Re: [U2] Why Pick U2?

[Daniel McGrath]

Thanks for the reply Rob,

As to cherry picking, I wasn't calling out anyone in particular, but the thread 
in general. I believe some of our disagreement involves around the statement 
"MongoDB, which falls into the same class of database as U2.": MongoDB is *not* 
an enterprise class database. As per Charles Shaffer post, would you honestly 
use MongoDB for his system? I wouldn't. You would either go with a major SQL DB 
or an MVDB (such as a U2 system). As I and others have noted, U2 gives you a 
unique value proposition in that it generally has faster change turn-around,  
cheaper associated costs and stability of platform (it will still be fine in 20 
years without major architectural changes). MongoDB just doesn't fit into this 
realm. It isn't enterprise class; it doesn't have the maturity to provide the 
guarantees needed in serious enterprise systems, even if only for the mere fact 
it hasn't been around long enough to prove it. As to FourSquare, please re-note 
the link to FS's 11 hour outage caused by MongoDB as an actual example. Can you 
imagine Bank of America having an 11 hour outage on all money transactions and 
how much money/customers they would lose? People have been conditioned to 
accept website outages from time to time. No-one is going to die because FS is 
down for a day. Other things in life are not forgiven/forgotten so easily. 
Emergency systems run on U2. I would consider myself insanely negligent if I 
convinced those emergency services to drop U2 and replace it with an immature 
(even if exciting) database such as MongoDB.

I cannot really comment on your issues with UniData, not knowing when or what 
they were. We ran UD at a Bank and out of our 20+ systems (most on MS SQL) it 
was by far the most stable with the least down time. It had to be, lest it put 
us out of business. 

U2 does not (and cannot) target EVERY market out there. Comparing it to other 
databases outside of the its core markets and saying "MongoDB destroys U2 in 
every single aspect.  And it's free" (http://goo.gl/7O5Hm) is a catchy, yet 
ultimately flawed statement.

I don't think anyone would argue that 'Big Blue' and 'Agile'  are the wine and 
cheese combination of the tech world. Please remember that U2 is now Rocket U2, 
not IBM U2. Rocket Software is an amazingly agile company in comparison. How 
long did it take them to release DataVu? Also remember that in the "company 
scale" of time U2 hasn't been with Rocket for that long. Take into account ramp 
up time for a new working environment, complete office move, rebranding of all 
products and documentation when determining how sluggish U2 is. Expect more 
developments to come out quicker. There are some exciting changes coming down 
the pipes that will address some of the issues people have raised in this 
thread.

UniObjects (COM) is an ancient interface. Don't forgot that there is now EDA, a 
SOAP-based web-service provider and a RESTful web-service provider (in beta).

Better resources: more is coming. U2DevZone is up, it is now open (no sign in 
required anymore) with articles, video tutorials and podcasts. You can take 
this as a solid indication that the folks here are committed to providing 
material that makes U2 a more attractive option.

Yes, times are interesting in the database world right now. There has not been 
this much attention and diversity for as long as I can remember. I'd love to 
see you (and everyone else) at U2U next year, meet some of management & 
engineering and see what is happening in the U2/MV world and maybe even provide 
some insight into what keeps you interested in the MV world and what doesn't. 
Obviously there is something in there that interests your technical mind for 
you still to be posting on this list. :)

Cheers,
Dan

PS: Thanks also to all those that sent direct replies to me. If I haven't got 
back to you yet, I will endeavor to do so next week. 

-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rob Sobers
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:41 PM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2?

Hey Dan,

Great response! Thanks for chiming in.  Let me address some of your points.

"Cherry-picking individual features from one database to compare them, then 
cherry-picking from completely different database when counter-points are 
raised is not exactly a technically sound (or fair) way to do comparisons."

You're certainly right, but that's not I'm doing.  I believe the only direct 
feature comparison I made was to MongoDB, which falls into the same class of 
database as U2.

Besides, the discussion isn't purely about technical capabilities (though they 
certainly matter and U2 has been sluggish with new feature development) as much 
as it is about the overall value proposition.

I'm not trying to be a troll, or incite the folks that love U2, or call out 
Rocket.  As a long-time U2 user, I'm simply making an honest and blunt 
sta

Re: [U2] JSON

[Kevin King]

And those kinds of relationships (as Rex pointed out) can be a beautiful
thing.
___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users

Re: [U2] IDEs

[Tony Gravagno]

> From: Steve Romanow
> Real IDE's are necessary for some projects like java 
> and (also java, Droid) development since it helps with 
> packaging and whatnot.  That really doesnt seem 
> necessary for an mv app.
> 
> I'll stick to my old school vim, mercurial, and ssh.

I remember Linux guys saying the same thing about 12 years ago,
but these days they're using IDEs with build and version control,
code completion, inline help, refactoring, and everything else
expected in modern development.  Technically, no IDE is
"necessary" for any kind of development, whether Java, .NET, or
MV.  We can use NotePad and the command-line for any of them.
But an IDE is helpful - which is why companies create and charge
for them.

If you look at Visual Studio, it has an integrated database
explorer where you specify a connection string and it renders the
database in a tree along with stored procedures and all
associated metadata.  That integration allows the developer to
open and modify data, schema, code in one place, and to drag n
drop data into forms for instant control binding.  mv.NET does
something like this within VS but that component is more of an
add-in than true integration.  (Disclaimer, Nebula R&D is a
Distributor for mv.NET.)  Some months ago I wrote a database
explorer provider for VS so that I can see my MV environments in
that explorer, as first-class citizens right along with SQL
Server and Oracle.  I didn't publish anything about this because
it wasn't suitable for publication and I didn't port it to
VS2010, but maybe one of these days...  The point here is that
other environments have IDE integration because there is
perceived value - a .NET developer would never go to NotePad
after using Visual Studio, and Java developers wouldn't go back
to vi either.  I think MV people don't perceive value in MV/IDE
integration, in large part as a self defense mechanism because we
don't have the tools.  But I think when given the opportunity,
people would jump to true integration rather than having to
manually setup a VCS here, with schema maintenance done in a
separate SSH window there, and help from the PDF over there.

BTW, if you've ever seen mvToolbox (no affiliation) you'd get an
idea of what a REAL IDE for MV can be like.  That thing has
hundreds of features that every MV developer can use.  It's
simply amazing.

T

___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users

Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Steve Romanow]

Neat.  They have a community edition too.  Their charm product has a good
rep.
On Jul 15, 2011 4:24 PM, "Symeon Breen"  wrote:
___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users

Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Symeon Breen]

Re your Miscellaneous - eclipse may well be the recommended and i followed
that course last year when i started droid apps, but intelij IDEA, the
leading java ide, now does android out of the box, i have switched, and am
much happier :)




-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno
Sent: 15 July 2011 19:29
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

> From: Steve Romanow
> When i look at an eclipse application I see 80% ui 
> that is not relevant to the task at hand.  I agree 
> that it and most every app implemented with it are 
> trash.

I agree with the first sentence that Eclipse is bloated, but
"most every app implemented with it are trash" ??  That's
unreasonable, as the IDE doesn't relate to the skills of the
developer, nor the end-product, unless the IDE inherently
precludes specific language/framework features from being used.

Miscellaneous: Eclipse is now the recommended platform for
Android apps and thus has attracted a new following.  Personally
I use NetBeans for both Java and PHP simply because it's
convenient (and VS for .NET).  It would be nice if we had more
options for MV-oriented development using mainstream tools.
There aren't enough companies building in such integration, and
not enough adoption in this market to make it worth it for more
companies to step up to the challenge.

T

___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3766 - Release Date: 07/15/11

___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users

[U2] LIST TO DELIM on Windows

[Bill Haskett]

Of course, Wally is correct and I shouldn't have made such a blanket
statement. Shame on me! :-(

Bill


 Original Message 
Subject:RE: LIST TO DELIM on Windows
Date:   Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:59:50 +
From:   Wally Terhune 
To: Bill Haskett 



I’m pretty buried in other stuff at the moment.

It would be helpful if you created a small account and added the file
with the 1 record, the dict, the test BP. Nothing obvious jumps out at me.

I was mostly reacting to the blanket statement about ‘would be nice if
TO DELIM worked’

As you have indicated -- it does work just fine for most queries.

*/Wally Terhune/*

*U2 Support Architect*

*Rocket Software*

4600 South Ulster Street, Suite 1100 · Denver, CO 80237 · USA

Tel: +1.720.475.8055

Email: wterh...@rs.com 

Web: www.rocketsoftware.com/u2 

[snipped]


___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users

Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Steve Romanow]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Tony Gravagno <3xk547...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>> From: Steve Romanow
>> When i look at an eclipse application I see 80% ui
>> that is not relevant to the task at hand.  I agree
>> that it and most every app implemented with it are
>> trash.
>
> I agree with the first sentence that Eclipse is bloated, but
> "most every app implemented with it are trash" ??  That's
> unreasonable, as the IDE doesn't relate to the skills of the
> developer, nor the end-product, unless the IDE inherently
> precludes specific language/framework features from being used.
>
> Miscellaneous: Eclipse is now the recommended platform for
> Android apps and thus has attracted a new following.  Personally
> I use NetBeans for both Java and PHP simply because it's
> convenient (and VS for .NET).  It would be nice if we had more
> options for MV-oriented development using mainstream tools.
> There aren't enough companies building in such integration, and
> not enough adoption in this market to make it worth it for more
> companies to step up to the challenge.
>
> T
>
> ___
> U2-Users mailing list
> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>

That was a trollish unreasonable statement.  I apologize.  I think a
more appropriate statement would be:

overwhelmed by eclipses gargantuan size, and underwhelmed by the
applications presented.

Does it bother anyone that all of the Rocket provided eclipse apps
come with their own static copy of eclipse?

I mean the editor in BDT, is it "that" great of an editor, besides
being graphical and has syntax hilighting?

Real IDE's are necessary for some projects like java and (also java,
Droid) development since it helps with packaging and whatnot.  That
really doesnt seem necessary for an mv app.

I'll stick to my old school vim, mercurial, and ssh.
___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users

Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Tony Gravagno]

> From: Steve Romanow
> When i look at an eclipse application I see 80% ui 
> that is not relevant to the task at hand.  I agree 
> that it and most every app implemented with it are 
> trash.

I agree with the first sentence that Eclipse is bloated, but
"most every app implemented with it are trash" ??  That's
unreasonable, as the IDE doesn't relate to the skills of the
developer, nor the end-product, unless the IDE inherently
precludes specific language/framework features from being used.

Miscellaneous: Eclipse is now the recommended platform for
Android apps and thus has attracted a new following.  Personally
I use NetBeans for both Java and PHP simply because it's
convenient (and VS for .NET).  It would be nice if we had more
options for MV-oriented development using mainstream tools.
There aren't enough companies building in such integration, and
not enough adoption in this market to make it worth it for more
companies to step up to the challenge.

T

___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users

Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Charles_Shaffer]

Bill
>> But, obviously, not technology to a technologist!  :-)

It was a hard lesson to learn.

Charles Shaffer
Senior Analyst
NTN-Bower Corporation
___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users

Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Bill Haskett]

Charles:

But, obviously, not technology to a technologist!  :-)

Bill


- Original Message -
*From:* charles_shaf...@ntn-bower.com
*To:* U2 Users List 
*Date:* 7/15/2011 6:53 AM
*Subject:* Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[snipped]

I'm a system developer and an MBA so believe this.  Value and reliability
mean money and that trumps everything in business.

Charles Shaffer
Senior Analyst
NTN-Bower Corporation

___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users

Re: [U2] JSON

[Rex Gozar]

George,

Individual MV's are pretty simple, but associated MV's can get interesting:

{
"idCode": "178",
"cusName": "U2Logic",
"contacts": [
{
"name": "David Aitken",
"cellPhone": "303-555-1234"
},
{
"name": "Doug Averch",
"cellPhone": "303-555-6728"
},
{
"name": "Carmen Electra",
"cellPhone": "303-555-7726"
}
]
}

rex
___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users

Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Charles_Shaffer]

I had to work with a PICK type database for a while to see the advantages 
over flat relational.  The bottom line for me is the data structures. What 
you have is the ability to start a list from a data item on the fly.   It 
took me some time to get familiar enough with the tool to realize how 
useful it is.  It fits well with the object oriented approach of 
javascript and JSON is the ideal format for data exchange.  Whether or not 
a system designer can take advantage of the tool depends on them. 

But more important is the reliability.  Here, we have our MRP system on 
Unidata.  We also have many other windows servers, a variety of databases, 
etc.  Our MRP system does more work than any other server we have, and it 
is as solid as a rock.  It's the system we never have a problem with.  If 
the MRP system goes down we are on our knees.  If it is down very long we 
shutdown.  It's never happened.  .  Reliability is key to us.  We push 
close to one million dollara a day out of our doors, if we shutdown or 
even slowdown, we are losing major dollars.  Our Unidata base MRP system 
provides more value than any other system we have

I'm a system developer and an MBA so believe this.  Value and reliability 
mean money and that trumps everything in business.

Charles Shaffer
Senior Analyst
NTN-Bower Corporation
___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users

Re: [U2] JSON

[Doug Averch]

The reason for nesting them is that there maybe subvalues or text marks or
item marks.  That way the syntax of using them does not have to change in
JavaScript except to add another array position.

Regards,
Doug
www.u2logic.com
"Makers of the 3 click resizer"
___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users

Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Rob Sobers]

"It's the least worst response to a bad situation - not having
business logic close to the database. It's more to test, develop, deploy and
change control. And to be successful it still needs to call stored
procedures at the back end.And to be successful it still needs to call
stored procedures at the back end."

Really?  I've worked on lots of successful products that didn't use stored
procedures at the back end.

Again, it doesn't matter where the code is *physically*.  What is this
"close to the database" catch phrase *really* mean anyway?  Are you talking
about speed?  I have to image you see some benefit, because IMHO you're
giving up a lot of flexibility by writing your business rules in stored
procedure languages like UniBasic and TSQL.  I'd also argue that having code
live with the database can make the application as a whole far less portable
as you scatter code around.  More moving parts is generally a bad thing.

Yes, you should tier your code and keep your business logic separate from
your presentation layer, but that doesn't mean it literally needs to be in a
stored procedure.  Look at the MVC pattern in Rails or ASP.NET MVC, for
instance.  In those frameworks, all of the business logic lives in model
classes in the main application, not the database.  It works really well --
if it didn't, people would break that mold and start putting code in sprocs.

-Rob

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Brian Leach  wrote:

> I've missed this discussion because I've been busy designing a website and
> app for a client.
>
> This being the real world, the site will eventually - of course - be
> delivered using SQL Server and C#, with the front end using AJAX calls to
> JSON services delivered through WCF. Which will no doubt take an age to
> develop, test, deploy and then reconfigure all over all again.
>
> So before getting to that stage, I've written a fully functioning
> prototype.
> Which is - of course - written in UniVerse and mvScript. Which means I've
> developed it all front to back in a few hours and it's robust and flexible
> enough that I can work through it sitting with the clients tomorrow and
> make
> changes in near real time as they come up with ideas.
>
> Which tells the story, in one, of what I do and don't like about U2.
>
>
> As to some of the other points:
>
> 1. Someone mentioned SQL Server and the GUI word again. Please ... SQL
> Server has no UI. If you're coding a UI for SQL server you use C#. If
> you're
> coding a UI for U2 you can use C#. If you're coding business rules for SQL
> Server you can use SQL Manager. If you're coding business rules for U2 you
> can use BDT or mvDeveloper. It's a red herring.
>
> 2. The other thread has been talking about locking. If there's one reason
> to
> use U2 over all else, it's pessimistic locking. The SQL world is full of
> script kiddies and wizard users who *think* they know SQL and don't have
> the
> first idea about concurrency, locking and merging.
>
> 3. Yes, we now have CLR in SQL server, but how many SQL developers are
> actually using it? The initial push to add it was a horrible cludge and put
> off many of those who might have experimented, and for the rest of the
> community it's too alien. I think we'll see TSQL as the main language for
> back end work for a long, long time - and that doesn't begin to measure up
> to UniBasic. (but read on before you jump on this...)
>
> 4. Having middle tier logic may be the norm but that does not mean it a
> good
> idea. It's the least worst response to a bad situation - not having
> business
> logic close to the database. It's more to test, develop, deploy and change
> control. And to be successful it still needs to call stored procedures at
> the back end.
>
> 5. But if you really want a middle tier, you can still add one and use C#
> and it's 'proper libraries' with U2. If you really, really want.
>
> 6. And either way, not having to stare at query optimizer output is a very
> good reason to like U2.
>
> BUT
>
> That doesn't mean U2 can't be improved by taking on some of the better
> features of the outside world.
>
> The indexing is still very primitive, the SQL support is weak, and it would
> be great to have some other languages built into the database runtime. Even
> java -  - would be better than nothing, and would provide those
> 'missing' OO and library features that people think they want.
>
> Add OpenQM's version of objects into Basic while you're at it and make the
> Basic on the two products more similar. It's just a pain having to use two
> sets of syntax: Rocket could easily create a superset on both.
>
> Nowadays you can at least integrate the query and Basic language by using
> SQLExecute() function calls to @HSTMT - something that was always missing
> from the original Pick model. But it's not obvious and doesn't work from
> phantoms.
>
> For the client side, we need javascript bindings made easy - especially to
> JSON - as that is the most important language for new developers

Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Symeon Breen]

RE Eclipse 

Just about every programmer i know has eclipse installed.
Just about every .net programmer i know uses VS for their development
Just about every Java programmer i know use IntelJ IDEA for their
development
Just about every php programmer i lknow uses a php specific ide - there are
numerous

In fact i don't know of any programmer who uses eclipse as their main dev
environment. Sure they all have it installed, and use it occasionally  if
they want to delve into some language or something that they don't normally
use, but they all feel it tries to cater for everybody, but in so doing ends
up being a horrible cludge and nowhere near as effective as the top domain
specific ide's

I don't think Brian, or anyone, is suggesting we use AE/ED, but there should
be some great plugins into some other IDE's out there - or even a better
domain specific IDE not based on eclipse.



-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch
Sent: 14 July 2011 23:11
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

Hi Brian:

Microsoft now has a plug-in for Eclipse see
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg413285.aspx.  Eclipse just
released version 3.7 around June 22nd and they have had a million plus
downloads.  They released 62 projects with over 46 million lines of code
see http://www.eclipse.org/org/press-release/20110622indigo.php.

Eclipse is one of the premier IDE's out in the world.  Do want to teach
people to use ED/AE to create files, edit dictionaries, and edit code all in
that pretty wrapper called Telnet?  Or do you want to show them a MS based
editor that only does that?  Sorry, your free product does not cut the
mustard here.

We need to teach the young people coming into U2 world to use the finest
tool that allows continuous compiling, templates, outlines, bookmarks,
version control, copying and pasting data, listing files, and searching all
within a single IDE to name just a few functions.  Whether the Eclipse IDE
is from U2logic or Rocket Software there is no other tools on the market
that can compare feature to feature.

We know you can do all of the above with wrappers, amazing VOC items, and
scripts, but we must have time warped back to 1990's because we don't really
need to explain these to a newbie.  Those newbie's think we are just a bunch
of old men and old women.  We know we are the best so lets look like with
our state of the art tools.

Regards,
Doug
www.u2logic.com
"Version control for the rest of us using Eclipse"


> >
> > And get rid of Eclipse. It's horrible.
> >
>
___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3764 - Release Date: 07/14/11

___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users