Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Bill, Thank you for taking the time to answer Judy's post with such a detailed response. Although I, too, believe that Jesus said, "My God, My God, what haveyou forsaken me?" to bring Psalm 22 to the minds of those present at the cross, and toour mindsthrough the scriptures, the question remains: what did the Psalmist mean by uttering that statement? How is that statement relevant to the crucifixion of Jesus, other than being the first line of the "song"? Does this statement apply to the Psalmist, or to the crucified Christ? If it applies to the crucified Christ, (as does the rest of the Psalm), then what does it mean in the context of the crucifixion? I feel that by relegating that statement, as uttered from the cross, to a mere memory device, we may overlook the significance of it! Thanks,Perry WT: Psalm 22.1 begins with this most haunting cry, and both Matthew and Mark tell us that Jesus took it up when he was dying on the cross. It is very natural for us, steeped as we are in the legal framework of Western Evangelical thought, to see this cry of Jesus as the supreme _expression_ of his passion. With the justice of God in the background, Jesus takes upon himself our sin and God unleashes upon him the fury of his eternal wrath. And in that horrible, unthinkable moment, Jesus cries out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." But is this the correct interpretation of this verse? What if we read it as true Trinitarian Christians, with the Triune God, not the legalized God of holy anger, in the back of our minds. Again, and I know you know this, this cry of Jesus is a direct quotation from Psalm 22. If we read the Psalm as a whole, we find the message does not end in despair at all, but in Victory; in fact, it ends with the remarkable prophesy, "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before You. ... They will come and will declare His righteousness to a people who will be born, that he has performed it" (2731). Between the cry and the prophecy lies the whole range of human emotion. The first two verses are words of deep despair: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? ... O my God, I cry by day but you do not answer." The anguish of the Psalmist is heightened in that his cries are met by stone-cold silence. But in his despair he rehearses the faith of his fathers. He goes back to the old stories of God's faithfulness: "In you our fathers trusted; the trusted and you delivered them. To you they cried out and were delivered. In you they trusted and were not disappointed" (4-5). But then the psalmist takes a turn into deeper despair and darkness: "But I am a worm, and not a man. A reproach of men, and despised by the people" (6). He is well aware of the heroes of the faith, but I, he thinks to himself, am not a hero. I am not even a good person. Even the people despise me. They mock my trust in God. Go ahead, they say, commit yourself to the Lord and see what happens. Let the Lord deliver you. Then the Psalmist looks away from himself and the people and sets his eyes again upon God. "Yet," he says, "You are the One who brought me forth from the womb. You made me trust when I was at my mother's breast. Upon you I was cast from birth and you have been my God from my mother's womb" (9-10). Here the Psalmist cries out for deliverance: "Be not far from me, for trouble is near; for there is none to help. Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. They gape at me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; It has melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue clings to my jaws; you have brought me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded me; the congregation of the wicked has enclosed me. They pierced Mm hands and my feet; I can count all my bones. They look at me and stare. They divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. But You, O LORD, do not be far from me; O my Strength, hasten to help me! Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth and from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered me. I will declare Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembl y I will praise You" (11-21). The trauma of the Psalmist is staggering. His insides are shredded with fear. He has no courage and no hope. He is crying out to God for help, for deliverance. Then the Psalmist makes another turn. The despair ends, and praise begins and the whole ordeal comes to a victorious end, such that coming generations will look back on this event and see that the Lord has performed his salvation: "I will declare Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. ... For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Perry, thanks. I probably should have made myself clearer here. Jesus, as he did throughout his life, was crying their cry, humanity's cry, when he cried, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me. Bill - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 6:34 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have Bill, Thank you for taking the time to answer Judy's post with such a detailed response. Although I, too, believe that Jesus said, "My God, My God, what haveyou forsaken me?" to bring Psalm 22 to the minds of those present at the cross, and toour mindsthrough the scriptures, the question remains: what did the Psalmist mean by uttering that statement? How is that statement relevant to the crucifixion of Jesus, other than being the first line of the "song"? Does this statement apply to the Psalmist, or to the crucified Christ? If it applies to the crucified Christ, (as does the rest of the Psalm), then what does it mean in the context of the crucifixion? I feel that by relegating that statement, as uttered from the cross, to a mere memory device, we may overlook the significance of it! Thanks,Perry WT: Psalm 22.1 begins with this most haunting cry, and both Matthew and Mark tell us that Jesus took it up when he was dying on the cross. It is very natural for us, steeped as we are in the legal framework of Western Evangelical thought, to see this cry of Jesus as the supreme _expression_ of his passion. With the justice of God in the background, Jesus takes upon himself our sin and God unleashes upon him the fury of his eternal wrath. And in that horrible, unthinkable moment, Jesus cries out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." But is this the correct interpretation of this verse? What if we read it as true Trinitarian Christians, with the Triune God, not the legalized God of holy anger, in the back of our minds. Again, and I know you know this, this cry of Jesus is a direct quotation from Psalm 22. If we read the Psalm as a whole, we find the message does not end in despair at all, but in Victory; in fact, it ends with the remarkable prophesy, "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before You. ... They will come and will declare His righteousness to a people who will be born, that he has performed it" (2731). Between the cry and the prophecy lies the whole range of human emotion. The first two verses are words of deep despair: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? ... O my God, I cry by day but you do not answer." The anguish of the Psalmist is heightened in that his cries are met by stone-cold silence. But in his despair he rehearses the faith of his fathers. He goes back to the old stories of God's faithfulness: "In you our fathers trusted; the trusted and you delivered them. To you they cried out and were delivered. In you they trusted and were not disappointed" (4-5). But then the psalmist takes a turn into deeper despair and darkness: "But I am a worm, and not a man. A reproach of men, and despised by the people" (6). He is well aware of the heroes of the faith, but I, he thinks to himself, am not a hero. I am not even a good person. Even the people despise me. They mock my trust in God. Go ahead, they say, commit yourself to the Lord and see what happens. Let the Lord deliver you. Then the Psalmist looks away from himself and the people and sets his eyes again upon God. "Yet," he says, "You are the One who brought me forth from the womb. You made me trust when I was at my mother's breast. Upon you I was cast from birth and you have been my God from my mother's womb" (9-10). Here the Psalmist cries out for deliverance: "Be not far from me, for trouble is near; for there is none to help. Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. They gape at me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; It has melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue clings to my jaws; you have brought me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded me; the congregation of the wicked has enclosed me. They pierced Mm hands and my feet; I can count all my bones. They look at me and stare. They divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. But You, O LORD, do not be far from me; O my Strength, hasten to help me! Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth and from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answ
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good Morning Bill/WT: Thanks for your explanation which I deleted for the sake of brevity ... to begin with we can agree that Christ is Lord of all and that's a start. So far as I know there are no limits on this forum other than personal/ad hominem attacks and as longas we are discussing ideas rather than attacking persons there is no problem. WT: If the rubric is Truth, then historyhas a share in it; not because all history is Truth, butbecause Truth passes through all history. I get the impression thatsome in thiscommunity think that theyare in the "Bible/Spirit" room and if someone else wants to discuss philosophy or science or something else, he or she can do so, but to do so, he will have to leave behind the stuff ofthe Bible. In other words, these other things are fine, but they do not belong under the heading of "Truth." Well,that isabsurd. Why? because it impugns Christ. It is to say that Christ is Lord here in the Bible room, but there is no room for Christ in philosophy or science -- or history. JT: I can agree that truth passes through all history but all history is not recorded truthfully. Kind of likefigures don't lie but liars do figure.It is my understandingthat there are two kinds of wisdomout there just as there were two trees in the garden and asChristians we are to discern between them. Philosophy, science, and history are a mixture,some of which may be true. However, for a believer Truth is a person. His name is Jesus and heis made to us wisdom from God and in Himare hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Col 2:3) WT: Christis Lord, not because I say so, not because you say so, but because Christ is Lord. If I don't accept that, then I need to change. But if Christ is Lord, and if I am doing what he commanded of me, like taking every thought captive to his obedience and loving him and my neighbor, then I ought to be able to be confident in that I can go to Christian history and find in it something of pertinence to say in the "Bible" room. Thanks for the aside. Since I'm the big context-guy, I think that rather than picking and choosing what things I want to respond to and then scrapping the rest to never never land, I will leave our comments intact and preface today's statements with WT, thusallowingthe context to remain intact. JT: Hope you don't mind if I just respond to today's statements - if you prefer to go back to the whole later, no problem here. JT: Mr. Torrance's language tells mehe is a misguided Calvinist and when one begins with a faulty premise.. WT: This is a classic ad hominem; rather than rebutting the argument by appealing to reason, you said nothing about the argument, instead you attacked the man by appealing to prejudice. JT: When I wrote the above I did not consider it to be ad hominem, I don'tknow the man. I was commenting on his ideas and made thatstatement. because I've been there, done that. I had tolearn the hard way to be Berean and check everything I hear/read in God's Wordmyself. Of course this does notinclude secular philosophy, science, and history but they IMO are not in the categorycalled Truth if we use the scriptural definition. WT: If it is light, what difference does it make if it is coming through Calvin or Camels; it is still light? Calvin would have been the first to say that any light found shining around him was sourced not in himself but in the True Light which came into the world. JT: If it conflicts with orcontradicts the Word of Truth then there is a problem.Calvin's doctrinedoes this causing no end of confusion. He was still in Roman Catholicism when he began his writings and a very young man (in his early 20's). I don't see godliness in the fruit of his life. He lorded it over Geneva and had a man burned at the stake for disagreeing with him. I'll leave the judgment to God and gotoJesus Himself who is the one with ALLlight and who is ALL truth. snip I'm not baiting you Bill, just stating what I understand from scripture which is that Jesus the man became fallen and depraved from the 6th to the 9th hour; whichiswhen the light of the world went out and darkness covered the earth (Matt 27:45, Mark 15:33);he cried "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"because for thefirst time ever he had becomeseparated from the Father because of OUR SIN. WT: I am really quite glad that you said this, because in doing so what you've done implicitlyis what we all have to do sometimes when trying to state biblical truth; that is, we have to assimilate or summarize or synthesizefrom things not stated expressly, in order tostate what we believe to be a just-as-true statement of the truth. And while I do not agree with your summary, I will both defend your right make it and refuse to call it anything less than entirely
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Yes, I've been thinking about that since I first responded last night. You're correct; lust is sin, therefore Jesus did not lust. He, like us, was tempted to lust (for a woman, food, drink, whatever), but He did not give in to that temptation, therefore he did not lust nor did He sin. vincent j. fulton On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:51:58 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That one is a problem cause if he saw a woman and lusted, it would be sin. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I dunno. Perhaps the lust is the temptation? On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:54:12 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan writes: So how do you get tempted to lust? How does a man get tempted to lust? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:53:23 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan writes: ... He suffered temptations of the flesh. So then he lusted like you do? No, He was tempted to lust, but He did not lust, because giving in to the temptation to lust is sin, but He did not sin. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
You're using the convention of using terms like mankind to mean only men to the exclusion of women. By that logic, the scriptures which promise we will all be sons of God must exclude women. No, I don't believe you're correct. On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:29:49 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy Taylor writes: Saying he had a fallen nature is tantamount to saying he had a sin nature whether or not he sinned. The reason we are born fallen is because of the iniquity of the fathers our inheritance from the first Adam on. Yes. It comes down through the father Where do you find that in scripture? JT: All of the following relate to generational sin: Exodus 20:5 God is jealous visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon children to 3rd 4th generation Exodus 34:7 God will by no means clear the guilty visiting the iniquity of the fathers. Lev 26:39 ...and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them... Num 14:33 ...Your sons shall bear your whoredoms until your carcasses be wasted in the wilderness... Job 21:19 ... God layeth up his iniquity for his children Isa 14:21 ... for the iniquity of their fathers that they do not rise nor possess the land... Jer 32:18 ...and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children... This can also be traced in families, for example Cain the first murderer; God judged him but didn't kill him and so Lamech who was either grandson or ggrandson also killed a man. God gives a measure of time for men to repent and when this does not happen eventually he wipes out the whole line as he has done with Ahab and others.. Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 18 both say the same thing and that is - that this progression can stop IF the man is righteous. But Romans 3:10 tells us that there is none righteous, no not one. That is, with the exception of Jesus; Grace and Peace, judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
I think the problem is the way we think of Tempt. I believe it is more like a test. A test only shows what is already there. What was the true nature of Jesus? When I was a welder, there was a suite of tests that a weld would under go. If a weld failed in some applications it could be disasterous. The tests only showed the true nature and integrity, of the weld. You could not see the fault in a weld, it was on the inside. Sin comes from inside of us, sometimes we even have an inner struggle with sin. Jesuswas repulsed by sin because he was always God God is repulsed by sin. His testing revealed his true nature. For him toeven look at a womanin that certainway would be enough to be counted as sin. It all comes down to how you view Christ was he Impecable or not. All the cults see him as pecable, since he had to struggle work out his salvation. Just like they must struggle and attempt to impress a Holy God[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I've been thinking about that since I first responded lastnight. You're correct; lust is sin, therefore Jesus did not lust. He,like us, was tempted to lust (for a woman, food, drink, whatever), but Hedid not give in to that temptation, therefore he did not lust nor did Hesin.vincent j. fultonOn Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:51:58 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>writes:That one is a problem cause if he saw a woman and lusted, it would besin.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I dunno. Perhaps the lust is the temptation?On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:54:12 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deeganwrites:So how do you get tempted to lust?How does a man get tempted to lust?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:53:23 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deeganwrites: ... He suffered temptations of the flesh. So then he lusted like you do?No, He was tempted to lust, but He did not lust, because giving into the temptation to lust is sin, but He did not sin.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.Do you Yahoo!?Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.Do you Yahoo!?Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:50:17 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It all comes down to how you view Christ was he Impecable or not. All the cults see him as pecable, since he had to struggle work out his salvation. Just like they must struggle and attempt to impress a Holy God I don't believe that Jesus had to struggle to avoid sin. I do believe that His mortal body had that fallen nature, but I believe He had no problem or difficulty ignoring his body's fallen nature. When He was hungry or thirsty or whatever, He did not sin by lusting as we do. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, DID NOT REGARD EQUALITY WITH GOD A THING TO BE GRASPED, BUT EMPTIED HIMSELF, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Philippians 2:5-8 NASB) Terry wrote: Note the verse that you supplied. In particular, note the words form, likeness, and appearance. Dwell on these. Jesus had the form of a man, He looked like a man. What are you trying to say? Are you saying that Jesus was a counterfeit man? The verse clearly indicates that Jesus was in the form of God, but he did not consider it something to hold onto. He laid that aside, emptying himself, and took the form of a bond-servant. He suffered death. God cannot die. Nobody can kill God. Are you going to argue that his death was an illusion like the Muslims? If his being a man was an illusion, then his death would have to be an illusion too. Jesus could be tempted and he could be killed for one reason. Jesus was a man. Christ became flesh; he did not just look like flesh. Terry wrote: There is no doubt that Satan was brazen enough to tempt God Himself. But Satan is completely unable to tempt the Father. He was able to tempt Jesus because Jesus was fully man. If Jesus was only God, then he would not have been able to be tempted. You seemed to ignore the passages that I shared that said Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Is God below angels in your perspective? You have a lot of explaining to do. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9 KJV) Terry wrote: But God cannot stop being God for one moment, and God cannot sin, so though Satan TRIED to tempt HIm, the end was never in doubt. What do you mean by saying that Satan TRIED to tempt him? Are you saying that Satan tried to tempt him but really was unable to tempt him? Why would angels minister to Jesus after his temptation experiences if he was not truly tempted and enticed just as we are? Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. (Matthew 4:11 KJV) And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Luke 22:41-44 KJV) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:42:53 -0500 David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But Satan is completely unable to tempt the Father. Luke 4:12 (KJV) And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. The previous sentence is Jesus' citation of Deut 6:16 (KJV) Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God, as you tempted him in Massah. Though Luke 4:12 might be a little ambiguous about who is being tempted (Imho, if Jesus had thrown Himself off the tower, He would have been tempting / testing the Father), but Deut 6:16 makes it clear that the Father can be tempted. Luke 4:13 reinforces the idea that satan did the tempting; it was not something that was part of Jesus. Temptation is not sin; giving in to temptation is sin. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, DID NOT REGARD EQUALITY WITH GOD A THING TO BE GRASPED, BUT EMPTIED HIMSELF, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Philippians 2:5-8 NASB) Terry wrote: Note the verse that you supplied. In particular, note thewords form, likeness, and appearance. Dwell on these. Jesus had the form of a man, He looked like a man. DavidM: What are you trying to say? Are you saying that Jesus was a counterfeit man? Judy: Counterfeit? No we are the counterfeits and He is the real.God prepared a body for Jesus in the womb of Mary, yes it was a flesh body with certain limitations but it was not a body of sin with inherited iniquity fromthe fathers along with the accompanying curses. DavidM: The verse clearly indicates that Jesus was in the form of God, but he did not consider it something to hold onto. He laid that aside, emptying himself, and took the form of a bond-servant. He suffered death. Judy: He was part of the Godhead in heaven and this is what he layed aside; he emptied himself to take up the likeness and appearance of mankindin the body God had prepared for Him in the womb of the virgin Mary DavidM: God cannot die. Nobody can kill God. Are you going to argue that his death was an illusion like the Muslims? If his being a man was an illusion, then his death would have to be an illusion too. Judy: That he was a man with sinful fleshis the illusion. DavidM: Jesus could be tempted and he could be killed for one reason. Jesus was a man. Christ became flesh; he did not just look like flesh. Judy: Jesus couldn't be killed, even as a man he was still primarily a spiritual being with a soul and a body. Only his body could be killed. His flesh was sinless flesh; "he became sin for us WHO KNEW NO SIN that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" Terry wrote: There is no doubt that Satan was brazen enoughto tempt God Himself. DavidM: But Satan is completely unable to tempt the Father. He was able to tempt Jesus because Jesus was fully man. If Jesus was only God, then he would not have been able to be tempted. Judy: Being tempted does not make Jesus flesh sinful nor does it make him any less God. AE were innocent and they weretempted/tested. It is also possible forGod to be tempted (Deut 6:16). Israel did it at Massah. Jesus would have done it if he had listened to Satan (Luke 4:12) and the apostles spoke of it (Acts 15:10). DavidM: You seemed to ignore the passages that I shared that said Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Is God below angels in your perspective? You have a lot of explaining to do. Judy: He was made a "little lower than the angels"for one purpose only and that is the suffering of death after which he was crowned with glory and honor. Actually all judgment in heaven and on earth had been given him even before he went to the cross. He said so. Terry wrote:But God cannot stop being God for one moment,and God cannot sin, so though Satan TRIEDto tempt HIm, the end was never in doubt. DavidM: What do you mean by saying that Satan TRIED to tempt him? Are you saying that Satan tried to tempt him but really was unable to tempt him? Why would angels minister to Jesus after his temptation experiences if he was not truly tempted and enticed just as we are? Judy: Because he had been fasting for 40 days and was hungry - he had pushed his physical body to the limit. (I've never done this, have you?) AlsoGod didn't have a choice, Jesus is the ONLY one who qualified as a spotless and sinless sacrifice with eternal blood flowing in his veins;he knew what lay ahead ofHim which was to be scourged for our healing and thenhang naked on a Roman cross for our sin and that of thewhole world(which as part of the Godhead I'm sure he had observed), thatand the accompanying curses...Those angels were God's mercy and I sure am glad he didn't call 10,000 of them to get him down from the cross. "Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him." (Matthew 4:11 KJV) "And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." (Luke 22:41-44 KJV). Waiting to read Terry's response, Grace and Peace, Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Thanks for the kind words, Bill.:) vincent j. fulton On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:04:35 -0700 Wm. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hello, and please forgive me. I think your name is Vince, but I'm not sure. I have been gone since early this morning; hence the delay in getting back to you. I am really, really glad though that I was gone, because in my absence you have had time to post several messages, which I have had opportunity to read before answering this one. That is a good thing because it has helped me to kind of get a feel for who you are. I must say, I am impressed! You have a wonderful way of saying things -- really simply, really clearly, really nicely. I will have you in mind when striving myself to do the same. I appreciate what you have to say regarding my comment: But the Son was not always Jesus; i.e., he was not always Incarnate. I should have been more selective in my choice of wording. Thank you for clearing this up. Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 01:43:08 -0700 Wm. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BT: The Son was eternally begotten of the Father. But the Son was not always Jesus; i.e., he was not always Incarnate. The Word became flesh (Jn 1.14). He became something which he was not before, which he was not from eternity: He became flesh. Do you agree with me? I agree with the part about Him not always having been incarnate, but we could probably split a few hairs over His not always having been Jesus. Jesus is a corruption of Yaweh Shua, I am salvation. It combines God's name, I am, with salvation. In the bible, especially the ot, names come from function. Jesus is God, and he's our savior, thus we have Jesus, I am salvation. Was He our savior before He incarnated, or did He become our savior at the moment of death on the cross, or some other time? Well, I guess I've more than split that hair; I've squished it into dust which doesn't much resemble a hair at all any more.:) -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]JT: Where do you find this equation in scripture Vince? vince: Heb 4:15 (NIV) "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been TEMPTED in EVERY WAY, just as we are --- yet without sin." Heb 2:14-18 (NIV) "Since the chldren have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity For this reason he had to be MADE LIKE HIS BROTHERS in **EVERY** WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God ... Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted." The scriptures above say He was like us in every way. From that I infer: He was like us in that He had a fallen human nature.The scriptures above say He was tempted in every way. From that I infer: Some temptations come from the flesh, and He suffered every temptation, therefore He suffered temptations of the flesh. JT: Thanks for your quickresponse Vince only before we make Jesus just like us with a sinful flesh nature - (which is in effect a sinner because we are all born in sin) -don't you think it would be wise toconfer with the rest of scripture? The word for "temptation" #3986 means trying circumstances or a sense of trial and when God is involved temptation is always for the purpose of proving someone, never for the purpose of causing him to fall. It is more a trial of one's character as in 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 4:13, and 1 Tim 6:9;Satan may be involved; but the fact that Jesus was tempted in no way assures us thatHe had the same inheritance in sin as us. Following area few scriptures to consider... The angel who spoke to Mary spoke of "that Holy One who is to be born ... Luke 1:35 The demons knew who he was and they called HimHoly (see Luke 4:34, Luke 5:41) Hebrews 7:26 tells us He was Holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners. Jesus Himself said "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" (John 12:45, John 14:9) At the passover Jesus did not commit himself to those wanting to be around him because he knew what was in man (John 2:24,25); and when the time of His passion drew near He told the disciples "the prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me" (John 14:30) which is not true for anyone else born of a woman. In fact we were dead in trespasses and sin in which we once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience (Eph 2:1) How is Jesus to be the Covenant the "bread of life?" If we accept what Bill Taylor is teaching (the Incarnation is to be understood as the coming of God to take upon himself our fallen human nature, our actual human existence laden with sin and guilt, our humanity diseased in mind and soul in its estrangement or alienation from the Creator)should He have said, "take, eat, this is my old sin ravaged body diseased in mind and soul and estranged and alienated from the Father" which I am giving for you? Was he lyingwhen he claimed to be one with God? Is God the Father one with sin? Grace and Peace, Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
He could not have said, Take and eat my old sin ravaged body, because He never sinned. He was tempted, but He did not sin. Saying that Jesus had a normal human body with a built-in fallen nature is not tantamount to saying He sinned. He overcame His flesh, He overcame the world, and He overcame the devil, so there's no way He or his body could have been sin-ravaged. On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:03:56 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] JT: Where do you find this equation in scripture Vince? vince: Heb 4:15 (NIV) For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been TEMPTED in EVERY WAY, just as we are --- yet without sin. Heb 2:14-18 (NIV) Since the chldren have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity For this reason he had to be MADE LIKE HIS BROTHERS in **EVERY** WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God ... Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. The scriptures above say He was like us in every way. From that I infer: He was like us in that He had a fallen human nature. The scriptures above say He was tempted in every way. From that I infer: Some temptations come from the flesh, and He suffered every temptation, therefore He suffered temptations of the flesh. JT: Thanks for your quick response Vince only before we make Jesus just like us with a sinful flesh nature - (which is in effect a sinner because we are all born in sin) - don't you think it would be wise to confer with the rest of scripture? The word for temptation #3986 means trying circumstances or a sense of trial and when God is involved temptation is always for the purpose of proving someone, never for the purpose of causing him to fall. It is more a trial of one's character as in 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 4:13, and 1 Tim 6:9; Satan may be involved; but the fact that Jesus was tempted in no way assures us that He had the same inheritance in sin as us. Following are a few scriptures to consider... The angel who spoke to Mary spoke of that Holy One who is to be born ... Luke 1:35 The demons knew who he was and they called Him Holy (see Luke 4:34, Luke 5:41) Hebrews 7:26 tells us He was Holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners. Jesus Himself said If you've seen me you've seen the Father (John 12:45, John 14:9) At the passover Jesus did not commit himself to those wanting to be around him because he knew what was in man (John 2:24,25); and when the time of His passion drew near He told the disciples the prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me (John 14:30) which is not true for anyone else born of a woman. In fact we were dead in trespasses and sin in which we once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience (Eph 2:1) How is Jesus to be the Covenant the bread of life? If we accept what Bill Taylor is teaching (the Incarnation is to be understood as the coming of God to take upon himself our fallen human nature, our actual human existence laden with sin and guilt, our humanity diseased in mind and soul in its estrangement or alienation from the Creator) should He have said, take, eat, this is my old sin ravaged body diseased in mind and soul and estranged and alienated from the Father which I am giving for you? Was he lying when he claimed to be one with God? Is God the Father one with sin? Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
The scriptures above say He was like us in every way. From that I infer: He was like us in that He had a fallen human nature. The scripturesabove say He was tempted in every way. From that I infer: Sometemptations come from the flesh, and He suffered every temptation,therefore He suffered temptations of the flesh. So then he lusted like you do? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He could not have said, "Take and eat my old sin ravaged body,"because He never sinned. He was tempted, but He did not sin.Saying that Jesus had a "normal" human body with a built-in fallennature is not tantamount to saying He sinned. He overcame His flesh, Heovercame the world, and He overcame the devil, so there's no way He orhis body could have been sin-ravaged.On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:03:56 -0500 Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>writes:From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]JT: Where do you find this equation in scripture Vince?vince:Heb 4:15 (NIV) "For we do not have a high priest who is unable tosympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been TEMPTED inEVERY WAY, just as we are --- yet without sin."Heb 2:14-18 (NIV) "Since the chldren have flesh and blood, he too sharedin their humanity For this reason he had to be MADE LIKE HISBROTHERS in **EVERY** WAY, in order that he might become a merciful andfaithful high priest in service to God ... Because he himself sufferedwhen he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted."The scriptures above say He was like us in every way. From that I infer:He was like us in that He had a fallen human nature. The scripturesabove say He was tempted in every way. From that I infer: Sometemptations come from the flesh, and He suffered every temptation,therefore He suffered temptations of the flesh.JT: Thanks for your quick response Vince only before we make Jesusjust like us with a sinful flesh nature - (which is in effect a sinnerbecause we are all born in sin) - don't you think it would be wise toconfer with the rest of scripture?The word for "temptation" #3986 means trying circumstances or a sense oftrial and when God is involved temptation is always for the purpose ofproving someone, never for the purpose of causing him to fall. It ismore a trial of one's character as in 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 4:13, and 1 Tim6:9; Satan may be involved; but the fact that Jesus was tempted in no wayassures us that He had the same inheritance in sin as us. Following area few scriptures to consider...The angel who spoke to Mary spoke of "that Holy One who is to be born... Luke 1:35The demons knew who he was and they called Him Holy (see Luke 4:34, Luke5:41)Hebrews 7:26 tells us He was Holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate fromsinners.Jesus Himself said "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" (John12:45, John 14:9)At the passover Jesus did not commit himself to those wanting to bearound him because he knew what was in man (John 2:24,25); and when thetime of His passion drew near He told the disciples "the prince of thisworld cometh and hath nothing in me" (John 14:30) which is not true foranyone else born of a woman. In fact we were dead in trespasses and sinin which we once walked according to the course of this world, accordingto the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in thesons of disobedience (Eph 2:1)How is Jesus to be the Covenant the "bread of life?" If we accept whatBill Taylor is teaching (the Incarnation is to be understood as thecoming of God to take upon himself our fallen human nature, our actualhuman existence laden with sin and guilt, our humanity diseased in mindand soul in its estrangement or alienation from the Creator) should Hehave said, "take, eat, this is my old sin ravaged body diseased in mindand soul and estranged and alienated from the Father" which I am givingfor you? Was he lying when he claimed to be one with God? Is God theFather one with sin?Grace and Peace,Judy--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
. What are you trying to say? Are you saying that Jesus was a counterfeit man? ---No, I am saying that He was more than a man. A man, plus God. The verse clearly indicates that Jesus was in the form of God, but he did not consider it something to hold onto. He laid that aside, emptying himself, and took the form of a bond-servant. He suffered death. God cannot die. Nobody can kill God. Are you going to argue that his death was an illusion like the Muslims? If his being a man was an illusion, then his death would have to be an illusion too. -His being a man was not an illusion. Niether was His death. Jesus could be tempted and he could be killed for one reason. Jesus was a man. Christ became flesh; he did not just look like flesh. This is true, but for lack of a better term, a man plus. Not a man like me, possibly even a better man than you. But Satan is completely unable to tempt the Father. He was able to tempt Jesus because Jesus was fully man. If Jesus was only God, then he would not have been able to be tempted. In my opinion, Satan tempted the father in the book of Job, but that is chasing rabbits. What I wanted to point out is that even though Satan tried to get Jesus to sin, he was unsucessful. Jesus is God, and God cannot sin. The end result was a forgone conclusion. The Father wasn't biting His nails, waiting to see if the Son was too human. There was no need for a plan B. You seemed to ignore the passages that I shared that said Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Is God below angels in your perspective? You have a lot of explaining to do. -Sorry, no explanation. I would have to speculate about what lower than the angels means, and my speculation may not be accurate. I can tell you this. God cannot stop being God for one moment, or He would not be the same forever. Terry wrote: But God cannot stop being God for one moment, and God cannot sin, so though Satan TRIED to tempt HIm, the end was never in doubt. What do you mean by saying that Satan TRIED to tempt him? Are you saying that Satan tried to tempt him but really was unable to tempt him? Why would angels minister to Jesus after his temptation experiences if he was not truly tempted and enticed just as we are? -See my explanation above Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:53:16 -0600 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ... God cannot stop being God for one moment, and God cannot sin, so though Satan TRIED to tempt HIm, the end was never in doubt. It seems that you believe that being tempted is the same as sinning. Heb 2:18 tells us plainly that He was tempted, but didn't sin, therefore it follows logically that being tempted cannot be the same as sinning. You are correct. I worded it poorly. But I think you already figured that out. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] He could not have said, Take and eat my old sin ravaged body, because He never sinned. He was tempted, but He did not sin. JT: I'm glad we can agree on this at least, this is the Presbyterian professor's thesis. vince: Saying that Jesus had a normal human body with a built-in fallen nature is not tantamount to saying He sinned. JT: Saying he had a fallen nature is tantamount to saying he had a sin nature whether or not he sinned. The reason we are born fallen is because of the iniquity of the fathers our inheritance from the first Adam on. It comes down through the father so I don't believe Jesus inherited this at all. IMO and I believe the scriptures teach he was pure and holy all the way through - but could still be tempted. vince: He overcame His flesh, He overcame the world, and He overcame the devil, so there's no way He or his body could have been sin-ravaged. JT: Amen to the above On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:03:56 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] JT: Where do you find this equation in scripture Vince? vince: Heb 4:15 (NIV) For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been TEMPTED in EVERY WAY, just as we are --- yet without sin. Heb 2:14-18 (NIV) Since the chldren have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity For this reason he had to be MADE LIKE HIS BROTHERS in **EVERY** WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God ... Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. The scriptures above say He was like us in every way. From that I infer: He was like us in that He had a fallen human nature. The scriptures above say He was tempted in every way. From that I infer: Some temptations come from the flesh, and He suffered every temptation, therefore He suffered temptations of the flesh. JT: Thanks for your quick response Vince only before we make Jesus just like us with a sinful flesh nature - (which is in effect a sinner because we are all born in sin) - don't you think it would be wise to confer with the rest of scripture? The word for temptation #3986 means trying circumstances or a sense of trial and when God is involved temptation is always for the purpose of proving someone, never for the purpose of causing him to fall. It is more a trial of one's character as in 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 4:13, and 1 Tim 6:9; Satan may be involved; but the fact that Jesus was tempted in no way assures us that He had the same inheritance in sin as us. Following are a few scriptures to consider... The angel who spoke to Mary spoke of that Holy One who is to be born ... Luke 1:35 The demons knew who he was and they called Him Holy (see Luke 4:34, Luke 5:41) Hebrews 7:26 tells us He was Holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners. Jesus Himself said If you've seen me you've seen the Father (John 12:45, John 14:9) At the passover Jesus did not commit himself to those wanting to be around him because he knew what was in man (John 2:24,25); and when the time of His passion drew near He told the disciples the prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me (John 14:30) which is not true for anyone else born of a woman. In fact we were dead in trespasses and sin in which we once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience (Eph 2:1) How is Jesus to be the Covenant the bread of life? If we accept what Bill Taylor is teaching (the Incarnation is to be understood as the coming of God to take upon himself our fallen human nature, our actual human existence laden with sin and guilt, our humanity diseased in mind and soul in its estrangement or alienation from the Creator) should He have said, take, eat, this is my old sin ravaged body diseased in mind and soul and estranged and alienated from the Father which I am giving for you? Was he lying when he claimed to be one with God? Is God the Father one with sin? Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:13:10 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Saying he had a fallen nature is tantamount to saying he had a sin nature whether or not he sinned. The reason we are born fallen is because of the iniquity of the fathers our inheritance from the first Adam on. Yes. It comes down through the father Where do you find that in scripture? -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:53:23 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ... He suffered temptations of the flesh. So then he lusted like you do? No, He was tempted to lust, but He did not lust, because giving in to the temptation to lust is sin, but He did not sin. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
I dunno. Perhaps the lust is the temptation? On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:54:12 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So how do you get tempted to lust? How does a man get tempted to lust? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:53:23 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan writes: ... He suffered temptations of the flesh. So then he lusted like you do? No, He was tempted to lust, but He did not lust, because giving in to the temptation to lust is sin, but He did not sin. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Ah Judy, I've been expecting to hear from you :) Thanks for your interest, and your passion. I will be anxious to spend as much time with you as is necessary to see us both through what appears, at least superficially, to be an impasse from the outset. You are the one who first inspired me to write David. Again, I am moved by your passion; I am glad that you care about this enough to be concerned. O for only a little more of this! I'll preface today's remarks with BT. I hope that this will help others to discern today's remarks from what I said earlier. Thanks, Bill Taylor (Bill) You write in part: This is not a new teaching; indeed the earlyChurchwas quite comfortable with it. It was only late in the formative centuries of the Church that it came under attack. You seem to have a real good grasp of the Scriptures in this area. I am writing to assure you that history is on your side as well. Judy: I'd like you to show me where this is in scripture Wm. If it is in there as you claim. I've yet to see it. BT: Be careful, Judy, I did not make any claims about Scripture here. Any Scriptural claims to this point are made by David; of course this could only be known by knowing the historical context within which David's claims were made. I simply complemented him on his grasp of what the Bible teaches in regards to his thesis. Bill: A great resource for this discussion is T. F. Torrance. Are you familiar with him? In case you are not, he is a Scottish theologian, who taught for many years at the University of Edinburgh.He is currently 91 years old. Torrance has researched this topic more than anyone in recent times. In his great little bookThe Mediation of Christ, he introduces his handling of the Incarnation with these words:"Perhaps the most fundamental truth we need to learn in the Christian Church, or rather relearn since we have suppressed it, is that the Incarnation was the coming of God to save us in the heart of our fallen and depraved humanity, where humanity is at its wickedest in its enmity and violence against the reconciling love of God. Judy: Mr. Torrance's language tells mehe is a misguided Calvinist and when one begins with a faulty premise.. BT: And your language tells me that you haven't been doing much reading of late :) Yes, Torrance is a Scottish Presbyterian, and, yes, he has a tremendous regard for John Calvin. But he is no "Calvinist." In point of fact, he has devotedmany decadesto researching and then rebutting the Federalist tendancies of Calvinism. More to your interest, I suspect, he rejects the doctrine of Limited Atonement, and has written extensively on this subject; moreover he has enlightened generations of Christians to the truth that Calvin no where taught a doctrine of Limited Atonement. Are you relieved to hear this? By the way, how does Torrance's language tell you he is a misguided Calvinist? You are surely not saying that "Calvinism" is the true premise, are you? Bill: That is to say, the Incarnation is to be understood as the coming of God to take upon himself our fallen human nature, our actual human existence laden with sin and guilt, our humanity diseased in mind and soul in its estrangement or alienation from the Creator. This is a doctrine found everywhere in the early Church in the first five centuries, expressed again and again in the terms that the whole man had to be assumed by Christ if the whole man was to be saved, that the unassumed is unhealed, or that what God has not taken up in Christ is not saved" (39). Judy: Then where is it in scripture? BT: Again, Judy, aren't you jumping the gun a little bit here. If you will look at my thesis statement, I told David that I was writing to assure him that history was on his side. To this point, it seems to me that your grievance, if indeed you have one, is with David. I'll get to my beliefs soon enough. Until then, I have yet tomake a biblical argument. The point I do want to make is that it is my comments, which are now historical, concerning historical beliefs that has you, dare I say, somewhat less than at your best? If history doesn't really matter,why are you so rattled? Judy: I don't find God in the flesh becoming fallen and depraved until he hung on the cross at Calvary and it was at this point that God hid his face. BT: Okay, I'll take the bait. Where do you find thisstated in Scripture? Bill: After establishing the historicity of these beliefs and attaching their origin to the writings of the Apostles, he (Mr. Torrance) then goes on to state, "before long in the fourth century there began a revolt against the idea that Christ took our fallen humanity including our depraved mind upon himself in order to redeem it from within. Thus there
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Thank you, Terry. I too look forward to continued dialog. I wasn't trying to jab you. Thank you for being patient with me. Sincerely, Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have - Original Message - From: Wm. Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have Okay, Terry, I guess that about says it all. Thank you for putting up with me as long as you have, and know that I will continue to extend to you my right hand of fellowship. Sincerely, Bill Taylor I'm not putting up with you Bill. I'm trying to understand you. I think you might have something to teach me, and I look forward to continued dialog. If nothing else, I may expand my vocabulary. Terry
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ah Judy, I've been expecting to hear from you :) Thanks for your interest, and your passion. I will be anxious to spend as much time with you as is necessary to see us both through what appears, at least superficially, to be an impasse from the outset. JT: Glad to oblige and this is my point Bill, the Bible does not teach that Jesus took sinful, depraved, flesh upon himself. In fact Luke refers to the infant Jesus as "that holy thing" your thesis and David's would contradict this and other scriptures. BT: A great resource for this discussion is T. F. Torrance. Are you familiar with him? In case you are not, he is a Scottish theologian, who taught for many years at the University of Edinburgh.He is currently 91 years old. Torrance has researched this topic more than anyone in recent times. In his great little bookThe Mediation of Christ, he introduces his handling of the Incarnation with these words:"Perhaps the most fundamental truth we need to learn in the Christian Church, or rather relearn since we have suppressed it, is that the Incarnation was the coming of God to save us in the heart of our fallen and depraved humanity, where humanity is at its wickedest in its enmity and violence against the reconciling love of God. JT: Mr. Torrance's language tells mehe is a misguided Calvinist and when one begins with a faulty premise.. BT: And your language tells me that you haven't been doing much reading of late :) JT: WrongI do alot of reading Bill, just not in the works of Presbyterian theologians. BT: Yes, Torrance is a Scottish Presbyterian, and, yes, he has a tremendous regard for John Calvin. But he is no "Calvinist." In point of fact, he has devotedmany decadesto researching and then rebutting the Federalist tendancies of Calvinism. More to your interest, I suspect, he rejects the doctrine of Limited Atonement, and has written extensively on this subject; moreover he has enlightened generations of Christians to the truth that Calvin no where taught a doctrine of Limited Atonement. Are you relieved to hear this? By the way, how does Torrance's language tell you he is a misguided Calvinist? You are surely not saying that "Calvinism" is the true premise, are you? JT: No Bill, the true premise is the Word of God. We once attended a Presbyterian Churchand so I've struggled through their Calvinistic doctrine in the past. Calvin meant well but he is not the light and it is sad to see pplcamped in his light rather than following thelight of the world. BT: That is to say, the Incarnation is to be understood as the coming of God to take upon himself our fallen human nature, our actual human existence laden with sin and guilt, our humanity diseased in mind and soul in its estrangement or alienation from the Creator. This is a doctrine found everywhere in the early Church in the first five centuries, expressed again and again in the terms that the whole man had to be assumed by Christ if the whole man was to be saved, that the unassumed is unhealed, or that what God has not taken up in Christ is not saved" (39). JT: where is thisin scripture? BT:I have yet tomake a biblical argument. The point I do want to make is that it is my comments, which are now historical, concerning historical beliefs that has you, dare I say, somewhat less than at your best? If history doesn't really matter,why are you so rattled? JT: What makes you say I am rattled and somewhat less than my best Bill?Actually I like history ATST I am aware that it isconstantly revised and that history concerning war is written by thewinnerwith a decided slant in their own favor soI don't take it to heart or receive it as truth as I do the Word of God which is written by the Spirit of Truth even though some of itmay beso. I don't see God in the flesh becoming fallen and depraved until he hung on the cross at Calvary and it was at this point that God hid his face. BT: Okay, I'll take the bait. Where do you find thisstated in Scripture? JT: I'm not baiting you Bill, just stating what I understand from scripture which is that Jesus the man became fallen and depraved from the 6th to the 9th hour; whichiswhen the light of the world went out and darkness covered the earth (Matt 27:45, Mark 15:33);he cried "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"because for thefirst time ever he had becomeseparated from the Father because of OUR SIN. BT: After establishing the historicity of these beliefs and attaching their origin to the writings of the Apostles, he (Mr. Torrance) then goes on to state, "before long in the fourth century there began a revolt against the idea that Christ took our fallen humanity including our depraved mind upon himself in order to redeem it from within. Thus there developed especially in Latin theology from the fifth century a steadily growing rejection of the fact that it was our alienated, fallen, and sinful
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 01:43:08 -0700 Wm. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BT: The Son was eternally begotten of the Father. But the Son was not always Jesus; i.e., he was not always Incarnate. The Word became flesh (Jn 1.14). He became something which he was not before, which he was not from eternity: He became flesh. Do you agree with me? I agree with the part about Him not always having been incarnate, but we could probably split a few hairs over His not always having been Jesus. Jesus is a corruption of Yaweh Shua, I am salvation. It combines God's name, I am, with salvation. In the bible, especially the ot, names come from function. Jesus is God, and he's our savior, thus we have Jesus, I am salvation. Was He our savior before He incarnated, or did He become our savior at the moment of death on the cross, or some other time? Well, I guess I've more than split that hair; I've squished it into dust which doesn't much resemble a hair at all any more.:) -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Terry wrote: I am glad that you agree that Jesus never sinned. Too bad you cannot see that though He was fully man, He never stopped being fully God, and God can not sin. Neither can God be tempted to sin, right? Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (James 1:13-14 KJV) Yet Scripture testifies that Jesus was tempted. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (Hebrews 4:15 KJV) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:16-18 KJV) So clearly something happened to Jesus in being born of the woman that put him in the position of being able to be tempted. Paul explains that he did not hold on to his form of being God, but rather he emptied himself and became a man, being made lower than the angels. God is above the angels, but Jesus was made lower than the angels. This happened when he became a man. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, DID NOT REGARD EQUALITY WITH GOD A THING TO BE GRASPED, BUT EMPTIED HIMSELF, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Philippians 2:5-8 NASB) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9 KJV) Note also the language of Scripture in the following passage: For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren. (Hebrews 2:11 KJV) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
- Original Message - From: Wm. Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have Okay, Terry, I guess that about says it all. Thank you for putting up with me as long as you have, and know that I will continue to extend to you my right hand of fellowship. Sincerely, Bill Taylor I'm not putting up with you Bill. I'm trying to understand you. I think you might have something to teach me, and I look forward to continued dialog. If nothing else, I may expand my vocabulary. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Hello, and please forgive me. I think your name is Vince, but I'm not sure. I have been gone since early this morning; hence the delay in getting back to you. I am really, really glad though that I was gone, because in my absence you have had time to post several messages, which I have had opportunity to read before answering this one. That is a good thing because it has helped me to kind of get a feel for who you are. I must say, I am impressed! You have a wonderful way of saying things -- really simply, really clearly, really nicely. I will have you in mind when striving myself to do the same. I appreciate what you have to say regarding my comment: But the Son was not always Jesus; i.e., he was not always Incarnate. I should have been more selective in my choice of wording. Thank you for clearing this up. Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 01:43:08 -0700 Wm. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BT: The Son was eternally begotten of the Father. But the Son was not always Jesus; i.e., he was not always Incarnate. The Word became flesh (Jn 1.14). He became something which he was not before, which he was not from eternity: He became flesh. Do you agree with me? I agree with the part about Him not always having been incarnate, but we could probably split a few hairs over His not always having been Jesus. Jesus is a corruption of Yaweh Shua, I am salvation. It combines God's name, I am, with salvation. In the bible, especially the ot, names come from function. Jesus is God, and he's our savior, thus we have Jesus, I am salvation. Was He our savior before He incarnated, or did He become our savior at the moment of death on the cross, or some other time? Well, I guess I've more than split that hair; I've squished it into dust which doesn't much resemble a hair at all any more.:) -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Judy, I haven't forgotten you, and will get back to you soon, probably sometime tomorrow. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ah Judy, I've been expecting to hear from you :) Thanks for your interest, and your passion. I will be anxious to spend as much time with you as is necessary to see us both through what appears, at least superficially, to be an impasse from the outset. JT Glad to oblige and this is my point Bill, the Bible does not teach that Jesus took sinful, depraved, flesh upon himself. In fact Luke refers to the infant Jesus as "that holy thing" your thesis and David's would contradict this and other scriptures. BT: A great resource for this discussion is T. F. Torrance. Are you familiar with him? In case you are not, he is a Scottish theologian, who taught for many years at the University of Edinburgh.He is currently 91 years old. Torrance has researched this topic more than anyone in recent times. In his great little bookThe Mediation of Christ, he introduces his handling of the Incarnation with these words:"Perhaps the most fundamental truth we need to learn in the Christian Church, or rather relearn since we have suppressed it, is that the Incarnation was the coming of God to save us in the heart of our fallen and depraved humanity, where humanity is at its wickedest in its enmity and violence against the reconciling love of God. JT: Mr. Torrance's language tells mehe is a misguided Calvinist and when one begins with a faulty premise.. BT: And your language tells me that you haven't been doing much reading of late :) JT: WrongI do alot of reading Bill, just not in the works of Presbyterian theologians. BT: Yes, Torrance is a Scottish Presbyterian, and, yes, he has a tremendous regard for John Calvin. But he is no "Calvinist." In point of fact, he has devotedmany decadesto researching and then rebutting the Federalist tendancies of Calvinism. More to your interest, I suspect, he rejects the doctrine of Limited Atonement, and has written extensively on this subject; moreover he has enlightened generations of Christians to the truth that Calvin no where taught a doctrine of Limited Atonement. Are you relieved to hear this? By the way, how does Torrance's language tell you he is a misguided Calvinist? You are surely not saying that "Calvinism" is the true premise, are you? JT: No Bill, the true premise is the Word of God. We once attended a Presbyterian Churchand so I've struggled through their Calvinistic doctrine in the past. Calvin meant well but he is not the light and it is sad to see pplcamped in his light rather than following thelight of the world. BT: That is to say, the Incarnation is to be understood as the coming of God to take upon himself our fallen human nature, our actual human existence laden with sin and guilt, our humanity diseased in mind and soul in its estrangement or alienation from the Creator. This is a doctrine found everywhere in the early Church in the first five centuries, expressed again and again in the terms that the whole man had to be assumed by Christ if the whole man was to be saved, that the unassumed is unhealed, or that what God has not taken up in Christ is not saved" (39). JT: where is thisin scripture? BT:I have yet tomake a biblical argument. The point I do want to make is that it is my comments, which are now historical, concerning historical beliefs that has you, dare I say, somewhat less than at your best? If history doesn't really matter,why are you so rattled? JT: What makes you say I am rattled and somewhat less than my best Bill?Actually I like history ATST I am aware that it isconstantly revised and that history concerning war is written by thewinnerwith a decided slant in their own favor soI don't take it to heart or receive it as truth as I do the Word of God which is written by the Spirit of Truth even though some of itmay beso. I don't see God in the flesh becoming fallen and depraved until he hung on the cross at Calvary and it was at this point that God hid his face. BT: Okay, I'll take the bait. Where do you find thisstated in Scripture? JT: I'm not baiting you Bill, just stating what I understand from scripture which is that Jesus the man became fallen and depraved from the 6th to the 9th hour; whichiswhen the light of the world went out and darkness covered the earth (Matt 27:45, Mark 15:33);he cried "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"because for thefirst time ever he had becomeseparated from t
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, DID NOT REGARD EQUALITY WITH GOD A THING TO BE GRASPED, BUT EMPTIED HIMSELF, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Philippians 2:5-8 NASB) Note the verse that you supplied. In particular, note the words form, likeness, and appearance. Dwell on these. Jesus had the form of a man, He looked like a man. Everything about Him reminded you of a man (except that He humbled Himself. Men seldom do that.) There is no doubt that Satan was brazen enough to tempt God Himself. But God cannot stop being God for one moment, and God cannot sin, so though Satan TRIED to tempt HIm, the end was never in doubt. Rejoice!' Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 15:57:25 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JT: Where do you find this equation in scripture Vince? Heb 4:15 (NIV) For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been TEMPTED in EVERY WAY, just as we are --- yet without sin. Heb 2:14-18 (NIV) Since the chldren have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity For this reason he had to be MADE LIKE HIS BROTHERS in **EVERY** WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God ... Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. The scriptures above say He was like us in every way. From that I infer: He was like us in that He had a fallen human nature. The scriptures above say He was tempted in every way. From that I infer: Some temptations come from the flesh, and He suffered every temptation, therefore He suffered temptations of the flesh. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:03:21 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JT: And why was it important for Mary to conceive of the Spirit if her child was to take upon himself our fallen human nature, our actual human existence laden with sin and guilt, our humanity diseased in mind and soul in its estrangement or alienation from the Creator?. Natural generation from Adam on would have taken care of this. vince: Yes, natural generation did take care of that. That's why He was born of a human mother, to get that fallen human nature. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit to get the God nature into his body. He was born of a human mother to get the fallen human nature in His body. He was born 100% human, and 100% God. He was tempted by satan, but didn't sin. He was in the world, but did not participate in the world's sins. He had a fallen human nature, but never gave in to temptation. Like us, He was up against the world, satan, and a fallen nature, but, unlike us, He never sinned. He showed that, with His help, we, too, can overcome. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
the fact that they are included in Scripture negate their historicity? Is the Church not Christ's Church? Are we not his people? Is Church history not our history; is it not Christ's history? Is Christ not Lord over all history? You say that Jesus did not advise us to look at history. Do you believe that Jesus does not care about history, about what his Church believes in any age, in all ages? Are the beliefs of the Church not historical beliefs, whether true or false? Should it matter to us what the Church teaches? Does it matter what the Church believes, whether we are talking about today or in days past? What if false beliefs from earlier times are not caught and corrected today, shouldn't that matter to us? I think Jesus would say it should. Thank you, Terry. I will be waiting for your reply. Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have Hello Bill Taylor. Welcome to the melee. Sorry to say that I do not quite understand what you are trying to convey. Jesus did not advise us to look at history. He did not tell us about going to resources. He told us the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth. The Holy Spirit tells me (backed up by scripture) that Jesus was and is God. Always has been, always will be. Two things everyone should know about God. One, He does not change, and two, He cannot sin. That He took my sins on Himself and paid for them with His blood is scriptural. He did that during His last moments on the cross. At that moment you may classify Him as sinful if you wish, but I see Him as sacrifice, not sinner. Had he ever sinned prior to the cross, He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice. If I have misunderstood you, feel free to clarify. Respectfully, Terry A great resource for this discussion is T. F. Torrance. In his great little book The Mediation of Christ, he introduces his handling of the Incarnation with these words: Perhaps the most fundamental truth we need to learn in the Christian Church, or rather relearn since we have suppressed it, is that the Incarnation was the coming of God to save us in the heart of our fallen and depraved humanity, where humanity is at its wickedest in its enmity and violence against the reconciling love of God. That is to say, the Incarnation is to be understood as the coming of God to take upon himself our fallen human nature, After establishing the historicity of these beliefs and attaching their origin to the writings of the Apostles, he then goes on to state, before long in the fourth century there began a revolt against the idea that Christ took our fallen humanity including our depraved mind upon himself in order to redeem it from within. Thus there developed especially in Latin theology from the fifth century a steadily growing rejection of the fact that it was our alienated, fallen, and sinful humanity that the Holy Son of God assumed, and there was taught instead the idea that it was humanity in its perfect original state that Jesus took over from the Virgin Mary, which of course forced Roman Catholic theology into the strange notion of immaculate conception, . . . It seems to me that Christians should be able and willing to ask the question, What has happened to influence my thinking in this area? Why did early Christians accept this teaching, when I am unable even to consider it? What stands in the gap between the beliefs of these early Christians and those that I hold? If nothing else, David, if Christians will take seriously the early history of the Church, when they say No to you, they will know that you have been relegated to some pretty good company. . -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Subject: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have David, regarding your thesis, "Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have": I am new to this forum, so am not sure where or how the discussion began, or how or whetherit ended. From what I gather, it has been a while since anyone has weighed in on the issue. I am impressed with your patience. This is a difficult teaching for most Christians; not only are they not willing to accept it, in my experience, they are not even willing to entertain its possibility. In my humble opinion, this isnot so much because it is an unbiblical teaching -- it is not; rather it is due to the fact that we have primarily lost the historical context for teaching it. This is not a new teaching; indeed the earlyChurchwas quite comfortable with it. It was only late in the formative centuries of the Church that it came under attack. You seem to have a real good grasp of the Scriptures in this area. I am writing to assure you that history is on your side as well. A great resource for this discussion is T. F. Torrance. Are you familiar with him? In case you are not, he is a Scottish theologian, who taught for many years at the University of Edinburgh.He is currently 91 years old. Torrance has researched this topic more than anyone in recent times. In his great little bookThe Mediation of Christ, he introduces his handling of the Incarnation with these words:"Perhaps the most fundamental truth we need to learn in the Christian Church, or rather relearn since we have suppressed it, is that the Incarnation was the coming of God to save us in the heart of our fallen and depraved humanity, where humanity is at its wickedest in its enmity and violence against the reconciling love of God. That is to say, the Incarnation is to be understood as the coming of God to take upon himself our fallen human nature, our actual human existence laden with sin and guilt, our humanity diseased in mind and soul in its estrangement or alienation from the Creator. This is a doctrine found everywhere in the early Church in the first five centuries, expressed again and again in the terms that the whole man had to be assumed by Christ if the whole man was to be saved, that the unassumed is unhealed, or that what God has not taken up in Christ is not saved" (39). After establishing the historicity of these beliefs and attaching their origin to the writings of the Apostles, he then goes on to state, "before long in the fourth century there began a revolt against the idea that Christ took our fallen humanity including our depraved mind upon himself in order to redeem it from within. Thus there developed especially in Latin theology from the fifth century a steadily growing rejection of the fact that it was our alienated, fallen, and sinful humanity that the Holy Son of God assumed, and there was taught instead the idea that it was humanity in its perfect original state that Jesus took over from the Virgin Mary, which of course forced Roman Catholic theology into the strange notion of immaculate conception, . . . Strange as it may now seem, Christian theology in the West, not least in so-called 'Protestant Orthodoxy,' has largely followed the line of the Roman Catholic Church, although without taking over its notion of immaculate conception" (40). The truth is, asmuch as we want to be objective in our study, like it or not, we all bring something to the text. It is important, I believe, when entering into this discussion to set it in its proper historical context (as you attempted to do when you told Judy that her beliefs were rooted in Roman Catholicism). Much has happened throughout the centuries to shape and mold the way we go to the Scriptures. If we do not know what earlier Christians believed and do not know the events which took place to challenge and change those beliefs, then we are prone to assume that what we believe today is what Christians have always believed. This topic is a great case in point: what the early Church considered orthodoxy is now treated as appalling to the sensitivities of most 'orthodox' Christians. My guess is that most of these Christians are unaware of what their early brothers and sisters believed. They assume that the immaculate view is also the historic view. They deserve to know that it is not. It seems to me that Christians should be able and willingto ask the question, What has happened to influence my thinking in this area? Why did early Christians accept this teaching, when I am unable even to consider it? What stands in the gap between the beliefs of these early Christians and those that I hold? If nothing else, David, if Christians will take seriously the early history of the Church,when they say No to you, they will know that you have been relegated to some pretty good company. Another resource, if you are interested, is Thomas Weinandy. His b
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Hello Bill Taylor. Welcome to the melee. Sorry to say that I do not quite understand what you are trying to convey. Jesus did not advise us to look at history. He did not tell us about going to resources. He told us the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth. The Holy Spirit tells me (backed up by scripture) that Jesus was and is God. Always has been, always will be. Two things everyone should know about God. One, He does not change, and two, He cannot sin. That He took my sins on Himself and paid for them with His blood is scriptural. He did that during His last moments on the cross. At that moment you may classify Him as sinful if you wish, but I see Him as sacrifice, not sinner. Had he ever sinned prior to the cross, He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice. If I have misunderstood you, feel free to clarify. Respectfully, Terry A great resource for this discussion is T. F. Torrance. In his great little bookThe Mediation of Christ, he introduces his handling of the Incarnation with these words:"Perhaps the most fundamental truth we need to learn in the Christian Church, or rather relearn since we have suppressed it, is that the Incarnation was the coming of God to save us in the heart of our fallen and depraved humanity, where humanity is at its wickedest in its enmity and violence against the reconciling love of God. That is to say, the Incarnation is to be understood as the coming of God to take upon himself our fallen human nature, After establishing the historicity of these beliefs and attaching their origin to the writings of the Apostles, he then goes on to state, "before long in the fourth century there began a revolt against the idea that Christ took our fallen humanity including our depraved mind upon himself in order to redeem it from within. Thus there developed especially in Latin theology from the fifth century a steadily growing rejection of the fact that it was our alienated, fallen, and sinful humanity that the Holy Son of God assumed, and there was taught instead the idea that it was humanity in its perfect original state that Jesus took over from the Virgin Mary, which of course forced Roman Catholic theology into the strange notion of immaculate conception, . . . It seems to me that Christians should be able and willingto ask the question, What has happened to influence my thinking in this area? Why did early Christians accept this teaching, when I am unable even to consider it? What stands in the gap between the beliefs of these early Christians and those that I hold? If nothing else, David, if Christians will take seriously the early history of the Church,when they say No to you, they will know that you have been relegated to some pretty good company. .
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Welcome to TT Bill Taylor - From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have You write in part: This is not a new teaching; indeed the earlyChurchwas quite comfortable with it. It was only late in the formative centuries of the Church that it came under attack. You seem to have a real good grasp of the Scriptures in this area. I am writing to assure you that history is on your side as well. Judy: I'd like you to show me where this is in scripture Wm. If it is in there as you claim. I've yet to see it. Bill: A great resource for this discussion is T. F. Torrance. Are you familiar with him? In case you are not, he is a Scottish theologian, who taught for many years at the University of Edinburgh.He is currently 91 years old. Torrance has researched this topic more than anyone in recent times. In his great little bookThe Mediation of Christ, he introduces his handling of the Incarnation with these words:"Perhaps the most fundamental truth we need to learn in the Christian Church, or rather relearn since we have suppressed it, is that the Incarnation was the coming of God to save us in the heart of our fallen and depraved humanity, where humanity is at its wickedest in its enmity and violence against the reconciling love of God. Judy: Mr. Torrance's language tells mehe is a misguided Calvinist and when one begins with a faulty premise.. Bill: That is to say, the Incarnation is to be understood as the coming of God to take upon himself our fallen human nature, our actual human existence laden with sin and guilt, our humanity diseased in mind and soul in its estrangement or alienation from the Creator. This is a doctrine found everywhere in the early Church in the first five centuries, expressed again and again in the terms that the whole man had to be assumed by Christ if the whole man was to be saved, that the unassumed is unhealed, or that what God has not taken up in Christ is not saved" (39). Judy: Then where is it in scripture? I don't find God in the flesh becoming fallen and depraved until he hung on the cross at Calvary and it was at this point that God hid his face. Bill: After establishing the historicity of these beliefs and attaching their origin to the writings of the Apostles, he (Mr. Torrance) then goes on to state, "before long in the fourth century there began a revolt against the idea that Christ took our fallen humanity including our depraved mind upon himself in order to redeem it from within. Thus there developed especially in Latin theology from the fifth century a steadily growing rejection of the fact that it was our alienated, fallen, and sinful humanity that the Holy Son of God assumed, and there was taught instead the idea that it was humanity in its perfect original state that Jesus took over from the Virgin Mary Judy: We are not to depend on history to lead us into all truth, this is why Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit and this is not a 5th century development. This is the teaching ofscripture... Jesus is the "eternally begottenSon of God" as well as the "only begotten Son of God" - Modern translations such as the (RSV, NIV, NEB and others) dilute key verses like John 3:16 by changing "only begotten son" to "only son" which makes the Bible contradict itself. Jesus was not the only son of God. (a) Adam was a son (Lk 3:38) (b) Angels are sons (Job 1:6) (c) All believing Christians are sons (Jn 1:12). But Jesus is the "only begotten" Son of God which makes Him different. The Greek word is monogenes which clearly means "only generated" and this word is used only 6x in the NT. Five times referring to Jesus and once in Hebrews 11:17 where it refers to Isaac as Abraham's "only begotten son" indicating that he is a type of Christ (a son of promise). 1 John 1:14 says God sent his only begotten son into the world indicating that he was God's only begotten son BEFORE he came into the world. When was he begotten? "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was" (Prov 8:22) Bill: It seems to me that Christians should be able and willingto ask the question, What has happened to influence my thinking in this area? Why did early Christians accept this teaching, when I am unable even to consider it? Judy: I don't know who these "early Christians" are but they are not apostles or this concept could be seen in bothgospels andepistles; also it would have been prophesied in the OT andthere would be no need for a "virgin birth" The preacher wrote in Ecc 1:9 that there is no new thing under the sun which is now even recognized as a scientific law and this includes the work of human reproduction. However because of man's sin God began
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Hi Terry, thanks for the comments. Well, I don't know where to begin. I knew when I posted this that their would be no taking it back, not at least in a way that could satisfy my responders :) If it is okay with you, I would like to address the middle portions of your message first and leave the history stuff til last. And so I will quote you and then post my response: "The Holy Spirit tells me (backed up by scripture) that Jesus was and is God." The Holy Spirit tells me the same thing,throughthe Scriptures. "Always has been, always will be." I agree with you that the Eternal Son has always been and will always be God. "Two things everyone should know about God. One, He does not change, and two, He cannot sin." If you are speaking of his character when you sayhe does not change, then I agree with you.If when you say God cannot sin,you are speaking of Jesusbeforehis death, then I will have to insist that we say he was able not to sin; and this is not to say he was not God -- he was (and is) -- but when referring to the Incarnation, we must also uphold theequally true statement that Jesus was human as well. Being human, sin was a possibility; being God, he was able not to. This does not take away fromthe statement "God cannot sin"; what itdoes do is it lets Jesus be truly human. "That He took my sins on Himself and paid for them with His blood is scriptural. He did that during His last moments on the cross. At that moment you may classify Him as sinful if you wish, but I see Him as sacrifice, not sinner." I do not classify Jesus as sinful, nor would I see him as a sinner, for both would imply that he sinned; I would not want to do that-- Jesus did not sin. What I am stating explicitly now is that when the Word became flesh, the flesh he assumed was human flesh from the sin gnarled stock of Adam. The Atonement in part is Christ's victory over the limitations and propensities of that flesh. It was in the flesh that he condemned sin.It was in the flesh that Christ reconciled humanityto God. It was in the flesh that he defeated the tyrants: sin, death, and the devil. All of these things he accomplished in the flesh, the flesh of Adam, so that when he died, his death could truly be our death, and likewise when he rose victorious, his victory could truly be our victory over these same tyrants, defeated now in Christ. Did he do this "during the last moments on the cross"? Yes, and at every other moment throughout his earthly life. And, yes, I too see him as a sacrifice; not just on the cross, though, but from womb to tomb he sacrificed himself on our behalf, in our place, and as our representative; hence, death being the last enemy to be destroyed. "Had he ever sinned prior to the cross, He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice."That's right, and neither would he have defeated sin, death, and the devil. In short, we would still be in bondage to those things. If you would like further clarification on any of these comments please feel free to ask. Now, about your comments concerning Jesus and history and referents and truth and the Holy Spirit, let me begin by asking you if the only truth is Scripture truth. Is Jesus not the Truth? Is he not Lord over everything? Cannot the Spirit lead us as decisively into historic truth as he does to truth via other mediums? When Jesus spoke to the Jews about Moses or Jonah or Sodom and Gomorrah, was he not speaking of historic events? And were the Jews not his people? Were these events already in Scripture before they happened? Were they not historical before they were inscripturated? Does the fact that they are included in Scripture negate their historicity? Is the Church not Christ's Church? Are we not his people? Is Church history not our history; is it not Christ's history? Is Christ not Lord over all history? You say that Jesus did not advise us to look at history. Do you believe that Jesus does not care about history, about what his Church believes in any age, in all ages? Are the beliefs of the Church not historical beliefs, whether true or false? Should it matter to us what the Church teaches? Does it matterwhat the Church believes, whether we are talking about today or in days past? What if false beliefs from earlier times are not caught and corrected today, shouldn't that matter to us? I think Jesus would say it should. Thank you, Terry. I will be waiting for your reply. Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have Hello Bill Taylor. Welcome to the melee. Sorry to say that I do not quite understand what you are trying to convey. Jesus did not advise us to look at history. He did not tell us about going to resou
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
DavidM, Kevin says: Are you teaching as the LDS do that Christ ATONED for sins in the Garden, not the Cross? That Christ was purified we can be too by a Gethsamn experience?Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps the greatest example of Jesus striving against sin is conveyedto us in the following account:And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down,and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared anangel unto him from heaven, STRENGTHENING HIM. And BEING IN AN AGONY heprayed more earnestly: and HIS SWEAT WAS AS IT WERE GREAT DROPS OF BLOOD FALLING DOWN TO THE GROUND. (Luke 22:41-44 KJV)Are you teaching as the LDS do that Christ ATONED for sins in the Garden, not the Cross? That Christ was purified we can be too by a Gethsamn experience? The Purifying Power of Gethsemane: The Ensign, May 1985; Elder Bruce R. McConkie. Talk given during April 1985 General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.http://www.konnections.com/kcundick/mcconkie.htmlThen in Gethsemane we will see the Son of God ransom man from the temporal and spiritual death that came to us because of the fall.And now as pertaining to this perfect Atonement, wrought by the shedding of the blood of God--I testify that it took place at Gethsamne and at Golgothahttp://www.ldsgames.org/default.asp?choice=ppgTwo thousand years ago, outside JerusalemÂ’s walls, there was a pleasant garden spot, Gethsemane by name, where Jesus and his intimate friends were wont to retire for pondering and prayer.This sacred spot, like Eden where Adam dwelt, like Sinai from whence Jehovah gave his laws, like Calvary where the Son of God gave his life a ransom for many, this holy ground is where the Sinless Son of the Everlasting Father took upon himself the sins of all men on condition of repentance. Temple Preparation Seminar Discussion, which is published by the LDS Church, is explained, "Jesus' greatest suffering in making the atonement for mankind occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane, when he took upon himself our sins, which caused him to bleed at every pore. His suffering at that point was even more intense than when he was put to death on the cross" p. 18 "It was in Gethsemane that Jesus took on Himself the sins of the world, in Gethsemane that His pain was equivalent to the cumulative burden of all men, in Gethsemane that He descended below all things so that all could repent and come to Him" Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.15"Forgiveness is available because Christ the Lord sweat great drops of blood in Gethsemane as he bore the incalculable weight of the sins of all who ever had or ever would repent" Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah, p. 337 David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: I have read this scripture 4 times looking for where it says Jesus resisted the temptation to sin.Hmmm. It sounds like you do not believe that Jesus was tempted?Maybe the following passage would help you?For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelingof our infirmities; but WAS IN ALL POINTS TEMPTED LIKE AS WE ARE, yetwithout sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, thatwe may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews4:15-16 KJV)The following passage helps us also see the humanity of Christ:Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being inthe form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But madehimself of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, andWAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN: And BEING FOUND IN FASHION AS A MAN, hehumbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of thecross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a namewhich is above every name. (Philippians 2:5-9 KJV)For verily HE TOOK NOT ON HIM THE NATURE OF ANGELS; but HE TOOK ON HIMTHE SEED OF ABRAHAM. Wherefore in ALL THINGS it behoved him to be madeLIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful highpriest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sinsof the people. For in that HE HIMSELF HATH SUFFERED BEING TEMPTED, he isable to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:16-18 KJV) Kevin wrote: Would this mean then that he had thoughts of sinful things, that he rejected?When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, clearly those thoughts enteredhis mind and he rejected them. Kevin wrote: Did he lust after a woman, but never consumate that lust?Jesus never looked upon a woman to lust after her, but he had a malebody and experienced its cravings such as hunger and the sex drive.Kevin wrote: Did he consider just one white lie, but decide against it?Yes, I would think so. Considering a white lie is not a sin. That is atemptation. Kevin wrote: Is it OK to have sinful thoughts as long as they are not acted out?There are sins of the mind and thoughts. One cannot meditate
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Perhaps the greatest example of Jesus striving against sin is conveyedto us in the following account:And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down,and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared anangel unto him from heaven, STRENGTHENING HIM. And BEING IN AN AGONY heprayed more earnestly: and HIS SWEAT WAS AS IT WERE GREAT DROPS OF BLOOD FALLING DOWN TO THE GROUND. (Luke 22:41-44 KJV)Are you teaching as the LDS do that Christ ATONED for sins in the Garden, not the Cross? That Christ was purified we can be too by a Gethsamn experience? The Purifying Power of Gethsemane: The Ensign, May 1985; Elder Bruce R. McConkie. Talk given during April 1985 General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.http://www.konnections.com/kcundick/mcconkie.htmlThen in Gethsemane we will see the Son of God ransom man from the temporal and spiritual death that came to us because of the fall.And now as pertaining to this perfect Atonement, wrought by the shedding of the blood of God--I testify that it took place at Gethsamne and at Golgothahttp://www.ldsgames.org/default.asp?choice=ppgTwo thousand years ago, outside JerusalemÂ’s walls, there was a pleasant garden spot, Gethsemane by name, where Jesus and his intimate friends were wont to retire for pondering and prayer.This sacred spot, like Eden where Adam dwelt, like Sinai from whence Jehovah gave his laws, like Calvary where the Son of God gave his life a ransom for many, this holy ground is where the Sinless Son of the Everlasting Father took upon himself the sins of all men on condition of repentance. Temple Preparation Seminar Discussion, which is published by the LDS Church, is explained, "Jesus' greatest suffering in making the atonement for mankind occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane, when he took upon himself our sins, which caused him to bleed at every pore. His suffering at that point was even more intense than when he was put to death on the cross" p. 18 "It was in Gethsemane that Jesus took on Himself the sins of the world, in Gethsemane that His pain was equivalent to the cumulative burden of all men, in Gethsemane that He descended below all things so that all could repent and come to Him" Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.15"Forgiveness is available because Christ the Lord sweat great drops of blood in Gethsemane as he bore the incalculable weight of the sins of all who ever had or ever would repent" Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah, p. 337 David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: I have read this scripture 4 times looking for where it says Jesus resisted the temptation to sin.Hmmm. It sounds like you do not believe that Jesus was tempted?Maybe the following passage would help you?For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelingof our infirmities; but WAS IN ALL POINTS TEMPTED LIKE AS WE ARE, yetwithout sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, thatwe may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews4:15-16 KJV)The following passage helps us also see the humanity of Christ:Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being inthe form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But madehimself of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, andWAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN: And BEING FOUND IN FASHION AS A MAN, hehumbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of thecross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a namewhich is above every name. (Philippians 2:5-9 KJV)For verily HE TOOK NOT ON HIM THE NATURE OF ANGELS; but HE TOOK ON HIMTHE SEED OF ABRAHAM. Wherefore in ALL THINGS it behoved him to be madeLIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful highpriest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sinsof the people. For in that HE HIMSELF HATH SUFFERED BEING TEMPTED, he isable to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:16-18 KJV) Kevin wrote: Would this mean then that he had thoughts of sinful things, that he rejected?When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, clearly those thoughts enteredhis mind and he rejected them. Kevin wrote: Did he lust after a woman, but never consumate that lust?Jesus never looked upon a woman to lust after her, but he had a malebody and experienced its cravings such as hunger and the sex drive.Kevin wrote: Did he consider just one white lie, but decide against it?Yes, I would think so. Considering a white lie is not a sin. That is atemptation. Kevin wrote: Is it OK to have sinful thoughts as long as they are not acted out?There are sins of the mind and thoughts. One cannot meditate uponsinful thoughts and plan out evil in the mind. Nevertheless, it is notsin to have a sinful thought and then reject it. There is a differencebetween temptation and sin.Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
David Miller wrote: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (Hebrews 12:2-4 KJV) The clear implication here is that Jesus strove against sin and had to resist the temptation to sin. Surely he experienced the same infirmity of the flesh that we do, which is why he is able to help us and relate to us when we likewise must resist sin. Kevin wrote: Where does it say this? Is there any scripture that even comes close to this? I just quoted the passage. It explains the suffering of Christ in human terms. He endured the cross, endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, resisted unto the shedding of blood. The author then compares him to his readers, YE HAVE NOT YET RESISTED UNTO BLOOD, STRIVING AGAINST SIN. The point is that we should be encouraged by thinking about how Jesus resisted sin and endured contradictions against him so that we maintain our own integrity as we strive against sin. Furthermore, the Scriptures say: Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. (Hebrews 5:7-9 KJV) Little children, let no man deceive you: HE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. (1 John 3:7 KJV) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
I have read this scripture 4 times looking for where it says Jesus resisted the temptation to sin. Would this mean then that he had thoughts of sinful things, that he rejected? Did he lust after a woman, but never consumate that lust? Did he consider just one white lie, but decide against it?Is it OK to have sinful thoughts as long as they are not acted out? Seems to me it says 1 Jesus endured the contradiction of sinners 2 we should consider His example so we do not become wearied 3 we have not reisted unto blood, striving against sin The CONTEXT (this is for you DaveH) of which is Jesus striving against the contradiction of SINners. This is external to Jesus. Jesus strove against the SIN of the contradicting sinners. jesus did not strive with himself, he strove with sinners the devil.It does not imply that Jesus strove against His own sinful nature, that is just an imagination of your dirty little heart! David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Miller wrote: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (Hebrews 12:2-4 KJV) The clear implication here is that Jesus strove against sin and had to resist the temptation to sin. Surely he experienced the same infirmity of the flesh that we do, which is why he is able to help us and relate to us when we likewise must resist sin.Kevin wrote: Where does it say this? Is there any scripture that even comes close to this?I just quoted the passage. It explains the suffering of Christ in humanterms. He endured the cross, endured such contradiction of sinnersagainst himself, resisted unto the shedding of blood. The author thencompares him to his readers, "YE HAVE NOT YET RESISTED UNTO BLOOD,STRIVING AGAINST SIN." The point is that we should be encouraged bythinking about how Jesus resisted sin and endured contradictions againsthim so that we maintain our own integrity as we strive against sin.Furthermore, the Scriptures say:Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers andsupplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able tosave him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were aSon, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And beingmade perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all themthat obey him. (Hebrews 5:7-9 KJV)Little children, let no man deceive you: HE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS ISRIGHTEOUS EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. (1 John 3:7 KJV)Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just quoted the passage. It explains the suffering of Christ in human terms. He endured the cross, endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, resisted unto the shedding of blood. Judy: Yes he resisted sinners and sin that was coming at him and he learned obedience by the things he suffered, ie: He learned about waiting on the Lord and doing the will of the Father even when the cup he had to drink was abhorrent to Him. DavidM: The author then compares him to his readers, YE HAVE NOT YET RESISTED UNTO BLOOD, STRIVING AGAINST SIN. The point is that we should be encouraged by thinking about how Jesus resisted sin and endured contradictions against him so that we maintain our own integrity as we strive against sin. Judy: There is a difference much of the time in where the sin comes from. We must deal with our own hearts which too many times is where the sin oppresses us. Jesus did not have this problem. DavidM: Furthermore, the Scriptures say: Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. (Hebrews 5:7-9 KJV) Little children, let no man deceive you: HE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. (1 John 3:7 KJV) Judy: Yes, He did leave us an example that we should follow in His steps because all who have received Him have been born of the Spirit. The first Adam became a living soul The second Adam a life giving spirit. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Kevin wrote: I have read this scripture 4 times looking for where it says Jesus resisted the temptation to sin. Hmmm. It sounds like you do not believe that Jesus was tempted? Maybe the following passage would help you? For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but WAS IN ALL POINTS TEMPTED LIKE AS WE ARE, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15-16 KJV) The following passage helps us also see the humanity of Christ: Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN: And BEING FOUND IN FASHION AS A MAN, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name. (Philippians 2:5-9 KJV) For verily HE TOOK NOT ON HIM THE NATURE OF ANGELS; but HE TOOK ON HIM THE SEED OF ABRAHAM. Wherefore in ALL THINGS it behoved him to be made LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that HE HIMSELF HATH SUFFERED BEING TEMPTED, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:16-18 KJV) Perhaps the greatest example of Jesus striving against sin is conveyed to us in the following account: And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, STRENGTHENING HIM. And BEING IN AN AGONY he prayed more earnestly: and HIS SWEAT WAS AS IT WERE GREAT DROPS OF BLOOD FALLING DOWN TO THE GROUND. (Luke 22:41-44 KJV) Kevin wrote: Would this mean then that he had thoughts of sinful things, that he rejected? When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, clearly those thoughts entered his mind and he rejected them. Kevin wrote: Did he lust after a woman, but never consumate that lust? Jesus never looked upon a woman to lust after her, but he had a male body and experienced its cravings such as hunger and the sex drive. Kevin wrote: Did he consider just one white lie, but decide against it? Yes, I would think so. Considering a white lie is not a sin. That is a temptation. Kevin wrote: Is it OK to have sinful thoughts as long as they are not acted out? There are sins of the mind and thoughts. One cannot meditate upon sinful thoughts and plan out evil in the mind. Nevertheless, it is not sin to have a sinful thought and then reject it. There is a difference between temptation and sin. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: I started this, I think--Judy seems to be having a difficult time accepting that there is a difference between the potential for sin and accomplished sin. Jesus had the potential for sin--otherwise the devil would not have taken him up on the high mtn to tempt him. Jesus did not succomb, either then or ever afterwards--or before, however.. Judy: Do you believe in the fall of the first Adam Blaine? Do you believe that every generation from then on is born with a fallen sin nature? Is this the potential for sin you are talking about? Judy From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman. DavidM: The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam). Judy: I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is different and spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father. Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born of fornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he chose to sin after the woman was deceived) and God held both accountable. (Rom 5:14). DavidM: We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy: Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allows everything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had an inheritance in the first Adam he would have been born spiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have had to have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also. but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father even at age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel. Grace adn Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] He was COMPLETELY Man COMPLETELY God Nowhere in scripture does it say there was a conflict between these 2 Natures He had One personality 2 natures. Judy: How could he have two natures, the only two out there are the nature of God and the nature of the devil. Jesus had the mind of Christ - He only spoke and did what he first saw the Father speaking and doing. His words and works were from the Father - in fact he actually told Phillips "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father. Kevin: Jesus PROVED that He walked Holy! What scripture says He proved we could walk holy, because He walked Holy? Judy: I don't know about him proving it but he did leave us an example that we should follow in his steps. And he did say that the works he did we are to do also and 'greater' Also the apostle Peter writes in 1 Peter 1:15"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy" Grace and Peace, Judy David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judy wrote: ... he wasn't of the same flesh as the rest of us. He was made in the "likeness" of man - not the same as.. You are going to have to make up your mind whether or not Jesus was ahuman being. Jesus was either human, or he was an alien, angel, or godwho only looked like a human being. Which is it?
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Judy wrote: ... he wasn't of the same flesh as the rest of us. He was made in the likeness of man - not the same as.. You are going to have to make up your mind whether or not Jesus was a human being. Jesus was either human, or he was an alien, angel, or god who only looked like a human being. Which is it? The Greek word translated likeness is homoioma. Based on semantics alone, it might mean that Jesus possessed a completely human form, or it might mean that he only looked like a man but really was not one. We must look to other passages and to the context of this passage to determine which is meant. If you look carefully at that Romans 8:3 and its context, you will see that Jesus was truly flesh like the rest of us. In Romans 7, Paul just finished explaining how the law was insufficient to bring us into righteousness. Because of the power of our flesh, just knowing to do right was not enough. Therefore, he concludes here in Romans 8 that it took God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, to condemn sin in the flesh. This is what gives us power to walk in righteousness. Jesus proved to us, once for all, that we can live holy BECAUSE he was of the seed of Adam, of the seed of Abraham, and of the seed of David. This clearly is the meaning being conveyed. I don't know how you can look at it any other way. Following is the passage: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4 KJV) How does Christ condemn sin in the flesh if he did not become flesh? This does not make any sense to me. If you have a way of explaining, I would welcome hearing it. The author of Hebrews likewise turns to the humanity of Jesus to encourage us to resist sin, giving us power to rise above the flesh to do what is holy and good. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (Hebrews 12:2-4 KJV) The clear implication here is that Jesus strove against sin and had to resist the temptation to sin. Surely he experienced the same infirmity of the flesh that we do, which is why he is able to help us and relate to us when we likewise must resist sin. Judy wrote: What made him different is that he didn't have the same inheritance in the first Adam as us. Where does this idea come from? What Bible verse taught you this? Can you even quote one? The Bible teaches us the opposite of this, that Jesus had inheritance in Adam and was descended from him, being born of the seed of Abraham and of the seed of David. As pertaining to the flesh, Jesus was just as much a man as any of us. Jesus was a human being. I do not believe that we can truly understand the atonement and step into holiness without understanding this humanity of Christ. Christ became flesh and dwelt among us. He was truly one of us and showed us how to live. Jesus Christ was our example in every way. If his flesh was some alien flesh that was not descended from Abraham and David, then he is not truly my brother, then he truly did not have the same experiences that I have in the flesh, and he would be no hero for me concerning my walk before God anymore than an angel would be. Judy wrote: The egg does nothing at all until united with sperm which comes from the father and blood begins to flow in the 3rd week before the heart begins to beat. No blood flows in an egg incubating all by itself because there is no life The sperm only donates genetic material. The cells that develop into blood come from the egg. Judy wrote: and the placenta protects the child with no blood passing between it and the mother. There is a placental barrier as you indicate, but it is not perfect. Furthermore, the placenta comes from cells of both the embryo and the mother. Judy wrote: Normally there is no blood interaction between mother and child. and today the sex of an unborn child is determined by ultrasound. Being RH- myself and having had four children I know how uncertain all of this is. Ultra-sound is the older technology. Genetic testing is more accurate and more modern advances are showing that the mother's blood carries enough blood cells from the unborn to determine the sex of the unborn. I'm not making this up. I don't have time to look up some links for you, but they are out there if you want to find them. If you truly do not believe me, let me know and I will give you some medical references. Peace be with you. David Miller,
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
He was COMPLETELY Man COMPLETELY God Nowhere in scripture does it say there was a conflict between these 2 Natures He had One personality 2 natures. Jesus PROVED that He walked Holy! What scripture says He proved we could walk holy, because He walked Holy?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judy wrote: ... he wasn't of the same flesh as the rest of us. He was made in the "likeness" of man - not the same as.. You are going to have to make up your mind whether or not Jesus was ahuman being. Jesus was either human, or he was an alien, angel, or godwho only looked like a human being. Which is it?The Greek word translated "likeness" is "homoioma." Based on semanticsalone, it might mean that Jesus possessed a completely human form, or itmight mean that he only looked like a man but really was not one. Wemust look to other passages and to the context of this passage todetermine which is meant. If you look carefully at that Romans 8:3 and its context, you will seethat Jesus was truly flesh like the rest of us. In Romans 7, Paul justfinished explaining how the law was insufficient to bring us intorighteousness. Because of the power of our flesh, just knowing to doright was not enough. Therefore, he concludes here in Romans 8 that ittook God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh, and forsin, to condemn sin in the flesh. This is what gives us power to walkin righteousness. Jesus proved to us, once for all, that we can liveholy BECAUSE he was of the seed of Adam, of the seed of Abraham, and ofthe seed of David. This clearly is the meaning being conveyed. I don'tknow how you can look at it any other way. Following is the passage:For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might befulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Romans 8:3-4 KJV)How does Christ condemn sin in the flesh if he did not become flesh?This does not make any sense to me. If you have a way of explaining, Iwould welcome hearing it.The author of Hebrews likewise turns to the humanity of Jesus toencourage us to resist sin, giving us power to rise above the flesh todo what is holy and good.Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joythat was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and isset down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him thatendured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye bewearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood,striving against sin. (Hebrews 12:2-4 KJV)The clear implication here is that Jesus strove against sin and had toresist the temptation to sin. Surely he experienced the same infirmityof the flesh that we do, which is why he is able to help us and relateto us when we likewise must resist sin.Judy wrote: What made him different is that he didn't have the same inheritance in the first Adam as us.Where does this idea come from? What Bible verse taught you this? Canyou even quote one? The Bible teaches us the opposite of this, thatJesus had inheritance in Adam and was descended from him, being born ofthe seed of Abraham and of the seed of David. As pertaining to theflesh, Jesus was just as much a man as any of us. Jesus was a humanbeing.I do not believe that we can truly understand the atonement and stepinto holiness without understanding this humanity of Christ. Christbecame flesh and dwelt among us. He was truly one of us and showed ushow to live. Jesus Christ was our example in every way. If his fleshwas some alien flesh that was not descended from Abraham and David, thenhe is not truly my brother, then he truly did not have the sameexperiences that I have in the flesh, and he would be no hero for meconcerning my walk before God anymore than an angel would be.Judy wrote: The egg does nothing at all until united with sperm which comes from the father and blood begins to flow in the 3rd week before the heart begins to beat. No blood flows in an egg incubating all by itself because there is no life The sperm only donates genetic material. The cells that develop intoblood come from the egg.Judy wrote: and the placenta protects the child with no blood passing between it and the mother.There is a placental barrier as you indicate, but it is not perfect.Furthermore, the placenta comes from cells of both the embryo and themother.Judy wrote: Normally there is no blood interaction between mother and child. and today the sex of an unborn child is determined by ultrasound. Being RH- myself and having had four children I know how uncertain all of this is.Ultra-sound is the older technology. Genetic testing is more accurateand more modern advances are showing that the mother's blood carriesenough blood cells from the unborn to determine the sex of the unborn.I'm not making this up. I don't have time to look up some links foryou,
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
The clear implication here is that Jesus strove against sin and had toresist the temptation to sin. OK I'll Bite Where does it say this? Is there any scripture that even comes close to this?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judy wrote: ... he wasn't of the same flesh as the rest of us. He was made in the "likeness" of man - not the same as.. You are going to have to make up your mind whether or not Jesus was ahuman being. Jesus was either human, or he was an alien, angel, or godwho only looked like a human being. Which is it?The Greek word translated "likeness" is "homoioma." Based on semanticsalone, it might mean that Jesus possessed a completely human form, or itmight mean that he only looked like a man but really was not one. Wemust look to other passages and to the context of this passage todetermine which is meant. If you look carefully at that Romans 8:3 and its context, you will seethat Jesus was truly flesh like the rest of us. In Romans 7, Paul justfinished explaining how the law was insufficient to bring us intorighteousness. Because of the power of our flesh, just knowing to doright was not enough. Therefore, he concludes here in Romans 8 that ittook God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh, and forsin, to condemn sin in the flesh. This is what gives us power to walkin righteousness. Jesus proved to us, once for all, that we can liveholy BECAUSE he was of the seed of Adam, of the seed of Abraham, and ofthe seed of David. This clearly is the meaning being conveyed. I don'tknow how you can look at it any other way. Following is the passage:For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might befulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Romans 8:3-4 KJV)How does Christ condemn sin in the flesh if he did not become flesh?This does not make any sense to me. If you have a way of explaining, Iwould welcome hearing it.The author of Hebrews likewise turns to the humanity of Jesus toencourage us to resist sin, giving us power to rise above the flesh todo what is holy and good.Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joythat was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and isset down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him thatendured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye bewearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood,striving against sin. (Hebrews 12:2-4 KJV)The clear implication here is that Jesus strove against sin and had toresist the temptation to sin. Surely he experienced the same infirmityof the flesh that we do, which is why he is able to help us and relateto us when we likewise must resist sin.Judy wrote: What made him different is that he didn't have the same inheritance in the first Adam as us.Where does this idea come from? What Bible verse taught you this? Canyou even quote one? The Bible teaches us the opposite of this, thatJesus had inheritance in Adam and was descended from him, being born ofthe seed of Abraham and of the seed of David. As pertaining to theflesh, Jesus was just as much a man as any of us. Jesus was a humanbeing.I do not believe that we can truly understand the atonement and stepinto holiness without understanding this humanity of Christ. Christbecame flesh and dwelt among us. He was truly one of us and showed ushow to live. Jesus Christ was our example in every way. If his fleshwas some alien flesh that was not descended from Abraham and David, thenhe is not truly my brother, then he truly did not have the sameexperiences that I have in the flesh, and he would be no hero for meconcerning my walk before God anymore than an angel would be.Judy wrote: The egg does nothing at all until united with sperm which comes from the father and blood begins to flow in the 3rd week before the heart begins to beat. No blood flows in an egg incubating all by itself because there is no life The sperm only donates genetic material. The cells that develop intoblood come from the egg.Judy wrote: and the placenta protects the child with no blood passing between it and the mother.There is a placental barrier as you indicate, but it is not perfect.Furthermore, the placenta comes from cells of both the embryo and themother.Judy wrote: Normally there is no blood interaction between mother and child. and today the sex of an unborn child is determined by ultrasound. Being RH- myself and having had four children I know how uncertain all of this is.Ultra-sound is the older technology. Genetic testing is more accurateand more modern advances are showing that the mother's blood carriesenough blood cells from the unborn to determine the sex of the unborn.I'm not making this up. I don't have time to look up some links foryou, but they are out there if you want to find them. If you truly
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Judy wrote: ... he wasn't of the same flesh as the rest of us. He was made in the likeness of man - not the same as.. DavidM: You are going to have to make up your mind whether or not Jesus was a human being. Jesus was either human, or he was an alien, angel, or god who only looked like a human being. Which is it? Judy: The first Adam was created a grown man and he was a human being, he was not an alien, an angel, or a demon. DavidM: The Greek word translated likeness is homoioma. Based on semantics alone, it might mean that Jesus possessed a completely human form, or it might mean that he only looked like a man but really was not one. We must look to other passages and to the context of this passage to determine which is meant. Judy: Why, we know he had a flesh, blood, and bone body; he had a mind, will, and emotions, and he was the image of God because he said If you have seen me you have seen the Father DavidM: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4 KJV) How does Christ condemn sin in the flesh if he did not become flesh? This does not make any sense to me. If you have a way of explaining, I would welcome hearing it. Judy: Sin in the flesh was condemned at the cross where he layed down His life for us and our sin. He says in John 14:30 The prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me So Satan had nothing in Him. DavidM: The author of Hebrews likewise turns to the humanity of Jesus to encourage us to resist sin, giving us power to rise above the flesh to do what is holy and good. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood,striving against sin. (Hebrews 12:2-4 KJV) Judy: Note the contradiction of sinners against himself was outward, and not also that He is the author and perfecter or finisher of our faith Our sin is inward for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies; these are the things which defile a man (Matt 15:19) DavidM: The clear implication here is that Jesus strove against sin and had to resist the temptation to sin. Surely he experienced the same infirmity of the flesh that we do, which is why he is able to help us and relate to us when we likewise must resist sin. Judy: We have no evidence that he was ever sick or that he ever offended anyone verbally. He went about doing good and healing ALL who were oppressed of the devil for God was with him. He was a man walking in the full measure of the Holy Spirit - with an inherited sin nature and What made him different is that he didn't have the same inheritance in the first Adam as us. DavidM: Where does this idea come from? What Bible verse taught you this? Can you even quote one? Judy: There are a lot of them but look at the reaction of John the Baptist for starters I baptize you with water unto repentance but he that cometh after me is mightier than I whose shoes I am not worthy to bear, he shall baptize yo with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. Vs.13 then cometh jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? Jesus got baptized as a formality to fulfill all righteousness... Not because he needed to repent. DavidM: The Bible teaches us the opposite of this, that Jesus had inheritance in Adam and was descended from him, being born of the seed of Abraham and of the seed of David. As pertaining to the flesh, Jesus was just as much a man as any of us. Jesus was a human being. Judy: He wasn't born of the seed of any man David. God the Holy Spirit was His father. DavidM: I do not believe that we can truly understand the atonement and step into holiness without understanding this humanity of Christ. Christ became flesh and dwelt among us. He was truly one of us and showed us how to live. Jesus Christ was our example in every way. If his flesh was some alien flesh that was not descended from Abraham and David, then he is not truly my brother, then he truly did not have the same experiences that I have in the flesh, and he would be no hero for me concerning my walk before God anymore than an angel would be. Judy: Did an angel hang naked on the cross publicly for you and your sin David? Yes he left us an example that we should follow in His steps and because of the cross we can now receive power from on high to walk it out. Judy wrote: The egg does
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 1:01 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy wrote: What I don't accept is Jesus being born with the spiritual inheritance left to the rest of us by the first Adam after his fall. DavidM: Spiritual inheritance? What is spiritual inheritance? How is ittransferred to us? Where does the Bible teach "spiritual inheritance"? Judy: Iniquity is a generational participation with sin bearing the same fruit. It shows up as inherited genetic disease and it shows up in a predisposition to personality characteristics such as molestation and doing crime, drugs, rage, anger, and fear. When the Jews of the dispersion returned to Jerusalem and found the book of the law. They stood and listened to it being read all day, and after they agreed to getrid of their foreign wives, they confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers. (Nehemiah 9:2) Blaine: Recent research that I am familiar with does seem to indicate there is a genetic predisposition to live a sinful life. But then, whatwas thought to be genetic often turns out to be more related to what the mother took into her body during pregnancy. Alcohol, drugs, even tobacco and caffeine have been shown to have some effect on the fetus' development, althought the extent of damage is almost always difficult to determine. I listened to a lecture given several years ago by one of Utah's top authorities on child behavior disorders, and he said he "would not touch a baby (for adoption) whose mother had used drugs with a ten foot pole." I have lookedinto fetal alcohol syndrome and have found that although thereare kids who clearly have it as shown by their facial and other physical features, many others have been shown to have it to a milder degree, with no apparent deformities, but later showing up as anti-social personality disorders, psycopathy/sociopathy, compulsive obsessive disorders, alcoholism, drug dependancies,even ADD and/or ADHD. The increase of use of Ritalin and like drugscould probably be shown to parallel increase in alcohol consumption. Then,to add insult to injury, we have almost half of all marriages ending in divorce, so then we get broken homes and the resultant dysfunctionality of families. I wrote: Jesus did not have Adam's genes - DavidM: He most certainly did. The Bible teaches that he was made of the woman(Gal. 4:4), Judy: Born of the woman and born under the law (Gal 4:4); where do you get the idea the He was "MADE" of the woman? DavidM: was made flesh (John 1:14, Romans 1:13), Judy: Romans 1:13 says nothing about Jesus being "MADE" flesh; John 1:14 says the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory the glory of the ONLY begotten of the Father full of grace and truth. and Vs18 "No man has seen God at any time; the ONLY begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. So Jesus was BEGOTTEN, not MADE. DAVIDM: was begotten of Adam (Luke 3:22-38), and Jesus was truly, in truth, a mortal man being made the son of man (John 5:27, Luke 24:7). Judy: The geneaogy in Luke 3:23-38 is through Joseph and we all know that Joseph was not the biological Father of Jesus - this does not make Him a son of the first Adam, he was born of the woman. I wrote: He was created in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit. Is that too hard for God or is it just hard for us to accept? He is not the fruit of any fallen person's body. If God could create the first Adam full grown, why is it so hard to accept that God could create a baby in Mary's womb independent of Mary? Has science become our new god. It is not too hard for God to have created Jesus this way, but suchteaching is contrary to what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that Jesus was made of a woman and truly became flesh like the rest of us. He was not some alien from outer space. He was a mortal man just like the rest of us. Judy: Yes he was mortal in the sense that he had a full range of emotions and he got hungry and had to rest but he was not born with the fallen bloodline the rest of us are heir to. DavidM: Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise TOOK PART OF THE SAME; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily HE TOOK NOT ON HIM THE NATURE OF ANGELS; BUT HE TOOK ON HIM THE SEED OF ABRAHAM. Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: I started this, I think--Judy seems to be having a difficult time accepting that there is a difference between the potential for sin and accomplished sin. Jesus had the potential for sin--otherwise the devil would not have taken him up on the high mtn to tempt him. Jesus did not succomb, either then or ever afterwards--or before, however.. Judy: I don't have a hard time understanding the potential for sin vs accomplished sin Blaine. What I don't accept is Jesus being born with the spiritual inheritance left to the rest of us by the first Adam after his fall. Jesus did not have Adam's genes - He was created in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit. Is that too hard for God or is it just hard for us to accept? He is not the fruit of any fallen person's body. If God could create the first Adam full grown, why is it so hard to accept that God could create a baby in Mary's womb independent of Mary? Has science become our new god. Judy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman. DavidM: The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam). Judy: I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is different and spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father. Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born of fornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he chose to sin after the woman was deceived) and God held both accountable. (Rom 5:14). DavidM: We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy: Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allows everything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had an inheritance in the first Adam he would have been born spiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have had to have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also. but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father even at age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel. Grace adn Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Kevin wrote: Ps 51:5 in sin did my mother conceive me. This is the purpose of the Virgin Birth that Jesus would not inherit a sin nature. He was not concieved in SIN you were! Your teaching here comes from Roman Catholicism. The Bible teaches the opposite, that Christ became flesh (1 John 4:2), that he was MADE OF A WOMAN (Galatians 4:4). The virgin birth was simply a sign according to Isaiah 7:14. Based upon the Bible, nothing more can be made of it. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Judy wrote: What I don't accept is Jesus being born with the spiritual inheritance left to the rest of us by the first Adam after his fall. Spiritual inheritance? What is spiritual inheritance? How is it transferred to us? Where does the Bible teach spiritual inheritance? Judy wrote: Jesus did not have Adam's genes - He most certainly did. The Bible teaches that he was made of the woman (Gal. 4:4), was made flesh (John 1:14, Romans 1:13), was begotten of Adam (Luke 3:22-38), and Jesus was truly, in truth, a mortal man being made the son of man (John 5:27, Luke 24:7). Judy wrote: He was created in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit. Is that too hard for God or is it just hard for us to accept? He is not the fruit of any fallen person's body. If God could create the first Adam full grown, why is it so hard to accept that God could create a baby in Mary's womb independent of Mary? Has science become our new god. It is not too hard for God to have created Jesus this way, but such teaching is contrary to what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that Jesus was made of a woman and truly became flesh like the rest of us. He was not some alien from outer space. He was a mortal man just like the rest of us. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise TOOK PART OF THE SAME; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily HE TOOK NOT ON HIM THE NATURE OF ANGELS; BUT HE TOOK ON HIM THE SEED OF ABRAHAM. Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:14-18 KJV) Believe the BIBLE, not the fairy tales told by the religious clergy. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Was he born of Spirit or born of flesh?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judy wrote: What I don't accept is Jesus being born with the spiritual inheritance left to the rest of us by the first Adam after his fall. Spiritual inheritance? What is spiritual inheritance? How is ittransferred to us? Where does the Bible teach "spiritual inheritance"?Judy wrote: Jesus did not have Adam's genes - He most certainly did. The Bible teaches that he was made of the woman(Gal. 4:4), was made flesh (John 1:14, Romans 1:13), was begotten ofAdam (Luke 3:22-38), and Jesus was truly, in truth, a mortal man beingmade the son of man (John 5:27, Luke 24:7). Judy wrote: He was created in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit. Is that too hard for God or is it just hard for us to accept? He is not the fruit of any fallen person's body. If God could create the first Adam full grown, why is it so hard to accept that God could create a baby in Mary's womb independent of Mary? Has science become our new god.It is not too hard for God to have created Jesus this way, but suchteaching is contrary to what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches thatJesus was made of a woman and truly became flesh like the rest of us.He was not some alien from outer space. He was a mortal man just likethe rest of us.Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he alsohimself likewise TOOK PART OF THE SAME; that through death he mightdestroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliverthem who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject tobondage. For verily HE TOOK NOT ON HIM THE NATURE OF ANGELS; BUT HE TOOKON HIM THE SEED OF ABRAHAM. Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved him TOBE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithfulhigh priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for thesins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted,he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:14-18 KJV)Believe the BIBLE, not the fairy tales told by the religious clergy.Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
RCC? ROTFL Ok I'm back, the RCC did not write Ps 51 God became flesh He was is still God.David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: Ps 51:5 "in sin did my mother conceive me." This is the purpose of the Virgin Birth that Jesus would not inherit a sin nature. He was not concieved in SIN you were!Your teaching here comes from Roman Catholicism. The Bible teaches theopposite, that Christ became flesh (1 John 4:2), that he was MADE OF AWOMAN (Galatians 4:4). The virgin birth was simply a sign according toIsaiah 7:14. Based upon the Bible, nothing more can be made of it. Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kevin wrote: Ps 51:5 in sin did my mother conceive me. This is the purpose of the Virgin Birth that Jesus would not inherit a sin nature. He was not concieved in SIN you were! DavidM: Your teaching here comes from Roman Catholicism. Judy: No the above isn't Roman Catholicism; they are the ones who fabricated the 'Immaculate Conception' so that Mary would not be able to pass down her sin nature because according to them she didn't have one. DavidM: The Bible teaches the opposite, that Christ became flesh (1 John 4:2), that he was MADE OF A WOMAN (Galatians 4:4). Judy: My Bible says He was 'born of a woman and born under the law' Big difference. Mary had nothing to do with His making. He was begotten of God and this is why the 'virgin birth' is important. The life of the flesh is in the blood. God made the first Adam out of the dust of the earth, then breathed into him the breath of life/blood. and he became a living soul. Apparently in human procreation it is the male sperm that generates the blood and the placenta protects the child with no blood passing between it and the mother. So Mary was the incubated the Lord of Glory and Jesus blood was holy from the start... DavidM: The virgin birth was simply a sign according to Isaiah 7:14. Based upon the Bible, nothing more can be made of it. Judy: It is good to qualify by saying - 'based upon what I know of the Bible nothing more can be made of it. Because there is much more to it. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy wrote: What I don't accept is Jesus being born with the spiritual inheritance left to the rest of us by the first Adam after his fall. DavidM: Spiritual inheritance? What is spiritual inheritance? How is ittransferred to us? Where does the Bible teach "spiritual inheritance"? Judy: Iniquity is a generational participation with sin bearing the same fruit. It shows up as inherited genetic disease and it shows up in a predisposition to personality characteristics such as molestation and doing crime, drugs, rage, anger, and fear. When the Jews of the dispersion returned to Jerusalem and found the book of the law. They stood and listened to it being read all day, and after they agreed to getrid of their foreign wives, they confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers. (Nehemiah 9:2) I wrote: Jesus did not have Adam's genes - DavidM: He most certainly did. The Bible teaches that he was made of the woman(Gal. 4:4), Judy: Born of the woman and born under the law (Gal 4:4); where do you get the idea the He was "MADE" of the woman? DavidM: was made flesh (John 1:14, Romans 1:13), Judy: Romans 1:13 says nothing about Jesus being "MADE" flesh; John 1:14 says the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory the glory of the ONLY begotten of the Father full of grace and truth. and Vs18 "No man has seen God at any time; the ONLY begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. So Jesus was BEGOTTEN, not MADE. DAVIDM: was begotten of Adam (Luke 3:22-38), and Jesus was truly, in truth, a mortal man being made the son of man (John 5:27, Luke 24:7). Judy: The geneaogy in Luke 3:23-38 is through Joseph and we all know that Joseph was not the biological Father of Jesus - this does not make Him a son of the first Adam, he was born of the woman. I wrote: He was created in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit. Is that too hard for God or is it just hard for us to accept? He is not the fruit of any fallen person's body. If God could create the first Adam full grown, why is it so hard to accept that God could create a baby in Mary's womb independent of Mary? Has science become our new god. It is not too hard for God to have created Jesus this way, but suchteaching is contrary to what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that Jesus was made of a woman and truly became flesh like the rest of us. He was not some alien from outer space. He was a mortal man just like the rest of us. Judy: Yes he was mortal in the sense that he had a full range of emotions and he got hungry and had to rest but he was not born with the fallen bloodline the rest of us are heir to. DavidM: Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise TOOK PART OF THE SAME; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily HE TOOK NOT ON HIM THE NATURE OF ANGELS; BUT HE TOOK ON HIM THE SEED OF ABRAHAM. Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted,he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:14-18 KJV) Judy: Phil 2:6,7 explains how he is MADE like his brethren ie: "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God but MADE HIMSELF of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death even the death of the cross" Yes He took flesh blood upon Himself and every sin known to humanity on the cross at Calvary so I would say He knows about sin first hand. "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN (Hebrews 4:15)For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sin; who can have compassion on the ignorant and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity; and by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins" (Hebrews 5:1-3). Conclusion:Jesus did not go beyond the veil with an offering for his own sin andHe was not compassed with generational sin/infirmity. DavidM: Believe the BIBLE, not the fairy tales told by the religious clergy. Judy: TT are the only 'religious clergy' I presently hear fairy tales from, but I will accept your counsel on this point... Grace and Peace, Judy
RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Kevin wrote: Ps 51:5 in sin did my mother conceive me. This is the purpose of the Virgin Birth that Jesus would not inherit a sin nature. He was not concieved in SIN you were! DavidM: Your teaching here comes from Roman Catholicism. Judy wrote: No the above isn't Roman Catholicism; they are the ones who fabricated the 'Immaculate Conception' so that Mary would not be able to pass down her sin nature because according to them she didn't have one. They fabricated the Immaculate Conception because in their effort to make Jesus not flesh they were cornered by the passages that showed Jesus being begotten of a woman. Therefore, they imagined the Immaculate Conception in order to keep their fantasy that Jesus was not really of the same flesh as the rest of us. Judy: My Bible says He was 'born of a woman and born under the law' Big difference. Mary had nothing to do with His making. He was begotten of God and this is why the 'virgin birth' is important. The Greek word translated made in the KJV and born in some of the modern translations is ginomai. It is the same word used in Mat. 4:3 when Satan tempted Jesus to make stones into bread. He said, command that these stones be MADE bread. It is the same word in 1 Cor. 15:45 where it says that the first man Adam was MADE a living soul. It is the same word in 21:42 translated as become, saying the stone ... is become the head of the corner. Jesus was of the seed of David and of the seed of Mary. Judy wrote: Apparently in human procreation it is the male sperm that generates the blood This is bogus. Somebody started repeating this lie again and again so that I hear it all the time but there is no biological truth to it. The blood develops from the mother, and it is genetically determined by both sperm and egg. Judy wrote: and the placenta protects the child with no blood passing between it and the mother. This is an over-emphasis, as the placental barrier is not perfect and the sex of the child may actually be determined from taking a blood sample of the mother and testing the blood cells from the unborn found therein. Judy: It is good to qualify by saying - 'based upon what I know of the Bible nothing more can be made of it. Because there is much more to it. The point was that the much more to it is from extra-Biblical sources. I'm not faulting that, but trying to make sure we keep the authorities separate in our minds. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kevin wrote: Ps 51:5 in sin did my mother conceive me. This is the purpose of the Virgin Birth that Jesus would not inherit a sin nature. He was not concieved in SIN you were! DavidM: Your teaching here comes from Roman Catholicism. Judy wrote: No the above isn't Roman Catholicism; they are the ones who fabricated the 'Immaculate Conception' so that Mary would not be able to pass down her sin nature because according to them she didn't have one. DavidM: They fabricated the Immaculate Conception because in their effort to make Jesus not flesh they were cornered by the passages that showed Jesus being begotten of a woman. Judy: He wasn't begotten of a woman He was born of a women and begotten of God. DavidM: Therefore, they imagined the Immaculate Conception in order to keep their fantasy that Jesus was not really of the same flesh as the rest of us. Judy: And he wasn't of the same flesh as the rest of us. He was made in the likeness of man - not the same as.. and He limited Himself by laying aside the glory He had with the Father during His earthly ministry. What made him different is that he didn't have the same inheritance in the first Adam as us. I wrote: My Bible says He was 'born of a woman and born under the law' Big difference. Mary had nothing to do with His making. He was begotten of God and this is why the 'virgin birth' is important. DavidM: The Greek word translated made in the KJV and born in some of the modern translations is ginomai. It is the same word used in Mat. 4:3 when Satan tempted Jesus to make stones into bread. He said, command that these stones be MADE bread. It is the same word in 1 Cor. 15:45 where it says that the first man Adam was MADE a living soul. It is the same word in 21:42 translated as become, saying the stone ... is become the head of the corner. Jesus was of the seed of David and of the seed of Mary. Judy wrote: Apparently in human procreation it is the male sperm that generates the blood DavidM: This is bogus. Somebody started repeating this lie again and again so that I hear it all the time but there is no biological truth to it. The blood develops from the mother, and it is genetically determined by both sperm and egg. Judy: The egg does nothing at all until united with sperm which comes from the father and blood begins to flow in the 3rd week before the heart begins to beat. No blood flows in an egg incubating all by itself because there is no life and the placenta protects the child with no blood passing between it and the mother. DavidM: This is an over-emphasis, as the placental barrier is not perfect and the sex of the child may actually be determined from taking a blood sample of the mother and testing the blood cells from the unborn found therein. Judy: Normally there is no blood interaction between mother and child. and today the sex of an unborn child is determined by ultrasound. Being RH- myself and having had four children I know how uncertain all of this is. Judy: It is good to qualify by saying - 'based upon what I know of the Bible nothing more can be made of it. Because there is much more to it. DavidM: The point was that the much more to it is from extra-Biblical sources. I'm not faulting that, but trying to make sure we keep the authorities separate in our minds. Judy: Not necessarily - are you saying that you know all there is to know about scripture DavidM? Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Blaine: I can't believe how you are
continually taking the words right out of my mouth, Kevin.
- Original Message -
From:
Kevin
Deegan
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 9:30
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the
same sinful flesh that we have
Your eternal destiny is not a laughiong matter.Blaine
Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Blaine: You are getting funnier and
funnier!! ROTFL!
- Original Message -
From:
Kevin Deegan
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 8:50
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had
the same sinful flesh that we have
You just made this up...
There is no such thing as Potential sin
All that Potential sin in your heart Gods says it IS SIN not
potential sin
God looks on the heart.
mt 9;4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
There is no such thing as accomplished sin
Acts 8;22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the
thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
REPENT of your WICKED IMAGINATION
God Hates Prov 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations
Jer 17;9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and
desperately wicked: who can know it?
Prov 15:26 The thoughts
of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD
Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Blaine:
I started this, I think--Judy seems to be having a difficult
timeaccepting that there is a difference between the potential for
sin andaccomplished sin. Jesus had the potential for sin--otherwise
the devilwould not have taken him up on the high mtn to tempt him.
Jesus did notsuccomb, either then or ever afterwards--or before,
however..- Original Message - From:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent:
Sunday, January 18, 2004 3:09 AMSubject: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the
same sinful flesh that we have From: "David Miller"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy wrote: Jesus had no
inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the
woman. DavidM: The woman Mary was descended from
Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had
inheritance<BR! !> in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to
Adam). Judy: I am speaking of spiritual
inheritance which is different and spiritual inheritance always
comes through the Father. Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he
was not born of fornication, neither was his spiritual
inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that
transgressed (he chose to sin after the woman was deceived) and
God held both accountable. (Rom 5:14).
DavidM: We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same
flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the
same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted
in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1
John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy: Being tempted
proves nothing and is not sin. God allows everything He creates
to be tested. If Jesus had an inheritance in the first ! ! Adam
he would have been born spiritually dead like the rest of us and
He would have had to have been 'born again' just like the rest
of us also. but he was very much alive to the voice of the
Father even at age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in
Israel. Grace adn Peace, Judy
-- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with
salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man."
(Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you
do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email
to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you
have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail
to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be
subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with
grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer
every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org<BR!>If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter
the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter
the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman. DavidM: The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam). Judy: I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is different and spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father. Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born of fornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he chose to sin after the woman was deceived) and God held both accountable. (Rom 5:14). DavidM: We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy: Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allows everything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had an inheritance in the first Adam he would have been born spiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have had to have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also. but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father even at age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel. Grace adn Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Ps 51:5 "in sin did my mother conceive me." This is the purpose of the Virgin Birth that Jesus would not inherit a sin nature. He was not concieved in SIN you were![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman.DavidM:The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam).Judy:I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is differentand spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father.Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born offornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he choseto sin after the woman was deceived) and God held bothaccountable. (Rom 5:14).DavidM:We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy:Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allowseverything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had aninheritance in the first Adam he would have been bornspiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have hadto have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also.but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father evenat age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel.Grace adn Peace,Judy--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Kevin, Once more, if this is for me .. I'm with you - and yes in sin did my mother conceive me.. but the first Adam wasn't conceived. He was created full grown, yet he was tempted and he sinned. Jesus was tempted in the same points and he overcame to become the perfect sacrifice. Hallelujah!! From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ps 51:5 "in sin did my mother conceive me." This is the purpose of the Virgin Birth that Jesus would not inherit a sin nature. He was not concieved in SIN you were![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman.DavidM:The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam).Judy:I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is differentand spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father.Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born offornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he choseto sin after the woman was deceived) and God held bothaccountable. (Rom 5:14).DavidM:We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy:Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allowseverything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had aninheritance in the first Adam he would have been bornspiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have hadto have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also.but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father evenat age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel.Grace adn Peace,Judy--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Right Adam was NOT Concieved BUT he passed His SIN nature on through conception He was the 1st adam because he chose sin rm 5:12 by one man sin entered the world and death by sin and so death passed upon ALL men. Jesus was the second Adam because he rejected sin. He was RIGHTEOUSNESS in the Flesh! The testing just showed what they were made of! Adam through DISOBEDIENCE made MANY sinners Rm 5:19 Jesus through OBEDIENCE made MANY Righteous! Rm 5:19 When a engineer stress tests a weld it shows what qualities, it is made of. If Jesus had a sin nature a test would confirm the same. Instead 1 JN 3:5 IN HIM was NO SIN! Tiny deformities not apparent to visual inspection, nevertheless lie embedded in a poor weld. A stress test makes these deformities obvious. Sin is similar, you may observe or you may not. Sin is not always an outward action. Thoughts can be sin, these you can not see. Jesus taught that to harbor hate in your heart is to be guilty of Murder! Paul said whatsoever is NOT of FAITH is SIN. 1Tim 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. Prov 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD JESUS is OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS PTL! No bad thoughts NO CARNAL mind![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin, Once more, if this is for me .. I'm with you - and yes in sin did my mother conceive me.. but the first Adam wasn't conceived. He was created full grown, yet he was tempted and he sinned. Jesus was tempted in the same points and he overcame to become the perfect sacrifice. Hallelujah!! [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ps 51:5 "in sin did my mother conceive me." This is the purpose of the Virgin Birth that Jesus would not inherit a sin nature. He was not concieved in SIN you were![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman.DavidM:The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam).Judy:I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is differentand spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father.Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born offornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he choseto sin after the woman was deceived) and God held bothaccountable. (Rom 5:14).DavidM:We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy:Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allowseverything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had aninheritance in the first Adam he would have been bornspiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have hadto have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also.but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father evenat age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel.Grace adn Peace,Judy--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Blaine: I started this, I think--Judy seems to be having a difficult time accepting that there is a difference between the potential for sin and accomplished sin. Jesus had the potential for sin--otherwise the devil would not have taken him up on the high mtn to tempt him. Jesus did not succomb, either then or ever afterwards--or before, however.. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 3:09 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman. DavidM: The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam). Judy: I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is different and spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father. Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born of fornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he chose to sin after the woman was deceived) and God held both accountable. (Rom 5:14). DavidM: We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy: Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allows everything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had an inheritance in the first Adam he would have been born spiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have had to have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also. but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father even at age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel. Grace adn Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
You just made this up... There is no such thing as Potential sin All that Potential sin in your heart Gods says it IS SIN not potential sin God looks on the heart. mt 9;4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? There is no such thing as accomplished sin Acts 8;22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. REPENT of your WICKED IMAGINATION God Hates Prov 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations Jer 17;9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Prov 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: I started this, I think--Judy seems to be having a difficult timeaccepting that there is a difference between the potential for sin andaccomplished sin. Jesus had the potential for sin--otherwise the devilwould not have taken him up on the high mtn to tempt him. Jesus did notsuccomb, either then or ever afterwards--or before, however..- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 3:09 AMSubject: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman. DavidM: The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam). Judy: I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is different and spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father. Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born of fornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he chose to sin after the woman was deceived) and God held both accountable. (Rom 5:14). DavidM: We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy: Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allows everything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had an inheritance in the first Adam he would have been born spiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have had to have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also. but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father even at age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel. Grace adn Peace, Judy -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www..InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Blaine: You are getting funnier and funnier!! ROTFL! - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have You just made this up... There is no such thing as Potential sin All that Potential sin in your heart Gods says it IS SIN not potential sin God looks on the heart. mt 9;4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? There is no such thing as accomplished sin Acts 8;22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. REPENT of your WICKED IMAGINATION God Hates Prov 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations Jer 17;9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Prov 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: I started this, I think--Judy seems to be having a difficult timeaccepting that there is a difference between the potential for sin andaccomplished sin. Jesus had the potential for sin--otherwise the devilwould not have taken him up on the high mtn to tempt him. Jesus did notsuccomb, either then or ever afterwards--or before, however..- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 3:09 AMSubject: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman. DavidM: The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance<BR!> in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam). Judy: I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is different and spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father. Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born of fornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he chose to sin after the woman was deceived) and God held both accountable. (Rom 5:14). DavidM: We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy: Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allows everything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had an inheritance in the first ! Adam he would have been born spiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have had to have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also. but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father even at age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel. Grace adn Peace, Judy -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www...InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Your eternal destiny is not a laughiong matter.Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: You are getting funnier and funnier!! ROTFL! - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have You just made this up... There is no such thing as Potential sin All that Potential sin in your heart Gods says it IS SIN not potential sin God looks on the heart. mt 9;4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? There is no such thing as accomplished sin Acts 8;22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. REPENT of your WICKED IMAGINATION God Hates Prov 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations Jer 17;9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Prov 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: I started this, I think--Judy seems to be having a difficult timeaccepting that there is a difference between the potential for sin andaccomplished sin. Jesus had the potential for sin--otherwise the devilwould not have taken him up on the high mtn to tempt him. Jesus did notsuccomb, either then or ever afterwards--or before, however..- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 3:09 AMSubject: [TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman. DavidM: The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance<BR!> in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam). Judy: I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is different and spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father. Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born of fornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he chose to sin after the woman was deceived) and God held both accountable. (Rom 5:14). DavidM: We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy: Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allows everything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had an inheritance in the first ! Adam he would have been born spiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have had to have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also. but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father even at age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel. Grace adn Peace, Judy -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://wwwInnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman. The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam). We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
