[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/7/2005 9:40:10 PM
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
. Water baptism: for me,
the last of the great Mohicans as regards my works salvationist
upbring. I believed that works AND faith carried equal
weight. That changed shortly before I came to this list. And at
the time I came onto this list, I believed that God had two
considerations in His thinking on salvation: 1) that the condition of
the heart carried more weight in the soteriological sense that any
other consideration --- that salvation occured apart from obedience.
DAVEH: ??? Do you believe one can be saved without obedience
to repentance?
John David Smithson
Pastor and Bishop of Caleeeefornia
Aaahhhhh. My first real question after stating that I know what I
believe.
What we might call "obedience", which would include repentance, doing
good, confession, visiting the widows and the fatherless, taking
communion and the like, are things we do because we have been saved
-- because we are already involved with God. That passage in
Philip 2:12,13 is critical to me. The notion that "no man comes to
the Son except the Father draw him" ( a paraphrase of John 6:44) is
explained in this passage --------------- "work out your salvation in
fear and trembling for it is God at work in you both to will and do His
good pleasure." BOTH TO WILL AND TO PERFORM.
There is a sense, a very real sense, that God is a part of our
lives already. When Chrsit speaks of the children, he says
".... for such is the Kingdom ......." God is already there.
He created us, He draws us unto Himself, if you believe that Christ is
God Manifested and Defined; He is the influence that wills good
works, He is power that performs those good works. What we are doing
when we repent or confess or feed the poor -- is this: we are
responding to the God within. In view of the scriptures above, how
could we not think and believe that our actions or God's actions. I
am not saved by that response -- rather, I am saved by that
relationship. The reponses just happen.
An obedience to repentance? If you mean, by that, actions that
demonstrate a change of heart/mind, my answer is the same. The
prodigal son demonstrates this obedience to repentance, does he not?
But why did he turn around? Two reasons. 1) he was headed in the
wrong direction -- leaving his community and moving away for the
expressed purpose of serving himself. Correct? 2) He turns around
because there is a reason to turn around -- a father who is already
there. A home. An inheritance. A life. Acceptance without
question. Forgiveness without reservation. He is 'saved" when he
stops serving himself and begins the quest for expressed community and
all the benefits that are associated with community.
It just dawned on me -- the child is not lost at birth, born into
sin and all that; rather, he is saved and then lost in self serving
crap, and then saved as he responds to what is already his, crucifies
himself, and chooses to live the life he was created to live.
What do you think about THAT !!!! ??
DAVEH: Hmmmmmm........I think you forgot to answer my question,
John. Please consider....I'm not the sharpest tack in TT. I ofttimes
have trouble understanding obtuse answers. Could I possibly persuade
you to answer with a simple yes or no?
I could be wrong, but probably not.
Your friend
Smithson
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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