number of reasons, it's just not possible for you to spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to get Tomcat to do what you want, you want it to work the way you want out of the box, or have someone else figure it out for you. So a heavy duty commercial product with support may be a better choice for you. But it's going to cost you (whereas Tomcat is free). But that's a choice you're making as to how best to allocate your resources (and it may perfectly well be a legitimate choice). Again, it doesn't mean Tomcat sucks, it's just not what you need (and I've probably heard complaints about most of the other products out there, including commercial ones). Milt Epstein Research Programmer Software/Systems Development Group Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
So what *IS* available? Formerly Tomcat SUCKS
Hello Everyone, I was just going through the posts and have been following this thread. Despite Tomcat not meeting Nick's needs and the frustration he must have had, he does bring up a good question. What is out there that can handle Nick's problems? I am still new to the Tomcat scene so please be patient with me. I've seen commercial solutions mentioned such as Resin, JRun and a few others. What about IBM WebSphere? Is that not a similar product? How do the commercial products compare to Tomcat as far as feature set, stability, scalability and speed? The thread just got me thinking is all. Thanks in advance John Brosan On 27 Jun 2001 17:28:19 -0700, Nick Stoianov wrote: Hey Milt, I guess you are right. Thanks, Nick On Wednesday 27 June 2001 05:23 pm, Milt Epstein wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Nick Stoianov wrote: To all of you tomcat fans, Attacking me with these immature e-mails shows the following things: 1. not accepting other people's opinions and experiences 2. blindly repeating the same things over and over again. [ ... ] Frankly, you're the one that's being immature here -- as evidenced so well by the subject of your post. If you've got your mind made up and won't listen to legitimate suggestions from others, what's the point of coming in here and posting like you did. You're acting out, something a three year old does. Now, this doesn't mean you don't have some legitimate gripes. It may very well be that for your situation, Tomcat isn't suitable. That doesn't mean it sucks, or that it's not suitable for others. Your situation just may be complex enough, or idiosyncratic enough, that it will be problematic for you to use Tomcat. And perhaps for a number of reasons, it's just not possible for you to spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to get Tomcat to do what you want, you want it to work the way you want out of the box, or have someone else figure it out for you. So a heavy duty commercial product with support may be a better choice for you. But it's going to cost you (whereas Tomcat is free). But that's a choice you're making as to how best to allocate your resources (and it may perfectly well be a legitimate choice). Again, it doesn't mean Tomcat sucks, it's just not what you need (and I've probably heard complaints about most of the other products out there, including commercial ones). Milt Epstein Research Programmer Software/Systems Development Group Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: So what *IS* available? Formerly Tomcat SUCKS
For a list of servlet containers see: http://java.sun.com/products/servlet/industry.html Lots to choose from ! Eoin. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 5:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: So what *IS* available? Formerly Tomcat SUCKS Hello Everyone, I was just going through the posts and have been following this thread. Despite Tomcat not meeting Nick's needs and the frustration he must have had, he does bring up a good question. What is out there that can handle Nick's problems? I am still new to the Tomcat scene so please be patient with me. I've seen commercial solutions mentioned such as Resin, JRun and a few others. What about IBM WebSphere? Is that not a similar product? How do the commercial products compare to Tomcat as far as feature set, stability, scalability and speed? The thread just got me thinking is all. Thanks in advance John Brosan On 27 Jun 2001 17:28:19 -0700, Nick Stoianov wrote: Hey Milt, I guess you are right. Thanks, Nick On Wednesday 27 June 2001 05:23 pm, Milt Epstein wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Nick Stoianov wrote: To all of you tomcat fans, Attacking me with these immature e-mails shows the following things: 1. not accepting other people's opinions and experiences 2. blindly repeating the same things over and over again. [ ... ] Frankly, you're the one that's being immature here -- as evidenced so well by the subject of your post. If you've got your mind made up and won't listen to legitimate suggestions from others, what's the point of coming in here and posting like you did. You're acting out, something a three year old does. Now, this doesn't mean you don't have some legitimate gripes. It may very well be that for your situation, Tomcat isn't suitable. That doesn't mean it sucks, or that it's not suitable for others. Your situation just may be complex enough, or idiosyncratic enough, that it will be problematic for you to use Tomcat. And perhaps for a number of reasons, it's just not possible for you to spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to get Tomcat to do what you want, you want it to work the way you want out of the box, or have someone else figure it out for you. So a heavy duty commercial product with support may be a better choice for you. But it's going to cost you (whereas Tomcat is free). But that's a choice you're making as to how best to allocate your resources (and it may perfectly well be a legitimate choice). Again, it doesn't mean Tomcat sucks, it's just not what you need (and I've probably heard complaints about most of the other products out there, including commercial ones). Milt Epstein Research Programmer Software/Systems Development Group Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: TOMCAT SUCKS
Well, you can always ask for your money back. But I note that per the Tomcat intro, ... Tomcat is the official Reference Implementation ... A reference implementation has never been intended as a production version, but rather a version from which a lot of learning can be had - both for developers and users. See some W3C discussion on this topic. Yep, there's a lot of natural enthusiasm here. But that doesn't change the nature of the beast, and it sounds like you've made a bad choice for your environment. A shame, really, but hardly the fault of the Tomcat crew, IMO. Arnold Shore Annapolis, MD USA -Original Message- From: Nick Stoianov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 4:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: TOMCAT SUCKS Hi guys, I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks: 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have load balancers, virtual hosts, etc. 2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have a load balancer in front of the web server. 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the productivity of the web server with at least 1000% 4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is money. 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I guess the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if nobody has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time again. I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex configurations it sucks. If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc. Nick
RE: TOMCAT SUCKS
Nick, Given the provocative title of the post, I found the community's response remarkably restrained. Having worked with Tomcat for the past year and a half in a production environment (integrated with APACHE in a multihosted environment, now with mod_jk) I have little to complain about. Doubtless some effort is required to set up such an environment and those faced with it aren't likely to have a lot of time to give back. But I think its pretty safe to say no one is going to make time for one so pretentious and blantantly critical. Having used JRun, Weblogic, I can tell you with assurance that money spent here won't provide you with the high-flown expectations you apparently held for Tomcat. The responses people gave weren't attacks, they're facts ... like the software, they're free, you can take them or leave them. My experience has been that a polite well placed question goes pretty far around here. Cheers, Todd V. -Original Message- From: Nick Stoianov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 6:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; pete Subject: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS To all of you tomcat fans, Attacking me with these immature e-mails shows the following things: 1. not accepting other people's opinions and experiences 2. blindly repeating the same things over and over again. 1st of all - how many of you have installed Tomcat with about 30 virtual servers with integrated Apache behind a load balancer? When you make this work - then you can tell me how good Tomcat is. I tried it - it works - but it's not stable and mod_jk is slow when you have this multihost environment. 2nd of all - you are right, there is no sign Get your complete and comprehensive documentation here. But this doesn't solve the problem with the lack of documentation. Linux is open source too - look how many books are there on Linux. 3rd - it's not my job to hire somebody to write a book about Tomcat. I'm just stating that I will not use it until somebody writes something. Unfortunately I don't have the time to write a book about Tomcat. 4th - reading your solution about writing a shell or Perl script for the servlets mapping problem shows that you have no idea about SHELL scripting nor PERL programming (and I guess Tomcat either) 5th - I haven't met anybody in this mailing list who has a complex installation of Tomcat with a lot of virtual hosts , different ports and load balancers. So - who will help me in situation like this? No books , no support, no help from the mailing list. Thanks Nick On Wednesday 27 June 2001 04:01 pm, pete wrote: If there is a lack of documentation, that is par for the course with any project that doesn't have paid technical writers. I don't recall seeing a big sign on the front of jakarta.apache.org saying 'Get your complete and comprehensive documentation here'. If you wanted to, you could probably hire someone from this list to write up a good configuration guide for tomcat, for less than the price of a WebLogic license. Maybe you could think about that. You would then have both solved your problem, contributed in a meaningful way to the community and helped a fellow tomcat user financially, instead of finding, 6 months down the track, that tomcat outperforms, is more stable and a lot cheaper than WebLogic, yet still has no good docs. Your comment about mod_jk is just wrong. Exactly how does it slow down your web server by 1000%? I imagine if you are using servlets heavily, and this results in max CPU usage or something, then apache will struggle to serve requests, but this situation would be no different if you ran tomcat standalone, or if you switched to another servlet engine. If your virtual hosts have different servlet mappings? well, worst case scenario you could write a perl or shell script, or better still a GUI or servlet-based Java app that automated these configuration chores. You know what you could then do? You could contribute it back to the project so that other people can use it to save time. And if you have a problem no-one has experienced before, and posting to the mailing list doesn't elicit a reply? I suppose these commercial servlet engines are all 100% bugless, trouble free, and have perfect tchnical support. Of course nobody has problems with these servlet engines, which is why the Resin, JRun and WebLogic mailing lists are completely empty, and you can't find a single link on google when you type 'resin problem' or 'weblogic problem' into it. If Tomcat does not fit your needs, or you are unable to configure it correctly, by all means, ask for help. But don't claim it SUCKs just because you can't solve your own problems, or phrase your questions in such an obnoxious manner that help is unlikely to be willingly provided. -Pete Hi guys, I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks: 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad
RE: TOMCAT SUCKS
On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Arnold Shore wrote: Well, you can always ask for your money back. But I note that per the Tomcat intro, ... Tomcat is the official Reference Implementation ... A reference implementation has never been intended as a production version, but rather a version from which a lot of learning can be had - both for developers and users. See some W3C discussion on this topic. [ ... ] FWIW, even though Tomcat is the reference implementation of the servlet spec, I think the intention is to have it be production quality. That kinds of makes sense, it being part of Apache. Milt Epstein Research Programmer Software/Systems Development Group Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:10, Nick Stoianov wrote: 5th - I haven't met anybody in this mailing list who has a complex installation of Tomcat with a lot of virtual hosts , different ports and load balancers. So - who will help me in situation like this? No books , no support, no help from the mailing list. I replied to your email asking for more information on what your requirements are. As I said there, I've haven't been able to get virtuals to work when relying on a port, but am prepared to look at implementing that if other people need it too (I did a simple name-based workaround). What are your specific requirements that aren't being fulfilled, performance aside? cheesr dim
