Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
In a message dated 4/8/2004 6:21:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John, I thought you didnt believe in the rapture? Worried now? Izzy Well, for a minute or so, I was seriously reconsidering. The main problem I have with the "rapture" teaching is that it is so involved. My ex- mother-in-law tried to explain it to me one day. It was just so very confusing. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
John, I think Im with you. If you have to construe that much, it probably is just wishful thinking. Im planning on hanging out till the 2nd Coming. Not planning on getting out of the 7 yr Trib: just prevailing through it supernaturally. (However, I wouldnt mind being pleasantly surprised. J ) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 4:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone In a message dated 4/8/2004 6:21:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John, I thought you didnt believe in the rapture? Worried now? Izzy Well, for a minute or so, I was seriously reconsidering. The main problem I have with the rapture teaching is that it is so involved. My ex- mother-in-law tried to explain it to me one day. It was just so very confusing. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/3/2004 7:51:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Wm. Taylor) Is Bill still lurking around? JudyT . Miller? ... Raptured DAVEH: With the bad jokes tonight, RUPTURED would be more like it :-) Could be bad news for the rest of us. John -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
In a message dated 4/7/2004 11:51:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: With the bad jokes tonight, RUPTURED would be more like it :-) Hey, when I quite drinken, all my good jokes had to go. J
RE: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
John, I thought you didnt believe in the rapture? Worried now? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 12:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone In a message dated 4/3/2004 7:51:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Wm. Taylor) Is Bill still lurking around? JudyT . Miller? ... Raptured Could be bad news for the rest of us. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
To access the archives go to: www.mail-archive.com Enter truthtalk in the box and click Find List (or press return). Then click on the TruthTalk link. There is usually a lag from time of posting until it appears in the archive. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Hi William, I have enjoyed reading some of your comments--I appreciate you tryingto shorten your posts,since I like reading short stuffbetter than long stuff. What I like best though, is the word, "stuff." It is nice and general, and can be relied upon as a truly nickel word when a dollar word will not come to mind. (:) You seem to have a lot of dollar words at the tip of your richly endowed keyboard. (:) In all honesty and candor, Ithink a lot of what you're trying tosay, however, is what I have come to call TCBS--Traditional Christian Belief System. You will find most of my posts reflect in some way or other my conviction that much of what is taught in so-called Christian Churches is basically tradition--which is either scantily supported by scripture, or supported only by the highly rationalized interpretations of those who want to believe the traditions--for whatever reasons. Your comments below are some of your better ones, so I am not picking on you--at least not now! (:) TT is fun, usually, so I hope we can at least agree to disagree from time to time. Just keep in mind, I never met a man I truly disliked--I even like Kevin, so you can see I have avery charitable attitude--basically, Peace, Blaine (Just anothersimple, unsophisticatedMormon boy, who loves the truth better than life) (:) - Original Message - From: Dave To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Wm. Taylor wrote: Did Christ include Judas in his death? Did He die for him? I think, unless we want to go into a discussion of Limited Atonement, we must conclude that He did. What then, if Christ took Judas down with Him in death, would preclude him from Salvation? Will he (Judas) not see resurrection? If Judas rejected Jesus Christ, what he did was this: he refused to participate in the salvation provided him in the resurrection of his Savior. The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it.DAVEH: Thanx for your thoughtful comments, Bill. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devilDAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved?DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment?DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YESDAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end?-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Thanks Blaine.
I hope you get this before you read my book on
Polanyi {:). I'll try to tone down the technical stuff. Sometimes, though, I
just can't help myself. Be patient with me, please.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Blaine
Borrowman
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:10
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set
the tone
Hi William,
I have enjoyed reading some of your
comments--I appreciate you tryingto shorten your posts,since I
like reading short stuffbetter than long stuff. What I like best
though, is the word, "stuff." It is nice and general, and can be relied
upon as a truly nickel word when a dollar word will not come to mind.
(:) You seem to have a lot of dollar words at the tip of your richly
endowed keyboard. (:) In all honesty and candor, Ithink a lot
of what you're trying tosay, however, is what I have come to call
TCBS--Traditional Christian Belief System. You will find most of my
posts reflect in some way or other my conviction that much of what is taught
in so-called Christian Churches is basically tradition--which is either
scantily supported by scripture, or supported only by the highly rationalized
interpretations of those who want to believe the traditions--for whatever
reasons. Your comments below are some of your better ones, so I am not
picking on you--at least not now! (:) TT is fun, usually, so I
hope we can at least agree to disagree from time to time. Just keep in
mind, I never met a man I truly disliked--I even like Kevin, so you can see I
have avery charitable attitude--basically,
Peace,
Blaine (Just anothersimple,
unsophisticatedMormon boy, who loves the truth better than life)
(:)
- Original Message -
From:
Dave
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 8:42
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set
the tone
Wm. Taylor wrote:
Did Christ include Judas in his death? Did He
die for him? I think, unless we want to go into a discussion of Limited
Atonement, we must conclude that He did. What then, if Christ took Judas
down with Him in death, would preclude him from Salvation? Will he (Judas)
not see resurrection? If Judas rejected Jesus Christ, what he did was
this: he refused to participate in the salvation provided him in the
resurrection of his Savior. The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then,
is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ.
That's how I read
it.DAVEH: Thanx for your thoughtful
comments, Bill.
Bill
-
Original Message -
From:
Dave
To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:
Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:11 PM
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Kevin Deegan wrote:
He was a devilDAVEH: Do you believe he was
a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him?
Is the Devil saved?DAVEH: Not if he fails
endure to the end, as did Judas. As a
tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to
one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented
and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have
qualified for salvation in your opinion?
Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Kevin
Deegan wrote:
If only Judas could have endured one more
moment?DAVEH: That's exactly the
point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do
you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he
endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises?
Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Kevin
Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can
one be lost if he endures to the end?
YESDAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you
believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the
end?--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain Five email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain Five email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
DAVEH: Thank you, Kevin. BTW..Is there any good you can think of Judas? Kevin Deegan wrote: Judas, He is a devil Here is his pedigree: He was NOT a believer! Jn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. He was a thief JN 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. Satan enterered into him JN 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. He was a GUIDE. Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. Judas had a special place spoken of noone else in scripture "his own place"the abyss, the pit. Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. Jesus said early in his ministry that he was present tense a devil JN 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? Jesus called Judas a "son of Perdition" the abode of Satan JN 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Antichrist is the Man of sin son of perdition: 2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Anti christ was is not, and shall be.Enoch "was not" on the earth afterGod took him Gen 5:24 Judas is coming back for his own Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Like any good counterfiet there are 3 persons in the False TRINITY of evil Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. After 1000 years the devil is cast into the lake of fire where the other 2 still ARE Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet ARE, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: No DAVEH: Is there Biblical evidence that brings you to that conclusion, or is it an assumption on your part? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: He was A devil who became THE Devil when Satan entered into him. DAVEH: Do you think he was saved prior to that time? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Kevin Deegan wrote: All I know is what scripture relates of him. DAVEH: I understand. I was thinking you might consider looking beyond how Scripture specifically denounces him and think of him as perhaps Jesus saw him at the time he chose him to be an apostle. IOW...do you ever see any good in folks, or to you only look for their negative characteristics? As you can see the scriptures do not speak well of him. DAVEH: Agreed. But do you think that is why Jesus chose him as a disciple.simply because he was bad to the bone? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DAVEH: Thank you, Kevin. BTW..Is there any good you can think of Judas? Kevin Deegan wrote: Judas, He is a devil Here is his pedigree: He was NOT a believer! Jn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. He was a thief JN 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. Satan enterered into him JN 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. He was a GUIDE. Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. Judas had a special place spoken of noone else in scripture "his own place"the abyss, the pit. Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. Jesus said early in his ministry that he was present tense a devil JN 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? Jesus called Judas a "son of Perdition" the abode of Satan JN 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Antichrist is the Man of sin son of perdition: 2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Anti christ was is not, and shall be.Enoch "was not" on the earth afterGod took him Gen 5:24 Judas is coming back for his own Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Like any good counterfiet there are 3 persons in the False TRINITY of evil Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. After 1000 years the devil is cast into the lake of fire where the other 2 still ARE Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet ARE, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
RE: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
There were things that could have been stated, but for the cause of the Apostles not being able to bear them. They were not revealed. What do you suppose those things were. Are they yet to be revealed how do you determine what they were?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: If god thought it important he would have told us.Some people are not yet ready to hear the important things that Godwants to say."I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you intoall truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shallhear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shallglorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that heshall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you." (John 16:12-15 KJV)Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
RE: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Kevin wrote: Are they yet to be revealed how do you determine what they were? Why are you asking me if the Bible alone is sufficient for you. ... ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (Acts 2:38-39 KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:16-26 KJV) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
So you get truth from the Holy Ghost? If you want to know truth on a subject, do you pray and ask? Does He speak to you? How exactly does this work?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: Are they yet to be revealed how do you determine what they were?Why are you asking me if the Bible alone is sufficient for you."... ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise isunto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even asmany as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:38-39 KJV)"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter,that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom theworld cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: butye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will notleave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and theworld seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall livealso. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me,and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it isthat loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and Iwill love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him,not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us,and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will comeunto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth notmy sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father'swhich sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet presentwith you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Fatherwill send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring allthings to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (John14:16-26 KJV)Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
NoDave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: He was A devil who became THE Devil when Satan entered into him.DAVEH: Do you think he was saved prior to that time? Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]Kevin Deegan wrote:HE WAS A DEVIL! Jesus told us so. Where do Devils go? jt: They go to spend eternity with the one they serve. DAVEH: I think we understand that. The question I had is at which point did he become a devil? Was he such before Jesus called and ordained him?-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone, short bio. of Bill
Kevin asks, "By the way how did you become a christian or are you still working on it?" I reply, Kevin I hope you are not asking me in vane. I grew up attending a Church of Christ in a small farming community. On most Sundays there were fewer than fifteen people in attendance, and certainly never more than 4 or 5 kids at any given time. Instead of having a Sunday School class for the kids, our pastor usually had us sit with the adults. This was back in the 60s. Hell Fire and Damnation was still very much in vogue, and pastor Palmer was an expert in it. He scared the hell out of me every week and Wednesday night. I believed what he was teaching, and I went forward in an alter call when I was seven years old and was promptly baptized (for the remission of my sins), but I never felt saved. If you are familiar with the Churches of Christ (Restoration Movement) you know how consistently Arminian they are in their doctrine. Salvation can be lost at a whim, should a person return to sin. I grew up begging Gods forgiveness and fearing that I might die with sins left unforgiven due to a failure on my part to get them all confessed (1 John 1.9 was a favorite stick pastor used to beat this idea in me). When I was eighteen I left homebut really I left the church. And for several years I ran from God. I totally believed that he was realand mean. I just couldnt get my life together well enough to feel comfortable around him. I was tired of praying forgiveness when I knew I would immediately sin again. Did I really think that God really thought I was going to change? How foolish! I resolved not to pray to God again until I got my act together. It wasnt until my late twenties that I again returned to the God of my youth; this time not so much because I thought I could please him, as it was that we (my wife and I) had children of our own and wanted them to be raised in the Church. Still, though, there were problems, none of which could have been resolved had it not been for the grace of God issued to me through the loving and patient kindness of a Baptist minister. Growing up I had never heard of the grace of God; the God I knew ruled with an iron fist. Sure his Son had died for our sins, but the work of Christ was lost, overshadowed by a litany of conditions that I had to meet if salvation were to be mine, not the least being that initial requirement of baptism by immersion for the express purpose of remitting sins. Since I knew of no other denomination that taught this practice, I was furthermore convinced that the only ones who could rightly call themselves Christians were the baptized believers of the Churches of Christ. That belief served to separate and isolate me from fellowship with believers of other denominations, which in turn limited the possibilities that I might (1) hear about salvation through faith by the grace of God, and (2) believe in it, even if I should hear. Well, to make a long story short, I met a Baptist pastor through my work. As time went by I got to know this man; moreover I came to like him very much. And because of my concern for him, and my desire that he not be lost, I set out to convert him to the ways of the Church of Christ. I know now that God used that occasion as the opportunity I needed to hear about his grace; for the more I tried to persuade my new friend to abandon his beliefs and adopt mine, the more opportunities he had to share with me the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. I must say, I fought his teachings with every ounce of my energy. At first I thought it was too easy; there had to be something more. But gradually the truth started to soak in. And I wanted so much to believe it, to think that there was now no condemnation for those who were in Christ Jesus. Then one day it happened. I had been meeting with pastor Wayne on a regular basis for nearly a year. When I wasnt with him I was spending a great deal of time at my mothers home, reading Gods word and checking it against what Wayne had been saying. On that particular day I was sitting at moms table, reading the book of Romans, and for reasons unknown to me I started noticing for the first time that the verbs which Paul used when he referred to salvation, justification, and the like, were overwhelmingly written in the past tense. With something like a bolt of lightning it hit me. I said to mom, You know, I think its true; I think we are saved by Gods grace and not by anything we do. Beyond that I was realizing that our salvation was a done deal, that we did not need to consume ourselves with fears that we might somehow lose the race. We were saved because of what Christ had done for us, not because of things we might do for ourselves. Suddenly a great confirmation swept over me. Something was telling me that it was true! And for the first time in my life I felt what it meant to have freedom in Christ. I knew what it was like to be set free from the
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
In a message dated 3/11/2004 4:36:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You missed an absolutely fascinating discussion on this very topic a few days ago. Maybe you can pick it up on TT's webpage. Anyway, thanks again. Bill Beans! How did I miss it? How do I get to the webpage? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Kevin Deegan wrote: No DAVEH: Is there Biblical evidence that brings you to that conclusion, or is it an assumption on your part? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: He was A devil who became THE Devil when Satan entered into him. DAVEH: Do you think he was saved prior to that time? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Beans! How did I miss it? How do I get to the webpage? John Go to www.mail-archive.com Enter truthtalk in the box and click Find List (or press return). Then click on the TruthTalk link. There is usually a lag from time of posting until it appears in the archive. Perry _ Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as $29.95/month. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone, short bio. of Bill
Thank you William"Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin asks, "By the way how did you become a christian or are you still working on it?" I reply, Kevin I hope you are not asking me in vane. I grew up attending a Church of Christ in a small farming community. On most Sundays there were fewer than fifteen people in attendance, and certainly never more than 4 or 5 kids at any given time. Instead of having a Sunday School class for the kids, our pastor usually had us sit with the adults. This was back in the 60s. Hell Fire and Damnation was still very much in vogue, and pastor Palmer was an expert in it. He scared the hell out of me every week and Wednesday night. I believed what he was teaching, and I went forward in an alter call when I was seven years old and was promptly baptized (for the remission of my sins), but I never felt saved. If you are familiar with the Churches of Christ (Restoration Movement) you know how consistently Arminian they are in their doctrine. Salvation can be lost at a whim, should a person return to sin. I grew up begging Gods forgiveness and fearing that I might die with sins left unforgiven due to a failure on my part to get them all confessed (1 John 1.9 was a favorite stick pastor used to beat this idea in me). When I was eighteen I left homebut really I left the church. And for several years I ran from God. I totally believed that he was realand mean. I just couldnt get my life together well enough to feel comfortable around him. I was tired of praying forgiveness when I knew I would immediately sin again. Did I really think that God really thought I was going to change? How foolish! I resolved not to pray to God again until I got my act together. It wasnt until my late twenties that I again returned to the God of my youth; this time not so much because I thought I could please him, as it was that we (my wife and I) had children of our own and wanted them to be raised in the Church. Still, though, there were problems, none of which could have been resolved had it not been for the grace of God issued to me through the loving and patient kindness of a Baptist minister. Growing up I had never heard of the grace of God; the God I knew ruled with an iron fist. Sure his Son had died for our sins, but the work of Christ was lost, overshadowed by a litany of conditions that I had to meet if salvation were to be mine, not the least being that initial requirement of baptism by immersion for the express purpose of remitting sins. Since I knew of no other denomination that taught this practice, I was furthermore convinced that the only ones who could rightly call themselves Christians were the baptized believers of the Churches of Christ. That belief served to separate and isolate me from fellowship with believers of other denominations, which in turn limited the possibilities that I might (1) hear about salvation through faith by the grace of God, and (2) believe in it, even if I should hear. Well, to make a long story short, I met a Baptist pastor through my work. As time went by I got to know this man; moreover I came to like him very much. And because of my concern for him, and my desire that he not be lost, I set out to convert him to the ways of the Church of Christ. I know now that God used that occasion as the opportunity I needed to hear about his grace; for the more I tried to persuade my new friend to abandon his beliefs and adopt mine, the more opportunities he had to share with me the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. I must say, I fought his teachings with every ounce of my energy. At first I thought it was too easy; there had to be something more. But gradually the truth started to soak in. And I wanted so much to believe it, to think that there was now no condemnation for those who were in Christ Jesus. Then one day it happened. I had been meeting with pastor Wayne on a regular basis for nearly a year. When I wasnt with him I was spending a great deal of time at my mothers home, reading Gods word and checking it against what Wayne had been saying. On that particular day I was sitting at moms table, reading the book of Romans, and for reasons unknown to me I started noticing for the first time that the verbs which Paul used when he referred to salvation, justification, and the like, were overwhelmingly written in the past tense. With something like a bolt of lightning it hit me. I said to mom, You know, I think its true; I think we are saved by Gods grace and not by anything we do. Beyond that I was realizing that our salvation was a done deal, that we did not need to consume ourselves with fears that we might somehow lose the race. We were saved because of what Christ had done for us, not because of things we might do for ourselves. Suddenly a great confirmation swept over me. Something was telling me that it was true! And for the first time in my life I felt what it meant to have freedom in Christ. I knew what it was like to be
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Judas, He is a devil Here is his pedigree: He was NOT a believer! Jn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. He was a thief JN 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. Satan enterered into him JN 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. He was a GUIDE. Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. Judas had a special place spoken of noone else in scripture "his own place"the abyss, the pit. Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. Jesus said early in his ministry that he was present tense a devil JN 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? Jesus called Judas a "son of Perdition" the abode of Satan JN 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Antichrist is the Man of sin son of perdition: 2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Anti christ was is not, and shall be.Enoch "was not" on the earth afterGod took him Gen 5:24 Judas is coming back for his own Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Like any good counterfiet there are 3 persons in the False TRINITY of evil Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. After 1000 years the devil is cast into the lake of fire where the other 2 still ARE Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet ARE, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: NoDAVEH: Is there Biblical evidence that brings you to that conclusion, or is it an assumption on your part? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: He was A devil who became THE Devil when Satan entered into him.DAVEH: Do you think he was saved prior to that time?-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
In a message dated 3/12/2004 9:36:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Antichrist is the Man of sin son of perdition: 2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Anti christ was is not, and shall be. Enoch "was not" on the earth after God took him Gen 5:24 Judas is coming back for his own Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Kevin, Kevin, Kevin. Are you saying that Judas was much more than a man, albeit an evil man? I may have to rethink my postulate allowing only scripture to define scripture. Something is serious wrong, honestly think, if we end up with the conclusion that Judas is referenced in the above scripture. Maybe I am saying that because it new to me and does not fit into my systematic theology. And I am being serious here. Anyway, I must think so thank you for that, young man. A Friend John
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Kevin Deegan wrote: So the Devil could be saved if he endures to the end? DAVEH: Just ignoring my questions again, Kevin? If Jesus' grace is for ALL who endure to the end, then what do you think would be the answer? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devil DAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved? DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment? DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YES DAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
HE WAS A DEVIL! Jesus told us so. Where do Devils go? Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did Christ include Judas in his death? Did He die for him? I think, unless we want to go into a discussion of Limited Atonement, we must conclude that He did. What then, if Christ took Judas down with Him in death, would preclude him from Salvation? Will he (Judas) not see resurrection? If Judas rejected Jesus Christ, what he did was this: he refused to participate in the salvation provided him in the resurrection of his Savior. The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill jt: Time to quit the Nicene Fathersand study the Bible Bill. Judas didn't make it. Jesus said so. He told the Father he hadn't lost any but the son of perdition which is Judas. Yes Judas will see a resurrection - everyone will, some to life and some to the second death. judyt God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people study From: Dave Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devilDAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved?DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment?DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YESDAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end?-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Thanks for clearing that up Judy - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 11:34 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did Christ include Judas in his death? Did He die for him? I think, unless we want to go into a discussion of Limited Atonement, we must conclude that He did. What then, if Christ took Judas down with Him in death, would preclude him from Salvation? Will he (Judas) not see resurrection? If Judas rejected Jesus Christ, what he did was this: he refused to participate in the salvation provided him in the resurrection of his Savior. The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill jt: Time to quit the Nicene Fathersand study the Bible Bill. Judas didn't make it. Jesus said so. He told the Father he hadn't lost any but the son of perdition which is Judas. Yes Judas will see a resurrection - everyone will, some to life and some to the second death. judyt God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people study From: Dave Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devilDAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved?DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment?DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YESDAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end?-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Because there is no salvation for angels. I covered this in a post a few months back. I am sure it is in the TT archives. From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:54:33 -0800 Charles Perry Locke wrote: There is no salvation for angels. DAVEH: Why do you say that, Perry? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. _ Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar includes FREE pop-up blocking! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Kevin Deegan wrote: HE WAS A DEVIL! Jesus told us so. Where do Devils go? DAVEH: I think we understand that. The question I had is at which point did he become a devil? Was he such before Jesus called and ordained him? Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did Christ include Judas in his death? Did He die for him? I think, unless we want to go into a discussion of Limited Atonement, we must conclude that He did. What then, if Christ took Judas down with Him in death, would preclude him from Salvation? Will he (Judas) not see resurrection? If Judas rejected Jesus Christ, what he did was this: he refused to participate in the salvation provided him in the resurrection of his Savior. The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill jt: Time to quit the Nicene Fathersand study the Bible Bill. Judas didn't make it. Jesus said so. He told the Father he hadn't lost any but the son of perdition which is Judas. Yes Judas will see a resurrection - everyone will, some to life and some to the second death. judyt God allows the devil to raise up heretics to make his people study From: Dave Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devil DAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved? DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment? DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YES DAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
My fellow TTers, I don't think it is as cut and dried as some of you are suggesting. I am aware of what was said concerning Judas. I believe those Words ask of us an interpretive task: How do we reconcile the limited things we know about the Judas eventwith the greater narrative of Christ? In my mind it still goes back to Christ, Who do you say that heis? Is Christ's calling of Judas greater than Judas' betrayal?Maybe these questions are bigger than proof texting can adequately address. I'm glad I peaked your interest. A really satisfying study on this very subject is Ray S. Anderson, The Gospel According to Judas: Is There a Limit so God's Forgiveness? (Pasadena: Fuller Seminary, 1994). The bottom line as I see it is this: There is no good reason for not believing in Jesus Christ. Yet for no good reason some willrefuse to believe. And they may go to hell who refuse him. But weought not point to God for this. The only way humans can perhaps change the destiny provided them in Christ's finished and perfected work, is to finally refuse their adoption in Christ. This grounds reprobation not in God's will but in our own. This "mystery of iniquity" does not originate from above; it finds its source and ground down here, somewhere close I fear, somewhere very close to home. Thanks, Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:55 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill John: Looks like a tie. Bill is right. We individually bear the responsiblities for our sins. Our demise, if in fact that is the case, is our fault. But judyt is correct also. According to Jesus, Judas did not make it. He could have --- but apparently he did not. Contribition that leads to suicide is confusion, not confession (confess to one another so that you may be healed). John jt: Judas did confess to the sanhedrin that he had betrayed 'innocent blood' and he tried to give back the 30pcs of silver It wasn't enough. He should have dealt with God. Too early to go to the throne of grace in time of need but he could have come to the temple with a sin offering. judyt God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people study
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
My fellow TTers, I don't think it is as cut and dried as some of you are suggesting. I am aware of what was said concerning Judas. I believe those Words ask of us an interpretive task: How do we reconcile the limited things we know about the Judas eventwith the greater narrative of Christ? In my mind it still goes back to Christ, Who do you say that heis? Is Christ's calling of Judas greater than Judas' betrayal?Maybe these questions are bigger than proof texting can adequately address. I'm glad I peaked your interest. A really satisfying study on this very subject is Ray S. Anderson, The Gospel According to Judas: Is There a Limit to God's Forgiveness? (Pasadena: Fuller Seminary, 1994). The bottom line as I see it is this: There is no good reason for not believing in Jesus Christ. Yet for no good reason some willrefuse to believe. And they may go to hell who refuse him. But weought not point to God for this. The only way humans can perhaps change the destiny provided them in Christ's finished and perfected work, is to finally refuse their adoption in Christ. This grounds reprobation not in God's will but in our own. This "mystery of iniquity" does not originate from above; it finds its source and ground down here, somewhere close I fear, somewhere very close to home. Thanks, Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:55 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill John: Looks like a tie. Bill is right. We individually bear the responsiblities for our sins. Our demise, if in fact that is the case, is our fault. But judyt is correct also. According to Jesus, Judas did not make it. He could have --- but apparently he did not. Contribition that leads to suicide is confusion, not confession (confess to one another so that you may be healed). John jt: Judas did confess to the sanhedrin that he had betrayed 'innocent blood' and he tried to give back the 30pcs of silver It wasn't enough. He should have dealt with God. Too early to go to the throne of grace in time of need but he could have come to the temple with a sin offering. judyt God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people study
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
In a message dated 3/11/2004 6:57:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: Judas did confess to the sanhedrin that he had betrayed 'innocent blood' and he tried to give back the 30pcs of silver It wasn't enough. He should have dealt with God. Too early to go to the throne of grace in time of need but he could have come to the temple with a sin offering. very good point. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Did I miss the testimony of how you are becoming a christian? MaybeI overlooked it."Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My fellow TTers, I don't think it is as cut and dried as some of you are suggesting. I am aware of what was said concerning Judas. I believe those Words ask of us an interpretive task: How do we reconcile the limited things we know about the Judas eventwith the greater narrative of Christ? In my mind it still goes back to Christ, Who do you say that heis? Is Christ's calling of Judas greater than Judas' betrayal?Maybe these questions are bigger than proof texting can adequately address. I'm glad I peaked your interest. A really satisfying study on this very subject is Ray S. Anderson, The Gospel According to Judas: Is There a Limit to God's Forgiveness? (Pasadena: Fuller Seminary, 1994). The bottom line as I see it is this: There is no good reason for not believing in Jesus Christ. Yet for no good reason some willrefuse to believe. And they may go to hell who refuse him. But weought not point to God for this. The only way humans can perhaps change the destiny provided them in Christ's finished and perfected work, is to finally refuse their adoption in Christ. This grounds reprobation not in God's will but in our own. This "mystery of iniquity" does not originate from above; it finds its source and ground down here, somewhere close I fear, somewhere very close to home. Thanks, Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:55 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill John: Looks like a tie. Bill is right. We individually bear the responsiblities for our sins. Our demise, if in fact that is the case, is our fault. But judyt is correct also. According to Jesus, Judas did not make it. He could have --- but apparently he did not. Contribition that leads to suicide is confusion, not confession (confess to one another so that you may be healed). John jt: Judas did confess to the sanhedrin that he had betrayed 'innocent blood' and he tried to give back the 30pcs of silver It wasn't enough. He should have dealt with God. Too early to go to the throne of grace in time of need but he could have come to the temple with a sin offering. judyt God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people study Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Well Judy you know how those that are headed there always want to remodel first.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] My fellow TTers, I don't think it is as cut and dried as some of you are suggesting. I am aware of what was said concerning Judas. I believe those Words ask of us an interpretive task: How do we reconcile the limited things we know about the Judas eventwith the greater narrative of Christ? jt: How does one misinterpret "the son of perdition?" We are told in Hebrews 12:27 that Esau who did something similar found no place of repentance though he sought it with tears. In my mind it still goes back to Christ, Who do you say that heis? Is Christ's calling of Judas greater than Judas' betrayal? jt: Many are called, but few are chosen. Let's not put our own preferences into the text.Letting God be God is not proof texting. Maybe these questions are bigger than proof texting can adequately address. I'm glad I peaked your interest. A really satisfying study on this very subject is Ray S. Anderson, The Gospel According to Judas: Is There a Limit so God's Forgiveness? (Pasadena: Fuller Seminary, 1994). jt: Not when we humble ourselves, come to the throne of grace, and ask him to forgive us in Jesus name. However, forgiveness is a gift which we have no record that Judas ever received. The bottom line as I see it is this: There is no good reason for not believing in Jesus Christ. Yet for no good reason some willrefuse to believe. And they may go to hell who refuse him. But weought not point to God for this. The only way humans can perhaps change the destiny provided them in Christ's finished and perfected work, is to finally refuse their adoption in Christ. This grounds reprobation not in God's will but in our own. This "mystery of iniquity" does not originate from above; it finds its source and ground down here, somewhere close I fear, somewhere very close to home. jt: Or in the second heaven. judyt God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people study From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:55 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill John: Looks like a tie. Bill is right. We individually bear the responsiblities for our sins. Our demise, if in fact that is the case, is our fault. But judyt is correct also. According to Jesus, Judas did not make it. He could have --- but apparently he did not. Contribition that leads to suicide is confusion, not confession (confess to one another so that you may be healed). John jt: Judas did confess to the sanhedrin that he had betrayed 'innocent blood' and he tried to give back the 30pcs of silver It wasn't enough. He should have dealt with God. Too early to go to the throne of grace in time of need but he could have come to the temple with a sin offering. judyt God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people study Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
He was A devil who became THE Devil when Satan entered into him.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]Kevin Deegan wrote:HE WAS A DEVIL! Jesus told us so. Where do Devils go? jt: They go to spend eternity with the one they serve. DAVEH: I think we understand that. The question I had is at which point did he become a devil? Was he such before Jesus called and ordained him? jt: No but he apparently yeilded to temptation with the money bag and he was not taking his own thoughts captive and dealing with his personal sin Jesusspoke a prophetic word in (John 6:70) which later happened at the Last Supper when Satan entered into him. judyt God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people study Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did Christ include Judas in his death? Did He die for him? I think, unless we want to go into a discussion of Limited Atonement, we must conclude that He did. What then, if Christ took Judas down with Him in death, would preclude him from Salvation? Will he (Judas) not see resurrection? If Judas rejected Jesus Christ, what he did was this: he refused to participate in the salvation provided him in the resurrection of his Savior. The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill jt: Time to quit the Nicene Fathersand study the Bible Bill. Judas didn't make it. Jesus said so. He told the Father he hadn't lost any but the son of perdition which is Judas. Yes Judas will see a resurrection - everyone will, some to life and some to the second death. judyt God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people study From: Dave Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devilDAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved?DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment?DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YESDAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end?-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
In a message dated 3/11/2004 10:39:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The only way humans can perhaps change the destiny provided them in Christ's finished and perfected work, is to finally refuse their adoption in Christ. This I very much believe. An absolutely great point. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Thanks John, You missed an absolutely fascinating discussion on this very topic a few days ago. Maybe you can pick it up on TT's webpage. Anyway, thanks again. Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone In a message dated 3/11/2004 10:39:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The only way humans can perhaps change the destiny provided them in Christ's finished and perfected work, is to finally refuse their adoption in Christ. This I very much believe. An absolutely great point. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Are you interested, Kevin, or are you up to something else? Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Did I miss the testimony of how you are becoming a christian? MaybeI overlooked it."Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My fellow TTers, I don't think it is as cut and dried as some of you are suggesting. I am aware of what was said concerning Judas. I believe those Words ask of us an interpretive task: How do we reconcile the limited things we know about the Judas eventwith the greater narrative of Christ? In my mind it still goes back to Christ, Who do you say that heis? Is Christ's calling of Judas greater than Judas' betrayal?Maybe these questions are bigger than proof texting can adequately address. I'm glad I peaked your interest. A really satisfying study on this very subject is Ray S. Anderson, The Gospel According to Judas: Is There a Limit to God's Forgiveness? (Pasadena: Fuller Seminary, 1994). The bottom line as I see it is this: There is no good reason for not believing in Jesus Christ. Yet for no good reason some willrefuse to believe. And they may go to hell who refuse him. But weought not point to God for this. The only way humans can perhaps change the destiny provided them in Christ's finished and perfected work, is to finally refuse their adoption in Christ. This grounds reprobation not in God's will but in our own. This "mystery of iniquity" does not originate from above; it finds its source and ground down here, somewhere close I fear, somewhere very close to home. Thanks, Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:55 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill John: Looks like a tie. Bill is right. We individually bear the responsiblities for our sins. Our demise, if in fact that is the case, is our fault. But judyt is correct also. According to Jesus, Judas did not make it. He could have --- but apparently he did not. Contribition that leads to suicide is confusion, not confession (confess to one another so that you may be healed). John jt: Judas did confess to the sanhedrin that he had betrayed 'innocent blood' and he tried to give back the 30pcs of silver It wasn't enough. He should have dealt with God. Too early to go to the throne of grace in time of need but he could have come to the temple with a sin offering. judyt God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people study Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Go ahead just wondering. I don't bite."Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you interested, Kevin, or are you up to something else? Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Did I miss the testimony of how you are becoming a christian? MaybeI overlooked it."Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My fellow TTers, I don't think it is as cut and dried as some of you are suggesting. I am aware of what was said concerning Judas. I believe those Words ask of us an interpretive task: How do we reconcile the limited things we know about the Judas eventwith the greater narrative of Christ? In my mind it still goes back to Christ, Who do you say that heis? Is Christ's calling of Judas greater than Judas' betrayal?Maybe these questions are bigger than proof texting can adequately address. I'm glad I peaked your interest. A really satisfying study on this very subject is Ray S. Anderson, The Gospel According to Judas: Is There a Limit to God's Forgiveness? (Pasadena: Fuller Seminary, 1994). The bottom line as I see it is this: There is no good reason for not believing in Jesus Christ. Yet for no good reason some willrefuse to believe. And they may go to hell who refuse him. But weought not point to God for this. The only way humans can perhaps change the destiny provided them in Christ's finished and perfected work, is to finally refuse their adoption in Christ. This grounds reprobation not in God's will but in our own. This "mystery of iniquity" does not originate from above; it finds its source and ground down here, somewhere close I fear, somewhere very close to home. Thanks, Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:55 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill John: Looks like a tie. Bill is right. We individually bear the responsiblities for our sins. Our demise, if in fact that is the case, is our fault. But judyt is correct also. According to Jesus, Judas did not make it. He could have --- but apparently he did not. Contribition that leads to suicide is confusion, not confession (confess to one another so that you may be healed). John jt: Judas did confess to the sanhedrin that he had betrayed 'innocent blood' and he tried to give back the 30pcs of silver It wasn't enough. He should have dealt with God. Too early to go to the throne of grace in time of need but he could have come to the temple with a sin offering. judyt God allows the devil to raise up hereticsto make his people study Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Kevin Deegan wrote: He was A devil who became THE Devil when Satan entered into him. DAVEH: Do you think he was saved prior to that time? Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kevin Deegan wrote: HE WAS A DEVIL! Jesus told us so. Where do Devils go? jt: They go to spend eternity with the one they serve. DAVEH: I think we understand that. The question I had is at which point did he become a devil? Was he such before Jesus called and ordained him? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
If only Judas could have endured one more moment?Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YESDAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end?-- ~~~Dave Hansen[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.langlitz.com~~~If you wish to receivethings I find interesting,I maintain Five email lists...JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devil DAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved? DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment? DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YES DAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
So the Devil could be saved if he endures to the end?Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devilDAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved?DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment?DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YESDAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end?-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Did Christ include Judas in his death? Did He die for him? I think, unless we want to go into a discussion of Limited Atonement, we must conclude that He did. What then, if Christ took Judas down with Him in death, would preclude him from Salvation? Will he (Judas) not see resurrection? If Judas rejected Jesus Christ, what he did was this: he refused to participate in the salvation provided him in the resurrection of his Savior. The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devilDAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved?DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment?DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YESDAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end?-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
The question is can the devil get saved?"Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did Christ include Judas in his death? Did He die for him? I think, unless we want to go into a discussion of Limited Atonement, we must conclude that He did. What then, if Christ took Judas down with Him in death, would preclude him from Salvation? Will he (Judas) not see resurrection? If Judas rejected Jesus Christ, what he did was this: he refused to participate in the salvation provided him in the resurrection of his Savior. The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devilDAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved?DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment?DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YESDAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end?-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
I hope so. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone The question is can the devil get saved?"Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did Christ include Judas in his death? Did He die for him? I think, unless we want to go into a discussion of Limited Atonement, we must conclude that He did. What then, if Christ took Judas down with Him in death, would preclude him from Salvation? Will he (Judas) not see resurrection? If Judas rejected Jesus Christ, what he did was this: he refused to participate in the salvation provided him in the resurrection of his Savior. The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devilDAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved?DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment?DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YESDAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end?-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Wm. Taylor wrote: Did Christ include Judas in his death? Did He die for him? I think, unless we want to go into a discussion of Limited Atonement, we must conclude that He did. What then, if Christ took Judas down with Him in death, would preclude him from Salvation? Will he (Judas) not see resurrection? If Judas rejected Jesus Christ, what he did was this: he refused to participate in the salvation provided him in the resurrection of his Savior. The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. DAVEH: Thanx for your thoughtful comments, Bill. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devil DAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved? DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment? DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YES DAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
There is no salvation for angels. From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:54:06 -0800 (PST) The question is can the devil get saved? Wm. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Did Christ include Judas in his death? Did He die for him? I think, unless we want to go into a discussion of Limited Atonement, we must conclude that He did. What then, if Christ took Judas down with Him in death, would preclude him from Salvation? Will he (Judas) not see resurrection? If Judas rejected Jesus Christ, what he did was this: he refused to participate in the salvation provided him in the resurrection of his Savior. The only thing that sends Judas to hell, then, is Judas, if indeed Judas finally rejected Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Kevin Deegan wrote: He was a devil DAVEH: Do you believe he was a devil when Jesus chose and ordained him? Is the Devil saved? DAVEH: Not if he fails endure to the end, as did Judas. As a tangential question Kevin.Do you believe Jesus' grace can apply to one who has been labeled a devil? IOW.IF Judas had repented and confessed after his betrayal of our Saviour, would he then have qualified for salvation in your opinion? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: If only Judas could have endured one more moment? DAVEH: That's exactly the point.he did not endure, but instead chose to betray. Do you believe Judas had been saved at any time, Kevin? Had he endured, then would he not have been saved as Jesus promises? Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YES DAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end? -- ~~~Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]://www.langlitz.com~~~If you wish to receivethings I find interesting,I maintain Five email lists...JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster. _ Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as $29.95/month. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Charles Perry Locke wrote: There is no salvation for angels. DAVEH: Why do you say that, Perry? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YESDave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terry Clifton wrote: Look at how the apostle Paul dealt with a similar situation in Acts 13:10 he said "O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord" Then there was Peter with the newly baptized Simon in Acts 8:22 Peter told him to "Repent of thy wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of thine heart be forgiven thee for I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity" Do you believe that both Peter and Paul were walking in the spirit and in the bond of peace and love here, or were they verbally stoning these people? Judy Like I said before, there is a time for everything. This was a time for rebuke, yet Jesus was very kind and patient with the woman at the well and the other woman brought to Him to test HIm. Both adultresses, both guilty, but He did not jump on them or put on a holier than thou face.There is no argument that the Mormons are lost sinners,DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? but I expect sinners to act like sinners, and Kevin seems to expect them to act like saints. You can scream at them all the verses you can think of, but if the Holy Spirit isn't leading the way, you are making enemies instead of converts.DAVEH: Have you considered the HS may not find what you are offering the direction the HS wants to lead. That is fitting for someone full of subtilty and mischief, but these guys are not full of mischief. Someone has filled them with bull, and they went for it. It is very tempting to sell them a bridge I own over San Francisco bay. Just kidding, I think we would all do better to pray for them.DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your conclusions, but I appreciate your prayerful concerns Terry. That's just my opinion.Terry-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
RE: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Wow, Lance. That was real interesting. I just received a book in the mail by Torrance called the Mediation of Christ. I cant wait to read more. It appears that Torrance took a TRULY holistic approach toward understanding, which is a challenge to me because I have been trained to be reductionistic. I think he is going to help bring me to some new levels of understanding that have always been out there on the horizon for me, but somewhat distant and not focused. Thanks for sharing. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 10:43 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone The deepest questions are those which penetrate to our ultimate assumptions or beliefs and which exercise a regulative control over our knowledge in any sphere. These are questions as to the framework of thought with which we operate and, from which we put our questions. They are questions as to the hidden preconceptions of which we may not be properly aware. We all operate with regulative beliefs of this kind which are tacit and informal. They are not normally noticed and they operate axiomatically in our interpretive framework. Their power over us is in proportion to the fact that they are tacit and they are axiomatically held. BUT WHENEVER A CRISIS ARRIVES, whenever deep conflicts in opposing frameworks of thought arise, then our unconscious assumptions, our latent beliefs, are suddenly thrust to the surface and we are forced to think them out. UNLESS WE BELIEVE WE WILL NOT UNDERSTAND and it's only if we believe that we will understand. There is no understanding without the commitment of the mind to objective reality and to its natural or intrinsic intelligibility. (TFTorrance) Indeed, what nature did Christ assume at His Incarnation? Lance
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Kevin Deegan wrote: DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? YES DAVEH: Now let me ask you, Terry.Do you believe one can be saved if he does not endure to the end? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Terry wrote, "Where did you get the goofy idea that we can reproove or rebuke in love? Is something like that hidden so deep in the Bible that SOME Christians cannot see it?" Yeah, Terry, if it is there, it must be deeply imbedded. I didn't know what to do with this one, so I leftit alone. I figured it would have to stand or fall pretty much on its own weight. Bill - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 6:07 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Kevin Deegan wrote: I am sorry, thatI do not fit your little Butter Cup christianity. That is right,I forgot,we are supposed to "prophesy SMOOTH things" I do not want to work thru the things that divide us. I am interested in staying divided heretics on one side christians on the other. Which side are you? The bible never tells us to find what things we have in common with unbelievers. It is not like any of us here do not believe the bible? What have you been reading. Maybe you posted to the wrong group. I will take your email under advisement as far as it is translated correctly. No reproving, nor rebuke, even if the bible says so. It is unbecoming on a Modern christian, right? Philosphy? Nothing to offer? Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. I prefer the bible. maybe you think it has nothing to offer. =
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Is this deeply embedded? 2 Tim 3;16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness ALL Scripture is given for what? doctrine: and some of you need some good doctrine Reproof: And some of you need REPROOF Correction: and some of you need correction Instruction: this too prov 25:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love. 1 Tim 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. Amos 5;10 They hate him that rebuketh in the gate, and they abhor him that speaketh uprightly. Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. Prov 25:12 As an earring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold, so is a wise reprover upon an obedient ear. 2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Herod put John in prison for reproving him in Luke 3;19 Rev 3;19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. "Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terry wrote, "Where did you get the goofy idea that we can reproove or rebuke in love? Is something like that hidden so deep in the Bible that SOME Christians cannot see it?" Yeah, Terry, if it is there, it must be deeply imbedded. I didn't know what to do with this one, so I leftit alone. I figured it would have to stand or fall pretty much on its own weight. Bill - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 6:07 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Kevin Deegan wrote: I am sorry, thatI do not fit your little Butter Cup christianity. That is right,I forgot,we are supposed to "prophesy SMOOTH things" I do not want to work thru the things that divide us. I am interested in staying divided heretics on one side christians on the other. Which side are you? The bible never tells us to find what things we have in common with unbelievers. It is not like any of us here do not believe the bible? What have you been reading. Maybe you posted to the wrong group. I will take your email under advisement as far as it is translated correctly. No reproving, nor rebuke, even if the bible says so. It is unbecoming on a Modern christian, right? Philosphy? Nothing to offer? Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. I prefer the bible. maybe you think it has nothing to offer. = Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Judy Taylor wrote: I like these scriptures - all of them and IMO speaking the truth to someone IS loving them even when they don't appreciate it. I someone on the radio quoting Martin Luther who once said "Whenever the devil is challenged he starts weeping and talking about love" judyt A'int no doubt about it. There is a time for just about everything; truth , love, reproof, correction. I just look at verbal stoning as a last resort. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Maybe if they are doing it at all, Peter and Paul are doing just what Terry suggested. Maybe they are"using verbal stoning as a last resort." Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 3:51 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone Is that what you would call what goes on here Terry? I know Kevin's style (and mine at times) is kind of cut and dried but I have come to appreciate the time he puts into doing his homework and his zeal for God's Word. Going through all that Mormon stuff must be so boring; how does one deal with a situation like this ione in love? Look at how the apostle Paul dealt with a similar situation in Acts 13:10 he said "O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord" Then there was Peter with the newly baptized Simon in Acts 8:22 Peter told him to "Repent of thy wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of thine heart be forgiven thee for I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity" Do you believe that both Peter and Paul were walking in the spirit and in the bond of peace and love here, or were they verbally stoning these people? Judy From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] A'int no doubt about it. There is a time for just about everything; truth , love, reproof, correction. I just look at verbal stoning as a last resort.Terry Judy Taylor wrote:Ilike these scriptures - all of them and IMO speaking the truth to someone IS loving them even when they don't appreciate it. I heard someone on the radio quoting Martin Luther who once said "Whenever the devil is challenged he starts weeping and talking about love" judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Judy Taylor wrote: Is that what you would call what goes on here Terry? I know Kevin's style (and mine at times) is kind of cut and dried but I have come to appreciate the time he puts into doing his homework and his zeal for God's Word. = It's not a you and Kevin thing Judy. The Lord knows that I am no diplomat. I have been guilty of coming down a little hard on those aggrevatin' people who can't see how right I am and how wrong they are. We all do it to some extent. I think that probably Kevin is still learning and still growing ( If he is not there is something wrong) and I think he will learn to be more like Jesus and less like a pharisee as he matures spiritually. What excuse you and I can offer I do not know. I am seventy years old and have been a Christian for twenty-three years now. I should have arrived! All I can offer as an excuse is that the Lord made me plain spoken. If I think I see something wrong, I say so. I do not apologize for that. I just apologize for not doing it in a less offensive manner. You should have heard me when I first started my walk. I made Kevin look like a pussy cat. Stay tuned. One of these days I will be perfect. Hopefully, He will return soon. I am tired of waiting. In the meantime I am looking for a better way than verbal stoning. Been there, done that. Not good. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Look at how the apostle Paul dealt with a similar situation in Acts 13:10 he said "O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord" Then there was Peter with the newly baptized Simon in Acts 8:22 Peter told him to "Repent of thy wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of thine heart be forgiven thee for I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity" Do you believe that both Peter and Paul were walking in the spirit and in the bond of peace and love here, or were they verbally stoning these people? Judy Like I said before, there is a time for everything. This was a time for rebuke, yet Jesus was very kind and patient with the woman at the well and the other woman brought to Him to test HIm. Both adultresses, both guilty, but He did not jump on them or put on a holier than thou face. There is no argument that the Mormons are lost sinners, but I expect sinners to act like sinners, and Kevin seems to expect them to act like saints. You can scream at them all the verses you can think of, but if the Holy Spirit isn't leading the way, you are making enemies instead of converts. That is fitting for someone full of subtilty and mischief, but these guys are not full of mischief. Someone has filled them with bull, and they went for it. It is very tempting to sell them a bridge I own over San Francisco bay. Just kidding, I think we would all do better to pray for them. That's just my opinion. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Terry Clifton wrote: Look at how the apostle Paul dealt with a similar situation in Acts 13:10 he said "O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord" Then there was Peter with the newly baptized Simon in Acts 8:22 Peter told him to "Repent of thy wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of thine heart be forgiven thee for I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity" Do you believe that both Peter and Paul were walking in the spirit and in the bond of peace and love here, or were they verbally stoning these people? Judy Like I said before, there is a time for everything. This was a time for rebuke, yet Jesus was very kind and patient with the woman at the well and the other woman brought to Him to test HIm. Both adultresses, both guilty, but He did not jump on them or put on a holier than thou face. There is no argument that the Mormons are lost sinners, DAVEH: Sinners.yes. Lost?.Can one be lost if he endures to the end? but I expect sinners to act like sinners, and Kevin seems to expect them to act like saints. You can scream at them all the verses you can think of, but if the Holy Spirit isn't leading the way, you are making enemies instead of converts. DAVEH: Have you considered the HS may not find what you are offering the direction the HS wants to lead. That is fitting for someone full of subtilty and mischief, but these guys are not full of mischief. Someone has filled them with bull, and they went for it. It is very tempting to sell them a bridge I own over San Francisco bay. Just kidding, I think we would all do better to pray for them. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your conclusions, but I appreciate your prayerful concerns Terry. That's just my opinion. Terry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
WT says I for one can attest to the fact See Blaine you need to listen up we have 2 witnesses here William Lance"Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Lance, welcome to the neighborhood. I like what Torrance says. I for one can attest to the fact that it is trulyintimes of deep conflict that I become most aware of my beliefs. It is also in these times that I find out whether I have consistently thought through my beliefs -- that is, are they consistent enough to withstand the scrutiny of crisis? I do not like these times. Sometimes they make me aware of things I didn't even know I believed; sometimes they force me to change my mind. But I have found this to be true: each time I come through crisis, I am made aware that I have been made stronger; and without hesitation I say that through each crisis, God remains faithful. I am closer to him for it. I look forward to hearing from you often. Thanks for the post. And I think you are asking the right question. Do you care to weigh inon where you stand? Bill - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 8:42 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone The deepest questions are those which penetrate to our ultimate assumptions or beliefs and which exercise a regulative control over our knowledge in any sphere. These are questions as to the framework of thought with which we operate and, from which we put our questions. They are questions as to the hidden preconceptions of which we may not be properly aware. We all operate with regulative beliefs of this kind which are tacit and informal. They are not normally noticed and they operate axiomatically in our interpretive framework. Their power over us is in proportion to the fact that they are tacit and they are axiomatically held. BUT WHENEVER A CRISIS ARRIVES, whenever deep conflicts in opposing frameworks of thought arise, then our unconscious assumptions, our latent beliefs, are suddenly thrust to the surface and we are forced to think them out. UNLESS WE BELIEVE WE WILL NOT UNDERSTAND and it's only if we believe that we will understand. There is no understanding without the commitment of the mind to objective reality and to its natural or intrinsic intelligibility. (TFTorrance) Indeed, what nature did Christ assume at His Incarnation? Lance Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
I am sorry, thatI do not fit your little Butter Cup christianity. That is right,I forgot,we are supposed to "prophesy SMOOTH things" I do not want to work thru the things that divide us. I am interested in staying divided heretics on one side christians on the other. Which side are you? The bible never tells us to find what things we have in common with unbelievers. It is not like any of us here do not believe the bible? What have you been reading. Maybe you posted to the wrong group. I will take your email under advisement as far as it is translated correctly. No reproving, nor rebuke, even if the bible says so. It is unbecoming on a Modern christian, right? Philosphy? Nothing to offer? Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. I prefer the bible. maybe you think it has nothing to offer. By the way how did you become a christian or are you still working on it?"Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin, If I am off base on what I'm about to say, please get me back on. But you need to cool it. When new people sign up to our little e-community, they come because they see that this is also a site for the discussion of science and philosophy. This is how I blundered into this. I thought it was a forum broad enough and opened enough to maybe begin to work through the things that divide us. It's not really like any of us here do not believe the Bible! The way you and others have treated Lance's first input is rude and unbecoming of Christians. You should be ashamed of yourself. If you think these other disciplines have nothing to offer Christians, then say it in a way that truly represents the heart of our Lord. First, however, maybe it would be better to just be still and read what Lance brought to the discussion. Whether we are right or wrong in what we believe,we can all learn a great deal from it. When you identify yourself as aChristian, you'venamed yourself with the name of our Lord. You need to either change your name, or start acting like you believe it has some meaning. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 6:31 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone WT says I for one can attest to the fact See Blaine you need to listen up we have 2 witnesses here William Lance"Wm. Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Lance, welcome to the neighborhood. I like what Torrance says. I for one can attest to the fact that it is trulyintimes of deep conflict that I become most aware of my beliefs. It is also in these times that I find out whether I have consistently thought through my beliefs -- that is, are they consistent enough to withstand the scrutiny of crisis? I do not like these times. Sometimes they make me aware of things I didn't even know I believed; sometimes they force me to change my mind. But I have found this to be true: each time I come through crisis, I am made aware that I have been made stronger; and without hesitation I say that through each crisis, God remains faithful. I am closer to him for it. I look forward to hearing from you often. Thanks for the post. And I think you are asking the right question. Do you care to weigh inon where you stand? Bill - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 8:42 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone The deepest questions are those which penetrate to our ultimate assumptions or beliefs and which exercise a regulative control over our knowledge in any sphere. These are questions as to the framework of thought with which we operate and, from which we put our questions. They are questions as to the hidden preconceptions of which we may not be properly aware. We all operate with regulative beliefs of this kind which are tacit and informal. They are not normally noticed and they operate axiomatically in our interpretive framework. Their power over us is in proportion to the fact that they are tacit and they are axiomatically held. BUT WHENEVER A CRISIS ARRIVES, whenever deep conflicts in opposing frameworks of thought arise, then our unconscious assumptions, our latent beliefs, are suddenly thrust to the surface and we are forced to think them out. UNLESS WE BELIEVE WE WILL NOT UNDERSTAND and it's only if we believe that we will understand. There is no understanding without the commitment of the mind to objective reality and to its natural or intrinsic intelligibility. (TFTorrance) Indeed, what nature did Christ assume at His Incarnation? Lance Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
HUH ?? vincent j fulton On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:42:38 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The deepest questions are those which penetrate to our ultimate assumptions or beliefs and which exercise a regulative control over our knowledge in any sphere. These are questions as to the framework of thought with which we operate and, from which we put our questions. They are questions as to the hidden preconceptions of which we may not be properly aware. We all operate with regulative beliefs of this kind which are tacit and informal. They are not normally noticed and they operate axiomatically in our interpretive framework. Their power over us is in proportion to the fact that they are tacit and they are axiomatically held. BUT WHENEVER A CRISIS ARRIVES, whenever deep conflicts in opposing frameworks of thought arise, then our unconscious assumptions, our latent beliefs, are suddenly thrust to the surface and we are forced to think them out. UNLESS WE BELIEVE WE WILL NOT UNDERSTAND and it's only if we believe that we will understand. There is no understanding without the commitment of the mind to objective reality and to its natural or intrinsic intelligibility. (TFTorrance) Indeed, what nature did Christ assume at His Incarnation? Lance 11_confused.gif
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
what nature did Christ assume at His Incarnation? Lance He took on the form of a man He was still fully God He took on a human nature NOT a SIN nature.ce Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The deepest questions are those which penetrate to our ultimate assumptions or beliefs and which exercise a regulative control over our knowledge in any sphere. These are questions as to the framework of thought with which we operate and, from which we put our questions. They are questions as to the hidden preconceptions of which we may not be properly aware. We all operate with regulative beliefs of this kind which are tacit and informal. They are not normally noticed and they operate axiomatically in our interpretive framework. Their power over us is in proportion to the fact that they are tacit and they are axiomatically held. BUT WHENEVER A CRISIS ARRIVES, whenever deep conflicts in opposing frameworks of thought arise, then our unconscious assumptions, our latent beliefs, are suddenly thrust to the surface and we are forced to think them out. UNLESS WE BELIEVE WE WILL NOT UNDERSTAND and it's only if we believe that we will understand. There is no understanding without the commitment of the mind to objective reality and to its natural or intrinsic intelligibility. (TFTorrance) Indeed, what nature did Christ assume at His Incarnation? Lance Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster.
Re: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone
Hi Lance, welcome to the neighborhood. I like what Torrance says. I for one can attest to the fact that it is trulyintimes of deep conflict that I become most aware of my beliefs. It is also in these times that I find out whether I have consistently thought through my beliefs -- that is, are they consistent enough to withstand the scrutiny of crisis? I do not like these times. Sometimes they make me aware of things I didn't even know I believed; sometimes they force me to change my mind. But I have found this to be true: each time I come through crisis, I am made aware that I have been made stronger; and without hesitation I say that through each crisis, God remains faithful. I am closer to him for it. I look forward to hearing from you often. Thanks for the post. And I think you are asking the right question. Do you care to weigh inon where you stand? Bill - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 8:42 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Questions set the tone The deepest questions are those which penetrate to our ultimate assumptions or beliefs and which exercise a regulative control over our knowledge in any sphere. These are questions as to the framework of thought with which we operate and, from which we put our questions. They are questions as to the hidden preconceptions of which we may not be properly aware. We all operate with regulative beliefs of this kind which are tacit and informal. They are not normally noticed and they operate axiomatically in our interpretive framework. Their power over us is in proportion to the fact that they are tacit and they are axiomatically held. BUT WHENEVER A CRISIS ARRIVES, whenever deep conflicts in opposing frameworks of thought arise, then our unconscious assumptions, our latent beliefs, are suddenly thrust to the surface and we are forced to think them out. UNLESS WE BELIEVE WE WILL NOT UNDERSTAND and it's only if we believe that we will understand. There is no understanding without the commitment of the mind to objective reality and to its natural or intrinsic intelligibility. (TFTorrance) Indeed, what nature did Christ assume at His Incarnation? Lance
