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John also wrote:
1) that the condition of the heart carried
more weight in the soteriological sense that any other consideration
--- that salvation occured apart from
obedience.
The above is not true John because if
it were then salvation would have to happen apart from the Holy Spirit
because it is written:
God gives the Holy Spirit to
those who obey Him (Jesus) Acts
5:32
And being made perfect He (Jesus)
became the author of eternal salvation unto all them
that obey Him. Hebrews 5:9
Know ye not that to whom ye yield
yourselves servants to obey his servants ye are
to whom ye obey,
whether of sin unto
death, or of obedience unto righteousness Romans
6:16. and you continue .........
The
entire letter of I john is written with this purpose in mind
-- that we might have confidence in our
salvation.
John how can we have confidence in
something we are not yet in possession of? It's a salvation ready to be revealed
in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) and the entire letter of 1 John includes
the conditions in 1 John 3:22-24: Whatsoever we ask we receive of him beause we keep his
commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight;
and this is his commandment that
we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another
as he gave us commandment. And he that
keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him and he in him
and hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us
(the ones who obey him)
He that loveth
not knoweth not God; for God is love 1 John 4:8
By this we know that we love the
children of God, when we love God and keep
his commandments. 1 John 5:2
For this is the love of
God, that we keep his commandments and his
commandments are not grievous 1 John 5:3
When I combine this biblical fact with the idea that
community is the very image of God, that we
were created in this image, that not only
attachment to others ("it is not good for man to be alone")
but a profound and expressed caring for those "others" is the
central issue in any definition of this Image, the conclusion if forced
upon me in this wise: that Christ, in the
flesh, was no less involved in this Image (of community) than
before or after the incarnation event...
The above is a horrible distortion John - Is
this the fruit of this "Eternal Son" doctrine, is this why that and the
Tertullian idea of Trinity is so important? The man Jesus was not a "community"
during His earthly ministry John and there is no "community" sitting at the
RH of the Father in heaven interceding for us right now. The "image" of
God is His nature and character which could be seen in Jesus by those paying
close attention; Phillip almost missed it... and this is the "image" we are to
be conformed to in Him. If you think you are already there then you've
missed it. Salvation is a walk of grace, one that we must cooperate with
by obedience so that perfect love can drive out the fear in our hearts
and they will be perfected in love... (as Paul wrote to Timothy "the goal of the
instruction is love from a pure heart") So that when we "see Him" we
will be like
Him.
Grace and Peace, judyt
Bill writes: John wrote >
There is a very real sense, then, that salvation is ours to loose.
I agree with you, John. However, it is only
before we have once placed our faith in Jesus Christ that we may
lose our salvation -- and so, this may be a fairly significant
HOWEVER that we will need to work out. I do not believe the one who has heard
the good news of Jesus Christ and believed that message will ever lose
his or her salvation, because upon believing in Jesus Christ, believers
receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, who in the Power of God secures their
salvation forever; the Gift guarantees their inheritance in Christ.
Check out the wording here and see if you see what I am saying: In
[Christ] you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the
gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with
the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until
the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory" (Eph
1.13-14). Bill
Just for the record, the
following are some of those things I brought into this forum and where I am
now. I would be interested in a similar contruct from any and
all.
Those words above were the first words of what I thought would be a list
issues. Instead, writing this line after writing the following (below)
, the Lord has led me to a statement of faith of sorts and it is
......................................
. Water
baptism: for me, the last of the great Mohicans as regards my
works salvationist upbring. I believed that works
AND faith carried equal weight. That changed shortly before I came to this
list. And at the time I came onto this list, I
believed that God had two considerations in His thinking on salvation:
1) that the condition of the heart carried more weight in the soteriological
sense that any other consideration --- that salvation occured
apart from obedience. A prayerful consideration of
Ps 51 and Romans 2:8-29 showed me the basis for God's
judgment in our lives and confirmed the above
thinking; 2) that when this salvation is expressed in
Jesus Christ -- we have confidence and definition in
regard to our salvation. We know we are
saved. The entire letter of I john is written with this
purpose in mind -- that we might have confidence in our
salvation. As luck would have it, where I was when I came
to this forum was accidently correct, as far as it went.
(after coming to this list -- this is what happened
next)
Sadly, I did not understand why this was so
-- although I thought I did -- an
accident. Paul's argument (Gal 3) that the Abrahmic
promise was extended to Jesus Christ (as the seed, not of many but as of
one v 16) opened the door to understanding that it is the
faith of Christ that has secured (aorist, if you will) our
salvation. When I combine this biblical fact with the idea that
community is the very image of God, that we were created in this
image, that not only attachment to others ("it is not good for man
to be alone") but a profound and expressed caring for those
"others" is the central issue in any definition of this Image,
the conclusion if forced upon me in this wise: that Christ,
in the flesh, was no less involved in this Image (of
community) than before or after the incarnation event; that He
(in the flesh) gives definition of "God" (and I changed
verb tenses, here, intentionally for His was an action begun during
the incarnation and extending to this very moment or any moment we call
"now.") and my imitation of Him (to any degree) in deed and
perhaps word has the benefit of a salvation already procured for me in the
Christ of the Cross. I loose my salvation when I move to serve myself
and in so doing, deny the very Image I am. I am destroyed in
serving self.
My faith in Christ does not
save me -- it gives me confidence and opens the door to an
understanding of the soteriological process I am involved in as a human
being -- knowingly or not. When the biblical
message speaks of "saved," "being saved" and a future
"salvation," it is demonstrating the process we are all
involved in. The fact that "judgment day" is for all of mankind
proves, to me, that this process is for us all and that we are all involved
in it, like it or not --- whether they have heard of
Christ or not - no matter what.
Water baptism? How did that figure in?
Well, I used to believe that you had to be baptised to be
saved. Now, and here is the change for me, I believe that
anything I do, including water baptism however you define it (immersion
or sprinkling, I do not care), and especially those things done in the
name of the Lord, are acts that reveal God in Christ through me
to others. I can preach it or I can simply
perform. All is to the revealed glory and certainty of the
Great God Almighty. So baptism saved me years ago, at age 12,
because it was an _expression_ of the very faith of Christ Jesus
Himself. He was even baptised !!! And now I am doing
it ------------ that is salvation.
His life is mirrored in mine when I do what He
did
His life is confirmed in mine when I do what He wills.
-- me --
How could this not be salvation?
And the "baptism"
that really matters to me, is the one spoken of in Gal 3:26,27
-- a full immersion into Christ
Himself.
"Work out your own salvation in
fear and trembling for it is God at work in you both to will and to perform
His good pleasure" (Phil 2:12,13). Why did Paul add "fear
and trembling". The message is the same without this
parenthetical. It is exactly the same, to me. So
why? Because, if the performance of righteousness is act of
community and its individual memership -- the
pronouncement that it is God performing in us should bring to our mind a
startled awareness that is manifest in fear and trembling. In
this passage , Paul has suddenly put his readership in tune with that which
is the Subtle Force behind their works of goodness.
Suddenly -- there it is!! Community with God
Himself. He has been there all the
while. We have manifested Him over and over and over
again -- perphaps without even
knowing. And when we move away from any beneficial
_expression_ of this Image (community), we are moving away from Christ and His
God. We are denying Him and He Who Made Us.
There is a very real sense, then, that salvation is ours to
loose.
For the first time -- I think I
have understand this thing I have called "salvation" for, lo, these many
years.
You read, you decide.
Incidently, God revealed this to me - not my
friends in the liberal Triad. I have confidence that they will be the
first to admit this and point the finger to their God.
Thanks.
John David Smithson
Pastor and Bishop of
Caleeeefornia
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