RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
He is 'saved when he stops serving himself and begins the quest for expressed community and all the benefits that are associated with community. Smithson Smithson, what if his chosen community is Al Qaeda? Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Just
for the record, the following are some of those things I brought into
this forum and where I am now. I would be interested in a similar
contruct from any and all.
Those words above were the first words of what I thought would be a
list issues. Instead, writing this line after writing the following
(below) , the Lord has led me to a statement of faith of sorts and it
is ..
. Water baptism: for me, the last of the great Mohicans as
regards my works salvationist upbring. I believed that works
AND faith carried equal weight. That changed shortly before I came to
this list. And at the time I came onto this list, I believed
that God had two considerations in His thinking on salvation: 1) that
the condition of the heart carried more weight in the soteriological
sense that any other consideration --- that salvation occured apart
from obedience. A prayerful consideration of Ps 51 and Romans
2:8-29 showed me the basis for God's judgment in our lives and
confirmed the above thinking; 2) that when this salvation is
expressed in Jesus Christ -- we have confidence and definition in
regard to our salvation. We know we are saved. The entire
letter of I john is written with this purpose in mind -- that we
might have confidence in our salvation. As luck would have it, where
I was when I came to this forum was accidently correct, as far as it
went.
(after coming to this list -- this is what happened next)
Sadly, I did not understand why this was so -- although I thought I
did -- an accident. Paul's argument (Gal 3) that the Abrahmic
promise was extended to Jesus Christ (as the seed, not of many but as
of one v 16) opened the door to understanding that it is the faith
of Christ that has secured (aorist, if you will) our salvation. When
I combine this biblical fact with the idea that community is the very
image of God, that we were created in this image, that not only
attachment to others ("it is not good for man to be alone") but
a profound and expressed caring for those "others" is the central
issue in any definition of this Image, the conclusion if forced upon
me in this wise: that Christ, in the flesh, was no less
involved in this Image (of community) than before or after the
incarnation event; that He (in the flesh) gives definition of
"God" (and I changed verb tenses, here, intentionally for His was
an action begun during the incarnation and extending to this very
moment or any moment we call "now.") and my imitation of Him (to
any degree) in deed and perhaps word has the benefit of a salvation
already procured for me in the Christ of the Cross. I loose my
salvation when I move to serve myself and in so doing, deny the very
Image I am. I am destroyed in serving self.
My faith in Christ does not save me -- it gives me
confidence and opens the door to an understanding of the soteriological
process I am involved in as a human being -- knowingly or
not. When the biblical message speaks of "saved," "being saved" and
a future "salvation," it is demonstrating the process we are
all involved in. The fact that "judgment day" is for all of mankind
proves, to me, that this process is for us all and that we are all
involved in it, like it or not --- whether they have heard of Christ
or not - no matter what.
Water baptism? How did that figure in? Well, I used to believe
that you had to be baptised to be saved. Now, and here is the change
for me, I believe that anything I do, including water baptism however
you define it (immersion or sprinkling, I do not care), and
especially those things done in the name of the Lord, are acts that
reveal God in Christ through me to others. I can preach it or I can
simply perform. All is to the revealed glory and certainty of the
Great God Almighty. So baptism saved me years ago, at age 12, because
it was an _expression_ of the very faith of Christ Jesus Himself. He
was even baptised !!! And now I am doing it that is
salvation.
His life is mirrored in mine when I do
what He did
His life is confirmed in mine when I do
what He wills.
-- me --
How could this not be salvation?
And the "baptism" that really matters to me, is the one spoken of in
Gal 3:26,27 -- a full immersion into Christ Himself.
"Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling for it is God at
work in you both to will and to perform His good pleasure" (Phil
2:12,13). Why did Paul add "fear and trembling". The message is the
same without this parenthetical. It is exactly the same, to me. So
why? Because, if the performance of righteousness is act of community
and its individual memership -- the pronouncement that it is God
performing in us should bring to our mind a startled awareness that is
manifest in fear and trembling. In this passage , Paul has suddenly
put his readership in tune with that which is the Subtle Force behind
their works of goodness. Suddenly -- there it is!! Community
with God Himself. He has
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
John wrote There is a very
real sense, then, that salvation is ours to loose.
I agree with you, John. However, it is only
before we have once placed our faith in Jesus Christthat we may
loseour salvation -- andso,this may be a fairly significant
HOWEVER that we will need to work out. I do not believe the one who has heard
the good news of Jesus Christ and believed that message will ever lose
his or her salvation, because upon believing in Jesus Christ, believers receive
the gift of the Holy Spirit, who in the Power of God secures their salvation
forever; the Gift guarantees their inheritance in Christ. Check out the
wording here and see if you see what I amsaying:In [Christ] you also
trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your
salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit
of promise,who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of
the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory" (Eph
1.13-14).
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 10:11
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal
Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Just for the record, the
following are some of those things I brought into this forum and where I am
now. I would be interested in a similar contruct from any and
all.
Those words above were the first words of what I thought would be a list
issues. Instead, writing this line after writing the following (below)
, the Lord has led me to a statement of faith of sorts and it is
.. . Water
baptism: for me, the last of the great Mohicans as regards my
works salvationist upbring. I believed that works AND
faith carried equal weight. That changed shortly before I came to this
list. And at the time I came onto this list, I
believed that God had two considerations in His thinking on salvation:
1) that the condition of the heart carried more weight in the soteriological
sense that any other consideration --- that salvation occured
apart from obedience. A prayerful consideration of Ps
51 and Romans 2:8-29 showed me the basis for God's judgment
in our lives and confirmed the above thinking; 2) that
when this salvation is expressed in Jesus Christ -- we have
confidence and definition in regard to our salvation. We know
we are saved. The entire letter of I john is written with this
purpose in mind -- that we might have confidence in our
salvation. As luck would have it, where I was when I came to
this forum was accidently correct, as far as it went. (after
coming to this list -- this is what happened next)Sadly, I
did not understand why this was so -- although I thought I
did -- an accident. Paul's argument (Gal
3) that the Abrahmic promise was extended to Jesus Christ (as the seed, not of
many but as of one v 16) opened the door to understanding
that it is the faith of Christ that has secured (aorist, if you will)
our salvation. When I combine this biblical fact with the idea
that community is the very image of God, that we were created in this
image, that not only attachment to others ("it is not good for man
to be alone") but a profound and expressed caring for those
"others" is the central issue in any definition of this Image, the
conclusion if forced upon me in this wise: that Christ, in the
flesh, was no less involved in this Image (of community) than
before or after the incarnation event; that He (in the flesh)
gives definition of "God" (and I changed verb tenses, here,
intentionally for His was an action begun during the incarnation and extending
to this very moment or any moment we call "now.") and my imitation of
Him (to any degree) in deed and perhaps word has the benefit of a
salvation already procured for me in the Christ of the Cross. I loose my
salvation when I move to serve myself and in so doing, deny the very Image
I am. I am destroyed in serving self.
My faith in Christ does not save me -- it gives
me confidence and opens the door to an understanding of the soteriological
process I am involved in as a human being -- knowingly or
not. When the biblical message speaks of "saved," "being
saved" and a future "salvation," it is demonstrating the
process we are all involved in. The fact that "judgment
day" is for all of mankind proves, to me, that this process is for us all and
that we are all involved in it, like it or not --- whether
they have heard of Christ or not - no matter
what. Water baptism? How did that figure
in? Well, I used to believe that you had to be
baptised to be saved. Now, and here is the change for me, I
believe that anything I do, including water baptism however you define it
(immersion or sprinkling, I do not care), and especially those things
done in the name of
RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:14 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me John wrote There is a very real sense, then, that salvation is ours to loose. I agree with you, John. However, it is only before we have once placed our faith in Jesus Christthat we may loseour salvation -- andso,this may be a fairly significant HOWEVER that we will need to work out. I do not believe the one who has heard the good news of Jesus Christ and believed that message will ever lose his or her salvation, because upon believing in Jesus Christ, believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, who in the Power of God secures their salvation forever; the Gift guarantees their inheritance in Christ. Check out the wording here and see if you see what I amsaying:In [Christ] you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory (Eph 1.13-14). Bill Bill, Im tempted to show you the scriptures that disprove the once saved always saved theology, but Im sure you must be familiar with them. Folks who hold such theology always argue, Well if they fell away from their faith/walk in Christ they really werent saved in the first place. It becomes a circular argument, and no real consensus is possible. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2
I believe in hell fire. I believe there is a choice...Him or not. I believe the path is narrow and few find it. I wouldn't say I live and let live. I tend to "tell it like it is" in certain circumstances. However, I don't get in people's faces and scream at them about how they're whores and going to hell. I tell them what I believe Scripture says and why they may be struggling the way they are. I guess maybe I do take advantage of situations and emotions at times. I know that doesn't sound good the way it's written. For instance...one person comes to mind as an example right away. Cheryl was an atheist and I took her case. She was leery at first when she first contacted me because she knew I was a "Christian". She let me know she thought Christians were hypocrites who basically sucked and she was an atheist. She made it clear she didn't want to hear any "God stuff" because she thought He sucked, too. I worked with her for a few months and watched her life go downhill. Things escalated and she wound up getting into more trouble. I knew she was going to get a jail sentence, but I did help her beat one rap. When her trial and stuff was going on, I asked her if maybe she needed to think about there being "someone else" who could fill her gaps in her life. Did she think there may be another way? She asked me if I was going to "give me that Christian crap". I said I wasn't a preacher, but if she wanted to listen, I could tell her a few things. She gave me three minutes. HeheheI don't remember what I said to her. She did get sentenced and went to jail. No one wrote her. She would write me letters and I would answer her...with big envelopes. I'd send her stuff from the groups, updates, print off portions of a book she had wanted to read. The first couple of letters, I got a little "preachy"she couldn't talk back to me or tell me to shut up! Her letters were pretty sadshe would rather be dead and jail was awful. I guess you could say I "played" on her emotional state and told her about God. There was noone who could pull her out of the dump she was in, except for God. I gave her my own experience of being in jail (Yes, TTer's, been there, done that.) I knew what she was going through. I knew what got me through and what would get her through. I just had to wait for HER to see it. The next few letters, I began sending her CHICK tracts and other things I could find. Of course, I sent her the Messianic articles, too. I'm not an evangelizer, so I get help from things I find form others who have more talents in that area. Simply put, I improvise. Here's a quote from her letter to me dated 8-11-04: 107 days to go, out of 219. I'm learning alot about religion-what it means to live "God-like"--why it's good. So, I'm becoming educated about this. I really didn't know anything. I admit that there's a lot to be said for living in such a manner. It can't be bad, if done correctly and NON-JUDGMENTALLY. My sister just got religion big-time over the last year and she got baptized a few months ago. Now she's not worth talking to! Righteousness out the ying-yang...she wants me to look in the mirror and take a look into my heart, blah, blah, blah--with regard to fighting CPS and she couldn't spell tyranny! Sorry-she's smart but not educated like you and me. At that point, Cheryl saw her sister "getting religion" and dumping her off. Yelling and screaming at her, doing what she would perceive as judging her would not work with her. She was hurt that her sister had dumped her and didn't understand her. She blamed God for doing that to her sister. I had shown Cheryl an example...when she called me in the middle of the night, I talked to her. I didn't make her feel like crap or disown her. Her letter in late-October informed me"I HAVE FOUND GOD!!! I REALLY HAVE!!" Then she gave me the details of her new-found love. Her whole demeanor was different. Cheryl now had hope. Her letters were now very different. She was excited, alive, a new person. Cheryl was even released a few days early...in November. She credited that to God. I've gotten a few emails from her, and shecontinues to bevery vibrant. So, do I live and let live? Maybe in a sense. I let people know I don't agree with their lifestyle and what I know God says about it. But I'm not the one making the decision of where they spend eternity. Do I get pushy? No. It didn't work with me, in fact it caused me to NOT accept Messiah for a longer period of time. I treat others the way I wanted to be treated, using what worked with me, with my own "style" tailored into it. I can't change people. People change themselves by allowing God to do the work in them. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Dave HansenSent: Saturday, 08 January, 2005 00.36To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2DAVEH:
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2
Hi, DaveH. I'll bet you are surprised that I responded to this email :-). Kevin is much more qualified than I to answer your question, but I thought that I would just recall some rather detailed posts I made some months, maybe a year, back. Many of our current members have probably joined since those posts. The short answer is that the LDS worship a different jesus and different god than those decribed in the Bible. That excludes them from being Christian. Perry From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2 Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 20:47:52 -0800 Kevin Deegan wrote: Mormons are generally nice people SADLY anyone that follows official Mormon Doctrine could not possibly be a CHRISTIAN DAVEH: Not only do I respectfully disagree with you on that, Kevin, but I am sad that you feel that way.:-( However, perhaps you define Christian differently than I do. How do you define it so that it excludes LDS folks, Kevin? --- Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
John also wrote:
1) that the condition of the heart carried
more weight in the soteriological sense that any other consideration
--- that salvation occured apart from
obedience.
The above is not true John because if
it werethen salvation would have to happen apart fromthe Holy Spirit
because it is written:
God gives the Holy Spirit to
those who obey Him (Jesus) Acts
5:32
And being made perfect He (Jesus)
became the author of eternal salvation unto all them
that obey Him. Hebrews 5:9
Know ye not that to whom ye yield
yourselves servants to obey his servants ye are
to whom ye obey,
whether of sin unto
death, or of obedience unto righteousness Romans
6:16. and you continue .
The
entire letter of I john is written with this purpose in mind
-- that we might have confidence in our
salvation.
John how can we have confidence in
something we are not yet in possession of? It's a salvation ready to be revealed
in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) andthe entire letter of 1 John includes
theconditions in 1 John 3:22-24: Whatsoever we ask we receive of him beause we keep his
commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight;
and this is his commandment that
we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another
as he gave us commandment. And he that
keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him and he in him
and hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us
(the ones who obey him)
He that loveth
not knoweth not God; for God is love 1 John 4:8
By this we know that we love the
children of God, when we love God and keep
his commandments. 1 John 5:2
For this is the love of
God, that we keep his commandments and his
commandments are not grievous 1 John 5:3
When I combine this biblical fact with the idea that
community is the very image of God, that we
were created in this image, that not only
attachment to others ("it is not good for man to be alone")
but a profound and expressed caring for those "others" is the
central issue in any definition of this Image, the conclusion if forced
upon me in this wise: that Christ, in the
flesh, was no less involved in this Image (of community) than
before or after the incarnation event...
The above is a horrible distortion John - Is
this the fruit of this "Eternal Son" doctrine, is this why that and the
Tertullian idea of Trinity is so important? The man Jesus was not a "community"
during His earthly ministry John and there is no "community"sitting at the
RH of the Father in heaven interceding for us right now. The "image" of
God is His nature and character which could be seen in Jesus by those paying
close attention; Phillip almost missed it... and this is the "image" we are to
be conformed to in Him. If you think you are already there then you've
missed it. Salvation is a walk of grace, one that we must cooperate with
byobedienceso that perfect love can drive out the fear in our hearts
and they will be perfected in love... (as Paul wrote to Timothy "the goal of the
instruction is love from a pure heart") So that when we "see Him" we
will be like
Him.
Grace and Peace, judyt
Bill writes: John wrote
There is a very real sense, then, that salvation is ours to loose.
I agree with you, John. However, it is only
before we have once placed our faith in Jesus Christthat we may
loseour salvation -- andso,this may be a fairly significant
HOWEVER that we will need to work out. I do not believe the one who has heard
the good news of Jesus Christ and believed that message will ever lose
his or her salvation, because upon believing in Jesus Christ, believers
receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, who in the Power of God secures their
salvation forever; the Gift guarantees their inheritance in Christ.
Check out the wording here and see if you see what I amsaying:In
[Christ] you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the
gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with
the Holy Spirit of promise,who is the guarantee of our inheritance until
the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory" (Eph
1.13-14). Bill
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Just for the record, the
following are some of those things I brought into this forum and where I am
now. I would be interested in a similar contruct from any and
all.
Those words above were the first words of what I thought would be a list
issues. Instead, writing this line after writing the following (below)
, the Lord has led me to a statement of faith of sorts and it is
.. . Water
baptism: for me, the last of the great Mohicans as regards my
works salvationist upbring. I believed that works
AND faith carried equal weight. That changed shortly before I came to this
list. And at the time I came onto this list, I
believed
RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2
Cool testimony, Kay. Izzy So, do I live and let live? Maybe in a sense. I let people know I don't agree with their lifestyle and what I know God says about it. But I'm not the one making the decision of where they spend eternity. Do I get pushy? No. It didn't work with me, in fact it caused me to NOT accept Messiah for a longer period of time. I treat others the way I wanted to be treated, using what worked with me, with my own style tailored into it. I can't change people. People change themselves by allowing God to do the work in them. Kay
RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
John also wrote: 1) that the condition of the heart carried more weight in the soteriological sense that any other consideration --- that salvation occured apart from obedience. The above is not true John because if it werethen salvation would have to happen apart fromthe Holy Spirit because it is written: God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him (Jesus) Acts 5:32 And being made perfect He (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him. Hebrews 5:9 Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness Romans 6:16. and you continue . Thats why Jesus said: Matt 13:12(H)For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Izzy
[TruthTalk] Moderator Report
In the fourth quarter of 2004 (Oct-Dec), these are the ending numbers: A total of 5,891 messages passed our port. Clifton, Terry 334 Items5.67% of the total Halverson, Marlin7 Items0.12% of the total Hamm, Laura 63 Items1.07% of the total Hansen, Dave24 Items0.41% of the total Henson, Slade/Kay 717 Items 12.17% of the total Hughes, Jonathan 232 Items3.94% of the total Locke, Charles Perry13 Items0.22% of the total Miller, David 422 Items7.16% of the total Muir, Lance802 Items 13.61% of the total Ottoson, Gary 337 Items5.72% of the total Petersen, Suzy 62 Items1.05% of the total Powers, Jeff 229 Items3.89% of the total Shields, Izzy 925 Items 15.70% of the total Smith, Ben 2 Items0.03% of the total Smithson, Jon 980 Items 16.64% of the total Taylor, Bill 146 Items2.48% of the total Taylor, Judy 594 Items 10.08% of the total ???, Pete 12 Items0.20% of the total ???, Thomas 2 Items0.03% of the total -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=35825item=6145256992rd=1ssPageName=WDVW -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Moderator Report
DAVEH: Hmm.I do see the problem here..We need to encourage Ben and Thomas to post more so the rest of us won't look like we are hogging most of the bandwidth! =-O BTWHow many TTers are currently subscribed? Slade Henson wrote: In the fourth quarter of 2004 (Oct-Dec), these are the ending numbers: A total of 5,891 messages passed our port. Clifton, Terry 334 Items5.67% of the total Halverson, Marlin7 Items0.12% of the total Hamm, Laura 63 Items1.07% of the total Hansen, Dave24 Items0.41% of the total Henson, Slade/Kay 717 Items 12.17% of the total Hughes, Jonathan 232 Items3.94% of the total Locke, Charles Perry13 Items0.22% of the total Miller, David 422 Items7.16% of the total Muir, Lance802 Items 13.61% of the total Ottoson, Gary 337 Items5.72% of the total Petersen, Suzy 62 Items1.05% of the total Powers, Jeff 229 Items3.89% of the total Shields, Izzy 925 Items 15.70% of the total Smith, Ben 2 Items0.03% of the total Smithson, Jon 980 Items 16.64% of the total Taylor, Bill 146 Items2.48% of the total Taylor, Judy 594 Items 10.08% of the total ???, Pete 12 Items0.20% of the total ???, Thomas 2 Items0.03% of the total -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2
Charles Perry Locke wrote: Hi, DaveH. I'll bet you are surprised that I responded to this email :-). Kevin is much more qualified than I to answer your question, but I thought that I would just recall some rather detailed posts I made some months, maybe a year, back. Many of our current members have probably joined since those posts. The short answer DAVEH: How does your answer pertain to my below question, Perry??? is that the LDS worship a different jesus and different god than those decribed in the Bible. That excludes them from being Christian. Perry Kevin Deegan wrote: Mormons are generally nice people SADLY anyone that follows official Mormon Doctrine could not possibly be a CHRISTIAN DAVEH: Not only do I respectfully disagree with you on that, Kevin, but I am sad that you feel that way. :-( However, perhaps you define Christian differently than I do. How do you define it so that it excludes LDS folks, Kevin? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2
DAVEH: Thanx for contributing to the discussion, Slade. Do you feel the below definitions you provided disqualifies LDS folks from being Christian? Slade Henson wrote: Mormons are generally nice people SADLY anyone that follows official Mormon Doctrine could not possibly be a CHRISTIAN Chris.tian( P ) Pronunciation Key (krschn) adj. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. Showing a loving concern for others; humane. n. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus. [Middle English Cristen, from Old English cristen, from Latin Chrstinus, from Chrstus, Christ. See Christ.] Christian.ly adj. adv. [Download or Buy Now] Source: The American HeritageR Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright C 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. christian adj 1: relating to or characteristic of Christianity; Christian rites [syn: Christian] 2: following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ [ant: unchristian] n : a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination [syn: Christian] Source: WordNet R 2.0, C 2003 Princeton University -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2
DAVEH: Thank you for sharing that with us, Kay. It gives me a good insight as to your character, and I do appreciate it.as I'm sure will the other TTers as well. Slade Henson wrote: I believe in hell fire. I believe there is a choice...Him or not. I believe the path is narrow and few find it. I wouldn't say I live and let live. I tend to "tell it like it is" in certain circumstances. However, I don't get in people's faces and scream at them about how they're whores and going to hell. I tell them what I believe Scripture says and why they may be struggling the way they are. I guess maybe I do take advantage of situations and emotions at times. I know that doesn't sound good the way it's written. For instance...one person comes to mind as an example right away. Cheryl was an atheist and I took her case. She was leery at first when she first contacted me because she knew I was a "Christian". She let me know she thought Christians were hypocrites who basically sucked and she was an atheist. She made it clear she didn't want to hear any "God stuff" because she thought He sucked, too. I worked with her for a few months and watched her life go downhill. Things escalated and she wound up getting into more trouble. I knew she was going to get a jail sentence, but I did help her beat one rap. When her trial and stuff was going on, I asked her if maybe she needed to think about there being "someone else" who could fill her gaps in her life. Did she think there may be another way? She asked me if I was going to "give me that Christian crap". I said I wasn't a preacher, but if she wanted to listen, I could tell her a few things. She gave me three minutes. HeheheI don't remember what I said to her. She did get sentenced and went to jail. No one wrote her. She would write me letters and I would answer her...with big envelopes. I'd send her stuff from the groups, updates, print off portions of a book she had wanted to read. The first couple of letters, I got a little "preachy"she couldn't talk back to me or tell me to shut up! Her letters were pretty sadshe would rather be dead and jail was awful. I guess you could say I "played" on her emotional state and told her about God. There was noone who could pull her out of the dump she was in, except for God. I gave her my own experience of being in jail (Yes, TTer's, been there, done that.) I knew what she was going through. I knew what got me through and what would get her through. I just had to wait for HER to see it. The next few letters, I began sending her CHICK tracts and other things I could find. Of course, I sent her the Messianic articles, too. I'm not an evangelizer, so I get help from things I find form others who have more talents in that area. Simply put, I improvise. Here's a quote from her letter to me dated 8-11-04: 107 days to go, out of 219. I'm learning alot about religion-what it means to live "God-like"--why it's good. So, I'm becoming educated about this. I really didn't know anything. I admit that there's a lot to be said for living in such a manner. It can't be bad, if done correctly and NON-JUDGMENTALLY. My sister just got religion big-time over the last year and she got baptized a few months ago. Now she's not worth talking to! Righteousness out the ying-yang...she wants me to look in the mirror and take a look into my heart, blah, blah, blah--with regard to fighting CPS and she couldn't spell tyranny! Sorry-she's smart but not educated like you and me. At that point, Cheryl saw her sister "getting religion" and dumping her off. Yelling and screaming at her, doing what she would perceive as judging her would not work with her. She was hurt that her sister had dumped her and didn't understand her. She blamed God for doing that to her sister. I had shown Cheryl an example...when she called me in the middle of the night, I talked to her. I didn't make her feel like crap or disown her. Her letter in late-October informed me"I HAVE FOUND GOD!!! I REALLY HAVE!!" Then she gave me the details of her new-found love. Her whole demeanor was different. Cheryl now had hope. Her letters were now very different. She was excited, alive, a new person. Cheryl was even released a few days early...in November. She credited that to God. I've gotten a few emails from her, and shecontinues to bevery vibrant. So, do I live and let live? Maybe in a sense. I let people know I don't agree with their lifestyle and what I know God says about it. But I'm not the one making the decision of where they spend eternity. Do I get pushy? No. It didn't work with me, in fact it caused me to NOT accept Messiah for a longer period of time. I treat others the way I wanted to be treated, using what worked with me, with my own "style" tailored into it. I can't change people. People change themselves by allowing God to do the work in them. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/7/2005 9:40:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . Water baptism: for me, the last of the great Mohicans as regards my works salvationist upbring. I believed that works AND faith carried equal weight. That changed shortly before I came to this list. And at the time I came onto this list, I believed that God had two considerations in His thinking on salvation: 1) that the condition of the heart carried more weight in the soteriological sense that any other consideration --- that salvation occured apart from obedience. DAVEH: ??? Do you believe one can be saved without obedience to repentance? John David Smithson Pastor and Bishop of Calfornia Aaah. My first real question after stating that I know what I believe. What we might call "obedience", which would include repentance, doing good, confession, visiting the widows and the fatherless, taking communion and the like, are things we do because we have been saved -- because we are already involved with God. That passage in Philip 2:12,13 is critical to me. The notion that "no man comes to the Son except the Father draw him" ( a paraphrase of John 6:44) is explained in this passage --- "work out your salvation in fear and trembling for it is God at work in you both to will and do His good pleasure." BOTH TO WILL AND TO PERFORM. There is a sense, a very real sense, that God is a part of our lives already. When Chrsit speaks of the children, he says " for such is the Kingdom ..." God is already there. He created us, He draws us unto Himself, if you believe that Christ is God Manifested and Defined; He is the influence that wills good works, He is power that performs those good works. What we are doing when we repent or confess or feed the poor -- is this: we are responding to the God within. In view of the scriptures above, how could we not think and believe that our actions or God's actions. I am not saved by that response -- rather, I am saved by that relationship. The reponses just happen. An obedience to repentance? If you mean, by that, actions that demonstrate a change of heart/mind, my answer is the same. The prodigal son demonstrates this obedience to repentance, does he not? But why did he turn around? Two reasons. 1) he was headed in the wrong direction -- leaving his community and moving away for the expressed purpose of serving himself. Correct? 2) He turns around because there is a reason to turn around -- a father who is already there. A home. An inheritance. A life. Acceptance without question. Forgiveness without reservation. He is 'saved" when he stops serving himself and begins the quest for expressed community and all the benefits that are associated with community. It just dawned on me -- the child is not lost at birth, born into sin and all that; rather, he is saved and then lost in self serving crap, and then saved as he responds to what is already his, crucifies himself, and chooses to live the life he was created to live. What do you think about THAT ?? DAVEH: HmmI think you forgot to answer my question, John. Please considerI'm not the sharpest tack in TT. I ofttimes have trouble understanding obtuse answers. Could I possibly persuade you to answer with a simple yes or no? I could be wrong, but probably not. Your friend Smithson -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
