Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
You see everything through dark glasses, Perry, sorry I can't help you. Blaine - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 11:25 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: . . . And the 43rd, and the 44th, and etc. Sounds like he was inscribing on metal and decided to skip a few years for brevity's sake--ever tried inscribing on metal plates using primitive tools? I haven't either, but it sounds like a task and a half. I am sure JS doesn't need your thin excuse to cover his mistake. Let's face it, JS just could'nt count. There are many more sensible ways he could have abbreviated the sequence of years if that was his goal. He just could not count. Actually, this is just another instance of solid evidence that the Book of Mormon was written as described in the book--on metal plates, slowly and painfully. There is a lot of solid evidence for evolution, too. But it has never been proven. Come up with all of the possibilities you want, Blaine, regardless of how unlikely they are. I want proof...not a bag of unlikely possibiliteis. How is that even evidence? It now appears that you are inventing evidence out of nothing! We should add this to the growing list of truths It is a mistake, then you make it evidence, now it is truth. This is what I call the Mormon Side Step. Here it is in action, from mistake to truth in three easy steps. that the Book of Mormon is true--Nahom, barley, concrete, etc. which ,when put together begin to hint at a more comprehensive truth. All truth is related, and can eventually be put together to form an interconnected circle of truth. That is what is happening, Perry, and may I suggest you start looking at the forest instead of focusing on each individual tree. Thanks for pointing it out, Perry! As I have said, I do have some more trees for you--when I get time, I will tell you about them. Perry _ Persistent heartburn? Check out Digestive Health Wellness for information and advice. http://gerd.msn.com/default.asp -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
See you on North temple tommorow Blaine?Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You see everything through dark glasses, Perry, sorry I can't help you.Blaine- Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 11:25 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Blaine: . . . And the 43rd, and the 44th, and etc. Sounds like he was inscribing on metal and decided to skip a few years for brevity's sake--ever tried inscribing on metal plates using primitive tools? I haven't either, but it sounds like a task and a half. I am sure JS doesn't need your thin excuse to cover his mistake. Let'sface it, JS just could'nt count. There are many more sensible ways he couldhave abbreviated the sequence of years if that was his goal. He just could not count. Actually, this is just another instance of solid evidence that theBook of Mormon was written as described in the book--on metal plates, slowlyand painfully. There is a lot of "solid evidence" for evolution, too. But it has neverbeen proven. Come up with all of the possibilities you want, Blaine, regardless of how unlikely they are. I want proof...not a bag of unlikely possibiliteis. How is that even evidence? It now appears that you are inventing evidence out of nothing! We should add this to the growing list of truths It is a mistake, then you make it evidence, now it is truth. This is whatI call the Mormon Side Step. Here it is in action, from mistake to truth in three easy steps. that the Book of Mormon is true--Nahom, barley, concrete, etc. which,when put together begin to hint at a more comprehensive truth. All truth is related, and can eventually be put together to form an interconnected circle of truth. That is what is happening, Perry, and may I suggest you start looking at the forest instead of focusing on each individual tree. Thanks for pointing it out, Perry! As I have said, I do have some more trees for you--when I get time, I will tell you about them. Perry _ Persistent heartburn? Check out Digestive Health Wellness forinformation and advice. http://gerd.msn.com/default.asp -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] You see everything through dark glasses, Perry, sorry I can't help you Blaine Is it possible that the reason that it appears that I see everything (everything LDS) through dark glasses is I am looking at dark things? Is it possible that since I have no vested interest in being a Mormon that I am seeing things realistically, and you, who has a vested interest in making Morminsm fit, must try to make weak arguments into strong ones? Blaine, you need to be realistic, now. There is no proof that the book of Mormon is true. Not one shred. There are possible connections to the real world, which are quite weak and to me appear to be a stretch, but no real proof. Not archeological, not historical. I am afraid that there is no way I could put any faith at all in a religion based on book that has absolutely no proof whatsoever that any of it is true. Add the questionable background of it's author (JS), the plaigerisms from the Bible, the existence of manuscripts in the right time frame and subject matter to have used as a basis for the plot of the BoM, the fact that JS used a peep stone for divining for buried treasure and used the same method for purportedly translating the BoM, and last but not least, not having the plates from which it waspurportedly translated, and this menas the LDS are on shakey spiritual ground, Blaine. Perry _ Persistent heartburn? Check out Digestive Health Wellness for information and advice. http://gerd.msn.com/default.asp -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Blaine: . . . And the 43rd, and etc. Sounds like he was inscribing on metal and decided to skip a few years for brevity's sake--ever tried inscribing on metal plates using primitive tools? I haven't either, but it sounds like a task and a half. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:31:55 -0800 (PST)And why does 4 Nephi 1:6 say, "And thus did the thirty and eighth year pass away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had passed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had passed away." Notice also that the country bumpkin who wrotethat passagecould not count...he left out the 40th and 50th years...I guess they did not pass away. Perry MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Blaine: addendum--in blue, scroll down-- - Original Message - From: Blaine Borrowman To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Blaine: . . . And the 43rd, and the 44th, and etc. Sounds like he was inscribing on metal and decided to skip a few years for brevity's sake--ever tried inscribing on metal plates using primitive tools? I haven't either, but it sounds like a task and a half. Actually, this is just another instance of solid evidence that the Book of Mormon was written as described in the book--on metal plates, slowly and painfully. We should add this to the growing list of truthsthat the Book of Mormon is true--Nahom, barley, concrete, etc. which ,when put togetherbegin to hint ata more comprehensive truth. All truth is related,and can eventually be put together to form an interconnected circle of truth.That is what is happening, Perry, and may I suggest you start looking at the forest instead of focusing on each individual tree. Thanks for pointing it out, Perry! As I have said, I do have some more trees for you--when I get time, I will tell you about them. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:31:55 -0800 (PST)And why does 4 Nephi 1:6 say, "And thus did the thirty and eighth year pass away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had passed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had passed away." Notice also that the country bumpkin who wrotethat passagecould not count...he left out the 40th and 50th years...I guess they did not pass away. Perry MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Sounds impossible to me. From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:09:55 -0700 Blaine: . . . And the 43rd, and etc. Sounds like he was inscribing on metal and decided to skip a few years for brevity's sake--ever tried inscribing on metal plates using primitive tools? I haven't either, but it sounds like a task and a half. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:31:55 -0800 (PST) And why does 4 Nephi 1:6 say, And thus did the thirty and eighth year pass away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had passed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had passed away. Notice also that the country bumpkin who wrote that passage could not count...he left out the 40th and 50th years...I guess they did not pass away. Perry -- MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page - FREE download! -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. _ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: . . . And the 43rd, and the 44th, and etc. Sounds like he was inscribing on metal and decided to skip a few years for brevity's sake--ever tried inscribing on metal plates using primitive tools? I haven't either, but it sounds like a task and a half. I am sure JS doesn't need your thin excuse to cover his mistake. Let's face it, JS just could'nt count. There are many more sensible ways he could have abbreviated the sequence of years if that was his goal. He just could not count. Actually, this is just another instance of solid evidence that the Book of Mormon was written as described in the book--on metal plates, slowly and painfully. There is a lot of solid evidence for evolution, too. But it has never been proven. Come up with all of the possibilities you want, Blaine, regardless of how unlikely they are. I want proof...not a bag of unlikely possibiliteis. How is that even evidence? It now appears that you are inventing evidence out of nothing! We should add this to the growing list of truths It is a mistake, then you make it evidence, now it is truth. This is what I call the Mormon Side Step. Here it is in action, from mistake to truth in three easy steps. that the Book of Mormon is true--Nahom, barley, concrete, etc. which ,when put together begin to hint at a more comprehensive truth. All truth is related, and can eventually be put together to form an interconnected circle of truth. That is what is happening, Perry, and may I suggest you start looking at the forest instead of focusing on each individual tree. Thanks for pointing it out, Perry! As I have said, I do have some more trees for you--when I get time, I will tell you about them. Perry _ Persistent heartburn? Check out Digestive Health Wellness for information and advice. http://gerd.msn.com/default.asp -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Blaine: Cement, barley, Nahom, antithetical parallelism--thosefour are just the beginning,andtogether make up a strong case. I jave yet to bring out the big guns. There is more--far more. Do you want me to continue with more? So far, the BoM is batting 100--no misses, all hits. You have to look at the overall picture.The nature of the BoM being an ABRIDGEMENT of a much larger record, makes comparing it to the Bible difficult AND unfair. The writers in the BoM often refer to the limitations placed on them as they wrote--inscribed--in metal, which was a slow and tedious process. They were forced to limit their writings to that which was of a spiritual nature. History per se took a secondary niche relatively speaking. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Finding cement being used in a REAL civilization,is as much a proof as finding a horse in some other civilization. Find ONE city, one coin, one person or event "NAMED" in the BoM.Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Discovery of just ONE senum or ONE shiblon should do it. With many coins in circulation this should be easy as we have many discovered coins from the Bible era. Blaine: I don't know about coins, but what about cement? The Book of Mormon mentions cement being used extensively: Helaman 3:7-11 "The people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement." ". . .they did build houses of cement." ". . . all manner of their buildings," and many of their cities "both of wood and cement." The temple complex at Teotihuacan, north of present day Mexico City, uses cement mucho mas! It dates back to the time indicated in the BoM. After 200 years, it still exceeds present day building code requirements. Cement as a building material is also found in the Valley of Mexico, and in the Maya regions of Southern Mexico, Guatemala, and Honduras. Use of cement is not found in other Indian buildings, only the Maya seem to have used it. It was basically a lime cement, according to the writers of my source article, "Concrete Evidence for the book of Mormon," by Matthew G. Wells, and John C. Welch. More about this can be found in chapter 61 of Reexploring the Book of Mormon, edited by John C. Welch. Thousands of Biblical sites have been discovered. Just one Nephite city will do. Blaine You keep saying one site will do--what about the Nahom site on the Arabian Peninsula? That has yet to be explained away.(:) The alledged discovery of barley proves nothing about the BoM a senum would there is not other explanation for a senum than the BoM. Blaine: The Book of Mormon also tells of thedownfall and ultimate destruction of the entire civilization and legal system of the Nephites, of which the coins and their grain equivalents were a part. I would be very surprised if much survived at all. The final destruction took place less than 400 yrs after the visitation of Jesus Christ to these people. Isn't the Hohokam site the same one later settled by LDS? How do you know the barley was not planted in the mid 1800's? Blaine: That seems to be a way-out possibility to me. The Hohokam Indians raised many crops besides Barley, in a huge area of thousands of acres, as indicated in info below: "Salting" such a huge area with a few barley seeds would be pretty difficult, and time consuming. Those Mormon settlers would have to have been far more motivated than any Mormon settlers I ever heard of--I doubt they even knew barley was a controversial subject. They were more likely preoccupied with surviving in a hostile environment. (:) "The Hohokam utilised extensive and ingenious canal systems to irrigate thousands of acres of their farmland; more than three hundred miles of major canals, and nearly three times that number of smaller canals, have been recorded in the lower Salt River valley alone (Houk 1992: 8). As well as their irrigated crops of maize, lima and tepary beans, squash, tobacco, cotton, barley and amaranth, the Hohokam gathered saguaro cactus fruit, prickly pear pads, cholla
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Blaine, you still have shown no proof. Every single thing you have brought up has other possible meanings, most of which are more likely than the ones you state. Bring out the big guns...but I wanna see some proof on the level of proof that the Bible is true.Many of it's places and names are historically and archeologically VERIFIED...not loosely associated with one of many possible, even if unlikely, outcomes. Biblical prophesy can be shown to have been fulfilled. Does the BoM contain any such verification? Proof, my man, not mere conjecture! Perry From: "Blaine Borrowman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:42:15 -0700 Blaine:Cement, barley, Nahom, antithetical parallelism --those four are just the beginning, and togethermake up a strong case.I jave yet to bring out the big guns.There is more--far more. Do you want me to continue with more?So far, the BoM is batting 100--no misses, all hits.You have to look at the overall picture. The nature of the BoM being an ABRIDGEMENT of a much larger record, makes comparing it to the Bible difficult AND unfair.The writers in the BoM often refer to the limitations placed on them as they wrote--inscribed--in metal, which was a slow and tedious process.They were forced to limit their writings to that which was of a spiritual nature.History per se took a secondary niche relatively speaking. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Finding cement being used in a REAL civilization, is as much a proof as finding a horse in some other civilization. Find ONE city, one coin, one person or event "NAMED" in the BoM. Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Discovery of just ONE senum or ONE shiblon should do it. With many coins in circulation this should be easy as we have many discovered coins from the Bible era. Blaine:I don't know about coins, but what about cement? The Book of Mormonmentions cement being used extensively: Helaman 3:7-11 "The people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement." ". . .they did build houses of cement." "...all manner of their buildings," and many of their cities "both of wood and cement." The temple complex at Teotihuacan, north of present day Mexico City, uses cement mucho mas!It dates back to the time indicated in the BoM.After 200 years, it still exceeds present day building code requirements.Cement as a building material is also found in the Valley of Mexico,and in the Maya regions of Southern Mexico, Guatemala, and Honduras. Use of cement is not found in other Indian buildings, only the Maya seem to have used it.It was basically a lime cement, according to the writers of my source article, "Concrete Evidence for the book of Mormon," byMatthew G. Wells, and John C. Welch.More about this can be found in chapter 61 ofReexploring the Book of Mormon, edited by John C. Welch. Thousands of Biblical sites have been discovered. Just one Nephite city will do. Blaine You keep saying one site will do--what about the Nahom site on the Arabian Peninsula?That has yet to be explained away. (:) The alledged discovery of barley proves nothing about the BoM a senum would there is not other explanation for a senum than the BoM. Blaine:The Book of Mormon also tells of the downfall and ultimate destruction of the entire civilization and legal system of the Nephites, of which the coins and their grain equivalents were a part. I would be very surprised if much survived at all.The final destruction took place less than 400 yrs after the visitation of Jesus Christ to these people. Isn't the Hohokam site the same one later settled by LDS? How do you know the barley was not planted in the mid 1800's? Blaine: That seems to be a way-out possibility to me.The Hohokam Indians raised many crops besides Barley, in a huge area of thousands of acres, as indicated in info below:"Salting" such a huge area with a few barley seeds would be pretty difficult, and time consuming.Those Mormon settlers would have to have been far more motivated than any Mormon settlers I ever heard of--I doubt they even knew barley was a controversial subject.They were more likely preoccupied with surviving in a hostile environment.(:) "The Hohokam utilised extensive and ingenious canal systems to irrigate thousands of acres of their farmland; more than three hundred miles of major canals, and nearly three times that number of smaller canals, have been recorded in the lower Salt River valley alone (Ho
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Jacob 4:1 says, "I cannot write but a little of my words, because of the difficulty of engraving our words upon plates" If it was so difficult to engrave words on the plates, why is Jacob 4:1-3 so wordy? And why does4 Nephi 1:6 say, "And thus did the thirty and eighth year pass away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had passed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had passed away." Jared's wise brother who counseled God in Ether 2-3 could have told the Lord how to more simply say, "59 years had passed away." What does the BOm Testify of? "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ." Title page Book of Mormon "I would inform you that I translated by the gift and power of God, and caused to be written one hundred and sixteen pages, the which I took from the book of Lehi, which was an account abridged from the plates of Lehi, by the hand of Mormon; which said account some person or persons have stolen and kept from me" Preface to the original Book of Mormon. "and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record" Mormon 9:33 "I think this sacred, but if I err, excuse me" 1Nephi 19:6 "written according to my memory" Esther 5:1 "written to the best of my knowledge" Jacob 7:26 Where are the records of Zeniff refered to in Mosiah 25:5 How about the words of Zenoc, Neum and Zenos 1Nephi19:10 Or the written word of Zenos and Zenock Alma 33:3,13,15 Was the word lost? If so why were they not restored during the restoration? For that matter , in the "fullness of the gospel" where are the lost books? "read the words of the prophet zenos" Jacob 5:1 and Jacob 6:1 Where are this prohets words now? Lost? The Journal of Discourses Vol 3 pg. 347 says only 1/3 of the plates translated. Where are the other 2/3 and what is contained in them? Is it important? Faults, errors, according to mans memory knowledge, mistakes, partial accounts, imperfections, lost prophets and lost portions/books, stolen sections, only 1/3 translated; hardly a faith promoting testimony! Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: Cement, barley, Nahom, antithetical parallelism--thosefour are just the beginning,andtogether make up a strong case. I jave yet to bring out the big guns. There is more--far more. Do you want me to continue with more? So far, the BoM is batting 100--no misses, all hits. You have to look at the overall picture.The nature of the BoM being an ABRIDGEMENT of a much larger record, makes comparing it to the Bible difficult AND unfair. The writers in the BoM often refer to the limitations placed on them as they wrote--inscribed--in metal, which was a slow and tedious process. They were forced to limit their writings to that which was of a spiritual nature. History per se took a secondary niche relatively speaking. - Original Message ----- From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Finding cement being used in a REAL civilization,is as much a proof as finding a horse in some other civilization. Find ONE city, one coin, one person or event "NAMED" in the BoM.Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message ----- From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Discovery of just ONE senum or ONE shiblon should do it. With many coins in circulation this should be easy as we have many discovered coins from the Bible era. Blaine: I don't know about coins, but what about cement? The Book of Mormon mentions cement being used extensively: Helaman 3:7-11 "The people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement." ". . .they did build houses of cement." ". . . all manner of their buildings," and many of their cities "both of wood and cement." The temple complex at Teotihuacan, north of present day Mexico City, uses cement mucho mas! It dates back to the time indicated in the BoM. After 200 years, it still exceeds present day building code requirements. Cement as a building material is also found in the Valley of Mexico, and in the Maya regions of Southern Mexico, Guatemala, and Honduras. Use of cement is not found in other Indian buildings, only the Maya seem to have used it. It was basically a lime cement, according to the writers of my source article, "Concrete Evidence for the book of Mormon," by Matthew G. Wells, and John C. Welch. More about this can be found in chapter 61 of Reexploring the Book o
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:31:55 -0800 (PST)And why does 4 Nephi 1:6 say, "And thus did the thirty and eighth year pass away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had passed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had passed away." Notice also that the country bumpkin who wrotethat passagecould not count...he left out the 40th and 50th years...I guess they did not pass away. Perry MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Finding cement being used in a REAL civilization,is as much a proof as finding a horse in some other civilization. Find ONE city, one coin, one person or event "NAMED" in the BoM.Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Discovery of just ONE senum or ONE shiblon should do it. With many coins in circulation this should be easy as we have many discovered coins from the Bible era. Blaine: I don't know about coins, but what about cement? The Book of Mormon mentions cement being used extensively: Helaman 3:7-11 "The people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement." ". . .they did build houses of cement." ". . . all manner of their buildings," and many of their cities "both of wood and cement." The temple complex at Teotihuacan, north of present day Mexico City, uses cement mucho mas! It dates back to the time indicated in the BoM. After 200 years, it still exceeds present day building code requirements. Cement as a building material is also found in the Valley of Mexico, and in the Maya regions of Southern Mexico, Guatemala, and Honduras. Use of cement is not found in other Indian buildings, only the Maya seem to have used it. It was basically a lime cement, according to the writers of my source article, "Concrete Evidence for the book of Mormon," by Matthew G. Wells, and John C. Welch. More about this can be found in chapter 61 of Reexploring the Book of Mormon, edited by John C. Welch. Thousands of Biblical sites have been discovered. Just one Nephite city will do. Blaine You keep saying one site will do--what about the Nahom site on the Arabian Peninsula? That has yet to be explained away.(:) The alledged discovery of barley proves nothing about the BoM a senum would there is not other explanation for a senum than the BoM. Blaine: The Book of Mormon also tells of thedownfall and ultimate destruction of the entire civilization and legal system of the Nephites, of which the coins and their grain equivalents were a part. I would be very surprised if much survived at all. The final destruction took place less than 400 yrs after the visitation of Jesus Christ to these people. Isn't the Hohokam site the same one later settled by LDS? How do you know the barley was not planted in the mid 1800's? Blaine: That seems to be a way-out possibility to me. The Hohokam Indians raised many crops besides Barley, in a huge area of thousands of acres, as indicated in info below: "Salting" such a huge area with a few barley seeds would be pretty difficult, and time consuming. Those Mormon settlers would have to have been far more motivated than any Mormon settlers I ever heard of--I doubt they even knew barley was a controversial subject. They were more likely preoccupied with surviving in a hostile environment. (:) "The Hohokam utilised extensive and ingenious canal systems to irrigate thousands of acres of their farmland; more than three hundred miles of major canals, and nearly three times that number of smaller canals, have been recorded in the lower Salt River valley alone (Houk 1992: 8). As well as their irrigated crops of maize, lima and tepary beans, squash, tobacco, cotton, barley and amaranth, the Hohokam gathered saguaro cactus fruit, prickly pear pads, cholla cactus buds, plantain, mesquite beans and agave from the wild desert. Maize kernels recovered from Hohokam dwelling sites have been dated to 300 B.C., or the time of the earliest Hohokam settlements." More on this subject can be found at: http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/westweb/ancient/hohokam/farming.html Blaine is this where you get your FACTS from FAIR?http://www.fairlds.org/apol/brochures/anach2.pdf Blaine: I have a book titled Reexploring the book of Mormon, edited by John Welch. It has FARMS research in it. See you at conference! Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine,I offered the challenge a week or so ago:"If you cannot find even one proven fact in the BoM that is not from the Bible, then my assertion about it's fictional nature stands."That is interesting about the barley, but it hardly consitutes a proof. There is no linkage between the barley the BoM other than in name only.PerryFrom: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of americaDate: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:54:40 -0700Blaine: Sorry, but I got so far behind, I started deleting posts without reading them--it was the only way I could catch up and get current. (:) I even deleted DavidM's posts, which I am usually careful to read, so don't ! gt;take it personally. In fact, I unsubscribed for a couple of days while I was gone to Richfield to take my son there for a j
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
David Miller wrote: Perry wrote: "If you cannot find even one proven fact in the BoM that is not from the Bible, then my assertion about it's fictional nature stands." That is interesting about the barley, but it hardly consitutes a proof. There is no linkage between the barley the BoM other than in name only. I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for, Perry. If you would accept the lack of barley in the New World as evidence of the Book of Mormon being false, then it seems to me that you should accept its documentation of having existed here in a previous time as evidence of support for the Book of Mormon. Exactly what are you looking for? You know that I think the Book of Mormon is bogus, but I'm trying to understand the nature of the proof you seek. It seems to me that the best approach is not to look for proofs within the book, but to show one falsehood. Blaine, if we could prove one passage as being false, would you accept the notion that the whole book is untrustworthy? That is not to say that it would not contain some truth, but if we know one passage is false, then that means anything it says needs to be tested and the book as a whole cannot be purported as being trustworthy to others. Blaine, would you agree with this approach? DAVEH: Hope you don't mind me interjecting a thought here, DavidM. (I just returned and am now sorting through 1306 emails...Wish I had unsubscribed like Blaine does when he leaves town!) Anyway..Would you suggest unbelievers use your test (to show one falsehood) as a way to determine whether one should believe the Bible to be true or false? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Glad you are back! I was beginning to worry you had hung up on us. Blaine - Original Message - From: Dave To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america David Miller wrote: Perry wrote: "If you cannot find even one proven fact in the BoM that is not from the Bible, then my assertion about it's fictional nature stands." That is interesting about the barley, but it hardly consitutes a proof. There is no linkage between the barley the BoM other than in name only. I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for, Perry. If you would accept the lack of barley in the New World as evidence of the Book of Mormon being false, then it seems to me that you should accept its documentation of having existed here in a previous time as evidence of support for the Book of Mormon. Exactly what are you looking for? You know that I think the Book of Mormon is bogus, but I'm trying to understand the nature of the proof you seek. It seems to me that the best approach is not to look for proofs within the book, but to show one falsehood. Blaine, if we could prove one passage as being false, would you accept the notion that the whole book is untrustworthy? That is not to say that it would not contain some truth, but if we know one passage is false, then that means anything it says needs to be tested and the book as a whole cannot be purported as being trustworthy to others. Blaine, would you agree with this approach? DAVEH: Hope you don't mind me interjecting a thought here, DavidM. (I just returned and am now sorting through 1306 emails...Wish I had unsubscribed like Blaine does when he leaves town!) Anyway..Would you suggest unbelievers use your test (to show one falsehood) as a way to determine whether one should believe the Bible to be true or false? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
For many reasons, the evidence (archaeological and otherwise) for the existence of Book of Mormon places, languages, etc is not as easy to find as is the casewith the Bible.In other words,everyone knows where Jerusalem of the Bible was and is at, few think they know where Zarahemla of the Book of Mormon was at, although there is ongoing research along these lines and several researchers are confident they have located many places named in the Book of Mormon. An exception to this barren landscape is the place called Nahom, mentioned in 1 Nephi 16:34: "Ishmael died, and was buried in a place which was called Nahom." Nahom has been foundIn Lehi's travels through the Saudi Arabian peninsula, he names many locations (Laman, Lemuel, etc). One location, however, seems to already have a place name: Nahom. It is the location where Ishmael is buried and his daughters mourn for him. According to Nephi's description of their travels, this Nahom is located somewhere in southwestern Arabian peninsula. And sure enough, This year (2000) it was announced that an altar was found with the name, "Nahom" on it! It dates back to Lehi's time (600 BC), and it is in the location Nephi described. Such information was not available in Joseph Smith's day. In fact, this area has only been researched in the last few years. For more info on it, see: Gregory Witt's Lehi's Trail website In answer to DaveM's question, " Blaine, if we could prove one passage as being false, would you accept the notion that the whole book is untrustworthy? That is not to say that it would not contain some truth, but if we know one passage is false, then that means anything it says needs to be tested and the book as a whole cannot be purported as being trustworthy to others. Blaine, would you agree with this approach?" I have to answer that since, as DaveM has himself stated, " Math is strictlydeductive (isn't it?) meaning that its conclusions are known to be truewith certainty whereas science and objective theology uses inductiveinference and its conclusions are tentative." I would have to say I doubt I would see any "proof" as being final. However, you are welcome to present such evidence as you feel might be conclusive. Shalom, peace, Blaine - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 9:23 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Perry wrote: "If you cannot find even one proven fact in the BoM that is not from the Bible, then my assertion about it's fictional nature stands." That is interesting about the barley, but it hardly consitutes a proof. There is no linkage between the barley the BoM other than in name only. I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for, Perry. If you would accept the lack of barley in the New World as evidence of the Book of Mormon being false, then it seems to me that you should accept its documentation of having existed here in a previous time as evidence of support for the Book of Mormon. Exactly what are you looking for? You know that I think the Book of Mormon is bogus, but I'm trying to understand the nature of the proof you seek. It seems to me that the best approach is not to look for proofs within the book, but to show one falsehood. Blaine, if we could prove one passage as being false, would you accept the notion that the whole book is untrustworthy? That is not to say that it would not contain some truth, but if we know one passage is false, then that means anything it says needs to be tested and the book as a whole cannot be purported as being trustworthy to others. Blaine, would you agree with this approach? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Blaine: The recent (2000) discovery of the place Nahom in the Arabian Peninsula is strong evidence that the BoM is not a work of fiction.See previous post. Also,the BoMis consistent with known modes of thought, writing techniques, etc., used in ancient times. If it were a work of fiction, it would not have these consistencies at all, or very few of them, no more than by chance alone. Here isone "consistency:" Antithetical Parallelism in the Book of Mormon. Antithetical parallelism is when one idea in a line or stanza is contrasted with an opposite or antithetical idea in a parallel line or stanza. Example: Proverbs 13:9 "The light of the righteous rejoiceth, but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out." Examples from the Book of Mormon: Alma 5:40 "Whatsoever is good, cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil, cometh from the devil. Alma 9:28 "If they have been righteous they shall reap the salvation of their souls, according to the power and deliverance of Jesus Christ. and if they have been evil they shall reap- the damnation of their souls, according to the power and captivation of the devil." Alma 36:21 "Yea, I say unto you my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy." The use of this device in the BoM is, interestingly, exclusive toone writer--Alma. If Joseph Smith had used this device as part of an attempt to make the BoM seem credulous, he would have inserted it throughout the book.Alma's exclusive use of this poetic device isconsistent with the assertionthat the BoM had multiple authors. - Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:32 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america David, You are right. Even one falsehood in the BoM should cast skepticism on the entire book, causing one who believes it is true to question every statement. However, LDS apologists are not about to let that happen. They are very clever at twisting scripture to use as prooftexts for the BoM, and weaving long tales that attempt to connect BoM statements to reality. I have read Reynolds and Nibley, two revered LDS apologists, and it is really quite amusing to see the great leaps they will make to try to justify or "prove" a BoM point. They are desparate men attempting to make a novel they believe to be true fit reality. Their endeavors, while inventive, are fruitless. However, I realized last week that, other than items that were already known in the time of Joseph Smith, such as facts stated from the Bible or other historical facts that were known at the time of it's writing, every other statement in the BoM is fiction. So, I offered to Blaine the challenge to produce even one fact from the BoM, other than things that were already known at the time of JS, that can be proven. I feel confident that the challenge cannot be met. He offered the evidence of barley. Well, that is not proof. It is a possibility, but there are many other possibilities, too. A "possibility" does not constitute a "proof". He offered the evidence of iron. Again, that is a "possibility", but does not constitute a "proof". You ask exactly what I am looking for. Here are some examples that would constitute a proof to me. 1) If gold plates inscribed in "reformed Egyptian" were found buried in a hill in New York that were shown scientifically to be of ancient origin, and were translated by independent Egyptologists, and were found to contain the text of the BoM, (including the parts that are EXACT duplicates of the Bible). Now, that would be proof of a monumental nature that some of the facts in the BoM are true. 2) If an extremely large and advanced ancient city in America was excavated, and the hall of records was located, and verifiably ancient dated records were found which contains the names of individuals that are in the BoM. Again, monumental proof that the BoM contains a fact or two. Okay, those last two would be a Mormon's dream come true, and not very likely, but: 3) How about historical evidence that Jared existed. He was promised by God that his seed would be multiplied greater than Abraham's. Hey, I know a lot of Abraham's seed, but have never met a Jaredite. Neither has anyone else! If they were a greater nation than Abraham produced THEY SHOULD BE EVERYWWHERE! How about a historical document that gives a lineage of Jared? How about historical evidence that ANYONE named in the BoM existed! The point is, the BoM is total fiction (except for facts known at the time that the BoM was written by JS, such as the passages that are exac
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Blaine, I examined the Lehi Trail website and read the article you referenced. I must say, the connection between NHM and Nahom is certainly a possibility. That assertion is not made in the article, though, and statements that could assert such are expressed with indefinites, like felt confident , it seems increasingly likely, may be directly related, is likely, may well, and It remains possible. Also, the article states, the earliest known reference to NHM (usually given as NiHM, NeHeM, NaHaM etc) dated to about the First Century AD, indicating that several vowel combinations have been found, Nahom not being only one of them. (Of course, I understand the problem of vowels, transliteration, and pronunciation of early names.) I must say, this lends hope that some proof of a fact from the BoM may someday be found, but this article, while representing a possible outcome, is not proof. Do you agree? Perry From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:16:33 -0700 For many reasons, the evidence (archaeological and otherwise) for the existence of Book of Mormon places, languages, etc is not as easy to find as is the case with the Bible. In other words, everyone knows where Jerusalem of the Bible was and is at, few think they know where Zarahemla of the Book of Mormon was at, although there is ongoing research along these lines and several researchers are confident they have located many places named in the Book of Mormon. An exception to this barren landscape is the place called Nahom, mentioned in 1 Nephi 16:34: Ishmael died, and was buried in a place which was called Nahom. Nahom has been found In Lehi's travels through the Saudi Arabian peninsula, he names many locations (Laman, Lemuel, etc). One location, however, seems to already have a place name: Nahom. It is the location where Ishmael is buried and his daughters mourn for him. According to Nephi's description of their travels, this Nahom is located somewhere in southwestern Arabian peninsula. And sure enough, This year (2000) it was announced that an altar was found with the name, Nahom on it! It dates back to Lehi's time (600 BC), and it is in the location Nephi described. Such information was not available in Joseph Smith's day. In fact, this area has only been researched in the last few years. For more info on it, see: Gregory Witt's Lehi's Trail website In answer to DaveM's question, Blaine, if we could prove one passage as being false, would you accept the notion that the whole book is untrustworthy? That is not to say that it would not contain some truth, but if we know one passage is false, then that means anything it says needs to be tested and the book as a whole cannot be purported as being trustworthy to others. Blaine, would you agree with this approach? I have to answer that since, as DaveM has himself stated, Math is strictly deductive (isn't it?) meaning that its conclusions are known to be true with certainty whereas science and objective theology uses inductive inference and its conclusions are tentative. I would have to say I doubt I would see any proof as being final. However, you are welcome to present such evidence as you feel might be conclusive. Shalom, peace, Blaine - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 9:23 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Perry wrote: If you cannot find even one proven fact in the BoM that is not from the Bible, then my assertion about it's fictional nature stands. That is interesting about the barley, but it hardly consitutes a proof. There is no linkage between the barley the BoM other than in name only. I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for, Perry. If you would accept the lack of barley in the New World as evidence of the Book of Mormon being false, then it seems to me that you should accept its documentation of having existed here in a previous time as evidence of support for the Book of Mormon. Exactly what are you looking for? You know that I think the Book of Mormon is bogus, but I'm trying to understand the nature of the proof you seek. It seems to me that the best approach is not to look for proofs within the book, but to show one falsehood. Blaine, if we could prove one passage as being false, would you accept the notion that the whole book is untrustworthy? That is not to say that it would not contain some truth, but if we know one passage is false, then that means anything it says needs to be tested and the book as a whole cannot be purported as being trustworthy to others. Blaine, would you agree with this approach? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Blaine: It has that quality of becoming musty
and moldy if not eaten right away. Luckily, the Lord was able to preserve
a few kernals in Phoenix.
- Original Message -
From:
Kevin
Deegan
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 6:10
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost
sheep of america
By BoM accounts Barley should be discovered
everywhereBlaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Blaine: Sorry, but
I got so far behind, I started deleting posts without reading them--it was
the only way I could catch up and get current. (:) I even
deleted DavidM's posts, which I am usually careful to read, so don't take it
personally. In fact, I unsubscribed for a couple of days while I was
gone to Richfield to take my son there for a job. But thanks for
letting me know the challenge is there--who put it
there?
Just to remind you--maybe
you didn't read it, or you dismissed it as being unimportant--I have already
posted on the discovery of barley in the Americas before Columbus'
time.The December 1983 issue of the Science 83 reported the
discovery in Phoenix, Arizona by professional archaeologists. Prior to
its discovery, barley was thought to be an old world crop only, and was
widely used by anti-BoM advocates as proof the BoM was a fake.
It is of fundamental
importance, since barley has long been associated with the law of Moses as a
wave offering during the Passover, which is held during Abib, the
first month mentioned in the Bible, which means "the
greening,"referring to the greening of the barley crop in the early
Spring. This cropwasplanted in the fall as a dry
crop. It depended on Spring moisture to bring it up early, and was the
first of the grain crops to show maturity. When it was used as a wave
offering, it signified Jesus having barely attained maturity (age 33)
when he was crucified. The same with the Pascal lamb, which was to be
a lamb or goat of the FIRST YEAR.
For Lehi and his group to
have left Jerusalem in 600 B.C. without barley would have seriously
compromised BoM credibility. The BoM references to
barleyare found in:
Mosiah
7:22
"and one half of our
corn, and our BARLEY, and even all our grain of every
kind."
Mosiah,
9:9
"And we began to till the
ground with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of
BARLEY, . . .
Alma 11:7
"A senum of silver was
equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of BARLEY, and also for
a measure for every kind of grain."
Alma
11:15
"A shiblon
is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of
BARLEY."
- Original Message -
From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:43
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of
america
Blaine, Just a reminder that there
is a challenge on the table for you to present one provable, or
proven, fact from the BoM that did not come from the Bible. Maybe
you have not gotten to it yet in your catching up on TT posts.
Perry From: "Blaine
Borrowman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of
america Date:! Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:19:54 -0700
Blaine: The following from the Book of
Mormon--submitted by Kevin, thank you Kevin-- sounds
well-reasoned and plausible. I find it far more
believable than the tortuous explanation Kevin gives trying to convince
us Jesus was referring to the GENTILES when he said "OTHER
SHEEP I HAVE WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD." Note again
Jesus' response when he was accosted by the Gentile woman--a
Canaanite--to come heal her daughter. He said, "I am not
sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." Yet He later
revealed to Peter that the gospel was to be preached to the
Gentiles by the Apostles, and that the Holy Ghost was to be the
instrument of conversion--not his voice. NO Gentile ever
heard his voice, no Gentile was ever a witness to his ministry
on ! earth, except by default as they may have been present as
he ministered to the House of Israel ONLY. This was done
to fulfill the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and later to
Moses and other Israelite prophets.
http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/15 3 Nephi 15:14-24 And not
at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should
tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem. Neither at any time
hath the Father given me commandment that I
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
The BoM may very well have had multiple writers...JS, Soloman Spalding, Satan, parts copied from the KJV. Who knows where else he may haved gleaned literature to include in his work. I can also see one who is familiar with and trying to write in the style of KJV Bible copying it's style, even while being ignorant of any writing modes they were copying. Or even paraphrasing existing work and unknowingly eliminating a certain literary style. Many possibilities, Blaine. No proof. Perry From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:53:57 -0700 Blaine: The recent (2000) discovery of the place Nahom in the Arabian Peninsula is strong evidence that the BoM is not a work of fiction. See previous post. Also, the BoM is consistent with known modes of thought, writing techniques, etc., used in ancient times.If it were a work of fiction, it would not have these consistencies at all, or very few of them, no more than by chance alone. Here is one consistency: Antithetical Parallelism in the Book of Mormon. Antithetical parallelism is when one idea in a line or stanza is contrasted with an opposite or antithetical idea in a parallel line or stanza. Example: Proverbs 13:9 The light of the righteous rejoiceth, but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out. Examples from the Book of Mormon: Alma 5:40 Whatsoever is good, cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil, cometh from the devil. Alma 9:28 If they have been righteous they shall reap the salvation of their souls, according to the power and deliverance of Jesus Christ. and if they have been evil they shall reap- the damnation of their souls, according to the power and captivation of the devil. Alma 36:21 Yea, I say unto you my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy. The use of this device in the BoM is, interestingly, exclusive to one writer--Alma. If Joseph Smith had used this device as part of an attempt to make the BoM seem credulous, he would have inserted it throughout the book. Alma's exclusive use of this poetic device is consistent with the assertion that the BoM had multiple authors. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:32 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america David, You are right. Even one falsehood in the BoM should cast skepticism on the entire book, causing one who believes it is true to question every statement. However, LDS apologists are not about to let that happen. They are very clever at twisting scripture to use as prooftexts for the BoM, and weaving long tales that attempt to connect BoM statements to reality. I have read Reynolds and Nibley, two revered LDS apologists, and it is really quite amusing to see the great leaps they will make to try to justify or prove a BoM point. They are desparate men attempting to make a novel they believe to be true fit reality. Their endeavors, while inventive, are fruitless. However, I realized last week that, other than items that were already known in the time of Joseph Smith, such as facts stated from the Bible or other historical facts that were known at the time of it's writing, every other statement in the BoM is fiction. So, I offered to Blaine the challenge to produce even one fact from the BoM, other than things that were already known at the time of JS, that can be proven. I feel confident that the challenge cannot be met. He offered the evidence of barley. Well, that is not proof. It is a possibility, but there are many other possibilities, too. A possibility does not constitute a proof. He offered the evidence of iron. Again, that is a possibility, but does not constitute a proof. You ask exactly what I am looking for. Here are some examples that would constitute a proof to me. 1) If gold plates inscribed in reformed Egyptian were found buried in a hill in New York that were shown scientifically to be of ancient origin, and were translated by independent Egyptologists, and were found to contain the text of the BoM, (including the parts that are EXACT duplicates of the Bible). Now, that would be proof of a monumental nature that some of the facts in the BoM are true. 2) If an extremely large and advanced ancient city in America was excavated, and the hall of records was located, and verifiably ancient dated records were found which contains the names of individuals that are in the BoM. Again, monumental proof that the BoM contains a fact or two. Okay, those last two would be a Mormon's dream come true, and not very likely, but: 3) How about historical evidence that Jared existed. He was promised
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
- Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Discovery of just ONE senum or ONE shiblon should do it. With many coins in circulation this should be easy as we have many discovered coins from the Bible era. Blaine: I don't know about coins, but what about cement? The Book of Mormon mentions cement being used extensively: Helaman 3:7-11 "The people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement." ". . .they did build houses of cement." ". . . all manner of their buildings," and many of their cities "both of wood and cement." The temple complex at Teotihuacan, north of present day Mexico City, uses cement mucho mas! It dates back to the time indicated in the BoM. After 200 years, it still exceeds present day building code requirements. Cement as a building material is also found in the Valley of Mexico, and in the Maya regions of Southern Mexico, Guatemala, and Honduras. Use of cement is not found in other Indian buildings, only the Maya seem to have used it. It was basically a lime cement, according to the writers of my source article, "Concrete Evidence for the book of Mormon," by Matthew G. Wells, and John C. Welch. More about this can be found in chapter 61 of Reexploring the Book of Mormon, edited by John C. Welch. Thousands of Biblical sites have been discovered. Just one Nephite city will do. Blaine You keep saying one site will do--what about the Nahom site on the Arabian Peninsula? That has yet to be explained away.(:) The alledged discovery of barley proves nothing about the BoM a senum would there is not other explanation for a senum than the BoM. Blaine: The Book of Mormon also tells of thedownfall and ultimate destruction of the entire civilization and legal system of the Nephites, of which the coins and their grain equivalents were a part. I would be very surprised if much survived at all. The final destruction took place less than 400 yrs after the visitation of Jesus Christ to these people. Isn't the Hohokam site the same one later settled by LDS? How do you know the barley was not planted in the mid 1800's? Blaine: That seems to be a way-out possibility to me. The Hohokam Indians raised many crops besides Barley, in a huge area of thousands of acres, as indicated in info below: "Salting" such a huge area with a few barley seeds would be pretty difficult, and time consuming. Those Mormon settlers would have to have been far more motivated than any Mormon settlers I ever heard of--I doubt they even knew barley was a controversial subject. They were more likely preoccupied with surviving in a hostile environment. (:) "The Hohokam utilised extensive and ingenious canal systems to irrigate thousands of acres of their farmland; more than three hundred miles of major canals, and nearly three times that number of smaller canals, have been recorded in the lower Salt River valley alone (Houk 1992: 8). As well as their irrigated crops of maize, lima and tepary beans, squash, tobacco, cotton, barley and amaranth, the Hohokam gathered saguaro cactus fruit, prickly pear pads, cholla cactus buds, plantain, mesquite beans and agave from the wild desert. Maize kernels recovered from Hohokam dwelling sites have been dated to 300 B.C., or the time of the earliest Hohokam settlements." More on this subject can be found at: http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/westweb/ancient/hohokam/farming.html Blaine is this where you get your FACTS from FAIR?http://www.fairlds.org/apol/brochures/anach2.pdf Blaine: I have a book titled Reexploring the book of Mormon, edited by John Welch. It has FARMS research in it. See you at conference! Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine,I offered the challenge a week or so ago:"If you cannot find even one proven fact in the BoM that is not from the Bible, then my assertion about it's fictional nature stands."That is interesting about the barley, but it hardly consitutes a proof. There is no linkage between the barley the BoM other than in name only.PerryFrom: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of americaDate: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:54:40 -0700Blaine: Sorry, but I got so far behind, I started deleting posts without reading them--it was the only way I could catch up and get current. (:) I even deleted DavidM's posts, which I am usually careful to read, so don't ! gt;take it personally. In fact,
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Discovery of just ONE senum or ONE shiblon should do it. With many coins in circulation this should be easy as we have many discovered coins from the Bible era. Thousands of Biblical sites have been discovered. Just one Nephite city will do. The alledged discovery of barley proves nothing about the BoM a senum would there is not other explanation for a senum than the BoM. Isn't the Hohokam site the same one later settled by LDS? How do you know the barley was not planted in the mid 1800's? Blaine is this where you get your FACTS from FAIR?http://www.fairlds.org/apol/brochures/anach2.pdf See you at conference! Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine,I offered the challenge a week or so ago:"If you cannot find even one proven fact in the BoM that is not from the Bible, then my assertion about it's fictional nature stands."That is interesting about the barley, but it hardly consitutes a proof. There is no linkage between the barley the BoM other than in name only.PerryFrom: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of americaDate: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:54:40 -0700Blaine: Sorry, but I got so far behind, I started deleting posts without reading them--it was the only way I could catch up and get current. (:) I even deleted DavidM's posts, which I am usually careful to read, so don't take it personally. In fact, I unsubscribed for a couple of days while I was gone to Richfield to take my son there for a job. But thanks for letting me know the challenge is there--who put it there?Just to remind you--maybe you didn't read it, or you dismissed it as being unimportant--I have already posted on the discovery of barley in the Americas before Columbus' time. The December 1983 issue of the Science 83 reported the discovery in Phoenix, Arizona by professional archaeologists. Prior to its discovery, barley was thought to be an old world crop only, and was widely used by anti-BoM advocates as proof the BoM was a fake.It is of fundamental importance, since barley has long been associated with the law of Moses as a wave offering during the Passover, which is held during Abib, the first month mentioned in the Bible, which means "the greening," referring to the greening of the barley crop in the early Spring. This crop was planted in the fall as a dry crop. It depended on Spring moisture to bring it up early, and was the first of the grain crops to show maturity. When it was used as a wave offering, it signified Jesus having barely attained maturity (age 33) when he was crucified. The same with the Pascal lamb, which was to be a lamb or goat of the FIRST YEAR.For Lehi and his group to have left Jerusalem in 600 B.C. without barley would have seriously compromised BoM credibility. The BoM references to barley are found in:Mosiah 7:22"and one half of our corn, and our BARLEY, and even all our grain of every kind."Mosiah, 9:9"And we began to till the ground with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of BARLEY, . . .Alma 11:7"A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of BARLEY, and also for a measure for every kind of grain."Alma 11:15"A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of BARLEY."- Original Message -From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:43 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Blaine, Just a reminder that there is a challenge on the table for you to present one provable, or proven, fact from the BoM that did not come from the Bible. Maybe you have not gotten to it yet in your catching up on TT posts. Perry From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:19:54 -0700Blaine: The following from the Book of Mormon--submitted by Kevin, thank you Kevin-- sounds well-reasoned and plausible. I find it far more believable than the tortuous explanation Kevin gives trying to convince us Jesus was referring to the GENTILES when he said "OTHER SHEEP I HAVE WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD." Note again Jesus' response when he was accosted by the Gentile woman--a Canaanite--to come heal her daughter. He said, "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." Yet He later revealed to Peter that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles by the Apostles, and that the Holy Ghost was to be the instrument of conversion--not his voice. NO Gentile ever heard his voice, no Gentile was ever a witness to his ministry on earth, except by default as they may have been present as he ministered to the House of Israel ONLY. This was done to fulfill the promi
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
By BoM accounts Barley should be discovered everywhereBlaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: Sorry, but I got so far behind, I started deleting posts without reading them--it was the only way I could catch up and get current. (:) I even deleted DavidM's posts, which I am usually careful to read, so don't take it personally. In fact, I unsubscribed for a couple of days while I was gone to Richfield to take my son there for a job. But thanks for letting me know the challenge is there--who put it there? Just to remind you--maybe you didn't read it, or you dismissed it as being unimportant--I have already posted on the discovery of barley in the Americas before Columbus' time.The December 1983 issue of the Science 83 reported the discovery in Phoenix, Arizona by professional archaeologists. Prior to its discovery, barley was thought to be an old world crop only, and was widely used by anti-BoM advocates as proof the BoM was a fake. It is of fundamental importance, since barley has long been associated with the law of Moses as a wave offering during the Passover, which is held during Abib, the first month mentioned in the Bible, which means "the greening,"referring to the greening of the barley crop in the early Spring. This cropwasplanted in the fall as a dry crop. It depended on Spring moisture to bring it up early, and was the first of the grain crops to show maturity. When it was used as a wave offering, it signified Jesus having barely attained maturity (age 33) when he was crucified. The same with the Pascal lamb, which was to be a lamb or goat of the FIRST YEAR. For Lehi and his group to have left Jerusalem in 600 B.C. without barley would have seriously compromised BoM credibility. The BoM references to barleyare found in: Mosiah 7:22 "and one half of our corn, and our BARLEY, and even all our grain of every kind." Mosiah, 9:9 "And we began to till the ground with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of BARLEY, . . . Alma 11:7 "A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of BARLEY, and also for a measure for every kind of grain." Alma 11:15 "A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of BARLEY." - Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Blaine, Just a reminder that there is a challenge on the table for you to present one provable, or proven, fact from the BoM that did not come from the Bible. Maybe you have not gotten to it yet in your catching up on TT posts. Perry From: "Blaine Borrowman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:19:54 -0700 Blaine: The following from the Book of Mormon--submitted by Kevin, thank you Kevin-- sounds well-reasoned and plausible. I find it far more believable than the tortuous explanation Kevin gives trying to convince us Jesus was referring to the GENTILES when he said "OTHER SHEEP I HAVE WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD." Note again Jesus' response when he was accosted by the Gentile woman--a Canaanite--to come heal her daughter. He said, "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." Yet He later revealed to Peter that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles by the Apostles, and that the Holy Ghost was to be the instrument of conversion--not his voice. NO Gentile ever heard his voice, no Gentile was ever a witness to his ministry on earth, except by default as they may have been present as he ministered to the House of Israel ONLY. This was done to fulfill the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and later to Moses and other Israelite prophets. http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/15 3 Nephi 15:14-24 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem. Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land. This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them: That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them. But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you. And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Don't hold your breath, waiting.Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine,Just a reminder that there is a challenge on the table for you to present one provable, or proven, fact from the BoM that did not come from the Bible. Maybe you have not gotten to it yet in your catching up on TT posts.PerryFrom: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:19:54 -0700Blaine: The following from the Book of Mormon--submitted by Kevin, thank you Kevin-- sounds well-reasoned and plausible. I find it far more believable than the tortuous explanation Kevin gives trying to convince us Jesus was referring to the GENTILES when he said "OTHER SHEEP I HAVE WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD." Note again Jesus' response when he was accosted by the Gentile woman--a Canaanite--to come heal her daughter. He said, "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." Yet He later revealed to Peter that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles by the Apostles, and that the Holy Ghost was to be the instrument of conversion--not his voice. NO Gentile ever heard his voice, no Gentile was ever a witness to his ministry on earth, except by default as they may have been present as he ministered to the House of Israel ONLY. This was done to fulfill the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and later to Moses and other Israelite prophets.http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/15 3 Nephi 15:14-24 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem. Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land. This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them: That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them. But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you. And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them. And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching. And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice-that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost. But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time._Get reliable access on MSN 9 Dial-up. 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time offer) http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialuppgmarket=en-usST=1/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Blaine: Sorry, but I got so far behind, I started deleting posts without reading them--it was the only way I could catch up and get current. (:) I even deleted DavidM's posts, which I am usually careful to read, so don't take it personally. In fact, I unsubscribed for a couple of days while I was gone to Richfield to take my son there for a job. But thanks for letting me know the challenge is there--who put it there? Just to remind you--maybe you didn't read it, or you dismissed it as being unimportant--I have already posted on the discovery of barley in the Americas before Columbus' time.The December 1983 issue of the Science 83 reported the discovery in Phoenix, Arizona by professional archaeologists. Prior to its discovery, barley was thought to be an old world crop only, and was widely used by anti-BoM advocates as proof the BoM was a fake. It is of fundamental importance, since barley has long been associated with the law of Moses as a wave offering during the Passover, which is held during Abib, the first month mentioned in the Bible, which means "the greening,"referring to the greening of the barley crop in the early Spring. This cropwasplanted in the fall as a dry crop. It depended on Spring moisture to bring it up early, and was the first of the grain crops to show maturity. When it was used as a wave offering, it signified Jesus having barely attained maturity (age 33) when he was crucified. The same with the Pascal lamb, which was to be a lamb or goat of the FIRST YEAR. For Lehi and his group to have left Jerusalem in 600 B.C. without barley would have seriously compromised BoM credibility. The BoM references to barleyare found in: Mosiah 7:22 "and one half of our corn, and our BARLEY, and even all our grain of every kind." Mosiah, 9:9 "And we began to till the ground with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of BARLEY, . . . Alma 11:7 "A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of BARLEY, and also for a measure for every kind of grain." Alma 11:15 "A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of BARLEY." - Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Blaine, Just a reminder that there is a challenge on the table for you to present one provable, or proven, fact from the BoM that did not come from the Bible. Maybe you have not gotten to it yet in your catching up on TT posts. Perry From: "Blaine Borrowman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:19:54 -0700 Blaine: The following from the Book of Mormon--submitted by Kevin, thank you Kevin-- sounds well-reasoned and plausible. I find it far more believable than the tortuous explanation Kevin gives trying to convince us Jesus was referring to the GENTILES when he said "OTHER SHEEP I HAVE WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD." Note again Jesus' response when he was accosted by the Gentile woman--a Canaanite--to come heal her daughter. He said, "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." Yet He later revealed to Peter that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles by the Apostles, and that the Holy Ghost was to be the instrument of conversion--not his voice. NO Gentile ever heard his voice, no Gentile was ever a witness to his ministry on earth, except by default as they may have been present as he ministered to the House of Israel ONLY. This was done to fulfill the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and later to Moses and other Israelite prophets. http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/15 3 Nephi 15:14-24 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem. Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land. This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them: That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them. But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you. And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Blaine, I offered the challenge a week or so ago: If you cannot find even one proven fact in the BoM that is not from the Bible, then my assertion about it's fictional nature stands. That is interesting about the barley, but it hardly consitutes a proof. There is no linkage between the barley the BoM other than in name only. Perry From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:54:40 -0700 Blaine: Sorry, but I got so far behind, I started deleting posts without reading them--it was the only way I could catch up and get current. (:) I even deleted DavidM's posts, which I am usually careful to read, so don't take it personally. In fact, I unsubscribed for a couple of days while I was gone to Richfield to take my son there for a job. But thanks for letting me know the challenge is there--who put it there? Just to remind you--maybe you didn't read it, or you dismissed it as being unimportant--I have already posted on the discovery of barley in the Americas before Columbus' time. The December 1983 issue of the Science 83 reported the discovery in Phoenix, Arizona by professional archaeologists. Prior to its discovery, barley was thought to be an old world crop only, and was widely used by anti-BoM advocates as proof the BoM was a fake. It is of fundamental importance, since barley has long been associated with the law of Moses as a wave offering during the Passover, which is held during Abib, the first month mentioned in the Bible, which means the greening, referring to the greening of the barley crop in the early Spring. This crop was planted in the fall as a dry crop. It depended on Spring moisture to bring it up early, and was the first of the grain crops to show maturity. When it was used as a wave offering, it signified Jesus having barely attained maturity (age 33) when he was crucified. The same with the Pascal lamb, which was to be a lamb or goat of the FIRST YEAR. For Lehi and his group to have left Jerusalem in 600 B.C. without barley would have seriously compromised BoM credibility. The BoM references to barley are found in: Mosiah 7:22 and one half of our corn, and our BARLEY, and even all our grain of every kind. Mosiah, 9:9 And we began to till the ground with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of BARLEY, . . . Alma 11:7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of BARLEY, and also for a measure for every kind of grain. Alma 11:15 A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of BARLEY. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Blaine, Just a reminder that there is a challenge on the table for you to present one provable, or proven, fact from the BoM that did not come from the Bible. Maybe you have not gotten to it yet in your catching up on TT posts. Perry From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:19:54 -0700 Blaine: The following from the Book of Mormon--submitted by Kevin, thank you Kevin-- sounds well-reasoned and plausible. I find it far more believable than the tortuous explanation Kevin gives trying to convince us Jesus was referring to the GENTILES when he said OTHER SHEEP I HAVE WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD. Note again Jesus' response when he was accosted by the Gentile woman--a Canaanite--to come heal her daughter. He said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Yet He later revealed to Peter that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles by the Apostles, and that the Holy Ghost was to be the instrument of conversion--not his voice. NO Gentile ever heard his voice, no Gentile was ever a witness to his ministry on earth, except by default as they may have been present as he ministered to the House of Israel ONLY. This was done to fulfill the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and later to Moses and other Israelite prophets. http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/15 3 Nephi 15:14-24 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem. Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land. This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them: That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood
RE: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Perry wrote: If you cannot find even one proven fact in the BoM that is not from the Bible, then my assertion about it's fictional nature stands. That is interesting about the barley, but it hardly consitutes a proof. There is no linkage between the barley the BoM other than in name only. I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for, Perry. If you would accept the lack of barley in the New World as evidence of the Book of Mormon being false, then it seems to me that you should accept its documentation of having existed here in a previous time as evidence of support for the Book of Mormon. Exactly what are you looking for? You know that I think the Book of Mormon is bogus, but I'm trying to understand the nature of the proof you seek. It seems to me that the best approach is not to look for proofs within the book, but to show one falsehood. Blaine, if we could prove one passage as being false, would you accept the notion that the whole book is untrustworthy? That is not to say that it would not contain some truth, but if we know one passage is false, then that means anything it says needs to be tested and the book as a whole cannot be purported as being trustworthy to others. Blaine, would you agree with this approach? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
David, You are right. Even one falsehood in the BoM should cast skepticism on the entire book, causing one who believes it is true to question every statement. However, LDS apologists are not about to let that happen. They are very clever at twisting scripture to use as prooftexts for the BoM, and weaving long tales that attempt to connect BoM statements to reality. I have read Reynolds and Nibley, two revered LDS apologists, and it is really quite amusing to see the great leaps they will make to try to justify or prove a BoM point. They are desparate men attempting to make a novel they believe to be true fit reality. Their endeavors, while inventive, are fruitless. However, I realized last week that, other than items that were already known in the time of Joseph Smith, such as facts stated from the Bible or other historical facts that were known at the time of it's writing, every other statement in the BoM is fiction. So, I offered to Blaine the challenge to produce even one fact from the BoM, other than things that were already known at the time of JS, that can be proven. I feel confident that the challenge cannot be met. He offered the evidence of barley. Well, that is not proof. It is a possibility, but there are many other possibilities, too. A possibility does not constitute a proof. He offered the evidence of iron. Again, that is a possibility, but does not constitute a proof. You ask exactly what I am looking for. Here are some examples that would constitute a proof to me. 1) If gold plates inscribed in reformed Egyptian were found buried in a hill in New York that were shown scientifically to be of ancient origin, and were translated by independent Egyptologists, and were found to contain the text of the BoM, (including the parts that are EXACT duplicates of the Bible). Now, that would be proof of a monumental nature that some of the facts in the BoM are true. 2) If an extremely large and advanced ancient city in America was excavated, and the hall of records was located, and verifiably ancient dated records were found which contains the names of individuals that are in the BoM. Again, monumental proof that the BoM contains a fact or two. Okay, those last two would be a Mormon's dream come true, and not very likely, but: 3) How about historical evidence that Jared existed. He was promised by God that his seed would be multiplied greater than Abraham's. Hey, I know a lot of Abraham's seed, but have never met a Jaredite. Neither has anyone else! If they were a greater nation than Abraham produced THEY SHOULD BE EVERYWWHERE! How about a historical document that gives a lineage of Jared? How about historical evidence that ANYONE named in the BoM existed! The point is, the BoM is total fiction (except for facts known at the time that the BoM was written by JS, such as the passages that are exact copies of passages from the Bible), and this is demonstrated by the fact that there is not ONE shred of proof that ANY of it is true. Zero. If Blaine believes the BoM to be true, then let him produce proof. Not evidence, not anecdotes, not possibilities, but proof. The ultimate question is how can anyone put any faith at all in a book in which not ONE shred of truth can be found? If ONE falsehood could be found, the LDS apologists would just get their looms out and begin weaving an intricate but possible tale to cover it. Not proof, mind you, but a tale to use to say, See? It IS possible that that this is not false! So, my challenge to Blaine remains...show me one provable fact from the BoM, not something curious or cute or circumstantial or possible, and not something supported by convenient prooftexts out of context, but verifiable, incontrovertible proof. Perry From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 23:23:07 -0500 Perry wrote: If you cannot find even one proven fact in the BoM that is not from the Bible, then my assertion about it's fictional nature stands. That is interesting about the barley, but it hardly consitutes a proof. There is no linkage between the barley the BoM other than in name only. I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for, Perry. If you would accept the lack of barley in the New World as evidence of the Book of Mormon being false, then it seems to me that you should accept its documentation of having existed here in a previous time as evidence of support for the Book of Mormon. Exactly what are you looking for? You know that I think the Book of Mormon is bogus, but I'm trying to understand the nature of the proof you seek. It seems to me that the best approach is not to look for proofs within the book, but to show one falsehood. Blaine, if we could prove one passage as being false, would you accept the notion that the whole book is untrustworthy? That is not to say
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
The interpretation that the "other sheep" are jews in America is spelled out in 3 Nephi 15. It is not to be found in the Holy Bible. The time of the alleged account is AD34 in a visit to the "Nephite" people
NOT JUST A SELECT FEW
Acts 2:36 Therefore let ALL the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Not just descendants of Judah, but ALLof the tribes like Benjamin Romans 11:1 Asher Luke 2:36
LOST SHEEP COULD NOT BE IN AMERICA
Mt 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
None of the Twelve went to America, that is ludicrous
THE OTHER SHEEP
Romans 10:19-21 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
This is not a description of the Nephites! He was made manifest through preaching throughout the world Romans 10:17-18 The Bible shows clearly how that the message would go forth to the gentiles. Notice that this is a quotation of the Old testament prophet Isaiah.
Jesus the hope of Gentiles
Matt 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Matt 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Sheep HEAR His voice
JN 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Paul missionary to the GentilesActs 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel
Because of Unbelief
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
These of Israel could not hear
Acts 28:26-27 Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
These sheep heard His voice!
Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
As you can see the Gentiles did hear. The whole house of Israel had opportunity but rejected the message, so said "lo we turn to the Gentiles" The Book of Acts ends with a pronouncement of not hearing upon Israel and a turn to the gentiles who will hear.
There are a number of serious problems with the BoM account given in 3 Nephi
The Lands of Inheritance are not transferable and did not include the US (verse 13)
The salvation of God going forth to the gentiles is recorded in the book of Acts, Through the Apostles not from the Indians
Jesus was not referring to His physical audible voice ("hear my voice") but to those that ears to hear. Aceptance of the message is the point. Israel rejected, gentiles accepted. Jesus would have had to visit all localities and believers would have to be within the sound of His voice contrary to John 18:37 "Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." It is not a matter of which lands Jesus visited but of which hearts would respond!
Hebrews 4:7 To day IF ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
In trying to refute 1830 era beliefs about gentiles being recipients of God's grace, JoE commited a serious Anachronistic error. This passage says the jews thought Jesus referal to "other sheep" was talking of the gentiles. It was a common belief during the time of the writing of the BoM only, thus the Anachronism. To Jews of the Jesus' time it was incredulous that anything of God would belong to the gentile dogs. Even the disciples had a hard time accepting this. God had to tell Peter 3 times in Acts 11:7 When the message was sent to the Gentiles it was met with surprise opposition as in Acts 11:1-3 where the jews contended with Peter over even associating with the Gentiles. JoE refuted an 1830 era idea not extant during the supposed 3 nephi account
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Blaine: The following from the Book of Mormon--submitted by Kevin, thank you Kevin--sounds well-reasoned and plausible. I find it far more believable than the tortuous explanation Kevin gives trying to convince us Jesus was referring to the GENTILES when he said "OTHER SHEEP I HAVE WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD." Note again Jesus' response when he was accosted by the Gentile woman--a Canaanite--to come heal her daughter. He said, "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." Yet He later revealed to Peter that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles by the Apostles, and that the Holy Ghost was to be the instrument of conversion--not his voice. NO Gentile ever heard his voice, no Gentile was ever a witness to his ministry on earth, except by default as they may have been present as he ministered to the House of Israel ONLY. This was done to fulfill the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and later to Moses and other Israelite prophets. http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/15 3 Nephi 15:14-24 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem. Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land. This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them: That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them. But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you. And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them. And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching. And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voicethat I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost. But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me. Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america
Blaine, Just a reminder that there is a challenge on the table for you to present one provable, or proven, fact from the BoM that did not come from the Bible. Maybe you have not gotten to it yet in your catching up on TT posts. Perry From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:19:54 -0700 Blaine: The following from the Book of Mormon--submitted by Kevin, thank you Kevin-- sounds well-reasoned and plausible. I find it far more believable than the tortuous explanation Kevin gives trying to convince us Jesus was referring to the GENTILES when he said OTHER SHEEP I HAVE WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD. Note again Jesus' response when he was accosted by the Gentile woman--a Canaanite--to come heal her daughter. He said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Yet He later revealed to Peter that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles by the Apostles, and that the Holy Ghost was to be the instrument of conversion--not his voice. NO Gentile ever heard his voice, no Gentile was ever a witness to his ministry on earth, except by default as they may have been present as he ministered to the House of Israel ONLY. This was done to fulfill the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and later to Moses and other Israelite prophets. http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/15 3 Nephi 15:14-24 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem. Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land. This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them: That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them. But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you. And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them. And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching. And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice-that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost. But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. _ Get reliable access on MSN 9 Dial-up. 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time offer) http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialuppgmarket=en-usST=1/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
