Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
And absolutely no one disagrees with this -- but if this means that it is not included, that disciple hasmissed an aspect of worship that is of God's design. Jd-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:47:15 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Obesity AND worship is not always done in the throes of ecstasy. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Friday, June 03, 2005 7:10 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity From here, his point seems to be that you do not need a community to worship, or a building, or a pastor/priest. Job, by the way, is just one of many examples of this.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And your point -- that we must shave our heads, worship flat on the groundwhile tearing our clothing? ?? JD -Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:48:49 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity JOB And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daugh ters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a grea t wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good comments. My wife and I do not look to songs for didache -- rather we score high a service that allows us to praise God and give Him His righteous due. Perhaps reflective of how we approach the Faith in total. JD -Original Message-From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs I sing have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy, where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart when I sang them. This one song had a line "You can offer her anything her affections are all for Him only," that showed me how I should desire my God. Though I wouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, as quoted in Lance's post, I do love worship! Blessings! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality "...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our "church of choice" is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Oh, I can heartedly agree. We have made church a spectator sport. But the larger assemblies are not all bad. Jd-Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:23:01 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: tERRY -- YOU ARE NO MORE p.o.ED WITHT EH CHURCH TAHN i AM -- but you might rethink your comments in view of the following: Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together -- encouraging one another to love and good works. Heb 10:25 .. breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of hear. acts 2:46 We are to share in the worship of song -- a group thing. Eph 5:18-20 Speaking the truth in love, we are to grow upin all aspects into Him the whole body (read:church) being fitted and held together for the building up of itself (the church) in love Eph 4:15,16. I could go on, but you know these scriptures better than I. If for no other reason, "ye who are spiritual help those who are weak" can be a reason to attend. We (my wife and I ) have our times when we do not attend but we are always benefitted insome when we are there. After all, "church" was God's big idea !! JD==I am not down on church,John. We attend regularly. We just do it from house to house like the scriptures say some of the early believers did. We share a meal and afterward we play Bereans, sing songs, the whole works. You should try it. It sure beats staring at the back of the heads in the pew in front of you while one guy gives his spiel and everyone else tries to stay awake.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Terry wrote: Possibly you are correct, but I see Paul as more of a transient evangelist or missionary than as a resident elder/pastor/priest ... I agree. In such situations, it is natural for the group to be more passive and want to hear him exclusively before he leaves. Terry wrote: Seems funny that when he gives details as to why the saints come together it is never to hear a sermon. Actually, he does tell the saints that they come together to GIVE a sermon, and such implies that there will be some there to HEAR a sermon. :-) 1 Corinthians 14:26 (26) How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. Notice the word doctrine in this list of what the Corinthian believers were doing when the whole church comes together. This is teaching -- a sermon. However, I think in this case, more interaction is involved than is found in the typical Christian congregation on a Sunday morning. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
DAVEH:Service? Charles Perry Locke wrote: Are there any other types of worship than singing songs? Perry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
I don't know about your case but maybe you do need a rest.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I rest my case !!! JD-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:42:22 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity NO ain't you been to the Mecca? down in the Holla were the snake handler's go.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having trouble with the phrase "do you know what I mean by "sinless" perfection?" JD-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:44:39 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity do you know what I mean by "sinless perfectionism?" Your definition or the standard, which do you want? It is some kinda KENtuckee snake handler![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why suddenly so concerned for the truth, Deegan? do you know what I mean by "sinless perfectionism?" Jd-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:16:17 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity You are accusing him of something he has never professed. Standard "fair" for this crowd! Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:25:57 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are such a bore, David. If one eats nearly all the time -- postponement is a good thing. If one thinks to stop at Burger King for the third time today, postponement is a good thing. And it is noteating more often, David; it is eating smaller meals more often -- postponement working again. If I think to eat a candy bar afterhours, postponement is a good thing. What is wrong with you ppl - you break the Royal Law so far as David Miller is concerned daily. Where's the love?? You are quick to throw out everything but Christ's two commandments and you break both on a daily basis. And why do I think it will workwith sin -- because I am told that if I flee youthful lusts, I will have victory -- on any occasion thaI I do this, a victorywill be mine. The addict, if not miraculously delivered (and most[say 99%] are not), his only hope is sin management -- postponement. If the postponement is successful, he can build on that success. This must be where your "incarnational gospel" fails. Jesus did not go to the cross for "sin management" He defeated sin andfreed us fromit's inheritance, power, and presence ... However, this reality seems to threaten you. " ... who do not sin ." No one on this list fits that description, David -- lest of which is you. Let me make myself clear: THE number one reason why I do not believe in sinless perfectionism is YOU. That's it. You are accusing him of something he has never professed. I have read DM's views on sin and have seen him admit that he misses it, repents and goes on. When consistent that sin should eventually fall away. Why do you persist in accusing him? The blood of bulls and goats covered sin which was a type of sin management. The blood of Christ remits them. Big difference. You is the reason for the season.I think it funny that you equate "humility" with my giving attention to you or people like you. Arrogance, pride and conceit plague us all, don't they David? You may speak for yourself - otherwise all you are doing is becoming the devil's advocate JD. Back to "postponement." Eatng is not my only issue -- and the management principle has, in deed, worked in a number of areas in my life. JD Management does not get rid of the problem. This is what Israel thought they would do when God told them to get rid of the Canaanite Nations. They partially obeyed but decided to allow some to stay and be water carriers for them and these enemies rose up and bit them in the rear end. Something to think about. jt -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:43:36 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity John wrote: I was illustrating "sin management," David. Who said anything about slowing down ones metabolism? No me. But let's stay on track and avoid a food fight. You were using the problem of obesity to illustrate the value of sin management. You used the postponement of eating as an analogy to validate the concept of postponing sin. Well, if it does not work for fat people, why do you think it will work with sin? Let's just say that I was drawing upon your analogy for two reasons: 1) to help anyone struggling with being overweight, and 2) to illustrate that your teaching concerning sin is probably about just as effective as your success in managing your weight. Look, you have told us often that you are fat and that you continue to sin. Why do you presume to teach us how to manage these issues? Don't you think a little more humility is in order? How about trying to hear a little more fro
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
No sense in wasting the keystrokes you would not get it. Just like you don't get the Bible. Prov 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And your point -- that we must shave our heads, worship flat on the groundwhile tearing our clothing? ?? JD-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:48:49 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity JOB And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a grea t wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good comments. My wife and I do not look to songs for didache -- rather we score high a service that allows us to praise God and give Him His righteous due. Perhaps reflective of how we approach the Faith in total. JD-Original Message-From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs I sing have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy, where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart when I sang them. This one song had a line "You can offer her anything her affections are all for Him only," that showed me how I should desire my God. Though I wouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, as quoted in Lance's post, I do love worship! Blessings! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality "...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our "church of choice" is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list,
RE: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Not at all, Dave! I'm sitting here having my 3:00 am coffee and toast (with a bit of blackberry jam from the Amish) while entertaining myself at JD's expense on TT. :-) Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Hansen Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:59 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity DAVEH: Maybe so, but won't eating every 3 hours interrupt reading TT posts several times each night?!?!?! :-) David Miller wrote: The right response to getting fat is to eat more frequently. Eating a meal about every 3 hours will cause the body's metabolism to speed up and the storage of fat becomes less necessary. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Izzy wrote: Yum!!! Can we have dessert first? LOL. Well, there are other factors to controlling fat accumulation, such as learning to eat the right foods that burn slowly, and doing a little bit of exercise several times a week for those who tend to live sedentary lives. Learning to eat the right foods leads to a mental reconditioning so that some kinds of high sugar or high fat foods are no longer appetizing. Nevertheless, there is no problem with starting with dessert! How about one of my favorites: frozen yogurt. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
One out of two ain't bad, David. When you go to the second hand store for a new suit, do you ask for a 44 long? Rather than having this sin conversation one more time we'll just agree to disagree. You just spoke the other day of the remnants of human nature even in such as yourself. Let's just say that those 'remnants' find an opportunity for expression every single day of your life. You eat every day, you breath every day and, you 'remnant' every day. By the by David, I'm not calling YOU a liar. However, I am, once again, calling you self deceived. You remind me of John Nash in 'A Beautiful Mind' excepting your delusions are smaller than his. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: June 03, 2005 06:43 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity John wrote: I was illustrating sin management, David. Who said anything about slowing down ones metabolism? No me. But let's stay on track and avoid a food fight. You were using the problem of obesity to illustrate the value of sin management. You used the postponement of eating as an analogy to validate the concept of postponing sin. Well, if it does not work for fat people, why do you think it will work with sin? Let's just say that I was drawing upon your analogy for two reasons: 1) to help anyone struggling with being overweight, and 2) to illustrate that your teaching concerning sin is probably about just as effective as your success in managing your weight. Look, you have told us often that you are fat and that you continue to sin. Why do you presume to teach us how to manage these issues? Don't you think a little more humility is in order? How about trying to hear a little more from those on the list who are not fat and who do not sin? Or are you going to reject the idea that some people on the list are not fat, just as you reject the idea that some people on this list do not continue to sin? Humility, John, humility. Is that too much to ask? Not everybody on the list is fat, and not everybody on the list sins. In other words, not everybody is just like you. Think about that, and think about how such facts should flavor the way you communicate on this list. More humility is in order here. Spoken firmly in love, wishing you only the best in Christ, David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
You are such a bore, David. If one eats nearly all the time -- postponement is a good thing. If one thinks to stop at Burger King for the third time today, postponement is a good thing. And it is noteating more often, David; it is eating smaller meals more often -- postponement working again. If I think to eat a candy bar afterhours, postponement is a good thing. And why do I think it will workwith sin -- because I am told that if I flee youthful lusts, I will have victory -- on any occasion thaI I do this, a victorywill be mine. The addict, if not miraculously delivered (and most[say 99%] are not), his only hope is sin management -- postponement. If the postponement is successful, he can build on that success. " ... who do not sin ." No one on this list fits that description, David -- lest of which is you. Let me make myself clear: THE number one reason why I do not believe in sinless perfectionism is YOU. That's it. You is the reason for the season.I think it funny that you equate "humility" with my giving attention to you or people like you. Arrogance, pride and conceit plague us all, don't they David? Back to "postponement." Eatng is not my only issue -- and the management principle has, in deed, worked in a number of areas in my life. JD -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:43:36 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity John wrote: I was illustrating "sin management," David. Who said anything about slowing down ones metabolism? No me. But let's stay on track and avoid a food fight. You were using the problem of obesity to illustrate the value of sin management. You used the postponement of eating as an analogy to validate the concept of postponing sin. Well, if it does not work for fat people, why do you think it will work with sin? Let's just say that I was drawing upon your analogy for two reasons: 1) to help anyone struggling with being overweight, and 2) to illustrate that your teaching concerning sin is probably about just as effective as your success in managing your weight. Look, you have told us often that you are fat and that you continue to sin. Why do you presume to teach us how to manage these issues? Don't you think a little more humility is in order? How about trying to hear a little more from those on the list who are not fat and who do not sin? Or are you going to reject the idea that some people on the list are not fat, just as you reject the idea that some people on this list do not continue to sin? Humility, John, humility. Is that too much to ask? Not everybody on the list is fat, and not everybody on the list sins. In other words, not everybody is just like you. Think about that, and think about how such facts should flavor the way you communicate on this list. More humility is in order here. Spoken firmly in love, wishing you only the best in Christ, David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Lance wrote: I am, once again, calling you self deceived. I'm tempted to hear you, Lance, because a man who has deceived himself would not know it unless someone pointed it out to him. The problems associated with me accepting what you say is 1) the person Jesus Christ, 2) the Scriptures which you do not seem to hold in high regard, and 3) my experience in life with having victory over sin. Could it be that I am deceived? I suppose so, but if so, then Jesus Christ and the Scriptures are the ones who deceived me. I think that is a problem with me hearing you on this matter. Lance wrote: You eat every day, you breath every day and, you 'remnant' every day. You have, in the past, agreed with the idea of the Incarnation, that Christ was made flesh and thereby condemned sin in the flesh. Well, Jesus ate every day (when he was not fasting), he breathed every day, and, well... did Jesus also 'remnant' every day? This is not a rhetorical question. I would like an answer. I want to understand you and I consider your charge that I deceive myself very seriously. I am thinking right now of a science project I did in high school in which I deceived myself. I designed what I thought was a high efficiency engine without accounting for efficiency problems with the conductivity of wires and heat loss to the atmosphere. In essence, I deceived myself into a false concept, and yet nobody, not my science teacher nor anybody else tried to help me see the problem. I received an A for the project and even received a top award from the Army for that science project at a science fair. It was not any of my teachers, nor any of the judges, nor any qualified person who helped me understand the problem. I had this gnawing notion that something was wrong, but I could not put my finger on it. Then one unknown man walked up, looked at it with interest, then insulted me by telling me that it flat out would not work. I asked him why. He took time to explain it to me, and although I initially raised objections to what he was saying, he kept answering with good answers until he had communicated enough that I suddenly understood the problem and realized how worthless my whole science project was. That was a good experience for me, because I realize that we cannot judge truth by what passes under the nose of those in authority over us. I also learned that we can deceive ourselves if we fail to consider just one little important fact. If you have that fact about this issue, I will try hard to see it, but if you don't, then perhaps you are the one who is deceived about there not being victory over sin through faith in Jesus Christ. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Now JD, don't get critical with David just because he approached the problem a different way. You are attributing obesity to gluttony and he is saying that there are other reasons for a person to be overweight, and that a slow metabolism is one of them. So what is wrong with that? I happen to believe that it can go even deeper than this to the fear and anxiety response of fight or flight where the body releases excessive amounts of cortisol. There is some truth to that aggravating "belly fat" commercial - their explanation for it that is not their product. Amazing how just as soon as something is understood it is being marketed. It is just as important to judge with "righteous judgment" If I look at every fat ppl and believe in my heart that they are gluttons I have violated the Royal Law. judyt On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:19:26 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was illustrating "sin management," David. Who said anything about slowing down ones metabolism? No me. But let's stay on track and avoid a food fight. JD From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]John wrote: Fat people (and I suspect there are more fat people on this forum than one would suppose) victimize themselves with the addiction of gluttony. Sin Management teaches them that this is destructive behavior (ala "sin") and encourages them to modify or postpone their eating .If there are fat people on this list, I would like to comment on this to help those fat people. Postponing eating is probably one of the worse things a fat person can do. The body has a natural response to postponed eating. It slows down your metabolism. Then when you do eat, more of what you eat is stored as fat. The cycle worsens with more postponing of eating because your body anticipates long periods between meals. It stores more and more fat as your metabolism slows down more and more.The right response to getting fat is to eat more frequently. Eating a meal about every 3 hours will cause the body's metabolism to speed up and the storage of fat becomes less necessary.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:25:57 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are such a bore, David. If one eats nearly all the time -- postponement is a good thing. If one thinks to stop at Burger King for the third time today, postponement is a good thing. And it is noteating more often, David; it is eating smaller meals more often -- postponement working again. If I think to eat a candy bar afterhours, postponement is a good thing. What is wrong with you ppl - you break the Royal Law so far as David Miller is concerned daily. Where's the love?? You are quick to throw out everything but Christ's two commandments and you break both on a daily basis. And why do I think it will workwith sin -- because I am told that if I flee youthful lusts, I will have victory -- on any occasion thaI I do this, a victorywill be mine. The addict, if not miraculously delivered (and most[say 99%] are not), his only hope is sin management -- postponement. If the postponement is successful, he can build on that success. This must be where your "incarnational gospel" fails. Jesus did not go to the cross for "sin management" He defeated sin andfreed us fromit's inheritance, power, and presence ... However, this reality seems to threaten you. " ... who do not sin ." No one on this list fits that description, David -- lest of which is you. Let me make myself clear: THE number one reason why I do not believe in sinless perfectionism is YOU. That's it. You are accusing him of something he has never professed. I have read DM's views on sin and have seen him admit that he misses it, repents and goes on. When consistent that sin should eventually fall away. Why do you persist in accusing him? The blood of bulls and goats covered sin which was a type of sin management. The blood of Christ remits them. Big difference. You is the reason for the season.I think it funny that you equate "humility" with my giving attention to you or people like you. Arrogance, pride and conceit plague us all, don't they David? You may speak for yourself - otherwise all you are doing is becoming the devil's advocate JD. Back to "postponement." Eatng is not my only issue -- and the management principle has, in deed, worked in a number of areas in my life. JD Management does not get rid of the problem. This is what Israel thought they would do when God told them to get rid of the Canaanite Nations. They partially obeyed but decided to allow some to stay and be water carriers for them and these enemies rose up and bit them in the rear end. Something to think about. jt -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:43:36 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity John wrote: I was illustrating "sin management," David. Who said anything about slowing down ones metabolism? No me. But let's stay on track and avoid a food fight. You were using the problem of obesity to illustrate the value of sin management. You used the postponement of eating as an analogy to validate the concept of postponing sin. Well, if it does not work for fat people, why do you think it will work with sin? Let's just say that I was drawing upon your analogy for two reasons: 1) to help anyone struggling with being overweight, and 2) to illustrate that your teaching concerning sin is probably about just as effective as your success in managing your weight. Look, you have told us often that you are fat and that you continue to sin. Why do you presume to teach us how to manage these issues? Don't you think a little more humility is in order? How about trying to hear a little more from those on the list who are not fat and who do not sin? Or are you going to reject the idea that some people on the list are not fat, just as you reject the idea that some people on this list do not continue to sin? Humility, John, humility. Is that too much to ask? Not everybody on the list is fat, and not everybody on the list sins. In other words, not everybody is just like you. Think about that, and think about how such facts should flavor the way you communicate on this list. More humility is in order here. Spoken firmly in love, wishing you only the best in Christ, David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
John wrote: If one eats nearly all the time -- postponement is a good thing. Well, that certainly is true. If someone is eating all the time, he needs to stop that. John wrote: If one thinks to stop at Burger King for the third time today, postponement is a good thing. But it would be better not to eat at Burger King at all. That is better than postponement. John wrote: And it is not eating more often, David; it is eating smaller meals more often -- postponement working again. In my experience with eating frequently, smaller meals comes naturally. But maybe you mean discipline more than postponement. We should lead discplined lives, but postponing to do what is bad for us is not a solution to the problem. It is better to recognize what is bad and stop it. John wrote: If I think to eat a candy bar after hours, postponement is a good thing. Eating a candy bar after hours would be worse than eating a candy bar earlier in the day. The better solution is to skip the candy bar entirely. You don't need it if it is not good for you. If eating it in moderation is healthy, then go ahead, but is sin in moderation a good thing or a bad thing? Who needs sin? John wrote: And why do I think it will work with sin -- because I am told that if I flee youthful lusts, I will have victory Right... FLEE youthful lusts, not postpone them. The whole idea of describing them as youthful is the idea that they should be put away, the same way an adult no longer desires to play with toys like children do. When a man flees youthful lusts, he will develop character that is not lustful. Do you agree? John wrote: The addict, if not miraculously delivered (and most [say 99%] are not), his only hope is sin management -- postponement. I've worked with a lot of addicts, John. This works about as well as diets work for the obese. They always fall back into it and the addictions become worse than they were before. I will hear Terry on this matter over you. He speaks from the experience of success. I don't know where you get the 99% failure figure from. We certainly have greater success than that with addicts. John wrote: If the postponement is successful, he can build on that success. Theoretically, but how much success have you had with this postponement method? How many addicts are no longer addicts? How long did it take them to move from postponement to elimination? John wrote: THE number one reason why I do not believe in sinless perfectionism is YOU. Again, I repeat, I do not believe in sinless perfectionism. If you cannot understand what I believe or how I live, why do you use me as an excuse to continue in sin? Are you sure you are not saying this to try and insult me? You have planted that idea in my head with a recent post. John wrote: That's it. You is the reason for the season. I think it funny that you equate humility with my giving attention to you or people like you. Arrogance, pride and conceit plague us all, don't they David? Yes, and some of us have victory over these things while others try and massage their conscience that nothing more can be done than what is already being done. John wrote: Back to postponement. Eatng is not my only issue -- and the management principle has, in deed, worked in a number of areas in my life. Well, if not in fat management, what areas do you have in mind? I'm not completely against the concept. I just don't see that it works with either fat or sin. So tell us, in what areas have you had success with it? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Judy Taylor wrote: Jesus did not go to the cross for "sin management" He defeated sin andfreed us fromit's inheritance, power, and presence . === Beautifil! Puts it all into perspective with a minimum of words.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
You are accusing him of something he has never professed. Standard "fair" for this crowd! Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:25:57 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are such a bore, David. If one eats nearly all the time -- postponement is a good thing. If one thinks to stop at Burger King for the third time today, postponement is a good thing. And it is noteating more often, David; it is eating smaller meals more often -- postponement working again. If I think to eat a candy bar afterhours, postponement is a good thing. What is wrong with you ppl - you break the Royal Law so far as David Miller is concerned daily. Where's the love?? You are quick to throw out everything but Christ's two commandments and you break both on a daily basis. And why do I think it will workwith sin -- because I am told that if I flee youthful lusts, I will have victory -- on any occasion thaI I do this, a victorywill be mine. The addict, if not miraculously delivered (and most[say 99%] are not), his only hope is sin management -- postponement. If the postponement is successful, he can build on that success. This must be where your "incarnational gospel" fails. Jesus did not go to the cross for "sin management" He defeated sin andfreed us fromit's inheritance, power, and presence ... However, this reality seems to threaten you. " ... who do not sin ." No one on this list fits that description, David -- lest of which is you. Let me make myself clear: THE number one reason why I do not believe in sinless perfectionism is YOU. That's it. You are accusing him of something he has never professed. I have read DM's views on sin and have seen him admit that he misses it, repents and goes on. When consistent that sin should eventually fall away. Why do you persist in accusing him? The blood of bulls and goats covered sin which was a type of sin management. The blood of Christ remits them. Big difference. You is the reason for the season.I think it funny that you equate "humility" with my giving attention to you or people like you. Arrogance, pride and conceit plague us all, don't they David? You may speak for yourself - otherwise all you are doing is becoming the devil's advocate JD. Back to "postponement." Eatng is not my only issue -- and the management principle has, in deed, worked in a number of areas in my life. JD Management does not get rid of the problem. This is what Israel thought they would do when God told them to get rid of the Canaanite Nations. They partially obeyed but decided to allow some to stay and be water carriers for them and these enemies rose up and bit them in the rear end. Something to think about. jt -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:43:36 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity John wrote: I was illustrating "sin management," David. Who said anything about slowing down ones metabolism? No me. But let's stay on track and avoid a food fight. You were using the problem of obesity to illustrate the value of sin management. You used the postponement of eating as an analogy to validate the concept of postponing sin. Well, if it does not work for fat people, why do you think it will work with sin? Let's just say that I was drawing upon your analogy for two reasons: 1) to help anyone struggling with being overweight, and 2) to illustrate that your teaching concerning sin is probably about just as effective as your success in managing your weight. Look, you have told us often that you are fat and that you continue to sin. Why do you presume to teach us how to manage these issues? Don't you think a little more humility is in order? How about trying to hear a little more from those on the list who are not fat and who do not sin? Or are you going to reject the idea that some people on the list are not fat, just as you reject the idea that some people on this list do not continue to sin? Humility, John, humility. Is that too much to ask? Not everybody on the list is fat, and not everybody on the list sins. In other words, not everybody is just like you. Think about that, and think about how such facts should flavor the way you communicate on this list. More humility is in order here. Spoken firmly in love, wishing you only the best in Christ, David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
While both acknowledging the possibility of and, supplying us with an personal life illustration for, self-decpetion yet does David argue against it's application to himself personally for reasons of: 1. The Person of Christ 2. Scripture 3. Personal experience Jesus never cooperated with sin though born fully human. You, David, cooperate (present tense) with the principle of sin (fallen nature). Having heard some of your 'story' it'd appear that is is less of a cooperative venture than it used to be. IMO no part of scripture hints at the possibility of a state of being where such cooperation willy fully cease. This being the case, IMO, you misread your personal experience and, therefore are self-deceived. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: June 03, 2005 07:50 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity Lance wrote: I am, once again, calling you self deceived. I'm tempted to hear you, Lance, because a man who has deceived himself would not know it unless someone pointed it out to him. The problems associated with me accepting what you say is 1) the person Jesus Christ, 2) the Scriptures which you do not seem to hold in high regard, and 3) my experience in life with having victory over sin. Could it be that I am deceived? I suppose so, but if so, then Jesus Christ and the Scriptures are the ones who deceived me. I think that is a problem with me hearing you on this matter. Lance wrote: You eat every day, you breath every day and, you 'remnant' every day. You have, in the past, agreed with the idea of the Incarnation, that Christ was made flesh and thereby condemned sin in the flesh. Well, Jesus ate every day (when he was not fasting), he breathed every day, and, well... did Jesus also 'remnant' every day? This is not a rhetorical question. I would like an answer. I want to understand you and I consider your charge that I deceive myself very seriously. I am thinking right now of a science project I did in high school in which I deceived myself. I designed what I thought was a high efficiency engine without accounting for efficiency problems with the conductivity of wires and heat loss to the atmosphere. In essence, I deceived myself into a false concept, and yet nobody, not my science teacher nor anybody else tried to help me see the problem. I received an A for the project and even received a top award from the Army for that science project at a science fair. It was not any of my teachers, nor any of the judges, nor any qualified person who helped me understand the problem. I had this gnawing notion that something was wrong, but I could not put my finger on it. Then one unknown man walked up, looked at it with interest, then insulted me by telling me that it flat out would not work. I asked him why. He took time to explain it to me, and although I initially raised objections to what he was saying, he kept answering with good answers until he had communicated enough that I suddenly understood the problem and realized how worthless my whole science project was. That was a good experience for me, because I realize that we cannot judge truth by what passes under the nose of those in authority over us. I also learned that we can deceive ourselves if we fail to consider just one little important fact. If you have that fact about this issue, I will try hard to see it, but if you don't, then perhaps you are the one who is deceived about there not being victory over sin through faith in Jesus Christ. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Why suddenly so concerned for the truth, Deegan? do you know what I mean by "sinless perfectionism?" Jd-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:16:17 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity You are accusing him of something he has never professed. Standard "fair" for this crowd! Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:25:57 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are such a bore, David. If one eats nearly all the time -- postponement is a good thing. If one thinks to stop at Burger King for the third time today, postponement is a good thing. And it is noteating more often, David; it is eating smaller meals more often -- postponement working again. If I think to eat a candy bar afterhours, postponement is a good thing. What is wrong with you ppl - you break the Royal Law so far as David Miller is concerned daily. Where's the love?? You are quick to throw out everything but Christ's two commandments and you break both on a daily basis. And why do I think it will workwith sin -- because I am told that if I flee youthful lusts, I will have victory -- on any occasion thaI I do this, a victorywill be mine. The addict, if not miraculously delivered (and most[say 99%] are not), his only hope is sin management -- postponement. If the postponement is successful, he can build on that success. This must be where your "incarnational gospel" fails. Jesus did not go to the cross for "sin management" He defeated sin andfreed us fromit's inheritance, power, and presence ... However, this reality seems to threaten you. " ... who do not sin ." No one on this list fits that description, David -- lest of which is you. Let me make myself clear: THE number one reason why I do not believe in sinless perfectionism is YOU. That's it. You are accusing him of something he has never professed. I have read DM's views on sin and have seen him admit that he misses it, repents and goes on. When consistent that sin should eventually fall away. Why do you persist in accusing him? The blood of bulls and goats covered sin which was a type of sin management. The blood of Christ remits them. Big difference. You is the reason for the season.I think it funny that you equate "humility" with my giving attention to you or people like you. Arrogance, pride and conceit plague us all, don't they David? You may speak for yourself - otherwise all you are doing is becoming the devil's advocate JD. Back to "postponement." Eatng is not my only issue -- and the management principle has, in deed, worked in a number of areas in my life. JD Management does not get rid of the problem. This is what Israel thought they would do when God told them to get rid of the Canaanite Nations. They partially obeyed but decided to allow some to stay and be water carriers for them and these enemies rose up and bit them in the rear end. Something to think about. jt -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:43:36 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity John wrote: I was illustrating "sin management," David. Who said anything about slowing down ones metabolism? No me. But let's stay on track and avoid a food fight. You were using the problem of obesity to illustrate the value of sin management. You used the postponement of eating as an analogy to validate the concept of postponing sin. Well, if it does not work for fat people, why do you think it will work with sin? Let's just say that I was drawing upon your analogy for two reasons: 1) to help anyone struggling with being overweight, and 2) to illustrate that your teaching concerning sin is probably about just as effective as your success in managing your weight. Look, you have told us often that you are fat and that you continue to sin. Why do you presume to teach us how to manage these issues? Don't you think a little more humility is in order? How about trying to hear a little more from those on the list who are not fat and who do not sin? Or are you going to reject the idea that some people on the list are not fat, just as you reject the idea that some people on this list do not continue to sin? Humility, John, humility. Is that too much to ask? Not everybody on the list is fat, and not everybody on the list sins. In other words, not everybody is just like you. Think about that, and think about how such facts should flavor the way you communicate on this list. More humility is in order here. Spoken firmly in love, wishing you only the best in Christ, David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Worship shapes our spirituality "...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge'Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our "church of choice" is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
do you know what I mean by "sinless perfectionism?" Your definition or the standard, which do you want? It is some kinda KENtuckee snake handler![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why suddenly so concerned for the truth, Deegan? do you know what I mean by "sinless perfectionism?" Jd-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:16:17 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity You are accusing him of something he has never professed. Standard "fair" for this crowd! Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:25:57 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are such a bore, David. If one eats nearly all the time -- postponement is a good thing. If one thinks to stop at Burger King for the third time today, postponement is a good thing. And it is noteating more often, David; it is eating smaller meals more often -- postponement working again. If I think to eat a candy bar afterhours, postponement is a good thing. What is wrong with you ppl - you break the Royal Law so far as David Miller is concerned daily. Where's the love?? You are quick to throw out everything but Christ's two commandments and you break both on a daily basis. And why do I think it will workwith sin -- because I am told that if I flee youthful lusts, I will have victory -- on any occasion thaI I do this, a victorywill be mine. The addict, if not miraculously delivered (and most[say 99%] are not), his only hope is sin management -- postponement. If the postponement is successful, he can build on that success. This must be where your "incarnational gospel" fails. Jesus did not go to the cross for "sin management" He defeated sin andfreed us fromit's inheritance, power, and presence ... However, this reality seems to threaten you. " ... who do not sin ." No one on this list fits that description, David -- lest of which is you. Let me make myself clear: THE number one reason why I do not believe in sinless perfectionism is YOU. That's it. You are accusing him of something he has never professed. I have read DM's views on sin and have seen him admit that he misses it, repents and goes on. When consistent that sin should eventually fall away. Why do you persist in accusing him? The blood of bulls and goats covered sin which was a type of sin management. The blood of Christ remits them. Big difference. You is the reason for the season.I think it funny that you equate "humility" with my giving attention to you or people like you. Arrogance, pride and conceit plague us all, don't they David? You may speak for yourself - otherwise all you are doing is becoming the devil's advocate JD. Back to "postponement." Eatng is not my only issue -- and the management principle has, in deed, worked in a number of areas in my life. JD Management does not get rid of the problem. This is what Israel thought they would do when God told them to get rid of the Canaanite Nations. They partially obeyed but decided to allow some to stay and be water carriers for them and these enemies rose up and bit them in the rear end. Something to think about. jt -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:43:36 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity John wrote: I was illustrating "sin management," David. Who said anything about slowing down ones metabolism? No me. But let's stay on track and avoid a food fight. You were using the problem of obesity to illustrate the value of sin management. You used the postponement of eating as an analogy to validate the concept of postponing sin. Well, if it does not work for fat people, why do you think it will work with sin? Let's just say that I was drawing upon your analogy for two reasons: 1) to help anyone struggling with being overweight, and 2) to illustrate that your teaching concerning sin is probably about just as effective as your success in managing your weight. Look, you have told us often that you are fat and that you continue to sin. Why do you presume to teach us how to manage these issues? Don't you think a little more humility is in order? How about trying to hear a little more from those on the list who are not fat and who do not sin? Or are you going to reject the idea that some people on the list are not fat, just as you reject the idea that some people on this list do not continue to sin? Humility, John, humility. Is that too much to ask? Not everybody on the list is fat, and not everybody on the list sins. In other words, not everybody is just like you. Think about that, and think about how such facts should flavor the way you communicate on this list. More humility is in order here. Spoken firmly in love, wishing you only the best in Christ, David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, se
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Worship shapes our spirituality Snacking shapes our posterior, Theology sometimes shapes our interpretation [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality "...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge'Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our "church of choice" is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs I sing have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy, where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart when I sang them. This one song had a line You can offer her anything her affections are all for Him only, that showed me how I should desire my God. Though I wouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, as quoted in Lance's post, I do love worship! Blessings! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality ...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our church of choice is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Obesity
ROFL!!! Too funny! JD, if you had success in an area, what would there be to land on like hungry animals??? Dont you have a bike helmet or something? Izzy So tell us, in what areas have you had success with it? Me tell you and the likes of Deegan and Izzy? Fat chance on that. You guys would land on that like hungry animals. You (all) are not ones to be trusted with such information. That is why you will never see a bio from me. It wwould be used to beat me over the head.
RE: [TruthTalk] Obesity
I can just hear JD saying, But HE did it FIRST!!! (grow up!) Izzy You are accusing him of something he has never professed. Standard fair for this crowd!
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Christine, do you equate singing songs in church with worship? Are there any other types of worship than singing songs? Perry From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT) It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs I sing have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy, where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart when I sang them. This one song had a line You can offer her anything her affections are all for Him only, that showed me how I should desire my God. Though I wouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, as quoted in Lance's post, I do love worship! Blessings! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality ...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our church of choice is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Yes, JDand how do YOU know you arent guilty of what you describe here? Could you possibly be guilty of arrogance and pride? Izzy Yes, David and some are blinded by their own sins. Arrogance and pride are among the most difficult sins to admit to because such admission would violate the principle of arrogance and pride.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Sometimes sasmcking shapes our posterir, as well. And, "theology"usually shapes our interpretation. -Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:10 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity Worship shapes our spirituality Snacking shapes our posterior, Theology sometimes shapes our interpretation [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality "...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge'Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our "church of choice" is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD Discover Yahoo!Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM more. Check it out!
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Good comments. My wife and I do not look to songs for didache -- rather we score high a service that allows us to praise God and give Him His righteous due. Perhaps reflective of how we approach the Faith in total. JD-Original Message-From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs I sing have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy, where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart when I sang them. This one song had a line "You can offer her anything her affections are all for Him only," that showed me how I should desire my God. Though I wouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, as quoted in Lance's post, I do love worship! Blessings! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality "...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our "church of choice" is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Having trouble with the phrase "do you know what I mean by "sinless" perfection?" JD-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:44:39 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity do you know what I mean by "sinless perfectionism?" Your definition or the standard, which do you want? It is some kinda KENtuckee snake handler![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why suddenly so concerned for the truth, Deegan? do you know what I mean by "sinless perfectionism?" Jd-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:16:17 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity You are accusing him of something he has never professed. Standard "fair" for this crowd! Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:25:57 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are such a bore, David. If one eats nearly all the time -- postponement is a good thing. If one thinks to stop at Burger King for the third time today, postponement is a good thing. And it is noteating more often, David; it is eating smaller meals more often -- postponement working again. If I think to eat a candy bar afterhours, postponement is a good thing. What is wrong with you ppl - you break the Royal Law so far as David Miller is concerned daily. Where's the love?? You are quick to throw out everything but Christ's two commandments and you break both on a daily basis. And why do I think it will workwith sin -- because I am told that if I flee youthful lusts, I will have victory -- on any occasion thaI I do this, a victorywill be mine. The addict, if not miraculously delivered (and most[say 99%] are not), his only hope is sin management -- postponement. If the postponement is successful, he can build on that success. This must be where your "incarnational gospel" fails. Jesus did not go to the cross for "sin management" He defeated sin andfreed us fromit's inheritance, power, and presence ... However, this reality seems to threaten you. " ... who do not sin ." No one on this list fits that description, David -- lest of which is you. Let me make myself clear: THE number one reason why I do not believe in sinless perfectionism is YOU. That's it. You are accusing him of something he has never professed. I have read DM's views on sin and have seen him admit that he misses it, repents and goes on. When consistent that sin should eventually fall away. Why do you persist in accusing him? The blood of bulls and goats covered sin which was a type of sin management. The blood of Christ remits them. Big difference. You is the reason for the season.I think it funny that you equate "humility" with my giving attention to you or people like you. Arrogance, pride and conceit plague us all, don't they David? You may speak for yourself - otherwise all you are doing is becoming the devil's advocate JD. Back to "postponement." Eatng is not my only issue -- and the management principle has, in deed, worked in a number of areas in my life. JD Management does not get rid of the problem. This is what Israel thought they would do when God told them to get rid of the Canaanite Nations. They partially obeyed but decided to allow some to stay and be water carriers for them and these enemies rose up and bit them in the rear end. Something to think about. jt -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:43:36 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity John wrote: I was illustrating "sin management," David. Who said anything about slowing down ones metabolism? No me. But let's stay on track and avoid a food fight. You were using the problem of obesity to illustrate the value of sin management. You used the postponement of eating as an analogy to validate the concept of postponing sin. Well, if it does not work for fat people, why do you think it will work with sin? Let's just say that I was drawing upon your analogy for two reasons: 1) to help anyone struggling with being overweight, and 2) to illustrate that your teaching concerning sin is probably about just as effective as your success in managing your weight. Look, you have told us often that you are fat and that you continue to sin. Why do you presume to teach us how to manage these issues? Don't you think a little more humility is in order? How about trying to hear a little more from those on the list who are not fat and who do not sin? Or are you going to reject the idea that some people on the list are not fat, just as you reject the idea that some people on this list do not continue to sin? Humility, John, humility. Is that too much to ask? Not everybody on the list is fat, and not everybody on the list sins. In other words, not everybody is just l
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
You have already expressed yourself in this negative activity, Izzy. My comments were not predictive so much as theywere a summary of how you (all) do buiness with those who disagree with you. I knew from the get go, that our good moderator, Charles Perry, could not reel you guys in -- so he really does not try. I think I can speak for Lance, Mr. G and myself in saying - your actions are expected and bring us no harm at all.That is, in fact, why we are still here. David continually refers to my "irritation" when, in fact, I AM smiling up my sleeve - as you put it. Smiling and shaking my head. But don't let meslow you down. CArry on and on and on and on. JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:17:22 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Obesity ROFL!!! Too funny! JD, if you had success in an area, what would there be to land on like hungry animals??? Don?t you have a bike helmet or something? Izzy So tell us, in what areas have you had success with it? Me tell you and the likes of Deegan and Izzy? Fat chance on that. You guys would land on that like hungry animals. You (all) are not ones to be trusted with such information. That is why you will never see a bio from me. It wwould be used to beat me over the head.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Its been awhile for me, but I believe the correct phraseology "work of services" (?) If so, most of what we do our of appreciation of the Christ in our lives would be worship. Thoughts???-Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:19:22 -0700 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity Christine, do you equate singing songs in church with worship? Are there any other types of worship than singing songs?PerryFrom: Christine Miller verilysaid@yahoo.comReply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] ObesityDate: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT) It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth.Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs Ising have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy,where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart whenI sang them. This one s ong had a line "You can offerher anything her affections are all for Him only,"that showed me how I should desire my God. Though Iwouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, asquoted in Lance's post, I do love worship!Blessings!--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality "...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality.How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our "church of choice" is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection aroundhttp://mail.yahoo.com--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a f riend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Of course-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:21:32 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Obesity Yes, JD?and how do YOU know you aren?t guilty of what you describe here? Could you possibly be guilty of arrogance and pride? Izzy Yes, David and some are blinded by their own sins. Arrogance and pride are among the most difficult sins to admit to because such admission would violate the principle of arrogance and pride.
RE: [TruthTalk] Obesity
It wwould be used to beat me over the head. Why bother, you provideso much other ammo ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ROFL!!! Too funny! JD, if you had success in an area, what would there be to land on like hungry animals??? DonÂ’t you have a bike helmet or something? Izzy So tell us, in what areas have you had success with it? Me tell you and the likes of Deegan and Izzy? Fat chance on that. You guys would land on that like hungry animals. You (all) are not ones to be trusted with such information. That is why you will never see a bio from me. It wwould be used to beat me over the head. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: == It probably depends a bit on whether you are one of those who do church, or if you are one of those who is church. Those who do church often are there because they want to be thought of as good people, or because it is good business, or because this is the sum total of their social life, or because they want to be entertained, or just to get out of the house, or because of a hundred other selfish reasons. Those who are church (those living stones) do not wait until Sunday to praise God. Their whole life is aimed at pleasing Him, which is a very real form of worship. Properly done, the coming together of the Saints should not be done for worship but for edification (1 Cor.14:26)
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
NO ain't you been to the Mecca? down in the Holla were the snake handler's go.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having trouble with the phrase "do you know what I mean by "sinless" perfection?" JD-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:44:39 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity do you know what I mean by "sinless perfectionism?" Your definition or the standard, which do you want? It is some kinda KENtuckee snake handler![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why suddenly so concerned for the truth, Deegan? do you know what I mean by "sinless perfectionism?" Jd-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:16:17 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity You are accusing him of something he has never professed. Standard "fair" for this crowd! Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:25:57 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are such a bore, David. If one eats nearly all the time -- postponement is a good thing. If one thinks to stop at Burger King for the third time today, postponement is a good thing. And it is noteating more often, David; it is eating smaller meals more often -- postponement working again. If I think to eat a candy bar afterhours, postponement is a good thing. What is wrong with you ppl - you break the Royal Law so far as David Miller is concerned daily. Where's the love?? You are quick to throw out everything but Christ's two commandments and you break both on a daily basis. And why do I think it will workwith sin -- because I am told that if I flee youthful lusts, I will have victory -- on any occasion thaI I do this, a victorywill be mine. The addict, if not miraculously delivered (and most[say 99%] are not), his only hope is sin management -- postponement. If the postponement is successful, he can build on that success. This must be where your "incarnational gospel" fails. Jesus did not go to the cross for "sin management" He defeated sin andfreed us fromit's inheritance, power, and presence ... However, this reality seems to threaten you. " ... who do not sin ." No one on this list fits that description, David -- lest of which is you. Let me make myself clear: THE number one reason why I do not believe in sinless perfectionism is YOU. That's it. You are accusing him of something he has never professed. I have read DM's views on sin and have seen him admit that he misses it, repents and goes on. When consistent that sin should eventually fall away. Why do you persist in accusing him? The blood of bulls and goats covered sin which was a type of sin management. The blood of Christ remits them. Big difference. You is the reason for the season.I think it funny that you equate "humility" with my giving attention to you or people like you. Arrogance, pride and conceit plague us all, don't they David? You may speak for yourself - otherwise all you are doing is becoming the devil's advocate JD. Back to "postponement." Eatng is not my only issue -- and the management principle has, in deed, worked in a number of areas in my life. JD Management does not get rid of the problem. This is what Israel thought they would do when God told them to get rid of the Canaanite Nations. They partially obeyed but decided to allow some to stay and be water carriers for them and these enemies rose up and bit them in the rear end. Something to think about. jt -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:43:36 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity John wrote: I was illustrating "sin management," David. Who said anything about slowing down ones metabolism? No me. But let's stay on track and avoid a food fight. You were using the problem of obesity to illustrate the value of sin management. You used the postponement of eating as an analogy to validate the concept of postponing sin. Well, if it does not work for fat people, why do you think it will work with sin? Let's just say that I was drawing upon your analogy for two reasons: 1) to help anyone struggling with being overweight, and 2) to illustrate that your teaching concerning sin is probably about just as effective as your success in managing your weight. Look, you have told us often that you are fat and that you continue to sin. Why do you presume to teach us how to manage these issues? Don't you think a little more humility is in order? How about trying to hear a little more from those on the list who are not fat and who do not sin? Or are you going to reject the idea that some people on the list are not fat, just as you reject the idea that some people on this list do not continue to sin? Humility, John, humility. Is that too much to ask? Not every
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
JOB And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good comments. My wife and I do not look to songs for didache -- rather we score high a service that allows us to praise God and give Him His righteous due. Perhaps reflective of how we approach the Faith in total. JD-Original Message-From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs I sing have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy, where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart when I sang them. This one song had a line "You can offer her anything her affections are all for Him only," that showed me how I should desire my God. Though I wouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, as quoted in Lance's post, I do love worship! Blessings! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality "...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our "church of choice" is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Worship is at 11:00 sharp on SundayTerry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: == It probably depends a bit on whether you are one of those who do church, or if you are one of those who is church. Those who do church often are there because they want to be thought of as good people, or because it is good business, or because this is the sum total of their social life, or because they want to be entertained, or just to get out of the house, or because of a hundred other selfish reasons. Those who are church (those living stones) do not wait until Sunday to praise God. Their whole life is aimed at pleasing Him, which is a very real form of worship.Properly done, the coming together of the Saints should not be done for worship but for edification (1 Cor.14:26)__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
In Eph 5:18ff -- Paul IS talking about doing church.That is the context of the passage.-Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:38:42 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: == It probably depends a bit on whether you are one of those who do church, or if you are one of those who is church. Those who do church often are there because they want to be thought of as good people, or because it is good business, or because this is the sum total of their social life, or because they want to be entertained, or just to get out of the house, or because of a hundred other selfish reasons. Those who are church (those living stones) do not wait until Sunday to praise God. Their whole life is aimed at pleasing Him, which is a very real form of worship.Properly done, the coming together of the Saints should not be done for worship but for edification (1 Cor.14:26)
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
I rest my case !!! JD-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:42:22 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity NO ain't you been to the Mecca? down in the Holla were the snake handler's go.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having trouble with the phrase "do you know what I mean by "sinless" perfection?" JD-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:44:39 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity do you know what I mean by "sinless perfectionism?" Your definition or the standard, which do you want? It is some kinda KENtuckee snake handler![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why suddenly so concerned for the truth, Deegan? do you know what I mean by "sinless perfectionism?" Jd-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:16:17 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity You are accusing him of something he has never professed. Standard "fair" for this crowd! Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:25:57 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are such a bore, David. If one eats nearly all the time -- postponement is a good thing. If one thinks to stop at Burger King for the third time today, postponement is a good thing. And it is noteating more often, David; it is eating smaller meals more often -- postponement working again. If I think to eat a candy bar afterhours, postponement is a good thing. What is wrong with you ppl - you break the Royal Law so far as David Miller is concerned daily. Where's the love?? You are quick to throw out everything but Christ's two commandments and you break both on a daily basis. And why do I think it will workwith sin -- because I am told that if I flee youthful lusts, I will have victory -- on any occasion thaI I do this, a victorywill be mine. The addict, if not miraculously delivered (and most[say 99%] are not), his only hope is sin management -- postponement. If the postponement is successful, he can build on that success. This must be where your "incarnational gospel" fails. Jesus did not go to the cross for "sin management" He defeated sin andfreed us fromit's inheritance, power, and presence ... However, this reality seems to threaten you. " ... who do not sin ." No one on this list fits that description, David -- lest of which is you. Let me make myself clear: THE number one reason why I do not believe in sinless perfectionism is YOU. That's it. You are accusing him of something he has never professed. I have read DM's views on sin and have seen him admit that he misses it, repents and goes on. When consistent that sin should eventually fall away. Why do you persist in accusing him? The blood of bulls and goats covered sin which was a type of sin management. The blood of Christ remits them. Big difference. You is the reason for the season.I think it funny that you equate "humility" with my giving attention to you or people like you. Arrogance, pride and conceit plague us all, don't they David? You may speak for yourself - otherwise all you are doing is becoming the devil's advocate JD. Back to "postponement." Eatng is not my only issue -- and the management principle has, in deed, worked in a number of areas in my life. JD Management does not get rid of the problem. This is what Israel thought they would do when God told them to get rid of the Canaanite Nations. They partially obeyed but decided to allow some to stay and be water carriers for them and these enemies rose up and bit them in the rear end. Something to think about. jt -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:43:36 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity John wrote: I was illustrating "sin management," David. Who said anything about slowing down ones metabolism? No me. But let's stay on track and avoid a food fight. You were using the problem of obesity to illustrate the value of sin management. You used the postponement of eating as an analogy to validate the concept of postponing sin. Well, if it does not work for fat people, why do you think it will work with sin? Let's just say that I was drawing upon your analogy for two reasons: 1) to help anyone struggling with being overweight, and 2) to illustrate that your teaching concerning sin is probably about just as effective as your success in managing your weight. Look, you have told us often that you are fat and that you continue to sin. Why do you presume to teach us how to manage these issues? Don't you think a little more humility is in order? How about trying to hear a little more from those on the list who are not fat and who do not sin? Or are you going to reject th
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
And your point -- that we must shave our heads, worship flat on the groundwhile tearing our clothing? ?? JD-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:48:49 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity JOB And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a grea t wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good comments. My wife and I do not look to songs for didache -- rather we score high a service that allows us to praise God and give Him His righteous due. Perhaps reflective of how we approach the Faith in total. JD-Original Message-From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs I sing have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy, where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart when I sang them. This one song had a line "You can offer her anything her affections are all for Him only," that showed me how I should desire my God. Though I wouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, as quoted in Lance's post, I do love worship! Blessings! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality "...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our "church of choice" is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Discover Yahoo!Get on-the-g
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Eph 5:18ff -- Paul IS talking about doing church.That is the context of the passage. === In my opinion, Paul was telling them how to be Church, but I thank you for the verse anyway, since I am trying to gather together all the verses that describe the coming together of the Saints. So far I have found some studying, some singing, some eating, some communion, some edifying. What I haven't found is the sermon, tithing, or the building fund.
RE: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Absolutely. The way we dress in the morning, the thoughts we carry through the day, the habits we form, our interactions with otherseverything we do is an _expression_ of worship. (Or not.) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 1:04 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity Its been awhile for me, but I believe the correct phraseology work of services (?) If so, most of what we do our of appreciation of the Christ in our lives would be worship. Thoughts??? -Original Message- From: Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.com To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:19:22 -0700 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity Christine, do you equate singing songs in church with worship? Are there any other types of worship than singing songs? Perry From: Christine Miller verilysaid@yahoo.com Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT) It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs I sing have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy, where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart when I sang them. This one s ong had a line You can offer her anything her affections are all for Him only, that showed me how I should desire my God. Though I wouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, as quoted in Lance's post, I do love worship! Blessings! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality ...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our church of choice is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a f riend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
>From here, his point seems to be that you do not need a community to worship, or a building, or a pastor/priest. Job, by the way, is just one of many examples of this. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And your point -- that we must shave our heads, worship flat on the groundwhile tearing our clothing? ?? JD -Original Message- From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity JOB And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a grea t wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good comments. My wife and I do not look to songs for didache -- rather we score high a service that allows us to praise God and give Him His righteous due. Perhaps reflective of how we approach the Faith in total. JD -Original Message- From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs I sing have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy, where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart when I sang them. This one song had a line "You can offer her anything her affections are all for Him only," that showed me how I should desire my God. Though I wouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, as quoted in Lance's post, I do love worship! Blessings! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality "...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our "church of choice" is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http:
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Terry wrote: ... I am trying to gather together all the verses that describe the coming together of the Saints. So far I have found some studying, some singing, some eating, some communion, some edifying. What I haven't found is the sermon, tithing, or the building fund. Here's a passage for the sermon. Acts 20:7-9 (7) And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. (8) And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together. (9) And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
tERRY -- YOU ARE NO MORE p.o.ED WITHT EH CHURCH TAHN i AM -- but you might rethink your comments in view of the following: Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together -- encouraging one another to love and good works. Heb 10:25 .. breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of hear. acts 2:46 We are to share in the worship of song -- a group thing. Eph 5:18-20 Speaking the truth in love, we are to grow upin all aspects into Him the whole body (read:church) being fitted and held together for the building up of itself (the church) in love Eph 4:15,16. I could go on, but you know these scriptures better than I. If for no other reason, "ye who are spiritual help those who are weak" can be a reason to attend. We (my wife and I ) have our times when we do not attend but we are always benefitted insome when we are there. After all, "church" was God's big idea !! JD -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:10:00 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity From here, his point seems to be that you do not need a community to worship, or a building, or a pastor/priest. Job, by the way, is just one of many examples of this.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And your point -- that we must shave our heads, worship flat on the groundwhile tearing our clothing? ?? JD-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:48:49 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity JOB And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a grea t wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good comments. My wife and I do not look to songs for didache -- rather we score high a service that allows us to praise God and give Him His righteous due. Perhaps reflective of how we approach the Faith in total. JD-Original Message-From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs I sing have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy, where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart when I sang them. This one song had a line "You can offer her anything her affections are all for Him only," that showed me how I should desire my God. Though I wouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, as quoted in Lance's post, I do love worship! Blessings! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality "...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality
RE: [TruthTalk] Obesity
AND worship is not always done in the throes of ecstasy. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 7:10 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity From here, his point seems to be that you do not need a community to worship, or a building, or a pastor/priest. Job, by the way, is just one of many examples of this. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And your point -- that we must shave our heads, worship flat on the groundwhile tearing our clothing? ?? JD -Original Message- From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity JOB And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a grea t wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good comments. My wife and I do not look to songs for didache -- rather we score high a service that allows us to praise God and give Him His righteous due. Perhaps reflective of how we approach the Faith in total. JD -Original Message- From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Amen. I realized recently that the worship songs I sing have taught me a sort of spiritual jealousy, where I wanted to mean those songs from my heart when I sang them. This one song had a line You can offer her anything her affections are all for Him only, that showed me how I should desire my God. Though I wouldn't rate it over preaching and teaching, as quoted in Lance's post, I do love worship! Blessings! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worship shapes our spirituality ...our spirituality is usually shaped more by the experience of communal worship than it is by preaching and teachingthe way we think about God and relate to God is influenced enormously by our experience of God in communal worship..Songs are especially formative. We are far more likely to find ourselves humming something we sang in church when we go home than we are to find ourselves meditating on a phrase in the sermon..(not one of yours, of course)..Christian philosopher and scientist Michael Polanyi spoke of knowledge that we simply absorb by a kind of 'osmosis' without even realizing that we have done so. This is what he refers to as 'tacit knowledge' Most Christians simply imbibe a theology through the way that they worship. .theology springs from right worship but theology also, in turn, guides and ensures right worship.There is a circular relationship between the two as healthy worship and theology support each otherhow theology can guide the kind of worship that in turn shapes people spirituality. How very true, for my wife and I, at least. Our church of choice is Valley Christian Center in Fresno. It is a 2000 member congregation with, perhaps, the best comtemporary worship service in the area. What Polanyi speaks of in the above quote is, perhaps, the same as that referenced by Paul in Eph. 5:18-20. There, spirit filling is an experience received on any occasion the community of saints gather togather in the sharing of song and spiritual hymns. It plays a very important part in the discipline of spiritual growth. Too much attention to the negatives expressed by some saints (including ourselves) often counters the joy and peace derived from these times of worhsip. Thanks for the words JD __ Do You Yahoo
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Possibly you are correct, but I see Paul as more of a transient evangelist or missionary than as a resident elder/pastor/priest, but there is no question that at the time reported he was preaching to the Church. Seems funny that when he gives details as to why the saints come together it is never to hear a sermon. Terry wrote: ... I am trying to gather together all the verses that describe the coming together of the Saints. So far I have found some studying, some singing, some eating, some communion, some edifying. What I haven't found is the sermon, tithing, or the building fund. Here's a passage for the sermon. Acts 20:7-9 (7) And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. (8) And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together. (9) And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: iN THE SPIRIT OF THE NEW ME, I AGREE WITH YOU 100%, IZZY. DAVID CAN BE AS ARROGANT AS HIS HEART DESIRES. I WILL NO LONGER JUDGEHIM IN THAT ! JD = Time will tell. If I were a betting man, I could make some money on this one. :)
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: tERRY -- YOU ARE NO MORE p.o.ED WITHT EH CHURCH TAHN i AM -- but you might rethink your comments in view of the following: Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together -- encouraging one another to love and good works. Heb 10:25 .. breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of hear. acts 2:46 We are to share in the worship of song -- a group thing. Eph 5:18-20 Speaking the truth in love, we are to grow upin all aspects into Him the whole body (read:church) being fitted and held together for the building up of itself (the church) in love Eph 4:15,16. I could go on, but you know these scriptures better than I. If for no other reason, "ye who are spiritual help those who are weak" can be a reason to attend. We (my wife and I ) have our times when we do not attend but we are always benefitted insome when we are there. After all, "church" was God's big idea !! JD == I am not down on church,John. We attend regularly. We just do it from house to house like the scriptures say some of the early believers did. We share a meal and afterward we play Bereans, sing songs, the whole works. You should try it. It sure beats staring at the back of the heads in the pew in front of you while one guy gives his spiel and everyone else tries to stay awake.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
DAVEH: TerryI bet you couldn't. ;-) Terry Clifton wrote: Time will tell. If I were a betting man, I could make some money on this one. :) -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
[TruthTalk] Obesity
John wrote: Fat people (and I suspect there are more fat people on this forum than one would suppose) victimize themselves with the addiction of gluttony. Sin Management teaches them that this is destructive behavior (ala sin) and encourages them to modify or postpone their eating . If there are fat people on this list, I would like to comment on this to help those fat people. Postponing eating is probably one of the worse things a fat person can do. The body has a natural response to postponed eating. It slows down your metabolism. Then when you do eat, more of what you eat is stored as fat. The cycle worsens with more postponing of eating because your body anticipates long periods between meals. It stores more and more fat as your metabolism slows down more and more. The right response to getting fat is to eat more frequently. Eating a meal about every 3 hours will cause the body's metabolism to speed up and the storage of fat becomes less necessary. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Obesity
Yum!!! Can we have dessert first? Iz -Original Message- Eating a meal about every 3 hours will cause the body's metabolism to speed up and the storage of fat becomes less necessary. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Obesity
I was illustrating "sin management," David. Who said anything about slowing down ones metabolism? No me. But let's stay on track and avoid a food fight. JD -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:18:38 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Obesity John wrote: Fat people (and I suspect there are more fat people on this forum than one would suppose) victimize themselves with the addiction of gluttony. Sin Management teaches them that this is destructive behavior (ala "sin") and encourages them to modify or postpone their eating . If there are fat people on this list, I would like to comment on this to help those fat people. Postponing eating is probably one of the worse things a fat person can do. The body has a natural response to postponed eating. It slows down your metabolism. Then when you do eat, more of what you eat is stored as fat. The cycle worsens with more postponing of eating because your body anticipates long periods between meals. It stores more and more fat as your metabolism slows down more and more. The right response to getting fat is to eat more frequently. Eating a meal about every 3 hours will cause the body's metabolism to speed up and the storage of fat becomes less necessary. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
