from:"CHamm56114"

I'm back - I was away on church related business and then a vacation to the forbidden land! Both weeks were great! I still am happy with my present church and have no problem with you worshipping in a "home setting". Whatever floats your boat! I would have a problem if you said home churches were the only way to worship. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

In a message dated 8/2/2003 4:37:57 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Hi Laura,
Welcome back!

You wrote: "I still am happy with my present church and have no problem with 
you worshipping in a "home setting". Whatever floats your boat! I would 
have a problem if you said home churches were the only way to worship."

Dear Sister, Is our "happiness" with a situation the benchmark that should 
guide us in our Christian lives and walk with the Lord and His people? If 
Abraham had said to the Lord, "I'm quite happy here in Ur of the Chaldees, 
I'd rather not head off somewhere in the desert not knowing where I'm 
going!" or "I'm quite happy to stay home and not take Isaac up to mount 
Moriah", do you think he would have enjoyed the blessing of God on His life 
that God had intended?

In like manner, thousands of Christians are quite happy to stay within a 
situation that is familiar and comfortable even though they are well aware 
that many things about that situation are contrary to scripture.

I think it was you who said that if you found that your church held false 
doctrines, you'd soon be finding another church. But you haven't responded 
to my questions about many false teachings and practices that you have 
indicated are held and practiced in your church.

There is a massive difference between happiness based on a familiar comfort 
zone and joy that is based on obedience to what one knows God has convicted 
them about in His Word. The safest, most secure, and most joyful place in 
all the universe is the place of obedience to Him.

Here's a very funny but serious song about someone who is concerned to 
maintain their comfort zone and totally unwilling to obey the Lord if he 
should call them into the unknown

PLEASE DON'T SEND ME TO AFRICA

O Lord I'm your willing servant
 You know that I have been for years
 I'm here in this pew every Sunday and Wednesday
 I've stained it with many a tear
 I've given you years of my service
 I've always given my best
 And I've never asked you for anything much
 So Lord I deserve this request

 Chorus:
 Please don't send me to Africa
 I don't think I've got what it takes
 I'm just a man, I'm not a tarzan
 Don't like lions, gorillas, or snakes
 I'll serve you here in suburbia
 In my comfortable middle class life
 But please don't send me out in the bush
 Where the natives are restless at night

 I'll see that the money is gathered
 I'll see that the money is sent
 I'll wash and stack the communion cups
 I'll tithe 11 percent
 I'll volunteer for the nursery
 I'll go on the youth retreat
 I'll usher, I'll deacon, I'll go door to door
 Just let me keep warming this seat

 Chorus:
 Please don't send me to Africa
 I don't think I've got what it takes
 I'm just a man, I'm not a tarzan
 Don't like lions, gorillas, or snakes
 I'll serve you here in suburbia
 In my comfortable middle class life
 But please don't send me out in the bush
 Where the natives are restless at night

Are homes the only place to worship?

Of course, homes are not the only place believers can worship the Lord! 
Saints can do it beside a river (Acts 16), they can do it with their backs 
beaten and bloodied in stocks in filthy prisons (Acts 16), they can do it 
as a little band of travelling evangelists in a room of the lodging house 
where they have their temporary abode (Acts 20), they can do it as lonely 
prisoners on board ship with a mob of unbelievers around them (Acts 27).

But you will search the the new covenant scriptures in vain to find saints 
gathering in temples, sanctuaries, auditoriums etc which they have bought or 
built for the purpose! You will search in vain to find new covenant saints 
gathering to listen to a clergyman preach them a "sermon". You will search 
in vain to find new covenant saints tithing to pay the salary of their 
clergyman or the mortgage on their sanctuary. And you will search in vain to 
find any flock of sheep in scripture hiring their pastors, paying their 
pastors' salaries or firing their pastors! Those are all the 
responsibilities of the Owner of the sheep!

New covenant church always function by new covenant principles.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce


OK Let me rephrase that! GOD has not told me to change my method of worship! And I love that song. My son was a missionary to Africa 10 years ago this summer. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

What right do you have to say that my church has many false teachings and practices? Laura

I think it was you who said that if you found that your church held false 
doctrines, you'd soon be finding another church. But you haven't responded 
to my questions about many false teachings and practices that you have 
indicated are held and practiced in your church.

Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

None of you have any idea where I worship and how I worship and how my church functions. You are jumping to conclusions. I refuse to be pulled in. Laura

Laura:
 God has given you overwhelming evidence in His word. He has told you how to gather with other believers and be the Church. He has spoken. You simply won't listen.
 
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

In a message dated 8/2/2003 5:39:31 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


The point is not whether He told you to change, but rather did He give you 
scriptural guidance to commence your current "method of worship" in the 
first place?


Yes God opened doors for me to be able to move here and it is a long story but I have no doubt that I am worshipping where the Lord wants me. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

In a message dated 7/18/2003 9:48:07 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Even that outside giving that you mention, how much of it
is actually given to people in need?

I do have a financial report but I don't have a scanner. 7% of outside giving for Foreign Missions goes to administrative costs. Our church gave $102,000 last year just to Foreign Missions. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

Interesting that you use Tampa as an example. I'm headed there tomorrow. Regarding money - I don't have the figures where I can put my hands on them. (The little ones are in the room where that file is kept) I didn't mean to mislead you - we give that total amount to the Foreign Missions Dept and they use a small amount for their expenses. Mail room, printing, phone etc. I believe the actual bldg is debt free but of course there is always maintanence. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] missions

Terry, You are entitled to your opinion and also to your own views of tithing. If that works for you and is what God has told you to do then by all means go for it. I don't have time to argue nor do I have the desire. I have several personal friends who are missionaries and I assure you that they do not live high on the hog. Travel is expensive, schooling for their children is expensive, language study is expensive, and the list goes on and on. My son was a missionary on a very primitive field. Just getting paperwork in place to go overseas is expensive - not to mention shots etc. One thing I can tell you is that they have to raise an inflated amount of money because people sign faith promise cards and do not follow through. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

In a message dated 7/18/2003 5:32:59 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Dear Sister, does your church teach and practice:
-that the church is to be lead by the pastor? YES With a board
-that the pastor is hired and paid by the church? Yes and he earns every penny
-that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which 
scripture says is to be for poor saints? YES
-that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church programs? The scriptures teach this
-that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and 
listen to sermons from the pastor? NO 
-that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church 
leaders? Not necessarily Accountable to God

Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus is Jehovah]

In a message dated 7/18/2003 10:22:52 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

And I
also think that if most women honestly listened to their hearts, they would
agree that the same is true for them. :-) 


AMEN! Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

2003-07-17 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 7/17/2003 8:25:25 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Has anyone in any religious organization or denominational church ever 
taught you that ALL accountability in scripture is VERTICAL! (i.e. Godward!) 


Absolutely I agree that it is ulitmately vertical but I am going to place my money where I know it is being used to further the Kingdom. I am not saying your "church group" is practicing false doctrine. What I am saying is that it does happen. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

2003-07-17 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 7/17/2003 8:25:25 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The popular accountability doctrine teaches that I need to be "under 
accountability", that I need to get my assignments from a pastor, from a 
board of directors etc and that I must report on how I have fulfilled their 
assignments so that they can evaluate my performance! 

Everything has to have an order - God is not the author of confusion. If there isn't someone at the head then everyone can just do their own thing. I believe that everyone has a place to serve according to their abilities, talents and gifts. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] What is a new testament church?

2003-07-15 Thread CHamm56114

Interesting method of worship. Where do you send your tithe and do you support mission programs? Laura
Yes, I am involved in a home church! But I don't think I have ever 
experienced a "typical house church meeting" if you know what I mean! But 
what IS typical is that we never have a preplanned "agenda". order of 
service, appointed speakers etc People's needs vary, what God has been 
teaching individuals or the group varies, so we seek to be open to what the 
Lord may do in our gatherings. Sometimes we have sung for our entire time 
together, sometimes we have prayed the entire time! But usually there is a 
variety of singing, sharing, praying, reading and discussing of scriptures. 
And we usually eat a meal together and remember the Lord as we do so. Even 
the timing of that is not "set in stone"! Sometimes we eat at the end of our 
time, at other times we eat at the very beginning! But above all, we desire 
to allow the Lord to have His way and to be sensitive to minister to needs 
as they arise.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

Re: [TruthTalk] Two Questions For Glenn

2003-07-11 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 7/11/2003 4:45:07 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Australia does not have alligators. Did Glenn mean crocodile, or did they import the alligator?

 David Miller





I think it was crocodile Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Two Questions For Glenn

2003-07-10 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 7/10/2003 8:58:41 PM Central Daylight Time, GJ Tabor writes:
Thought you all might enjoy hearing from Glenn He is swamped with work and now has developed some really strange eating habits - not a good sign!! Laura
Send them an email for me. Tell them I just got back from Australia saving souls from hell while eating kangaroo, alligator, and of course some of the best salmon in the world. Australian salmon is as good as fresh Alaskan salmon. 

I didn't like the kangaroo. It tasted like deer, which I don't like unless a godly Christian grandmother knows how to cook it right, but thought the alligator was good.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Plague

2003-07-06 Thread CHamm56114

THis made me wonder if anyone has heard from Jeff - I know he can't write or phone but wondered if Dave had heard from the grapevine how he is doing? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism by Fire

2003-06-26 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 6/26/2003 12:14:03 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

5) Baptism with fire
Baptism with fire is only meant for the saints of God. It involves The Lord allowing his saints to pass through serious sufferings that when bravely handled, glorifies and gives honor to the name of the most high living God. This baptism of fire is only for true believers. Salvation does not mean that all is smooth. There are serious storms in the lives of the saints of God. The baptism of fire ushers the saints of God into tests, trials, temptations and other various forms of afflictions, to test their faith and their total dependency upon God. Baptism by fire brings about grace for a positive change in the life of believers towards God and enhances spiritual maturity. 

Very interesting thread Thanks for sharing, Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: CLUELESS IN D.C.

2003-06-14 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 6/14/2003 1:26:39 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The spell checker on this computer keeps wanting to change her
name from Izzy to Dizzy. Maybe it knows something that I don't.



The problem is that you have a male computer. You need to download a female spell checker! LOL BTW It's often the women who take the time to find out about the candidates and research their platforms. Right Izzy? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Mr. Terry Clifton, your efforts score a pro-life

2003-06-14 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 6/14/2003 2:11:18 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Oregon probably has the most beautiful maple wood, either Quilted maple or fiddleback (tigerstripe).


I brought back a key chain made of myrtle from Oregon (which I lost!) but myrtle is beautiful wood. I bet a gun would be beautiful! Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Mr. Terry Clifton, your efforts score a pro-life

2003-06-14 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 6/14/2003 7:11:23 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Myrtle is indeed a beautiful wood, but not too popular as a gunstock wood because it is not too stable 

Thanks for the info. It is definately interesting. I bet Loni wonders how on earth we got on this subject. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] REAL Christianity

In a message dated 6/10/2003 7:28:55 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

God decides who will rule. The Bible says so in several places. IMO, Since
real Christians are a minority, and this is an ungodly country, He gives us
ungodly leaders. Just the kind we deserve.
You won't agree, of course, but that does not change the facts.



Would you say that Pres Bush is an ungodly leader? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] REAL Christianity

In a message dated 6/10/2003 9:05:16 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Laura:
For me, the Jury is still out on this one. He no doubt talks the talk, but he is a Freemason, a member of secret organization that traces it's beginning to Nimrod, the builder of the tower of Babel. He not only bows to Jesus Christ. He also bows to a worshipful master.
 I hope this is done in ignorance,


My husband was a Freemason but left when he realized. Much of it is a business relationship. They memorize a bunch of stuff and have no clue. I would suspect that he is not actively involved now. If you go back through history most political leaders in our country have some masonic roots. It is almost like an adult boy scouts. Not that I am condoning it. I do believe he is a man of God - in fact I have a close friend who was in his company and can attest to his belief. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] REAL Christianity

In a message dated 6/10/2003 10:35:37 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Laura, I think that is a slanderous lie that you have been fed about GWBush. Has he personally told you this, or are you believing rightwing websites? Izzy

 



THis is as personal as if I had been there. This is not a lie. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] REAL Christianity

In a message dated 6/10/2003 1:23:57 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Well it is still hearsay to me, so I dont believe it. Izzy

This friend was present at a recognition ceremony of some small Christian business owners. She was given the privilege of introducing a new cabinet member and was seated on the front row. She finished her introduction and was greeted by Pres Bush as she left the podium. He stood before her and told her and many others in the room that his goal was to open the doors for Christian business to get their materials into other countries so that the gospel could be spread throughout the world. My friend came away with complete assurance that George Bush is a man of God. This woman has more integrity than anyone I have ever met. She would not lie and how could she. The room was full of press and photographers. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Gluttony Exercise

2003-06-09 Thread CHamm56114

I talked to Glenn over the weekend and told him about this thread. He said"tell TT Glenn says if one is one oz overweight in God's eyes they are not perfect and headed to hell if the perfect doctrine is correct. " He still has his touch! LOL Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Gay Days at the Magic Kingdom

2003-06-05 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 6/5/2003 7:42:10 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Excuse me, but I wasnt trying to prevent you from doing either. Izzy



I was kidding Laura

Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Indianapolis police..'gluttony'

2003-06-05 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 6/5/2003 9:59:27 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Bodily exercise would profit a lot to an obese person. It might even save their life. However, saving their physical life is nothing compared to saving one's soul

One commentator I read said that if we noticed the amount of practice and excercise that goes into preparing for a football season and then compared that with the amount of "excercise" we put into living a Godly life we would understand that excercise is not bad but that we need to put the same effort into our relationship with Christ. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Indianapolis police..'gluttony'

2003-06-04 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 6/3/2003 11:45:57 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

SLC/MMM is just like Disneyland--primarily concerned about humoring Americans in the here and now while rakin' in as much money as possible.. 

Ah Gary you had to throw that one in!!! LOL Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Gay Days at the Magic Kingdom

2003-06-04 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 6/4/2003 9:52:39 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Read about Gay Days at Disneyworld: 

No Thanks I bought my tickets today and I am going. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] questioning motives

2003-05-29 Thread CHamm56114

I just think that we have to understand that while one person may feel it is wrong to support or attend something another may not have the same problem. This is Christian liberty is it not?? For example I know people who will not stay in a Holiday Inn because at one time they offered (for a fee) in room porn movies. What about the recent boycotts against anything made in France? I saw the list and was amazed at the products we buy that are manufactured in France. 

To Terry I say if going to Disney is offensive to you then stay home. Also don't watch TV - Disney owns Lifetime, A  E and ESPN. OH And don't watch ABC either! The list goes on and on and this is just Disney. Laura

Re: [Fwd: [TruthTalk] The walking dead]

2003-05-29 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 5/28/2003 8:29:18 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

LOL! Does that mean you are going to Disney World to minister to the homos?
Hey--why don't we all show up on homo day and pass out tracts and
evangelize! David M. can be our leader. Izzy


NOPE I am going to Tampa to fellowship with other believers and to do the Grandma thing while my SIL and daughter minister and then we are going to see Mickey and the princesses with the little ones. OH Yes the 2 1/2 year old has her heart set on touring Mickey's house! Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Absent From The Body

2003-05-29 Thread CHamm56114

At least it is interesting reading. Pass the marshmallows. PLEASE

Re: PROBABLE SPAM Re: [TruthTalk] Absent From The Body

Does anyone know how that phrase Probably SPam shows up in the subject line? Laura

Re: [Fwd: [TruthTalk] The walking dead]

In a message dated 5/27/2003 5:30:02 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Hey Laura. I'm going in July also, with the whole family. I'm booked
the nights of July 5th and 6th. Will you be there then? I sure would
love to meet you and have you meet my family.



No We will be in Tampa from the 19th until the 25th at a convention and then we are renting a car and driving to Orlando until the 30th. We are staying at Holiday Inn Kid Suites! They gave us the best deal plus kids eat free. Onsite was out of the question because we have to count the baby as a person and would need 2 rooms. This way we get a suite and it is totally a kids thing! Should be a great photo op week for the scrapbooks. The girls are excited. I'd love to meet your family also. Joani was glad to have met them. I am thinking of going to Jacksonville in Nov with Joani. Laura

Re: [Fwd: [TruthTalk] The walking dead]

In a message dated 5/27/2003 8:48:02 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 
Suit yourself. Long list or compromise.
 




Are we judging motives Do you want a complete list? I think you would all be surprised at all the things we would have to "boycott"

Re: [Fwd: [TruthTalk] The walking dead]

In a message dated 5/27/2003 9:27:40 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I was thinking more like , would I take Jesus there?

I think Jesus would go in a heartbeat!!!

Re: [TruthTalk] Do I have to observe Saturday worship in order to be right wi...

2003-04-04 Thread CHamm56114

That archive is handy. thanks Laura

Re: [TruthTalk]

2003-04-04 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 4/4/2003 12:44:56 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Izzy:
 G.W. was sworn in on a Masonic Bible, not the one that you read.


Terry How do you know that it is not the same Bible. My husband had a Masonic Bible and it was a regular King James version. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk]

2003-04-03 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 4/3/2003 9:42:06 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

He is a Freemason. He bows down to a worshipful master. You cannot serve two masters.



Many Christians are Free Masons and don't realize it is not a "Christian organization" My husband was until he left masonry - his issue was the fact that Jesus was not mentioned. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk]

2003-04-03 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 4/3/2003 10:00:19 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

but it was on CNN. If you watch long enough, they usually repeat all the news at least three times. 
 Terry 
 


CNN and ABC are usually too liberal for me

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

2003-03-26 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 3/21/2003 9:14:28 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Jesus judged motives. Did he sin when he did this, or does he get a
free pass because he supposedly was not really subject to human
weaknesses?


Jesus didn't have to judge motives - he knew the heart of man! Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

2003-03-26 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 3/21/2003 9:59:44 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I have only given you warning that it is the Lord who weighs your boasting, so be very careful that your boasting is not considered arrogance to Him, who is Judge

Glenn is the LEAST judgmental person I know. I'm not taking up for him but you need to realize that many of his views are because he is not a judgmental person. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Free Computer Bible

2003-03-25 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 3/25/2003 9:31:43 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

If you have a computer, you might want to take a peek 

What is the ISV version? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Shiloh

2003-03-06 Thread CHamm56114

I certainly will pray for Shiloh keep us posted. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Origin Of The Fish Symbol

2003-02-25 Thread CHamm56114

This is a great example of a joy drainer! They drag you down and you soon are as negative as they are. Laura

I once met a woman who saw a demon behind every bush. Everywhere she went she was doing spiritual warfare, all the time, even in her own house. This woman was NOT a pleasure to be around. And she was dwelling on the DEVIL; and not on JESUS. (And I think SHE was the one full of demons!) A dark, disturbing, downer of a person. How can one reflect the glory of the Lord if they are always looking on the dark side? Izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] 2nd Commandment

2003-02-25 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 2/25/2003 12:17:53 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I have heard that the Amish, when house cleaning, will not clean mirrors because they do not want to see their image in them. Do you see a problem with using mirrors?



The Amish women do not have mirrors because it is considered idolotry. They also do not put faces on the childrens dolls. But the kids do have baby dolls that are gorgeous from Germany with faces. I had some Amish friends when I lived in DE and I never saw a doll in Amish dress with a face but the little girls carried around these German baby dolls all the time. I tried to buy one at the Amish bookstore but they were out of them. For some strange reason it never seemed to be a conflict to me. They asked us not to take pictures of them with the faces showing. I looked at it as a cultural thing. These people may have some strange beliefs but they didn't shove them on anyone else and really believed it so that was fine with me. My friend was a wonderful hostess and very kind to us "english": people. They had no electricity but had a phone in the basement for business purposes and a generator in the shop so they could use the copy machine etc. It was an interesting culture. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Origin Of The Fish Symbol

2003-02-24 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 2/23/2003 7:38:09 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

To the evil, all things are evil, and to
the pure, all things are pure. Let us learn what that means and avoid those
who find evil everywhere.


I am in agreement I am sick and tired of all the posts being negative. Can't we find something interesting and discuss it instead of finding everything evil? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Origin Of The Fish Symbol

In a message dated 2/23/2003 11:23:15 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Patriarchs knew how old they were; but never did they observe a birthday. 

Cool from now on no birthdays! I can live with that one! Can you not admit that one can spend so much time trying to figure out what they can or can't do or eat that they have little time to spread the good news? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Happy Birthday?



Thank you thank you thank you. Now I don't have to turn off the smoke detectors on my birthday!!! Laura

In a message dated 2/23/2003 12:54:32 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


First, you only have ONE birthday.

Can a man enter the second time into his mother's womb?

Ecclesiastes, the book of wisdom that rails against vanity, says:

"A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth." Ecc. 7:1

Re: [TruthTalk] Origin Of The Fish Symbol



And my point is that if a Christian is practicing these things and is NOT doing it for pagan reasons then so what? A fish symbol on a piece of jewelry is not going to send anyone to hell. Putting candles on a cake and celebrating a birthday is not going to send anyone to hell. Not knowing about Jesus and having the opportunity to have a relationship with Jesus will send someone to hell. Laura

In a message dated 2/23/2003 1:38:41 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


 The point is that these Pagan practices are forbidden to God's people, yet "Christians" have adopted them. Unfortunately, "Christians" drive people into cults where they find shelter from such Pagan syncretism, practiced by "Christianity." "Christians" love to have it so. At the same time "Christians" throw out the good things that God gives us and call them "bondage." Go figure

Re: [TruthTalk] Origin Of The Fish Symbol

In a message dated 2/23/2003 3:02:59 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

But to commemorate 'your' day and 'make a wish' and 'blow out the candles' is a purely Pagan practice of witchcraft.

We celebrate birthdays and for the children especially put candles on ther cake. Call us pagan if you'd like! Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Origin Of The Fish Symbol

2003-02-22 Thread CHamm56114

Here we go again. So what is the point. If we wear a fish with a cross engraved in it we are some kind of pagan??? I was taught the first example you listed but I am beginning to think that we could find something pagan about just about everything. Next thing we know we will find out that candles on birthday cakes are wrong - besides being a fire hazzard in my case! Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] hypnotism

2003-02-14 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 2/14/2003 10:55:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Here’s a NEW topic: I hope somebody even cares. I saw a program on TV today about a hypnotist, and it got me to wondering about it. I’ve read in the past that hypnotism is a demonic thing and Christians should never do it, etc. I wonder what really is the truth about it. It is truly spooky. Any ideas? Izzy



I would think that it puts a person into a situation where someone else's suggestion is accepted. Isn't it the power of suggestion that hypnotism is all about. That puts a person under someone elses power and it is likely that they would be a Christian. Even if they were we should be relying on God and not some other person. I think the whole thing opens a person up to major spiritual warfare. I have heard people say that if a person is a "born again" Christian then they can't be possessed by a demon but it sure seems to me that under some kind of hypnotic trance a demon could take control. Not something I'd want to dabble in - that's for sure. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Yes, to claim the law is not a curse is to sin

2003-02-13 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 2/13/2003 10:04:15 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Perry,

Obviously I am saved by the grace of God through faith in the shed Blood of
Jesus Christ. Not one thing I do can erase a single sin from my life. "She
who is forgiven much, loves much," and I have been forgiven of much! I never
claimed to be "under the Law" as you and your itching-for-an-argument
friends keep contending.

This does not mean I disregard God's Commandments just because, "God will
have to forgive me no matter what I do/don't do," as so many "Christians"
seem to believe today. I do think one can grieve the Holy Spirit and incur
severe judgment for it. I love His Commandments. I rejoice in obeying Him.
NOT because I am trying to earn my salvation, but because I am grateful that
I am saved, and I LOVE HIM!!!

I think a big misunderstanding is happening here because there is a distinct
difference between JUSTIFICATION (which is given to us automatically when we
receive Christ as Lord), and SANCTIFICATION (which is something we work on,
in cooperation with God's grace, throughout our lives.)

I think Jerry Bridges stated it well in "The Discipline of Grace":
"Justification and sanctification are inseparable. God never gives one
without the other. Both have their source in the infinite love and free
grace of God. Both are accomplished by faith. In justification we rely on
what Christ did FOR us. In sanctification we rely on Christ to work IN us by
His Holy Spirit. I justification, as well as regeneration, God acts in
alone. In sanctification He works in us BUT ELICITS OUR RESPONSE TO
COOPERATE WITH HIM. Our part, that is, our response to the HS's work
and our cooperation with Him in His work is the pursuit of holiness."

People who belittle those seeking after holy obedience to God are a reproach
to God's grace. I am sure that is not what those screaming "I am all
grace/no law" seek to do, but that is how it comes across.

I agree with your comments and definition of Justification and Sanctification. I have a problem when someone doesn't see sanctification as an ongoing process. I think the greek verb is actually being sanctified or something. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Just a clarification from Glenn

2003-02-10 Thread CHamm56114

Glenn is right here - Galations 3:13 makes that clear. Have you bothered to read it!
Glenn wrote:
The law is a curse ... Gal. 3:13

Men and brethren,

It grieves me to hear someone claim that the law is a curse. This was the
testimony of false witnesses against men of God, claiming that they
blasphemed the law and taught against the law (Acts 6:13). Nowhere in the
Bible does it teach us that the law is a curse. Rather, the testimony of
Scripture is as follows:

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just,
and good.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the
testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Please, let us not blaspheme against the holy and righteous law of God.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA

Re: [TruthTalk] Just a clarification from Glenn

2003-02-10 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 2/10/2003 3:59:54 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


We are redeemed from the law's curse, not from the law. The way Glenn
talks, people need to be saved from the law. The way Glenn talks, the law
and sin are the same thing. The law is a curse; the law is bad for us; the
law is sin. But none of this is true. Nobody needs to be saved from the
law. We need to be saved from sin.


I don't know about Glenn but I am saved by grace and am not under the law. Jesus took the curse of the law upon him when he took my place at Calvary. Maybe The problem is semantics. I just know I am dead to the law. BTW I read your entire post but just didn't highlight it so people didn't have to wade through everything. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Depraved minds

2003-02-09 Thread CHamm56114

If they are under conviction then they are still being drawn by the Holy Spirit. As long as the HS is drawing them then God hasn't written them off. Laura
how long one can be under conviction and refuse to repent without God writing that person off That’s the Big Question!!! (I can think of a few that I wish He would have zapped a long time ago!) 

 

What happens when God “writes them off”? Does He kill them, or just let them run around making other people unhappy for the rest of their natural lives?

 

Here’s another question: When God turns someone over to a reprobate mind, is there still a chance for them to repent? Could it be a way of trying to get them to repent, by experiencing the full judgment of their depravity?

 

A related question is this: Does God bring the lost under judgment (ie: experiencing the penalty of their rebellion in order to try to get them to repent), or just Believers? 

 

Here’s another: Have you ever experienced God’s judgment? If so, how did you know it was His judgment? How did you repent? Were you glad it happened afterwards?

 

Izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] Truth on Lent

2003-02-08 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 2/8/2003 9:46:41 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

As you said, people “give up things that aren’t good for them anyway”—so what’s the point? Does this make you any holier or closer to God?

Not in my opinion Even though it amazes me, I know I am under the grace of God plus nothing else. I consider much of that stuff to be works. But if someone feels they need to observe Lent than have at it. Not for me though. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] God and war

2003-01-28 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 1/28/2003 7:53:17 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 
Second, I stopped "pledgin" to the flag long ago. It just doesn't set well with me Scripturally speaking.
 





Pledging to the flag is a personal thing. I think it is my responsibility to respect my country and the authorities and I think that is biblical. I pledge to the flag and am proud that I do it. As for McDonalds - hard to do the gramma thing and avoid that one totally! Also if you don't patronize them then don't go to Home Depot or Dillards either - AND I'm sure there are more! Like hotel chains that have the option of seeing porn on the TV ! We could get really legalistic here. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] God and war

2003-01-28 Thread CHamm56114

OK So you don't pledge to the flag but how about to the country it represents which is one nation under God? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] God and war

2003-01-28 Thread CHamm56114

I'm not even dignifying this one with an answer! I will spend my time doing something worthwhile for the kingdom of God! Laura
o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !!
 





Pledging to the flag is a personal thing.
 
That's just what homosexuals, abortion supporters, and a whole slew of other sinners say!
 
I think it is my responsibility to respect my country and the authorities and I think that is biblical.
 
Lots of people "think" lots of things are biblical but that don't make it so. II Timothy 2:15-22
 
I pledge to the flag and am proud that I do it.
 
Proverbs 16:18
 
As for McDonalds - hard to do the gramma thing and avoid that one totally! 
 
Not if you truly LOVE The SAVIOUR! Proverbs 16:17
 
Also if you don't patronize them then don't go to Home Depot or Dillards either -
 
No problem there.
 
 AND I'm sure there are more!
 
Will you so hastily reject them also? Proverbs 16:16
 
Like hotel chains that have the option of seeing porn on the TV !
 
You do that? SHAME ON YOU!
 
We could get really legalistic here. Laura
 -- Matthew 7:13
 
"Stick and stones" etc. Chris
 -- Matthew 7:14 
 
- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 01/28/2003 8:24 AM
 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God and war
 

In a message dated 1/28/2003 7:53:17 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Second, I stopped "pledgin" to the flag long ago. It just doesn't set well with me Scripturally speaking.

Re: [TruthTalk] How is Marlin?

2003-01-27 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 1/27/2003 5:57:38 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Point understood. There are those who worship a doctrine or written word
rather than the Creator who made the doctrine or inspired the word.
--Marlin


Marlin This is scary - I actually agree with you on this one! Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fwd: [www.washtimes.com] Jefferson, Roe Wade

In a message dated 1/22/2003 11:54:19 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~epe


Peter I noticed on your website a link to UT? What is your connection to Tennessee? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Stand for the Unborn!

In a message dated 1/23/2003 12:14:10 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Mary had miscarried early on, would that mean Jesus would have died prior
to the cross? Isn't it possible that the Spirit of Jesus did not get
imparted into the fetus until sometime after the fetus had developed?

The Hebrew Scriptures say that the soul is in the blood. Is is possible
that there must be a circulation system in order for the soul to inhabit the
body?



SO when does the circulation system begin? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Stand for the Unborn!

Maybe this will answer some of the questions. laura

Blood Circulation in the Fetus and Newborn

How does the fetal circulatory system work?
During pregnancy, the fetal circulatory system works differently than after birth:

The fetus is connected by the umbilical cord to the placenta, the organ that develops and implants in the mother's uterus during pregnancy.
Through the blood vessels in the umbilical cord, the fetus receives all the necessary nutrition, oxygen, and life support from the mother through the placenta.
Waste products and carbon dioxide from the fetus are sent back through the umbilical cord and placenta to the mother's circulation to be eliminated.

Blood from the mother enters the fetus through the vein in the umbilical cord. It goes to the liver and splits into three branches. The blood then reaches the inferior vena cava, a major vein connected to the heart.

Inside the fetal heart:

Blood enters the right atrium, the chamber on the upper right side of the heart. Most of the blood flows to the left side through a special fetal opening between the left and right atria, called the foramen ovale.
Blood then passes into the left ventricle (lower chamber of the heart) and then to the aorta, (the large artery coming from the heart).
>From the aorta, blood is sent to the head and upper extremities. After circulating there, the blood returns to the right atrium of the heart through the superior vena cava.
About one third of the blood entering the right atrium does not flow through the foramen ovale, but, instead, stays in the right side of the heart, eventually flowing into the pulmonary artery. Because the placenta does the work of exchanging oxygen (O2) and carbon dioxide (CO2) through the mother's circulation, the fetal lungs are not used for breathing. Instead of blood flowing to the lungs to pick up oxygen and then flowing to the rest of the body, the fetal circulation shunts (bypasses) most of the blood away from the lungs. In the fetus, blood is shunted from the pulmonary artery to the aorta through a connecting blood vessel called the ductus arteriosus.

With the first breaths of air the baby takes at birth, the fetal circulation changes. A larger amount of blood is sent to the lungs to pick up oxygen.

Because the ductus arteriosus is no longer needed, it begins to wither and close off.

The circulation in the lungs increases and more blood flows into the left atrium of the heart. This increased pressure causes the foramen ovale to close and blood circulates normally.

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Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fwd: [www.washtimes.com] Jefferson, Roe Wade

In a message dated 1/23/2003 8:13:22 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


In St. Louis we need to learn ice fishing—it’s going to be 7 below zero (that’s Fahrenheit for you Outlanders!) Izzy




Hey Izzy we may have you beat! And I have to drive east tomorrow. Thankfully it is on the main roads. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Stand for the Unborn!

2003-01-22 Thread CHamm56114

This is my belief Laura
Five signs of life in the womb:

1. Heartbeat

Modern technology can detect a baby's heartbeat eighteen days after conception.

That is only four days after most women miss a period and begin to suspect they are pregnant.

Most abortions are not performed until the eighth week (56 days) of a pregnancy, or a little later.
2. Brain waves

Six weeks after conception signals from the fetal brain can be detected.

Dream patterns have been discovered around the eighth or ninth week.

Perhaps more advanced technology will someday show us heartbeats and brain waves at even earlier stages in the unborn child's life. 3. Independent movement

At about the sixth week, the baby in the womb can move spontaneously: Kicking, swimming, jumping and stretching.

This is long before the mother will feel any sensations of movement. 4. Senses

A baby in the womb is capable of responding to touch and sound by about the eighth or tenth week.

A child at that age will move away from painful stimuli, the most painful of which would be the abortionist's instrument. 5. Breathing

By about the fourteenth week, a baby's lungs are functioning and he or she will practice breathing.

Vocal cords are formed by the thirteenth week, and were it not for a lack of air, the baby could be heard to cry!

>From the very beginning, once a human egg is fertilized by sperm, there exists a new human being. All information about the child's sex, hair color, eye color, and much more is already present from the beginning.

Re: [TruthTalk] Stand for the Unborn!

2003-01-21 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 1/21/2003 4:27:55 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I saw snow on the ground once when I was driven across the Sierra-Nevadas
from Sacramento to Las Vegas. Apart from that I have difficulty with the
concept of actually living in such cold places. Maybe I should say that if
God wanted us to live in snow and ice he would have given us Polar bear hair
instead of skin.

Oh my word you need to come to Nashville! We had 7 inches and it kept the city paralyzed for 3 days! It's gone now but we are supposed to get flurries later this week. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Dr. Laura and the Sabbath Day

2003-01-18 Thread CHamm56114

I have no doubt that she practices on Saturday. My point is that she doesn't say everyone has to observe Sat. I still say Sat or Sun is just fine. Laura

Laura wrote:
I have no doubt that she keeps a Sabbath Day
but this article doesn't say it is Saturday.

I have no doubt that it is Saturday that she observes as Sabbath. :-) What
other day would it be? She's Jewish, not Christian.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA

Re: [TruthTalk] Broken bones 101, etc.

2003-01-17 Thread CHamm56114

Sorry Marlin, that you have been ill and hope you are on the road to feeling better. They say that flu is nasty. I have heard that hot lemonade or pineapple juice is helpful! Laura

[TruthTalk] TV vs. The Ten Commandments

2003-01-15 Thread CHamm56114

Thought you all might enjoy this

TV vs. THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
by Joseph Walker

Several thousand years ago a man named Moses came down from a mountain
with some guidelines for living he called The Ten Commandments.
Through the years those ten simple rules have proven to be timeless,
and men and women the world over have viewed them as a pattern by which to
govern themselves.
Until now.
Now American television knows better. It isn't just that television
chooses not to advocate strict adherence to the 10 Commandments -- in many
cases it is offering to the public entertainment options that actively work
against 10 Commandment principles. For example:

1. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Is there any more
sacred rite in all of contemporary society than the Super Bowl? Not only
does television genuflect before god-like athletes and coaches for an
entire week of Super Bowl build-up and hyperbole, but it also uses this
spectacle more than any other to worship at the feet of the Almighty
Advertiser.

2. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image." Television is
big on idol worship. From His Airness Michael Jordan to Pop Diva Britney
Spears, TV fawns on its idols with sacramental devotion. And when it runs
out of real idols to adore it creates more of its own through programs like
the appropriately named "American Idol."

3. "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain." While
you could substitute the title for almost any sitcom here, the "Friends"
friends deserve special mention for using the phrase "oh my [deity]" so
often you'd think each episode was part prayer meeting.

4. "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." If there's one thing
television doesn't understand, it's the concept of "holy." While there are
exceptions to the rule like "Touched By An Angel" and "Seventh Heaven," for
the most part television is suspicious of church-goers and casts a
skeptical, suspicious eye at anyone who holds anything sacred.

5. "Honor thy father and thy mother." Years ago it was "Father Knows
Best." Now it's "Meet the Osborns." What's to honor?

6. "Thou shalt not kill" -- unless you can attract big ratings and
critical acclaim for doing it, like "The Sopranos." Then by all means,
whack away.

7. "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Where would "Jerry Springer" be
without infidelity? Or, for that matter, incest? Or transvestitism? Or
sado-masochism? Or... well, just about any gruesome possibility the most
warped mind could possibly concoct?

8. "Thou shalt not steal." Steal. Cheat. Fabricate. Do whatever
it takes to win. No, we're not talking about the NFL again. We're talking
about "Survivor" and other "reality"-based shows that actually have about
as much to do with reality as a Road Runner cartoon.

9. "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." So what
can you say about a television program in which the entire premise is built
upon a lie? That maybe the gold-digging women who are sucked into "Joe
Millionaire's" televised deceit deserve what they get?

10. "Thou shalt not covet." This commandment had to be the first to
go. I mean, you can't do a decent beer commercial without a little
coveting, can you?

Which makes you wonder: What would Moses have thought about beer
commercials? Something tells me he would have taken one look and headed
back up the mountain.
And taken the 10 Commandments with him.

-- Joseph Walker valuespeak @ earthlink.net

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The best thing to happen to mornings since the Sun!

Your morning thought for the day:
Television has proved that people will look
at anything rather than each other.
-- Ann Landers

Heartwarmer Gem, Joe Walker, has just about had it with the programs
on television these days. He is quite outspoken in today's thought
provoking column and compares television fare with the Ten Commandents.
What do you think?

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Re: [TruthTalk] The relationship between Torah observance and eternal life.

2003-01-14 Thread CHamm56114

Good answers Terry, I agree with them. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] The relationship between Torah observance and eternal life.

2003-01-14 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 1/14/2003 10:11:50 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

"to turn and go in another direction" Is repentance going in any other direction? Or is repentance going in the right direction?
 


Turn from something as in sin and self "unless you repent you will all likewise perish" Luke 13:3b

Turn to Someone - trust Christ only "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and He was buried and rose again accorcing to the scriptures" 1 Cor 15:3b-4

These are answers to the word repent from a test I just had to take. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Godly diet

2003-01-13 Thread CHamm56114

I don't know why it does but I recognized it as an old email. Wierd isn't it??? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Science and pork

2003-01-12 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 1/12/2003 1:26:44 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Chiropractors are generally quacks

I'd be careful putting them all into that category. I have had experience with one who was a quack but I also have had experience with one who was a tremendous help. Probably the same in any profession. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Godly diet?

2003-01-07 Thread CHamm56114

I do think that whole grains and avoiding enriched flour is a good idea. We could go crazy with Biblical dietary laws if we tried. Don't you think a lot of their laws concerning food were because they had no way to preserve it and cook it properly? Laura

Re: Possible_Spam Re: [TruthTalk] Godly diet?

2003-01-07 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 1/7/2003 5:29:07 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

But if you want to eat pork, I shall not get in your way. They say you only live once. Enjoy. :-)


What besides pork do you avoid? Just curious. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Godly diet?

2003-01-07 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 1/7/2003 5:29:33 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

What about love? Do we obey the One we love?

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 4:57 PM
 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Godly diet?

I do think that whole grains and avoiding enriched flour is a good idea. We could go crazy with Biblical dietary laws if we tried. Don't you think a lot of their laws concerning food were because they had no way to preserve it and cook it properly? Laura 

Marlin What does your comment have to do with mine? Of course I obey the one I love. I assume you are referring to obedience to God/Christ. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Amish self-sufficiency

2003-01-06 Thread CHamm56114

Marlin, Thanks for sharing the article. I used to live in DE close to Lancaster County and went there often. I have some Amish friends there and am fascinated by their simple lifestyle. Laura

[TruthTalk] - Why I Walked

2003-01-06 Thread CHamm56114

 Click here: Christianity Today Magazine - Why I Walked This is an interesting article by J I Packer. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Godly diet?

2003-01-06 Thread CHamm56114

In a message dated 1/6/2003 9:39:35 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I just watched Dr. Atkins interviewed on Larry King Live about his diet
plan. At this time of the year it seems that everyone has a resolution to
lose weight, and TV commercials and programs seem to talk about nothing
else. One screwy diet after another, all contradicting themselves!


I didn't see the program but am familiar with this diet. In fact it worked for me and I still follow a modified form of Atkins diet. What was your opinion??? I think there is some truth to avoiding refined sugar and excessive carbs. Laura

[TruthTalk] Definition of Christian - long but interesting

The International Standard Bible EncyclopediaCHRISTIAN -Search This Resource

kris'-chan, kris'-ti-an (Christianos):

1. Historicity of Acts 11:26

2. Of Pagan Origin

3. The Christian Attitude to the Name

4. Was "Christian" the Original Form?

5. The Christians and the Empire

6. Social Standing of the Early Christians

7. Christian Self-Designations

LITERATURE

1. Historicity of Acts 11:26:

The word Christian occurs only three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; 26:28; and 1 Peter 4:16). The first passage, Acts 11:26, gives the origin of the term, "The disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." The older generation of critical scholars disputed the historicity of this statement. It was argued that, had the term originated so early, it must have been found far more frequently in the records of early Christianity; sometimes also that the termination -ianus points to a Latin origin. But there is general agreement now that these objections are groundless. The historicity of the Lukan account is upheld not only by Harnack, but by the more radical Knopf in Die Schriften des New Testament, edited by Johannes Weiss. In early imperial times, the adjectival termination -ianos was widely diffused throughout the whole empire. Originally applied to the slaves belonging to the great households, it had passed into regular use to denote the adherents of an individual or a party. A Christian is thus simply an adherent of Christ. The name belongs, as Ramsay says, to the popular slang, as indeed sect and party names generally do. It is only after a considerable interval, and very often under protest, that such names are accepted as self-designations.

2. Of Pagan Origin:

The name, then, did not originate with the Christians themselves. Nor would the Jews have applied it to the followers of Jesus, whose claim to be the Christ they opposed so passionately. They spoke of the Christians as "the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5); perhaps also as "Galileans," a term which the emperor Julian attempted later vainly to revive. The word must have been coined by the heathen population of Antioch, as the church emerged from the synagogue, and a Christianity predominantly Gentiletook its place among the religions of the world.

3. The Christian Attitude to the Name:

Perhaps the earliest occurrence of Christian as a self-designation is in Didache 12:4. In the Apologists and Ignatius on the other hand the word is in regular use. 1Pe simply takes it over from the anti-Christian judicial procedure of the law courts, without in any way implying that the Christians used it among themselves. There is every probability, however, that it was the danger which thus began at an early date to attach to the name which commended it to the Christians themselves as a title of honor . Deissmann (Licht vom Osten, 286) suggests that Christian means slave of Christ, as Caesarian means slave of Caesar. But the word can scarcely have had that fullness of meaning till the Christians themselves had come to be proud of it.

According to tradition, Luke himself belonged to Antioch. In Acts 11:27,28 Codex Bezae (D) reads "There was much rejoicing, and when we had assembled, there stood up," etc. In view of the greater authority now so frequently accorded to the so-called Western text, we cannot summarily dispose of such a reading as an interpolation. If the historian was not only an Antiochene, but a member of the original GentileChristian church, we have the explanation alike of his interest in the origin of the name Chris tian, and of the detailed precision of his information.

4. Was "Christian" the Original Form?:

In all three New Testament passages the uncorrected Codex Sinaiticus reads "Chrestian." We know from many sources that this variant was widely current in the 2nd century. Blass in his edition of Ac not only consistently reads "Chrestian," but conjectures that "Chrestian" is the correct reading in Tacitus (Annals, xv.44), the earliest extra- Biblical testimony to the word. The Tacitus manuscript has since been published in facsimile. This has shown, according to Harnack (Mission and Expansion (English translation), I, 413, 414), that "Chrestian" actually was the original reading, though the name "Christ" is correctly given. Harnack accordingly thinks that the Latin historian intended to correct the popular appellation of circa 64 AD, in the light of his own more accurate knowledge. "The common people used to call them `Chrestians,' but the real name of their founder was Christ." Be this as it may, a confusion between "Christos" (Christos) and the familiar Greek slave name "Chrestos" (chrestos is more intelligible at an early date than late r, when Christianity was better known). There must have been a strong tendency to conform the earlier witnesses to the later, familiar, and etymologically correct, usage. It is all the more remarkable, therefore, that the original scribe of Codex Sinaiticus retains

Re: [TruthTalk] a tree is known by its fruits

In a message dated 12/27/2002 11:51:59 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Laura,

 

Then you are the one who thinks Hitler was a Christian! ROFL!!! Izzy



Not me You can't become a Christian any way other than salvation Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] a tree is known by its fruits

In a message dated 12/27/2002 1:13:52 PM Central Standard Time, GJ Tabor writes:

I'm asking YOU to tell me what religion they are.

Suppose we consider a person who claims to follow Jesus Christ, who joins a
church, is baptized by that church, attends it regularly and all that, but
they are not saved. According to your definition of "Christian," they are
not Christian. What religion do you say that they are? I say they are heathens

When they answer a questionaire, you (and God, according to you) obviously
do not believe that they should answer that they are Christian. What check
box should they check? What religion are they? It is God's business what they check. We can only go by what they are willing to admit. God looks on the heart! I can't do anything about it but pray that God will reveal himself to them. I think you are playing games - at least word games. I would think that the ministerial staff would see evidence of a spiritual walk with Christ before they placed anyone in leadership and if there is no evidence then church is exactly where they need to be. We use the Faith Evangelism method of visitation. Are you familiar with that? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] a tree is known by its fruits

In a message dated 12/27/2002 1:13:52 PM Central Standard Time, GJ Tabor writes:

So, then am I correct in understanding that they are NOT using your
definition of Christian, but some other definition of Christian? Would you
say that your definition of "Christian" is in the minority or majority?


My definition is God's definition and minority or majority doesn't matter. Laura

Fwd: [TruthTalk] The Law

Great post I agree totally
The long and short of it is that there is more than one kind of
revelation. 
Personal revelation is one thing, and I think that if we are walking in
the 
spirit we receive such. But, anytime anyone starts out by saying "God
told 
me...", I become suspicious, especially if what they say God told them 
contradicts the Holy Scriptures.

So, I believe that the HS is active in the world, busy guiding and
working 
with believers, and this may even lead to large results in the world,
but I 
do not believe God is revealing new revelation that is undermining his
own 
church.



---BeginMessage---
Perry, Thanks. But I would still like to have a more concise definition
from you now that you have said there is personal vs other kinds of
revelation, if you don't mind. This might help us to define the kind of
revelation the mormons claim to have. Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles P. Locke
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 1:28 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law

Izzy, I was waiting for you to ask that or a similar question. Thank
you.

Of course the HS has given me information. He has convicted me of my
sin. He 
has shown me my need for a saviour. He has answered prayer by leading me
to 
the right path...all of a personal nature.

But he has never told me that all Christian denominations are an 
abomination. He has never told me to go find some gold tablets and 
translate them. He has never told me to start a new church that is 
contrary to scripture. He has never told me to marry many wives, and
that to 
not do so would damn me. He has never told my wife to shut up about
polygamy 
or He would destory her. He has never revealed to me the need for a 
temple, or told me to steal the secret ceremonies of the Freemasons
and 
use them as endowments in a temple, or led me to make false prophecies.
And 
most of all, He has never revealed to me anything that is contrary to
the 
Holy Scriptures, that would contradict what the Apostles have already 
written in the canon of the NT.

The long and short of it is that there is more than one kind of
revelation. 
Personal revelation is one thing, and I think that if we are walking in
the 
spirit we receive such. But, anytime anyone starts out by saying God
told 
me..., I become suspicious, especially if what they say God told them 
contradicts the Holy Scriptures.

So, I believe that the HS is active in the world, busy guiding and
working 
with believers, and this may even lead to large results in the world,
but I 
do not believe God is revealing new revelation that is undermining his
own 
church.

How does that appeal to you? It validates your experience regarding  
revelation, but still maintains my point about new revelation that
changes 
what has already been written. But it is all revelation, i.e.,
information 
from a supernatural source. (BTW, if JS truly did receive revelation 
(information from a supernatural source), and it contradicts scripture,
then 
whom might we assume is the supernatural force from which this
infomation 
came? Hmmm.)

Perry






From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:36:53 -0600

Perry,

Do you mean to tell me that the Holy Spirit has never given you
information?
Izzy
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles P.
Locke
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 10:05 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law

I don't think I can change the meaning of a word because one person
claims
to have had a revelation.

 From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 09:19:26 -0600
 
 Well, then, I've had that myself more than once. I'm sure I'm not
 unusual for that! Sure you don't want to define your meaning again?
Izzy
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles P.
Locke
 Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 10:39 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
 
 The sense in which I am using revelation is information that comes to
an
 
 individual by divine or supernatural means. A supernatural
revealing
 of
 information.
 
 Perry
  From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
  Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:22:49 -0600
  
  
  Perry,
  Just for clarification, would you care to define revelation?
Izzy
  
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:TruthTalk- I AM
saying
  that 1) no additional
  revelation beyond the NT is necessary relative to the gospel
message
or
  salvation,
  
  
  --
  Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
may
 
  know how you ought to answer every

Re: [TruthTalk] a tree is known by its fruits

In a message dated 12/27/2002 4:16:02 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Is this what you mean when you call them heathens? Are they people who do
not acknowledge God?


No I don't mean that heathens are evil people but I think of them as nonbelievers. I think nonbelievers can be "good" people by society's standards. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?--Part 1

In a message dated 12/26/2002 12:05:08 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Laura, I must have missed something here—could you please refer me to the exact post where someone on TT said they “support Hitler”? Thank you. Izzy



It came from a post of Marlins and I don't still have it on my computer. Laura

Fwd: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?--Part 1

I'm still waiting for Marlin to answer Glenn's original question of What HE (Marlin) thinks of Hitler? He likes to avoid answering questions. Laura

Ladies, TT records indicate that both DavidM and Marlin perceive that Adolph Hitler is (a) Christian (but this is a false perception acc to posted public records/sound WW2 history) 
 
on one hand, this means that neither DavidM nor Marlin wanna 'support' Christianity
 
on the other hand, it also proves, that despite their dizzying rhetoric, Davidm and Marlin are unlike God, they are sinful 'respectors of people'--when they deny this they are liars
 
keep in mind that in TT records DavidM assures DaveH that Joseph Smith/Mormonism is Christian g
 --
 On Thu, 26 Dec 2002 14:52:34 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
Laura, I do have all of Marlinâs past posts on my computer, and in none of them did he state that he supports Hitler. I think that is an untrue, if not unkind, statement. Maybe Marlin would be kind enough to clarify this issue for Laura? Izzy

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 2:04 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?--Part 1

 

In a message dated 12/26/2002 12:05:08 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:






Laura, I must have missed something hereâcould you please refer me to the exact post where someone on TT said they âsupport Hitlerâ? Thank you. Izzy

 

It came from a post of Marlins and I don't still have it on my computer. Laura





---BeginMessage---



Ladies, TT records indicate that both DavidM 
and Marlinperceive that Adolph Hitleris (a) Christian (but this is a 
false perception acc to posted public records/sound WW2 history) 


on one hand, this means that neither DavidM nor 
Marlin wanna 'support' Christianity

on the other hand, it also proves, that despite 
their dizzying 
rhetoric,Davidm and Marlinare unlike God, they aresinful 
'respectors of people'--when they deny this they are liars

keep in mind that in TT records DavidM assures 
DaveH that Joseph Smith/Mormonism is 
Christiang
--
On Thu, 26 Dec 2002 14:52:34 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  
  Laura, I do have all 
  of Marlins past posts on my computer, and in none of them did he state that 
  he supports Hitler. I think that is an untrue, if not unkind, statement. Maybe 
  Marlin would be kind enough to clarify this issue for Laura? 
  Izzy
  
  -Original 
  Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  On Behalf Of 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 2:04 
  PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible 
  Complete?--Part 1
  
  In a message dated 12/26/2002 
  12:05:08 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Laura, I must have 
  missed something herecould you please refer me to the exact post where 
  someone on TT said they support Hitler? Thank you. Izzy
  It 
  came from a post of Marlins and I don't still have it on my computer. 
  Laura
  
---End Message---

Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?--Part 1

In a message dated 12/26/2002 5:22:49 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The source of that idea came from someone who is no longer on TT, who uses Hitlarian propaganda techniques.


Who? I can't remember. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?--Part 1

In a message dated 12/26/2002 9:04:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I think you must realize that most of us (I think)use the term Christian
to mean someone who sincerely follows Christ. You have not given me a
better word to use yet...do you have one?
Izzy
PS In MY book, Hitler was NO Christian!

-Original Message-
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland, Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor
Publishing,
1992, p. 507. )

Hitler may have been a Christian but he had to have fallen! No way could I consider him a Christian either! Laura

Re: [TruthTalk]Hitler - Christian, Atheist, or Neither?

In a message dated 12/26/2002 6:38:34 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

My conclusion is that Hitler, although he was brought up and confirmed as a Catholic, had abandoned Christianity by the time he was in control of Germany. Importantly though, he was 

Thanks Marlin. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] Is the Bible Complete?--Part 1

In a message dated 12/26/2002 7:59:43 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

BTW...I'm off for a week and a half vacation. Soyou can now dump on me too, as I won't be around to defend myself. (However, I'm going to try to get my wife's laptop working for my email while I'm gone. Sobe carefulI might be listening!!!) VBG 


Have a nice vacation. I will be away all of next week but may be able to check email once in awhile. Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] a tree is known by its fruits